Let's Go To Court! - 73: Brock Turner & The Boy Who Thought He Pulled Off the Perfect Murder

Episode Date: June 12, 2019

We’re launching a Patreon! You can support the show by joining the district, appellate, or the SUPREME COURT! Either, way, we guarantee you’ll be as happy as a juvenile bigfoot prancing through the woods. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming: Shirley Kopitske was concerned. It had been days since she’d heard from her adult son, Glenn. When she drove to his house to check on him, she discovered a horrifying scene. Glenn was dead, and had been for some time. An investigation would reveal that he’d been shot and stabbed. Initially, investigators weren’t sure who would commit such a heinous crime. But months went by, and a bold, unashamed suspect emerged. He blabbed his motive all over town. But when his trial rolled around, he changed his tune. Then, Emily Doe woke up in a hospital room with pine needles in her hair and blood on her hands and elbows. She had bruises on her body. Her underwear was missing. She remembered going to a party at Stanford University with her sister the night before, but after that, her memory went blank. Weeks later, she was at work when she came across an article about her attack. She learned that two Swedish exchange students were biking through campus when they spotted a man and woman behind a dumpster. It didn’t take them long to realize that the man was thrusting on top of an unconscious woman. They yelled at him. He ran, but they caught him and pinned him to the ground. Emily’s attacker was 19-year-old Brock Turner.  And since this is apparently sooo important, you should probably know that he was a great swimmer.  And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “People v. Turner,” wikipedia “Brock Turner Wanted Only Outercourse, Lawyer Argues in Appeal,” by Daniel Victor for The New York Times Victim impact statement “Father of student convicted of rape: Steep price for ‘20 minutes of action,” by Alexandra Samuels for USA Today “Brock Turner’s mommy calls cops as protesters swarm house,” by Lindsay Putnam for the New York Post “Brock Turner case goes to jury,” by Sue Dremann for the Palo Alto Weekly “Stanford swimmer denies alleged rape in police report,” by Elena Kadvany for the Palo Alto Weekly  In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Gary Hirte and the Perfect Murder” by Seamus McGraw, The Crime Library “All-American Thrill Killer” by Seamus McGraw, Stuff Magazine “Murder of Glenn Kopitske” wikipedia.org

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about brock turner and i'll be talking about the boy

who thought he pulled off the perfect murder but first big announcement hot announcement this is big this is big i'm nervous about this okay people been asking we've had so many people asking for this. It's finally here. A million dollars to every listener. No. We have launched. A Patreon. A Patreon. Yay. First of all, thank you to everyone who's asked about this because the idea that anyone

would want to support us. Is all. Yeah. I mean, blows our minds. Yeah. But we've had people asking for a long time now like how do we donate to the show please start a patreon let us support you so i mean fine fine you guys we don't want it but we'll do it no so we we're super excited um oh shit I logged out of Patreon. Damn it! Hey. Hey.

Here we go. I'm back in. We have a bunch of fun tiers set up. We're really excited about it. Do you want to talk about it? No, you take it away, Kristen. If you would like to support us on Patreon, thank you very much. You can enter at one of three levels.

We've got the district court level, the appellate court level, and the Supreme Court! Quickly, we'll just go through. For the district court, if you donate $2 a month, you can vote on episode topics and you'll get access to patron-exclusive posts about case updates, which obviously will be provided by Brandy.

Yeah, Kristen's not filling us in on those, guys. If you want to join the appellate court, that's $5 per month. And then you get to join the Discord to talk about you know... Well, you know, whatever. You know, Bob Moss,

Juvenile Bigfoot, you know, whatever strikes your fancy. Whatever you need to talk about. That's right. If you're wondering what to do with that bed bath and beyond bag kristen's got some pointers for you well really only one suggestion and then so this is the exciting thing to me yes if we get one no when when we get when we get 100 patrons that's at any level 100 patrons total then members of the Appellate Court and the Supreme Court will get to access an exclusive monthly bonus episode. And this will not be some bullshit little episode.

That's right. It'll be a full-length episode. And it'll be amazing. Probably our best work yet. And then on to the Supreme Court Supreme Court judges get a let's go to court sticker which

they're so cool they're really cool they're really cool Casey made them for us they're awesome yeah thank you Casey they were so excited with how they turned out

yes also once you sign up as a Supreme Court judge at the end of the next episode, we will do a little induction where we induct, you know. The new Supreme Court justices. It's a one-time shout out, people. That's right. Don't get greedy.

And then you can submit questions to maybe be answered on an upcoming episode. So I don't know who could turn that down. I know. So we would love for you to join us. We'll put links. Where were we going to put links? I don't know. You know, on that social media stuff that we do.

Facebook, Instagram, Twitter. You know, all those places. Or, you know, you can just... Sorry. Do you have sausage brunch stuck in your throat? I'm sorry, that's disgusting. So I made sausage brunch stuck in your throat? I'm sorry. That's disgusting. So I made sausage brunch for Brandy

and like we just had a ton of sausage brunch. We just chowed down on sausage brunch. And my sister Kyla put the recipe up on Facebook and everything but it's like

I mean there's cheese there's sausage it's I mean delicious. And now like you me and Norman are all like... Because we're clogged up.

Got that sausage brunch stuck in my throat. But we're happy about it. That's an alternate title to that 80s porno. All right. I hope you guys are as excited about our Patreon as we are. We're really excited to launch this. Yeah, we've been thinking about it for a really, really long time. And we've been weirdly nervous about it.

We've been super weird about it. But enough people have asked that we were like, all right, we'll do it. Give the people what they want. That's my motto. Yeah. Are you ready? Well, yeah. You.

Oh, OK. OK. Since. OK. So the other day I text you and I said I had this horrible dream last night that we got in this huge fight and that we ended the podcast. And so but I wouldn't tell you about it. So I'll tell you about it now because we just made the Patreon announcement, which is linked to this dream. So you and Norm lived in this weird apartment building and i had come to visit you and we were talking about launching the patreon

and you were like i think that the proper way to announce it is with a parade i stand by it i think we have to throw a parade and i I was like, Kristen, I just don't think that makes much sense. I don't think that's either the most cost-effective manner or, you know, I don't think we'll reach enough people through that method. And you were convinced that a parade was the proper route. And we got in this huge fight about it. And ultimately, you were like that's it i don't think you're committed to this podcast you don't want to do a parade we won't do the podcast anymore that's so sad it was so sad but then also hilarious

okay so it was weird because you texted me that. And I had been thinking the same thing. I think it was like a weird, like, Norman was out of town. Yeah. So I was having these weird dark thoughts that I have sometimes. Yes. Like, hey, I'm all alone right now. Let me sit and think about the worst things that could happen to me. And so I was like, Norman could die.

And the podcast could end randy could get mad about something and it was just so sad so then you texted me that yeah and it turns out i'm not the one that got mad kristin you are because clearly a parade is the only option yeah a parade through midtown kansas city yeah that's definitely the only word out about our beach trip. I'll edit that first part out of the show. So in this dream, you guys like stormed out and left. And I'm like left standing in your apartment complex like hallway. It was a weird hallway. It had like this table.

And like all of you just had like just like random shit piled up on this table. And you and Norm left. And I look over and there's like random shit piled up on this table and you and Norm left. And I look over and there's the keys to your apartment sitting on this table. And so go inside. No. So I grabbed them and left and I text you and I was like, listen, I know you're pissed right now and that's fine. I just wanted to let you know that I grabbed your keys so that nobody can get into your apartment. just wanted to let you know that I grabbed your keys so that nobody can get into your apartment and like you like butt dialed me in this dream and you and norm were talking shit about how

paranoid I was that someone's gonna break into your apartment because you just left your keys okay but this dream does make me sad. Don't worry, Kristen. It didn't happen. It did not happen. It's just a dream. It's just a dream. Yeah, it's like that Tim McGraw song. It was just a dream.

No, that's not it. That's not how it goes. How's it go? I don't know. It's the one he did with Nelly, I believe. Oh. Hold on. Now we've got to Google it.

Oh, it's called Over and Over. I don't think there's anything. Did he say anything about a dream? I think you're dreaming. Sorry. No, it's just all in his head. He thinks about it over and over again. He doesn't say anything about it being a dream.

Wow. Oh! What? Thank God we got on a tangent about a ridiculous song. So we talked about last week I sang Solid as a Rock, and you were like, that's not a song. And then we went on a tangent, and I looked up a completely different song

but i would like to tell you that solid as a rock is an actual song uh-huh it is called solid and it is by wait for it ashford and simpson so in your fucking face kristin that still sounds made up to me hang on let me get a pillow for my butt. Okay. You're delicate behind. That's right. That's right. Would you like a pillow for your butt?

I'm all set, thank you. I've got plenty of cushion. Don't brag. Built in. I would also like to tell the listeners that this is another Let's Go to Court After Dark. In case it's not obvious. But this time, instead of vodka with a splash of seltzer, I'm having a beer in a Gaming Historian mug. And it is delicious.

It's the champagne of beers. Yeah, Norman was very excited about sharing his beer with me. Yes, yes. You'd think it was a rare kind of beer that you can't just buy anywhere. That's right. All right, are we ready to talk about some murder? I guess so. I mean, we've had a 37-minute intro now, which we always talk about how we don't do, so.

Yeah, but in the After Dark, oh my my god we've been recording for like 10 minutes the after dark episodes i mean and we had to do the patreon thing and really it's not up to us you know the after dark episodes they just kind of direct themselves it was go on well i was like i'm gonna pause real quick and tell you my source because i forgot but of course Go on. Well, I was like, I'm going to pause real quick and tell you my source because I forgot. But of course it's the crime library. It's always the crime library.

It's never not the crime library. It's never been anything other than the crime library. This article that I pulled most of this information from is by Seamus McGraw, which is maybe my favorite name ever. Seamus? Seamus. Seamus. Looks like Seamus. Pronounced Seamus McGraw, which is maybe my favorite name ever. Seamus? Seamus. Looks like Seamus. Pronounced Seamus. Okay.

It's, you know, Scottish or something. Oh, okay. Maybe Irish. Probably Irish because Sean spelled S-E-A-N as Irish. So Seamus is probably

Irish too. What do you think? It's seen? Yeah. My brain says seen. Yeah, your brain also says colonel. It sure does.

Okay. It was Saturday, August 2nd, 2003. And Shirley Kapitsky was concerned. She hadn't heard from her son, Glenn, in a few days. She hadn't been able to reach him by phone and that was very uncommon. They spoke regularly.

She had been out of town and had come back into town and still had been unable to reach him. So on August 2nd, she decided to go to his house and upon entering his home,

she found his naked body dead oh the back old is he he's an adult male he's was born in 1966 so uh it's 2003 i hope you're not relying on me to do math he was 43 kristin thank you okay you're not yeah you're not confident that's not accurate math that's terrible he's 37 that's terrible math the worst part was seeing the shame on your face yeah he's 37 turns out is that right it doesn't sound right to me but you know i don't know anything yeah because he would be 40 in 2006 if he was born in

66 okay so that's right well well done brandy can you cut the whole part out where i sound like i don't know fucking math anyway so um shirley her son's back door locked, which she said was super unusual. He always kept that door open. They lived in kind of a rural area of Wisconsin, Winnebago County. And so his house was pretty secluded. He wasn't, like, super concerned about his safety. And usually he left that back door unlocked so he could come and go really easily. His mom could stop in and enter through that door.

You know, no big deal. And she also noticed that his car keys were missing. And he always kept his car keys on the sofa table in the creepy hallway right outside his apartment door. That's where everyone keeps their keys. He always kept his car keys on his kitchen table and so she immediately saw that his car keys were not there yeah but his car was there so as i mentioned it's august and it was pretty clear that glenn had been dead for a couple of days by the time his mother discovered him and the summer heat had had an effect on glenn's body so much so that the authorities initially thought

that he had died of natural causes oh wow but during an autopsy on Monday, August 5th, the medical examiner like turned the body over and liquefied brain matter started to come out of the hole in the back of his head. It was only then that they realized that he had been shot in the head. Oh, my God. That is disgusting. Yes, it is is so not only that so he'd been shot in the back of the head they also realized that what had looked like just like kind of advanced decomposition that they thought had been a result of the excessive heat in the house which i i'm guessing it was super hot in August. And I'm guessing that maybe the house was not air conditioned.

Yeah. Because if it was air conditioned, it would have been preserved. But he was in an advanced stage of decomposition. So they discovered that there were actually stab wounds to his back and chest. And that the stab wounds were post-mortem wounds. So they had been inflicted after he was already dead from the gunshot whoa yeah but there was nothing to go on you're kidding me a physical search of the scene turned up no evidence he had to have had some crazy enemy, right?

I don't know. You don't just, okay. I don't know. He lived on, as I mentioned, in kind of a secluded area. A neighbor had, when police were kind of canvassing the area, asking for anybody who'd seen or heard anything, for anybody who'd seen or heard anything. A neighbor said that a few nights before Glenn's body was discovered that he had seen an older car with square headlights and rectangular taillights

driving through the area, flashing a bright light. So this is kind of a dead end road in a rural area. I think I've said rural like 27 times. I apologize. If you didn't get it, he lives in kind of a rural area.

And so... Wait, are you an odontologist? I am. I'm no odontologist, Kristen. And this here is a rural area. But that was the only clue. There was no physical evidence of the scene

and nobody else had seen or heard anything. Why do you think that was? I mean, don't you think there were other cars close by? No, because would you believe it if I told you this was a rural area? Wow, you should have mentioned that. It would be months before investigators knew who had killed Glenn. And it would be even longer until they knew why.

Oh, my gosh. So the news of this murder comes out and the, you know, it's a gruesome crime for a county that boasted like the lowest crime rate in the state of Wisconsin. Okay. You've got a man who has been, who was found naked, shot to death, and then stabbed inside of his home. It was very alarming.

This area of Wisconsin, I think had a population of like 1600. So not a huge area at all. Pretty. Well, I mean, if you ask Norm, pretty big town.

Norm's going to tell you. Pretty big city. Pretty big city. And I'm here to tell you it's a rural area at all pretty well i mean if you ask norm pretty big town norm's gonna tell you pretty big city pretty big city but i'm here to tell you it's a rural area and well i don't know who to believe and so it makes big news and people are of course very concerned that there's a murderer out there and so people are talking about know, what is known about the case. And this boy, Eric, kind of has this flash of a memory of how he and his friend, Gary, his best friend, Gary, had been out to this rural area shining for deer. Just right around that same time that Glenn had been murdered. It was something that they did regularly. They took a big flashlight out. I know what this is.

You do? Well, I dated a redneck for a while. Do you know shining for deer? Yeah. Explain it to us. Okay. This is something I never thought I'd have to bring up. Shining for Deer.

Yeah. I think it's illegal in most places, if not unethical. Yeah. And it's where you go out when it's dark out with a gigantic flashlight. You usually go out to like a field. Yeah.

And you shine the flashlight looking for deer who are out because, you know, they think they're safe. And then once you see one, you shoot it. And it's like, it's unfair hunting. It's not really hunting because you haven't really hunted anything. Yeah. So he was like, want to know what other country facts I know?

I've never seen that level of surprise. I was shocked that you, i had never heard of shining for dear until i moved to north carolina neither had i so this kid eric is like gary and i were out in that area shining for dear like had to have been just a couple nights before this murder would have taken place. Okay. But Eric didn't really give it much of a second thought because Gary was his best friend whom he idolized and thought Gary couldn't be involved in some weird murder of some weirdo guy who lives alone oh no so as i mentioned months went by and nobody said anything and so the police started looking into instead they started looking into glenn kapitsky's background right who would have targeted him like

this wasn't an accidental attack it wasn't a robbery this was a targeted attack he was a specific target on that note i'm gonna grab another pillow yes how many pillows did your ass need yeah okay so we we moved today uh-huh and like my back hurts my butt hurts hurts, just everything hurts. And yet here I am for you, Brandy, because you insisted that we meet up today. I did not! Oh, you're going to wrap up in a blanket too. Are you going to nod off?

Maybe. I'm very tired. Are you going to tell the people about how bad you were? You were like, I can only meet on Thursday. No. Okay. So, no. I will tell you.

I felt like an asshole today because, okay, so we couldn't record at our regular time because I was getting my tattoo finished. And so I text you and I was like, what day should we record this week? And you said, what works for you? And I said, I could come Thursday night after I after I get off work and you said sounds great so then I'm at work today and I'm I'm I was literally standing at the back like my dispensary area mixing up color for a client and I was like holy shit it's June 6th they got the fucking house today because I just like had this flash of Norman in my ear saying you can see the house on June 6th and I was like holy fucking shit they got that house today and so I text you like

immediately and I was like holy shit it's house day what are we doing why are we recording tonight why didn't you say something I'm like I'm such an asshole friend I'm so sorry. And I said, yes, you are. Thank you for finally admitting it. Friendship adjourned. And I suggested an alternate date to record. And you said, nope, I've already got sausage brunch cooking away, ready to go. It's happening. It's happening. We have to

record tonight. And honestly, I really enjoy recording. And it feels like it's been forever since we last saw each other I know because we didn't do we didn't do movie night this week because Norm was out gallivanting around the country

yes and it did it felt like it had been a really long time since we've seen each other and so I didn't want to cancel I didn't want to cancel either but I would

and I if you'll recall if you'll let the record reflect that I didn't say we should cancel I said let's go celebrate and see the house. Yeah, you did say that.

Anyway, I apologize. There's nothing to apologize for. It's a really big deal and I forgot. I mean, we're excited about it, but it's one of those things where we still have to sell this house. So it doesn't feel like a real move yet.

All right. All right. Okay. So keep those tidbits I mentioned about Eric in the back of your mind. He's not suspecting his friend. Yeah. Okay. Gotcha.

But he should suspect his friend, friend clearly because we all know how this goes down okay and so the police start looking into glenn's background as i mentioned this is an area that has a very low crime rate and so police are like you know you look at the typical suspects the family members stuff like that that. There's no one. He wasn't married. He lived alone. His mom was out of town. That's his closest relative.

There's nobody to clear in his family. So what does that leave? You look to somebody. Secret lover. Yeah. You look to somebody who has some secret relationship with him, someone who had some beef with him, something. But they couldn't find anyone. Like, they couldn't find anything. Glenn was a pretty normal guy.

He didn't really have any friends to speak of. He had a dog that he was really close with. Like, maybe too close with. Not, like, gross close. Don't make that face. What do you mean too close? Like, you know, he took his dog everywhere he went and, like, called his dog his best friend.

Okay, okay. Well, a lot of people do that, but when you say too close, I get alarmed. Gross. You think I'm bringing bestiality into our podcast? I mean, maybe. I'm ready. And so they were looking at you know reasons that someone might have selected glenn as a target right maybe it was because he was

so isolated maybe it was because his house was so isolated and it created like the perfect place to do this murder because it was in a rural area um or maybe it was because even though he did live such a solitary life maybe he had a weird kind of um habit of drawing attention to himself so as they were looking into glenn's background they found out that in 1996, he had declared himself a presidential candidate. Oh. Even though at the time he was like 30 years old and you have to be 35. He started campaigning to run for president. Wow. Wow.

Yeah. What was his platform? Well, didn't really find that out, but he was not successful. Well, thank you for that. And he lost the $500 investment he put into that campaign. Well. And instead he set his sights a little bit lower and he started running for state assembly but that didn't work out well and then he tried again um for another assembly seat

a couple years later still no luck but and he really shot for the moon didn't he yeah so his mom says that he didn't really she didn't really think that that stuff was he was really serious about that stuff it was just like some kind of thing he did to you know just say he'd say he'd done it okay um she said it was just an oddball thing he was a well-known eccentric okay so what they did find out was that he was vulnerable. He left his doors unlocked. He lived alone. But that he was a harmless guy. He had never been in any trouble. He'd never created any enemies that they could find.

He was the adopted son of a Midwestern family. And they adopted him after their two biological children died. Oh, no. Yeah, so these poor parents, like, they had two children die. They adopt another child, and then years later, he's murdered. Oh, gosh. That would be terrible. Yeah, I don't know how you go on. I don't either.

But he was super close with his mother. Anytime he was in trouble he immediately went to his mother so his mother was like there's no way that something was going on that i didn't know about he told me everything yeah and so just nothing is looking like he's any kind of anyone that someone would have a vendetta out for or anything like that as his mom said he was kind of eccentric he was in like the community theater and he really enjoyed that and like some people thought that it was kind of odd because he was like the oldest person in the community theater so it's like really aimed

at like teenagers and he was well into his 30s and so i think maybe he got like a little bit of a reputation as maybe like the creepy old guy that comes to the was he doing creepy things no there's no there's you didn't find anything i didn't find anything that says that he was up to anything but it was just that in general, like he was with these, yeah. Yeah. Okay. A much younger crowd. Right.

And his mother said that, honestly, she thought that he did those things because he was lonely. She said, when you live alone and you're 37 years old and you're not married and everyone else is, why wouldn't you be lonely? Oh, I know. It's really sad. Yeah. And the fact that he was dead for at least a couple days before he was found or anyone really noticed that he was gone is kind of a testament to that loneliness. So it was just kind of a sad thing. So the police are getting nowhere with this investigation at all.

And they were like, some kind of break's going to come. Something's going to come. We'll keep putting out this information about the one neighbor has about seeing the car and the shining light. And surely that will spark something. Someone did this. Someone has told someone they did it. Someone will come forward. It would be, like I said, months before that would happen and the police would get any break and the breakthrough didn't come because the police uncovered some new clue or anything like that it came because somebody had bragged about the murder and someone had told their secret to the wrong person so olivia joy thoma i'm guessing or toma i'm not really sure

t-h-o-m-a she is she has been really reluctant to tell parts of her story but ultimately she's the person that came forward to the police and it was after she became suspicious about her friend and some might say boyfriend, Gary. Okay. She says that there's just a lot of details she's not ready to talk about because they are too difficult for her to handle. And so maybe someday she can tell the whole story and how it all happened but it took her a while to come forward to police from the time that Gary start started telling her about something he had done to where she finally felt like she needed to tell someone so in the summer of 2003 so that's when this happened Olivia was 19 and she had become very close with this guy, Gary Hurt. So

Gary was this like really well-liked guy. He was like the star of the football team. He was an Eagle Scout. He was actually the first Eagle Scout in this part of Wisconsin in like like 20 years so it was like a huge deal yeah there's like 12 people who live right it was like a huge deal when he made like eagle scout status he worked at dairy queen like he was this really popular guy everybody liked him including olivia and he was he in high school or he yeah yes so they would have been um she would have been she would have graduated already but he would have been like going into his senior year he's our age okay gary is yeah so he graduated, I believe, in 2004. So this summer, they kind of started up an affair. But Gary was technically dating somebody else at the time, like this 14-year-old girl.

But they started having these heart-to-heart conversations and really getting to know each other and all this. And one night, their conversation took a turn and they both started to swap like their deepest, darkest secrets. And it was during that conversation that he said that he had killed someone. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Can you imagine no like having like a summer love with a guy and like doing that thing where you talk on the phone every night or like you're sitting outside somewhere and he's like yeah yeah yeah what's the worst thing you've ever done killed someone like okay just tonight just tonight we're sitting here eating sausage brunch, and

Norman, you and I were talking about the biggest trouble we ever got into in high school. Which, spoiler alert, it was a really lame conversation. It was super lame. We were all super lame. None of us ever got in any trouble to speak of. I mean, we got in some trouble, but it was like, you know.

None of us murdered anyone. No. And so he admitted that he had killed someone. He said that he had murdered this lonely, eccentric

guy who lived on the edge of town and he'd done it in his own bedroom just to see if he could get away with it holy shit yeah yeah and so she like shit her pants obviously but you can't act she didn't she didn't let on that it had freaked her out and she didn't tell anyone for like a couple of months after that you know what that would be such scary information when you're that age. Yeah. Well, when you're any age. Any age, yeah.

That would be really scary. Yeah. And so around that same time that he's confessing it to Olivia, he also told his best friend Eric. So I don't know exactly how the conversation went, but I think it was something like Eric was like, hey, have you seen the thing on the news about that guy? You know, that's right where kind of we were.

Yeah. Shining for deer that night. Know anything about it? And initially I believe that Gary was like, no, no, no, no, I don't know anything about it. And then later in a phone call, he was like, I did it. Oh, my God. Yeah.

So, yeah. So he said, Eric was like, do you know anything about that murder? Because it was pretty close to, you know, that place we were at. And finally, Gary was like. So Eric suspected him. I did it. Yeah. I think it was just kind of eating away at the back of Eric's mind.

Like, this is a weird coincidence. And finally, Eric's like, what? No, you didn't do it. And he was like, I did. And he like to prove to him, he showed him the knife that he had used. Yeah. And the knife still like he hadn't wiped the blade clean. It still had blood on it and

yeah and he showed it to at least one other person yeah because it's his trophy yeah there er Eric was so, I don't know what the right word is. He idolized Gary so much that even when Gary showed him the knife and showed him the car keys that he took from the table, he didn't believe that he had done it. That he had done it. He said. I. There was nothing he could do.

To convince me that he was telling the truth. The knife was just a knife. That blood could have been any blood. The keys. To me they were just keys. He could not make himself believe. That his best friend. Had done this terrible thing. Wow. He didn't believe he could be capable yeah and then to have no reason other than to say i just wanted i wanted to see

if i could get away with it and it says something about the way that this community saw Gary that no one took him seriously when he talked about the murder. He started bragging about it to a lot of people. And he started showing the knife. And he started showing the keys. And... Was it really that everyone wasn't taking him seriously? You know, I don't really know. I mean, I guess it doesn't have to be just one thing but so this is a question that was kind of asked like as the investigation

progressed like once somebody came forward spoiler alert i think i already said it olivia is the one who's going to come forward to the police what yeah you did and and so um this is something that is kind of asked by investigators like they interrogate eric later and they're like he told you about this why didn't you believe him and he said he likes to brag about things he brags all the time to the point that you don't really believe anything he says wow haven't we all known a person like that though maybe not to this extent no but yeah yeah eventually it was like virtually everyone at the high school where eric and gary attended knew holy what gary was i feel like i've said holy shit like 12 times. What Gary was claiming to have done. And it was like basically he would talk about it during football practice.

He'd talk about it to anyone who would listen. Well, you know what? And why not? Yeah. You've told how many people at this point. Yeah. You've suffered no consequences. Why not?

Initially he tells one girl and one friend and nobody takes it seriously and so he just starts telling everybody i wonder there has to be a part of that that was like okay at some point somebody's gonna have to take this seriously i have to get caught right yeah maybe they're right or i mean i mean i mean well that's just it because like that's the btk thing right they were like when you know if you haven't heard our btk episode basically he started like goading the police into interacting with him and when they finally caught him because he was a fucking idiot they were like didn't you do this because you wanted to be caught and he was like no no i really thought that i was

smarter than you guys yeah so maybe it's not maybe it is maybe you're right maybe it is purely arrogance he really thought he was smarter than everyone and he really had committed the perfect murder i i'm really trying to put myself in that guy's shoes. Yeah. And if I had done, like, the most horrible thing you could do. Yeah. And I started telling people. Yeah. And nobody did anything about it.

I think it might make me feel, especially if I was super young like that, it might make me feel like, well, you know, I can do anything. Yeah. Who's going to stop me? Who's going to stop me me you're probably exactly right yeah because he's what he's he's like 18 18 he's 17 oh yeah yeah yeah well solved it solved it and everyone just thought it was a joke. Another weird lie he told. Another weird brag. That was just bullshit.

But finally, one person began to believe that maybe it was true. Kristen, do you have a guess who that one person is? Well, didn't you already tell us? Olivia was really beginning to believe that Gary was actually telling the truth. They had gotten a lot closer during all of this. And, like, finally she was like, I don't think this is bullshit. I think he's really being serious. And so she said that she, in the beginning, she thinks that she was just in denial, like, oh, it's just another joke.

And then finally, like she started to like kind of half believe it. And then the more details he could give, like the more she really believed it. And then finally, months like in January. So what? Five months have gone by since the murder. She decided she needed to go and talk to the police and the police didn't believe her at first you're kidding me they were like no there's no way some 17 year old kid did this and there's no way he's bragging to anybody who will listen like this guy's

just blowing smoke oh my gosh yeah and then she was able to provide details about the murder that had not been released to the public and they were like who's this guy again what what'd you say his name was and so she did the same thing that brought down the Paul Sorrentino in that case I did about the member of the kid who they took out and made him dig his own grave. Yes, yes, yes. She agreed to get him on the phone and allow them to tape record the conversation. Okay. So she went, she got him on the phone and got him to go through every detail of murder. And by this point, he's bragging to anybody who will listen.

So, of course, he's just dying to talk about it again. But this time, a detective was listening in and recording everything he said. And it was just a few days later that Gary Hurt, the 17-year-old golden boy, was called to the principal's office. And he was arrested and charged with first degree murder called to the principal's office and arrested for first degree murder yeah wow yep so following his arrest they took um some what evidence they could um him. They took that knife and that sheath that he kept it in, and they tested it for DNA. And they were able to match the blood on the knife to Glenn Kapitsky. And Glenn had been shot in the head with a shotgun. And they have never recovered it,

but they were able to track down, I guess, a record that Gary had at one time owned a shotgun and then could not produce it at this time. Yeah. And then they were able to get that neighbor to identify Gary's car as the car he had seen shining for deer the couple of nights before the murder. Even during all of this time, he's been arrested. He's been charged with murder. Like, all of these people are coming out and supporting him. Classmates. They think it's, like, some big confusion.

Something happened. What? Yeah. And then, like, there's, like, no way that this Eagle Scout, this football star could have done this. He even during this time gets a letter of acceptance from the University of St. Cloud or St. Cloud University in Minnesota and was offered a full scholarship. You're kidding me. No. Like, I don't know if they didn't get the memo that he'd been

but yeah that due to his they also heard about it and they also yeah due to his academic record his status as an eagle scout and his accomplishments as an athlete he was offered a full scholarship to saint cloud university for the oh my god for the next semester. Wow. Yeah. Meanwhile, he was in jail on a $400,000 bond. So he was like, yeah, could I defer that? Yeah, exactly. And his plan was to study criminal justice.

Was it really? Yes, it really was. That makes perfect sense. That makes perfect sense. It makes perfect sense. So police were able to kind of piece together what they thought happened. And Gary eventually gave them a confession. He said that he had that night

that he had been deer shining for deer or whatever the fuck they call it with Eric had been a dry run to see how quietly he could get down that road it was a gravel road um to see if he could do it unnoticed so that he could go to glenn's house and murder him at a later date so they said on the night of the murder which would have been like the last day of July, somewhere around like July 30th, July 31st, he completely repeated his course. He went exactly like he had the night he'd gone with Eric. He slipped out of his car. He went around to the back door of Glenn's house. He went in. Glenn was asleep in his bed. He surprised him.

He went in. Glenn was asleep in his bed. He surprised him. Glenn got up and asked him not to kill him. And then Gary made him turn around. He shot him in the back of the head, killed him instantly. He had these like crazy special shotgun shells that like explode once they get inside. And like it would have just like instantly liquefied his brain basically yeah he would have died instantly which i guess is yeah i guess the good part right um and then he for whatever reason stabbed him twice in the back and once in the heart before leaving and taking his keys as his trophy. That is nasty. Yeah, it's terrible. And so at his trial in January of 2005, that's the case that the prosecution presented. I don't know why I had trouble with that word. You lost total confidence. I totally did. That was their theory that that was their theory of events and they had you know some statements by gary that backed that up

but they were about to be dealt a bombshell because gary's attorney got up in court and said that that wasn't what happened at all and he offered for the very first time a very different chain of events that took place the night glenn kapitsky was murdered okay i'd love to hear it he said that gary had homosexual urges that intensified when he drank well how the hell would he know that and those those urges, because Gary had told him this. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about the victim. I'm so sorry.

No, no, no, no, no. Gary is the boy charged with the murder. It is kind of confusing, Gary and Glenn. Well, especially for me, because I pay no attention to names. So Gary had these homosexual urges that only worsened when he drank. And those urges had led to a sexual encounter between Gary and Glenn.

Okay. So after that encounter, Gary had like bottled up with all of this rage over what he had done. And he'd returned to Glenn's house and decided to kill him. So in their version of events, and I don't know, I couldn't find specifically if Gary testified to this himself at trial, or if this is all through his defense attorney. But basically he said that that night he got really drunk and he had had some kind of interactions with glenn kapitsky in the past through that you know those weird hangouts that

he had with the teenagers from the community theater possibly i don't really know okay and so he'd met up with kapitsky he had also been drinking and at some point they made the decision to go back to glenn's house and they had had a sexual encounter that night he'd had six malt liquors oh that's too many and 15 shots of vodka no when he had when he met ran into met glenn somehow how was he even like standing? Right? So they flirted. They returned to Glenn's house.

And Gary performed oral sex on Glenn. And according to Gary, it was a completely consensual act. He had wanted to do it. He'd willingly done it. And it was only afterward that he returned to his car and he fell asleep and he woke up and he had sobered up he realized what he had done and he got into this he rage over the fact that he had had a sexual encounter with a man well and i mean he was a drunk kid and this was an adult yes absolutely no matter if it's consensual or not it's not i don't know that

that's exactly 15 shots of vodka in i don't think you can say it's consensual no and so he said that he had been battling with not understanding his own sexuality and he had been taught that homosexuality was a sin and so he said he felt grossed out and disappointed in himself beyond belief and he said he believed that a homosexual act was not as bad or as raping or torturing someone but was worse than murder. Wait. Being gay is worse than murdering someone? Yeah. That's what he believed in that moment. And so that's why he went back and decided to murder Glenn Kapitsky. and so they pled not guilty by reason of insanity.

Wow. Yeah. Okay, could we pause? Yes. What do you make of this defense? I don't believe it. See, I kind of do. Do you really?

It kind of— I think I get. I think it's a very good argument after the fact. But you're only saying it now at your murder trial. You've never set it up till now. Well, if if you are struggling with the fact that you're gay. Yeah. Or that maybe you might be. Yeah. You're not going to go tell you're gay. Yeah. Or that maybe you might be gay. Yeah.

You're not going to go tell people about that. Yeah. It's only going to be when your back's against the wall and you've been charged with first degree murder that you would come out with that. I mean, that makes sense. I'm just saying, when you started saying, but his defense said, I was like, here comes the bullshit.

Yeah. And I. You don't think it's just bullshit? You think it's possible? You think it's probable? Here's the thing. When you first started describing the victim, Glenn. Glenn, yeah.

Yeah. I thought, okay, well, he's just a gay man in a small town. Oh, yeah. So that was where my mind already was. Yeah. well, he's just a gay man in a small town. Oh, yeah. So that was where my mind already was.

Yeah. And if that encounter happened with a teenager who was drunk, then that's bad. That's wrong. Oh, yeah. And I can understand how, if that did happen, that would put you into a rage

because you already are conflicted with like yeah just who your identity and yeah am i and all that stuff i'd say i don't know if i believe it that's what i'll say believe it i'm looking at your face you totally don't know i just i just don't know i think that on the one hand yes like if that's really that's the truth, then yeah, maybe you you don't say anything about it until you have no choice but to say it. Yeah. Especially when you're viewed as this golden boy hero in this small town. Yeah. I mean, maybe you're right. I don't know. I am. I don't know. So to back up their claim of not guilty by reason of insanity, they called an expert witness that said that Gary was in the middle of a psychotic depressive reaction,

psychotic depressive reaction though there was no he admitted that there was no documented case of him having any kind of history of any mental illness or anything right at the trial the prosecution really tried to emphasize that there was no mention of this sexual encounter until now like it was never mentioned during the investigation. It was never mentioned when he was first charged. And their argument was that it had never been mentioned because it was completely fabricated. I can see why they would say that. Yeah.

You don't, you believe it. I still maintain. Yeah. If it's something that has caused you great shame. Yeah. Then you're not going to tell people about it. Yeah. If it's something that has caused you great shame. Yeah. Then you're not going to tell people about. Yeah. Yeah. So the defense's expert witness that it would make sense that with this particular state that he was in and with the questioning what he was taught and what he was feeling, it would make sense that gary would rather have his parents believe that he was a cold-blooded murderer than a homosexual

you know i'm just trying to put myself back in that time it was a totally different time even though it's not that long ago when we were in high school. But I mean, I just feel like times were so much more homophobic then. And I can't even imagine in a small town. Absolutely. He went on to say that it would be very difficult for a teenager in a religious family to admit to having homosexual feelings or to have engaged in homosexual activity. And that he believed in Gary's mind it was better for his parents to believe that he was just a cold-blooded murderer, which is why he had told the story initially that he had just done it to see if he could i i think it's it's it's possible i agree it is possible i mean that argument makes sense to me yeah i'm totally i totally buy it yeah and gary's parents did too.

Gary's parents testified that they believed their son's story about the sexual encounter. And that he would have been willing, they believed that he would have been willing to risk life imprisonment to keep that secret to himself. Because he would have believed that it would have been too shameful to admit the real reason. That's so sad. Oh, yeah. But the prosecution maintained through the entire trial that they did not believe that the sexual encounter ever happened. And that there was no forensic evidence to suggest that it had ever happened. forensic evidence to suggest that it had ever happened there was no evidence that gary had been drunkenly in that home what kind of evidence would he didn't leave behind any

fingerprints he didn't leave behind any hair he didn't leave behind any dna am i about to embarrass myself big time was that was the argument that he got really drunk they had the sexual encounter and he came back and murdered him that night yeah oh oh i'm sorry i'm so sorry yes as soon as he sobered up that didn't happen i agree that didn't happen i'm so sorry my listening comprehension skills are shot no that didn't happen oh my god i feel like such an idiot can we cut this whole episode no and no here okay here's what i think i for some reason in my, it was like that sexual encounter happened like a few weeks, maybe a month beforehand. But no, you don't. You know what?

You know what? It doesn't specifically say. So I'm picturing it the way you just said it could have happened. Okay. The way that you were envisioning it. Okay. Where he battled with it for weeks and decided, yes, I'm going to come back and murder that guy. Okay.

That's the way it was. But the way the prosecution pitched it or wrapped it up at trial was that they happened one right after the other. Okay. No way. Yeah. And I don't know. This is so funny. Okay.

No. I don't think you're wrong. Okay. Okay. I don't. Yeah. And I don't know. This is so funny. Okay. No, I don't think you're wrong. Okay, okay. I don't. Yeah. I don't think you're wrong. I think it's not very clear. And I think that that's probably what the prosecution wanted. Okay.

So the trial lasted five days. Mm-hmm. Five days. And ultimately, the jury decided what they find. Oh, gosh. I don't even have a guess. They rejected his insanity plea and they found him guilty of first degree murder. Yeah.

Yeah. And he was sentenced to life in prison. Wow. Yeah. Oh, that's such a tough one. It is tough. It's really tough. I know. Because initially I had such a problem with the fact that he had never mentioned the sexual encounter before.

with the fact that he had never mentioned the sexual encounter before. But then to hear what the expert said and what his parents said, that they totally believe that he would have just gone to prison and had nobody know about that. Like, that would be better than people knowing he had committed a homosexual act or he was a homosexual or whatever. Right. had committed a homosexual act or he was a homosexual or whatever right i think yeah being in like being this football hero in this small town like yeah you can the last thing he wanted to admit was that he was gay yeah i mean i think i could totally see that yeah i could too i don't know these are the toughest ones for me where I'm, like, undecided at the end. Like, did the jury get it right or not?

Ultimately, he murdered someone and... Oh, yeah, yeah. That's not up for debate. He definitely murdered him. Yeah. And that shouldn't have happened. Yeah. But was he legally insane when he did it?

The jury said no. Yeah, I don't think he was legally insane i don't either either yeah but like one one motive i understand yeah and the other is just cold-blooded yeah so the prosecution argued that they believe that he idolized Leopold and Loeb. Oh. Well, I mean, maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Which Kristen covered on episode 19, I think. God, you are so good.

Do we want to see if that's right? Yeah, let's see if that's right. Hold on, I'll look it up for you now. Nope. I am not right. Wow. How could you? Embarrassing.

Which one is it? I think it's episode 16 oh i was freaking close you were so freaking damn it and yet you're right it is episode 16 the not so perfect crime i should probably change that to leopold and lobe i feel like people know that yeah okay that was a good one it was something i'd never heard of and i think it leaves a lot of like i think there's I feel like people know that. Yeah. Okay, that was a good one. It was something I'd never heard of, and I think it leaves a lot of, like, I think there's room for debate on, you know. I think, I think it's a, they came up with a good argument at the very least. Yeah, but not enough to make me think that he was insane. I agree. You know. that he was insane.

I agree. You know. And if you'll recall, based on last week's episode, it was the defense's burden to prove that he was, he had been suffering from mental illness and they just,

they didn't do enough to prove it. Hmm. Oh, that's rough. It is. It's a rough one. I don't know where I land on it. Where did you land when you came in today?

That he 100% murdered him because he wanted to see if he could get away with it. Yeah. Yeah. Like I hadn't even considered another. I honestly hadn't. Yeah. See, I think it's so fun when we disagree on stuff.

I do too. Oh, man. Well, I've got a real do too. Oh, man. Well, I've got a real fun one. Oh, my gosh. I figured you would cover this case. Did you? It's definitely a you case. It's a me case.

It's definitely a you case. I couldn't do it. But you knew, right? I mean, you saw his name. Oh, 100% I know the case. I knew the case when you text me this week. When I texted you this week and said, I'm doing a case involving a swimmer. Yeah, I was like, she's doing Brock Turner.

Well, no one says that sentence anymore. Oh, God. Oh, no. Yeah, let's hope he's lonely. Yeah. Okay, so if you don't know this story, buckle up. Ugh. Yeah.

It was about 1 in the morning on January 18, 2015 at Stanford University. So this probably goes without saying, but we have international listeners. So Stanford is an extremely prestigious university it has like a five percent acceptance rate tons of impressive alumni including chelsea clinton sandra day o'connor john steinbeck and reese witherspoon oh who we covered in our april fools episode so to generalize big time it's a school for very smart and usually very wealthy privileged that's a fancy pants school very fancy pants so back to the story if it was like um if it was like a game cube controller it'd be the spongebob of game cube controllers very fancy right very totally like Fancy. Right? Very rare. Like 5% of GameCube controllers. Yes.

Yeah. So it's one in the morning, and two Swedish international students named Peter Lars Johnson and Carl Friedrich Arndt, I tried, were riding their bikes through the Stanford campus. They rode past the Kappa Alpha fraternity house where a big party was going on and they rode past a dumpster and that's when they saw what sort of looked like two people having sex but something wasn't right. A man was on top of a woman. He was thrusting. But she wasn't moving. Yeah. She was completely non-responsive. So Peter shouted, is everything OK?

And that's when the man turned around. And Peter and Carl Friedrich were stunned. The woman was naked from the waist down. I believe she had her dress pulled down on top too. And she was just out cold. Peter said to the man, what the

fuck are you doing? She's unconscious. That's when the man, who had a baby face and could have really used some hair serum, got up and took off running. Carl Friedrich immediately went over to the unconscious woman just to check and see if she was alive and she was breathing.

Meanwhile, Peter ran after the guy. They were about 75 feet away from the dumpster when Peter tripped the guy and held him down. By that point, Carl Friedrich was right on their heels and Peter tripped the guy and held him down. By that point, Carl Friedrich was right on their heels and together they pinned the guy down. Then, strangely, the man smiled and laughed. Oh, I didn't know that. I didn't know this either. That's disgusting. Peter said said what are you smiling for so i couldn't find out if he ever answered if he answered the question in the moment but he later said that he was laughing because he found the whole situation ridiculous

well i'm sorry what yeah by this point there were more people around and they helped peter and carl and someone called emergency services to help the woman and two other people helped keep the man pinned down to the ground within a few minutes camp campus... Oh, good. Just so you know, Google Docs can give grammar suggestions right in the docs. That was the notification. Okay, I'm just going to click got it. I'm so glad that popped up right now. I wasn't busy.

It's cool. It's cool, Google Docs. So within a few minutes, campus police arrived. They talked to the man and discovered that he was 19-year-old Brock Turner. Brock was a freshman at Stanford. And when he wasn't busy assaulting women behind dumpsters, he was a pretty good swimmer. And I mention that because that's very important to mention. Yeah.

In high school, he was a three-time All-American swimmer. In fact, he was at Stanford on a swimming scholarship. But, very unpopular opinion here. Here it comes. Who gives a shit? Who gives a flying fuck that he was a good swimmer? Yeah. I'll tell you who. The fucking judge and like every

media outlet ever because i mean i don't know if i'm assuming you talk about this in here so i don't want to give spoilers no i don't go to the trial brandy i don't talk about this i'm talking about like in the initial like articles about it his swimming times were put were written about it in the article next to the fact that he was charged with rape yeah yeah oh he's charged with raping someone behind a dumpster an unconscious woman but also everybody if you're looking for a guy that's's fucking disgusting. Even some of the articles I read the other day for this, just some of the ways this stuff gets written about, where it's not overtly awful, but it's... Like, I read this one that was like, it's been a stunning fall from grace for blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it just strikes me as the kind of thing where like, huh, if I were the one writing

that article, it would never occur to me to write it that way. To me, when you talk about the fall from grace or he could have done this or he could have been this to me that says you are sympathetic you're putting yourself in the shoes of the rapist yeah yeah rather than the victim yeah yeah i just i read that and i thought okay from a from a journalist point of view what is that what do you mean what how do you how do you feel about that like it's disgusting yeah I mean I there are just certain articles that you read and a lot of the times they aren't like oh like i mean saying so and so is accused of rape and by the way here there's sometimes that's that's overt yeah it's

over the top that is awful and yeah the thing i like about that though is we can all point to that yeah and agree that that's bad yeah but articles that kind of say say yeah say more like oh this young man held so much promise but now he has been accused by blah blah blah yeah instead of where the way i look at it as a woman and as a potential victim i guess is kind of like holy shit he This was the start of his college career. Yeah. He could have done so much more. Yeah. And by that, I mean rape.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I just wanted to make that clear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that's why you need diversity in the newsroom. Uh-huh. you need diversity in the newsroom. Uh-huh.

Because I don't think it's necessarily someone's fault who they sympathize with in a situation. Yeah. But, like, you've got to have enough eyes on an article to be able to call someone out on their biases. Right, yeah. Biases, although I don't like saying it that way. I don't care for that at all. Biases?

Yeah, not good. Ew. Is that the worst thing that I've said so far? Okay, so back to this douchebag. So police arrested him almost immediately on suspicion of attempted rape and penetration with a foreign object. But don't worry. I can see you're concerned

about our little swimmy swim friend. No. He was released the same day he was arrested. Of course he was. Because he was able to post $150,000

He's white and rich. No problem. Yeah. Yeah. Before he was released, though, Brock told police that he'd met the woman who I'll refer to

as Emily Doe because that's just kind of what everyone's doing, outside the frat house that night. They'd left together, but he didn't know her name, and he wouldn't be able to recognize her if he saw her again. He also told police that his intentions were not to try to rape a girl without her consent which is the most hilarious intention i didn't want to rape her without her consent well so he admitted that he had been drinking that night which was good because he reeked of it he told police that he'd started the night with five rolling rocks a couple swigs of fireball and some more beer later in the night makes me want to puke in my yard i know oh i did my big donkey laugh do we want to talk about the time that i was the drunkest

i've ever been in my life i think we do um so it was the night of the manny pacquiao floyd mayweather fight which i am not into fights at all but like for whatever reason i i watched like a 24-7 on manny pacquiao and i got super into him before that fight and so i was like we're gonna watch the fight and the fight was like we're it's like a hundred bucks to rent the fight and so like a bunch of us got together at my cousin's house it was like five couples so we each had to pay 20 bucks to rent the fight right and so my cousin's wife Tasha and I were sitting next to each other on the couch and they had like a liter of fireball oh god only there was just a little tiny bit left in the bottom and so so Tasha and I were like, we'll just finish it off. And so we were just like passing it back and forth from each other, just taking like pulls off the bottle.

Here's the problem when it's a liter bottle. It looks really small. It looks like there's a little tiny bit left and a little tiny bit of a liter is still a fuck ton of fireball. We got so shit facedfaced it was terrible i was i could it was bad i got you look like you're gonna be sick just talking about i honestly don't think i've had fireball since then like it can you have cinnamon at all i like gag a little bit in my throat. So I got home. I was driven home safely. I did not drive.

I had a sober driver. I got out of the car. I stood in my front lawn and I go, oh, no. And I just puked in my own front lawn. I was a 30-year-old woman puking in my front lawn. And like I said, I don't think I've had Fireball since then. Brandi, that's the classiest story you've ever told on a podcast. And like you're just, you know, it's bad when you're just like sitting there.

Like you don't realize it until you get a stand up. Well, and Fireball is one of those sweet ones. Oh, yeah. Where you don't really, it's not like vodka with seltzer. No. Where you grimace every time you take a swig. That was bad. You're going to be okay?

I'm fine. Okay. So, let's see. Oh, yeah. So, Brock didn't want to rape a girl without her consent sure okay he said that he and the woman whose name he didn't catch drank some beer together kissed and walked away from the frat house hand in hand somehow they ended up on the ground but kept on kissing and that's when he took off her underwear and fondled her the whole time she was rubbing his back with both hands she seemed to enjoy the

activity okay most women want to go by the dumpster that's where i that's my spot of choice. Location of choice. Whatever you want, your sex pad. That's my sex pad. Any dumpster. Yeah, any dumpster will do. I just love, just so aromatic. Nothing says for sure consent is happening like a dumpster. Like a dumpster.

Brock never took off his pants and he never had sex with her. Because you see, in the midst of all this fun, he started to feel a little sick. So he got up and all of a sudden he was tackled by a group of guys. Brandy, he was tackled by these evil Swedes. Evil Swedes! He didn't run from them or anything. He just heard them speaking in a foreign language, and he was randomly and suddenly tackled to the ground

after not running at all. Uh-huh. Bullshit. Brandy. That's bullshit! Brandy, do need to for me to tell you again he was a very fast swimmer do not need you to tell me that and i recall and you know what it doesn't change my opinion of him at all how strange i wish you were a judge so meanwhile, Emily was still unconscious when police arrived on the scene. Her dress was up around her waist and her underwear was lying next to her. They took her to the hospital. And even when she was at the hospital, people tried to shake her shoulder.

So I didn't know this was an actual test. But they shake you by the shoulders and shout at you to see if you'll react. And she didn't react at all she was out cold oh there was one gross thing that just creeped me out so i didn't write it down but like it said they like they like dug into her nail beds for a reaction and she i know i know that's why i didn't write it down i was too grossed out but now i'm telling you that's a thing yeah to get you to react to see how out you are. And they said her eyes did open briefly for that, but I mean, she was just out.

She was out cold. I know. It is just, oh, it's too much. You had to tell me that? I'm sorry. I felt like I needed people to know how out of it she is. There's no way she was giving any form of consent absolutely not it wasn't there's no way she was rubbing his back either no the whole thing is total horseshit

oh we could go back to your dorm but instead oh it's just bang right here by this dumpster in the dirt no and i'll rub your back absolutely not it wasn't until about 4 15 in the morning that she came to wow yeah emily was scared and shocked she was 22 years old she didn't go to stanford um she was just there with her younger sister to go to that frat party where like i guess her younger sister had a friend at stanford so they all went together yeah she didn't remember anything about what had happened to her and all of a sudden she woke up in a hospital with pine needles in her hair and dried blood on her hands and elbows oh my gosh she i just i can't imagine what that would feel like to wake up and know that okay something terrible happened yeah i have no idea what yeah she told

police that she didn't even remember being alone with a man that night let alone consenting to have sex with someone a nurse who examined examined Emily noted that she had experienced significant trauma and penetrating trauma. Ten days later, on January 28, 2015, Brock was indicted on two charges of rape,

two charges of felony sexual assault, and one charge of attempted rape. He pled not guilty to all five charges. And he said, excuse me, judge, have you heard what a good swimmer I am? Hey, judge, do you want to come to my swim meet? Yeah. Because that's the most relevant thing.

Yes. On October 7th, prosecutors dropped the two rape charges because a DNA test didn't reveal evidence of genital to genital contact. The trial. Really? So, we'll get into it a little bit more. But basically, there was no semen. So, there's that. Mm-hmm. And I believe, we'll get to this later, but dirt can affect things.

Mm-hmm. Wetness can affect things. Mm-hmm. So there was no evidence. Okay. No DNA evidence. Mm-hmm. The trial began on March 14th with a jury of eight men and four women.

Right off the bat, prosecutors were worried. Brock had this baby face. He was a celebrated athlete. He was attending one of the best schools in the nation. Yeah. They feared that the jury would give him special treatment. I'm going to pause real quick. Because the other thing that drove a lot of people crazy about this was

when this story first came out the picture they ran of him was his yearbook photo yeah not his mugshot no and his mugshot he looks like a frizzy haired little is that available oh yeah but it it spurred another round of really good conversations where it's like oh hmm how do you decide when to use someone's mugshot versus someone's yearbook picture oh i have seen this picture yeah yeah yeah you're right but the yearbook picture is the way more well-known picture. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Deputy District Attorney.

Is it a tough name? Oh, my God. Why are you looking at it like you've never seen it before? I'm sorry. You know what I do? I write these names down, and I'm like, I'll get to it when I get to it. And here we are. I think it's Alaleh Kianersi. Yeah, I'm sure that's definitely it.

Let me give you the first name. A-L-A-L-E-H. Alaleh? Yeah, Alaleh. Alaleh told the jury, he may not look like a a rapist but he is the face of campus sexual assault the prosecution also worried about the fact that emily had no memory of what happened yeah she couldn't she couldn't give yes she couldn't say yeah but at the same time, like... Like, that's saying something! Absolutely. And, like, two people came upon this thing happening.

Yes. And they had to stop it. Yeah. God, what if they would have just kept on walking and pretended they didn't see anything? I mean, I think we know what would have happened. And I bet that happens. Yeah. Yeah. Ugh.

I just want to say, these two Swedish international students, number one, they're heroes. Yeah. Number two, they are super hot. Yes, they really are. Heroes and hot. Hot heroes. Do you want to look them up real quick? I do.

Okay. I wonder if you can... Okay. Brock Turner. Swedes. That actually... Yeah, pull them up! Pull them up! How cute are they?

I mean... They're very good looking. Yeah.edish heroes who caught the rapist i mean they could be models oh yeah very handsome young men all right just wanted to say that so emily had no memory of what happened so the fear was that jury the jury might just believe whatever brock told them because he was the one with the story he was the one with the memory the prosecution had to make sure that the jury didn't give brock special treatment and they also had to make sure that the jury i I'm just repeating what I've already said. Okay.

Say it again for the people in the back. No, they get it. They get it. So what I'm hearing is that. It's a rural town. It's a rural town. And the jury, they were afraid the jury was going to give them special treatment. Yeah, I'm afraid so.

These are the two big takeaways from this week's episode of Let's Go to Court. But defense attorney Michael Armstrong was like, whoa there. Things have gotten a little out of hand here. We have this good kid. He was out that night, admittedly drunk. But so was she. They were both very drunk. No i i don't fucking care you should care it's all that matters no they're both drunk double immunity the worst fucking argument i've ever heard

she was drunk what did she expect a fucking hangover probably yeah Not to get raped. Yeah. Or she was wearing blah, blah, blah. What did she expect? It's ridiculous. Yeah. It's infuriating. It makes me so mad because society is like so focused on. we focus on teaching women how not to get raped instead of teaching men not to rape women. Yeah.

Yeah. Yes. And it's so bass-ackwards, it drives me fucking nuts. And not to mention, there's no way to act to not get raped. No! Because really, if there was, I think we'd all just do it. Exactly! Exactly! Yes.

Yeah. Men aren't taught that they should walk to their fucking car with their keys between their fingers in case they have to fight off an attacker. Like, the shit that women are taught and have to worry about when they're by themselves is fucking ridiculous i was just having this thought the other night like i'm forgetting where i saw this but someone asked the question i think the question was if there were no men after nine o'clock at night how would that change your life and it was a question just for women yeah and so norman and i were talking about it and i was like oh my god i would love that i would go for walks late at night it would just like that would really change my life if after dark there were no men men were not allowed out of their houses, which is so sad.

So we had this big talk, and it was just basically about, yeah, to be a woman, you have this constant kind of low-level running fear all the time. Don't you wonder about how that messes with you? Oh, 100%. Yeah. The other day, I went. So was when norman was out of town i went for a run and it was dark out i know i know and i thought to myself it wasn't super late but i thought to yourself brandy would be so pissed at me right now i did i thought about all that and i also also I just thought a lot about like hmm

if you know if they find my body this is what I'll be wearing oh gosh I probably should have washed my hair it's not like you know I was just having all these

all these thoughts like just cause it's yeah it's scary yeah but you don't want it to control your life at the same time I don't know

and we should probably say that like like, I love men. I have nothing against men. I hate all men. Like, this is not, we heard this is not the he-woman man-haters club. Yes, it is, Brandi. Don't you know where you are? But, like, these are the things that women think about that men don't think about.

Yeah. Yeah. Ugh. things that women think about that men don't think about yeah yeah yeah my my best friend dax shepherd actually talks about it on his podcast oh really is he your best see here's the deal he doesn't know he's my best friend wow and i'm sorry kristen like you know you're my best friend that's here right now in this room in this room but if dax was here so what does he say so he says that it boggles his mind the shit that he never has to think about because he is a white male yeah and he's like a large white male yeah so the he never has to feel unsafe or like he's going to be the target of something or that he has to look over his shoulder when he's out at night

and like the fact that people all kinds of different people have to think about those things oh yeah just because he was born one way and they were born some other way is just like, you can't even wrap your brain around that. Yeah. Now I'm down real low. I know. Let's go down even lower. Let's.

Let me take another sip of this champagne of beers. What am I drinking? It's Miller High Life, right? It's delicious. Do you love it? I do. Norman is obsessed with it. I really like it.

I've never tried it before. Well, after this, I've got some fireball for you. No! Can't handle it. My stomach, like, literally does something just at, like, the mention of it. Like, while you told that story, your face contorted. It was not good. So the defense attorney is saying this was consensual. Brock can tell you all about it. He remembers the whole thing. Yes. And fucking Emily can't because she doesn't remember any of it because she was blacked out four hours still later at the hospital.

Yeah. Fuck off. Fuck right off. If only he could hear you now. Continue. Emily Doe was among the first people to testify. She explained that that night she hadn't really wanted to go out. She just graduated from college. She was living at home with her parents. She had a serious boyfriend in Philly and she was just planning to stay in. But her younger sister

and one of her friends was like, oh, come on. So they drank some whiskey, met up with their friends who go to Stanford. Once they got to the party, Emily said she basically started acting goofy just to make her younger sister laugh. She danced, she sang, she drank. One witness said that when all this was happening, Brock actually came up to Emily's sister and tried twice to kiss her. But the sister was like, no thanks. Emily couldn't testify as to what happened to her that night. She didn't remember anything past midnight. On cross-examination, the defense asked her if she'd partied a lot in college. And she said, I did a decent amount.

I wouldn't call myself a party animal. She was asked to confirm that she'd had four or five blackouts in college. The prosecution asked her if the night of January... That's it. Asking for it. Yeah. The prosecution asked her if the night of January 18th was different from the other blackouts. And she said, in previous blackouts, I have never been half naked outside.

Then the prosecutor asked if she'd ever engaged in promiscuous behavior during blackouts. Oh, my. She said no. Oh, my God. And I mean, this is the prosecution. So they're on her side. But they're trying to say this stuff to differentiate it. Right. I mean, it's like there's no winning.

No. Emily's boyfriend took the stand, and he talked about a voicemail that he received from Emily shortly after she regained consciousness. The prosecution played that voicemail for the jury, and in it, Emily was just, like, incoherent. It showed how far gone she was. The prosecution called forensic biologist Craig Lee to the stand. He explained that he hadn't found semen in any of the swabs that were taken from Emily's body,

but he said that it's impossible to test whether Brock's skin cells were present in Emily's vaginal or cervical swabs. So that's what I was getting at earlier. But he did say that Emily's DNA was on swabs taken from Brock's finger and his fingernails. Emily's sister also took the stand and confirmed that brock had tried to kiss her at the party despite the fact that they'd never spoken before and she said that she never saw her sister or brock talk to each other that you've ever been to a frat party uh no me either like my college it was an all-women's yeah college so we didn't, you know, we didn't have that. But I don't think I ever, yeah, I never went to a frat party.

Me either. I'm just like one, like, I'm just trying to picture like a circumstance where you just walk up and try and kiss someone you've never spoken to. I do that all the time. I get punched a lot yeah no that's that's ridiculous yeah that's ridiculous yes um i can't imagine how entitled you would have to be to just go up to someone and start kissing them yeah emily's sister also talked about leaving emily at the party that night she left the party to make sure a drunk friend made it safely to her dorm so she left emily at the party and the defense

jumped all over that michael armstrong was like you weren't worried about her. And she said she was standing. Her eyes were open. Yeah. So the thing that drives me crazy about that is. Okay, so now it's her sister's fault. Her sister's fault that this dude took her out to the dumpster? Yeah. How is that her sister's fault? You know, the defense attorney is obviously trying to act like,

oh, you know, when you left her, she was clearly just fine. Yeah. But her sister was probably drunk off her ass, too. Oh, my gosh. The way I'm imagining it is it was a total shit show. Yeah. Which I'm sure I'm right. Brock took the stand.

And don't worry, he cleared everything up. I'm sure he did. His memory was better than ever. He and Emily danced and kissed at the party. He asked her if she would like to go back to his dorm. And she said yes. Of course she did. They held hands as they left the frat house.

But then, like a classic romantic tale, she oopsies slipped and they both fell down. There they were, on the ground, near a dumpster, when they kissed. And he asked permission to touch her genitals, and she said yes. Okay. At one point, he asked whether she liked it, and she said, uh-huh, and then they began dry humping. Uh-huh. But then, then Brock felt a little sick.

He got up, and these two men were like right there. One of them asked what he was doing, and one of them tried to put him in a headlock. Brock got scared. And one of them tried to put him in a headlock. Brock got scared. So he ran. And then they tackled him. And he was screaming for help. He was so frightened.

So. Wow. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's such fucking bullshit so much consent though right yeah like he had his little checklist like a little notepad yeah

which is that's like if an alien came down some other planet was like is this consent no that's not how we do it it's a little more on the fly a little more casual than that typically yes then may i touch your genitals may i touch your genitals so of course are you feeling pleasure oh good let me record this.

So obviously that did not match the Swedish hero story. You know, and it didn't match what Brock had originally told police either. No. His memory somehow had gotten a lot sharper. Ultimately, what this all came down to was, did Brock believe he had her consent? That's what the jury had to determine. Did he know, or should he reasonably have known, that she was too intoxicated to consent? Yes. Gee, it's a real tough one.

In closing arguments, the prosecution told the jury to look at the evidence what is going on over here is she dreaming but not are you okay she said fuck off i'm just fine i'm sorry i'm gonna grab some lip gloss real quick i'm getting all my lip gloss be cool my lip gloss be popping okay do you not like my outfit it's quite a look you've got going i'm wondering why the lip gloss did you do that just to cap it off huh no it's my carmex my lips were getting all chappy. Oh, you needed your rectal exam cream. That's a separate Carmex.

I keep one tube. I label it for my anus. Man, it sucks when I mix those two up. I still can't believe you're a Blistex person. That shit does not moisturize. Oh, bull fucking shit. It's just mint. It's just mint.

So good. I can practically feel it right now. Rubbing them dry lips together. They are a little dry right now. You want some, Mike? I don't want any of your anal lube. Fine. Can't wait till you need it and I tell you no.

My question, please. I need the Carmex. Carmex will never sponsor us. This is why we have to have a Patreon. No, no. It will. It will say, Carmemex not just for anuses this episode brought to you by carmex when your lips and your anus need a little moisture

oh Lord Almighty. Where was I? Okay. So the prosecution showed pictures of Emily to the jury where she was clearly not responding to emergency workers trying to wake her up. She said... I'm sorry. I thought you were raising your hand. She said, her out she said i'm sorry i thought you were raising your hand she said these photos corroborate how she was totally unresponsive if peter and carl can tell from yards away that she was unconscious

couldn't the defendant know when he was on top of her yeah it doesn't pass the common sense test yeah i totally agree 100 i, that's amazing to me. It's relatively dark out. Yeah. And these two guys from yards away are looking, they clearly see

something's wrong. Yeah. And yet he couldn't see? Yeah. No. She also talked about the fact that Brock ran from the crime.

And she talked about how when police first talked to Brock, he denied fleeing the scene. He was lying. He knowingly violated Emily. But the defense disagreed. They said that there was no evidence

to make Brock think that Emily was incapable of consenting. He said, hey, her sister even left the party without her thinking she was okay to be left on her own. He said, her, her sister even left the party without her thinking she was okay to be left on her own. He said, her sister said she was fine, so she wasn't worried about leaving her there. Who knows her better than her sister? Hmm.

The jury deliberated and they found him guilty on all three charges. Brock faced up to 14 years in prison. know the story do you think everyone knows this uh i'd say most people know it so the prosecution recommended six years in prison probation officials recommended he get a moderate county jail sentence that's a moderate county jail i don't know but i'm alarmed yeah emily doe read a very powerful letter in court it eventually went viral that that's how i know the story is it how you know it yes it is super long yeah 247 pages, single spaced. It's very long. I do want to read some of it. OK. I figure when it gets too long, we'll just stop or maybe we'll cut some of this. I don't know. But it's it's so good. And I still remember exactly where I was the first time I read it.

Yeah. Your Honor, if it is all right, for the majority of this statement, I would like to address the defendant directly. You don't know me, but you've been inside me, and that's why we're here today. I know. That is the most powerful thing. It makes me want to cry. I know.

No, we didn't call you. I said, is that your name? Classic Norm. Classic Norm. On January 17th, 2015, it was a quiet Saturday night at home. My dad made some dinner and I sat at the table with my younger sister who was visiting for the weekend. I was working full-time and it was approaching my bedtime. I planned to stay at home by myself, watch some TV and read while she went to a party with

her friends. Then I decided it was my only night with her. I had nothing better to do, so why not? There's a dumb party 10 minutes from my house. I would go, dance weird like a fool, and embarrass my younger sister. On the way there, I joked that undergrad guys would have braces. My sister teased me for wearing a beige cardigan to a frat party like a librarian. I called myself Big Mama because I knew I'd be the oldest one there. I made silly faces, let my guard down, and drank liquor too fast, not factoring in that my tolerance had significantly lowered since college. The next thing I remember, I was in a gurney in a hallway.

I had dried blood and bandages on the backs of my hands and elbow. I thought maybe I had fallen, and I was in an admin office on campus. I was very calm and wondering where my sister was. A deputy explained I had been assaulted. I still remained calm, assured he was speaking to the wrong person. I knew no one at this party. When I was finally allowed to use the restroom, I pulled down the hospital pants they had given me, went to pull down my underwear, and felt nothing. I still remember the feeling of my hands touching my skin and grabbing nothing. I looked down and saw there was nothing. The thin piece of fabric, the only thing between my vagina and anything else, was missing and everything inside me was silenced. I still don't have words for that feeling. In order to keep breathing, I thought maybe the policeman used Ugh. I thought maybe the pine needles had fallen from a tree onto my head. My brain was talking my gut into not collapsing, because my gut was saying, help me, help me.

I shuffled from room to room with a blanket wrapped around me, pine needles trailing behind me. I left a little pile in every room I sat in. I was asked to sign papers that said rape victim, and I thought, something has really happened. My clothes were confiscated, and I stood naked while the nurses held a ruler to various abrasions on my body and photographed them. The three of us worked to comb the pine needles out of my hair, six hands to fill one paper bag. To calm me down, they said it's just the flora and fauna, flora and fauna. To calm me down, they said it's just the flora and fauna, flora and fauna. I had multiple swabs inserted into my vagina and anus, needles for shots, pills, and had a Nikon pointed right into my spread legs. I had long, pointed beaks inside me and had my vagina smeared with cold blue paint to check for abrasions.

After a few hours of this, they let me shower. I stood there examining my body beneath the stream of water and decided I don't want my body anymore. I was terrified of it. I didn't know what had been in it, if it had been contaminated, who had touched it. I wanted to take off my body like a jacket and leave it at the hospital with everything else.

That's horrible. Yeah. I'm sorry, I didn't know you were crying. It's okay. It's okay. On that morning, all that I was told was that I had been found behind a dumpster, potentially penetrated by a stranger, and that I should get retested for HIVster, potentially penetrated by a stranger, and that

I should get retested for HIV because results don't always show up immediately. But for now, I should go home and get back to my normal life. Imagine stepping back into the world with only that information. They gave me huge hugs, and then I walked out of the hospital into the parking lot wearing the new sweatshirt and sweatpants they provided me, as they had only allowed me to keep my necklace and shoes. My sister picked me up, face wet from tears and contorted in anguish. Instinctively and immediately I wanted to take away her pain. I smiled at her. I told her to look at me.

I'm right here. I'm okay. Everything's okay. I'm right here. My hair is washed and clean. They gave me the strangest shampoo. Calm down and look at me. I'm right here. I'm okay. Everything's okay. I'm right here. My hair is washed and clean. They gave me the strangest shampoo. Calm down and look at me. Look at these funny new sweatpants and sweatshirt. I look like a PE teacher. Let's go home. Let's eat something. She did not know that beneath my sweats I had scratches and bandages on my skin. My vagina was sore and had become a strange dark color from all the prodding. My underwear was missing and I felt too empty to continue to speak. That I was afraid, that I was also devastated. That day we drove home and for hours my sister held me. My boyfriend did not know what happened. Is this okay to keep reading or is this too long?

No, keep going. My boyfriend did not know what happened, but called that day and said, I was really worried about you last night. You scared me. Did you make it home okay? I was horrified. That's when I learned I had called him that night in my blackout, left an incomprehensible voicemail that we had also spoken on the phone,

but I was slurring so heavily he was scared for me that he repeatedly told me to go find my sister. Again he asked me, what happened last night? Did you make it home okay? I said yes and hung up to cry. I was not ready to tell my boyfriend or my parents that actually I may have been raped behind a dumpster, but I don't know by who or when or how. If I told them, I would see the fear on their faces and mine would multiply by tenfold, so instead I pretended the whole thing wasn't real. I tried to push it out of my mind, but it was so heavy I didn't talk, I didn't eat, I didn't sleep, I didn't interact with anyone. I didn't talk. I didn't eat. I didn't sleep. I didn't interact with anyone. After work, I would drive to a secluded place and scream. I didn't talk. I didn't eat. I didn't sleep. I didn't interact with anyone. I became isolated from the ones I loved most. For one week after

the incident, I didn't get any calls or updates about that night or what happened to me. The only symbol that proved that it hadn't been just a bad dream was the sweatshirt from the hospital and my drawer. One day I was at work scrolling through the news on my phone and came across an article. This is the part that kills me. In it, I read and learned for the first time about how I was found unconscious, with my hair disheveled, long necklace wrapped around my neck, bra pulled out of my dress, dress pulled off over my shoulders and pulled up above my waist. That I was butt naked, all the way down to my boots, legs spread apart, and had been penetrated by a foreign object by someone I did not recognize. This was how I learned what happened to me. Oh, my God. I know.

That's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. How does that happen? I have no idea. This was how I learned what happened to me. Sitting at my desk, reading the news at work. I learned what happened to me the same way everyone else in the world learned what happened to me. Sitting at my desk, reading the news at work. I learned what happened to me the same way everyone else in the world learned what happened to me. Oh, the idea of that is horrifying.

Yeah. I can't even. No, and I don't know, like, do the police release the information to the media before talking to anyone who's directly involved i don't know how that happens but it's so upsetting that's so messed up that's when the pine needles in my hair made sense. They didn't fall from a tree. He had taken off my underwear. His fingers had been inside me. I don't even know this person. I still don't know this person. When I read about me like this, I said, this can't be me. This can't be me. I could not digest or accept any of this information. I could not imagine my family having to read about this online. I kept

reading. In the next paragraph, I read something that I will never forgive. I read that, according to him, I liked it. I liked it. Again, I did not have words for these feelings. At the bottom of the article, after I learned about the graphic details of my own sexual assault, the article listed his swimming times. She was found breathing, unresponsive, with her underwear six inches away from her bare stomach, curled in a fetal position. By the way, he's really good at swimming. Throw in my mile time

if that's what we're doing. I'm good at cooking. Put that in there. I think the end is where you list your extracurriculars to cancel out all the sickening things that have happened. Right? Yeah. Like, that's so fucking disgusting. Yeah. Ugh. The night the news came out, I sat my parents down and told them that I had been assaulted.

To not look at the news because it's upsetting. Just know that I'm okay. I'm right here, and I'm okay. To not look at the news because it's upsetting. Just know that I'm okay. I'm right here and I'm okay. But halfway through telling them, my mom had to hold me because I could no longer stand up. I was not okay.

The night after it happened, he said he didn't know my name. Said he wouldn't be able to identify my face in a lineup. Didn't mention any dialogue between us. No words. Only dancing and kissing. Dancing is a cute term. Was it snapping fingers and twirling dancing, or just bodies grinding up against each other in a crowded room? I wonder if kissing was just faces sloppily pressed up against each other.

When the detective asked if he had planned on taking me back to his dorm, he said no. When the detective asked how we ended up behind the dumpster, he said he didn't know. He admitted to kissing other girls at the party, one of whom was my own sister, who pushed him away. He admitted to wanting to hook up with someone. I was the wounded antelope of the herd, completely alone and vulnerable, physically unable to fend for myself, and he chose me. Sometimes I think, if I hadn't gone, then this never would have happened. But then I realized, it would have happened just to somebody else. You were about to enter four years of access to drunk girls and parties, and if this is the foot you started off on, then it is right for you not to continue.

The night after it happened, he said he thought I liked it because I rubbed his back. A back rub. Never mentioned me voicing consent. Never mentioned us speaking. A back rub. One more time, in public news, I learned that my ass and vagina were completely exposed outside my breasts had been groped fingers had been jabbed inside me along with pine needles

and debris my bare skin and head had been rubbing against the ground behind a dumpster while an erect freshman was humping my half-naked unconscious body body. But I don't remember. So how do I prove I didn't like it? Ugh. Fuck. I know. Should I keep going? It's so good. Okay, I mean, I think it's really good.

I think it's excellent. I'm down to read the whole thing, but it's a lot. Okay. I keep thinking I have a straw. I have no straw. Do you need Kleenex? We've got a big... No, I'm fine.

We've got a bunch of paper towels over there in case you need that. And where? That's my impression of Norm earlier. Norm is sometimes blind. It's selective blindness. it's selective blindness so yeah we were eating sausage brunch to take this to a whole lighter level i will get back to this immediately we were eating sausage brunch norm was like i thought you said we just bought paper towels where are they he was standing in front of the paper literally asking for him when he's standing right by the paper towels. And it is an eight pack.

Okay. I thought there was no way this is going to trial. There were witnesses. There was dirt in my body. He ran but was caught. He's going to settle, formally apologize, and we will both move on. Which, I read this last night and I thought, absolutely. That's exactly what you would think. Instead, I was told he hired a powerful attorney, expert witnesses, private investigators who were

going to try and find details about my personal life to use against me, find loopholes in my story to invalidate me and my sister in order to show that this sexual assault was in fact a misunderstanding, that he was going to go to any length to convince the world he had simply been confused. I was not only told I was assaulted, I was told that because I couldn't remember, I technically could not prove it was unwanted. And that distorted me, damaged me, almost broke me. It is the saddest type of confusion to be told I was assaulted and nearly raped, blatantly out in the open, but we don't know if it counts as assault yet. I had to fight for an entire year to make it clear that there was something wrong with this situation.

When I was told to be prepared in case we didn't win, I said, I can't prepare for that. He was guilty the minute I woke up. No one can talk me out of the hurt he caused me. Worst of all, I was warned, because he now knows you don't remember, he's going to get to write the script. He can say whatever he wants, and no one can contest it. I had no power. I had no voice. I was defenseless. My memory loss would be used against me. My testimony was weak, was incomplete,

and I was made to believe that perhaps I'm not enough to win this. That's so damaging. His attorney constantly reminded the jury, the only one we can believe is Brock because she doesn't remember. The helplessness was traumatizing. Instead of taking time to heal, I was taking time to recall the night in excruciating detail in order to prepare for the attorney's questions that would be invasive, aggressive, and designed to steer me off course, to contradict myself, my sister, phrased in ways to manipulate my answers. Instead of his attorney saying, did you notice any abrasions? He said,

you didn't notice any abrasions, right? This was a game of strategy, as if I could be tricked out of my own worth. The sexual assault had been so clear, but instead, here I was at the trial, answering questions like, How old are you? How much do you weigh? What did you eat that day? Well, what did you have for dinner? Who made dinner? Did you drink with dinner? No, not even water? When did you drink? How much did you drink? What container did you drink out of? No, not even water. When did you drink? How much did you drink? What container did you drink out of? Who gave you the drink? How much do you usually drink? Who dropped you off at the party? At what time? But where exactly? What were you wearing? Why were you going to this party? What'd you do when you got there? Are you sure you did that? But what time did you

do that? What does this text mean? Who were you texting? When did you urinate? Where did you Jesus. You were a party animal? How many times did you black out? Did you party at frats? Are you serious with your boyfriend? Are you sexually active with him? When did you start dating? Would you ever cheat? Do you have a history of cheating? Oh my gosh. What do you mean when you said you wanted to reward him?

Do you remember what time you woke up? Were you wearing your cardigan? What color was your cardigan? Do you remember any more from that night? No? Okay. We'll let Brock fill the rest in oh it's infuriating yeah so i'm gonna skip ahead we will link to this yeah on on the website um because it's really really good if you have time how long did she speak for do you you know? I don't know. But I mean,

it would take a while to read all this. She speaks so eloquently. Like, it's so well written. It's so well written. Yes. And I like that she makes fun of him. I mean, I like that there's

a jabbiness to it. Yeah, absolutely. And then it came time for him to testify. This is where I became re-victimized. Yeah, absolutely. because he wasn't feeling well when he was suddenly chased and attacked. Then he learned I could not remember. So, one year later, as predicted, a new dialogue emerged. Brock had a strange new story, almost sounded like a poorly written young adult novel with kissing and dancing and hand-holding and lovingly tumbling to the ground. And most importantly in this new story, there was suddenly consent.

One year after the incident, he remembered, oh yeah, by the way, she actually said yes to everything. So he said he'd asked if I wanted to dance. Apparently I said yes. He'd asked if I wanted to go to his dorm. I said yes.

Then he asked if he could finger me and I said yes. Most guys don't ask can i finger you yeah usually there's a natural progression of things unfolding consensually not a q a but apparently i granted full permission so he's in the clear yeah yeah that's so right though you're not just like walking along with a guy. He's like, hey, can I finger bang you? God. Well, the answer would be no.

I was going to say, the reason no one's ever asked that question is because it would always be no. Okay, I'm going to skip ahead. I've already said that the jury found him guilty, right? Yes. Okay. So the jury already found him guilty right yes okay so the jury already found him guilty she talks about how validating that is to have a jury come back and yeah guilty but then she says then i read brock's statement so this is her reaction

i thought finally it is over finally he will own up to what he did, truly apologize, and we will both move on and get better. Then I read your statement. If you are hoping that one of my organs will implode from anger and I will die, I'm almost there. You are very close. Assault is not an accident. This is not a story of another drunk college hookup with poor decision So here's what he said. You said, I just couldn't make the best decision. Neither could she. Alcohol is not an excuse. Is it a factor? Yes. But alcohol was not the one who stripped me, fingered me, had my head dragging against the ground with me almost fully naked. Having too much to drink was an amateur mistake that I admit to, but it is not criminal. Everyone in this room has had a night where they regretted

drinking too much or knows someone close to them who has had a night where they have regretted drinking too much. Regretting drinking is not the same thing as regretting sexual assault. We were both drunk. The difference is I did not take off your pants and underwear, touch you inappropriately, and run away. That's the difference. You said, if I wanted to get to know her, I should have asked for her number rather than asking her to go back to my room. I'm not mad because you didn't ask for my number. Even if you did know me, I would not want to be in this situation. My own knows me but if he has to finger me behind a dumpster i would slap him yeah no girl wants to be in this situation nobody i don't care if you

have their number or not yeah so brock's statement was all like oh the drinking really made me do the thing and yeah drinking and i will talk to high school students about the dangers of drinking and oh, I am, oh, shut up. Yeah. Yeah. I think I'll stop there. I'm going to read the last paragraph. And finally, to girls everywhere, I am with you.

On nights when you feel alone, I am with you. When people doubt you or dismiss you, I am with you. I fought every day for you, so never stop fighting. I believe in you. I believe you. Lighthouses don't go running all over an island looking for boats to save. They just stand there shining. Although I can't save every boat, I hope that by speaking today, you absorbed a small amount of light,

a small knowing that you can't be silenced, a small satisfaction that justice was served, a small assurance that we are getting somewhere, and a big, big knowing that you are important, unquestionably, you are untouchable, you are beautiful, you are to be valued, respected, undeniably, every minute of every day you are powerful and nobody can take that away from you to girls everywhere i am with you thank you oh i know oh my gosh it's it's an incredible statement you've got to read the whole thing yes take the time to read the statement it's amazing yeah i remember when i like

when it first came out and like it went viral i remember sitting there and just like reading it and reading it and reading it and like it's unbelievable yeah do you remember where you were i was at work really yeah and so i would have to like kept like keep like coming back to it yeah i feel like i read it at night in bed and cried the whole time. Yeah. Okay, so that was powerful. Now Brock goes to jail for a really, really long time. Nope, he sure doesn't. Okay, so before we get to that, obviously Brock gave the judge his own 11-page statement,

and Brock's dad weighed in, too. And someone actually tweeted about it later and i am going to read you brock's dad's statement do you remember this no oh you're in for a treat are you ready yeah to feel so sorry for brock yes as it stands now, Brock's life, and by the way, this is much shorter, obviously. As it stands now, Brock's life has been deeply altered forever by the events of January 17th and 18th. He will never be his happy-go-lucky self with that easygoing personality and welcoming smile. His every waking minute is consumed with worry, anxiety, fear, and depression. What? Oh, Brandy, get ready.

Get ready. You can see this in his face, the way he walks, his weakened voice, his lack of appetite. Brock always enjoyed certain types of food and is a very good guy. What? I'm sorry. It's so stupid. Brandy, his appetite is hurt. Okay, so let's all respect that.

What? He's not a fucking victim. I was always excited to buy him a big ribeye steak to grill. Okay, you guys. Brandy has passed out. She's lost it. What the actual fuck?

This statement, this is insane. He doesn't get to buy him a big ribeye steak anymore? Oh. I mean, it just shows like, you wonder who raises someone who goes out and does this. Well, here we go.

I was always excited to buy him a big ribeye steak to grill or to get his favorite snack for him. I had to make sure to hide some of my favorite pretzels or chips because I knew they wouldn't be around for long after brock walked in after a long swim practice now he barely consumes any food and eats only to exist these verdicts have broken and shattered him and our family in so many ways his life will never be the one he dreamt about and worked so hard to achieve. Because he raped someone. Are you ready for the line? This is the line. Can I, hold on, let me hold on.

That is a steep price to pay for 20 minutes of action out of his 20 plus years of life are you fucking kidding me i wish i was kidding this is what he said holy or what he wrote to the judge i I don't know that he said it, but yeah. 20 minutes of action. And Brock can't eat steaks anymore. He only eats to live. Holy fucking shit. The fact that he now has to register as a sex offender for the rest of his life forever alters where he can live, visit, work, and how he will be able to interact with people

and organizations uh yeah that's kind of the point of the registry registry wow it's like it puts some restrictions on sex offenders hmm wow what i know as his father is that incarceration is not the appropriate punishment for Brock. He has no prior criminal history and has never been violent to anyone, including his actions on the night of January 17th, 2015. Okay. What? Oh, because it was consensual. Remember, Brandy, he came down and was like, we come from France.

May I touch your genitals? Can I finger you? All good. Consent. You know, they had that totally natural dialogue. I will deliver pleasure now. I no longer crave ribeye steaks. Boo-hoo. Holy shit. holy shit brock can do so many positive things as a contributor to society and is totally committed to educating other college-age students about the dangers of alcohol consumption and sexual promiscuity. I hate this so much.

First of all, again, alcohol is a factor. It's not the reason. Not the reason. And sexual promiscuity? No. That is not the same as raping someone. Everyone can go hoe it up all they want. Yeah.

And as long as everyone involved is conscious and consenting, there's no crime. Holy shit, I can't believe this statement it's yeah i oh by having people like brock educate others on college campuses is how society can begin to break the cycle of binge drinking and its unfortunate results unfortunate results yeah it's unfortunate results unfortunate results yeah it's unfortunate because okay you know that night when you had too much fireball and you raped all those people it just happened it couldn't not happen because you had too much to drink out of my control it's like you get raped and you get raped and you guys see oprah raping

oh god it wasn't my fault it wasn't it was the alcohol oh man oh no i can't believe norman gave you that beer Oh, man. Oh, no. I can't believe Norman gave you that beer, knowing you were going to go on a full-on rape rampage. Sorry, I don't know how many beers it takes. I guess we'll find out.

I'm one deep. Probation is the best answer for Brock in this situation And allows him to give back to society in a net positive way That's some fucking bullshit is what that is Very respectfully, Dan A. Turner Fuck off, Dan A. Turner I agree, fuck all the way off And I'm not just saying that because i'm so drunk yeah i have had one beer so it's not my fault i'm telling you to fuck right off

it's the alcohol on june 2nd judge aaron persky sentenced brock i can't handle it. To six months in county jail. Ugh. Facing 14, facing up to 14. Yeah, six months. Six months in county jail. Yeah. Plus three years of probation and to be registered as a sex offender, which I don't know if you know this. That will impact where he can live. Oh, my goodness. And the will impact where he can live oh my goodness and the types of organizations he can join

hmm what could he have done to deserve that when he explained the sentence the judge said that he'd taken into account the fact that Brock was drunk that he had good character letters and that a longer sentence

would have a severe impact on brock what about what emily has to live with exactly you don't think that has a fucking severe impact on her this is again it makes me think about those articles you clearly see who a person sympathizes with yeah i mean if you're if you're sitting there thinking about oh what about the impact on this little swimmer well clearly you've chosen a side you've chosen someone you care about more yeah and what the fuck you chose the attempted rapist and whatever the hell else he did. Convicted finger banger. Yeah.

But don't worry, Brandy. I know you're thinking that six months was too long for Brock to sit in the county jail. Because, you know, not good pretzels. A big impact on him. No ribeyes no the ribeyes in prison are terrible shoe leather so you're right six months was too long so he only served three months and he was in protective custody the whole time of course he was custody the whole time of course he was uh if oh that's infuriating yeah because if i'm emily doe after that i'm thinking well what the fuck was all that for yeah i mean my fucking written statement was longer than that yeah people wonder why rape victims don't come forward this is why this is it this is like the poster for why yeah she

she worked through this system she did the whole thing and then he goes to the county jail for three months yeah unreal yeah as part of the terms of his release he was ordered to go back home and live with his mom and dad in sugar creek township ohio which i'd never heard of so i looked it up and their wikipedia so it's a small town um their wikipedia page has him listed as a notable resident which notable i mean yeah can you imagine being from that town where you're like oh oh yes yeah your friendly neighborhood rapist but the day he was released his mommy called the police because there were protesters outside of their house. And Whittle Block was scared. So now this is kind of funny, but also not very nice.

The protesters had a bunch of signs. Sorry. One read, no sympathy for rapists. Another one read, if I rape Brock, will I only do three months? Another one read, shoot your local rapist. Oh. And the person holding that sign was also brandishing a gun. Oh.

And Ohio is an open carry state. Yeah. So that was, I guess, just fine. But very threatening. Yeah, it is very threatening. Now, I know we'll all be sad to hear that this was all very tough on Brock. He spent three whole months in jail, was facing three whole years on probation, was registered as a sex offender, was banned from Stanford, banned from competitive swimming.

And he decided that wasn't fair. So he looked at himself in the mirror and he said, let's go to court. He got himself a new lawyer. Oh god, this guy just

tried to... Yeah. Fucking hate this dude. Yeah. He appealed his case. His attorney, Eric Malthop, argued that Brock didn't get a fair trial. Emily Doe was super drunk. And Brock didn't get to have any character witnesses to testify about his swimming career or how good he was in school or how honest he is. Fuck right off.

And plus, he should have never been convicted of attempted rape because he never even wanted intercourse. He only wanted outer course. It's not a real thing. only wanted outer course. It's not a real thing. That's not a thing. Anybody would. Oh, I was just reaching for the Diet Pepsi. No. No one.

So, um... So, obviously, that was just to get around some legal stuff. so um so obviously that was just to get around some legal stuff but also because that was all Brock wanted that night was some good old fashioned outer course Eric made this argument in front of a three judge panel and by the time he got

to the outer course stuff one of the judges was like I absolutely don't understand what you're talking about he got to the outer court stuff, one of the judges was like, I absolutely don't understand what you're talking about. Now, this may shock you, but the appellate court was like, no. No.

Go back to Ohio. Notable resident, Brock Turner. What impact did Brock Turner and Emily Doe have on the justice system? Quite a bit. When Judge Aaron Persky sentenced Brock to six months in county jail,

a lot of people were outraged. So they did something about it. They started a very rare process where voters can, okay, I'm quoting from an article, disrobe a judge. I know, that sounds disgusting. It just means they're no longer a judge. Let's hope a lot. And in June of 2018, California voters recalled Judge Aaron Persky.

He is the first California judge to be recalled in more than 80 years. This is a super rare thing. You have to really fuck up as a judge to have this happen to you. Well, I think he did. He certainly did. Yeah. I just worry about what impact that had on this old white man's life. Hope he's eating ribeyes somewhere.

But that's not all. After the trial, the California state legislature broadened the definition of rape so that it would also cover digital penetration. Good. And they passed a three-year minimum sentence, prison sentence, for sexually assaulting an unconscious or intoxicated person. Yes, which, duh. Duh. How was that not already on the books? But whatever. Those bills became law in 2016.

As for Emily Doe, I hope she's doing well. Yeah. Ugh. Ugh. That was so frustrating. I do want to say, so I pulled from a lot of sources, but the Wikipedia page on this was just killing it. Yeah.

So it's a lot of Wikipedia there, but but that story just drives me nuts it's disgusting it just it shows how hard it is to get justice i mean she was unconscious she was like two men walked up to it happening and the rapist tried to run away attempted rapist you know whatever digital rapist yeah that sounds like he did it online i know i i always get confused by digital we gotta say finger bang or something yeah oh i hate that case you did an excellent job but it's not it's fucking terrible and there's no

there's no payoff no there's not it's not like oh and now he's in prison as he should be yeah no he's in Ohio his mommy alright let's talk about something better in Ohio. Little is mommy. All right, let's talk about something better.

Oh, well, anything would be better. Well, let me pull up my show notes here. So, I've already talked a little bit about my best friend, Dax Shepard. So, this is very hurtful to me. So, in my family, they have a joke about how far into a night we can get before I mention Dax. Like he's somebody that I actually know.

Yes. I really love Dax Shepard and I love his podcast Armchair Expert. I've talked about it on here before. Oh, good. That's a little podcast that needs a lot of promotion. No, it's like the second most popular podcast in the world. But I was listening to his episode. So he releases two episodes a week.

Like he has like a celebrity guest and then he has like an expert guest. It's called Experts on Expert. Yeah. And so I was listening to last week's Expert on Expert. And he had this documentary filmmaker on and it is it as if she is making documentaries specifically for us kristen oh bless her you have to listen to this episode i swear you will love it i know you're very reluctant to listen to this podcast no i've listened to it because you're jealous of my love for dad and that too but

she made a little documentary you maybe have heard of called thought crimes oh her last name is car i know all about her it's erin lee Yeah. She also made a little documentary called Mommy Dead and Dearest. Yeah, I'm a big fan of hers. She just released a new documentary, At the Heart of Gold. What's that about? It's about the gymnastics. Oh, Larry Nassar. It just came out on HBO.

Get out of here so I can watch it. Oh my God. And soon she has another documentary coming out called I Love You, Now Die, which is about Michelle Carter. Oh! Yes. It is like... It is like she makes documentaries just for us.

This is going to sound really strange, but I loved her father. Yes. Her father was David Carr. Yeah. A columnist for The New York Times. Yes. He wrote a great memoir. She talks about it on this on this episode.

Oh, OK. Then I'll. You have to listen to it. OK, OK. It's so good. She's so well spoken. Yeah. She talks about her dad a lot on it and she talks about how she makes her documentaries she talks a lot about gill the

cannibal cop yes what'd she say that he thought that they were in a relationship no yeah like she and him because she interviewed him at his house. He thought that they were in a relationship. They were at least like headed for a relationship. She thought there was he thought there was something going on between them. Like she said that he still listens to everything she does. We want like anytime she does an interview, he listens to it and they get super pissed about it. And he reaches out to her or writes shitty comments about it online. What? You have to listen to this or writes shitty comments about it online. What?

You have to listen to this episode! Okay, I do have to listen. I mean, because that guy freaked me out. Remember when we stalked his Instagram? Yes, he's very strange. Yes! If you guys don't know what we're talking about, we're talking about the cannibal cop, which Kristen covered on

episode... 31. Excellent. talking about the cannibal cop which uh kristen covered on episode 31 excellent we disagreed on that case that was such a good one it was such a good one i love it when we disagree because it doesn't happen that often we agree that he's a fucking creep oh yeah yes but i'm telling you i can't wait to watch um at the heart of gold and i love you now die oh oh yeah because that larry nassar stuff i mean the victims a lot of them stood up in court and read their stuff out loud and that was on YouTube and man you better believe I was watching everything. So that's out now. The I Love You, the Michelle Carter one TBD.

Alright. Yeah. I was listening to it the whole time going Kristen needs to fucking listen to this. She's anti-Dax Shepard for some reason. Can't imagine why. I put in all these years with you hoping that i can be number one in your speed dial

man okay second item on the list okay leslie van Houten. Does that mean anything to you? Sounds familiar. So she's one of the Manson girls. Oh. So I covered that case on our very first episode, which is a piece of crap. Don't even bother listening to it. Yeah. We didn't know what we were doing,

but we had hearts of gold. We should, like, recover those cases, because that's my favorite case. Mine wasn't even a real case. Yeah because that's my favorite case. Mine wasn't even a real case. Yeah, that's true. Mine was just a confession. What the hell?

We didn't know what we were doing, folks. Anyway, look how far we've come. So she was one of the Manson girls. She was present for, I believe, only one night of the murders. But she was convicted alongside of them. She was sentenced to death. The death sentences were commuted to life sentences when California did away with the death penalty. So she was granted parole earlier this year.

Whoa. Or late last year. I can't remember which. And she's been granted parole multiple times before however the governor has always blocked her release and overturned her parole and he just did again this week it's a new governor but he overturned her parole and she will remain in prison wow yeah huh what do you think that? I think it's interesting that the governor has that power and that multiple times a parole board has said that she is no longer a danger. But

I'm going to be honest, I feel more comfortable with her in prison. I mean, Charles Manson's dead now. So it's I don't know. Yeah. But those those those women they really pledged their lives to him so how old is she now though i mean so she was the youngest of the group um but i believe she's in her 60s oh she could still kill some people for sure let's see how old she is she's 69 okay in my last show now that i have um um look up uh who shared. Get on our Reddit. Whoever shared us the Bill Hader meeting.

Oh. Meeting his hero, Keith Morrison. Oh. I lost my mind over that video. But someone also shared it with us on Twitter. Same person. Oh, same person. Okay.

Same person. Lester D88. Okay. So we have talked about how much we love Keith Morrison and how much we love Bill Hader's impression of Keith Morrison. And so Lester shared us this video of Bill Hader meeting Keith Morrison. And it is amazing. It's so good.

It's everything I could have ever dreamed it would be. First of all, Bill Hader is so charming. I love Bill Hader. And then he's like totally fangirling. Yes. He just keeps saying, this is so rad. I'll never know if I'm going to get it. What I loved was at first, before Keith Morrison even popped up, they just took him into like the Dateline production area. Yeah.

And he was like oh I've seen this one. And he quoted the woman. Yes. Yes. And he was like oh this guy's a true fan. He is a true fan. Speaking of which. Yeah. Bill Hader. Do you watch Barry? I do not. I'm going to. Oh it's so great. I want to watch it so bad. I also

want to watch Chernobyl which I've also not started yet brandy what the hell i what are your excuses list them now i've been busy i i will start them soon okay did watch a hell of a movie this weekend that i loved bad times at the El Royale. Very Brandy movie. Got a real Quentin Tarantino vibe to it. Highly recommended. I loved it. Okay. I will never watch it. You won't, but you should. Okay.

It's so fucking good. Okay. What do you got for show notes? I just like had like 12 pages of shit. Well, you see, I've been really busy because we just bought a house and then i was crying because my best friend forgot i was crying because my best friend is actually best friends with jack so i guess i don't really have best friends uh no that's uh that's me literally the last time so i'm one time when i mentioned jack

shepherd on this podcast i like tweeted him about it and then he responded to me and you almost died my feet didn't touch the ground for like three days are you mentioning him now so you have an excuse to reach out to him again i know at what point do you think he'll put you on like the creeper list oh i'm probably already there yeah yeah so i brought some i brought some nostalgia for you today i loved it so i brought our fifth grade class picture kristin and i are hanging out in the back row kristin's the tallest person in the class yes. And it's a real throwback. It is. We both look pissed.

But you know what? Almost everyone in that photo looks pissed. Yeah. So I blame the photographer. Yeah, me too. We don't look bad, though. No. I was expecting us to look real awkward.

We both have some killer bangs. Well, sure. Yeah. It was the 90s. That's right. We had no choice. We were required to have bangs. Well, sure. Yeah. It was the 90s. That's right. We had no choice. We were required to have bangs. Man, I look so much like my niece.

Yeah, that's crazy. I tell you what. It is really fun to look at this picture now and badmouth half the people in it. We would never. no and then i also brought you a picture from our trip to florida um when we were 16 15 yeah 16 it was between sophomore and junior year and we took a picture in the dark on the beach for some reason. So you see us and you would never know where we were. Nope. Other than you're in a bikini. Looking real good.

That's right. We're rocking some jorts, though. We both have jorts on. Yeah. And I think we're killing them. I think so, too. Hey, thanks for tuning in to another episode of Let's Go to Court After Dark. I think we'll get back to a normal recording schedule here.

It is after midnight. It is. It's already tomorrow. Thanks for hanging in with us, folks. Please join us on social media. We're on Facebook. We're on Twitter. We're on Instagram.

We're on YouTube. We're on Reddit. Find us all those places. Please head on over to iTunes. Leave us on Instagram. We're on YouTube. We're on Reddit. Find us all those places. Please head on over to iTunes. Leave us a rating. Leave us a review. And then join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics.

Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from the Victim Impact Statement, the New York Times, the Palo Alto Weekly, the Washington Post, and Wikipedia. And I got my info from an article by Seamus McGraw for the Crime Library, Stuff Magazine, and Wikipedia.

For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.