Let's Go To Court! - 75: The Jenny Jones Show & Brandi’s Most Horrifying Case

Episode Date: June 26, 2019

Brandi starts us off with a story that makes her skin crawl. Seriously. She dry heaved like five times telling this story. It starts innocently enough. In late 2007, Brian and Susan Trost bought their dream home. Their 2,400-square-foot house had gorgeous views of the Whitmoor Country Club’s lush golf course. Soon after they moved in, the Trosts gave their new home a deep clean. But not long after they’d cleaned the house, Susan noticed a spider web. She figured it was no big deal — she’d just missed it. But she figured wrong. Then Kristin tells us about what is arguably the most controversial episode of any daytime talk show, ever. On March 6, 1995, the Jenny Jones Show taped an episode on same sex secret crushes. Scott Amedure was on the show to discuss his secret crush on an acquaintance named Jonathan Schmitz. Before Jonathan came on stage, Jenny asked Scott to describe the fantasies he’d had about Jonathan. Scott laughingly obliged. When Jonathan finally came on stage and learned that Scott was the one who’d brought him on the show, Jonathan seemed surprised. He told the Jenny Jones show that he was a heterosexual. All in all, the segment didn’t seem like much. Scott had a crush; Jonathan didn’t feel the same way. But then, three days after the taping, Jonathan bought a shotgun, drove to Scott’s home, and shot him twice in the chest. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: Gay and Trans Panic Defense, LGBT Bar “Jury: Jones’ show liable; awards $25 million,” by Justin Hyde for the Associated Press “Dad of accused gay-killer rips TV host, victim,” by Todd Nissen for Reuters “Murder trial under way in talk show slaying,” Associated Press “Jurors watch ‘Gay Crush’ episode,” Associated Press “Woman describes Schmitz’s manner before fatal shooting,” Associated Press “Lawyer: Make Jones testify,” by Greta Guest for the Associated Press “Defense lawyer angles for manslaughter verdict,” by L.L. Brasier, Detroit Free Press “Witness: Two at bar together,” by Justin Hyde for the Associated Press “Same Sex Secret Crushes” episode of the Jenny Jones Show on YouTube In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Extreme case of brown recluse spiders drives owners from Weldon Spring home” by Susan Weich, St. Louis Post-Dispatch “State Farm Was NOT There When This Family’s House Was INFESTED With Thousands Of DEADLY SPIDERS” by Eric Owens, Daily Caller “Spider Man” by John Amick, The Pitch

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts! I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court! On this episode, I'll talk about The Jenny Jones Show. And I'll be covering my most

horrifying case to date. Oh no. Well, what? Does, like, two loving families murder each other at the same time like i can't imagine this is a it's a real doozy okay i'm so i messaged you about it because i was it's short okay which i typically don't do like we like to do nice long ones um there's very little available about the actual trial there's very little available about the actual trial. There's very little available about the actual trial in this case.

But I've been wanting to do this case for a while and I just felt like I absolutely had to cover it. So today's the day. Okay. Do it. Brian and Susan Trost. T-R-O-S-T. Trost. Trost. What do you think? Trost, T-R-O-S-T, Trost, Trost. What do you think?

Trost. I've been saying it, Trost, in my head this whole time. Should I say Trost? Say whatever you want to say. Brian and Susan Trost, according to Kristen, were thrilled. It was October of 2007, and they had just purchased their dream home in Weldon Spring, Missouri. Weldon Spring is a suburb of St. Louis. And the Trost's dream home was located in the upscale Whitmore Country Club.

So the Whitmore boasts a host of amenities, including a gym, swimming pools complete with a kid's swim team, and of course, a beautiful golf course. So I looked at this country club's website today, because I wanted to see if I could find their membership fees on there. Of course, they're not posted anywhere. But I did see pictures of the golf course, and they are beautiful. And then I also found this little tidbit which i felt like i needed to put in here so there was a section that i had to click on that said dress code of course so here's their official dress code as listed on their website and hold on this dress code is for it's for members so golfing so there's actually like different. So there's like what's acceptable on the golf course and then what's acceptable in the clubhouse.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Members will choose to dress in a fashion befitting the surroundings and atmosphere provided in the setting of the club. It is also expected that members will advise their guests of the dress code requirements. Gentlemen and ladies are requested to dress in a fashion appropriate for the occasion the dress dress standards of the club may be changed or waived by the club periodically for special activities and functions so this this next section is

specifically clubhouse dress code okay individuals using the facilities are required to dress properly proper dress will be determined by use of the facility and included in the announcement of events no swimming attire is allowed in any food or lounge area swimsuit cover-ups are required in the concession stand for service informal attire is acceptable in the trophy room the sand trap which i believe is like a bar an actual sand the bunker which is another bar and on the deck and in the trophy room the sand trap which i believe is like a bar not an actual sand the bunker which is another bar and on the deck um and in the lounge sorry no hats allowed indoors please denim of any color is prohibited anywhere in the clubhouse or on the golf course with the exception of the lounge and the sand trap acceptable for men shirts with collars and

sleeves slacks jogging outfits made of nylon or silk wait you can wear a jogging suit but you can't wear jeans yeah okay only your finest silk jogging um golf shorts or walking shorts are considered appropriate attire for women, dresses, skirts, slacks, jogging outfits of nylon or silk, golf shorts, mid-length shorts and blouses and colorless shirts with sleeves and sleeveless shirts with collars are considered appropriate attire. So if it has sleeves, it doesn't need a collar. If it's got no sleeves, must have a collar.

Okay. Okay. Sounds like a really fun place. Not at all uptight. Unacceptable for men. No tank tops, t-shirts, fishnet tops, cutoffs, sweatpants, bathing suits, tennis or other athletic shorts above mid-length are not permitted. Okay. No caps or visors in the clubhouse.

For women, halter tops, fishnet tops. I mean, how many people are wearing fishnet tops? Not that many. Bathing suits, sweatpants, tennis dresses, athletic athletic shorts and cutoffs are not permitted don't you dare come in here in your cutoffs and your fishnet shirt that's exactly what i was gonna pair up anyway brian and susan's home was located at oh hold the phone. Okay, go ahead. 84 Gillette Field Close. Ooh, that popped up real fast. So if you look at it on Zillow, you can actually see pictures of the inside and everything.

I'm doing it. Hmm. Hmm. So. It's not as. Not as fancy as you would think. Not as fancy as I was expecting. So the home boasted views of the fourth and fifth holes of the golf course.

It was built in 1988. And the home was a 2,400 square foot atrium ranch with an open floor plan, four bedrooms, and three bathrooms. So, yeah, if you look at the pictures of it, I mean, it's a nice house. Oh, yeah. But it's not, the finishings aren't particularly. Updated. No, not really at all. I think it needs a nice house but it's not the finishings aren't particularly updated no not really at all i think it needs a lot of updates but i like so they call it an atrium ranch because it has that

like overlook with the windows and stuff yeah i think that's kind of cool but so the trosts paid 450 000 for this house in 2007 and they were thrilled with their purchase. This was their dream home. It was in an idyllic setting. It was exactly what they'd always wanted. But problems in the home began almost immediately. Were they newlyweds? No, they have a four-year-old son. So I don't know exactly how old they were, but didn't mention anything about them being newlyweds or anything like that one day when susan came out like of her bedroom and was walking

through the living room so the layout of the house the living room looks right into that area that they call the atrium so she noticed like a hanging like cobweb in that area and this was october they'd lived there only a short time, and they'd done like a deep clean when they moved in. And she's like, what did I miss that when I cleaned? And so she cleaned it. And then over the next couple days, she kept finding these webs in different parts of the ceiling,

specifically kind of concentrated in that atrium area. But then she also started finding them on light fixtures. And she's like, is dust settling? And that's what's what's causing this you know she just wasn't sure why it's the most horrifying case to you 100 uh-huh but it didn't stop there this wasn't a case of just dust settling and webs everywhere are you gonna tell people i will i will get there don't you worry i will get there she't you worry i will get there she cleaned you know she was meticulous about cleaning she cleaned up all the webs but she could never she couldn't stop them it was like every day there was a new web

and then it escalated one day she was standing in the kitchen and there was a spot of um wallpaper that had kind of loosened from the wall. There was like a flap and she saw something moving under it. So she peeled the wallpaper back. It was a mama spider. It was a spider. There was a spider beneath the wallpaper. I'm not as scared as you are.

And then it escalated again. Well, it wasn't personal. One day, Susan was in the shower. And she caught something out of the corner of her eye. Was it a man with a knife? No. No, it was just a fucking spider. It was worse than that.

It was worse. It was worse than that. It was a large spider. And it dropped from the ceiling into the shower and she managed to jump out of the way just in time and it washed down the drain oh i feel what it must be like i have a legitimate full-blown case of arachnophobia oh yeah like no joke about it i panic when i see spiders like i am serious i have a serious fear of spiders but there is a honest to God origin for my fear.

So when I was a little kid, I was afraid of spiders because my mom was. And there was like a time when I was I must have been I had to have been six because I think my mom and Steve had just gotten married and they got married like right before I turned six. And so I imagine I was about six. We lived in this duplex where like on the main floor, there were two bedrooms and that's where me and my sister's bedrooms were. And then you went like down into the basement and that's where the master bedroom was. And so I remember I went down into the master bedroom to tell my mom goodnight. And so I told her goodnight. and then I was walking up the stairs to go to my bedroom and I tripped on the stairs and my mom screamed for me to get off the stairs like screamed horrified

whatever and my stepdad came running there was a giant spider on the stairs and I had fallen like right next to it yeah and so that started like a little bit of a fear of spiders i mean just to see my mom react in that manner if you're thinking that's stupid and i shouldn't be afraid of spiders you're right that's not enough to start a full-blown case of arachnophobia we're gonna need something more here you go let me set the scene for you picture it picture it what year is it two two thousand i'm not positive i believe i was 13 um i believe it was probably 2000 i think april of 2000 i could have been 14 might have been a little further into 2000 anyway we had just moved into the house that like we i

lived in when we went to high school and everything the house that was right by the high school um it was this big beautiful house yeah um but we had not lived there long and we were having a little bit of a spider issue so it's kind of common when you go from like somebody who's lived in a house for a really long time and they move their stuff out and then you move your stuff in. It kind of like, you know, upsets. Fills to the brim with spiders. No, not exactly. But it upsets stuff and, you know, whatever.

And this particular house had shake shingling on the outside of it. So it made it look like this. I really loved it. Yeah, it was beautiful. Very cool cottagey looking. But then the previous owners had had a large wood pile um stacked up next to the house as well so the combination of those shingles on the outside and then that wood pile had made this house like a spider magnet and my parents had put in so this

was my my dad and lisa's house my parents had put in they'd gotten rid of that wood pile they'd put in a gas log in the fireplace and all of that. And so I remember that my dad kept doing, like, attic bombs and stuff like that because they just couldn't get rid of, like, the spiders. And it's not just any spider that's attracted to wood piles like that. In the Midwest, it's brown recluse spiders, which are scary and disgusting. And we'll talk more about them later. But so we were having like a bit of a spider problem. And I already, as I mentioned, didn't like spiders at the time, but it wasn't anything crazy. Our house wasn't infested or anything like that. You just saw them way more than you wanted to. So my bathroom that I showered in had like this little crank window that you had to open when you were going to take a shower to let the steam out. And so one day I had gone in, I was

getting ready to take a shower and I started my, I was about to start my water, but I went to open the window before I started the water and I couldn't get the window to crank. It was like jammed. And so I like put like one foot in the bathtub to get better leverage. And I went to grab the window lever. And then what happened, Brandy? And then I saw something above me. And I looked up. And I looked up and there were hundreds and hundreds of baby spiders coming down upon me. There had been a fucking hatching in my bathroom.

I screamed like I was being murdered. Yeah. And I ran out of my bathroom. My dad came running up and he's like, what's going on? What's going on? I'm like, there are fucking spiders everywhere. I don't think I said fucking because I was 13, but I was losing my bathroom. My dad came running up and he's like, what's going on? What's going on? I'm like, there are fucking spiders everywhere. I don't think I said fucking because I was 13, but I was losing my mind. And I just remember my dad going in there and being like, holy shit. And he just like closed the door.

So the like mother had laid her egg sack like in the window and then it had hatched in there. And I was the one to then it had hatched in there and i was the one to discover it and that is my origin story of how i became full-on terrified of spiders brandy i have to tell you something what your origin story is bullshit no it's not okay no that happened to you yes i was like that's not bullshit that 100 happened but you were freaked out about let me yeah i've always hated spiders yes let me tell you my memory okay okay we were this had to have been middle school um we were camping could have been around the same time i was in middle school when the hatching happened i really think this was before i really think it was before are you talking about the shower spider of course i am yeah i remember this i don't remember if it was before or after

i think it was before but i remember we were in separate shower stalls yeah at a campground at a campground and i i legit thought you were being attacked yeah which one could be scarier i'd be like but no uh a spider was in the stall there was a spider in my stall listen don't call my origin story bullshit. It's not bullshit. It's not bullshit. This happened to me and it was horrible. And I am one who my family would say sometimes exaggerates things. Like I have this memory of nearly drowning when I got knocked over by a wave when I was really little

at the first time I went to the ocean. My family says that did not happen, but it's my fucking memory. This story 100% happened exactly like I told it. I completely believe that it happened exactly how you told it. I just think this notion that like, I was always just a normal amount afraid, but then I became very, no, you were always like, you were always so afraid. So I haven't, yes, I've always been afraid of spiders, but this like ratcheted it to the next level and I full

on arachnophobia I have gotten better as I've gotten older I can kill a spider if it's on the floor and below a certain size if it's on the ceiling I am powerless because I am like the place on fire I am terrified it's gonna fall on me I cannot handle it yeah so yeah so to this day when I take a shower I shake out my shower curtain and I look at all four corners of my of my shower to make sure there's nothing in there with me you know what this is not nice to say and what I'm just picturing like so i have a thing where when i'm washing my face i don't you know i don't like put my face down in the so in the water for too long because i'm ready for the moment where like i look in the mirror i look down get my face but my head comes back up and there's a man standing behind me so i'm you know okay so i have said this before people think that

like when they shower and they like get the soap you have to close your eyes and so they're like in that moment all they're thinking of is that there's going to be a murderer there to me it's the same exact thing only when i open my eyes it's going to be a spider there yeah so i'm i'm thinking like when you're looking up at the ceiling yeah the guy's right behind you i totally missed the murderer because i'm focused on the spider my dad had to go in there and like spray the whole bathroom and then like kill thousands of spiders, like baby spiders by hand. Ew, why did you put your thumb out like that? Because that's how he did it, I think. He gave each one of them a thumbs up until they died.

I gave him a thumbs down, Kristen, clearly. My dad was my hero that day. he saved me from all of those spiders thank you TP that's right TP how did we well never point out that yeah you know we've also never pointed out what that David is DP2 oh Randy you're dating dp he's actually technically a dp junior so okay well i don't even know what to say to that anyway back to the story so she survives that brush with death yeah that spider falls from the ceiling while she's in the shower yeah just you know minding her own fucking business she manages to get it to wash down the drain she survives but she's like something is going on here these are all this is a lot of spiders and then it escalated further a short time later

susan was in the living room and she heard her four year old son in the basement and he was screaming he was just saying spider spider spider over and over again and so she rushed downstairs and there was her four year old baby boy with a spider right next to his foot it was very large

she managed to capture it this time ew why not just kill it because she wanted to know what she was dealing with okay okay and so they captured it and she turned to the internet first and then confirmed with a like a licensed pest control person okay that this spider was in fact a brown recluse okay yeah that is scary yes so let's talk a little bit about what a brown recluse spider is freak me out yeah so in the midwest we only have like three spiders that are poisonous one of them is the black widow one of them is the i can't remember the other one. And the third is the brown recluse.

What's the other one? I have no idea. You're the one with the spider phobia. Oh, so it might not be specifically in the Midwest. So there's also a Chilean recluse, which is found in North America, but I've never heard of it. So maybe we don't have those in the Midwest. So maybe we only have the brown recluse and the black widow. I've never seen a black widow. Thank God. I would just die right then. But I've seen a bunch of brown recluses. So the brown recluse spider is a spider

with necrotic venom. So that means when it bites and it breaks the skin and is able to inject its venom and it actually causes that tissue to die. They can require serious medical attention if you get bit. Because the thing is that typically the bite itself doesn't hurt. And you don't know for a couple days that you've been bitten. And by that point, damage has started below the skin's surface. And by the time you know it and it reaches the outside, there's all of this necrosis that has taken place below your skin.

It's disgusting. The look on your face right now is like the time a couple weeks ago when you described the time you had too much fireball. Yeah. Like, it looks like you're going to throw up just telling this story. I had to read so much about spiders. That's why I'm so surprised you did this. It's like, that going to throw up just telling this story. I had to read so much about spiders for myself. That's why I'm so surprised you did this.

It's like, that's just torturing yourself. This is really terrible. I posted something in the Discord the other day about how I wanted somebody to feel sorry for me for my own poor decisions. That's what I'm doing in this moment. I did this to myself, and I'm like, feel sorry for me. You guys, I didn't choose this episode oh wait i did so brown recluse spiders are typically between like a quarter of an inch and three quarters of an inch in size and they're um they're identifiable by a marking on their body. They've got this like. Caution tape. It's a violin shaped marking on their like abdomen.

Only it's on their back. Not their. What do you call that? Back. But it's not. It's not like thorax. Is that what you call it in a bug? I have no idea.

I don't fucking know. Anyway. So because of that marking, like they're more easily identifiable. You can tell that it is a brown recluse. Right. And because of that marking, they are often called a fiddleback spider, a brown fiddler, or a violin spider. Those sound way too nice. I know.

Around here we call them brown recluses. Yeah. So they are known to live like in kind of like dark, damp areas. They like cool areas. So they stay in basements they stay in attics they stay around wood they're drawn to wood here is to me some of the scariest things about brown recluse spiders they can go like 10 months without a food source oh no and still be just fine that's scary and they live for two years they have a two-year

lifespan yeah yeah that that's crazy and they inbreed so they so they've got no class multiply very quickly it's so terrible why did you do this to yourself you look like you're gonna cry oh god it's so bad so susan's worst fears are confirmed this is a brown recluse spider that was within inches of her son and so she does what anyone does she calls a pest control company and they come out and they spray the house and they set traps and for a little bit it worked they caught several of them on the traps saw fewer of them like scurrying across the floor whatever and then all of a sudden they kept seeing them again and so they called another pest company out and this pest company said oh yeah spraying that stuff won't work because they roost in your walls and so no yeah and so this pest control company cut holes in several sections of the drywall pulled out insulation and put a pesticide powder inside

the walls they did the same thing in the attic again, it worked for a little while until it didn't. All of a sudden, spider activities back. Lots and lots of spiders. Finally, it got to the point that they were seeing so many spiders that Susan described it as if the house was bleeding spiders. Oh, God. They were falling out of ceiling vents. They were, it was just, they were. Yuck.

It was like you would have to duck when you were entering a room. Ultimately, they were, they fled the house. Yeah, sure. Because of it. And they filed a lawsuit against the previous owners of the home for failing to disclose

that this house had a spider problem. Yeah, that it was already occupied. Yeah spiders by spiders yes so this is fascinating i love this kind of stuff i know i think it is fascinating but it's horrifying as well no no i mean more in the general sense of like because i don't know the rules on what you have to disclose yeah i was about to ask that. Like, I don't know. I mean, obviously, these people had to be aware that there was an infestation in this house. Yes, of course. Because they saw signs of it. The Trost saw signs of it immediately upon moving into the house.

Yeah. So this previous tenants knew that it was going on. I'm trying to remember. Tina and David Galt are the previous owners. Tenants knew that it was going on. I'm trying to remember. Tina and David Galt are the previous owners. So in 2008, the Trost filed a claim with their insurance, with their own insurance, State Farm. And then they also filed a civil lawsuit against the Galt family for not disclosing the brown recluse infestation.

So initially, State Farm declined their claim because they said spiders do not qualify as physical damage. Depends on the number of spiders. Right? Yeah. I think that's exactly right. We'll get there. Okay. Okay. And this claim, this lawsuit against the previous owners, in 2011, it ended up going all the way to jury trial.

Wow. Yeah. And at the trial, like I said, there's not that much available about the trial itself. By the way, when you say all the way to, I was like, this one's in the Supreme Court. No, no, no. All the way to jury trial, which I think is unusual for a civil case well sure yeah something like this specifically you would think that it would just settle or you know whatever so this is what I think is interesting at the trial the Galt's

were their representation was paid for by their insurance company which was also State Farm, which is the same company that the Trost filed their claim against. Yeah. I think that's very interesting. Yes. And seems like a big conflict of interest. Well, sure. How can you have a stake in both sides? But I don't know.

And the biggest impact from testimony that was given at trial came from this guy, Jamel Sandage. And he is very interesting. So I read this whole article about him in The Pitch. And it is so interesting to me. So this article in The Pitch is called Spider-Man. So this, I'm guessing it's Jamel, J-a-m-e-l sandage he at the time that he testified was a professor at ku the university of kansas in lawrence with a phd in i think it's like ecology and then something else but he did his doctorate specifically in studying brown recluse spiders so he's like the country's foremost expert on brown recluse spiders so this is something that's really

interesting about brown recluse spiders like this they um exist in a very large portion of the united states but we here like in the, I would say like, not necessarily Kansas City, but like the Kansas, Missouri area, are like the bullseye of it. We have the largest population of them. Oh, God. Yeah.

So he did his doctorate in studying brown recluse spiders. Because there wasn't, there's not a ton known about them. And they're, because of their habits, because they're a hardy spider that can go 10 months without eating, they're very difficult to get rid of. Of course, yeah.

Yeah. So I remember this from when we had them at my house growing up. Like really the only way that they knew to kill them at that time was to cut off their food source but even still yeah it's a super slow process yeah so you can't have any other bug and they will they will eat their own oh god yeah typically they won't do like they won't cannibalize but they'll eat the carcasses of dead ones. They'll just eat anything. Oh, I can't handle this.

What? I literally gagged when I said that. Do you see why this is the most horrifying case I've ever covered? I can't believe you even did this one. Oh, gosh. You need a bucket right next to you right now. I mean, you are like bucket right next to you right now i mean you are like so close to hurling i would love to know like the number of times i have looked at you so far in this

episode and thought she needs a break right now i feel like it's every three sentences so he was called as the expert witness at this trial because he has a PhD specifically in brown recluse spiders basically so when he was doing like his dissertation or whatever you have to do to get a doctorate um he put out this like notice to people in the Kansas City area and in Lawrence who had brown recluse spiders in their home and they kind of like the impression that a lot of people got off of it was that he was going to come study them and then he'd rid their house of them right which was not his plan at all he just wanted to come study them he wanted to learn their habits and whatever and so this article that I read about him in the pitch is really interesting

because he has used all of that information that he learned doing that to start a pest control company. And he does it completely differently than anyone else. He uses all organic material because he says they can't become immune to that. Like things build up immunities to chemicals and stuff like that. But if you use all organic material, there's no way for them to become become immune to it and so that's part of what he did in his studies like he put together all of these different things and and saw what their effect had and how long they took to kill them and he studied them on all different phases of life like does it kill babies does it kill you know adult spiders, all of this.

And then he came up with this like perfect formula that would kill all of them and it would do it like within 10 minutes. Wow. Yeah. But it's like completely proprietary. Doesn't tell anybody what's in it. Well, hell yeah. And then he holds like training seminars to train other like pest management companies like and they can buy into his system or whatever. He started like a. This is amazing to me because when you first said phd yeah and brown recluse spiders

yeah i'm like well what do you do with that well i mean if you're the only one with the knowledge exactly you can do a lot with it so in this article that i read about him in the pitch like the the um journalist is like following him on a house call they're at a house in lawrence and he's like going room to room and he's like going room to room and he's like checking the insulation. And he talks about how this is his third visit to that house and he's already seen 10 spiders this time.

He saw six spiders last time, which is a bad sign because that means that they've likely reproduced since then. He finds a baby nest and that's a bad sign because it's out of season. Like it's October at this point.

And typically the babies are born in July, which means that they yeah they're reproducing their really high rate and then he's like going through a storage room and he's like he picks up a wicker basket and he's like you need to get rid of this because they roost in here yeah like it's so crazy yeah it's so interesting to me though and like this guy is kind of my hero. He found a way to kill these terrible spiders. Yes. However, he says that they're not as scary as we all think they are. Because unless you get, like, a really big, really mature one, they lack the strength to be able to bite through most of your tissue. Okay.

Do we have a minute for? Yeah. Okay. Do we have a minute for... Yeah. Okay. This, I've always thought this was pure paranoia. Hang on, let me look on my leg really quick. Well, I'm having to look really hard over here. Okay. Come over here.

Okay. Okay. hard over here. Uh-huh. Okay. Come over here. Okay. Do you see this spot right here? I do. That discoloration? Yeah. Okay. So, like, God. This would have been, like, 13, 14 years ago, I was in college, went home for like some break or something. And I never felt anything weird. But then I got back to college and a couple days later, there, like on my leg, it was just the weirdest thing. There was like, I remember it looked, it looked kind of like a spider bite. You know how like, it almost looks like there's a pin in you, like a little dot. Yeah.

And then the flesh around it like went away. I had like this indentation. And I thought, yeah, that's a brown recluse spider. But then like nothing happened. Yeah. You know, and it was just like it was just like i don't know a relatively small chunk of skin so i always kind of thought that's brown recluse but then i thought i was kind of a drama queen because yeah but you're telling me that that could be

according according to dr sandage okay um yeah a couple of things typically they lack the ability to bite through your skin unless they're very mature or they bite you in your soft tissue. So your armpits, like your groin, something like that. Oh, God. And most people are not super affected by their venom. It has to be a specific, like, you can have a mild reaction to it or you can have extreme reaction to it where you get crazy necrosis and stuff from it. Do you remember when we were in elementary school, there was that janitor. He had this big indentation in his calf. Like, it was a big chunk of tissue that that was missing right um and he said that it

was because of a brown recluse bite wow yeah so some people can have extreme reactions from them and some people aren't as susceptible to it and so it's kind of the perfect storm you get a bite from a mature spider and you're super susceptible to the venom that's where you end up with an extreme reaction according to dr sandage it's where you end up with an extreme reaction. According to Dr. Sandage, it's like people are way more scared of them than they need to be because they're not aggressive. They won't seek you out. That's why they're known as recluses, because they like to stay away from people. But if you it's it's actually he said something about it being like, if you come in contact with them, like, and you flatten against them or you roll over them, that's when they're most likely to put out their things.

What do you call those? Fangs? Yeah. I don't know if they have fangs. But no, so probably when you're asleep, you might roll over on one, right? Right. Exactly. Exactly.

I hate this. But he made a comment in this article with the pitch about it. He likened it to a car accident. You know, nine times out of ten you walk away uninjured it's the horrific one where that everybody hears about sure okay which makes sense yeah so anyway so he comes to the trial and he testifies that he went to over. And he looked it over in the winter, which is when spider activity is at its lowest. So specifically brown recluse spiders are dormant for two to four months out of the year. They don't eat.

They don't mate. They don't do anything. They really are not mobile during that time. It's almost like a hibernation. And it's during that time that he went and inspected the Trost home. And he estimated that there were somewhere between 4,500 and 6,000 brown recluse spiders living in the home. No. Oh, God.

Oh, my God. No. Yeah. No. If I were on that jury, I would have vomited right then. You would have never made it onto the jury. Give them all the money. You would have never made it on the jury.

So something that I think is interesting about this dr sandage he has done so much research into these he's he will he knows like when he can pick one up like he knows how to handle them he's never been bitten you you want to open mouth kiss this man i want to meet him he's like i really do he found out how to do the impossible yeah i really do like i know i'm like your passion is just coming off of you you should have seen me when i stumbled upon like i stumbled upon this pitch article and i was like tell me more i could not get enough so he estimates that in the time when they are least active so that means there could be thousands more so you're not see i thought you were saying like he saw how many were there in the winter and then said okay well then it must be even more he said on that he would give a conservative estimate based on what he saw at that level.

Okay. 4,500 to 6,000. He said that if he went during mating season. Oh. Bouncing. Just a spider brothel. You can't even. oh oh you can't even so by this time the the freaking trosts have had to they're living somewhere else they have had to file bankruptcy oh well your house has gone into foreclosure

and they bought in 07 yeah the housing collapse happens yes no one wants the spider house. No. And so another thing that he testified to. So State Farm said that their reason for denying their claim was because they won't say they can't say that they won't say that spiders, a spider infestation is physical damage. They won't relate it to physical damage and then they also um denied their claim they testified that because they're in their policy it says they are not protected against insects and so dr sandage testified at trial that spiders are not insects they're arachnids and there's nothing about them not being protected against arachnids in their policy yeah the jur The jurors, what do you think they decided? Whose favor do you think they found in?

Do you think they found in? So this was specifically, while State Farm was there and testifying, this was not a lawsuit against State Farm. It was against the previous homeowners. They had to have found in favor of the Trosts. I mean. They did.

Okay. They found in favor of the Trosts and mean they did okay they found in favor of the trosts and they awarded them 472 000 so the value of the home and then i think like some um appreciation and value because they've lost so much value like they and then also cost of the the extermination attempts that they did make and for you you, I mean, emotional distress. Oh, my. I could never. I don't know where I'd live after that.

You wouldn't trust anything. I wouldn't. If my wall started bleeding spiders. Oh, my gosh. I am going to have so many nightmares tonight. I know you are. Would this be the one thing that would get you out of Johnson County, Kansas? Oh, gosh.

Because, you know, there are places you could live where. Oh, gosh, where they don't have. But they have other spiders. Right. Would you just go find this doctor and go live in his house with him? Yeah. Yeah, I would. After that verdict, though, after that ruling and the awarding of the money to the Trost,

the Galt's filed for bankruptcy and the Trost didn't get that money. Oh, gosh. Yeah. And so they looked at each other and they said let's go to court and so they filed a new lawsuit against state farm okay yes for denying their claim for not covering the galt's claim because state because that was the deal is that the state farm was representing them and that they should have then had to pay that claim when that judgment came down. And they refused to pay that judgment. And so then the Trost had to take them specifically to court to get that $472,000.

As far as I could find, they never received any of that money. They never got like a settlement or anything not that i could find it's possible that they got some kind of out of court settlement i hope they did too i mean that that's financial ruin yeah oh god yeah so as of um the most recent article on this case which was written in like 2014, so it's not real current. The house was still vacant. It had gone into foreclosure and was owned by a bank and the bank was working to try in. So think about this.

Oh, think about that spider situation. Got six thousand spiders. And then it goes through multiple mating cycles. That house is sitting completely empty. Oh, my. multiple mating cycles because that house is sitting completely empty oh my so this um in 2014 this bank that took over ownership of the house they made an attempt to um light it on fire they tented it to fumigate it yeah which the country club was none too pleased about because it sits right on the golf course. Yeah. And so they've got these giant like circus tents on this house on the golf course.

Yeah. So this exterminator who took over his name, it was like McCarthy, McCarthy extermination or something like that. He said that the process would likely cause would likely cost about $30,000 to fumigate the home. But what they do is they create a hostile environment inside the home. So they tent it completely, they seal it off, so nothing can get out. And then they put this like sulfuric acid in like a flash frozen form into the house into the walls all of that um and the official quote from tim mccarthy the owner of this extermination company said there will be nothing alive in there after this okay no word on if it was effective but the house did sell in 2015 as the last recorded sale of it for like three hundred thousand dollars that's still a lot for yeah yeah for spider house in the midwest yeah in conclusion

uh i think that the troughs deserve millions of dollars from from state farm absolutely i feel terrible for them yes because they they their dream home was ruined for them they had to flee spiders and then they had to file bankruptcy they had to i mean yeah i don't see what another option for them was. They could not live there. No. No. Yeah. And so I'd love to know where they are now, how they recovered from that. I hope they're doing amazing because that is just like truly my worst nightmare.

What if they reached out to us? Oh my God, that'd be amazing. Please. Reach out to us. If you listen, please reach out. Also. Yes. Also. Yes. Dr. Sandage.

Yes. Is my new hero. Right. I love him. We've established that. I'd like to meet him. I think he's amazing. I think that he put all of that work into figuring, like understanding the spiders and then figuring out how to kill them.

Yeah. And he's got a really effective method now he even created so he what he created was like a powder pesticide but it's all natural um so it's not dangerous to people uh-huh but it kills the spiders and it does it quickly and then he also created like a delivery method for it like a sprinkler thing that he puts it down with brandy it's just the baby powder it's not it's different than that i think he's amazing however not everyone shares my view so he spoke at like a conference and some guy is quoted in this article from the pitch

that i read um and he was like yeah just because you put a bunch of letters after your name doesn't mean you can charge a bunch more i think this guy's wrong i think the old process works just fine what yes so is this another exterminator yeah he spoke at an extermination conference and like talked about his proprietary method and everything and this guy was like old method works just fine. Obviously it doesn't. You know, I got a PhD too. Pretty huge dick. That is exactly.

People get weirdly defensive about academics. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. So that's my case and it was horrifying that was so good do you want to know something crazy yes okay this is nuts and i this is no bullshit okay so i decided i don't know um several days ago that this is the case I was going to do. And I was sitting on the couch pulling articles for it. And David and I were watching the Game Show Network.

As you always do. I love the Game Show Network. And he pulls up this thing on his phone and he shows it to me. And he's like, I wonder if you can find enough stuff on this case. This would be really interesting. And it was a little like weird facts you know like those little like graphics that are like weirdfacts.com about a couple that was run out of their house by a spider infestation i was like are you fucking kidding me right now and he's like what i'm like that's the fucking case i'm researching right now so weird yeah that's nuts it was nuts he was like what the fuck is the matter like because i was like

you did not just fucking show me that and he's like what and then i like showed him the articles i was pulling up on my computer and he's like, what the fuck? You two are so cute. I know, it makes me want to puke. I'm sorry. Should I talk about how cute me and Norm are? Yeah, you guys are adorable. No, we're not.

We've been snipping at each other. Well, you guys are going through a lot right now. Should we let people in on the state of this home? Would you like to describe it, Brandi? There's debris everywhere. I just imagine how this is for you because you don't do well in this environment. No. So you guys are in the middle of the move.

Right. And then also you're in the middle of getting the old house ready for sale. And we're still recording at the old house because here's the situation for everybody old house has no toilet for a few days there no water no water no toilet but internet yes new house toilets galore. Plenty of water. No internet. I mean, it's been a tough go. Yes. And I pee all the time. Well, we just had to break to walk to Starbucks to pee. We both peed, for the record.

I'm not some freak. But yeah, so it's been total chaos total chaos yeah but the new house is amazing and man when we get more than just a mattress in there it's gonna really sing huh yes it's so cool i'm so excited i'm so excited for you guys thanks oh okay let me get cushions for my butt. Oh, Lord. Oh, gosh. Oh, Jesus. I feel like Yertle the Turtle now. Yertle the Turtle?

Didn't you ever read Yertle the Turtle? Yeah, of course I read Yertle the Turtle. Okay. What'd she do? Did she sit on a nest? How dare you? I don't remember it. It's a he.

I'm sorry. But he sat on a nest, right? No, what are you talking about? Oh, was that Horton? Who sat on that egg? Not Yertle. So Yertle was the one. He wanted to be king of the pond, king of all of Salamisand.

Yeah. So he, like, stood on a rock and he liked that, but he wanted more power. Oh, yeah king of all of salamisand yeah so he like stood on a rock and he liked that but he wanted more oh yeah okay it's about hitler yeah don't know if you know yeah hitler's bad is everybody getting this yet nazi's bad genocide bad makes me mad yeah okay that's enough okay um do you know what case i'm covering okay so because i don't have access to our patreon yet yeah okay should we discuss that um we have a patreon it's going great it's going amazing thank you guys for all the support. But as I said. Kristen is being Yertle the turtle. I am. I am.

So I wrote down the password to our Patreon account. And I took everything, every book, notebook, everything to the new house. As I said, internet is at the old house. That's right. So I keep telling Brandy I'll give her the password. Will I? I don't know.? I don't know. I just don't know.

So I saw the two options and I didn't know until I saw your intro which one won. And I didn't know based on the link on the Patreon what case it was. But now I do. So for those of you who don't know, anyone at any tier level on our Patreon can vote on an episode. So this week, I don't know if we'll do this every single week or whatever, but this week...

Time to time, yeah. Yeah, I chose a theme based on a recommendation from a listener. So Paige wrote in to us on Facebook and sent us a link to this thing called the gay panic defense, which even though I'm an expert, I had no idea was a thing. I didn't either. No. So she brought it up after you covered Glenn Kapitsky's death.

She's like, yeah, gay panic defense is a thing. It's a horrible thing. And people are trying to fight to get rid of it. So here's my like very quick recap of what a gay panic defense is it's oh my god i was just hit on by a gay person oh i'm freaking out i'm panicking i must kill them and that's totally fine because i'm in a gay panic yeah yeah yeah so that sucks it is ridiculous yes it's it's horrible that would be like me okay uh-huh what just happened to us on the street yes yes so we just walked to starbucks yes as we're walking back this car pulls up next to us and this guy has

his window down he goes hey hey like what if i was like that guy just hit on us and i'm in a panic and we must murder him now you know what if okay i shouldn't you shouldn't say that christine i just really hate street harassers it's horrible and like what the fuck did he think he was gonna accomplish i was gonna get in the car with him well brandy you did make out with him so I think you taught him the wrong lesson. Oh my gosh, David, I'm so sorry you had to find out this way. David, that was all it took. A guy said, hey, hey, to her.

She's like, no one's ever said that to me before. So anyway, I made a post on Patreon, and I said, because I got obsessed with this defense, and I found two cases. One was the trials of the guys who killed Matthew Shepard, which is a very famous case.

The other one is the murder of Scott Amateur. I thought for sure Matthew Shepard was going to win because it's the more famous case. Not so fast. By a vote of 34 to 29. Ooh. The second case won. All right. I'm also going to have to admit, we've said that we are like old grandmas using new technology.

So I accidentally forgot to make the voting patrons only. So if you got in there and you didn't. Sneaky dickens. Yeah. First one's on the house. That right not gonna let it happen again though i probably will so here we go you should see kristen and i in the discord by the way the discord for anyone else who is like us and is like watch that it's like an aol chat room without the creeps it's so fun it's so fun we're having a blast with it that's the appellate court and supreme court that's correct yeah patron levels get you in there talking to a very

exclusive club to anyone who has five dollars today i want to tell you about the most infamous episode of perhaps any day i was gonna say daytime talk show yeah in general but definitely most infamous episode of the jenny jones show okay we used to watch the shit out of the jenny jones show love jenny jones yes okay take it away brandy describe jenny jones show for anyone who's never seen it oh my gosh or who is young and hip and cool uh i mean she just covered all kinds of topics usually most often what i remember is like my teenage daughter's out of control my teenage daughter dresses 260 and then she'd come on. It's my hot body. We loved it. Oh, we loved it.

It was on at like 3 o'clock, right? Yeah. So we would get home from school. Yep. And we'd get ourselves snacks. And then we'd get on the phone and watch the Jenny Jones show together. Yep. And it was fabulous.

It was just the right thing for our young minds. Yep. So, you know, it was trashy TV. But we loved it. And Ginny Johns, I always kind of liked her. Yeah. I remember the first six, actually the first seven digits of her phone number to call into the show. You do?

Yeah, because. Well, it ends in Ginny, right? Oh, maybe. Yeah. Only because it was the exact same number as um lisa's desk phone at her job and if you didn't dial a one it didn't dial all of the numbers because it was long distance uh-huh so it was 312 832 and like that was the area code and the first three digits but lisa's desk number was 312 8324 and so if you kept dialing like you didn't dial the one for long distance

this takes you back when you had to dial one to dial long distance. It would just ring Lisa's desk and people would call her thinking they were calling the Jenny Jones show. I would love that. I would have been like tell me everything. What's the craziest call she ever got? I don't know. Oh damn it. Damn it

Lisa. That sounds like so much fun okay so here's how this episode went it was march 6 1985 i'm sorry 1995 they've just come back from a commercial break jenny jones is standing amongst her lively audience everyone was always pumped up by way, you can watch this on YouTube. She's looking straight into the camera, like she always did, and she goes, Now which of these ways would you choose to reveal your secret crush on someone? A. Would you write that person a letter?

B. Would you tell the person in private, in case he rejects you? Or C. Would you tell that person that you're gay and you hope he is on national television? Oh, gosh. And at this point, the audience is like, what? Yes. They were going nuts. So clapping, screaming, laughing.

They are totally into it. Yeah. Then Jenny introduces the audience to donna and scott who of course are already in their chairs so donna and scott are sitting next to each other on stage and they're looking like kind of nervous but kind of excited and jenny explains that donna and scott are friends and donna has been helping scott because he has a secret crush on her friend Jonathan. Jenny starts talking directly to Scott and she's like, how bad is the crush? Tell me about the first time you met him.

And Scott is kind of like, well, he was under her car working on her brake light, referring to Donna. And Jenny says, what was your first impression? Okay, first of all, there's no way that's right what you don't access the brake light from under the car okay nerd you access it from inside the trunk well i mean maybe he didn't know he just he's just telling a story i'm just saying story does not check out he totally checks out i'd'd be like, first time I saw him, he was under a car working on stuff. All right. Okay. And Jenny says,

what was your first impression? And Scott kind of laughs, and he goes, well, I only saw the lower half of him, so you can imagine. And the audience is like, ooh! Spicy! I like that your actual reactions are very close to the Jenny Jones Show audience reactions. Then Jenny goes, you've had fantasies about him?

Scott, I've had a couple, yeah. Jenny, when he was under the car, you had a fantasy about him? Scott, yeah, something to do with brake oil line snapping and again the audience is like which that just sounds dangerous the fuck is brake oil i brandy the man's not a mechanic and neither am i break fluid this is your issue with this story? I guess. Jenny, tell us, you had another one where you're in a hammock or something. Tell us about that fantasy. So Scott kind of laughs again. He's looking a little embarrassed, but he seems like a ham.

And he goes, yeah, actually, I've got a pretty big hammock in my yard and i thought about tying him up in my hammock um jenny and scott and it entails like whipped cream champagne stuff like that again the audience oh my god it was like the first time anyone's ever thought to like introduce whipped cream into a sexual scenario they're just like no someone was taking notes so it's break oil you said the show goes on and jenny confirms that john knows that Scott is gay. And she goes, do you know that he is? And Scott goes, anything's possible. Things keep moving along and Scott's talking about John's cute little hard body and how, you know, you just, he had some line about, you just want to put him in a curio cabinet and then dust him off every now and then?

He had some funny little lines. Then it was time for the big reveal. The Jenny Jones staff took the headphones off of Jonathan and sent him onto the set. Do you remember that? Oh, they're in the isolation booth. Soundproof booth. So Jonathan walks on. All he knows is that he has a secret admirer and he sees donna and scott sitting on stage and he smiles and hugs donna gives her like a little

kiss on the cheek and he kind of awkwardly shakes scott's hand and it's so it's so awkward to describe so like scott kind of pulled him in for this half hug. One of those genitals not touching hugs. Oh, yeah. Pelvis out. Yeah. Jenny said, do you think Donna has a crush on you? Jonathan.

Did I? No, we're good friends. Jenny. Well, guess what? It's Scott that has the crush on you. John turns to Scott and he's like, he's kind of laughing and kind of like,

Oh, cause you know, he's taking off guard. He goes, you lied to me. The audience goes wild. And John smiles and claps. Then Jenny was like,

Hey, before we go on break, John, why don't you look at what Scott said about you on this monitor over here? And so they play back the clip about the whipped cream and champagne. And Jonathan kind of covers his face with his hands, takes his hands away. And he looks kind of uncomfortable. And he goes, jenny scott was pretty open he said he's been fantasizing about you since he saw you under the car for the first time he had an under the car fantasy and he had a hammock fantasy he's been telling us about did you have any idea that he liked you this much? John. No, no, I did not.

That I did not. Jenny, can you tell us what your status is? Are you involved with anybody? John. No, but I am definitely heterosexual, I guess you could say. And then the audience cheers. What? Just like an uncomfortable thing?

No, like, oh great, another straight person. We're so rare. It was super weird. That is weird. Then John tells the story of how he met Scott. And it wasn't much of a story. He'd been working on Donna's car. He and Scott talked for a bit. And then later Donna told John that Scott thought he was a good looking guy. And John was like, oh, that's car. He and Scott talked for a bit and then later Donna told John

that Scott thought he was a good looking guy. And John was like, oh, that's flattering, but, you know, not into it. So Jenny goes, it's flattering,

but you're not interested? There's no way? There's no way, right? And John goes, no. So that's that segment. That's it. That's the episode.

Then, three days after the taping, John went home to discover that Scott had left him a note. I was never able to find exactly what the note said, but every newspaper article I read said it was suggestive. So he gets this suggestive note. Article I read said it was suggestive. Okay. So he gets this suggestive note. Then Jonathan went to the bank, took out some money, bought a shotgun. Then he drove to Scott's trailer in the suburbs of Detroit and shot him twice in the chest. Oh, my gosh.

Afterward, Jonathan called 911. Scott's roommate also called 911, and Jonathan confessed the whole thing. Pretty quickly, Jonathan was charged with first-degree murder. So, you know, you'd think pretty open and shut case. Yeah. But obviously, no. Yeah. Because he got this defense team, and they came up with this strategy.

The defense team came up with this defense. Jonathan had been humiliated on the Jenny Jones show. Before he went to that taping, he went out and spent hundreds of dollars on new clothes. He told his family he was going to meet the girl of his dreams. But when his imaginary dream girl. First of all, that's fucking dumb. Because you don't know who has a crush on you. Exactly.

Okay, sorry, continue. No, I totally agree. And I think that's kind of my main issue with this whole thing. Like, yeah, you can hope that that's who it's gonna be but you have no idea maybe it's toothless cheryl from three doors down right i mean like who do you think is calling you to go on the jenny jones show really yeah yeah so it's not a hot sports illustrated model oh my god heidi klum has a crush on me and she brought me on jenny jones to tell me that's fucking dumb and like the other thing okay the clothes of course you bought new clothes you're going on tv

so yeah okay but when his imaginary dream girl turned out to be a man. He was so embarrassed. Then, Scott made more romantic advances with that note. And, add in the fact that Jonathan has Graves' disease. So, you know. So you know what? Well, you know, that's just a recipe for murdering someone. Is it? And it not being your fault. Okay, great okay do you have thoughts on that let me write jot that one down yeah i have fucking

grave cities never murdered anyone not yet someone invites you onto a talk show excuse is that so when i saw that i was like was like, oh my God, Brandy's going to love this. Yes, what the fuck? So we'll get into it a little bit more later. But they basically, and they obviously had other mental health stuff too. But like, yeah, Graves' disease played a fairly big role in this. They said that it like makes you, when I looked up the official symptoms, it did mention that you could become more irritable.

So yeah, irritability and anxiety are big are big um symptoms also buying shotguns buying shotguns murder it's a terrible i mean don't worry brandy it's not your fault that's right when my thyroid levels get off man i am a loose cannon so you add all that up and boom jonathan was pushed past his breaking point through no fault of his own no yes brandy no did you not hear what i just said i heard it he thought he was gonna meet cinderella and then he met a man. Okay. I am so irritated with this whole argument. I don't even, I understand none of it.

No. Partially because, like, okay, Scott was a good-looking guy. You've got a person saying they have a crush on you. You've chosen to go on national television because you know that someone a man or a woman yeah and they told him a man or a man or a woman now that gets debated a little bit later but they say they told him a man or a woman and you know jenny jones asked him if she would if he was interested and he's like no i'm heterosexual so like oh what you're making a face what I think that it means that he it me I shouldn't say that you think he's secretly gay yeah you

know that's what we're secretly questioning yeah because why else would it make you so mad yeah exactly i yeah i mean i think that's a good theory yeah well you think everybody's secretly gay so you know what here's here's my here's my honest to god bias i think anyone who's homophobic yeah is harboring some kind of yeah yeah and like the super homophobic So homophobic that you murdered someone because they found you attractive. Yeah. There's something going on there. Yeah. The people who run like little camps where you can pray the gay away.

Yeah. Gay. Yeah. Hate to break it to you. Yes. Can't pray it away. Yeah. It's just you, buddy.

Yeah. So ridiculous. But prosecutors and gay rights activists were like, uh, no. Nope. No, this isn't about Graves' disease. No, it's, that is the most outlandish or ridiculous thing I've ever heard. It's because he had Graves' disease. And very embarrassed. They were like, it's about

homophobia. Yes, it's 100% about homophobia. It's homophobia and homophobia, sorry, is not an excuse for murder. Nope. Before the trial started, the defense wanted the judge to compel jenny jones to testify but the judge was like i don't see how her testimony is relevant here and really yeah that was his that was his ruling what do you think i think it would be relevant why

um I think it would be relevant. Why? Well, because the incident started answers that Scott said about Jonathan. Yeah, I think it all depends on if you buy into this defense at all. Well, I don't buy into the defense at all. But I think I don't. I don't. I think it would make sense for her to testify. I think it's odd to exclude her.

Okay. Let's see if the judge changes their mind, shall we? In their opening argument, the prosecution argued that Jonathan was a cold-blooded killer. When he was invited on to the Jenny Jones show, he was told that his secret admirer could be a woman or could be a man. After they taped the show, Jonathan and Scott went out drinking together. Really? Yeah. What the fuck? Yeah. So it wouldn't appear that Jonathan was like so upset and just couldn't handle it, right?

I just made direct eye contact with the mailman! Well, and your thumb was in your mouth! Right? Right? Just couldn't get enough. Oh, no! Poor David. First the man saying hey, hey, and then the mailman walking by. Oh, my gosh. Please don't harass the random men who walk past my home, lady.

I can't even. It's my Graves disease. Makes you irritable and horny. I have no control over it. So clearly, this show wasn't some traumatic experience. Jonathan killed Scott because he wanted to kill him. He wasn't driven to do this by forces beyond his control. Yeah.

What? What? Was Donna around for the entire night when they were out drinking? was Donna around for the entire night when they were out drinking? I didn't get as much information on that as I wanted to, but I believe Donna was there. You think they had sex? Yeah.

Yeah. That'll come into play later. Yeah, that's my theory, that they had a hookup. And then Scott, I'm sorry, what's the other guy's name? Jonathan is the murderer. Yes. Then Jonathan was like fuck he's gonna tell everybody I have to kill him

that's really fascinating that you put that together so quickly like I told you I told you in text this case is a bit of a beast. That's good. Like, you jumped way higher.

No, it's okay. It's okay. It's just my own personal theory. Well, and who knows if it's correct? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But the defense argued that Jonathan was a fragile young man.

He had a history of manic depression, which I don't think we call it manic depression anymore. Bipolar. Bipolar. Bipolar, okay. Alcoholism and Graves' disease, which as we all know can cause very violent behavior. How are you even able to be around me, Kristen? Well, as you can see, I'm in full armor. And on top of all that... I've never had any form of violence at all or volatility because of my graves disease

right it's always been because of your other animals so on top of all that yeah the show had caused great embarrassment it was the perfect storm that's right that. That's exactly it. Yeah. So they said that he thought he was going on there to meet up with his former girlfriend. So I think I think his dad had said at one point that he had been engaged to someone. It it kind of fallen apart. So he thought he was going to be reunited with her. Again, that's stupid because I'm sure they didn't say anything to allude to that no they just tell you you've got a secret admirer yeah could be a man could be a woman yeah and you're like you like to come on national tv my super hot ex-girlfriend who i'm not over yeah that's dumb

you know i i don't blame him for hoping that of course you would hope but i do blame him for like going and murdering someone of course i just spat so hard i want you to know how tough i am so interestingly both sides told the jury hey just watch the tape of the Jenny Jones show and you'll see that I'm right. Prosecutor Roman. Polanski. Kalidiak. Kalytak.

That's so different. K-A-L-Y-T-I-i-a-k yeah it's a doozy i think the first way roman k k said jonathan schmitz does not stomp off the show he starts clap clapping he pointed out that jonathan was calm unruffled. But defense attorney Fred Gibson said that the tape would show that Jonathan was clearly embarrassed. He puts on a front, but the truth is in his eyes. So I just want to say, I was watching this clip the other day in our home with no toilet, but internet. this clip the other day in our home with no toilet and, but internet and Norman walked in and I'd already told him a little bit up about the case.

And he was like, Oh my God, this is the guy. Yeah. And Norman was just like, I can't believe that he killed him after this. Because he does seem very calm. Now I think,

yeah, I've seen the clip. It's been a long time, but he looks uncomfortable yeah but no more uncomfortable than you would if like wow i thought it was someone and it's not that person yeah it's toothless cheryl right from three doors down poor cheryl what do you got against her i mean they thought they she thought they had a connection they've you know made eye contact several times when they've been out to get the mail.

But he's just not into it. One of the first people called to the stand was the police officer who responded to the 911 call. He said that when he found Jonathan, Jonathan was sobbing, but didn't appear to be mentally ill. Yeah. Which I don't know how you would appear to be mentally ill, which I don't know how you would appear to be mentally ill. This is some 1995 shit. Later, the jury

I'm sorry, I'm having an eyelash emergency over here. You've got one hanging low, sweet chariot. I think you got it. Wow. Hey, hey, hey. Hey, hey. Sorry, I'm a woman and I'm hitting on you and you've got Graves disease. What am I asking for it?

Later, the jury watched the tape of the Jenny Jones show. Afterward, Donna Riley testified. Jones show. Afterward, Donna Riley testified. She said that Scott contacted the show when he saw them advertise for people with secret gay crushes. So maybe we should explain that too. Like, yeah, at the end of the show or like as they went to commercial break, it was like, do you have a secret gay crush called blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Call Lisa. Three, two, fill in the last four digits. To come on the show. Yeah. And it'd be like a different topic every commercial break or at the end of the show.

Yeah. Does your teenage daughter dress too sexy? Are you unsure which former flame is the father of your child? So many good shows. So many. Does your kid need to go to boot camp? Those were good. Boot camp episodes.

Those were so good. And they'd bring out the guy. Yeah. Oh, tough boy, huh? Not so tough now, are you? Yeah. And then everything was fixed by the end of that show. That's exactly right.

Donna said that when the Jenny Jones show reached out to Jonathan, he immediately asked her and Scott if they were the ones who set it up. So he suspected them yeah immediately they denied it because that's what the jenny jones show told them to do um she talked about how when the show was done taping they all went back to michigan together and got drunk so it does sound like the three of them were together donna testified for three days at one point when she was being cross-examined donna said that she had thought about warning jonathan about what was really going to happen on the show the defense asked why did you want to break the show's rule why tell jonathan

and she said i thought maybe he would get get angry at Scott for putting him in that situation. Then Michelle Wright took the stand. So Michelle hung out with Jonathan the night before he killed Scott. This is freaky as hell. So they worked together. They went out with a bunch of coworkers. They were drinking until 2 a.m. They went out with a bunch of coworkers.

They were drinking until 2 a.m. After that, Michelle and Jonathan went back to her parents' house to drink champagne, smoke some pot, and make out on her parents' couch like you do. Which I think the article said that they started with beer, then switched to champagne, which is not the way you're supposed to do it. No, unless it's the champagne of beers. Then it's a smooth transition. That's right. How many episodes in a row do you think we can mention the champagne of beers?

That is such a you thing. You love to hide Easter eggs. Like that GameCube thing. Did we ever explain that? No, we never explained it. And people were so confused about it. Okay, you need to explain it right now. So in the Brock Turner case, we were talking about how exclusive Stanford was.

And Kristen said it's got like a 5% acceptance rate and so I said yeah if it was a GameCube controller it'd be like the Spongebob of GameCube controllers and people heard that and were like what the fuck are you talking about so someone

had tweeted us a picture of a Spongebob GameCube controller like 20 minutes before we recorded. Yes. And they said, if you can work this smoothly into conversation, I'll subscribe to Norm's channel. And so, if you think I'm going to back down from

that challenge, you've lost your damn mind. Which shows how different we are, because I was like, you're like, I don't give a fuck. But you're like, Norm't give a fuck but you're like norm needs that one that's right absolutely i hope he has subscribed i mean if you went to that trouble yeah i delivered okay okay yeah so in our discord a couple of people were like uh what was the deal with this did i miss some inside No, you didn't miss anything. Just Brandy helping out a friend. Helping out Norm. Anything for Norm.

So that night, she says, they never got around to discussing the show. She said he seemed fine with how the show went, but she could tell that there was something wrong. They hung out all night and into the morning. In fact, Michelle was with him up to an hour and a half before he murdered Scott. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Whew.

When the prosecution rested, the defense brought in a doctor who treated Jonathan in 1994. The doctor said that Jonathan had depression, low self-esteem, that he had a drug and alcohol problem, and that his father had been abusive. Some of Jonathan's co-workers testified He mentioned the Graves disease. I don't know that this one did. Maybe they didn't want to ask an actual doctor

about that. Right? Because the doctor would be like, well, you know, it does a lot of things, but it's not going to murder anybody. So Jonathan's co-workers testified they thought that he thought he was going to be on the show to meet a woman. And that when he came back from the show, he was a totally different person. His dad said the same thing. He said, I thought Jonathan was going to kill himself. His dad went into their family history with mental illness. Around this point, the defense made another attempt to get Jenny Jones to join the party.

They were like, hey, this is kind of the prosecution's fault. They asked Donna a bunch of questions about the show, including some about what jenny did on the day of taping they brought her into this in a way and we need to be able to get her testimony on the record which i yeah i agree this time the defense won jenny jones was brought in to testify and boy was she uncomfortable uh yeah which you would be yeah apparently jonathan told the producers that if his secret admirer was a man he wouldn't want to go on the show the defense asked jenny if she was aware of that she said no they asked if she'd been deceptive they pointed out that the name of the episode was Same Sex Secret Crushes. But Jonathan was never told the name of the episode.

Jenny said she hadn't been deceptive. It's just that the premise of the show was a surprise. Which I agree. Yeah. I mean, there's some level of deception in surprising someone. Yeah, there is. But I think it... Whether it was deceptive or not comes down to whether or not they told him for sure your crush could be a man or a woman. I think that's pretty certain.

Okay. So then I don't think it's deceptive. I think the issue came down more like, so they told him it could be a man, could be a woman. Then he at some point said, if it's a man, I don't want to be on there. I don't want to go on it. And then, again, it all depends on which side you want to listen to, but I'll just present all of it. And it seems that the producer implied heavily that it was a woman. Okay.

So that's deceptive. That is deceptive. The jury of seven men and five women went into deliberation. What do you think they found? I think they found him guilty. They found him guilty of second-degree murder. Interesting. Which, I mean, I think is way off.

Yeah, I do too. I think you went to the bank, you bought the shotgun. You went to his house. I mean, you're thinking that through. But what's interesting, I guess it was just a different time because at the time, a lot of people, including gay rights activists, were like, oh, what a great verdict. You know, it just says I think it says something about the time that everyone was like, he's going to get away with this. Yeah. So he was sentenced to 25 to 50 years in prison. That's longer than I would have thought for a second degree. Yeah.

Yeah. So people really thought this was a pretty good verdict. Yeah. This was pretty fair. But you know who didn't think that? Jonathan. Yes. Yep.

Jonathan's attorney. What? Epi. uh jonathan yes yep jonathan's attorney you know i was about to say repealed repealed yes appealed the verdict and they won holy shit the appellate court found that the trial judge made errors during jury selection so jonathan got a new trial wow don't ask me what the errors were i wasn't going to good you're a good friend oh i know that shit it's so hard to find when you're doing the research it's like what errors what were the errors yeah and you know on the one hand i don't blame the the journalist because you've only got so much yeah you can't get in all the details but it's like what the fuck was the error and by the time you're reading about it they're like starting the

article on the new trial so that's the stuff but i'm genuinely curious like what errors did you make meanwhile scott's family was still reeling from his loss and they were angry because they didn't think that jonathan was solely to blame for scott's death they thought jenny the jenny jo Jones show was also. Yeah. So they hired a defense attorney. If they were deceptive, they played a role, maybe. At the end of the day,

they are not responsible for someone going and murdering someone. No, I just think it all comes down to if you do something, what's the reasonable consequence you can expect?

I think it's reasonable to expect that someone might be kind of embarrassed. Yeah, that he'll be embarrassed by it, that he might not be friends with him anymore. It's not reasonable to expect that he's going to go buy a shotgun and murder him. No. Not at all. No.

That's not a liability you have to take into consideration. Right. So they hired a defense attorney, who you might recall from the Dr.vorkian case it's jeffrey feiger oh yes yeah the longtime lawyer yeah i yeah so fun so jeffrey was very enthusiastic we love when people show up in multiple cases we we love a cameo appearance. A recurring character. A recurring character. So on behalf of Scott's family, he sued the Jenny Jones show for $71.5 million in damages. How'd they get to that number? What do we want?

Multiply it by 5,000? I don't know. That's crazy. That's nuts. Why. five? To make it sound like you really had a formula. I guess, right? That would be my guess.

Wow. At trial, he argued that the show's producers had been negligent by humiliating a mentally troubled man. Oh, I think at the very least you can say they were somewhat deceptive but that doesn't make them responsible i think in the spirit of that episode they were deception was required for that episode um huh but yeah i guess somebody becomes the butt of that but you don't that doesn't make them liable when someone murders someone yeah i just i don't i don't see how they can i argue that i agree so jeffrey said that the jenny jones show did everything but pull the trigger in scott's debbie yeah yeah no thanks je Tone it down. Everything but pull the trigger. Hold on, wait a minute.

That's crazy. Well, and my other thinking is, like, this was just one segment in the show. Yeah. So, did all those other guys go out and kill people? Go out and murder someone? Yeah. Probably not because they didn't have Graves' disease. But still.

We better look into that. Yeah. So, Warner Brothers was the jenny jones parent company and their lawyers were like oh okay slow your roll this episode of the jenny jones show wasn't that out of the ordinary i mean it's no difference than like a surprise birthday party disagree that whatever disagree as well but it's no difference different than a journalist who comes up to someone and asks them a bunch of unexpected questions okay i'm more on board with that a little bit i don't know i don't think it's that similar but no it's it's really not

but again he knew the basic premise of the show yeah he went on the show voluntarily watching the episode you would never like have any mistaking conclusion about what he says is his sexual preference super into it nobody's walking away with it with that yeah yeah that takeaway not that even if it did go that way he would have the right to kill anybody no no i'm just saying like that was not the point i was making no i know i know but i'm just saying like from watching that clip yeah i was like this is not humiliating yeah have you ever been hit on by a gay person yeah yeah me too you know what's honestly scary getting hit on by like a creepy straight entitled man who doesn't take no for an answer that's like yes that's way creepier

it is that's way scarier my personal experience that's worse yeah absolutely it is yeah yeah no not to say there aren't gay creeps out there. We know you're there. Absolutely there are. Yeah. Let's name some right now. Let's not. So what they said was, think of the chilling effect this could have on the media if we're not allowed to operate under some element of surprise.

Warner Brothers attorney Zazie Pope was like, what do you want from us? Do you want us to do a psychological profile on everyone who comes onto every program? And on top of that, we're not allowed to talk about anything that could involve an element of surprise? I'm with him on that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think it's a good point.

Warner Brothers attorneys rehashed some of the stuff that came up at Jonathan's criminal trial. He knew that his secret admirer could be a man. In their view, he wasn't upset when he learned his secret admirer was a man. And then they dropped a bombshell, which won't seem like much of a bombshell because Brandy predicted it like 20 minutes ago. which won't seem like much of a bombshell because brandy predicted it like 20 minutes ago after that taping scott and jonathan had sex yes that's why jonathan killed scott to keep him quiet about what they'd done i believe that's totally possible but i bet they can't prove that no well and i might make allegation to be putting out there when you can't back it up yeah and i again i'm sure this information was out there i just couldn't find

i couldn't find anything solid on this yeah the one thing i did find was an article um where a woman named carla self took the stand and she talked about seeing Jonathan and Scott at a bar together, but she couldn't name anyone who could back up her story. And the guy she claimed was Scott didn't have a mustache that night, but given the timing of all this, he should have had a mustache. You know how sometimes we get mad because, like, an attorney will bring up something in opening arguments. And then never come back to it.

Or, like, they'll say some big thing and then, like, their evidence for it is, like, totally weak sauce. Yeah. I mean, if this is their evidence that these two had sex, I'm not impressed. Yeah. Consider me Shania Twain. That don't impress you much? So, but again, maybe there was some,

but I feel like I would have found that. Newspapers.com has never steered me wrong before. That's right. Jonathan was called to the stand, but he pled the fifth. Would you like to know what I wrote in my notes? Yeah. But he invoked the pled the fifth.

He either invoked his fifth amendment rights uh-huh which was my first thought the fifth yeah kristen came back later was like no pled the fifth jenny jones also testified and she was like no my show does not ambush guests to boost ratings. I think probably Jeffrey Feiger's. Yeah, of course. I bet they do. Yeah, of course they do. But again, I guess my feeling is if you're going on the Jenny Jones show. Yeah, no, I bet they completely do.

Still not an excuse to murder someone. No, no. No. Jeffrey Feiger's argument, in case it wasn't very, very clear, was he was just like, this is trash TV, you know, blah, blah, blah. Ultimately, the jury sided with Scott's family. They awarded the family $5 million for Scott's suffering, $10 million for the loss of his companionship, and $10 million for the loss of his future earnings. Wow. I know. of his companionship and 10 million for the loss of his future earnings wow i know um so you look stunned right now you want to talk about why you look so stunned uh because i i don't think that they can be held liable yeah i was shocked by that i am shocked by that so the jenny jones show was also completely shocked this was one of those interesting

verdicts i find this so fascinating where first amendment scholars were horrified and freaked out about the chilling effect that this could have because like you kind of make a ruling on one aspect of media and it can apply to basically everybody in the pool yeah but everyday people were like we're just sick of this trashy tv and we want there to be repercussions this reminded me of the hulk hogan sex tape thing where like people just seem to hate gawker so much that they made an example of it yeah yep warner brothers and the jenny jones show appealed and in a two-to-one decision the appellate court sided with the jenny jones show wow yeah um i thought this was kind of interesting they said

that even though the that episode may have been the epitome of bad taste, the Jenny Jones Show and its parent company had no legal obligation to protect Scott from Jonathan. That's exactly right. Yeah. I think that's exactly right. Yeah, it may have been trashy. Yeah, it is trashy. Yeah.

But nothing they did led to what jonathan did no no scott's family tried to take the case to the michigan supreme court but the supreme court was like no we're busy yeah goodbye so that happened but now we're back to jonathan's new criminal trial. The timeline on this is just messed up. Right. I kept all that together just for simplicity's sake. Of course. I like to keep it simple. Stupid.

Don't call me names. Defense attorney Jerome Sabata told the jury, hey, you don't have to set my client free. All I want is for you to convict him of what he did. And what he did was manslaughter. How's that? Well, you see, Brandy, he's not a murderer. He's a first-degree murderer.

He was premeditated. You ready for this quote? Yeah. Facts and circumstances are going to show that this killing was the result of provocation. Provocation by Scott Amager. No. It's the murder victim's fault. That's.

For saying Jonathan was hot. How does someone get up there and say that that's what i want to know and like scott's family that's who cares about who cares about them right yeah it's sorry it's your son's fault that's disgusting yeah Yeah. We've had a couple cases like this recently. Well, like the Logan Storm one that pissed me off so much. Where, you know, I get everyone needs a defense. Everyone should have a great defense attorney.

Yeah. But it shouldn't include shit like this. Yeah. I mean, are they coming right here? I know. If you guys can't tell, the police are coming after us. We're being raided, currently. Brandi called the cops. She said, I'm being held in a trash hole with no toilet and no refrigerator.

We do have internet, though. That's right. So this trial was somewhat similar to the first one, So we're just going to jump ahead to the verdict. The jury found him guilty of second degree murder. Really? Yeah. I just don't understand second degree murder. I would like to hope that if this trial took place today.

They would get first degree murder, 100%. Actually, no. They would get first degree murder and it'd be tried as a hate crime. Yeah. Although the gay panic defense is still legal in most states. Yeah. I'll get into that a little more later. But yeah, it's so upsetting. Mm-hmm.

Once again, he was sentenced to 25 to 50 years in prison. So the exact same decision from the jury, the exact same sentence that he got the first time. Jonathan was released from prison in 2017. Holy shit. I know he was 47 years old. Wow. So I want to go back to a little bit about what Paige sent us.

Paige sent us this link to the LGBTbar.org. So there's this movement to ban these defenses because of obvious reasons. They're terrible. And some states like California, Illinois, Rhode Island, and Nevada have banned them, but most haven't. I read somewhere that, and I think it was on this link link that there is some federal legislation that's in the works. Wow. So I hope that pulls through. No kidding.

That's nuts. That's the story. Huh. So that's one of those cases that I knew like some stuff about. Yeah. Not very much. And same here. Like I remember the episode.

Yeah. But I didn't know what the defense was. It's unreal to me that someone can try to argue that somebody had it coming, had violence or death coming at them. Yeah. That's ridiculous. Because they wanted to bang somebody yeah or yeah that's nuts yeah that was really good that was a heavy one though it was heavy um also because i so i read a bunch of articles for that obviously but then the last one I read was Scott's dad

taking the stand and talking about how much he misses his son it was it was so sad and like the article talked about how at times he you know he made the jury laugh at times you know there were tears because like you know he just seemed like a normal guy so he was a truck driver they had five kids and the attorney asked him why'd you have five kids and he had some kind of funny response like look i i was on the road a lot when you get home you know but he talked about how scott was you know really funny really into magic and you know just not the card game but i gather you know but anyway it's just it's really sad to think about like what what his life could have been. Absolutely.

And he probably just went on the Jenny Jones show for like a fun, crazy, wacky experience. Yes. Oh. Thank you to who sent in that page page. Oh, that was good. And thanks to the people who voted on Patreon. Yes. Thank you, guys. Yeah. They surprised the shit out of me yeah shocked now do you think because like i said i had never heard of the gay panic defense before

do you think that was what was at play in the glenn kapitsky murder uh yeah yeah yeah okay see i would i am still so thrown by that whole case because to me it's like although i've changed my mind again you have yeah i think he for sure did it just for the shits and giggles committing a murder i think i've decided that that's how i feel too i told you i keep going back and forth on it. I know. That's what's so crazy about that case to me is because I think you could see either. Absolutely. Yeah. Is it because you saw his ramen noodle hair?

Yeah, I was like, something's messed up. Do you want to explain his ramen noodle hair? Yeah. So the case happened in what, 2003? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And he has legit Justin Timberlake ramen noodle hair when he's at trial. Like curly hair that has been like, they tried to do frosted tips. Oh, yeah.

Oh, well, they did frosted tips. Well, but it's like they did too much frosted tips. And it just looks like straight up ramen noodles on his head. Yeah. It didn't even work for Justin Timberlake, so. Yeah, if it can't work for Justin Timberlake. Whew. Woof.

Woof. Woof indeed. You guys, this may become kind of a new part of the show. I don't know if we'll save this for Patreon exclusive episodes or what. Yeah. But we asked members of the Supreme Court if they wanted to ask us a few questions that we would answer at the end of the show and you guys send in a bunch of questions yeah who knows what will make the final cut yeah but we asked norman to come share a microphone with me and ask us the

questions no hanky panky over there guys guys. I'm sitting right here. No promises. Look at this man. Mm. Mm. Hi there. Hey. Hi, listeners. Alan asks, if you had to choose one notorious criminal to do an interview with, who would it be and why? Okay, my answer. Charles Manson.

Yeah, Charles Manson. 100% Charles Manson because Yeah, Charles Manson. 100% Charles Manson. Because I think he's fascinating, but I would be terrified the whole time that I would swear my allegiance to him at the end. What would you ask him? I would ask him what he thought made him so powerful. Wow. Yeah, I like that. Yeah.

That's a good question. wow yeah i like that yeah that's a good question um i don't think i would want to interview a notorious criminal you wouldn't even like a con man or something yeah not really wow i know that sounds that sounds kind of like holier than thou and stuff like bernie madoff you wouldn't want to like no i i have. I have. I have such. I have such a problem with people who are full of shit. If you could travel back in time and talk to Cassie Chadwick, you're telling me you wouldn't interview her. Oh, I. Oh, my God.

Yes. OK. I would 100% interview Cassie Chadwick. And by the end of it, she would convince me to empty out my bank account. Exactly. Yeah. OK. You're right. You're right.

You're right. Thank you. This is why we're good together. Got two questions from Andrew. Breaking the rules. Andrew wants to know, what is your most wholesome memory from your long-term friendship? We'll start with that. Okay.

I would say either trick or treating together oh god that was so much fun so much fun we always had a blast and then we'd go back and we'd watch like our version of a scary movie yeah and then eat a shit ton of candy do you want to tell them our version of a scary movie death becomes her yeah starring meryl streep and goldie hawn and bruce willis yes that's right that's right oh my gosh that was so much fun yeah um loved it we had so many wholesome memories uh going camping that was my other one when i said i had to going camping together riding our bikes and screaming going down hills yeah specifically it was knob noster right that had the big hill so So Knob Noster had this bike trail that we would ride our bikes on.

But you could go kind of off the trail and go down this big hill that had like this bump in it and you would get like a little bit of air going off of it. We thought it was the best. We did. Also going to the mall every Friday. Yep. Yeah.

Loading up. We were really pretty wholesome. I thought this could go on for a long time. Basically everything. Okay. Okay. We'll cut it off there. Andrew's follow-up question is, how much do I need to pledge each month in order to get a guest appearance on an episode?

Ooh. Only like a million dollars a month. That's right. Yeah. That seems fair. Pledge a mill. We'll even fly you out here uh kate asks how did kristin and norman meet oh this is a good story is it yeah i think it's good because i don't think you hear this that often okay well i went to a ball and I had to leave at a certain time.

And so I like ran off. I left my glasses. I left my size nine, nine West pump on the road. No, we met at a bar. Yeah. Like all respectable couples do. No, I think that's interesting. I don't think that couples like really meet like that that often.

Well, especially not nowadays with your who's it's and what's it's. It's kind of through mutual friends. Who's it's and what's it's galore? Who's it's and what's it's galore? You want thingamabobs? I've got 20! No, Norm, why don't you tell the story? Why?

You tell it. It's your podcast. Norm! Come on, come on come on we met through mutual friends at a bar wow wow and i've regretted it ever since that's what that is now i went to the bar with my buddy was 12 i snuck into the bar when i was 15. Kristen was 30 at that point. No, like legit though, you look 12 and like that. Yeah, in the first photo. Wow. Thank you. I went to the bar with my buddy and Kristen was already at the bar with some work friends.

And I knew some of your work friends. Yeah. But I didn't know you. And I knew one of your friends. And so somebody suggested we combine tables, and I sat next to Kristen, and we started talking, and the rest, as they say, is history. Do you remember what you said to me?

Hi. You don't remember what you said? I remember you said you worked for the newspaper. Uh-huh. And I asked... What did I... Did I say, do you deliver newspapers? No, I don't remember if you said that.

Maybe you did say that. I think I did. I think I asked, oh, so do you deliver them? Hey, paper boy. I clearly knew she was a reporter, but I was just joking around. Because she had one of those hats on that had the press card in it. Yeah, that's right. I said, hey, see?

I'm doing a story on young boys sneaking into bars no i for some reason thought you made some south park reference also um you made fun of this guy who worked at the newspaper who i also didn't like and i that made me really like you oh all right so there you have it you can find love at a bar next question um Kate wants to know will you two ever do a live show if you ask Kristen she would say no because she would piss her pants

yeah so it's one of those things it's like oh my gosh if we ever got big enough that that could be a thing I mean right now it couldn't be a thing our moms would be there for sure. Yes. And no one else. But no, if that ever did become a thing,

it'd be one of those things where I'd be like, oh, it'd be so great if we got that big. And then if it were to happen, I would die. You would be able to do it, though, because we'd be there together. You're right. You're right.

And I don't have any problem speaking in front of people. No. Yeah. So, yeah, I think it'd be awesome if we got to that point. Here's what I guarantee. If we ever do get to that point, you will be the first one to go on that case. I don't care what number we're on. There's no way I'm talking first.

No way. I'll be like. That's exactly what would happen. Okay, Haley has a few questions for you. We'll start with this first one. Brandy, Kristen, how are you all doing? Life has been pretty wild lately and I'm curious how you're adapting.

Do you want to take that first, Kristen? Or do you want me to? Not well, Haley. I don't know what will make the final cut here, but Norman and I are having a rough time with the no toilet situation in one house and then no internet in the other. Also no furniture in the other. Toilet or anything one house and then no internet in the other. Also no furniture in the other. Yeah.

Toilet or anything. Which do you prefer? No, I think things are definitely crazy, but they're great overall. I mean, I'm still blown away that we are getting to do this every week. This is so cool. Yeah. And having people support us is amazing yeah so overall really really good right now i'm reminded constantly of how often i have to pee

what about you um yeah i'm doing so good like my life has changed so much in the last how many months? Four months. What's amazing to me, I was thinking about this today. Your life has changed more in the past four months. Yeah. Than probably any other period in your life. Absolutely. Yeah. And I've probably I mean no probably I've never been happier like I'm doing so great and like um this podcast is really a big part of that like that we get to do this like and that we're the way people are supporting us it just blows my mind um yeah I'm doing so good I'm so so good. I'm so glad. Thanks.

Yeah, it's great. Second question. What is the most frustrating slash fascinating unsolved case that you know of? Oh, I know. Do you know? Are we going to say the same thing?

No, no. Because mine same thing? No. No. Because mine you think is stupid. Oh. Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum Heist. Oh, you're right. I don't fucking care about that. Oh. You don't want to know where those paintings are?

No. Oh, I want to know. What's yours? Jean Benet. Oh, Jean Benet. That's not a mystery. Well. You're right.

It's not. Her brother killed her. Yeah. Uh-huh. I said it. I'm going to go with Jack the Ripper. Ooh. Yeah, that're right. It's not. Her brother killed her. Yeah. I said it. I'm going to go with Jack the Ripper. Ooh. Yeah, that's good.

Okay, third question. Who is better at driving? I already know the answer to this, but go ahead. Everyone knows the answer to this. It's me. Yeah. Kristen admits that she's not a great driver. Oh.

And she will always let somebody else drive. She does not, like, fight to be the one to drive. I hate driving. Yes. It's one of the reasons I'm so bad at it. I avoided it all the time. All right. Norm's better than both of us, though.

Norm's very good. Oh, thank you. Final question from Haley. If you had to pick a different job, what would it be? So, Brandi, you are currently a stylist. Yes. And Kristen, you are a... Novelist?

Novelist. Slash writer, researcher on Gaming Historian, slash co-host of LGTC. Yeah, so this is a tough question for me because what the hell do I do? See, I wouldn't call myself a novelist. I would call you a writer in all of those things you write. Yes, yes. You do so much writing for the podcast.

You do, not just your episodes, you write all of our blurbs, you do most of our social media, you do all of that. You do a lot of writing. That's true. Okay, so writer. And you wrote a whole fucking novel.

I did. And I'm trying like hell to get that thing published. So send good vibes, people. So do you have an answer? We just determined what you do now. Okay, that's really tough because, and okay, the three of us. I know what she'd be. You do?

Yeah. Do you want to say it? What do you think? I think Kristen would be a. You do? Yeah. Do you want to say it? What do you think? I think Kristen would be a real estate agent. Oh. No, I'm not good enough with people. You're great with people. You just don't like it.

You're very good with people. Well, thank you. Thank you both. Yeah. I think I do love real estate. Yeah. We always look at, we all, the three of us look at real estate together all the time. Yeah.

What about you, Brandi? Interior decorator. Yeah. Do you want a decorator? Yeah, really. No. I do not. Well, it seems like you don't have much passion for this new field.

Wow. Those are good questions. Those were some tough questions. Those were. Well, except for the driving one i mean yeah that was easy yeah yeah one time when i was in driver's ed um i was at the i was at well you remember the walgreens you used to work yes um he had me park in that Walgreens. So I parked. And then I was supposed to obviously reverse out of the parking spot and take off down the road. Well, I didn't put it in reverse.

I put it in drive. And we drove up over onto the sidewalk. And I just, like, I freaked out. How have I never heard this story? Because I was so embarrassed when it happened. So I freaked out was Brandy working that day? no

we went up they had those cement blocks and then the sidewalk so it was like and and and driver's ed is not the kind of thing that you did through school it was like this private

private yeah and so you know this old man and he was like trying to calm me down he's like it's okay it's okay no one no one was hurt you know you know where you're okay did you cry i didn't cry but i mean i was really freaked out and And he goes, you know, you know something? Nobody's perfect. And I kind of nodded and he goes, well, there was one person who was perfect. But they crucified him. Holy hell! Oh, gosh!

What? Give me a minute. Woo! And I was like, okay. It's always uncomfortable when that comes up. I don't know that I've ever had it come up like that before. It was so weird. It was so weird. So just keep that in mind, guys.

Nobody's perfect. When I worked at that Walgreens, I don't know. I've had a lot of weird interactions with people. One of the weirdest interactions I've ever had with a person took place at that Walgreens. What happened? So, you know, I was cashier in the beginning. Right. And then I went on to work in the photo lab.

I was working the front register, which I didn't work the front register that often. I usually worked in the cosmetics department. And this woman came through the line and she said, oh, my gosh, your skin looks like doll skin. Doll skin? Like a doll's face. I can't remember exactly what she said. And then she reached out

and she caressed my cheek! Oh no! Yikes! I was like 16! I had no idea what to do! That's a serial killer! Yes!

That's a big yikes. Yeah. Do you have like a manager button? Right! Slammed down on that that asian well you didn't know what she had a knife in her pocket ready to cut your face right off that is yeah okay well those were great questions those were great questions that was so fun yes all right thank you norm soup's fun are you ready to do our first ever inductions into the supreme

brandy i think i am y'all this is going to be a very solemn affair because we take this very seriously it's a 100 real supreme court induction. We have selected 10 people. Which then Casey pointed out to us that we should have done nine, which she's of course right. We felt really stupid. We did. Because there are nine justices on the actual Supreme Court. I know. Why didn't we fucking think of that?

Well, you know. We can't think of everything or even much of anything no not usually if you're wondering how you could get inducted into the supreme court one way to do it is to go to law school then become a judge well really yeah become a lawyer and then get elected as a judge and then become friends with the president. Drink a lot of beer. Yeah. Get through that. I like beer. Or, or, hear me out.

You could do all that. Or you could pay $7 to become a patron. Yes, at the Supreme Court level. Please, everyone. Hold your applause until the end. We will be reading their names now. And their favorite ice cream

flavor. Kate Olsen. Mint chocolate chip. Haley. Chocolate chip. Isabella. Mint cookie crumble. Nino. Isabella. Mint. Cookie. Crumble. Nino. Rocky Road. With a lactaid sidecar. Alan Y.

Homestyle. Vanilla. Chris Flyger. Cheesecake. Haley Flyger Vanilla with Caramel Casey Frame My Dad's Homemade Vanilla Alyssa Berenger Chocolate Peanut Butter Bianca Barsenas Mocha Almond Fudge! Welcome to the supreme court all right i loved that thank you everybody who has supported us so far on patreon if you want to check that out head on over to patreon slash lgtc podcast or patreon.com slash lgtp

head on over to patreon.com slash lgtc podcast while you're at it find us on all of our other social media we're on facebook we're on twitter we're on instagram we're on reddit we're on youtube is that all of them that's it uh and then head on over to iTunes. Leave us a rating. Leave us a review. We're still working on our 300 goal. We're about halfway there from our last goal. Sweet. Yeah.

And then be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web, and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from newspapers.com, Wikipedia, and the LGBT bar. And I got my info from the St. Louis Dispatch,

the Daily Caller, the Pitch, and Wikipedia. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.