Let's Go To Court! - 78: Dating Naked & the Abduction of Amber Hagerman

Episode Date: July 17, 2019

When Jessie Nizewitz agreed to be on VH1’s reality dating show “Dating Naked,” she knew one thing for certain — she’d be filmed naked. When Jessie arrived on set, she says producers encouraged her to wrestle naked with her date. They urged her to playfully slam him into the sand. Jessie was hesitant, until they reassured her that all of her private parts would be blurred when the episode aired. A few weeks later, Jessie was back at home, watching her episode. Just as promised, her naked body was blurred. But then, for a split second, it wasn’t. That image was captured and spread all over the internet. Jessie was humiliated. She felt lied to. So she decided to sue.  Then Brandi tells us about the abduction of Amber Hagerman. Her name might not initially sound familiar, but you probably know her legacy. Amber was just nine years old, riding her bike a few blocks from her grandparents’ home when a man abducted her. A neighbor witnessed the abduction. He called police to report what he’d seen. Soon, the FBI stepped in. But did they have enough information to find Amber? And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “This is why Dating Naked was Canceled,” by Nicki Swift for YouTube “‘Dating Naked’ cast member sues after crotch-blur fail,” by Jamie Schram and Amber Sutherland for the New York Post “‘Dating Naked’ cast member sues after VH1 showed her naked,” James Hibberd for Entertainment Weekly Court documents “‘Dating Naked’ lawsuit seeks to strip Viacom of $10M for showing too much,” by Dominic Patten for Deadline “‘Dating Naked’ $10M lawsuit stripped by judge,” by Dominic Patten for Deadline “‘Dating Naked” $10M “inadvertent” nudity suit should be tossed, says Viacom,” by Dominic Patten for Deadline “$10M ‘Dating Naked’ lawsuit dismissed,” HNGN.com In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Amber Hagerman” by David Krajicek, The Crime Library “Amber Hagerman: 20 Years Later” CBS DFW “Amber Alert” wikipedia.org.  “Ariel Castro Kidnappings” wikipedia.org

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about dating naked.

And I'll be talking about the abduction of amber hagerman i am so hyper right now oh i i know we just went and ate i had so much sugar because i had breakfast for lunch yeah we had breakfast for lunch it was delicious you had a french toast platter oh amazing just sugar sugar on top of sugar on top of sugar hey have you guys checked out our patreon yet um okay true fun fact i feel like we've been seeing each other like so much so much and it's because we just recorded our patreon bonus episode yes it went up um well it's old news old news by the time this comes out yeah unless you haven't listened to the bonus episode yet and then to gain access to all you got to do head on over to patreon.com slash lgtc podcast sign up at the appellate or supreme court levels

instant access and so i covered the trial of Timothy McVeigh. Yes. Which was, I gotta say, it's a heavy episode. I mean, you go into that knowing he's a giant shithead and it's still fucking terrible. Yeah. And then you covered a case that made me want to flip over 12 tables. Yeah. I was so angry.

It was a case I'd never heard of before. I had never heard of it until I covered it and people are fired up about it and that's all i can tell you no there's a lot of discussion about it going on in our discord which you also get access to if you sign up for the patreon but yeah it was give us a little taste of it. It was about a guy who brutally murdered his girlfriend and then somehow managed to gain a lot of support. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Can't even talk about it.

Okay. We're moving on. Terrible case. So all that is to explain that I know for those of you who aren't on the Patreon, I just did Pepsi points. It was a light, fluffy case last week. I'm doing another light one this week. Oh, thank goodness. And it's just because I just covered Timothy McVeigh.

World's biggest shithead. World's biggest shithead. First of all, do you remember the VH1 reality show Dating Naked? Yes. Do you really? That's what this is. I know this case. Is this the pixel thing?

Yes. Yes! Okay. Okay, I love that you said that because from your intro, that did not click at all until you said the game show. I do know this case. Okay. But I know, like...

Okay. Quit. Quit. I know this much about it. Brandi's being inappropriate, you guys. But did you ever watch the show when it was on? Yes. Not regularly.

I remember seeing the show, though. Okay. Okay. So, I never watched it, but it was on VH1. It aired from 2014 to 2016. And it's like exactly what you think it is. Hot young people would fly out to tropical locations. They'd go on dates naked.

It's like if Naked and Afraid were a dating show. Don't you besmirch Naked and Afraid. Naked and Afraid is for serious survivalists, and I love it. Dating Naked was just stupid, right? Yeah, I mean, it was dumb, but yeah, it's like. What? Well, I was going to say it's like Naked and Afraid meets something else, but I couldn't think of what it might meet. I mean, see, I think we're thinking about this too hard.

It's just simply a dating show where people are naked. Okay. Because, get this. Now think about the dates you've gone on. So many. So many. As we've discussed, you love to play the field. A serial dater.

I date constantly, all the time. I'm never not dating. Uh-huh. The same guy forever. So on these naked dates, they would go horseback riding. Oh!

I know. Talk about bazoongas bouncing in the wind. Well, do you want to explain that, ma'am? Kristen was just very insulted that I was not looking at her boobs earlier. Okay, well, that makes me sound desperate and weird. Well, that's what you said. But I was scooting my chair.

You were bouncing your chair across the room. Well, exactly. And so I was like, oh, sorry, my bazoongas were going every which way. And Brandi was like, what? I didn't notice. I said, I spent shockingly little time looking at your boobs, Kristen. I'm very sorry. And what was your response, Kristen?

Apology not accepted. And something about not being able to stop looking at my ass in these jeans. Thank you. Clearly, you're the better long-term friend. If sexual harassment is a good thing, then I'm doing a great job of it. No, Brandy, you pointed something out to me recently that every time you wear a particular pair of jeans, you compliment my butt. I always say, are those new jeans? I i love them i don't think i always say something

directly about your butt maybe i do i think you do well i'm sorry okay i'll stop but every time and you're like you know you say this to me every time i wear these jeans yes i saw you today and like the compliment was like almost and i stopped myself because i don't be a creep they're the same jeans is that like did you hear my voice in your head doing that i just want you to know those those jeans are just normal okay they're just they're all right didn't spend any time staring at you is this i'm wearing on creepy i will try and spend more time looking at your boobs krist. I'm very sorry. I did not mean to neglect you.

All good. Kiki is jumping into a bag right now. I'm sure the mic will pick that up. That won't be noisy at all. Okay. So they'd go horseback riding naked, as you do. They'd get on jet skis naked. No, thank you. Right? I don't want that on my undercarriage and who okay you know these are rentals yeah so who has to get on these jet skis

well who's yeah who's disinfecting it before you put your genitals on it no one who is disinfecting it again once your genitals are off of it. You know the answer is no one. I know! That is terrifying. Also, they'd go bicycling naked, which I think sounds like... That's just an accident waiting to happen. I know. Because at least with a horseback, you've got a saddle. Yeah. Some of the heads of those bicycle seats are...

Also, they'd sit cross-legged, which is just disgusting'd sit cross-legged which is just disgusting like first of all i think a lot of people don't look great sitting cross-legged yeah anyway so in one episode oh god this is okay i did watch obviously what i could find about this show on YouTube. And in one episode. Sorry. They were out in the ocean. Okay, so picture, they've got these floats. And you've got one foot in each float.

And each float is a banana. And so they've got a paddle. And so they're just stark naked. On these bananas? Floating on these bananas. And, you know, like their legs are going every which way. I mean, it's just, it's a mess. It's a mess. So the show blurred out frontal nudity.

But, you know, your ass was there for all to see. But they didn't show like, sorry to be graphic, they didn't show holes. Sorry to be graphic. They didn't show holes. But just like if you were walking along or floating along in your banana floaties and your butt showed, you know, they would not blur that. Just butt, no hole. Yeah. Got it. Got it. Got it. I'm following.

Okay, so even though you watch this show all the time, constantly, it wasn't super popular. Yeah. constantly you know it wasn't super popular so when it first came out people were like whoa about the premise super into it but the show itself i guess wasn't that exciting no it's pretty lame i mean what i wonder spell it out christ Well, at a certain point, should the people just watch porn? Oh. Right? I mean, to me, this whole premise seems kind of stupid because it's just like two annoying people. Yeah. Naked on a date.

Everything's blurred out. Yeah. I'll probably cut this because my parents listen. You think your parents have never seen porn? Is that what you're getting at? Gross. Oh, I'll probably cut this because my parents listen. You think your parents have never seen porn? Is that what you're getting at? Gross. Oh, my God.

How could you? You monster. You monster. And Kristen had to stop recording. Obviously, they haven't. Because if they had, we wouldn't have had to tell them what DP stands for. You haven't got all of them. I know. Okay, so yeah.

So my question is... Yeah, it gets boring. Yeah. I mean... Do they have sex on the show? No.'s not porn it's just naked people on it probably just watch porn instead right so it's just it's boring yeah after after you get over the shock of oh these two strangers are meeting naked on a beach because like on naked and afraid like i Naked and Afraid, like, I am not being titillated by the nudity. I am horrified because there's got to be bugs getting in places.

Well, and you know they are because they show those terrible sunburns and the bites. Norman and I, several years ago, had a vacation where we just sat in an Airbnb and watched Naked and Afraid. It was a wonderful vacation so the show like i said the premise captured a lot of attention of attention what's happening with the animals i know it's like is a storm a brewing why why are they all in here well let me tell you boo would not give a shit if someone was in the well so the premise was super intriguing to people but then people watched it and they were like kind of boring so the ratings were not great it only lasted for three seasons

it was just people going on these awkward dates getting their genitals bit by a swarm of mosquitoes and getting sunburns on their wieners. Yeah. And that's technical. That is, yes, that's the medical term. Looks, what I see here is a sunburned wiener. Thank you, doctor. On top of that, a lot of people thought that dating naked was appalling. Conservative groups protested the show.

Oh, yeah. Most of their big advertisers removed ads from the show. I saw something somewhere that cannot possibly be true. It said that 90% of corporate advertisers pulled their ads from the show. No way. It's like, no, if 90% have pulled, then the show's not on the air anymore. Exactly. That's ridiculous.

Yeah. Anyway. But that's not why I'm talking about dating naked. I know why you're talking about dating naked. I'm talking about dating naked because of a season one contestant named Jesse Neiswitz. In the spring of 2014, 28-year-old Jesse, who was, I don't know if they called her a former model or current model, but anyway, gorgeous as she could be, filled out an application to audition for an untitled TV show. At the time, all she knew was that it would be a reality show and that it was a dating show. A few weeks later, she got selected to do a Skype interview with the casting agents.

A few weeks later, she got selected to do a Skype interview with the casting agents. During this conversation, the casting people were like, Yeah, so here's the deal. It's a naked dating show. You'll have to be completely naked, but when the show airs, we'll blur out your frontal nudity, we'll blur out your genitals. And if you're okay with that, then we can move forward. So Jesse thought it over and decided that, yeah, she would participate. After all, it's not like people are going to see her genitals on TV. In April, she got the good news. She made the cut. She would be part of Dating Naked. Her episode would be the third one in the first series i think i meant season but anyway that you probably pulled that from a british article

or something you think so they call it yeah oh yeah i probably did instead of saying series um like in brit speak they say or instead of saying season they say series well that just shows that i turned my brain off and was just like pulling whatever they said. So she says that basically the whole time she was assured that, again, frontal and genital nudity would be blurred out when the show was broadcast. At one point on her date, they did what most couples do on a date. They found a patch of inviting sand and they did a bit of naked wrestling oh yeah what'd you and david do for your first date jesse says that the producers kept asking her to do some like hardcore wrestling takedown moves

what okay well what's what's wrong with that? Why are you wrestling on your date? Because it's a stupid TV show. But are you more mad about, like, why are you wrestling on a date, or why are you being asked to do, like, takedown Hulk smash?

I'm combining wrestling and I'm sorry. Yeah, that's incredible. Suplex. You know. Wow. What's that called? I know. I know the one you're talking about.

And for people who are listening, which is everyone but us, like, we're putting down our elbows really hard on a mat right now. But that's the part that gets you fired up no the wrestling in general yeah but i mean it what would you rather do put both feet in banana floaties and then head out to sea or would you rather honestly yes i'm not wrestling in sand okay naked okay you know what you're right in veg oh god how there's nothing to protect against it. You go to the beach, sometimes you end up with sand in your vag, and you're not wrestling and or naked. Well, maybe you're not.

How do you think I get such a healthy glow? There's no better exfoliator than wrestling naked on a beach. Everybody knows that. Excuse me. I'm not as enlightened as you are, Kristen. Clearly. But so she's like, what the hell? Sure.

And she asks again, okay, you're going to blur everything, right? And they're like, yes, we will blur everything. Don't worry. Go ahead and Hulk smash this guy. I know it's not the right term. It's just what I'm thinking. So she Hulk smashes the guy. Power elbow?

That sounds stupid. There's no way that's the right. What the fuck's it called? I gotta know. Okay, look it up. There's no way it's called a power elbow. Elbow drop. Okay, elbow drop.

That sounds so much cooler than power elbow. You're right. It does. Yeah. Okay, so she elbow drops this guy. Now, back to this important case i can't believe you've interrupted me so many times talking about dating naked over here very important you weren't nearly so interrupted with the timothy mcveigh case no because i was just too busy being horrified yeah okay well fast forward to July 31st, 2014. What? That's my dad's birthday.

I love birthdays. I know you do. I know you do. A lot of people don't know that Brandy's dad was born in 2014. People think it's impossible, but it's what she believes. People think it's impossible, but it's what she believes. Jesse was back home, probably nursing some invasive bug bites and a killer sunburn. And sand in her vag! Yeah, I mean... That's gonna throw the pH off.

Well, no kidding, right? Oof. Oof. Oof. I can't even... I mean, you'd find a pearl up there eventually, right? Should I take that out? No, I loved it.

Okay. You know, because people call vaginas clams. I know. That's what I was thinking. Do you like my hand? Yeah. I didn't know what a clam was, so thank you for that hand gesture. This is ridiculous.

And Jessie was so excited because her episode was about to air. Oh, good. So she watched it, of course. And then the episode got to the naked wrestling part. And holy shit. For. Okay. Some sources said a couple seconds.

The court documents said one second. One place said less than a second, which I'm like, okay, well, how are we even? Come on now. You could see her entire business. Vagina. Okay, so here's, let me give you. Butthole. Taint.

Goodness gracious, Brandi, but yes. All of it? Yes. Oh, I'm sorry. Taint got a goodness gracious? Well, I know how you love to paint a picture. And I'm just, I guess I'm a little more buttoned up than you are. So, okay.

Do you remember how you know this case? No. Okay. Here's how you know it. Like, when we first started the podcast, we were talking about what cases we wanted to cover. And I told you about this case and i showed you the picture of this woman yes and then i decided not to do it because i was like well i already told brandy the shocking part and but now i figured maybe you would have forgotten

about it definitely forgot about it okay so this image is like shocking so it's her she has this guy on the sand you know like flat on his back and she's on all fours with her ass in the air and the camera is shooting from behind her so okay this we're getting to this awkward part in the podcast i don't know what we'll cut and what we won't. I feel terrible for this woman because, you know, it's this image was taken. Obviously, she knew there were cameras on her. She knew she was naked, but she thought she would be blurred. She was assured she would be blurred. And she wasn't. Yeah. And because this happened in 2014, even though it was only on for a split second, people captured the image. It's readily available online. It's readily available.

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I don't want to, I feel terrible for her. I've seen the image, but I'm not going to like point anyone to it just because. Yeah. Anyway. She's wrestling on the ground ground her whole business is shown for somewhere between a second and a couple seconds right plenty long enough for it to be captured

and be on the internet for everyone to see and forever i mean this is how many years later and this poor woman like it's still out there so it it was instantly on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Tumblr. Jessie says she was humiliated and embarrassed. Her grandma saw it and was not pleased. Her parents saw it. They were not impressed. She later said, I have no problem going. Don't say not impressed.

Well, OK, I meant more like, oh, God, that's not how I meant it. I meant more like they were probably like, think about your choices. You know, they were like upset. Oh, God. Although I went on this show knowing that I would be nude while taping, I was told that my private parts would be blurred for TV. If you watch an episode, you will see that the blur actually makes it less revealing than a bikini would. Obviously, I did not expect the world to see my private parts. This is not what I anticipated or what any other contestants on the show anticipated. Yeah. Okay. I want to pause here because public reaction wait no no i'll pause

later okay unpause so here we go we're hitting play again jesse says that you know having this image broadcast on tv affected her in many ways she was emotionally distressed, it hurt her professionally, and it cost her a budding relationship. With this dude? No, not the wrestling guy. New guy. Okay, this is... Surely that did not work out. This is the part that I think is kind of stupid, but anyway, so...

He was like, now the whole world's in your vag, I'm not interested. He said poop shoot. Poop shoot. No, so they'd been dating for about a month when the episode aired. And here's what happened in her words. Okay, I'm ready.

You're already looking skeptical. I am. He never called me again after the show aired. I would have hoped we could have had a long-term relationship. He was employed, Jewish, in his 30s, and that's pretty much ideal. Oh my gosh! Okay, so I think that part is stupid.

That is stupid. Maybe he never called you again because he didn't like that you did the show, period. Maybe it had nothing to do with seeing a flash of your poop shoot as kristen put it yeah i maybe he's a dick who didn't ever call you again yeah yeah i and i just think a month-long relationship like let's just calm down yeah you know anyway this was all too much for jesse she'd been lied to and humiliated so she said let's go to court okay so she sued vh1's parent company viacom as well as the production company's firelight entertainment and lighthearted entertainment for what do you think what's the right amount here and factor in that budding relationship with the five million dollars ten million wow

so here's this is where i want to pause what's your reaction to all this uh i think it sucks but i don't think she has a case. Why? Because she agreed to be on a show where she was naked. But she was reassured that her genitals would be blurred. Mm-hmm. I don't know. She was, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I guess she was. What's the contract say?

Well, we'll get to that. Uh-huh. Yeah, I mean, I guess she was. What's the contract say? Well, we'll get to that. Uh-huh. But, so, I ask your opinion just because public opinion was, like, super clear. Everyone thought she was an idiot. Yeah. People were just like, um. What the fuck did you expect? You went on a show naked.

You went on a show called Dating Naked. You were there completely naked, and they showed you naked. Mm-hmm. Gee, what did you expect? Yeah. I feel like I, I don't know. You side with her, of course. I do.

Of course. Why? Of course. Why? Of course. I know it's very Kristen of you. Explain yourself. Um.

I don't know what I mean by that, honestly. I'm just not surprised at all that you side with her. Yeah, yeah. Fits you. Is it because I'm so often naked and I expect no photos taken at any time? Often naked and expect no photos taken and naked and expect no photos no no i mean yes i agree that what she was told would happen did not happen um but i think that she should have anticipated that this was a possibility she was naked and wrestling and being recorded i mean fucking every camera guy every production assistant everybody that was there for the show saw it that's totally different how is it totally different

okay so we're talking about i i don't know tv so a. Oh, there's not a hundred people. Yes, a crew is huge. Okay, okay. A hundred people. We're talking about a hundred people versus... The world. The world. Yeah. That's insane. And you're talking about a hundred people...

Once a hundred people have seen it, what's... No, no. We're talking about a hundred people for a limited time only versus the world whenever they want to Google it. That's totally different. Yeah, I mean, I guess. You guess? Yeah, I guess. What are you talking?

I don't know. I think that this was a risk of doing the show. You agreed to be recorded naked. And you know what? the world saw you naked wow you know what that's a very brandy opinion it is a brandy opinion and by that i mean it's a bad take. No, so the public was just a bunch of brandies, you know. They were like, you showed your cooter and everyone saw your cooter and you should have anticipated it. What did you expect?

Yeah. Honestly, that's how I feel. I'm very sorry, Kristen. You don't seem sorry. I'm not sorry at all. I think she should have anticipated that this was a possibility. But she asked repeatedly and they reassured her repeatedly. Does that not make a difference? Not to me.

It doesn't. You still agree to be recorded naked. Like that footage could have leaked before it got pixelated. Would you not expect that if it did get leaked that you could sue for that? No. Damn. Because you agreed to be recorded naked. On the condition that your genitals be blurred out.

Yeah, I get that. Do you? I do. Do you really? I get that she asked and they said, yeah, yeah, sure, sure. We're going to blur everything out. No problem. Yep.

Just sign right here. All right. Now, could you suplex him? Fully nude. Damn. We're going to get down right behind you. Get a real good angle here. Damn. And we're gonna get down right behind you. Get a real good angle here. Ugh. I don't feel

bad for her. You don't? I really don't. Oh my god. I think it sucks. Yeah, I think it sucks that there's a picture of her butthole, vagina, and tank readily available on the internet. Yes, I think it sucks for her. I do. I don't

think she has a case. Oh, oh. Okay, moving on. Saying I don't feel bad for her is not true. I do feel bad. I hate I don't love that that picture is readily available for anybody who can take the time to look for it on the internet. I think she should have anticipated it was a possibility, and I don't think she has a case. One quick thing. I am now taking applications for new long-term friends. No, you can still be the co-host.

I just need a new long-term friend. Requirements are you have to agree with me about everything. And give me constant compliments where's norm when we meet him right oh norm would be so good so good to weigh in on this no you're only saying that because you and norm are secretly the same person and that's why no one ever sees you in the same room together he would just come in and agree with you I think he might he might surprise us he might not agree with me nah he'd agree with you I think he would yeah

okay okay um yeah so the world is full of brandies I hate to break it to everyone and they just said you know you went on a show called Dating Naked. What the fuck did you expect? You got naked.

You know, it happened. Plus, you signed a contract. And the contract, quit it. I can already, yeah, I see your face. Hold on, let me uncover this ear so I can hear you clearly. So tiny I can barely see it. What's the contract say? Kristen.

The contract said. Essentially, you're going to be naked and we can do whatever we want with that. Yep. Essentially, you're going to be naked and we can do whatever we want with that. Yep. But Jesse's attorney, Matthew Blitt, argued that, yes, she'd signed a written contract. But when the producers told her again and again that they'd blur out her genitals, that constituted an oral contract. And they had broken that oral contract. Don't give me that face. I think a written contract tr broken that oral contract. Don't give me that face.

I think a written contract trumps an oral contract. Shut up. Plus, they knew that by broadcasting her genitals on TV, they would cause her severe humiliation and distress. I agree that it was not the right thing to do. See, I think they did it on accident, though. That's just it. Yeah.

Yes, that is the next point I was going to make. I don't think anybody intentionally tried to ruin this girl's life. No. And hopefully it didn't. I mean, you know. I'm sure she's doing just fine. Well, I hope. Yeah.

I mean, she just got blasted by some jerk of a podcast host. I didn't say that. I'm just saying. I think she should have anticipated that this could happen. In the lawsuit, Matthew asked that the defendants stop distributing the uncensored images. Duh. I think that's reasonable. stop distributing the uncensored images.

Duh. I think that's reasonable. That they remove all the images of Jesse's uncensored vagina and anus from the internet, which I don't know how you do that. You can't do that. I mean, what? What year is this guy living in? Okay, great. Let me just hit the delete button on that.

I'm going to need you to take a magic eraser to the internet and just scrub that clean. This is reminding me one time. Oh God, I wish Norman was here. He was, it was when he was Me too. Aww. It was when he

was working in computer tech still and he went out to some client's place, a business, and she asked him to remove negative reviews from Google. He was like, ma'am, I can't. She was so pissed, too. She was like, yeah, if I could hack into Google, I wouldn't be working here.

Sure, hold on. Let me just get on Google real quick and take care of that oh yeah now this will take a few days for it to take effect in the meantime i'm like ten thousand dollars so they he also asked that they pay her court costs and give her $10 million for economic loss, which, okay, I'm kind of skeptical. Emotional distress, sure. Mental anguish, yep. Humiliation and embarrassment. But Viacom, much like Brandy's face, was like, hell to the no. Yeah. You signed a contract.

You said you'd be naked and we could record it. That's the new hit single from Brandi Egan. It's called You Signed a Contract. Subtitle, You Knew You'd Be Naked. And it is racing up the charts. This is Brandi's first song. So they filed a motion to dismiss her lawsuit. Yeah.

In that motion. All right. All right. In that motion, they admitted that, yes, they showed Jesse naked, but that it was an inadvertent gap in digital blurring and it lasted for less than a second. So I totally agree. I think it was completely a mistake. Yeah. But to say it was less than a second,

it's like it's permanent on the internet. Yeah. So then they decided to insult her. They wrote, Jess Niswitz is a former model and sometimes actress who wanted a shot at fame. Which I'm like, okay, I don't know what place that has in a court document. Yeah, no kidding.

So she deserves to have this image all over the internet. But they didn't just insult her. They also made some pretty solid points about the contract she signed. Or rather, contracts. Me. My God, you are so much more annoying than I thought you'd be. I thought you would agree with me on this. You really did? Yeah, I thought we'd just

be two ladies sticking up for Jessie. I'm sorry. I do feel bad that her fucking taint's on the internet for everyone to see. she should have anticipated it and i'm guessing that she signed that contract pretty willingly when they were like we'll give you x amount of dollars for doing this i bet she didn't get any money oh i bet she got a thousand

bucks you think so yeah oh yeah maybe i just assume all those dumb reality shows it's like this is your shot at fame here you go i bet you get like a small amount of money for okay are you ready to hear about these contracts i just know you're gonna be so thrilled she signed i hate to take the air out of your sails there kristin it's okay i just know you the air out of your sails there, Kristen. It's okay, I just know you're... Wind out of your sails? You know, it is wind, but I feel like either works. I mean, it's the same stuff, really. She signed three agreements, and in those agreements,

she agreed that she would participate in the show and be filmed fully nude, and that the footage could be and i'm quoting here exhibited and distributed without restriction and that the producers would have sole discretion in how the footage was edited that she waived any right to sue over her appearance on the show and that she would be liable for attorney's fees should she sue in violation of her contract okay so what that sounds like to me is that she doesn't have a fucking case and she now owes viacom money yeah it sure does and whatever lawyer this is that she got to take on this case is a fucking idiot he is a big time lawyer he's a big time lawyer. He's a big deal.

He thought he would beat that contract? Uh, yeah. Yeah. They also said that even if the producers did tell Jessie that her genitals would be blurred, it didn't matter. Doesn't say it in the contract. Well, no. Here was their their argument because the contract she signed all said that oral contracts were a no-go either it's in writing

and signed both by both parties or it just didn't matter doesn't happen so what you're saying is that a written contract trumps an oral contract? According to this, because they had it in writing. I'm going to stick my tank in your face. Oh, God! See how you like it? That's the only way I can think to make you less smug right now but jesse's attorney didn't seem worried he said that viacom and the production companies intentionally didn't blur her genitals no and good luck proving it yeah i think that's so stupid

and because it was intentional they were officially working outside of the participation agreement. I think he was just grasping at straws here. I mean, that's so dumb. Ultimately, in the spring of 2015, nearly six months after Jesse filed her lawsuit, Judge Anil Singh sided with Viacom. He granted their motion to dismiss the lawsuit, and he ordered that Jesse pay all of their legal fees. Yes. Shortly after the judge handed down...

I'm sorry, I mean, what? I am shocked. I'm going to throw my coffee at you. Followed by your taint. I'm not sure what the proper order is. Yeah, coffee. Well, you start with coffee, then you escalate to taint. For sure.

Shortly after the judge handed down his decision, VH1 began casting for their second season of the show. They said they wanted participants who were tired of being single and ready to be vulnerable and fully exposed and that's the story of dating naked stop with that look on your face i just think

what happened to her was outside the scope of what could have been expected. And I disagree. Maybe not expected, but anticipated. What's the difference? There is a difference. Expect means this is the outcome you expect to happen. Anticipate means you could see the possibility of this happening. She should have seen the possibility that something would have gotten through.

And be on the Internet for forever and whenever people would like. Well, no. I mean, obviously, she would assume that you could just hit the delete button and that gets scrubbed from the internet. I mean, that's. Much like her lawyer. I mean, that's the part that gets to me is like, so it follows her around for the rest of her life. Yes, because she agreed to do a show naked. Oh, my God.

Brandy, she agreed to it for it to be blurred. Here's the deal. I don't want any of my body parts on the Internet for anyone to see. So you know what I'm not going to do? Let anybody film them. Period. Too late. Because I've got a camera in my bathroom.

And the guys online really enjoy what they're seeing. In my bathroom. And the guys online really enjoy what they're seeing. Well, that was fun. Okay. All right, lady. Are you ready to stay pissed? Oh, no. Did you pick another one?

No. No, my case is terrible oh great for the record and you know about it you just probably don't know you know about it okay how's your hand-eye coordination brandy pretty good here's what it comes down to i have terrible depth perception really yes well obviously i had no idea yeah i think it has something to do with my astigmatism oh because i don't have it when i wear my glasses like i don't have the depth perception issues do you ever wear your glasses no why have you always been so my prescription is so weak i don't

even legally need it to drive it has nothing like my eyesight is not that bad but i have an astigmatism and so like i see halos when i drive at night and then clearly have depth perception issues. Continue. What do you want to say? You don't think you look as cute with glasses, do you? Okay. Here is the real story. Uh-huh.

I think my eyes are my best feature, and covering those fuckers up with glasses just isn't doing anything for me. And now we've uncovered the truth. Yeah. Well, the truth is I don't even really need them. The halos at night are fine. They're like little angels following me around. And, um, oh, also I'm vain. So my eyes are all I have going for me, Kristen. How dare I cover them with glasses.

So you can't even see them. You just see light glaring off. You don't even see my eyes. The only thing you have to worry about is if they made glasses for your butt. Shut up! Yeah, that's the day you need to worry. Okay, now I'll stop talking about your butt okay now tell me this terrible abduction story okay

by the way we should probably explain what that depth perception was so i went to set my phone down because i was posting a picture of peanut in the discord between cases here because peanuts hanging out with us while we're recording yes looking so cute and as i went to set my phone down i thought that i was setting it gently on directly onto the stand and somehow my mic cord kept getting in the way it was like she could not see what she was doing the court seemed so far away it was not okay tell me about an abduction you know i creepily enjoy abduction stories no this is not gonna no okay something good comes out of this oh well it's going to be some kind of law because of a terrible murder. Yep. Okay, here we go.

And it's the abduction of Amber Hagerman. Oh, well, I've been alerted to what's going on. There you go. All right. A lot of this comes from my boy, David Kradicek for Crime Library. He and I are best friends. He doesn't know it. Well, clearly you're taking applications for new best friends.

I haven't filled the role yet, okay? There's still time for you to start acting right. All because I said that poor girl, if she didn't want her taint out there, she shouldn't have put her taint out there. Damn! She didn't. I'm just saying that, you know what, I also do not want my taint on the internet. But you know what I'm not doing? I'm not running around putting my taint on video anywhere.

I don't think that's the same because she was reassured and she did that under the impression that it would be blurred. Uh-huh. Okay. What do you mean, okay? Okay. It said that they had the contract said that they had the right to edit and distribute that as they wished. Just because you got one guy telling you yeah yeah yeah we're totally gonna blur everything you think that guy's in charge in charge of viacom and in charge of every step

of the editing process no that dude was probably like a production assistant probably but can you trust no one and how thoroughly are you reading every contract you should read every contract thoroughly for itunes do you read no i've never read a terms and conditions you've never read any contract thoroughly um i've read contracts thoroughly i've never read a terms and conditions thoroughly but you know what those don't involve me putting my taint out for anyone to see all right quit saying this is a family podcast we can say i'm saying the surefire way to make sure there's not a picture of your taint on the internet is to make sure a picture of your taint doesn't exist well i can't argue with that. I mean, that's pretty rock solid.

Anyway. Anyway. Shout out to my boy, David Kradicek. Let's talk about Terrible Case. Eight minutes. That's all the time it took for the lives of everyone who loved amber hagerman to be changed forever eight minutes it was saturday january 12th 1996 amber and her brother and her mother had stopped in at the Arlington, Texas home of her of Amber's grandmother. They were out front like they're her grandpa was like tinkering with a car. They were playing and the kids were playing in the driveway. Mother and grandmother were talking. Amber's nine years old. Her brother's five. They get bored of the adults talking. The grandmother has bikes in her garage. And so Amber asked if she and her brother can go ride the bikes around the neighborhood. And I'm sorry, how old is the brother?

He's five. Nine and five. And grandma says, yes, but just once around the block. And so they rode off on their bikes, Amber and her brother. They rode down around the corner. And then like around the third corner, there was like a grocery store, a Winn-Dixie grocery store. It was closed. It had been vacant for some time. But it had this like ramp in the parking lot that kids like to ride their bikes up and kind of like, you know, jump off of.

Not like anything crazy. We're not like, we're not X Games. Okay, I gotcha. And so they rode their bikes over to this parking lot, rode off the ramp a couple times. bikes over to this parking lot, rode off the ramp a couple times. And then Amber's brother turned back to go home. Only Amber didn't follow him. She stayed at the Winn-Dixie parking lot. And when her brother Ricky got home, mom and grandma were like, where's yeah and he said she didn't come with me I don't know where sissy is and so the adults ran up to the grocery store where they'd left him um I guess the grandpa like hopped in his car and drove up there yeah when when the brother was like I don't I don't

know where she is she didn't follow me back he gets up there and he sees a police car in the parking lot. And so he pulled up to it. And the officer told him that a man who lived nearby had called the police because he saw he heard a girl screaming. And when he looked out, he saw a man carrying a young girl into and putting her into his pickup truck. And when the officer arrived, all he found was the bicycle. No little girl, no pickup truck. Eight minutes had passed since Amber got on her bike and rode from her grandmother's house to the time the 911 call was placed i have goosebumps that just blows my mind me too me too because you think about gosh we were riding our bikes all the time at age oh yeah nine i mean that's it's not old but i mean it's old enough that i feel like you can yeah allow your well maybe i guess you can't i guess you can't that's so sad so this was 1996 amber was born in november of 1986 she's our age yeah i mean she's a year all right all right you're younger than you uh-huh

yeah but like this would have been the same time that we were growing up in i know we were riding our bikes at alone at that same time it's horrifying yeah the neighbor that had called the police didn't really have much information. He had just told the same story, that he had heard a girl screaming. He looked out. He saw a black pickup truck and that he saw somebody get out of the truck, grab the little girl, shove her in and take off. Oh, my God. Yeah. What happened after the abduction of Amber Hagerman was kind of your typical response to a tragedy of this scale.

Like her picture was plastered everywhere. The parents went on TV and begged for her safe return. Please don't hurt my baby, her mother said on the news. She's just an innocent child. Please, please bring her home safe. Please. The media interviewed the neighbor who had called 911. And again, he didn't have like any information.

He told one interviewer, I saw her riding up and down in the parking lot. She was by herself. I saw this pickup. He pulled out, jumped out, grabbed her. When she screamed, I figured the police ought to know about it. So I called them. I wish I had known more. I wish I had done more.

I did all I could do. Yes. And I agree. Yeah. Yeah. I think he did. I mean, what if he hadn't, what if he'd heard the scream and hadn't looked out his window or assumed it was a parent with an unruly child? Exactly. Clearly it didn't look like that for him. But yeah. But what if he'd been like, none of my business. Which I think a lot of people are that way. I do too. I'm not that way. I think everything is my business.

Yeah. The police did more interviews with this guy and tried to get like enough of a description to put together a sketch. But there really wasn't enough to go on. Yeah. There really wasn't enough to go on. He believed that the man was white or Hispanic and that the truck was black or really dark blue, possibly. That was about it. He said the man was not very tall or not very big, but he moved really fast. And that was it.

Police believed that this was a stranger abduction yeah this um which is very rare around 750 000 american children are reported missing every year the vast majority of those are runaways or family abductions. Only about 100 stranger abductions are reported each year. Wow. Yeah. So super small percentage, but they're the most troubling, obviously. Typically in stranger abductions, nine out of 10 victims are female, half are sexually assaulted, and three out of four are killed within three hours of being abducted. So in a case of a stranger abduction, every minute following the abduction is crucial. Yeah. Because there is a very limited window if there's any hope of finding that child and finding it alive.

The truck that was driven by Amber Hagerman's abductor had been seen earlier that day outside a laundromat, which was just near the Winn-Dixie. So there were a few witnesses who came forward and said that they had seen a truck matching that description outside the laundromat that day. And police theorized that this was like completely a crime of opportunity, that this was not a planned thing, that this was somebody with obviously the worst of intentions who saw an opportunity and jumped on it. Yes, because how could he have known that she would be in that parking lot,

that she would be alone? Yes, there was no pattern. There was nothing. They said that the man who abducted her likely watched Amber and her brother ride into the parking lot together. And then he grabbed her like moments after her brother left her alone in the parking lot together. And then he grabbed her like moments after her brother left her alone in the parking lot. The eyewitness, the neighbor said he watched the man drive west out of the parking lot and then disappear. And that was it. That was all the evidence. It was front page news.

I mean, immediately in Texas and then the longer she was missing, you know, it grew. Attention grew to it. Police were hopeful that some other witness would step forward. Perhaps someone had seen wherever they had gone to, seen somebody fighting with a feisty girl in a car at some other location. Yeah. Or somebody seeing her pounding on a window or trying to get out of the car. But nobody came forward. Police in Texas reached out to the FBI and they formed a special task force to investigate. And the story grew from there. Coincidentally, a local news station had a bunch of footage

of Amber because they had been doing a story about Donna, Amber's mom and her struggle to get off of welfare. Oh, so they were doing like a public interest story about like how she was trying to better her life and all of this and so they had a bunch of footage of amber and so wow yeah and so i know right and so that started getting put on the news and they started calling amber arlington's child because there was just constant footage of her everywhere but this case as i mentioned in the beginning, does not have a happy ending. Yeah. No other witnesses came forward.

And four days after her abduction, a man walking his dog spotted Amber's naked body in a creek bed near an apartment complex in North Arlington. Her throat had been slit. Oh, my God. Investigators didn't stop trying to find her killer. Three weeks after the abduction, they released a psychological profile, hoping that that would spark somebody's memory or somebody would be like, oh, my gosh, this sounds exactly like blah, blah, blah, you know, something. The profile said that the man would be at least 25 and that he would live or work near the spot where the body was dumped. The authorities at that time let the public know that Amber was alive for two full days after she had been abducted, which likely meant that there was a crime scene somewhere

with a bunch of physical evidence, and it was likely somewhere in the Dallas area. Along with this profile, police theorized that something had caused this killer to snap, an argument with a loved one, some kind of domestic dispute, the loss of a job, and they said that the killer's personality or appearance would likely have changed as a result of that trauma. So something like these are just like clues for people to look for and people that they know, acquaintances, something like that. something like that. In one interview, an Arlington police spokesman said,

our hope is that someone out there will hear this and will think, gee, that sounds like someone I know. And plenty of people had that reaction. Like 5,000 leads came in after this psychological profile was released. Yeah. I mean, we're talking about the Dallas FortFort Worth area. It's a very large area. And police spent 18 months following up on each and every one of those leads. Wow. But none led to the killer. Every one of them was a dead end. By the summer of 1997, more than a million dollars had been spent on the Amber Hagerman investigation, and they were no closer to finding her murderer than they were on the day she'd been abducted. At that time, the task force was disbanded, and while the case remained open, there was not the active investigation going on any longer. This case remains unsolved today.

I didn't realize it was still unsolved. I didn't either. I had no idea. Oh, my God. Yeah. They still have not found who murdered Amber Hagerman. Her grandmother was interviewed for this article in Crime Library, and she said they don't really have much to go on. A few fibers they found on her body. That's all they tell us. They're still working on it, and they call us now and then.

They say they'll never give up but it's been more than 10 years and after 10 years you lose hope that they'll ever find him yeah but i still have a little bit of hope she said she prays that the killer will be caught in her lifetime oh my god yeah so by now it's what, 23 years since the abduction. How awful. Yeah. And how terrifying. Oh, yeah.

And how does that happen? I don't, gosh, I just, I mean, I know it happens. I know that there's all kinds of unsolved crimes, but it just makes me just hurt for that family who has no closure. None at all. So after this horrific murder, a Dallas man started kind of asking publicly a question that a lot of people had in their minds. When a child is abducted and each minute matters, why can't the police and the media get together to inform the public with the same urgency of, say, a weather warning about a tornado or a hurricane? Yeah.

And thus, the Amber Alert was born. So, this actually started specifically in the Dallas area. It started as the Dallas Amber Plan, and it began in July of 1997. Under the plan, the police provided broadcasters with timely information about abductions, including photos and descriptions, so word could be spread immediately to the public. So this went the AMBER plan, which AMBER is actually an acronym, but it is named after Amber Hagerman. It is an acronym for America's Missing Broadcast Emergency Response. So 16 months after this was first enacted in Dallas, it proved that it worked. There was an incident where this woman, Sandra Fallis, who was a babysitter who, unbeknownst to the people who had hired her for her services, had some kind of drug problem.

And she disappeared with an eight-week-old baby they yeah sent out an alert through the amber plan and this babysitter sandra phallus was apprehended within 90 minutes wow because they released the description of her car and her license plate and the child was returned unharmed wow yeah what was she gonna do with i have no idea wow okay yeah so with dallas proving that this was working and that it was fairly easy to do these broadcasts other cities started enacting it as well. So following the success of the Amber Plan in Dallas, other cities started enacting their own. Houston was the first to follow up. And they had theirs like fully functioning by like early 2000. And by 2002, Texas had actually instituted a statewide Amber Alert.

So by 2002, Texas has instituted a statewide Amber Alert. That same year, the US Justice Department began coordinating a program that would interlock all 50 states on some kind of program. So during this, there were different like resolutions and stuff that were proposed at like the federal level as far as like making this an actual law. And at each one of those, I don't know, what do you call it presentations or when they're presenting them to the House or whatever, the Haggermans would be present and they would argue or speak in front of Congress about getting that passed. And today, all 50 states have the Amber Alert System. And by 2013, it actually became where they send out them through the emergency alert system on your phones as well.

Right. Could we pause? Yeah. So I don't know if you've noticed this, but we've we've had a few in Kansas City, like the past few years. I am amazed at the number of people who will get on social media and complain about getting an Amber Alert. So it's really interesting that you say that because when they first launched the alerts on the phones, there was an Amber Alert that went out at like 4 a.m. Right. And people were so pissed about it. And it became a big concern that they were no longer going to be effective because people were going to turn the alerts off. I just.

Here's the deal with it is that the system is not perfect and there's been problems with it. And we'll talk about that. I'll get to that. OK, OK. isn't it better than, like, isn't it better to have a false report or something that didn't garner that level of alert than to be under-reporting or not have this system at all? Fuck yes, I think so. Well, and I understand being annoyed when you get woken up.

I am the biggest grouch. But if it's for an Amber Alert, because a child is in danger. I just don't get that at all. Yeah. But yeah, that was a big concern. One of the first alerts that went out after they passed being able to do those through the phone systems, through your cell phone systems. And I mean, it's wild when it goes off and like you're with multiple people and all of a sudden all the phones go off.

Oh yeah. If you've, I mean, it's, it's a big deal and it is, it's alarming. And, um, but yeah, one, like one of the first ones that went out, it's 2013 and it went out at 4am and like so many people complained about it and so many people disabled the alerts on their phone because of it. I just don't get that. No i just don't get that no i don't get that at all so you know what i would hope the type of person who complains about getting an amber alert is not going to be the type of person who would care enough to call the police

or act on it if they saw a vehicle matching that description or anything like that. Yeah. That's my hope. Yep. I agree. So in the beginning, each city and state kind of had their own decision making for what would warrant an Amber Alert. And it was very lax in the beginning. And that became an issue because when it was first, like in the early days of it, specifically like in Dallas alone, like in one month, there were like six alerts sent out. And most of them were for runaways. Yeah. And so the fear grew that people would be desensitized to it. Right.

And they would no longer pay attention to them. Sure. And so part of passing these things through the U.S. Department of Justice and making sure that there were guidelines for this was making sure that people take it seriously. And so now at a federal level in the United States, there are specific requirements that must be met in order to be able to activate an Amber Alert. So these are the four requirements that must be met. And this is specific to the U.S. So I'll talk about in a second some other countries that have adopted this, but specifically for the U.S., these are the requirements that must be met. Law enforcement must confirm that an abduction has taken place. It must be an abduction. The child must be at risk of serious injury or death. There must be a sufficient description of the child, the captor, and or a vehicle. Yeah, that makes sense.

To issue the alert. Yep. And the child must be a minor. Mm-hmm. And the child must be a minor. So all four of those requirements must be met to be able to activate the federal emergency alert system in the United States. Okay. So in the United States, all of the Amber Alerts are broadcast through the emergency alert system, which does all kinds of national emergencies. They do weather emergencies.

They do when we got those horrible texts from the president that one time. They do Amber Alert. I hope you're not speaking ill of Donald. OK. I can't. I physically cannot. Speak ill of him. Speak of him.

Those 22 women are all lying so as far as other countries that have adopted this um canada um started their system in 2002 um it started in alberta i don't know why i just said that way wow all the emphasis on the T. I was! I was super weird! Started in Alberta. Vancouver, also. And then from there, grew to British Columbia and Quebec.

And now it... the entire country has adopted the Amber Alert system. In 2018, they passed to where country has adopted the Amber Alert system. In 2018, they passed to where they can do the Amber Alerts on the phone systems like we do here in the United States. Why are you laughing? Because I said phone systems. It was something about the way you said it.

It was a very awkward way because it says smartphones in this article. And so. Well, yeah, you're not getting the landline call. No. The way you said it was like on the phone systems. So the thing that is different about the way the phone alerts work in Canada is that phone owners cannot opt out of the alerts. They can't control the volumes or anything. And they cannot choose the do not disturb setting on them either like they cannot turn them off wow yeah huh

i don't know how i feel about that um so people are people became so pissed about them at one point like when uh they passed that to like not be able to control it. Yeah. That people started calling 911 to complain. Okay. People are assholes. People are assholes. Yes.

Don't the Canadians know they're supposed to be super nice? I know. They're so nice. Don't call 911. Yeah. So in Canada, their alerts are broadcast through, hold on, what's their thing called? The Mark Alert? The Mark Alert. Their system is called Alert Ready.

Okay. Not the Emergency Alert System. Alert Ready. You know, I do think in situations like this where people can tend to be a little butthole-y, it helps to have a child's name attached. Why are you... I have something in my tooth right here. I was going to say, I'm so disturbed by seeing so much of your tongue right now. Trying to make a point about a small child. Other countries that have adopted the alerts are Mexico, Australia, much of Europe, including France, the Netherlands, United Kingdom, Ireland, the Slavic Republic, which I've never heard it called the Slavic Republic before.

They call it Amber Alert Slovakia there and they adopted it in April of 2015. Malaysia has implemented it. Ecuador has implemented it. They have changed their, theirs is named after another child. They changed it to Amelia Alert after an abducted girl, Amelia Benavides, who was abducted in December of 2017 in Ecuador. So as I mentioned earlier, there's problems with the system. Initially, in the beginning, they were overusing it a lot in the United States. So custodial arguments would be reported and an ambient alert would be issued like a specifically one case was where um a father came and took his two children from their grandmother's house from their maternal

grandmother's house right and she called the police and said that he had abducted them well it turned out he had custodial rights oh lord yeah and so they issued this amber alert and this Amber Alert. Come on, grandma. No. And when he was the person who was their legal guardian. Yeah. Other instances were the cases of runaways and things like that. And so that's why they decided to crack down. But even still, with that, there are times when Amber Alerts should have been issued and have not been. Right.

So specifically, there were a couple of issues that happened in the Cleveland area in the early days of the Amber Alert system. So like from 2000, like in the 2002 to 2004 time. Okay. So in April of 2004, a 14-year-old girl went missing in Cleveland. Police refused to issue an Amber Alert because there was no witness. So they couldn't say that she was abducted. They said she was a runaway. Her father begged the police to issue an Amber Alert saying that there was no way she had run away.

And they said, I'm sorry, it just doesn't meet the criteria. Though at that time, the criteria was not as specific as it is now. What was her race? She was Hispanic. Later, like a couple days later, two classmates came forward and said that they had seen this 14-year-old girl speaking with an older man on the day that she had disappeared. And then it came out that another girl had disappeared six months, like six months earlier. No, a year earlier, sorry. The previous spring. So it's April now.

The previous spring, another girl had disappeared like a couple blocks from where this girl had been seen. And had her parents asked for the Amber Alert to be used or no? No, it was believed that she was a runaway. She was older. I believe she was not a minor and so there was no chance of using the amber alert system it wouldn't be a year it would be a year after the second girl's disappearance that a sketch would be released of this is this what i'm thinking possible abductor but by that time the first girl had been missing for two years and the second girl had been missing for a year that girl whose dad begged them to get do an amber alert was gina de

jesus yeah the first girl who was missing was amanda berry. Those names probably sound very familiar to you. Oh, I've got goosebumps. Okay. So when I came across this in this article, so this article is like 10 years old. Uh-huh. I came across their names and I was like, holy shit. And then at the end of it, it says, they have not been found. Oh my gosh. But they have been found. They not been found. Oh, my gosh. But they have been found.

They have been found. So if you're wondering why those names sound so familiar to you. Amanda Berry, Michelle Knight and Gina DeJesus were abducted by Ariel Castro and held for years at his home in Cleveland, Ohio. It was May 6th, right? May 6th, 2013. I don't know the date. Yes, May 6th, 2013. The girls managed to escape his home after being held there.

They were there for years and years and years. Yeah. Amanda Berry, I believe, was kidnapped first, and she was kidnapped in 2002. And Gina DeJesus was kidnapped the following year. Gina DeJesus was kidnapped the following year. And Amanda Berry was impregnated by this man and had a six-year-old daughter at the time of her escape. Yeah. Yeah, I remember when that news story broke.

Because was it Amanda Berry who ran out of the house when he wasn't there? Uh-huh. So he was gone and she managed to, like, front door was like chained shut and she managed to like push out a bottom panel of it and escape like through, like get her hand out and wave down a neighbor. Yeah. Yeah. And they managed to escape while he was gone.

Yeah. I'm sorry. I said that wrong. Michelle Knight was the first to be abducted. She was abducted on August 23rd, 2002. Amanda Berry was the next to be abducted. She was abducted on August 23, 2002. Amanda Berry was the next to be abducted. She was abducted on April 21, 2003. And Gina DeJesus was the last to be abducted. And she was abducted on April 2, 2004. So it was more than 10 years from the first abduction that he held these girls.

10 years from the first abduction that he held these girls. So in your research about the Amber Alert and like when parents have asked for it and when it doesn't come through, was race a factor? Because that was my initial assumption. When you said that the dad begged for them to do the Amber Alert, I was like, she wasn't white. I don't know. I did not come across that. I did not come across that. Their thing was that they said that they believed she was a runaway and that no one had witnessed any sort of abduction. So it didn't qualify as an Amber Alert. Though at that time, the Amber Alert system was very new and they didn't have all the requirements that they have now for being able to activate it.

See, and then that just throws my spidey senses again because like how do you decide it's a runaway right how do you decide it looks like a runaway right yeah so that's where the article ended that these girls have never been found that is nuts yeah and i was like holy shit that's so crazy so i'm gonna go into that case just a little bit. So the three girls were kidnapped between 2002 and 2004. They were held until they managed to escape of their own, like, crazy braveness. I just can't even imagine. No, that's, yeah, that would be so terrifying.

Yeah. So it was May 6, 2013, when Amanda Berry managed to, like, kick out the bottom of the door and wave down a neighbor and said, there's three of us, or she also had her daughter. So there were four of us in there. She begged him to help them get out. He got them out and called police. They, until that moment, their families thought they were all dead. Of course they did.

Yeah. Of course they thought that. Yeah. Of course. they had been held in just horrible conditions inside that home for all that time. Ariel Castro was arrested. He was, I believe, arrested like when he came back home after wherever he had gone. That phone call, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. after wherever he had gone yeah yeah and ultimately he was arrested and he was charged with 977 charges it was oh yeah five 512 counts of kidnapping 446 counts of rape seven counts of gross sexual imposition six counts of felonious assault three counts of rape, 7 counts of gross sexual imposition, 6 counts of felonious assault, 3 counts of child endangerment, 2 counts of aggravated murder, and 1 of possession of criminal tools. Who did he murder? I believe I didn't do that much looking into his charges. Yeah, that's what I thought. It was he intentionally caused miscarriages. Oh, okay, gotcha.

Yeah, I was pretty sure that's what it was. Yeah, so he intentionally caused two miscarriages on different occasions. He was held on $8 million bail. And ultimately, he pled guilty to all of the charges and was sentenced to, I think it was, so he was, I don't know how many consecutive life sentences he got. He was he was sentenced to multiple life sentences plus one thousand years, all without the possibility of parole.

Of course, under this plea deal that he took when he pled guilty, he forfeited any right to appeal and he could not profit in any way due to his crimes. He also forfeited all of his assets, including his home, which- Well, it looked like a shithole anyway. And it was demolished afterwards. Yes. Yeah. So creeps like us wouldn't go and look at it. Yeah. At his sentencing, the judge, Judge Michael Russo said, you will not be getting out. Is that clear? And Ariel Castro responded, I do understand that, Your Honor.

At his sentencing, he tried to make excuses about how all of this started because he had an addiction to pornography and a sexual problem and all of that. But the judge cut him off. Yeah. I mean, there's lots of people who go crazy with porn. They don't abduct women and hold them for years. Yeah. He also addressed the court and spoke for like 20 minutes in which he said that he was ultimately a good person and he wasn't a monster.

That this was all because he was addicted to sex and pornography yeah and brock turner just liked fireball or whatever yeah he had practiced the art of masturbation from a young age the art of masturbation uh-huh yep and that most of the sex he had with the girls was consensual fuck right fuck right off is right yeah so he at times was kind of apologetic and then at times he was like he blamed the fbi for failing to catch him he also at one point blamed his victims for getting for willingly getting in the car with a stranger. Cause like Gina DeJesus willingly got in the car with him cause he offered

to take her home and she was friends with his daughter. Yeah. He was not a stranger. He wasn't a stranger to her. No. Yeah. Yeah. So she did.

She willingly got in his car because she thought that's my friend's dad and he will take me home. Right. Right. Yeah. So, yeah. got in his car because she thought that's my friend's dad and he will take me home right right yeah so yeah so he tried to post to shift blame to them to the fbi um and he said that it wasn't that bad because when he had sex with them he discovered they weren't virgins so you know first of all dipshit who doesn't understand women's anatomy you can't tell you can't fucking tell and second go right to hell or rather enjoy it right now spoiler yeah and he finished his statement by saying i hope they can find in their hearts to forgive me because we had a lot of harmony going on in that home.

Oh, my God. Can you imagine? No. Yeah. No, I can't. I believe that Amanda Knight was the only one who was present at his sentencing. I'm sorry, Michelle Knight. Amanda Berry and Gina DeJesus, I believe, did not attend.

Yeah. Those two wrote a book together, right? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Gotcha. So he was sentenced to eight million years in prison. Like one month into his life sentence, he was found hanging in his cell.

He was found hanging in his cell. Mm-hmm. He was dead. He had been in, like, he wasn't on, he wasn't on suicide watch, but he was on, because of his notoriety, he was on, like, an enhanced, like, checking schedule. Sure. Where they were supposed to check his cell, like, every 30 minutes. Mm-hmm. Similar to suicide watch, but it wasn't technically that. Right. The Ohio State University Wexner Medical Center in Columbus is where he was taken for his,

when they found him hanging, they attempted to perform CPR on him, but he was pronounced dead. An autopsy was done and his cause of death was ruled suicide by hanging. In October of 2013, so a month after that, the Ohio Department of Rehabilitation and Corrections, so the prison system that he was in, released a report that suggested that he may have accidentally died from autoerotic asphyxiation rather than suicide. Yeah. But the coroner who did the autopsy spoke out after that and said that she did not believe that to be the case, that she completely 100% stands by her ruling that he committed suicide

and this was not an accidental death. Okay. I mean. And this was not an accidental death. OK. I mean. So a independent consulting company was brought in to investigate this. Really? Yeah, because it's a problem. It became a problem for the prison system because prison systems are privately owned. Right.

And so it became like a controversy. And so an independent consulting company was brought in to investigate on it. And in December of 2013, they concluded that all available evidence pointed to suicide, including a shrine-like arrangement of family pictures and a Bible that were found in his cell.

In addition to an increasing tone of frustration in his prison journal about the reality of spending the rest of his life in prison. Oh, he didn't like being held captive? Where he was subject to constant harassment. Oh, well, that's too bad. Isn't that just terrible for him? Sad to see him go. Yeah. Uh-huh fucking monster yeah so that was a big tangent that i went on that was i felt like we got a two for one kind of a twofer well because there's no court stuff in the amber hagerman case really

because it's unsolved you don't think i mean it is but you know this is a fucking court podcast and we needed to have some court stuff in there so i took that detour to i i would have given you full credit for all the amber alert stuff thank you i appreciate that i appreciate that and i am grading your paper today so i wanted to put all that in there because i think it's so interesting that the father of gina de jJesus begged them to issue an Amber Alert. I know. And they said it didn't meet the requirements. Will he sue now?

No. Oh. I don't think so. Well. You know what, Brandi? I feel so bad because you gave us a twofer. I'm going to pull a case out of my ass right now. So just to finish up back on the Amber Alert us a twofer. I'm going to pull a case out of my ass right now. So just to

finish up back on the Amber Alert stuff a little bit. Amber Hagerman's family has never given up hope that her crime will be solved. They think that they have hope that someday they will get closure and that her murderer will be caught. They have also been instrumental in they were they went and spoke before Congress and were instrumental in getting the National Sex Offender Registry. Wow. Yes. Wonderful people. I mean, they really. Yeah. So also her dad became very close with Polly Kloss's dad, who was a little girl who was abducted in California, like a couple years before Amber. And so they just they really felt that this Amber Alert system has been a great legacy to their daughter. Yeah, they were able to help spark something that has saved has has saved lives yeah that is that is so amazing when people can take a terrible tragedy and turn it into something positive that's just incredible it is i think it's really i think it's really incredible um as for the alerts and how the system has developed and the requirements that are out there now, Amber's family says that they still feel like it's a great legacy to their daughter.

But that when they get the alerts on their phone, it's like for a moment, like seeing their daughter's name come across and seeing that somebody else is going through something terrible that it's hard for them. Oh, so they're not assholes. And they don't like they have not. They have not amazing. They have not shut off the alerts on their phone. Amazing. Great. So that is the origin of the Amber alert system. And to this day, the murder of Amber Hagerman is an open unsolved case i wonder if that guy is in prison for something else or dead yeah well because i feel like that's not your first thing that's not your first crime that's not your only crime no i totally agree probably not the only time you're gonna to do that to a child. Yep.

So. Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah. Okay. Are we ready to lighten things up? Yes, please. Let's do some questions. You want to do questions?

Okay. So we asked members of the Supreme Court to submit some more questions for us. And here we go. First question. You ready? Yes. Martel asks, what's it like to be so cool? Never been asked that.

We would have no idea. Very good. Okay. Oh, Greg asks, can I get an autograph? Greg. Yes, you can. Kristen, tell them how no I think you should tell how because it was your idea

that we do these cards and by the way Greg little do you know one is headed to you right now because you're a member of the Supreme Court Brandi tell them why so when you sign up for our Patreon and you become a member of the Supreme Court you get a sticker

a let's go to court sticker. They're so cool. I mean, we're kind of partial to them because they're our logo, but I think they're really cool. I think they look great. Anyway, when we send that to you, we send that to you inside of a thank you card that we have signed. Yes.

So yes, sign up for the Supreme Court. You'll get our autograph. Yeah. So it was your idea to do little cards, which I love. I thought it would be a cool little way to be able to send them. It actually was out of necessity because I was trying to figure out how we were going to send out those stickers. But anyway, yeah, the other night we sat and signed and signed and signed and signed. So, you know, if you become a member of the Supreme Court, you'll get a sticker and you'll get our signature. And you might get our blood, sweat and tears on your card.

Don't worry. There were no actual blood, sweat or tears involved. I don't know. I really worked up a sweat. Oh, Quincy asks, if there was a Let's Go to Court movie, who would you want to play you? I think we should do this we should change this i think we should pick for each other okay but you know i don't know actresses at all okay okay this is gonna sound like an insult at first but let me let me boy here we go gina davis but i knew would say Gina Davis. Gina Davis in a league of their own. Okay.

Because she looks just like you in that. Okay. She's young and hot and tall. So hot, so tall. Yes. So good at sports, just like myself. Just like you. I don't know who would play you.

Hmm. Hmm. Well, we'd have to have an actress with awesome eyes. Who do you think would play you? Who could play me? Who do you think would play you? Would you pick somebody other than young Geena Davis? No, I think young Geena Davis is a great one.

It is. It's really good. Thank you. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know who'd play me somebody hilarious yes yeah melissa mccarthy that's who i'd pick oh i wouldn't pick melissa mccarthy but like cute melissa mccarthy not tammy melissa no no i think you're off i think you're off base she's really cute in some stuff no i i'm not saying she's i'm not saying she's not cute i'm just saying i don't know how you'd pick that's

not who i would pick how about pamela anderson it's settled it's settled no i'm gonna have to think on that one all right we'll come back to it okay all right thanks i had yours ready well i'm so sorry i don't watch movies ever i know you're terrible well you only watch movies at movie night yeah and it's like stuff i've seen before yes yeah we like exclusively watch old comedies that we've already seen at movie night i like to be we've watched like one new movie no two new movies and one of them was terrible what was the one we watched that was terrible fucking i don't even remember what it's called it was so bad yeah i don't either the upside oh kill me it went on forever i think it was four hours long it was supposed to be a

comedy i didn't laugh. And if Brandy doesn't laugh at your comedy, it's time to close up shop. You know you done fucked up. Let's see. Ooh. Ookla asks, besides Facebook, what sites does Brandy use to internet stalk people? Oh, my gosh. So many.

There. Oh, gosh. What is the one called hold on true people search.com is one and you can get people's addresses people's former addresses people's neighbors addresses and then you can go google maps it um Also, I use county court pages. So like specifically in our area, Douglas County has a really good one. Johnson County has a really good one. If I can find like if other states have them, too, I just have to go find the counties that it happened in.

And then I have to research their court records to find their county pages. But that's a really good resource. Finding county court pages. Ashley graham if she were to get into acting i feel like she would be a good you thank you yeah that's a big compliment i appreciate it well no problem um let's see okay so like i said there are a lot of questions here but the one that has the most little hearts on it is by a woman named sherry pits sherry ray and it's a little sassy so here we go sherry i have to say have you ever considered asking for avocado on the side when you order

nachos as if we are not smart enough to think of that ourselves, Sherry. We've never considered it. Honestly, the thought has never crossed my mind. So in case you guys missed our last episode where, you know, Brandy talked extensively about the horrors of having a little avocado temporarily on her nachos. And the slow rate at which you work to get that avocado off. I disagree. Oh, my gosh.

It's snail's pace. I take an appetizer plate. I set it in front of myself. I grab myself a napkin. And by the time, like, my hand is reaching for a napkin, you're already, get the avocado off. Okay, here's the deal. We order the nachos. Yes. And then we sit there for a few minutes and wait for them to come. Why can't you do all that prep work while we're sitting there waiting for them to come? Prep work? Yeah, getting the appetizer plate,

getting the napkin, getting your silverware opened up. Well, I don't need to act like an eager beaver. Your silverware opened up. Well, I don't need to act like an eager beaver. Anyway, Sherry, that's an excellent suggestion. We will take it under consideration. Should we do one last one? Yeah. Kate asks, when will DP make another guest appearance? The triumphant return of DP.

Coming soon. Kate, I am so glad you asked about my sassy father. So I was at their house last weekend. I was going to say, you just offered. I know. And he's like, when am I going to be on the podcast again? You know, I'm ready, I'm ready, I'm ready. And I was like, cool.

When do you want to be on? And he goes, soon. And I was like, okay, how about this week? And yeah, yeah, yeah. Big pedal city. Oh my lord. I was like, okay, how about this week? And yeah, yeah, yeah. Backpedal City. Oh my Lord. He's never backpedaled so hard in his life.

It's as if he doesn't know. Like we do this every week. We do it every week. That's right. You say you want to be on soon. How about this Wednesday? That's right. Here's what he's aiming for, everyone.

What he wants is the sweet gig that Norman just had with us. Oh! Yeah. So he guest hosted with us once, realized it was a ton of work to research a case and all that. Then the last time we had Norman, where we just let him sit and react, But then the last time we had Norm on where we just let him sit and react, my dad is acting as if he has a YouTube show with 600,000 subscribers. And yeah, like, no, he he's not getting the star treatment. No. DP.

DP, you want to be on? You're going to have to do a case. Hate to break it to you. Yeah. OK. Hey, you know what it's time for? Supreme Court Inductions. All right. yeah okay hey you know what it's time for supreme court inductions all right so we did a new round of uh getting people's info and this time we asked for their zodiac sign so we will be inducting people

and then telling their I thought you were going to fill in there, Kristen. I was. I was trying to think of something funny to say. Good lord. How about you take names this time and I take zodiac signs. Okay, okay, fine. Okay. And

now inducting these members into the Supreme Court. Silence your phones. No air horns. I thought you were going to say flash photography. Also, no flash. Don't take a picture of you listening to this podcast.

Please, it's rude rude please don't do it martel libra sarah martin aquarius sarah dorrance torres as fuck dominic del werico Delwerico Gemini Kitty Lynn Taurus Andrew Lippins Cancer And now Introducing Rachel Lippins

They got married like Like five minutes ago She's fresh Lippins She's just been lippins. Sounds terrible. And she's a Libra. Dawn Roberts. Cancer.

At least that's what my wife calls me. Andrea Gonzalez. Virgo. Welcome, esteemed members of the Supreme Court. You know what we need? What do we need? We need a new goal. We have surpassed our 300 goal.

I'm doing jazz fingers. She's doing jazz hands. Okay, spirit fingers, jazz hands. Spirit fingers, jazz hands. Okay, spirit fingers, jazz hands. Spirit fingers, jazz hands. Your choreography is amazing. Thank you. It looks like you. No, you know what this is?

Huh? This is Kristen drying her hands after she goes to the bathroom. Okay, you guys. For years, Norman has been annoyed with me. I guess I dry my hands improperly I didn't think I did I wash my hands and I just kind of pat them onto the hand towel

I'm not concerned about getting every little drop of water off so frequently he will shout why are your hands wet? and I will say I just used the bathroom and he's horrified every time.

So this time you were over. Yeah. What prompted this? I guess they came out. You came out of the bathroom. And I thought you would be on my side. So I was like, no, feel my hand. And you were like.

You came out of the bathroom. And Norm was like, hey, Brainy, let me ask you a question. Do you dry your hands after you wash them? And I was like, of course I dry my hands after i wash them and he's like okay and you're like okay calm down i dry my hands too here brandy feel how dry my hands are and they were fucking wet okay they weren't wet they were wet they were damp they were past damp maybe not quite to wet somewhere in between between. Then, like a detective, Norman examined the evidence, the trail of

drip spots across the kitchen to the bathroom. And you were so pissed that I was on Norm's side. Well, you two are often on the same side. That's correct. I was hoping you would be on my side. But fine. Anyway, the point is

we thanks to you lovely people, we now have more than 300 ratings and reviews on Apple Podcasts. That is correct. We are so thrilled. Now we've got to get a whole new goal. What's it going to be, Brandi? What's it going to be, boy? Yes or no? I'm going to love you forever.

That was obscure. That was obscure. I don't know if anybody will get that one. Nope. Nope. I don't know. $350? $1 million or bust? $1 million. Yeah, $1 million. You want to go shoot for the moon? Go. $350? $1 million or bust?

$1 million. Yeah, $1 million. You want to go, like, shoot for the moon? Go for $400? Let's go for $400. $400. Enough of this, you know. Baby steps.

We're going, as Kristen would say, balls to the wall. $400. I do say that a lot. You do say that a lot. For someone without balls, I mention them a lot. All right. Hey, three balls, one bag. No rules them a lot. All right. So three balls, one bag. No rules.

No rules. All right. So we're going balls to the wall here. We're going 400 ratings on iTunes. Please head on over there. Leave us a rating. Leave us a review. Find us on social media.

We're on Facebook. We're on Twitter. We're on Instagram. We're on Reddit. We're on YouTube. And once you've done all that, head on over to our Patreon, patreon.com slash LGTC podcast, join up at the district appellate or Supreme Court levels. And then you know, if you're not too exhausted from all of that, then be sure to join us next

week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you

to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from Deadline.com, Entertainment Weekly, and the court documents. And I got my info from Deadline.com, Entertainment Weekly, and the court documents. And I got my info from the Crime Library, CBS News, and Wikipedia. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.