Let's Go To Court! - 81: The Kidnapping Of Edward Cudahy & A Baker Who Refused To Make A Cake

Episode Date: August 7, 2019

Brandi starts us off with the old timey-est kidnapping of them all! It was the winter of 1900 in Omaha, Nebraska, and 16-year-old Edward Cudahy was walking home from a neighbor’s house. Two men pulled up beside him and lured him into their carriage. They’d chosen their target wisely. Edward’s father owned Cudahy Packing Company. He was a millionaire. He had more than enough money to pay their ransom. But would he? Then Kristin tells us about a cake maker who didn’t want to make a cake. It was 2012, and Charlie Craig and David Mullins were in love. In fact, they were so in love that they decided to get married. That was a little tricky, though. At the time, Colorado prohibited same-sex marriage. But Charlie and David weren’t going to let legalized homophobia stop them. They planned to get married in Massachusetts and have a reception back in their home state. So they went to Masterpiece Cakeshop to order a wedding cake. There was just one problem. The owner of the bakery, Jack Phillips, refused to make cakes for same-sex couples. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “In baker’s case, neither side has much reason to rejoice,” by Jennifer Rubin for the Washington Post “Colorado judge orders Christian baker to bake gay wedding cake. Will he say no?” by Patrik Jonsson for the Christian Science Monitor “Colorado cake maker asks Supreme Court to provide a religious liberty right to refuse gay couple,” by David Savage for the Los Angeles Times “Supreme Court to take case on baker who refused to sell wedding cake to gay couple,” by Robert Barnes for the Washington Post “Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission,” Wikipedia In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “The Bold Cudahy Kidnapping” by David Krajicek, Crime Library “Kidnapping Edward Cudahy Jr.” NorthOmahaHistory.com “New Life For The Strangest Of Legends” by Micah Mertes, Omaha World-Herald 

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts! I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court! On this episode, I'll talk about a cake maker who didn't want to make a cake. And I'll be talking about an old-timey kidnapping. Yay!

Oh, I'm taking it back to my roots! I shouldn't say I love kidnappings, because I don't. But the story, I'm taking it back to my roots. I shouldn't say I love kidnappings, because I don't. But the story, I'm always intrigued. This is the old-timiest kidnapping that I have covered. Hmm. Hmm. Okay, I'm worried that our mics are... Okay, pull your mic closer to you, would you?

I'm afraid we're too close together. Would you like me to put it inside of my body? It's very close to me. We've had a number of reviews that say that that's exactly what's happening on this podcast. I was going to say, nobody has complained that the mic is too far from me, Krista. No, I'm worried that our mics, you know, we're just sitting a little closer together than usual. Yeah, we've got like a new arrangement here. Yeah, we sure do.

Quit caressing this table. This table has been in Norman's family for many years. You know what people should do? Should they join our Patreon? They totally should. You know why? Because it's super cool and only super cool people are invited. That's right.

The bouncer at the Patreon club is like, do you have $5? And if not, you have to walk away. That's right. If you don't have $5, you can't get in. If you have $7, you get into the Supreme Court. And the bouncer says that as he lets you in the door. No, the reason I bring this up is because we just recently released our bonus episode.

Bonus episode numero dos. That's number two for our non-bilinguals out there. In that episode, I covered the case. I don't know if anyone's going to remember. Homolingos? What did I say?

No, would that be someone who speaks only one language a homolingo i don't think so wouldn't it be monolingo i was just saying like bisexual oh okay great i don't know anyway what were you saying it was way more important than what i was saying what i was trying to say i'm trying to earn us money here brandy i was wondering about don't you don't know if you've noticed but we've not been sponsored yet can't imagine why i can't imagine why we're throwing things around like homo like so i covered a case of body shaming which i don't know if anyone's gonna even remember this but you

and i both remembered it was the time a couple years ago when a former playboy model body shamed this woman in the gym took a freaking picture of this 70 year old woman in the gym and then posted it to snapchat for all to see making fun so that was a fascinating case and brandy what exactly did you cover covered a disappearance of a 17 year old girl brandy always bringing the laughs as you the case was crazy though because the perpetrator was a giant asshole who thought he was a teenage boy. No, no. Brandy. It was all her idea. Yeah. You know, guys, it's like Brandy didn't even listen to the murderer's side of the story.

Anyway, if you sign up for the Patreon today, you get that bonus episode plus our previous bonus episode right away. You get to just listen to all kinds of things and, you know, join the Discord, have some fun. If you join at the Supreme Court level, you get a sticker and a thank you note.

One of my clients asked if he joins the Patreon if I will give him a discount on his haircut. What? So, yes, your sticker. Should you join the Patreon, please present your sticker at my salon for 10% off any service. Brandi, I think you're ripping yourself off there. I'm not giving anyone 10% off of anything over here. Anyway, let's talk about some kidnapping. Oh, great.

As kidnappings go, this is a little on the lighthearted side, so that's good. Well, good, because that one case you did with Marion, what's her name? Oh, yeah. The eyeballs. Yes, yeah. That was horrible. good side so that's good because that one case you did with marion what's her name oh yeah yes i yeah that was horrible but it was old-timey which somehow lessens it does somehow i don't know why it still happened but okay so i've stumbled across this case and like was like oh that's super interesting but i could only find like bits and pieces here and there because it's very old timey. We're talking 1900. Oh.

So you know how difficult it is to find stuff. I do. On, you love the old timeys. I do. Okay. I'm ready. Okay. So I had stumbled across this case and I was trying to, you know, piece it together from

little articles and stuff. Right. And I just was having trouble finding enough to make an episode about it and then wouldn't you know my buddy david kradzic has a fucking amazing article about this case i feel like you really need to reach out to him to reach out to david kradzic in real life and at least send him a sticker something or say hey come in for a haircut i'll give you 15 whoa so that just made me think of the thing your dad always does oh god what he's like so uh how much of that haircut do you get to keep how much of it goes

in your pocket say someone comes in pays 20 bucks for a haircut how much of that do you get to keep how much of it goes in your pocket say someone comes in pays 20 bucks for a haircut how much of that do you keep it oh my god you guys so i have your mom sheree was horrified yes as anyone should be horrible and i was like daryl you're asking me how much money i make right now and here's the craziest part he literally thinks that no he is not he really didn't he thinks he has found a way to dance around that topic because he's probably been told a million times by my mom you can't just ask people how much they make what is the square footage of their home um tell me exactly what you've got in the bank so that was his clever way i was like daryl you asking me how much money no no i'm just i'm simply asking you know

somebody gives you that 20 bill for their haircut how much of it are you keeping god anyway back to the kidnapping so did you just need to remind me of my father i just loved it i just love that do you just love to see the looks on my face and my mom's yes yeah okay so shout out to my boy david kradicek um i'm gonna hunt him down oh that sounds bad i'm gonna track him down and reach out to him i think it's only fair at this point because he and I are basically best friends. And he doesn't know it. Okay. It was December 18th, 1900.

Eddie Cudahy had stepped out of his family's mansion in Omaha, Nebraska. They live in this area of Omaha that's very upscale, very well to do. And it was after dark and he was just running out for a second to go to a neighbor's house to run a quick errand. He brought his dog with him, a collie, and he went three doors down to the home of Dr. Fred Rustin. He went inside and handed over a bundle of books and magazines that the Cudahy family had borrowed. He leaves to go home. Eddie is a 16-year-old boy from this well-to-do family. He's not far from home. He doesn't really think much about his surroundings as he leaves the neighbor's house to head home for the evening. So he didn't notice that kind of lurking behind him on the street was this kind of like ramshackle horse and buggy.

Okay. Slowly following behind him as he was working towards home. And that two men were sitting in that horse and buggy and they were watching Eddie very closely through a spyglass. A spyglass? A spyglass. Like binoculars? Oh, no. Like a.

You know what? I've only seen those in cartoons and they've only been used on ships oh yeah it is that's basically what it is yes okay yeah you're like you know kind of yeah you collapse it down you can telescope it out daffy duck pulls that out and then he's got a black circle under his eye yes okay i'm with you so these two men are watching eddie as he's um as he they've been watching him the whole time from the time he left his house while he was in the neighbor's house now that he's out of the house they're just waiting for the right moment and finally they feel like the moment has arrived they pull the buggy pulls up next to him and the driver a man in his 30s, jumped out and he stopped Eddie. And he said, we've got you, Eddie McGee.

And Eddie's like, what? I'm not Eddie McGee. I'm Eddie Cudahy. And the man stops him and he says, I am the sheriff of Sarpy County and I arrest you. You stole $500 from your aunt and you've just escaped from reform school. I am the sheriff of Sarpy County and I arrest you. You stole $500 from your aunt and you've just escaped from reform school. I'm taking you in. And Eddie is so confused and he's protesting and he's like,

he points towards his family's mansion, which is this beautiful like 22 room mansion. Tell me. Oh my God. I don't have an address. It doesn't exist anymore but if you look up just google cudahy mansion and it okay spell cudahy again c-u-d-a-h-y cudahy mansion omaha it's beautiful okay okay oh look at, are you seeing what's called the peaks? Yes. Yes.

Well, and it's interesting to me to see. I don't know. It's cool to me to see these old-timey places with kind of young trees. Because you just never think of a place that grand having young trees around. It just shows how new the place is. Yeah. Wow. So he's like,die's super confused he points to his house and he's like i'm not eddie mcgee i i live here i'm eddie cut a he um this this is where

my family is like that's my house and the man is like that game's not gonna work on me young man i know who you are and he said um i know you are. But if you'd like to prove to me that I've misidentified you. Get in my creepy. No, go right ahead. Otherwise, I'm taking you under arrest. And so Eddie is 16. Yeah. Doesn't really know how to prove that he's who he says he is. And so he gets in the buggy with this man. Oh, my gosh. And so he gets in the buggy and he notices as he does that the second man who was who has been sitting in the buggy and he notices as he does that the second man who was sit who has been sitting in the buggy the whole time throws something out like a large stick into the yard just as they're driving off and like they he throws something out into the

cut of he yard and then he like whips the horses into a trot and they take off suddenly it like clicks in eddie's mind what's going on he's just been kidnapped yep and they threw a stick with a ransom note attached into the yard yes so he said he this like clicks in his brain and he's like, I know what you fellows want. You want some of my dad's money. That's what he says to these two kidnappers. So back at the Cudahy mansion, Eddie's dog shows back up at home and the servants are like, well, that's super weird. Where's Eddie? He must have gotten

tied up at the neighbor's house no big deal they don't really think much of it there's no they let the dog in like they go about their business it wasn't until eddie's dad um edward senior returned home from like a dinner party at 10 30 that he realized something was amiss eddie still hadn't come home where was he and so edward senior called the police and two police officers on bicycles which it's 1900 so they're like those you know the giant wheel and then like the tiny wheel and back right no what's a 1900 bicycle look like i mean i guess you're right but it's it's amazing that they, I mean, how long did it take them to figure out, hey, we can make two wheels the same size? Yeah. Well, I don't know.

Look, when you Google it, there's both kinds. There's the big wheeled and the two wheeled. Well, I don't know what to believe. I don't either. When did, hold on. Let's pause while I read about the history of a bicycle i don't know i'm just picturing two police officers on a bicycle with one giant wheel and one tiny wheel on the back you know just pulling up to the cut of he mansion if you want to picture

it otherwise you go right ahead kristen wow question my knowledge of 1900s they so two police officers come over and they you know make a little report and they're like well it's about it's 1900 this is about all we can do and so they the family sits and waits and they hear nothing eddie doesn't show up it's they wait all through the night without a word and then like the dawn edition of the omaha newspapers the next day come out like with a special edition an extra they call it an extra edition yeah um about the disappearance of eddie cuttahee the cuttahees were like pillars of the city. Edward Cudahy Sr. and his brothers were iconic American success stories, which is interesting because I've never fucking heard of them. No. But Edward Sr. was born in Milwaukee in 1860. He was the youngest of five sons. They

were Irish immigrants who had settled in Milwaukee. I'm sorry, I just burped. Great, I love it. Yeah. We did just have a delicious lunch. It was amazing. That place was so cool. Norman forced us out of our comfort zone. We went to this cool new place that was so fancy inside.

We sat on this beautiful blue leather Chesterfield. It was gorgeous. Yes. And delicious food. And I had a Caesar salad. You had Amish chicken, which just looked like chicken. I don't know why it's called Amish chicken. Well, you just had a Caesar salad, which looked like a Caesar salad.

Yeah, but they didn't call it an Amish Caesar salad. They called it a Pentecostal Caesar salad. Anyway. So. I just have to read you exactly what this says from this article by my boy david okay some people are born to certain professions lawyers doctors teachers or laborers the boys were born to be meat packers what does that mean what the hell does that mean meatpackers. The Cudahy boys were meatpackers from the day they were born and they wanted to

start a slaughterhouse dynasty. They were determined to be the standard oil of beef. Okay. And so at 13, Edward went to work for a packaging company, Plankington Packaging Company, which was like the largest meatpacking firm in Milwaukee. And his older brothers already worked there. They were all kind of trying to learn the trade. And each brother learned like a different aspect of the meatpacking industry. And when the end, like, so at this time was kind of the industrial revolution when things were changing. Railroads became a big thing. And suddenly that meant that the food industry really changed because it allowed for the

shipment of perishables, which is something that really hadn't happened before. Yeah. And so the Cudahys figured out, like they were smart guys. They figured out that it would be more economical to set up a meatpacking facility near a farm. So they could get the animals in very quickly and then send it out. And so they could get the animals in very quickly and then send it out. And so they started up, they had this idea to start up their own company. And so they moved in like in the 1880s to Omaha. At this time, Omaha had kind of become like this, like had this like thriving livestock business. And so the Cudahys came in and started their own meat packing

firm in Omaha. And they were able to package meat and distribute meat like up to like a 250 mile radius. So they went all the way from Kansas to Iowa to Missouri to Minnesota to South Dakota. And they would either, you know, they people they would process people's animals for them, or they would purchase livestock and process it and send it out. Anyway, so this kind of Omaha kind of became a hub for meat packing. Yeah. There were five big companies there and the Cudahy brand was one of the biggest. I I've only heard of one of these meat packing companies which were said to be like and you're a meat packing expert i don't understand so these are the five so there's cuttie wilson swift moral and armor armor is the only one i've heard of i've never

heard of any of them you've never heard of any of them. You've never heard of like armor meats? Armor hot dogs? No. I have. I've heard of Nathan's hot dogs. Thank you. So it's like 1887 by this point. Things are going well. The big five meat packers worked pretty well together. They actually worked. They actually kind of phased out smaller, you know. Oh, good. A monopoly. I love that. Exactly. They took, it became a monopoly on the meat processing and meatpacking industry. And all of the owners of the five big meatpacking companies became millionaires many times over. Eddie, or Edward, sorry, Edward Sr. was one of those. And he did not conceal his wealth. He was not shy about it. He loved that he had worked his way up. He had earned it. Yeah. And so he built that giant mansion that sat on a hill above downtown Omaha. and everybody knew that that was the Cudahy home. It was no secret who lived there.

It was no secret who he was. He was very well known. And not everybody who knew that has good intentions, including these two men who had just picked up Eddie and kidnapped him and asked for ransom. You're saying these kidnappers did not have good intentions? That's exactly what I'm saying. My goodness, Brandi. Eddie and kidnapped him and asked for ransom. You're saying these kidnappers did not have good intentions? That's exactly what I'm saying. My goodness, Brandy.

Kristen. Thank you. So it's the next morning. The news of the kidnapping is out in the paper. Everybody hears about it. Edward closes the Cudahy plant for the day. And he has like, there's like 2,000 employees at his plant. So that's a big plant.

Yes. And he asks all of his employees to join in the search for his son. Wow. And out of respect for their competitor, the other meatpacking plants did the same thing. They all closed for the day and sent all of their employees out into the streets looking for eddie cudahy i am shocked right okay so i these are the moments when i hate to have a podcast because my jaw dropped yes i mean i've got goosebumps yes that is amazing. Yes. That is so beautiful. Yes. So 7,000 men and women are out just trampling through the streets of Omaha looking everywhere for Eddie Cudahy. And there's just no sign of him.

Oh. So here's the thing. Not everybody is a fan of the cut of he's sure and lots of people see that the big five the meatpacking companies just as you saw them as a monopoly who have put smaller companies out of work and so to a lot of people there wasn't a lot of sympathy about what was going on with the Cudahys. So the Omaha World Herald put out this little blurb about the crime. And I think that this kind of speaks a little bit to that mindset.

So this is what it said. Edward Cudahy Jr. is a young man with a pale and rather delicate face. While tall, his physique is by no means a strong one. He has the reputation of being very much a boy. He smokes a to contract debts that would open the eyes of the average poor boy wide as saucers. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Hey, everybody. A little shithead's been kidnapped. That's exactly right.

He's pale because he doesn't have to go outside and do actual work. And do actual labor, yes. And he's spoiled as can be. Good grief. Yeah. I can't believe they printed that. I know, right? It's going to get real interesting later.

Okay, okay. So it's 9 a.m. They still have not heard a word. There's been no sightings of Eddie, nothing. And the Cudahys receive a phone call. And it's a man. Wait, you haven't read the ransom note to me yet. Are you going to read it?

Hmm. Have the Cudahys found the ransom note yet, Kristen? Really? They had 7,000 workers going all over the place. No one. They're not searching their own fucking house. Well, but they didn't like scout the perimeter can you let me tell you what this phone call is okay fine it's 9 a.m they receive a phone call

and there's a man on the line and he says have you looked in the front yard for a letter it was me it was a relative of mine it was like hello and mr cudahy who answered the phone's like no and the man on the line says do so at once and you will find one and so mr cudahy sends one of his workers into the yard one of his like you know they call him his coachman so like that's like his valet or whatever yeah sends him intoends him into the yard. And he comes back with a big stick with a note attached to it. The note had been written in pencil on kind of like brown, like parcel wrapping. Right. So like that brown like craft paper.

Right. And it said. Okay. Are you going to give me all this attitude just because I interrupted you? Yes. As I was about to tell you what the fucking ransom note said. Brandy. Brandy. Okay. I need the audience to weigh in. How often do you interrupt me in a story? All the time. Yes.

Constantly. I never don't interrupt you. This is what the ransom note said, Kristen. Are you ready? Are you ready? Dang it, I was gonna wait for you to start talking and then interrupt you, but you stopped too long. Mr. Cudahy.

Huh? We have kidnapped your child and demand $25,000. Oh, that seems kind of steep in 1900. Adjusted for inflation. Yes. $762,000. Wow. Yeah.

Wow. So, and demand $25,000 for his safe return. If you give us the money, he will return as safe as when you last saw him. But if you refuse, we will put acid in his eyes and blind him. Good grief. Okay. Okay.

Get the money all in gold, five, ten, and twenty dollar pieces. Get in your buggy alone on the night of December 19th at seven o'clock p.m. Follow the paved road toward Fremont. When you come to a lantern by the side of the road,

place the money by the lantern and immediately turn your horse around and return home mr cutahee turns this note over to the police immediately and um the chief of detectives henry savage is able to trace the call somehow i have no idea how that's 1900 well is it like five people there's probably right that's probably right yeah not very many people have phones yeah and so they figure out that the call to the cuttie home had been placed at this stable in town okay and so they the police rushed there but the caller is already gone um the people who worked there were able to give kind of a description of the man, but said that he had he had rented a pony and ridden off. Wow. Immediately after getting off the phone. Yes.

So the police chief, John Donahue, told the Cudahys, you can absolutely not pay this ransom. And they're like, what about the acid? absolutely not pay this ransom. And they're like, what about the acid? Well, so they're like, no, no, no, we have to pay the ransom because there's a whole section in the note that talks about this. So in the ransom note, the kidnapper referred to what was at this time, the most famous kidnapping case in American history, which I've never heard of. Then you have to cover it next week. Come on. So it's the kidnapping of Charlie Ross, who was four years old and kidnapped from Philadelphia in July of 1874.

Whoever kidnapped him was a man who had used candy to get the boy into his buggy. And then the boy's father had put, who was like, you know, a. Sure. Someone wealthy. Wealthy store owner. Right. Had put in a newspaper ad offering a $300 reward for the return of his son. Right.

After that, he had received a letter, which led to like a string of like 23 letters. Like from this person who had kidnapped him. In the end, the person demanded $20,000 in exchange for the safe return of Charlie. The police told Mr. Ross not to pay the ransom and not to continue communicating with the kidnapper. But this, as I mentioned mentioned dragged on for months he communicated by placing ads the kidnapper would then send a letter back ultimately he decided he was going to go against the police's advice and he paid the ransom and he never saw he never saw his son again oh he was never found and in this note it said mr ross regretted for the rest of his life that he took the advice of the police. Ross died of a broken heart. Sorry that he had allowed the detectives

to dictate to him. Mr. Cudahy, you are up against it and there's only one way out. Give up the coin. Money we want and money we will get. If you don't give it up, you can lead your boy blind the rest of your days. Oh. Yeah. And so Mr. Cudahy's like, fuck, I'm giving them the money. Sure. Sure. Yeah. I'm not going to mess around. I'm giving you the money. So he calls Omaha National Bank and he made arrangements to get the money put together and to send one of his employees to pick up the gold coins that afternoon. So the bank's putting together the money and it's like 100 pounds worth of gold coins. And so they can't find a bag that will hold it.

And so they have to send somebody to the store to buy a suitcase that it'll all sit in. And so they charged Mr. Cudahy $12 for the suitcase to hold the ransom. So as instructed, that night, Edward Cudahy got in his carriage at 7 p.m. and started off on the road, just as I said. He took along his head cattle buyer, Patty McGrath, and told the police they were not welcome. So they went headed down this road that they were instructed to in the ransom note.

They went one mile, then two miles, then three miles, and stopped several times thinking they must have missed where the lantern was and that they passed it. But they continued for another, it was ultimately like seven miles down this road before they got to the lantern. They pulled over beside the lantern. Patty McGrath jumped out and checked for, like there was, the note said that there would be like some ribbon or something signifying that this is where they were supposed to.

So he got out. He found the ribbon. They left the twenty five thousand dollar suit like in the suitcase beside the lantern. And Edward Cudahy left a note on top of the suitcase. And on the note in the note, he said that he had complied with their request and demands to the very letter, and he expected them to keep their part of the bargain. And then, just as they had been instructed to do, they got back into their buggy, they turned it around, and they headed back home.

It was like 9.30 p.m. when they arrived back at the Cudahy home, and Edward Cudahy and Patty McGrath sat and waited. And then at 1 a.m., the kitchen door opened. Someone walked into the house. It was Eddie Cudahy Jr. You are kidding me. He was safe and sound, just as promised. What was the story?

So, we'll get there. Okay. So, the news that Eddie Cudahy had been returned and was... That's unbelievable. Unbelievable. And that he was completely unharmed was amazing. But people were pissed.

Why? At Edward Cudahy for paying the ransom. Yeah. I know I sound like a four-year-old, but why? So he became like this picture of this wealthy man who would just bend to whatever

the criminals wanted and that would encourage others to follow suit and start kidnapping the children of people for ransom okay well i understand that And that's correct. I mean, that's probably why police don't want you to comply with people like that. But at the same time, put yourself in that guy's shoes. Yeah, you're going to pay the fucking ransom. It's your child. You've got the money. Yes. Of course you're going to pay.

Of course you're going to pay. In that moment, are you going to be like, well, this is kind of a slippery slope here. And I'm not going to fork over the money. No, you're going to say, hmm, I have $25,000 in my bank account. Hmm, I'm missing my son. It's worth the gamble. Yes. Yeah.

So the San Francisco Examiner, which think about this. This happened in Omaha. Yeah. So San Francisco, very far away. Just like three miles away. No. Like Omaha's in the middle of the United States. San Francisco, clear over on the West Coast.

We're talking about 1900. The news traveled there very fast. And they put out this editorial and they said, this is a direct quote from the San Francisco Examiner. Mr. Cudahy has acted as a bad citizen because it will encourage others. I guess they hadn't heard of victim blaming back then. I guess they were busy inventing it for this case. That is insane to say. Yeah.

And the Omaha Bee, another newspaper in Omaha, they criticized Mr. Cudahy because he spoke in a nonchalant tone about paying the $25,000. They said it was as if he had just dropped a nickel down a seller grading. Okay. Here's what drives me crazy about that. If he had done the opposite, if he had said, Oh, my gosh, you know, I hate to pay, then someone would have criticized him. they would have said that's your child how can you even think about money at a time like this good grief people yep everybody shut up yeah retroactively yes retroactively all you people from 1900 you shut up

so haters in the building brandy oh yeah tell me about haters kristin i know and this time um eddie's back he's fine but people are like oh my gosh i can't believe you paid that money for that ransom now people are just gonna be kidnapping kids left and right how dare you which you're exactly right people would have said the complete opposite thing had he not paid the ransom and for the record they're right they're right they are right yeah when they are right when you pay off somebody yes it sends a signal to everyone else hey here's a way to make money but you don't get mad at no the victim of the crime good grief so eddie's back, but they still don't know who did this. They've caught no one. And so Edward Sr. puts out a $25,000 reward for the arrest of whoever did this. And then he also hires the Pinkerton Detective Agency to investigate the case because he has no faith in the police at this point.

Sure. Well, they're at this point. Sure. Well, they're pissed at him. Exactly. And so the Pinkerton Detective Agency is $1,000 a week. Holy shit! Yes, investigate this. So, I mean, that's a crazy amount of money. We're talking...

Beep boop, beep boop, beep boop. Like $30,000 a week he's paying to have them investigate the kidnapping of his son of his son because he just there had been some things that had happened at this point where he just did not believe that the omaha police could solve this um there was believed to be some corruption involved in it and also just plain incompetence so the people who the police officers who had investigated the scene where the ransom drop was they didn't find any evidence at all but a couple days later two boys were like playing in that area and they were poking around with a stick in the weeds and they found the lantern that had been used to mark the spot. Oh, come on.

Yeah. Yeah, no, you can't trust the police. The Pickerton detective agency sits down Eddie Cudahy, and they want to know everything that he could tell them about the crime. So he says that when he was taken, the kidnappers had blindfolded him and then had driven him around in circles for like an hour before they finally let him get out of the buggy. And then they helped him climb up a set of rickety stairs. He said that as he was like from the time that he got out of the buggy to the time he entered whatever building he was held in, that he caught like some whiffs of the packing district district and so he knew where he was he knew

he was in south omaha he could tell by the smell he was near the the meat packing district i bet that smelled terrible i bet it smelled terrible yes and so he he knew that he was in south omaha he said that he was held with his legs chained, but his hands were free. He was in an empty room with the exception of like one single chair and a gasoline stove. And through his blindfold, he could see that the windows were all covered in newspaper. He said that they had treated him pretty well. They'd fed him crackers and coffee and given him cigarettes and that there were two kidnappers. What you laughing i'm sorry i'm just thinking of a 16 year old what should we give him coffee and cigarettes yes a different time

definitely a different time he said um one kidnapper spoke with a very deep voice and had reeked of booze um and that the second kidnapper had disappeared for a very long time most likely when he was retrieving the ransom. When the second kidnapper had returned, Eddie was again led blindfolded down the stairs and to the buggy and driven around for an hour before being released about a mile from his home. And he walked home. Yeah. So this information was given to the police and to the Pinkerton Detective Agency. And the details of it were leaked to the press almost immediately. Okay. Yes.

And so every crime reporter in Omaha was trying to find that spot where he had been taken. And they found it before the police did. Oh, my God. Yes. Oh. The police were pissed. Well, how hard were they working, I wonder? Yeah.

I don't know. Yeah, but they looked terrible because these crime reporters found it. So I have an address, and I looked it up, and there is a house there, but I don't think that it's the... I'll be the judge of that. Give it to me. It's 3604 grover street omaha nebraska so in in the articles about that it's it says that it was little more than a shack um and there's like an actual house there now so i doubt it's the same house but it's showing me 3606 you said 3604 oh god to like kind of look behind yeah you gotta look between so many trees so many trees

maybe they grew those trees maybe they did creepers that's right keep creepers like us off the internet looking for it i know you want me to stop, but I can't stop, won't stop. Get it, get it. Why can't you look this up on, like, a real estate site, huh? I think there's not really a real house there. Yes, there is. I mean, there is. You can see a house, but it's not, I don't know. Well, then what the fudge am I looking at here, Brandy?

Okay, you know what? New tactic. Hang on. New tactic. What are you doing what? New tactic. Hang on. New tactic. What are you doing now? New tactic. Who does? Okay.

3606 was built in 1920. Okay. So, yeah. So, I bet the shack was torn down and a new house was built in its place in the 20s. Perhaps. Perhaps. Perhaps. We'll only know if we drive up there. It's not a far drive, Brady. It's really not.

Yeah. Okay, so the reporters track this location down. They find it. They learn that the house was owned by this guy who had rented it to a man who used the name James L. Connor, and he had rented it for a month, and he paid $6. I'm sorry. That's just amazing. Okay. So the police, as I mentioned, are super embarrassed, super pissed about this. They threatened to arrest all of the reporters who were at the place. I didn't know Donald Trump trump was alive right exactly so but eddie and edward

rushed to the place where all the reporters are talking about and eddie is says there's no question about it i am sure that this is the place wow okay so three days after kidnapping the police are scooped again this time by the world the omaha world herald when it reported that police were eyeing a possible suspect this guy pat crow who was a known criminal he had a record from chicago all the way to the ozarks very well known um and the cops had apparently gotten a tip from like a like a crime buddy of pat crowes um that he said that crow was bragging about how he had kidnapped a kid and how it had worked exactly how he wanted to and he was, this get rich quick scheme is perfect. Wow. Yeah. And so now they have an actual suspect and everybody knows the suspect, which is great. You know,

the police go and show sketches of Pat Crow to a bunch of witnesses to the crime. So while there's not any direct witnesses to the kidnapping, there's the people who were at this working at the stable when the call about the ransom note was made. There's neighbors at the rented house that had seen men coming and going from there. And each of them said, yes, for sure. Pat Crowe is the man that I saw. And he was not an easy person to forget. He was very well dressed and very put together for the criminal that he was. He, this is exactly how he's described. You know, my boy David loves to describe people. He loves a good description. Let's hear it.

This is his description. His personal carriage, dress, and style set him apart from the hunched, rumpled, and beleaguered masses trudging about Omaha. Crow was a physical specimen. He carried himself with erect posture. He was handsome, with a square jaw and fine features, except for a bent nose from a well-aimed punch or two. His dark eyes flashed and gleamed like that of a romantic criminal type. He wore fine clothes and favored well-trimmed but stylishly long hair. So this is what we know about Crow. He was born in 1869 in Vail, Iowa, which is about 60 miles northeast of Omaha.

He moved to Omaha at 16. He married Harriet Murphy when he was 18. They had three children who died in infancy. Oh, God. The 1900s. I'm telling you. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

And would you imagine that? They didn't make it through that. They drifted apart. Yeah, that'll do it. Yeah. Imagine the strain that puts on a relationship. Around that time, Crow decided that he was going to open a butcher shop in Omaha. Okay, here we go.

But the business went under. I wonder if he blamed anyone for that. When he was driven out of business by someone undercutting his prices would you believe if that person was edward cuttahee senior shocking but pat crow swallowed his pride and he went to work at one of the Cudahy meat shops. Meat shops? Yeah. Meat markets?

You mean butchers? Butchers, I guess. It says shop, but sure. Well, I trust David. I don't trust me. I don't trust me either. But he was fired after it was believed that he was stealing from the register. Felt a little entitled, did he?

And it was reported that when he was fired, Pat Crowe left that job muttering under his breath, I'll make you pay for this someday. Ooh. Ooh. Pat. Yes. So, down on his luck, he's got no job he decides he's gonna go to chicago and he's gonna open he's gonna go to chicago where like he can get some cheap butcher equipment and he's gonna open his own butcher shop in davenport iowa okay so he's got 750 to his name he's got all of that in his pocket. And he boards a train for Chicago. He stops over

at a whorehouse in Chicago. Decides to have some fun. It's called Sweet Annie's. Excellent. And he has a raucous night of fun. Sure. And then would you

believe it if he woke up the next morning with a hangover and no money so that's not very sweet no so he retaliated by uh robbing the place the next day he made off with seven thousand dollars in cash and jewels oh my god this is a guy you do not want to make angry exactly um but he was quickly arrested um okay yes he shot and wounded a chicago policeman during his arrest um he was charged tried convicted and sentenced to six years in joliet prison yes the guy the police officer didn't die oh okay i mean but still i feel like you think that's low? Seven, I mean, probably.

Seems pretty low. Yeah. Hmm. Okay. Yeah, I mean, in that time, they were probably hanging people for left and right for nothing, so... Well, right. Yeah. Okay, okay.

That's probably true. So, he's sentenced to six years in prison. But he writes this letter, some sob story, to John Thurston, who's a senator from Omaha. Oh, my God. And he swears that he's a reformed man. He'll never break a law again. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And somehow it makes an impact on this John Thurston. The governor of Illinois, who was Joseph Pfeiffer at the time, and asks him to show mercy on poor Pat Crow.

And he does. He pardons him after serving only 17 months. What? Yes. This is insane. Insane. Yeah. So. Iane. Yeah. So.

I cannot believe this. He's fully reformed, Kristen. Oh, yeah. Except he wasn't. He wasn't reformed at all. He gets out of prison and immediately commits several stick-ups in Denver, Kansas City, Philadelphia, and then finally was arrested for a train robbery in Missouri. He was convicted of that and spent three years in state prison. Wow.

Only three years. Only three years. This guy must have been charming as hell. Yeah. So he's so charming that the press starts to paint him as this kind of folk legend. Oh, my God. This is how the Omaha Examiner, which can we talk about? Omaha is not that big of a town.

How many fucking papers did they have? It was 1900. I know. It wasn't 2008. It was not. So the Omaha Daily News wrote this of crow they said he was one of the few really spectacular and truly named desperados of the day what they said he committed his deeds with a dash an abandoned and dared deviltry that marked the deeds of the picturesque old scoundrels of the What the fuck?

Yeah. Hey, that 16-year-old kid who got kidnapped is an asshole. Yes! But this guy... This guy is a legend! He's a desperado. That's right. That's exactly right.

Oh my god, This is so weird. Yes. So these stories are coming out about how this, he's an international man of mystery, basically. He's the Austin Powers of 1900. But no one can find him. He's disappeared off the face of the earth. The Pinkerton detectives can't find him. The police can't find him. He's disappeared off the face of the earth. The Pinkerton detectives can't find him. The police can't find him.

Not even the press, who've been able to track down everything in this story. They can't find him. By January of 1901, crow sightings were reported far and wide. People said that he was in Central America. He was on Nantucket Island. He was in South Africa.

But most likely none of this was true. It's believed that he never left the Omaha area, that he was just hiding out. Really? Yes. Okay, now that surprises me more than anything. Yeah. With all these people looking for him. Yeah.

Unless he charmed a bunch of them and they were just like, no, I have no idea where he could be. So one of the newspapers put this when nobody could track him down. They wrote, it's fairly well established who kidnapped Eddie Cudahy. But what we would like to know is who kidnapped Pat Crowe? God. Another one said, don't be too hard on the police. Occasionally, some of them catch someone. The shade.

The shade. Police were knocking on the door of everyone who had ever known Pat Crow. His ex-wife, or estranged wife, I think they were still married, his brother, all of his criminal cohorts. No one knew anything. Right. The police chief ordered up wanted posters by the thousands, and they were shipped across America. by the thousands and they were shipped across America. And this led to lots more reports of sightings, but still nothing.

No crow. By this time, like a couple more months had gone by. It's like the spring of 1901 and Omaha has gained this national notoriety that they don't want. Well, yeah. Yeah. And so the city council is like, we're going to put up $25,000 to match Mr. Cudahy's reward so that we've got a $50,000 reward. Surely that'll be enough to draw something out. Someone will come forward. Right.

But nothing. With $50, Someone will come forward. Right. But nothing. With $50,000 on the line. Yeah. And then somehow it got leaked that the police chief had asked a hypnotist to come in. Oh, come on. Come on, buddy. Yeah. Help him find Crow.

And so like, just, it wasn't going well. No kidding. It was not going well. When you bring in the hypnotist, it's a sign that things aren't great. So, they know who took Eddie. They just can't find him. But Nebraska politicians wanted to be ready when they did find him. So they could serve the justice.

So they start looking into the state law, and they're like, what are we going to charge them with? And what they found shocked me. Okay. Neither of the abduction statutes in Nebraska at this time could apply to the Cudahy case. What? One law required transportation of an abduction victim

across state lines, which didn't happen. The second defined kidnapping as the abduction of a child under the age of 10. Oh my lord. Technically, Pat Crowe hadn't broken the law. You are kidding me. It's not against the law to kidnap a 16-year-old kid in Nebraska in 1900. Great.

Yes. Well, OK, where was the moral outrage about that, right? So the legislators were like, holy shit, we have to change that. Yeah. rage about that right so the legislators were like holy shit we have to change that yeah so they quickly passed like several new kidnapping laws including one that provided that said if the kidnapping involved extortion of money so if they asked for ransom they would the kidnapper would receive life in prison nice okay there you go And then that same law also listed out that capital punishment could be involved if the kidnappers harmed the victim in any way. And then they presented another law that extended the definition of kidnapping to anyone under the age of 18. Okay.

So, but none of these laws are retroactive. Yeah. Yeah. But none of these laws are retroactive. At that same time, Kansas, Illinois, Missouri, and a few other states passed those same laws. Yeah. Wow. Unbelievable. So a ton of states. Yes. So, I mean, think about this, though.

Like, the big kidnapping that led to harsh punishment for the crime was the Lindbergh. And this is 25 years before that. Yeah. More than that. What year did that happen? I thought that was like the 20s, right? I thought it was like 1925 was my guess. Yeah.

No, mine too. Okay. So they're passing laws, but they're like, holy shit, there's a big problem here. Big old loophole in our legal system. Gotta sew that puppy up. Too bad for Eddie Cudahy. Not really going to be any justice for him. Well, you know, he was pale and rich.

Yes, and rich, so it doesn't matter. Finally, a break in the case comes. It's March of 1901. But hold on, hold on, hold on. Why are they even trying to find this guy if what he did is not illegal? What are they going to do to him when they find him? I think that they thought that they could charge him with robbery for the $25,000. Okay.

Eventually, that's what they're going to do. Okay, okay. So a break comes in March. This guy, James Callahan, who's kind of a well-known criminal, he was arrested for public drunkenness. He served a night in jail. And then when he got out, he paid his fine with a brand new shiny $20 gold piece. Love it. And they're like, oh, that's very familiar.

Looks like the cut of he ran some money and so they kind of follow him and he makes eight stops and he pays with eight gold pieces like of course he does you know goes from one tavern to the next yes paying with a nice shiny gold piece at each place. So they arrest him on March 21st, 1901, saying that he had with a warrant that said he unlawfully, feloniously and forcibly robbed Edward Cudahy of $25,000. So his trial, you know, it's 1901 at this point. So trials happen very quickly in this day and age. So he went on trial on April 23rd and it's 1901 at this point. So trials happen very quickly in this day and age. So he went on trial on April 23rd.

And it seemed like a pretty easy case. Edward Cudahy, or I'm sorry, Eddie Cudahy took the stand and identified Callahan as the kidnapper with the deep voice. He had never seen him, but he'd heard his voice. He was sure that it was him. Edward Sr. also took the stand and talked about how he had paid the ransom. A neighbor of the place where they had taken Eddie testified that she recognized Callahan as one of the men that she had seen coming and going from that house in the days before and after the kidnapping. But the defense called several alibi witnesses. The defense called several alibi witnesses to said that they had seen him playing cards at a saloon on Center Street, which was not near the kidnapping hideout on the night of the kidnapping.

Callahan's sister testified that he had spent the night at her house that night. And Callahan took the stand himself and he testified that he had been drinking that night, but he was certain that he hadn't been involved in any kidnapping. As for his pocket of gold coins, I'm not really sure where those came from. Oh, that's typical. Yeah. Yeah. Couldn't really account for them. I always have just pockets full of money.

Never know where the money comes from. So in their closing arguments, the defense, he had two attorneys charles hale holler charles holler and john mcfarland said that the defendant had not committed any robbery since mr cuttahee had given the money freely and did not expect it to be returned. So even if those gold coins came from the ransom, it wasn't robbery. He had left that money there. Wow. They said it didn't matter what that money was given for. It's not pertinent.

Since the kidnapping of a 16 year old isn't even illegal under Nebraska law. Wow. Wow. Yeah. So the judge was, like, angered by this closing argument. And he told the jury that they must convict Callahan of robbery if they believed that Cudahy had paid the kidnappers because they put him in fear about his son. So if the jury believed that Callahan had gotten the money from Mr. Cudahy, if it was the ransom money, even though it's not a crime on the books, they have to convict if they believe that.

The jury deliberated for like no time. And on April 28thth they announced their verdict not guilty not fucking guilty you're kidding me yeah so oh my gosh so this story is crazy so callahan gets up and he's like beaming and smiling. And he's like, he walks towards the jury box and he says, Your Honor, my attorneys aren't here right now, but I would like to say a word on my own behalf and thank the jurors. And the judge yells, sit down. These jurors don't deserve any thanks. Whoa. Yes.

And then the judge turned to the jury and he said he could not conceive of 12 intelligent men returning a verdict of this kind. Wow. He said that juries were to protect society and uphold laws, not make heroes of men who prey upon people and upon their property. Wow. Yeah. This story is unbelievable. Unbelievable.

Everything about it is unbelievable, including a judge saying that to the jury, although I agree with the judge completely. My God. So that judge, when he retired 35 years later, he was speaking to a reporter about his time as a judge. And he said, there was no legitimate reason for Callahan's acquittal. The man was proven guilty. I can only account for it on the ground that the jury was prejudiced against wealthy people as represented by the Cudahys.

Wow. Yeah. But Callahan was not released despite his acquittal. He was charged with seven counts of perjury. And he was held until his trial in November. But at that trial, he was acquitted again you're kidding nope acquitted on all counts so it's october of 1901 oh my god fucking callahan is one of the kidnappers he's been arrested he's been charged he's been acquitted right pat crow wherever he's at, is following this in the papers. And he does something so crazy.

He writes a letter to Edward Callahan and he offers to return the $21,000 of ransom that he has left if Cudahy will remove the reward for his arrest. Wait, what? Yes. Because apparently Pat Crowe saw this as like some kind of attack on him being an honorable criminal. Yes. Oh my. So he's like, I will give you back the money if you simply remove the award for my arrest move the reward for my arrest because i i hate to have that be smirching my good name my good

name as this folk legend hero yeah wow and and ed Edward writes back and he says, I would rather spend my last thousand dollars than compromise with you. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. But Pat Crowe did not give up. Of course he didn't. He contacted the police chief. Oh, God. And he offered to surrender if the $50,000 reward was dropped and if authorities would agree to set his bond at $500. Yeah. So he shows up to jail and then promptly leaves?

Right. That would be the idea? And so. What a brave criminal. The police chief goes and talks to the Cudahy's and basically gives them no option. He's like, you have to do this. I'm requiring you to do this. You must drop the reward.

And so they do. But this is a criminal. Yeah. He doesn't stick to his word. Another fucking five years go by. He never comes forward. Fast forward. It's the spring of 1905.

So I guess five years total have gone by. Okay. And Crow surfaces in Omaha. He's tired of living as a fugitive. He's anxious to begin a new life he's ready to face a jury wow and be tried for his crime uh-huh but uh what's he done he's hold on what's he being tried for this time well let's get there okay okay so he's he does an interview with a reporter about this he doesn't go to the police and tell them this he does an interview with a reporter so that's in the newspaper yeah what he

what was really true was that he'd run out of ransom money he'd blown through all of that money in four years. And then, so he gives, it's spring when he gives that. He talks to that reporter. The reporter agrees to hide his, you know, location or whatever for the interview. And then he disappears again until September 5th of 1905 when he's spotted by two officers just like walking down the street in Omaha. The police call headquarters and two detectives hurry there and a gunfight breaks out.

They call it the battle of Hickory Street. Crowe wounded one of the police officers and escaped. This guy is nuts. my god a month later he gets pulled over in montana yeah i guess not pulled over because it's 1906 he gets stopped i guess he's on foot okay he gets stopped by two patrol officers and they recognize him his face is all over the place. Sure, sure. They recognize him. They secure him in a set of handcuffs. And then they are able to extradite him back to Omaha. Finally, they have him in custody. But they still have to figure out what to charge him with.

Yeah. Because he hasn't committed a crime, according to Nebraska law. But they can charge him with, they've got him on a $50 robbery of a street car. And they've got him for the shooting of the officer in that street battle. But they already tried him for that. He already did his time. That was a different shootout. This is the shootout where they tried to arrest him in Omaha. Oh, okay. I, they already tried him for that. He already did his time. Different. That was a different shootout.

This is the shootout where they tried to arrest him in Omaha. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. Yes. All right. Yes.

He's been involved in multiple shootouts, Kristen. I'm having trouble with this guy. He's done a lot. And then finally, they're going to charge him with robbery for the Cudahy case.

That's as much as they can get him on. Robbery for the $25,000. So, they've already charged his cohort. Now it's four years later and they finally tracked down the ringleader, Pat Crowe. So they charge him with all of those.

He, of course, pleads not guilty. And his trial is set to begin in November of 1905. First, he is tried for the shooting of the police officer. That's the first thing they're going to charge him with. That's the first trial. I mean, I'm sorry. The defense said that Pat Crow was merely defending himself. The officer was not in uniform and he did not identify himself as a police officer and he had fired first is any of that true no idea okay there were about four days of testimony after which the jury deliberated for 80 minutes and acquitted him. Oh my God. Yeah.

But the judge ordered that Crow be held on $7,000 bail and that they would move forward with the robbery charges for the Cudahy kidnapping. Okay. Okay. That trial was set to begin in February of 1906. Public response to this was nuts. Okay. Like people were lining up every day to get into the gallery like they wanted to be a part of this. But Crow wasn't doing himself any favors.

He had written a letter while he was in custody that the prosecution was going to use against him. So the prosecutor knew that they believed that the reason that they had been having trouble convicting Callahan, the first man, and then hadn't convicted Crow on the first charge, was that because people didn't have sympathy for the Cudahys. Right. That's exactly right. Yes, because they were seen as having a monopoly on the industry. was that because people didn't have sympathy for the Cudahys. Right. That's exactly right. Yes, because they were seen as having a monopoly on the industry. And so the prosecutor had planned to get a jury that he thought would work in his favor. He wanted a white-collar jury because he feared that blue-collar workers would be predisposed against the Cudahy family. They would be prejudiced.

They would automatically side with Crow. And so that's what he went into this jury selection with a plan to do. And he failed miserably. The jury was made up of a packing house employee, a cook, a railroad delivery clerk, a sign painter, a shoe dealer, a butcher, a bank janitor, a house painter, a dry goods dealer, a poultry supplier, a shoe dealer a butcher a bank janitor a house painter a dry goods dealer a poultry supplier a carpenter and a driver well damn yes how do you mess up that we didn't get a single white color worker on that on that jury and by this time all almost five years have passed. Eddie Cudahy is not this scrawny kid that everybody would want to feel sorry for this kidnapping for. He's 21 years old.

He's over six feet tall. Like, he's this big dude. And the jury did not see him as a sympathetic figure at all. Sure. Sure. did not see him as a sympathetic figure at all. Sure. Sure.

The prosecution like tried to overkill this trial. Basically they called 96 witnesses. Oh my God. And then they read a letter that Crow had written while he was in, in jail. So he had written it to like this priest that he had known when he was a kid. And he asked the priest to help him because he believed that the Cudahys were like a good Catholic family. And he wanted the priest to contact them and ask them to remove the reward. This is when he was in the middle of talk, like trying to negotiate with the Cudahys

to get them to remove the reward. And so this is the letter he wrote to this priest. He said, I am guilty of the Cudahy affair. I am to blame for the whole thing. After it was over, I regretted my act and I offered to return $21,000 to Cudahy, but he refused to take it. but he refused to take it. So there's a letter that is presented as evidence in court of him admitting that he did it. It seemed like it was a slam dunk case. The Omaha World-Herald wrote, the case was overwhelming, irrefutable. There was no loophole for Crow.

When it was the defense's turn to put on their case, they didn't call a single witness. Instead, they told the judge that they looked forward to closing arguments. What? During their closing argument,

Crow's defense attorney led the jury on this crazy journey that touched on everything but the kidnapping. Uh-huh. He talked about the history of law, the Catholic Church, Martin Luther, religious reform, old glory, Abraham Lincoln, ethics. What? And, of course, the beef trust. What does that even mean?

does that even mean and then he used it was like he had written out his summation and then gone to a thesaurus and picked out words that nobody had any idea what they would mean he spoke over this jury's head in an attempt to make him sound very intelligent the words that he said i i don't even know what they are irrefragable it means indisputable. Sorry, I just spat right in the microphone. Anemidvert means to take note of. Chimerical, it means imaginary. These are words that he used in his summation to the jury. With the idea that maybe he could intimidate them? I don't think he could intimidate them.

I think that they, not intimidate them, but impress them and think think this guy's really got it together we listen to this guy for sure yeah okay yeah and he said he he played on the emotions of the jury and he said that edward cudahy's wealth gave him an unfair advantage over the poor farm boy pat crow uh-huh he didn't deny that crow was the kidnapper but he said that the defendant had committed an act of contrition in the letter with the priest he was sorry wasn't that enough no he wasn't sorry. He didn't say he was sorry at all. No. So everyone, the jury, the people in the gallery were listening to this summation like so intently. They were on the edges of their seats.

They were laughing. They were cheering. They were making so much noise and breaking out so frequently during it that the judge threatened to clear the courtroom wow yes in the end the defense attorney apologized for his lengthy summation oh yeah i'm sure he was real sorry yes about as sorry as pat was the chicago examiner wrote a piece on the summation and they called it the best speech in a criminal case ever made in Omaha. Okay. Well, I thought you were going to say ever.

No. They toned it down a bit. They did tone it down a bit. The jury deliberated for 17 hours. The prosecutor felt pretty good about that. They actually spent some time deliberating. And then they returned their verdict. Not guilty.

Of course. When the verdict was read, everyone in the gallery cheered. We're working conditions at this time. So bad. Oh, I'm sure. They must have been. That it was just like if any bad thing happened to a wealthy person, it was like, woohoo, fuck them. So when the gallery breaks out in cheers, the judge admonished them.

He said, I am greatly surprised that the acquittal of a notorious criminal in this courtroom should be received with applause. He then turned to the jury and said, this court is very much surprised that a jury would pass a verdict clearing such a notorious criminal. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Hmm. I guess it's all who we relate to. I mean, the judges, I assume it was different judges in these two cases. Yes, different judges. Judges are rich guys, right?

Yeah, absolutely. different judges in these two cases yes different judges judges are rich guys right yeah so they're like they're like getting a glimpse into what's gonna happen if someone kidnaps my kid yeah the police chief called this a travesty of justice and most viewed the decision not as an acquittal on Crow, but a statement on against men like Edward Cudahy, who had monopolized industries. That was something that was going on a lot at that time. And it was like what you said, like, oh, yeah, finally something bad happens to them. Yeah. The Omaha Daily News said it was nothing more than we could expect from the jury. The Omaha Daily News said it was nothing more than we could expect from the jury composed as it was largely of laboring men. Cut a heat in their minds is robbing the people in small amounts three times a day.

And Pat Crowe got back part of this money in one big chunk and he didn't hurt anybody at all. There's no dirt. There is no doubt that the jury thought it no worse to steal from one child than it is to starve many. Wow. Yeah. That's pretty powerful. The Washington Post took a different view on it. They said, Omaha is evidently a happy hunting ground for savages and malefactors. Wow.

actors wow crow had one more crime he was facing that uh trolley car robbery of 50 dollars um for that he had to be transferred to omaha which is just across the river or transferred to council bluffs which is just across the river into iowa and he arrived there as a hero people were waiting in the streets for him and cheering him on and again he was found not guilty incredible yeah isn't that nuts oh um he maintained his kind of folk legend status for a few more years and then he ended up dying in a flop house in harlem with no money what's a flop house like a hostel oh okay is that a is that a term everyone knows yeah i think so flop house yeah yeah that's what people know that um not before writing a lovely letter to Eddie Jr. when he heard that he was getting married. So in 1919, Edward Cudahy Jr. was married. And he received a telegram from Pat Crow that said,

No one could wish you greater happiness in the hands of your new kidnapper than I do. Here's hoping you will cherish no ill will over our former escapade and enjoy this one more. Signed, your old kidnapper. Fuck off. Yep. What an ass. Yeah. As for Eddie, he went on to be the head of the company.

He relocated it to Chicago and then he retired to Arizona in 1961 and died there in 1966. In the 1960s, the meatpacking industry changed a lot. Rural slaughterhouses, small farms were able to outprice the larger companies and all of the big five, with the exception of armor, went under. Wow. In 1967, the Cudahy slaughterhouse in Omaha was closed. And a year later, the Cudahy mansion was razed and apartments stand there now. And that's the story of the craziest old-timey kidnapping. That really is. Isn't that nuts? I loved that story.

Bizarre, right? It's totally bizarre. Again, the only thing I can think is that working conditions were so bad. They're like, finally something bad happens to these rich assholes. And, you know, not even really, like,

I mean, the kid did survive. He was unharmed, at least, you know, physically unharmed. Yeah. My God. That whole thing was unharmed at least you know yeah physically physically unharmed yeah my god yeah that whole thing was astounding yeah i don't know what to say okay let me grab some more water yes tell us about our bigot cake baker. No, Brandy.

Oh, I'm sorry. Is that not the case you're doing? I think the liberal media has gotten to your brain. Oh. Because if anyone's the victim here. It's her? It's the cake baker. I don't even know that it's a her.

It's a him. It's a him. No, okay. This is a famous cake case. Yeah. Are we ready? I'm ready. It was 2012.

Yeah. And Charlie Craig and David Mullins were in love. In fact, they were so in love that they decided to get married. It was a little tricky, though, because they lived in Colorado. It was a little tricky, though, because they lived in Colorado. And at the time, the Colorado state constitution prohibited gay marriage. Barf. Yeah.

But Charlie and David weren't going to let legalized homophobia stop them. They had a plan. They'd go to Massachusetts, where same-sex marriage was legal. They'd get married. Then they'd come back to Lakewood, Colorado to celebrate with friends and family. So they'd basically have like a, you know, a reception or whatever. Sounds great, right?

Absolutely. What could possibly go wrong? I don't know. Something with the cake? How dare you? So in July, Charlie and David were getting things ready for their reception, and they went into Masterpiece Cake Shop to order a wedding cake. Masterpiece? Masterpiece. What did I say? Did I say masterpiece?

No, you said masterpiece, I think, but it sounds like as if Master P, the rapper, opened a cake shop. Is that a rapper? Master P? Make him say, uh. You don't know that song? You're going to have to say more than that. That's all I know of it, Kristen. I got to look it up. Okay. Yeah, and his kid's somebody famous, too. Master P. Make him say.

Okay, that's it. He never gave a fuck about no hoes, Kristen. Okay, turn that off before we get copyright claimed on this. Come on, you gotta get to the refrain. You really don't know this song? No. Clearly, I'm the only one because it says here, as of 2019, Master P's net worth is roughly $200 million. Is that true? Well, I don't know that it's true.

It's from a site called Wealthy Gorilla. What did he make his money off of? I don't know. Making it say. It's from a site called Wealthy Gorilla. What did he make his money off of? I don't know. Making it say, uh? No, no, no, no. Oh, well, he's a former basketball player. Yeah. Record producer.

He must make all this money from producing. Yeah, probably. Okay. Anyway, I can't believe you never heard of Master P. I can't believe you interrupted this story for that. I'm so sorry. Make me say, shut up. Okay. So they go into this cake shop. They're so excited. They went in there actually on the recommendation of their wedding planner, and they had a ton of ideas for their cake. But the conversation didn't last long.

Right off the bat, the owner, Jack Phillips, asked them who the cake was for. And Charlie and David were like, Uh, it's for us. Yeah. At that point, Jack had to stop them. Yes, they'd walked into a cake shop with the insane goal of trying to buy a cake, but he couldn't help them. You see, he's a good Christian man,

and therefore it was against his religious beliefs to make a wedding cake for two dudes. God would see that cake and be super pissed at Jack. I don't think he would. Yeah, that's the way God works. It's not. God is really petty. God says love everyone, so. So Jack refused to make a wedding cake for Charlie and David.

And Charlie said that after that, Jack jack was like okay this this is ridiculous so jack is one of these like guys who wants to say something homophobic yeah like i'm not making you a cake because yeah i believe you're gonna die in a fiery pit or something right but at the same time like wants everyone to be real nice to him about it and like leave with a smile on their face i don't know so at this point charlie says that jack was like uh you know i i do have gay friends and um if you want to buy some cookies or some cupcakes i'd be more than happy to sell those to you what not a cake no he can't fucks the difference brandy brandy he can't make them a wedding cake because that would be him endorsing gay marriage no yes it would yes it would not but selling them cookies that would not be an endorsement on their marriage that's so

dumb i agree oh my gosh so charlie and David were like, no, thanks. Yeah. You look like you're going to throw up. Well, that's so that's ridiculous fucking logic. Yeah. And by the way. If you refuse to make a wedding cake for someone because they're in a same-sex relationship, I'm going to say you probably don't actually have gay friends. Yeah.

Like, give me a break, dude. Yeah, probably not. So Jack says that they swore at him and flipped him off, which he did not appreciate and evidently did not anticipate, which I'm like, how did you not? Yeah. Anyway, so Charlie and David left the bakery they were super upset they said they felt degraded and humiliated they said they'd never gone through anything like that before so they went on social media and told their friends what had happened

yeah Charlie told his mom Deborah I actually don't know if he told her individually or if she just saw this. But the next day, she called Masterpiece Cake Shop and was like, Uh, hi, um, my son and his fiancée wanted to try to buy a cake from you. What is your problem? Uh-huh. And Jack doubled down. He's a God-fearing Christian man, and he just wanted to embody that classic church hymn, They All Know We Are Christians By Our Hate.

That's not a song, Kristen. Do you know the song I'm parodying? I don't. There's a song, They Will Know. That's not the right. Anyway. I think that was uh what she'll be coming around the mountain yeah that was that was the no it's um they'll know we are christians by our love okay and they'll know we are christians by our love by our love oh i love that song anyway i should probably pause here and say, so I grew up.

You grew up very, yeah. I grew up going to church every week. Yeah. My family was super into church. Yeah. This case got me so pissed off and brought back all these old memories just because the church I grew up in was open and affirming. Yeah. So it wasn't one of those places where it's like gay people are going

to hell for this that or another yeah and it also wasn't one of those weirdo places that tries to be i almost hate these places more that try to somehow be in the middle in the middle yeah where it's maybe we'll just pretend that it doesn't exist, the thing I've always heard people say, which I think is so frustrating, love the sinner, hate the sin. No, it's not a sin. Exactly. No. Exactly. Ugh.

And like, look at yourself before you do that. Absolutely. How about, he who is without sin cast the first stone, asswipe. Yes. I believe that's a direct quote from the Bible. I think that's in Corinthians, right? So no, I just like, my church experience growing up was so positive. It was so fun.

It was a very loving, positive community. Yeah. a very loving positive community yeah and i really think it's so gross and so hateful when people act like oh well i'm a christian and therefore i have to hate gay people yeah no i submit that if you feel like as part of christianity you have to hate someone, you're doing it wrong. And God is not pleased. Not pleased at all. Okay. Anyway, so that's my rant. You ready to put that soapbox away?

It just makes me so mad. Oh, yeah, I totally agree. I think it's the most ridiculous bullshit. It makes me so, so mad because the Bible can, it's back out, Brandi, you joked about, the Bible can be used to justify so many horrible things. Yeah, exactly. It can be used to justify slavery. Yes. It can be used to justify being horrible to women. It can be used to justify all sorts of things if you want to use it that way. Why the fuck would you want to use it that way exactly when you could focus on all the passages

about love and compassion and forgiveness and i don't know worrying about yourself yeah so okay now it's it's gone is it gone for real this time probably not no i mean i'm like i'm like three paragraphs into wonderful so he told deborah that he didn't make wedding cakes for same-sex couples for two reasons. And they are? Number one, his religious beliefs prevented him from spreading the fondant. No! Number two. It's true! It's true!

Number two, the state of Colorado did not recognize same-sex marriages. So? Why do you care, buddy? Yeah. You're making the cake. Yes. That's a ridiculous argument. So here's the deal with Jack.

He has been a Christian for approximately 35 years, and he believes that decorating cakes is an art form, which I'm totally with him on that. He also believes that he can honor God through his artistic talents. Okay, I don't have an issue with that either. But if he were to make some of his edible art for a same-sex marriage, God would be displeased.

Don't worry. Charlie and David did eventually find a bakery that, get this, people are really missing out because they can't see all the eye-rolling that I'm doing.

I was going to say, you're doing a lot of head shaking, so much head shaking, so much eye rolling. This is infuriating to me. Do you want to talk a little? I mean, I got on my soapbox.

I just think, I mean, I don't have anything more to add than what you said. I completely agree with everything you said. Like it's so, it's so ridiculous to pick out, to pick and choose what you want to believe that God controls. If you believe that like God makes everybody special and God makes everybody the way they are,

then you then choose to believe that that's not how god made them that's so ridiculous to me and i still am like so you know for a long time it was like well is it a choice or is it a choice and it's like first of all let's say it is a choice it's not but let's say it's yeah Then who fucking cares? Who fucking cares? Who fucking cares? Who fucking cares? It makes me so mad. How is it hurting you in any fucking way that these two guys want to get married?

It's not affecting you at all. What are you going to say? My other thing is, okay, so you making this cake, that's an endorsement of their marriage. No, it's not! But let's say it is. Fine. It is. So then you're endorsing every marriage that you've ever made a cake for? Yeah.

What if that guy's beaten his wife? You're endorsing that. That's okay? What if they had premarital sex? Oh my gosh, what if they live together prior to the wedding you're endorsing that heavens to betsy oh my gosh what if they only do anal you're endorsing that other people who only my god i was i was pretending to be shocked and then i got really shocked

so charlie and david did eventually find a bakery that made them a cake but in the meantime they were still pretty pissed about being refused service they were like that was not okay yeah so they filed a complaint with the Colorado Civil Rights Commission. Because even though same-sex marriage was illegal in Colorado, the state... I have something in my nose that does not make sense. Oh, no, it does make sense. Okay, I was just... I was just...

Even though same-sex marriage was illegal in Colorado, the state did have the Colorado Anti-Discrimination Act. Okay, so under this act, a business which is open to the public cannot discriminate against customers on the basis of race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation. And I believe some other things. But, all right, so we're going to pause, do a quick side note. Yeah. There was a federal law that says that a public business can't discriminate against people.

But it didn't include any protection for gay people. I don't know if that's changed now. I hope it's changed now. But at the time of this legal battle, Colorado was one of like 21 states that had protections for sexual orientation. So Charlie and David filed their complaint, and that complaint resulted in a lawsuit. I saw this written a few different ways, but it looks like the first step was an administrative judge would look at this. And the administrative judge found that, indeed, Jack had violated the law.

Yeah. He was operating a business that serves the public, and he discriminated against Charlie and David on the basis of their sexual orientation. And I'm so damn sorry, but you can't do that. You can't do that. Yeah. The court didn't make Jack pay any damages, but the judge did say, hey, you can't discriminate against same-sex couples anymore.

Yeah. You're done with that. And by the way, you need to provide comprehensive staff training on how to not be an asshat to your staff. I believe he had like 10 employees at this place. How do you think Jack took it? Not well.

No, no. He was pissed. Like 10 employees at this place. How do you think Jack took it? Not well. No. No. He was pissed. He said he would rather close his cake shop than make wedding cakes for same-sex couples. Oh my gosh. Are you fucking kidding? Yeah. He was not ordered to pay money.

He was just told, hey man. You can't do that. You're running a public business here. Yeah. Where you make cakes for a living. Yeah. Can't turn people away because you don't like that there are two dudes. Yeah.

So, rather than comply with the order, he closed his business. Holy shit. By this point, people were fired up on both sides of the issue. A lot of people felt that Jack had discriminated against Charlie and David. Yes. Yes. But other people disagreed.

They felt that if anything, Jack was the victim of discrimination. Don't make that face, Brandy. In America, I don't know if you know this, we have a little thing called freedom of religion. Okay. Jack was just practicing his religion. He shouldn't have to go against his religious beliefs just because Charlie and David want to have a delicious wedding cake. That's not right. That's not the kind of country I want to live in. So at some point, the Civil Rights Commission had weighed in on this.

They'd also agreed with the administrative judge. I don't know if that was all part of one process. But anyway, Jack appealed this decision and this time he had a little help from the alliance defending freedom which why are you making that face it sounds like a bunch of bigots oh no no no group of bigots you've got it all wrong. It's just a conservative Christian group that advocates... Those are rough words together. That advocates on issues of religious freedom. Okay.

Oh, are you against religious freedom? Sanctity of life and marriage and family. So, okay. So they're anti-ab. So, okay. So they're anti-abortion too, obviously. Well, and we're making fun. We're making fun. I know we're making fun. But I do want to say one nice thing.

This group has done a ton of great work. Because they are, you know, a group that focuses on the family. So they've done a lot of great work trying to stop the separation of families at the border right now that's surprising that's a joke fuck off christian no they don't care about those families oh my gosh how dare you do that to me i totally made that up maybe they have i don't know maybe it's like the most shocking thing ever and they have help. No, they definitely haven't. They're too busy marching on Washington and demanding no one ever get an abortion ever.

How about this? How about we all mind our own fucking business and worry about ourselves? No, Brandi. No. No. If we have to worry about ourselves, then we might have to deal with our own yeah reasons sexual desires yes anyway jack now has this group helping him and charlie and david had the help of the aclu and the colorado civil rights commission so we've got like the sides are forming up right now.

I lost my words, so I just like swung my arms out like an eagle. I was going to say goose. No, I'm a bald eagle for America. I'm so sorry. I thought you were a goose. Like one of those mother gooses that's, you know, fighting off somebody coming near her young. Fighting off the alliance defending freedom.

Back off my uterus. So meanwhile, Jack and Charlie and David, you know, all three of them are getting a lot of hate from different sides, obviously. All the sides. All the sides. All the sides. Anti-gay people were being awful to Charlie and David. And Jack was very surprised that people were being mean to him. No, what? What?

It was so funny. The LA Times did this article. And Jack talked about how people threw garbage at his shop. They wrote a bunch of negative reviews online. He said he even got death threats, which, I mean, none of that is good. None of that is nice. Well, I mean, actually, the negative reviews. I'm totally fine with that.

I'm fine with that. Yeah. But he just seemed so genuinely. Shocked? Shocked. seemed so genuinely shocked. Shocked. I think he's one of these people who genuinely does not believe that he is discriminating against someone

and genuinely believes that he's the victim in the story. He said, I will serve anyone who comes in, and I think I can make friends with them. anyone who comes in and i think i can make friends with them again to me it that that kind of tiptoes into that whole love the sinner hate the sin where i can be looking down on you big time i can think but that terrible that you're doing terrible things but at the same time somehow he's already proven that that's not true, though. He refused them.

But his theory is, if gay people want to come into his shop and buy something... He'll do anything but make them a wedding cake. Because that would be him endorsing That's terrible fucking logic. same-sex marriage. Yes, it's so, so stupid.

So now we're in appellate court. Jack has removed himself from the cake-making business because he refuses to comply with the lower court's order. But once again, things don't go his way. The appellate court agreed with the lower court's decision and even said, hey, buddy, we don't mean to state the obvious, but by merely complying with an anti-discrimination law, you yourself are not in any way conveying a message that you actually

support same-sex marriage. You're just complying with a law, which is what all public businesses have to do. In court, Jack's lawyers had argued that making a cake was essentially an expression of free speech because it was made specifically for that couple. It was unique. It was custom. But the court was like, yeah, no, not exactly. You own a cake shop. Making a custom cake is just part of what you do. It's one of the services you offer. Yeah, right. It's not an expression of free speech or an exercise of your religion.

It's just what you do as a cake maker operating a public business. Okay. okay so by this point there was like a weird amount of cases regarding cakes sexuality and discrimination yeah because i guess at this time same-sex marriages were becoming more popular so all of a sudden this and you know one such case had actually taken place in colorado so while they're at it this appellate court was like, hey, we're going to take a minute to distinguish this case from that other case. Because we feel like people, you know, I think they thought people might see their ruling in this one and get confused. So they want to make it very clear. Here's why that court decided that. Here's why we're deciding this. Are you ready for the other case yes picture it a man

walks into a bakery he says hello i'd like to buy two bible shaped cakes please which i'm pretty sure is just a normal sheet just a square but you know okay whatever rectangle on one I'd like you to do a little image of two grooms and then put a big X over them. Then write, God hates sin, Psalm 45.7. Oh my goodness. And don't stop there. When you get to the other one, just write, homosexuality is a detestable sin. Leviticus 1822. And the cake shop refused. First of all, that's not the same fucking thing.

See, I just want to know, what party is this guy kidding? Can you imagine? You're showing this girl. There's a sheet cake. It's got to be like the graduation of one of those pray the gay away camps, right? It's a problem. Who's that politician whose husband runs the, I can't remember. I don't know.

That probably describes like a million politicians. I don't know. There's a politician whose husband runs a pray the gay away thing? Yeah, and he's for sure gay. This isn't from a movie? No, hang on, hang on. It's not like the fix the vampires thing in True Blood?

Politician, husband, gay camp. Oh, I'm just seeing a lot of Pete Buttigieg. Oh, Michelle Bachman! Yeah, her husband. Want to pray the gay away camp? I believe so.

That's just what I... Yeah, okay. Oh, gosh. Oh, no. So this baker... Well, she's a... Well, yeah, she's a nut job, too. She's a teabagger, right?

Tea partier? Don't say teabagger. Sorry, is that not the term? Yeah, I think she was a tea partier. Yeah. yeah i think she was a tea party yeah yeah so the baker was like dude i'm not writing that how about we compromise i will sell you the bible shaped cakes you do the other stuff and i'll even give you the bag of icing you can write whatever you want but i'm not writing that. So the dude flips out.

And by the way, he tried this at like three different bakeries and they all turned him down. Yes. I'm going to imagine that this was a stunt for him. Because really, I still maintain, although your guess about the gay conversion. Not bad, right? Not bad. I cannot imagine any other setting. I think it's parents day at gay conversion. I cannot imagine any other setting. I think it's parents day at gay conversion. Oh, it's Irene's last day at the office. Let's get her a cake. I know what we'll write on it.

So this guy was like, you know why they turned me down? They were discriminating against me because I am a Christian. And the anti-discrimination law says you can't discriminate for religion, so where's my cake? So he filed a complaint with the Colorado Civil Rights Commission. Do you need to take a minute? You got something to say? Well, it's not like... I'm sorry.

I've forgotten the gentleman's names in the original. Charlie and David. Okay, it's not like Charlie and David walked in there and asked Jack to make a cake that says, I love fucking dudes in the ass. Okay. Signed Jack the Cake Maker. Signed Jack the Cake Maker. Signed Jack the Cake Maker. Okay, that.

Yeah. That would be as close to the equivalent as I can come up with right now. Yes. It's not the same. Okay, very good. So it's about, it's about the message to you. to you yes okay that's kind of close to what the court found the court basically found no the baker didn't refuse to make your cake because you are a christian she refused to make your cake because she found the message offensive and that's an

important difference it is so the appellate courtate court in Charlie and David's case was like, the case is different from the Bible cake guy. Because those other bakeries that turned that guy down, turned him down based on the message he wanted written on the cake. But Jack turned Charlie and David down because he doesn't approve of same-sex marriage. And we consider that to be discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. Duh. Duh. sex marriage and we consider that to be discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation duh so charlie and david won their first case they won the appeal which makes total sense and that's where this story ends goodbye no it's not no once again jack and his conservative christian buddies were off. So they were like, you know what? We should take this case all the way to the Colorado Supreme Court. And the Colorado Supreme Court was like, no, thank you.

Thank you. So Jack and his buddies were like, that's fine. Because you know where we'd rather take this case? Like, that's fine. Because you know where we'd rather take this case? All the way to the Supreme Court! Jack and his merry band of homophobes were itching to get this thing to the Supreme Court because the Alliance Defending Freedom had taken on a few different lawsuits where businesses refused to provide services to same-sex couples.

Again, this is like the, it's all around the marriage stuff. Yeah. They fought for a photographer in New Mexico, a florist in Washington. But here's the thing. They kept losing. Yeah. Yeah. As they should have.

It seemed clear that a lot of the state's courts weren't swayed by their arguments. But what about the highest court in all the land? I don't know if I can handle it, Kristen. I know. If they could get the Supreme Court to weigh in and the Supreme Court came down on their side, it would be a complete game changer for the entire country. Kristen Wagner was one of the attorneys for the Alliance Defending Freedom and she said that this was all about tolerance. She said, tolerance should be a two-way street. The First Amendment protects Jack's right to create artistic expression that is consistent with his core convictions it's funny

i don't think that's a terrible argument it's really not to try to make it about artistic expression and free speech it's really not but, I just think if you're running a public business and this is part of what you do, it's not an endorsement of any of your customers. But Louise Melling. but louise melling what if a devil worshiper uh-huh came in and wanted a wedding cake for their devil wedding would you have made that see that's the thing is i don't think he would have known that they were exactly yeah but like okay so he's super duper christ Christian. What if a Jewish couple walks in? Is he going to make something for their wedding? Like, where does his disapproval begin and end?

And what if only one of the gentlemen had come in, and he hadn't known that it was a same-sex... Well, then that's fine, because he wouldn't have, you know, once he figured it out, Brandy. Okay. So Louise Melling, who was the deputy director of the ACLU, was like, you know, OK. You know, she'd heard the other side's argument. She's like, but think about where that could go.

If we have a constitutional right to discriminate against other people based on our religion, where are the limits? Could a landlord refuse to rent to unmarried couples? Yes. Could a Christian baker, oh, I guess I just stole her example. Could a Christian baker refuse to serve Jewish customers? See, and that's my thing. It's like, yes, I believe that there's an argument that cake making is an art form, sure,

but this creates a really scary, slippery slope for discrimination. It sure does. So a lot of people did not expect the Supreme Court to weigh in on this. First of all, because the Supreme Court only takes so many cases. And also because they'd had the opportunity

to weigh in on a similar case a few years prior and they hadn't been interested. But in 2017, the court agreed to hear their case. Oral arguments began in December. So here's, here was the argument for Masterpiece Cake Shop. Look, Colorado has this law, and the aim of that law is to ensure that same-sex couples have access to the same services as a heterosexual couple. And you know what? That's great. But Colorado has gone way, way cuckoo overboard trying to enforce this law because you know what? Charlie and David easily got their wedding cake.

They just had to buy it from somewhere else. No harm done. No. Yeah. No, I don't like this at all. I don't, yeah. This is, this smells a little bit like, oh no, well, you know, you can't use the same water fountain as me.

Yeah, exactly. You'll have to use that one over there. It's provided to you. Yeah. That's bullshit. It is bullshit. And by the way, this is supposed to be an anti-discrimination law. But you know what it's doing?

It's discriminating against religion. Yeah. And you know how we know it? Because the state allows bakers to refuse to make anti-same-sex marriage cakes. Discrimination! Mm-hmm. They really wanted that, you know... Yeah.

Anti-gay cake. Ugh. Ugh. But the state of Colorado... Yes, the state allows you to discriminate against discrimination. That's exactly how I see it. Yeah, and like there's nothing wrong with that. So back off.

Oh my gosh. So the opposite side, the state of Colorado and the ACLU were like, hold on, hold up, wait a minute. First of all, that law you're talking about, ain't number two different. Get on the floor if you got that booty. talking about ain't number two is only aimed at the conduct of a business it is not aimed at anyone's free speech and by the way let's talk about fucking wedding cakes for a second okay no reasonable person is going to see a wedding cake at a same-sex couple's wedding and think to themselves,

my goodness, the person who baked that cake and spread the fondant clearly endorses gay marriage. I'm sorry, how is it that you think fondant goes on, Kristen? Oh, you know, it's like that, you're right, it's more like a hard play-doh. Okay, well, anyway. Excuse me. So they were like, no, bitch. People are going to think that you're a baker who made a cake. Yes, who baked a cake.

No one's going to think anything about your religious views. And by the way, if any business is super upset about this law and thinks that people are going to misunderstand their politics or their religious beliefs they can post a sign in their business that says something like hey the services we provide are not an endorsement of the free speech associated with it blah blah blah blah i don't know why you would, because it's so obvious that you're not endorsing anything, but whatever. Amicus briefs started rolling in. So a lot of civil rights groups wrote briefs in support of Charlie and David. And when you total them all up, by the way, the Wikipedia page on this whole thing, fabulous.

Excellent. The briefs were pretty evenly split on both sides. I couldn't see that. Yeah. But the most notable brief was in support of Jack's side. Mm-hmm. Under the watchful eye of our Cheeto-in-chief, the United States Department of Justice wrote a brief supporting Jack. In their brief, they said, Hey, anti-discrimination laws are awesome. We love them. Some of our best friends are anti-discrimination laws.

But let's not go crazy. These laws shouldn't be used to force a business into expressing speech that is against their own beliefs. And they shouldn't be used to force a business into providing goods and services without letting that business be like, Hey dudes, I'll sell you this photo session, but just know that I think you'll burn in a fiery pit for all eternity. Oh my gosh. By the way, that's not a direct quote. I picked up on that, my gosh. By the way, that's not a direct quote. I picked up on that. Thank you.

So both sides did their oral arguments and the justices asked their questions. And experts who were watching this whole thing go down were like, oh, boy, this is going to be a close one. Yeah. People predicted that it would all come down to Justice Anthony Kennedy. He would be the swing vote. Okay, do you know anything about him? Very little. Okay, so this is why people were like pulling their hair out.

It was almost impossible to know where he would fall on this because, so number one, he's pretty into gay rights, but also... Very Christian. Super into freedom of religion, and super into a corporation's right to free speech. Which... The notion that corporations are people is just beyond... Yeah.

Okay. Anyway, so he's got these beliefs yeah and it's like it's all coming to a head in this case and people were like which way do you go he's gonna be the swing vote we have no idea where he's gonna land finally on june 4th 2018 the court issued its ruling they sided sided with Masterpiece Cake Shop. They did? Did you not know this? No.

You didn't? No. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Yeah, they sided with Jack. Okay, this is very interesting that you did not know this. So you thought that Charlie and David won

or did you not remember i didn't remember how it yeah okay i have a theory on why you did not remember okay so and i'll get to that later justice anthony kennedy wrote the opinion and you know how these justices on the supreme court you know you always get some dissenters you get get some concurring, you get some, you know, like everybody wants to write their own little thing. Well, this one, a shocking number of people all kind of glommed onto the same opinion. We had Anthony Kennedy, John Roberts, Samuel Alito, Stephen Breyer, Elena Kagan, and Neil Gorsuch. And the opinion basically said that the Colorado Civil Rights Commission had been unfair about Jack's faith. They'd not taken into account his sincerely held religious beliefs.

Anthony seemed particularly pissed about a statement that the commission made, which I think this came out in oral arguments. The commissioner said, freedom of religion and religion has been used to justify all kinds of discrimination throughout history, whether it be slavery, whether it be the Holocaust, whether it be, I mean, we can list hundreds of situations where freedom of religion has been used

to justify discrimination. What do you think of that? It's probably true. I think it is factually true. But Anthony Kennedy thought that that statement in particular, you know, mentioning slavery, mentioning the Holocaust, was just way too out there. He was like, hey, we were supposed to apply the law

in a way that is neutral toward religion, not hostile toward religion. So my theory on why you did not remember which way this went down is because this is kind of a weird opinion. Like he's not really obviously he is taking a side. Yeah, he's taking the side of masterpiece cake shop but his opinion is so narrow that it didn't have any broad sweeping implications for anyone it was like a victory in a way for no one yeah he didn't say here are some guidelines for exactly what the government can do when they try to regulate a business in this situation or limits on what they should do. Yeah. Which is kind of I think it's funny that he sided with them, but he didn't then say this is how it should have gone down or this is exactly the way the error happened. It was just, you guys were dicks to this guy. That is interesting.

That's unusual. To me, it says, to me, it says he didn't really want to hear this case. Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, I mean, the Supreme Court obviously picks and chooses what cases they want to hear. And it makes me think he didn't want to do this one. Yeah. Because, you know, I mean, the Supreme Court obviously picks and chooses what cases they want to hear. And it makes me think he didn't want to do this one. Because he didn't like he didn't come down and make any kind of sweeping recommendations on either side. It was all about this specific case and how the Colorado Civil Rights Commission had been unfair toward Jack.

He mentioned that other case where the guy went to the different bakers and asked for the anti-gay messages. And Justice Kennedy was like, you guys were being inconsistent there. You weren't being neutral in regard to religion, which I disagree with. I do too. He wrote,

the outcome of cases like this in other circumstances must await further elaboration in the courts, all in the context of recognizing that these disputes must be resolved with tolerance, without undue disrespect to sincere religious beliefs, and without subjecting gay persons to indignities when they seek goods and services in an open market. Wow. and dignities when they seek goods and services in an open market. Wow.

So, you know, again, like he affirms the rights of gay people. He says that Jack was treated unfairly. And that was that. That was it. The legal battle was over. But Masterpiece Cake Shop couldn't seem to stay out of the courtroom. I don't know when this guy has time to bake cakes. I'm going to touch on this next thing very briefly because it's a huge thing.

It's still ongoing. So I'm not promising I'm covering this thing completely. But in June of 2017, a Colorado lawyer named autumn scardian wanted a cake that would celebrate her gender transition so where did she go masterpiece cake yes which i think come on she had to have been being shitty about that right because why would you would you go there yeah so she wanted a cake that was pink on the inside and blue on the outside, which I think is adorable. Yeah. And of course, Jack was like, no. Jesus will not allow me to make this cake.

Jesus won't let me make it. He said that due to his Christian beliefs, that people don't get to choose their gender. This, of course, turned into another legal battle. Of course it did. And again, I'm not going to get into all of it because it's still ongoing, not finished. this of course turned into another legal battle. Of course it did. And again, I'm not going to get into all of it because it's still ongoing, not finished. But that is the story of Masterpiece Cake Shop. Wow.

Yes. Huh. Yeah, no, I didn't know how that ended. What? I'm honestly surprised that that's the position that the Supreme Court took on it. I am too. Yeah. I am too. Yeah.

I am too. I really thought they would side with Charlie and David. So did I. Huh. Interesting. I felt like they were trying to wiggle out of making a decision. That's almost what it feels like. But at the same time, that can't totally be right because they chose it.

Yeah. I just wonder, I wonder who wanted to take the case and who didn't. Yeah. Hmm. Interesting. But you know, speaking of Supreme Court. Hey, we have inductions to do. We have inductions to do. We have inductions to do.

Okay, so induction time. If you're wondering how you can get inducted into the Supreme Court. We're so glad you asked. Yes, all you have to do is join our Patreon. Head on over to patreon.com slash lgtc

podcast and join up at the Supreme Court level. There's also the appellate court and district court levels. And you get an awesome sticker. You get an induction on an episode. And you get to be super cool people like us. And you get to join the Discord.

Did you ever say Discord? I don't think I said the Discord. But the Discord's so fun. And you get to listen to bonus episodes. All right, so here we go. For this... Oh, sorry. No, you should say it

because it was your idea. So for this round of inductions, we are going to read the inductee's name and their favorite word. So everybody, please stand and place your hand

over your left eye. Tyler Dodd Kerfuffle Kyla Pitts Zevin Berm Corey Squires Fuck Danielle Boleyn

Tum Tum Amber Ogles Crepuscular Rays Kelsey David Mitsubishi Ogles. Crepuscular Rays. Thank you. Kelsey David. Mitsubishi. Janet Shepard. Petrichor.

Oh, and it means the smell of rain. I've always wondered because there is such a scent. Yeah, there's such a scent. Oh, I'm sorry. Welcome to the Supreme Court. Amazing. I loved favorite words. Oh, that was just, I think it's so fun because I, do you want to, should we tell our favorite words? Sure. My favorite word is pants. Has been pants since I was like 12.

Well, clearly you've not evolved. I've not. Um, no, I think one of the reasons I got so excited was Tyler Dodd was the first one to comment. He commented kerfuffle. Yeah. I love the word kerfuffle. Perfect. You can't have a serious look on your face when you say kerfuffle.

No. Yeah. All right. Thank you to everyone who has already joined our Patreon. We appreciate your support so, so much. As we mentioned, a new bonus episode was just released so uh if you want to hear that join on up uh also you know while you've got your computer out find us on social media we're on facebook we're on twitter we're on instagram we're on reddit we're

on youtube we're all those places and you know we do cool things there sometimes and then uh while you're at it head on over to itunes leave us a rating. Leave us a review. And then, once you've done all that, be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned! And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate

it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from Wikipedia, the LA Times, the New York Times, and the Washington Post. And I got my info from the Crime Library, NorthOmahaHistory.com, and the Omaha World Herald. For a full list of our sources, history.com and the Omaha world Herald for a full list of our sources,

visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.