Let's Go To Court! - 91: Fatty Arbuckle & Strangers with Candy

Episode Date: October 16, 2019

Fatty Arbuckle was a star. He could act. He could sing. He could make an audience roar with laughter. By the 1910s, he was one of the highest paid actors, and among the most popular stars of silent films. It seemed like nothing could stop his shine. But then, following a weekend of partying at the St. Francis Hotel in San Francisco, his friend Virginia Rappe died. It wasn’t immediately clear why Virginia died, but her friend supplied the answer: Virginia had been raped and killed by one of America’s most beloved stars. Then Kristin tells us about the ultimate old-timey kidnapping. If your parents ever warned you about taking candy from strangers, this is why. On July 1, 1874, four-year-old Charley Ross and his six-year-old brother Walter were playing in their front yard when two men pulled up in a horse-drawn carriage. The men offered to buy the boys candy and fireworks. Naturally, the boys jumped at the chance. The men took the boys on a long, winding ride. They stopped at a store, and gave Walter 25 cents to buy fireworks. But after Walter made his purchase, he came back outside to find that the men were gone. They’d taken Charley with them. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Charley Ross: Efforts to induce Westervelt to confess — he says, ‘search the Catholic Institutions,’” The Tennessean “Among the missing: Charley Ross,” by Jay Robert Nash for The Tampa Tribune “A notorious 19th century kidnapping in Brooklyn,” by Michael Pollak for The New York Times “‘JonBenet’ case of its time — 1874,” by Jeff Gammage for The Philadelphia Inquirer “Little Charley Ross,” The St. Albans Advertiser “The story of Charley Ross,” ushistory.org “The disappearance of Charley Ross,” by Steven Casale for The Lineup  In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Fatty Arbuckle and the Death of Virginia Rappe” by Denise Noe, The Crime Library “The Skinny on the Fatty Arbuckle Trial” by Gilbert King, Smithsonian “Roscoe Arbuckle” wikipedia.org

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about strangers with candy.

And I'll be talking about Fatty Arbuckle. I am so excited. Oh, it's theme. It's a theme. There's a theme! Okay, this was a close one. We had the people on Patreon vote between ongoing cases and old-timey cases. Or ongoing cases. Yeah, brandy had a typo and it turns out once one person votes you can't correct the typo so ongoing is now two words that's correct

this was our closest vote yet by far if you are wondering how you could have voted on this topic kristen's gonna tell you how here's the thing for just two dollars a month that makes you a district court judge in our patreon and you get to vote on topics you get episode updates for five dollars a month you get all that plus you get access to the discord and our bonus episodes which we just had a new one come out that's right what'd we talk about brandy you guys i can't tell you what we talked about but what i can tell you you is that Kristen and I came with the same fucking case. It was horrible. It's never happened to us before.

We discovered it two and a half hours before we were supposed to record. So I was like, I believe I can fly. I believe that it's worth being a patron just to hear that shit go down. It was a classic mix-up classic blunder yeah so if you want to hear me panic and um hear the case that i threw together in two and a half hours you can only do it on patreon yeah it's amazing i i was watching uh a baseball game and Kristen walked in and it looked like she had like pooped on the floor. She looked so like distraught and ashamed.

She's like, never guess what just happened. Didn't even have a Bed Bath & Beyond bag to shit in. That's how dire these circumstances were. Oh, we do have a big announcement. And this is kind of exciting because really thanks to patreon we finally have money oh i'm just gonna say and i'm learning about this announcement just like you are no i do i know about i was dead no i knew what you're talking about so we finally actually have some money thank you to you fine patrons and we would like to hire someone to edit our episodes. Yes, but not just anyone. We are looking for someone with experience,

someone who thinks we're hilarious and beautiful. No, I'm just kidding. You must think we're super hot. You must think we're smart. You must think we're funny. No, we are looking for an experienced audio editor. We are looking for someone

who has listened to the podcast so they know the style. And we're looking for someone who can send us their resume and a cover letter and some audio samples to lgtcpodcast at gmail.com. If you want to learn more about it, you can read the job description on our website, lgtcpodcast.com. And Peanut wants your help too. I don't know if you heard her bark but but i'd really like to take a load off my shoulders that's right yeah so if you're interested in that please head on over to our website and then send us your resume and some samples of your work to lgtcpodcast at gmail.com you're gonna make big money baby wow don't oversell it no

no but we will pay a fair rate yes absolutely okay brandy i am so excited yes i am ready so first of all right off the top i have to say thank you to my papa tim my dad are we using old-timey lingo i call him papa when I want to get his attention. He's like, oh my God, shut up. I'm like, Dad, Dad. And he doesn't pay attention. I'm like, Papa. So thank you to my dad who recommended this case for me.

I knew like a little bit about it. And I think I knew the same little bit about it that everybody knows. And it's not even fucking true let's hear the truth brandy let me what's happening kristen i'm sorry i want to adjust my mic again stop it stop it we're professionals damn it norm out that sound yeah it's gonna have to be cut big rumble okay next thank you to Denise No oh my god for the crime library

she is my friend and she doesn't know it she brings me the greatest the greatest source articles and then also Gilbert King for the Smithsonian all right do you know who Fatty Arbuckle is not really I mean i've heard the name yeah so he's a silent film actor was like right up there with charlie chaplin in the

early 1900s actually and we'll learn this had like the one of the biggest movie deals in history when suddenly adobe flash i'm sorry what are you doing adobe flash intervened i would not have guessed that they were around anyway um when scandal and well we'll see what happens just kind of derailed Just kind of derailed his life. Okay. Roscoe Arbuckle, as he was born, was born... He wasn't named Fatty. He was not named Fatty. He was born March 24th, 1887 in Smith Center, Kansas.

It's like north-central Kansas near Concordia. Okay. Which is funny. So I just looked this up because I wasn't sure where Smith Center was. And my dad's family is from Cortland, Kansas, which is this little tiny town. The towns are 50 miles apart. Wow. Smith Center and Cortland.

Okay. So anyway, so he was born there. And he always joked about how that was like a tiny, tiny town. And he said two things blew it right off the map, a tornado and his birth. He was a gigantic baby um like how big 13 pounds 14 pounds 16 pounds depending on what source you look at could we pause here yes and norman would you tell your story about being a big baby? Norman and I are both big babies. Yeah, but Norman holds the record. I don't know if we've talked about this on the podcast.

No, we haven't. But, yes, I was a big baby. How big? I was 10 pounds. I was also 10 pounds. 10 pounds, 3 ounces. They called me Monster Baby. All the doctors came to see me.

I was born in Okinawa, Japan. And I was a freakishly big baby in my hospital yes he was the fattest baby that had ever been born in that hospital yeah i'm sure it's been broken it's probably because we were both born on this on june 12th yeah 10 pound babies born on june 12th couple of freaks we are a couple of freaks it is crazy how much stuff i know i know you're both wildly in love with me yes that's exactly right we're both white you love me and you're both white end of list that's it so to take a note out of your book, Kristen. Okay. This is an old timey case. Oh, are you feeling a little? And the facts are sometimes a bit contradictory in certain articles.

And so I've done my best to go with the stuff that I felt was most consistent. So I believe he was a 13 pound baby. I am not going to give you any wiggle room on any of this. He had a terrible family life from the beginning his father was convinced that his wife had had an affair and that he was not the father of young roscoe because both um roscoe roscoe's dad and mom were both very thin. And then she delivered this giant baby. And so he was like, for sure, you fuck somebody else.

Yeah. But she was like a very conservative religious woman. It is widely believed that she did not have any type of affair. Sometimes you just have a big baby. You just have a big baby. baby so he named roscoe after this republican politician roscoe conkling who he hated oh yes as punishment he named roscoe arbuckle after this politician that he did not like which is just like a horrible thing yes uh He was a big baby. He was a big kid.

He was big his whole life. Right. He was teased as a child because of his size. And he kind of took on the nickname Fatty as a way to like, I'll make fun of myself before you can make fun of me. But he hated it. He hated the nickname. As he grew into adulthood, he became famous with that name. But if his friends called him, he was quick to correct them and say, my name is Roscoe.

Oh. Yeah. Yeah. He was hilarious. He used comedy to, you know, break the ice and deal with, you know, being different than his friends. And he had this beautiful singing voice. It was around the age of eight that he figured out that he was, while he was shy and nervous, and always kind of on the defensive as himself, he just completely

came alive on the stage. And he was this amazing performer and despite his size he was like incredibly limber and so he could do like acrobatics and stuff so he would sing he would do acrobatic acts he did all kinds of stuff and he really like thrived in that life in 1899 when he was 12 years old his mom died his mom had had health problems ever since he was born and his father blamed her death on him oh saying that it was his father was an asshole oh absolutely it was his fault that he had done permanent damage to his mother because just you know coming into the world because he was a fucking 13 pound baby but it was also her fault because she was such a whore that's exactly right yeah so roscoe's father was left to, you know, raise him alone.

And so. He did a bang up job, right? Yeah. He nurtured him. No, he abandoned him. He took off. He moved away and left 12 year old Roscoe to fend for himself. Good Lord.

Yeah. So he ended up moving to California. I think they actually moved to California before this happened. I think they only lived in Kansas for a short time. So the family was living in California. I think they actually moved to California before this happened. I think they only lived in Kansas for a short time. So the family was living in California. He moved to San Jose and took up like got a job doing or doing like odd jobs around a hotel. Handy J's, if you will.

Stop it. Norm, right? Handy J's. Yep. Yeah. And while he was working there, he often sang while he was doing the work around the hotel and one day somebody heard him um like a producer or something and was like and like discovered him oh my gosh yeah i was like i gotta put you in my act uh-huh but this guy had

this act um or this show that was like at one of those theaters where they had like the big hook oh that would pull you off stage yeah yeah yeah and so roscoe was super nervous to do it but he decided he was gonna debut his like his fatty arbuckle character he was gonna go he sang the audience really enjoyed the singing but then it kind of you know died down a little bit the enthusiasm and so the hook came out for him and so he did like these pratfalls and he like flipped out of the way of the hook and he flipped off of the stage and the crowd loved it yes and from then on he was like a staple in the theater scene he traveled around the world he went to japan um with a traveling theater company he performed all over in these like comedic acts. He had this one act where he could throw two pies

in two different people's faces in opposite directions. Oh my gosh. People loved him. He performed for Sid Grauman. Who's that? Grauman's Chinese Theater. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and got on with a company that he owned.

He was doing great. And he was loving it. He loved traveling the world doing this. At one point they during when he was doing this like traveling company, they went to this place called the Last Chance Saloon in Montana. And there was this woman who performed there every night well one night when they were there she was so drunk that she couldn't go on stage and the people were pissed like the people would showed up to watch the show right we're pissed and so Fatty Arbuckle tried to go on stage in her place and people were like no not having it they were mad so he had this idea where he ran off stage he went into her dressing room and he dressed up in drag essentially and came out and pretended to be a woman singer

he had this beautiful like sopranic voice where he could sing and people loved it the next night the place was packed they wanted this woman back um And so he performed as in drag again as this woman. Only this time, Lily, this woman who's like standing act, it was she found out about it. She was pissed and she came out and she pulled the wig off his head in the middle of the act. And so he like went running through the crowd like they're pushing tables over and everybody thought it was just part of like a big like rehearsed thing. Everybody loved it except for Lily. Well, yeah. I'm sure Lily was pissed.

She was like, I'm taking my fucking show back. Thank you. And so they had to move on out of there. Yeah. But Roscoe was doing exactly what he loved. He loved to perform. He loved to make people laugh. Around 1909, he was back in California, no longer doing

like the traveling thing. And he got cast in a movie. At this time, movies were really new. And actors were seen as like vagrants. Lots of hotels and restaurants had signs up about renting to actors and stuff like that. So he didn't want to tell anyone that he'd been cast in this movie. He was, like, embarrassed by it. Stage actors were very prestigious. People performing in the silent films, not at all. Wow, okay.

Why is that? I don't know why that is. Is it because it was just new? Yeah, I think it was just new. Yeah. So stage actors were, like, I think it was just weird. And yeah, so stage actors were like the thing. People loved them. People, you know, traveled to see stage actors.

But movie actors were not respectable and even seen as like, yeah, like less than. So he was super embarrassed. He didn't tell anybody that he did it. But it went well for him. and he started a career in silent films what's important to i think mention about him is that while he used his size as kind of like his shtick he would never do like jokes about it specifically like he wouldn't do the like caught in a doorway joke and stuff like that and he also was very meticulous about his appearance. He always was very put together, always wore a suit, very clean.

He would not like joke to like the fat slob kind of stereotype. He would not lower himself to that. Around the same time when he's like doing his movie career starting he meets this woman a singer named menta durfee and they start a relationship um and it is it's great they did they get married he calls her minty as like her little pet name on their wedding night, at their wedding reception, Roscoe's friends start teasing him about how Minta is so petite and how he's so large. And he's going to crush her. Yeah. How the hell are you going to have sex with her without crushing her? Hearing him and just like making fun of him. So much so that that night when they're alone for the first time, like as a married couple, Roscoe couldn't consummate the marriage.

He was too nervous. He couldn't stop thinking about what everyone had said. He said, Minty, I'm sorry. I can't. He had he was not a virgin. He had had one sexual encounter before before but he just all he could think of was what those people had said to him and so he had anxiety yeah so that night the two just like laid in bed and held each other and um it was like a couple of weeks before he had the confidence to

consummate his marriage i just think that this is like this just tells you so much about him and it's going to become important later in this story okay eventually he joins up with another traveling company he joins um when he gets so that one takes him to japan and china he does these shows and then he comes back and he joins mac senate's studio which was called key called Keystone. This was a very famous group. And they had several short films about the Keystone cops. These are those like funny schtick silent comedies. If you saw a picture of it, you'd recognize that they have like the funny cop uniforms on.

And like they're all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he did several single re reels and that's just like a short film i believe and that's how they refer to him single reels with them and then he just keeps growing he keeps getting more and more famous he starts his own little company and he discovers buster keaton who becomes a huge comedian. And Fatty Arbuckle is the one who discovered him. Eventually, Roscoe's company grows so big and his fame grows so big that Paramount wants him to sign an exclusivity contract with them. And so he gives his company to Buster Keaton because Buster helped him grow it.

And so he's like yes that's fine and he signs this unprecedented deal with Paramount it's like 1917 and he signs a three year three million dollar deal adjust that for inflation 38 million dollars whoa yeah that is incredible on the deal he has to put out 21 movies in three years oh yeah that seems like a lot yeah so he's just like cranking out these movies and he feels like the quality has really gone down yeah not as good they're not up to standards but among them are a couple that that do well and that i think that like if people who are into this kind of thing would recognize the names of today i didn't recognize any of them other than brewster's millions that's the one that i recognize the name of but the other one

was look who's talking too uh yeah so it's like 1921 he is going to have to go to san francisco to film a larger feature film and his director and friend a director and his friend this guy fred fischbach is like hey it's labor day weekend let's head out to san francisco let's just take some time off let's party for the weekend right he's like okay yeah i'm down like let's do that prohibition is in full swing at this time but they're gonna like uh fred tells him he's got a hookup in san francisco they're gonna have booze there's gonna be ladies there's gonna be friends love music the victrola will be cranked you know whatever what i picture is have you seen the great gatsby the one with leonardo dicaprio no okay yes okay so you know when they go to the city for the afternoon they have that party in the in the

hotel room that's exactly what i'm picturing so they go to the saint francis hotel in san francisco which is still there today hang on if you look up saint francis um san francisco it will come it's now a western yeah it's now a western oh man that lobby is a western wanky it's now a western sold out man yeah so they rent like three adjoining rooms. As they're getting ready to leave for this trip, though, Roscoe has like this fancy car. Remember, it's like 1920, 1921. So like cars are still, you know, kind of in their infancy, whatever. He's got this very fancy car.

He takes it to get worked on. And while it's getting worked on, he like sits down on a stool inside the mechanic shop. And he sits on an acid-soaked rag. And he gets second-degree burns like all over his butt. Who leaves an acid-soaked rag on a stool? I don't know. So he tries to cancel the trip. Well, yeah.

And Fred's like, no, no, no. I've already got this whole thing set up. You are going. You're not getting out of this. He acid burned his butthole. He's like, I don't know if I can. I don't think it got to the hole. You don't know that it didn't get to the hole.

I guess I don't know that it didn't get to the hole. We can't confirm. So he's like, no, we are doing this. You are coming. And he's like, I can't sit for very long. Yeah. And he's like no we are doing this you are coming and he's like i can't sit for very long yeah and he's like too bad we are doing this and he's like okay fine so they get to the saint francis they have the three rooms ready it's gonna be a great fun relaxing Labor Day weekend off. Or would it be? Maybe that acid rag was sent by God. Maybe it was. Don't you hate that friend that does the peer pressure thing?

Yes! Come on, we're doing this, man. Yeah. I have had so many friends who are like, Kristen, I don't care that you sat on that acid-soaked rag. The decision to give in to his friend's peer pressure would impact the rest of his life. Because had he not been in that hotel, had he not been at that party, the trajectory of his future would have been so different. It's September 5th, 1921, Labor Day.

Roscoe wakes up. It's like late morning maybe early afternoon he's got his pajamas on he's walking around his hotel room it's been just like a weekend of people just in and out whatever and he sees that there are a bunch of people there in the hotel room earlier than he would like them to be like sure party's not really started yet can you come back later i'm still in my pajamas yeah and then specifically there's a couple of women there that he doesn't love the idea of them being there one of them is um a woman that he's known for years he's worked with on and off but she has a bit of a reputation in the business of being promiscuous um things like that and i'll talk a little bit more about that later but the other one has this horrible reputation of blackmailing men oh yes and has

actually been charged with it before oh shit okay yes so Okay. Yes. So he's like. I was going to say the promiscuous stuff. I'm sure there were a bunch of horny ass dudes. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Worth noting at this point. So as his fame grew, he started drinking a lot. And his relationship with Minta really went downhill. At this point, they were separated, but not yet divorced, I believe.

He doesn't love that these two women are there. He doesn't love that anybody's there at all. This one woman is known as a madam and a blackmailer. Madam as in like brothel? Yeah. Oh, okay, gotcha. A lady of the night. A lady of the night.

And so he's not into it. Okay. But time goes by. More people show up. Things are going okay. It's like 3 o'clock in the afternoon by this point. Oh, God, this did start too early. Oh, yeah, started way too early.

And a friend, a female friend that had been staying in one of the rooms was like, hey, I need a ride to blah, blah, blah. And so Roscoe's like, no problem. I'll take you home. So he goes into his room to change his clothes. And he had his own, like, private room. Like, one of the rooms was reserved for him. One of the rooms was reserved for Fred.

And then one was just kind of like the party room. Right. So it was like a suite. Yeah. Except it was three separate rooms. But whatever. They were all conjoined. Right.

So he's like, okay, I'm going to go and change my clothes and then I'll take you. So he goes into the room. He closes his door. And then he goes to go into his bathroom in his room. And there is one of the women um the one that he knows well her name is virginia rep um he's worked with her on and off um multiple times over the years but she's the one that has kind of the reputation okay whatever and she is on the floor of the bathroom vomiting and very sick and so by his account, he picks her up.

He takes her to the bed. And then he goes like back into the bathroom and kind of cleans it up a little bit. Changes his clothes. He comes out. She's no longer on the bed. She's now on the floor. And she's like writhing in pain. At some point, her friend, Maude Delmont, who is the woman who is known as the briber and the madam, she, according to her, comes and pounds on the door because she hears Virginia in distress inside the room. And she hears Virginia screaming.

And she busts in the door and she sees Fatty Arbuckle on top of Virginia raping her. That's one version. Okay. In Roscoe Arbuckle's version, he picks her up off the floor. He picks Virginia up off the floor, puts her back on the bed. She asks for water. She says she's in pain. He opens the door to the bedroom.

Several people come in and start tending to her. on the bed she asks for water she says she's in pain he opens the door to the bedroom several people come in and start tending to her they end up putting her in the bathtub in like a cold bath and they can't figure out what is going on with her she has had a ton to drink and so they think that she might be having alcohol poisoning, something like that. Well, it was probably like bathtub gin. Yeah, exactly. And that's exactly they called it a gin party. So, yeah, I'm sure that it was super sketch. Yes.

At one point, Virginia starts like tearing at her clothes and screaming and she's inconsolable. And Roscoe's done. He's like, I don't want to deal with this. So he actually leaves. He leaves and he gives a ride to the friend who needed the ride. And he comes back and they've at this point, he when he comes back, Virginia is still a mess. They've got her in the bed. They're icing her, whatever.

They call a doctor finally at some point and a doctor comes and he says uh yeah she's drunk and they're like thank you for your professional opinion so the doctor like has her just continue she's like she needs to sleep it off yeah and so they leave her in the bed and the party continues there's more drinking there's dancing there's whatever the doctor comes back to check on her the ho there's like a hotel physician and so like that doctor comes back just to check on her um and he gives her a shot of morphine to like get her through whatever is going on whatever pain she's in and hopefully let her just kind of go to sleep and sleep off the i mean she's just they believe that she's just very drunk at that point the party like kind of winds down

whatever the doctor comes back in the morning to check on her again and this time they want to give her more morphine and her friend that had been there with her is like hey she hasn't gone to the bathroom at all and so they they insert a catheter so that she can urinate because they're like yeah could be causing the source of her pain if she's just not able to urinate something might be going on she might have like a um a urinary tract infection she was also rumored to have had several abortions and so they thought and probably illegal abortions. So she probably had. Yeah.

Was it? I mean, I know it became legal. Yeah. Well, but in the 70s, but like, yeah. It's going to become a topic later at trial about what she had undergone and how it may have affected her body. Okay. what she had undergone, and how it may have affected her body. Okay.

So I guess I don't know for sure that they were illegal, but maybe not just like the best medical care. Sure, sure. Scar tissue and whatever. And so they were like, for whatever reason, she can't urinate and she needs to urinate. Right. She is in this hotel room for a couple of days with a doctor just like checking in every now and again and giving her more and more food.

Yeah. It's several days later when they finally take her to a hospital. And she died in the hospital on Friday, September 9th. Because her bladder burst. Oh, no. Yeah. on friday september 9th because her bladder burst oh no yeah oh no so she died of acute peritonitis which is an infection that was caused by the rupturing of her bladder good god and the cause of her bladder rupturing would be what the entire trial would come down to when they charged fatty arbuckle with her death wow yeah

so immediately when she dies the newspapers print all kind of stories about how she was raped by Fatty Arbuckle. She was raped with a Coke bottle, a champagne bottle. She was crushed to death by him when he attempted to have sex with her. Oh, come on. This is put all over the front of every newspaper before Roscoe has even been arrested or charged with her death holy shit roscoe could not believe what a fall from grace it was he said i don't understand it one minute i'm the guy everybody loved the next i'm the guy everybody loved. The next, I'm the guy everybody loves to hate. So he's arrested.

And initially, he was charged with first degree murder. Wow. Yeah. Later, they bring, so he would have faced the death penalty if they would have. Holy shit. Yeah. How did they get to first degree murder, though? So because of Maude what's her butt story

what's her name maude delmont maude delmont immediately went to the police and said i saw i saw him do it i saw him rape her he did this to her and so the they arrest him he actually turns himself in sure and they charge him with first degree murder. Prosecution starts trying to put together a case. And they realize very quickly that Ma Delmont is not going, they're not going to be able to put her on the witness stand. She's not a reliable witness. Her story changes every time they ask her. And then they look into her background.

She has a history of blackmail. And they're like, okay, great. So they drop the charges to, I've totally lost my place here. One second. I didn't know that was something you could charge someone with. So they lower the charges to manslaughter. But that still carried a possible 10-year prison sentence. Wow.

still carried a possible 10-year prison sentence wow he the world's view the country's view of this funny man this comedian that everybody loved had completely changed he was no longer like the roly-poly good-natured funny man he was the 350 pound man that crushed a woman to death oh yeah roscoe's trial began in november of 1921 the prosecution said that um virginia raps bladder had ruptured when roscoe arbuckle had attempted to rape her or had raped her really i mean yeah medically yeah okay yeah yeah we're gonna find out that that's a real problem but the prosecutor was all in on this theory this sounds like a guy who's really bad at women's anatomy right yeah um but the defense attorney was like okay this clearly it cannot be the case one thing that worked really strongly in roscoe's favor was that menta was there like every day of the trial with

him yeah in support they were not together at this time but she had visited him when he was in jail before he had made bail and she said roscoe i just i have one question to ask please don't be angry but i must know were you in any way responsible for virginiaapp's death? And Roscoe said, Minty, I swear to God, I never touched that girl like they said I did. And that's all Minty needed to hear. She believed him. And so she was right there supporting him every day.

The prosecution started their case with their first witness, a nurse named Grace Halston. This woman was convinced of roscoe's guilt and she stood there and she glared at him or sat there from on the stand and glared at him she testified that rap had bruises all over her body that her organs were torn in a way that suggested force and that her death had to have been caused by an extreme amount of external force on her body on cross-examination how did she know that right yes exactly first of all it's 1921 second of all she's a nurse did she do an autopsy like is she qualified to do an autopsy i don't think so i don't think so either so on cross-examination roscoe's defense attorney is

like um couldn't a ruptured bladder been caused by cancer you know lots of different things and she admits yes that's true and they also get her her to admit that the bruises on Virginia's body were more consistent with a fall in a bathroom than being crushed to death. There were no outward signs of trauma on Virginia Rapp's body. When they initially took her to the hospital, the doctors like there's there's no sign of any kind of sexual assault here at all wow yeah a doctor testified that the um bladder seemed to have been injured from force inflicted on the outside of her body so this is the doctor that examined her in the hospital at i'm sorry not in the hospital at the hotel this is dr beardsley he's like the hotel doctor and he said yep it looks to me like her bladder was injured from force from an outside force

but on cross-examination he said that rap hadn't said anything to him indicating that she'd been assaulted in any way so she was in and out coherent at some times when she was seen by this doctor and she never said get him away he's the one that did this to me she never made any claims that anybody had done anything to her um and he also said that he believed that she probably could have been, her life could have been saved had she had surgery to repair her bladder in time. And so Roscoe's defense attorney was like, then let me ask you this, Dr. Beardsley. If you saw evidence that Ms. Rapp would benefit from surgery. Why didn't you send her for surgery? Absolutely.

He said, I don't have an answer for that. That's literally what he said. I have no answer for that. What? Yeah. Is it just like he found out how she died after the fact and thought, oh, well, in retrospect, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. Okay.

Yeah. The prosecution called some people who had been at the party one woman said that she about an hour after the alleged rape she saw roscoe they're looking very relaxed showing no signs of remorse or anything like that and had no concern over the condition of virginia rep But on cross-examination, she said that Roscoe didn't seem the least bit intoxicated at all. She wasn't sure that he'd had anything to drink.

And then also said that she admitted that she had been coerced by the prosecution to testify against Roscoe Arbuckle. She admitted this on the stand? Whoa. They had threatened to imprison her if she would not testify against Roscoe Arbuckle. What the fuck? Yep. Gosh, you gotta throw that, just throw it out.

You gotta throw that whole case out, right? Yeah. So they bring, the defense brings forth another witness who had to sign a statement saying that she had heard virginia claim that he killed her that he that's that she heard virginia raps say those words in reference to roscoe arbuckle and then when she came forward at the trial she said that never happened the prosecution forced me to sign that affidavit oh my gosh yeah i feel like at this point we should have our little disclaimer where we say the vast majority of rape allegations are true absolutely we should say absolutely here is what is so interesting to me about this case or what not interesting the victim is not the one

who made the rape allegation yeah ever she never made an allegation of rape yeah it was somebody else who was there that made the only allegation of it ever and it led to these charges against fatty arbuckle that's unreal it is unreal yeah um a criminologist came forward who said that he saw he was an expert in fingerprints and he examined fingerprints found at the scene again it's 1920 and that he found a fingerprint of arbuckles that was laid perfectly over a fingerprint of virginia's and it showed that she had been trying to exit the door and that he had placed his hand over hers and closed the door so that she could not get away.

That is bullshit. It is such bullshit. Yes. The defense put on a witness, the house cleaner or the housekeeper at the hotel who was like i clean i dusted that door at least five times between when this incident supposedly took place and when they dusted for fingerprints there's no way that those came from inside that hotel room give me a break yeah exactly. Exactly lined up. Yes.

Come on. On Monday, November 28th, the defense called Roscoe Arbuckle to the stand. He was ready to go. He wanted to get out there. He wanted to tell his story. He was accused of the most terrible crime that he could imagine. And he had to set the record straight. He had to let the public know that this was not true. This was not him.

He didn't do anything that he was accused of doing. All he had done was try and help this woman, this friend of his. Yeah. And then it had turned into this crazy thing. And so this is the exchange between Roscoe Arbuckle and his defense attorney when he's on the stand. So his defense attorney began, Mr. Arbuckle, where were you on September 5th, 1921?

He said, I was at the St. Francis, occupying rooms 1219, 1220 and 1221. Did you see Miss Virginia Rapp that day? Yes, sir. And what time and where did you see her? She came into room 1220 at about noon. The questioning continued and Roscoe kind of listed off some of the people that were at the party. He talked about how he was going to go give his friend May a ride into town and that when he went into the bathroom to get dressed, that's when he discovered Virginia on the floor in pain. So this is what he continued. This is how his statement continued on the stand. He said, when I walked into 1219, I closed and locked the door.

And I went straight to the bathroom and found Ms. Rapp on the floor in front of the toilet. She'd been vomiting. His defense attorney said, and what did you do? He said, when I opened the door, it struck her. And I had to slide, I had to kind of slide in to get in and get by her and then get a hold of her. Then I closed the door and I picked her up. And when I picked her up, she vomited again. So I held her so that she could continue to vomit.

And when she was finished, I put the seat down on the toilet and I sat her on it. Can I do anything for you? I asked her. And she said she wanted to lie down. So I picked her up and carried her into room 1219 and put her on the bed. I lifted her feet from the floor. I went to the bathroom again, and then I came back dressed two or three minutes later. And I found her rolling on the floor between the two beds, holding her stomach. I tried to pick her up, but I couldn't.

I immediately went out of 1219 into 1220, where the party was going on, and asked Mrs. Delmont, her friend, and another woman, Miss Prevon, who is one of the women who said she was coerced by the prosecution into signing an affidavit. I asked them to come in. I told them that Miss Rapp was sick. At this point, he denied ever having put his hand over Virginia's hand on the door. He also told how at one point she'd become frantic and started like tearing at her clothing. And then he said that he had called his friend Fred Fischbach into the room. And when he came in, they had decided that they wanted to go put her in the tub and cool her down and see if that would help.

And so they did that. And when they carry after that, when they carried her back to the bed, her friend Maude started like rubbing her down with ice. At that point, Roscoe tried to put a blanket over Virginia. And Maude like spoke rudely to him, yelled at him or something. And he was upset because he's like, I'm trying to deal with this fucking situation. Yeah. So he yelled at her.

He said, if you don't shut up, I'm throw you out the window well yeah and so he was like i think that's important because he's admitting like maybe i didn't handle the situation the best i did i i yelled at someone like whatever i but you know i don't know how to handle this situation any more than anybody else and so at that point he finished like kind of his version of what had happened. And then he was cross examined by the district attorney. And the district attorney says, what time did you say Ms. Rapp entered your room? And he said, around noon. And the district attorney says, and you had known her before then?

And he said, yeah, for about five or six years. And he at that point, Roscoe admitted that he'd had some a couple of drinks over that weekend, but he had never been intoxicated during that whole time. And then at this point, they took a recess in the middle of his testimony. And when they came back, and I don't understand really how this happened. But the prosecution was allowed to bring in some new evidence and kind of like lay that out and then continue their questioning and among that evidence that they brought in was virginia raps ruptured bladder oh what yeah oh god just the bladder just the bladder brought it into the courtroom as a piece of evidence whoa yikes yeah i assume it was like in a jar preserved i don't really know how big are bladders i don't know

like that size i'm picturing like a balloon that's burst yeah wow that's bizarre. Yeah, super bizarre. So they just kind of, like, set that to the side, and they continue asking him questions. Yeah. Yeah. And so they're really trying to, like, fluster him by having that there. They're, like, you know, asking him questions over and over again, trying to get him to kind of change his story. But he doesn't. He tells it the same way every time. And so the DA is like, well, did you tell the hotel manager

what had caused Ms. Rapp's sickness? And he said, no, how should I have known what caused her sickness? And the prosecutor says, you didn't tell anybody that you found her in the bathroom? And Roscoe says, well, no, I mean, I guess nobody asked me. And he said, and you didn't tell her that, or you didn't tell anyone that you found her between the beds? And he said, again, nobody asked me. I mean, I'm telling you. And he said, you never said anything to anybody except that Miss Rapp was sick.

And he said, no. Yeah, that's all I said. And he's like, not even the doctor? And he's like, no. Told him she was sick. Yeah. Like, I don't under, what point are you trying to make here, sir? Like, I didn't know what was wrong with her.

I knew she was sick, and that's all I knew. Huh. At the end of his questioning, he stepped down and he felt, it was like you could see the relief on him that he'd finally gotten to tell his side of the story. And everybody thought, like, this was great for the defense. Like, he had come off great. He'd stood up well. Even when he admitted that he wanted to throw one lady for the defense. Like he had come off great. He stood up well. Even when he admitted that he wanted to throw one lady out the window. Yes.

So next, the prosecution and the defense both put on expert witnesses to talk about the bladder. And all four of the experts agreed. Or I'm sorry, both of the experts agreed on four points the bladder was ruptured yeah there was evidence in the tissue the chronic inflammation there were signs of acute infection and um that an examination failed to reveal any pathological change in the vicinity of the tear preceding the rupture. What does that mean? The rupture was not caused by external force. Yeah.

Both sides agreed to that? Both sides agreed to that. Well, then why are we even here? Right. Exactly. Exactly. The defense was like, Woo! that is great news for us we have definitely just won this case right we are done getting out of here thank you jerry have a great day but

the prosecution wasn't done they were gonna make sure that the jury really thought this over and really thought about what kind of person Roscoe Arbuckle was. I thought you said, thank you, Jerry. No, Jerry. I thought so too. Wait, who's Jerry? Jerry. In the prosecution's closing argument, they said, this big, kind-hearted comedian, did he say, get a doctor for this suffering girl? No.

He said, shut up or I'll throw you out a window. Okay. Well. But he was not content to stop at throwing her out the window. But he didn't throw her out the window. He attempted to make a sport with her by placing ice on her body. This man, then and there, proved himself guilty of this offense. This act shows you the mental makeup of roscoe arbuckle well and everyone else who thought that ice was doing that exactly that's a weak case yeah weak case my friend um in contrast the

defense was like hey you guys clearly this is a deliberate conspiracy against my client this case is the shame of san francisco find your words witness after witness has perjured themselves on the stand yeah who are you gonna believe the only person who brought this allegation wasn't and they did they pointed that out the only person who brought this allegation did not testify at this trial ask yourself what that means. So the first trial ended on December 4th, 1921 after 43 hours of deliberation with a hung jury. Wow.

They voted 10 to 2 in favor of acquittal. Wow. One holdout reportedly told the others that she would never change her mind wow a woman was allowed on the jury oh yeah it was men and women wow but she california's always been progressive but she told the her fellow jurors that she would never change her mind because she had decided arbuckle was guilty when she had heard that he was been he had been arrested well then she should never be yeah really so immediately the prosecution tried him again uh-huh

um but this time they would have to do it without those witnesses who they had they'd right they did not testify this time um i'm shocked they decided to go again uh yeah but the defense got real cocky about the case that they had put on oh no they called someone who'd said that she had you know had been forced to testify and that she had in fact lied at the previous trial and said that she had not heard virginia rapp ever accuse Roscoe Arbuckle of hurting her. And then they also called that original fingerprint witness, the expert, the fingerprint expert. The defense called him? The defense called him.

And he said, yeah, I'm pretty sure that those fingerprints were placed there. Then that was faked. Wow. Yeah. But besides that, they put on no defense. They didn't even offer a closing argument. What the fuck? They felt so sure that the prosecution's case was lacking.

They never put Roscoe on the stand. Why? Why would you do that? Because they got really cocky. This time, the jury deadlocked again well i bet they did but in a 10 to 2 in favor of conviction wow and so the defense was like oh fuck we really screwed that up that was almost real real real bad. My God. Yeah.

So Roscoe Arbuckle was tried a third time. Tell me he fired his defense. How many times can you get tried? Well, if it ends in a hung jury, they can continue. Just keep going? Yeah. Yeah, because it's not double jeopardy if you get a hung jury. Yeah, if you've not been convicted. If you've not been convicted and you've not been acquitted.

If it ends in a mistrial, a hung jury, they can keep going forever. Crazy. Yeah. So this time they put Roscoe on the stand. He tells the story and he actually allows the defense to call some witnesses that he had not allowed them to call before. So he had asked his defense attorneys not to call anybody who would testify negatively about Virginia Rapp. So she had this reputation of being promiscuous and entering into prostitution when she couldn't make ends meet and stuff like that. And at his first

two trials, he had not allowed them to call any witnesses who would testify that he thought it was inappropriate to do that about someone who had died. died well and it's not relevant right it so it comes down to the damage to her body okay that was where the relevance comes in yes um had she had multiple abortions had she sustained significant damage to her body that could have explained the rupturing of her bladder okay and i think that was finally the point that the defense called those witnesses and said yes she'd had i don't know five abortions or something and whatever but roscoe had fought against that for his first two trials and then by the third one he's like i guess if that's what has to happen for yeah yeah for the truth then i guess i guess that's what will happen this time

the jury deliberated for five minutes what four minutes of which were spent writing this statement and they came back with an acquittal. This statement that they wrote said, Oh, wow. under the evidence, for there was not the slightest proof to connect him in any way with the commission of a crime. He was manly throughout the case and told a straightforward story on the witness stand, which we all believed. The happening at the hotel was an unfortunate affair for which Arbuckle, so the evidence shows, was in no way responsible. was in no way responsible. We wish him success and hope that the American people will take the judgment of 14 men and women

who have sat listening for 31 days to evidence that Roscoe Arbuckle is entirely innocent and free from all blame. Wow. Yeah. So it took them one minute to acquit him. So they just went in there like... And four minutes to write

that statement that's amazing and then they came out and after they delivered that statement they each stepped down from the jury box and all went up to roscoe and either shook his hand or hugged him and apologized to him wow yeah but now i'm like cringing because this this ruined him his life was ruined by it um he was blacklisted in hollywood yeah um like at that time there were actual blacklists oh not just no it was not just a thing people say he was actually physically put on a blacklist following his acquittal it wasn't until after his acquittal that he was put on this list. And then they eventually reversed it, but the damage had been done.

He was, at that point, at the end of his third trial, he owed over $700,000 in legal fees, which adjusted for inflation, is over $10 million. He had to sell his houses, all of his cars he was left with he should have been like hey that's second trials on you guys right yeah he was left with essentially

nothing sure no coupon for the third trial right yeah buy two get one free this one's on us buddy and his like i said his career never rebounded. He and Minty divorced. He did eventually work behind the lens directing under a pseudonym for a while. And he enjoyed that. He had a really great time with that, but he really missed performing. Yeah. And he married a couple more times and found some happiness there. But when he was 46 years old, he signed a new movie deal with, I believe it was Warner Brothers.

Like they were going to relaunch his career. He was going to have this great comeback. And then one night he went out to celebrate that deal and celebrate the one-year anniversary with his wife. Brandy. He had a great night out on the town. Brandy. And then that night he went to bedyear anniversary with his wife. Brandy. He had a great night out on the town. Brandy. And then that night he went to bed and died in his sleep.

Oh. He never got to have that new start. Holy shit. Yeah. So he is often remembered as the man who raped a girl with a coke bottle the man who crushed a woman to death and none of these things are true god that is so it is so sad buster keaton said that he believed that roscoe never got over the accusations against him. Yeah.

And that he died of a broken heart. I mean, how could you get over it? Yeah. Yeah. That's the really sad story of Roscoe Fatty Arbuckle. I've got a sad one, you do i just think that's i think that when people hear fatty arbuckle they're like oh yeah that's that guy that crushed that woman to death like i think that that's the little tidbit that people remember and it's not true hang on i

want to look up pictures of him while you guys do that i have some uh some uh factual updates oh factual about the size of the bladder size of the bladder two to six inches oh my that's way smaller than i would have obviously it grows as it fills with yeah piss piss why do you say piss like that uh also abortion yeah in the early 1900s was a felony in every state. I thought it was illegal, yeah. I was wondering if it was one of those things where nobody talks about it. Yeah. According to Wikipedia, some states included provisions allowing for abortion in limited circumstances,

generally to protect the woman's life or to terminate pregnancies arising from rape or incest. Well, because that's one of the, the reason I thought that that was illegal, because that's one of the theories on the Black Dahlia, is that she was killed by a doctor who she was receiving an illegal abortion from. Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah. Virginia was gorgeous. Yeah.

However, abortions continued to occur and became increasingly available. And by the 1930s, licensed physicians performed an estimated 800,000 abortions a year. Yeah, like, isn't the statistic like one in three women have had an abortion? I mean, it's going to happen whether people want it to or not. Yeah, exactly. Hot take. Same with drinking and prostitution. It's going to happen whether people want it to or not. Yeah, exactly. Hot take. Same with drinking and prostitution. It's going to happen.

I'm drinking right now. No, I'm not. Take it away. Brandy, this is one that I'm shocked you have not done. Is it an all-time kidnapping? It is. It is. Oh, my gosh.

Can you guess what it is? I bet it's one that you have thought seriously about doing okay but just didn't do for whatever reason okay because like there's like one kidnapping you haven't done there is and it's this one one old-timey kidnapping you haven't done nothing comes to mind right away okay okay let's see um i'm just gonna say old-timey disclaimer you guys know what i'm not even gonna say it i to say, old-timey disclaimer. You guys know what I'm about to say. No, I'm not even going to say it. I'm just saying, old-timey disclaimer.

Insert old-timey disclaimer here. It was July 1st, 1874. Four-year-old Charlie Ross and his five- or six-year-old brother, Walter Ross, were playing in the front yard of their very nice home in the Germantown neighborhood of Philadelphia. When all of a sudden, two men pulled up in a buggy. They were like, hey boys, the 4th of July is right around the corner. You two look like you could use some fireworks and some candy.

And some puppies. Why don't you hop in our buggy and we'll go get some. Wow. An old tiny candy van. Yeah. It is rumored, and I think it's probably true, the notion of like strangers with candy um don't go to some stranger who has candy whatever yeah i'm just saying that two ways it comes in like if somebody that you don't know comes up to you and it's like hey do you want some candy the answer

is always no yeah someone you've never seen before comes up offers you candy don't do it don't do it so it's rumored that it comes from this okay so i got in trouble when i was like five years old did you take candy from a stranger i did so my dad yeah so my dad has always bowled my whole life and when i was a little kid i would go to the bowling alley with him and play in the arcade and stuff and while he was bowling my dad knows everyone my dad knows literally everyone especially if you're in a bowling alley there's nobody there that doesn't know my dad okay so i was like by extension no one here is a stranger uh-huh him so i'm playing in the arcade playing I really liked skeeball, really liked claw machines. I was a claw machine master. Yes, you were.

And this old man is in there and he's got these little brocks wrapped candies. They're like the little Oh Brandy, they weren't even good candies. The square Neapolitan candies. Have you seen those? Of course. Okay, so he has those. And he says, would you like one? so i'm at the bowling alley with my dad my dad knows everybody at the bowling

alley ergo no one here is a stranger uh-huh so i take the candy yeah eat it i did not die but my dad found out that i took the candy from that man and i i don't to this day i'm not sure if my dad did not know that man if he was legitimately a stranger but i got in a lot of trouble i didn't get to go to the bowling alley for weeks after that wow yeah oh i know it's not like right here they come in here on that note i'm gonna pause i have to use the bathroom but you guys can keep yeah going my thing yeah my thing now yeah i just think that's i think that's really hard i mean what kid is gonna say no to candy But you guys can keep going. That's my thing. Yeah. My thing now. Yeah, I just think that's really hard.

I mean, what kid is going to say no to candy? Yeah. I know we've all been warned, but still, it's candy. Yeah. Yeah, I did not get to go to the bowling alley with my dad for like a couple of weeks because I took candy from that guy. I wonder if my dad will remember this story. But I mean, it sounds like he was just kind of a nice old man who wanted... Maybe he wasn't. That's the thing that I don't know.

Even as an adult, I don't know if my dad did not know that man. But I'm saying maybe... Yeah, he didn't... He obviously wasn't trying to abduct me or anything. Or maybe he was. And your dad looked over and was like... Maybe! But yeah, I'm saying like...

Gosh, I don't know. I feel like you can get away with so much more, not get away with, but you can do things when you're a woman. And I just feel like if I were out in public and I had a big handful of candy and a kid was eyeballing it, well, no, I think I wouldn't give. Oh, on that note, I went to Daveave and buster's once had a whole bunch of tickets didn't want anything with the tickets yeah and so i saw this little kid and i was like i'm just gonna go up and give him these tickets yeah and so it wasn't until i like tapped this little kid on the shoulder to give him the tickets that i was like holy shit i'm a fucking stranger and like i should have asked his mom first Like, it did not even cross my mind.

I was just like, hey, little boy, would you like all these tickets? In exchange, come back to my car with me. And I apologized to his mom. I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I just realized how that sounded. I legitimately won all these tickets. Don't want anything with them. Thought your kids might enjoy them.

Yeah. And she was like, no, thank you so so much and she lowered her gun that's right she told security to back up and they uncuffed me good for you brandy yeah so the kids hop in the buggy because they're very excited about the fireworks and the candy and they actually kind of knew these guys yeah these men had come by the neighborhood a few days before and had given the boys some candy so these were you know technically not strangers great see technically so the boys got in my story ends way better than this story does.

So the boys got in the buggy, took off. They rode around. So far, by the way, I don't know this story. Okay, okay. No. I feel like you're going to. Okay. They rode around for like an hour.

They took this really weird route kind of all over the place. And finally, they pulled up to a store. And one of the men turned to five-year-old Walter and was like, hey, hey, here's 25 cents. Why don't you go into the store and get yourself some fireworks? Adjusted for inflation. Okay, the inflation calculator. Doesn't go back that far. Doesn't go back that far. So I just did 1913.

Yeah. That's like seven bucks. Yeah. So, you know. Even more. Ten back that far. It doesn't go back that far. So I just did 1913. Yeah. That's like seven bucks. Yeah. So, you know. Even more. Ten bucks? Yeah. I don't know.

Yeah. So Walter went into the store with his shiny new quarter, and he picked out some fireworks, and when he turned to leave, the buggy was gone. Oh! The two men had taken off with his little brother. Okay, that's weird. Right? Oh, nope.

They needed to leave one behind so he could tell. Um, we'll keep going, but this is weird. Okay. It's just weird. Yeah. Maybe they were trying to send a message. But no, they also left somebody behind who could identify them. So it is super weird. Okay. It's just weird. Yeah. Maybe they're trying to send a message. But no, they also left somebody behind who could identify them. So it is super weird.

Yeah. Hang on. Lower your mic a little, would you? I'm very hunched over currently. You're in your thinking mode. I am. I'm in my thinking. You know, you do kind of melt down when you're thinking.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because my brain's so heavy. That's right. When you're sitting erect, you're just there's no say in the world. Meanwhile, back at home, the boy's mom, Sarah Ann, I guess I shouldn't have said back at home because she was away in Atlantic City. No. She'd been ill, so she was recovering from an illness. The boys had three other sisters.

Okay. So that just left at home, like, maybe some servants, I think, and then the boy's father, Christian. And Christian had assumed... That Norm was walking into the room. Yeah, and that he should pause his story. And Christian had just... What? I was just staring at him until he made eye contact. Quit staring at my husband, Brady.

I can't stop, Christian. He's like the little boy at Dave and Buster's. You just gotta go talk to him. Don't offer Norm candy, because he will go home. He will. He will 100% take it. He does not know how to say no. Christian assumed when he didn't see his boys in the front yard that they'd just gone over to a neighbor's house to play.

No big deal. Yeah. But after a while, you know, they didn't come home. the buggy with these two strange men, went over to Christian and was like, hey, hey, just so you know, I saw Charlie and Walter get into a buggy with these two guys earlier. And Christian obviously freaked out. Both of his boys had been taken and no one knew where they were. Wow. And no one knew where they were. Wow. Meanwhile, at the fireworks slash candy store, little Walter was alone and sobbing.

Yeah. Some people noticed, but obviously no one knew the gravity of the situation. They just thought, oh, this little guy, he got lost. We need to get him home. So they took him back home. And obviously Christian was relieved and hopeful. He had one son back. Maybe he'd get the other one too soon. Not too soon. Too soon. As well. As well. You know, maybe little Charlie was somewhere around. Before they had time to kill him.

Before they had time to kill him. But then Walter started talking. He told his father what he knew. That two men had lured them away from home. This was so shocking that Christian, and I think at this point there were some other adult relatives in the home. They didn't know what to do. So my understanding is that they didn't do anything oh for a while then two days later christian received a ransom letter they didn't do anything for two days that's my understanding oh i don't know if they were holding out hope

that like charlie would come home the same way walter did or you know i mean this was before the telephone right yeah i mean this was i don't know norm norm when was the telephone invented i want to say the 1880s did you know how that's how alexander graham bell wanted people to answer the phone really ahoy i wish we did. I know! The telephone was invented March 10th, 1876. Okay, so this is 1874. So if it was invented in 76, you know, it took a while for everybody to get it. Well, yeah, you got to get the infrastructure up and all that. Brandy, I know you're thinking that everyone had one immediately. I'm confused by what you just said.

The kidnapping was in 1874. Right. And if it was invented in 1876. It had not been invented yet. Right. Yes. Why are you confused? I have to go again.

My stomach is like. What? My stomach's killing me. Oh my gosh. I'm sorry. Okay. Norm, this is unprecedented on the podcast. Norm, this is unprecedented on the podcast.

You know, I hate to brag, but, you know, I have my potty breaks, but I only have one per episode. I've never shit my pants on the podcast. Hey, neither have I. So, two days later, Christian receives this ransom letter. And it's weird. I mean, there are misspellings. And when I say misspellings, I mean like words you wouldn't think could be misspelled or misspelled. Okay.

And the handwriting was super weird. So I read a bunch of old timey articles, obviously put together by somebody who was illiterate. Yes. But also like in the old timey articles, you know, this was back when everyone was required to write with their right hand. So the articles were like, it looked as though someone were trying to write with their left hand.

And I'm like, some of us do that. But anyway, it looked like someone was using their opposite hand to write this letter and they were illiterate. Okay, here's what the ransom letter says. Tell me. Tell me everything.

It said um, it starts with an um. Well, I'm thinking of how I want to do this. I'm going to lift my finger every time a word is misspelled and i want you to say ding okay just so i just want the listeners to know what a mess this thing is mr ross be not uneasy you son ding charlie bruster brewster he all right we as got him and no powers on earth can deliver out of our hand you will have to pay for us before you get him from us and pay us a big cent too if you put the cops hunting for him you is only defeating you own end oh my god we is got him fit so no living power can get him from us a live a live is two words if any approach is made to his hiding place that is the signal for his instant annihilation and you know they couldn't spell that. If you regard his life, puts no one to search for him, you money can fetch him out alive

and no other existing powers don't deceive yourself and think the detectives can get him from us for that is one impossible. Ooh, the spelling on that. You hear from us in few day. Ding. Hoo. Yes. It's a mess.

It's a mess. How are they spelling you? They misspelled it every time. Why you? Phonetically, they're just... You're defending these kidnappers so one one source i saw said that the initial ransom letter demanded 4 000 british pounds no one else said that though everyone else seems to agree that these kidnappers wanted 2020,000. Okay.

A few days later, another one of these ransom letters comes. It's written in this same, like, bizarre style. So, you know, even though the writing wasn't super clear, the kidnappers, the message was clear. The message was clear, yes. They did not want police involved. They wanted the money. And in return for the money, they'd give Charlie back. Easy peasy. He was not being harmed.

He was totally fine. But he was hidden for sure. And you better not come at us with the police. And it will result in his certain annihilation. Darn right. But it wasn't that simple. So Christian and Sarah Ann wanted to comply with these orders. Yeah.

And I personally believe that if they'd had the money, they totally would have. They just didn't have the money? No. So they were in this weird spot where they had this super nice house. It was very well maintained. House rich cash floor. Yeah. They had this dry goods store, so it seemed like they were doing well.

But it's funny. We talked about this last week. There was an economic recession in like 1873. So they were actually in debt, even though they looked like they were doing great. So they were in no position to pay the ransom money, and that's why they had to call the police. Wow. Because they couldn't work with the ransom. Yeah. So Christian reached out to the police, and soon this became national news.

Quick thing about this case. Kidnappings had obviously happened before. Ransoms had happened before. This is the first U.S. kidnapping that became widespread news. This became huge. that became widespread news. This became huge. So at this point, Sarah Ann was still in Atlantic City,

and Christian hadn't really known what to do about the fact that one of their sons was missing, and he didn't want to upset her. He didn't tell her, and she found out on the newspaper? Yeah. Oh! Yeah, that's how she found out yeah horrible oh no people all across the nation became obsessed with this story the pinkerton detective agency which you mentioned in a couple cases ago. This was back when they were actually really good at their jobs.

Yes. Swooped in to help. They created tons of posters with an artist's rendering of Charlie's little face. Wikipedia says they created millions of posters. That's bullshit. It's thousands. I mean, come on. It's the 1800s.

Yeah. Someone wrote a song about the crime, and it became a hit. It was called Bring Back Our Darling. You can sing it for us? Yeah. Someone wrote a song about the crime, and it became a hit. It was called Bring Back Our Darling. You can sing it for us? I'd have to make it up. Bring back our darling. That's Kristen Caruso with her latest hit.

That song that's racing up the charts. Bring back our darling. We suspect he's died by now. No! He was born in, like, the 1870s. This whole time, the kidnappers continued to send messages. And they worked out a system where Christian would respond to their ransom letters in the personal column of the Philadelphia Ledger. And so police basically had this strategy. They always wanted to appear willing to negotiate because they wanted the kidnappers to communicate with them as much as possible in the hopes that at some point they'd screw up.

They'd reveal where they were, all that stuff. OK. They'd reveal where they were, all that stuff. Yep. Okay. But the kidnappers, even though they weren't super literate, they seemed kind of smart. Okay. Because they were not taking the bait. Big fan of the kidnappers, are you?

No. No, I'm not. I'm just saying they weren't falling for any tricks. Meanwhile, people were obsessed with this case. Meanwhile, people were obsessed with this case. Everyone knew that this cute little boy had been abducted. And they knew exactly how much the kidnappers wanted. Everyone knew.

$20,000. And they also knew that the Rosses couldn't afford to pay it. So they did an old-timey GoFundMe. That's exactly what they did. Yeah. So, and at one point even, so they raised the money. And then I saw also that the city of Philadelphia offered $20,000 to reward anyone who could help with the arrest of the kidnappers. This was a big, big thing, but really it was kind of good and bad that everyone was super interested in the case because everyone was just so eager to help yeah but all they had

to go on was the word of a five-year-old so little walter did his best and he told what details he could remember he said that the kidnappers rode in a black buggy pulled by a dark brown horse one of the men was large about 35 years old which i'm like a kid has no idea he's 73 years old yeah exactly little kids have no idea no and i'm i'm wondering if maybe how old is walter like five or six yeah i bet if i asked jack right now how old i am he would have no idea and why would he yeah i'm wondering if it was like a combination of what walter had seen plus maybe i don't know if that neighbor got a good look at these strange men but maybe the combination of the what i'm not

doing anything weird i'm sorry you totally were at first you guys i'm making weird to act like you didn't do it and you thought i wouldn't notice you're right you're right you guys i was making weird hand gestures again story of my life anyway brady one guy was about 35 stop it he had a full beard and a mustache and he wore a ring on his right hand. So, there you go. Go find him. Yeah. The other man was skinnier, younger, had a mustache, and a fat red face.

Both of them wore dusters, which those are like the long overcoats, right? Yeah, long overcoat. With straw hats, which doesn't seem like the right combination yeah one of them wore goggles as a disguise i'm picturing like those riding goggles yeah and like scuba goggles maybe probably some old-timey scoop you know the one window. Walter said that one of the men had a monkey nose. The fuck's a monkey nose? Exactly. What the hell is a monkey nose?

Remember it, folks. Just hold on to your straw hat and remember monkey nose. What? Do you have a theory? No. What? But that's what i so my oliver my bulldog yeah i i say he has a gorilla nose because they're just something about his nose that looks like a gorilla's but i couldn't even tell you what it is i can't wait till we get to the relevant part of this story

how you feeling norm glad to have you back it's been a few minutes you look sweaty I can't wait till we get to the relevant part of this story. How you feeling, Norm? Glad to have you back. It's been a few minutes. You look sweaty. Yeah. I think that energy drink took me down. Hey, good thing it didn't have any caffeine.

Am I right? You two feel fine, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think it's the lunch. It's gotta be the energy drink. Yeah. You guys, the gaming historian is dying, and... No, I'm not dying.

I'm okay now. You say that. You died of dysentery. You felt like dysentery. Although I've never had dysentery, but... It just hit me. Anyway, continue. Okay.

Immediately, all kinds of tips started coming in, and most of them were useless. There was one that sounded kind of good, though. Apparently, on the day after Walter and Charlie were taken, a man in Trenton, New Jersey sold a horse and buggy that matched the exact description. But no one could remember exactly what he looked like, and that tip kind of fizzled out. Well, didn't all the horse and buggies look alike? Oh, you're saying all horses look the same?

Okay. I'm just saying, there's lots of dark brown horses, lots of black buggies. Actually, pink was really the color. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I mean, that sounds like he was tall. He wore t-shirts sometimes. It's anybody.

Months went by. The kidnappers continued to send ransom letters. And for the most part, their message stayed the same. Charlie's safe, but he's well hidden, so you're never going to find him. We want 20 grand. Give us the money and we'll return him safely. him we want 20 grand give us the money and we'll return him safely christian and sarah ann worked with the police on the negotiations oh he's let sarah and ann in on it now yeah i meant well you know what it took forever to find her name anywhere i had to like it wasn't until i

found an article from the 1960s that I found her name. Everywhere else it was Christian and his wife and his wife and his wife. Wow. I bet the gaming historian's wife really hated that. Shut up! You know that's exactly what it is! I've had too many years of being so-and-so's wife, so I'm like, fuck no. No way am I calling her Christian's wife.

That's exactly it. Okay, I have to tell you the truth. So, I texted you today and was like, could you come over like half an hour later? Yeah. The reason I needed you to come over half an hour later was because i hadn't found out this woman's name yet and i had to find her name okay so several times it looked like they were actually going to do this exchange yeah but every time the kidnappers backed out wow every time they had the plan just meticulously laid out. They had this plan for

where to leave the money. They had time built in for the kidnappers to thoroughly examine every bill, make sure they weren't marked or anything. Christian, every time, agreed that he would go by himself to a remote location. He would wait as long as the kidnappers wanted him to wait, and he would be the one to take his son. But it never materialized. But it never happened. Snack break. Kiki, snack break. Is this on the bingo card? She's just like you. I wish I was going on the snack break. Norman, you lost a couple pounds there.

Yeah, I'd say about six pounds. Illegal dumping. Did you accidentally mix up your energy drink and your colon blow? You know, I get them mixed up all the time, Brandy. I think that's what it is we shouldn't keep them in the same cabinet the bags look too similar classic mix up you know they're both delicious i love them so the first time i went down, nothing happened.

And I was like, maybe just some cramps, whatever. As soon as I sat down again, it like attacked me. Norman, keep in mind, this is a classy show, okay? Oh, is it? No, no. Kristen told a story about shitting in a bag on this podcast. Yeah, I was going to say, didn't you poop in a bag? That was really more of an arty story. It was kind of an arty take about shitting in a bag on this podcast. Yeah, I was going to say, didn't you poop in a bag? That was really more of an arty story.

It was kind of an arty take on shitting in a bag. Peanut cried. Kind of an emotional tale when you put it that way. A harrowing tale of survival. So, of course, you know, as it always is with these stories, every Bob Moss got a talking to, every sketchy dude got a talking to. Police were trying to track down these kidnappers any way possible. At one point, police got super excited because they found this guy who had been robbing all these houses in that neighborhood.

Uh-huh, yeah. Surely he'd taken the kid, too. Yeah. No. No, it turns out he was just a robber, just a general. He's like, hey, man, I just take things. I don't take kids. I don't take people.

A strict no people policy. More of a lone wolf. Then they found out that a whole bunch of weirdos who'd been in the neighborhood around the time of the kidnapping. It was a group of five men and one woman. And they'd gone up to all these houses and started asking all these weird questions like, Who lives here? Do you rent or own? And the police were like, that's sketchy. Yeah, they asked if they were going to be home for Christmas.

Are you thinking the home alone? And after the kidnapping, they'd all left the area. So police were like, alright. They spent forever trying to track these people down and eventually they did. So here's the bad news there. Turns out they owned a tree and shrub business. Oh, no.

They were just looking for business. Yes. Yeah, they were just, like, going to see who owned what house and, you know, if they could do some landscaping. Oh, no. So detectives were chasing their tails, and at the same time, they were trying to communicate with the kidnappers through the newspaper. Then, one day, in Bennington, Vermont, they found Charlie Ross. No! Yes.

Alive? He was traveling with a woman, a woman who he referred to as his new mama how do they know it's him when questioned skeptical brandy is skeptical your eyebrows he said that he was from germantown pennsylvania mm-hmm and that his real name was Charlie Ross. But his new mama had changed his name. Detectives were flipping the fuck out. They were overjoyed.

This was amazing news. Immediately, one of Charlie's uncles hauled ass to Vermont to take the boy home. It's not him. It's not him. I'm not buying this. There's no fucking way it's him. Yeah, it wasn't the Charlie.

Okay, this is, this is. It was a Charlie Ross? This is nuts. Hold on to your pants. I'd just like to point out that I'm not the one that said this is nuts. The way you always say it is,

is this not nuts? You say, is that not fucking nuts? Okay, first of all, I don't make a face like that when I say it. You like do this with your head. I'm bobbing my head, guys. Okay, this kid was the right age. He matched the physical description of Charlie Ross.

And he hadn't even been lying. He had been newly adopted. So the woman with him was his new mama and he was from Germantown but his name was Charlie Huss oh my god and I don't know if it was like he was like four and his pronunciation wasn't quite quite right or if the people were so excited that they just heard what they wanted to hear yeah but yeah it wasn't it wasn't quite right, or if the people were so excited that they just heard what they wanted to hear. But yeah, it wasn't the right boy. I knew it. Can you believe that, though?

Ugh. But this wasn't the only time that Charlie was spotted. People all over the place were wanting to help. So Charlies were spotted in canada in denver in italy in cuba charlie was all over the place vietnam i didn't see vietnam but hey maybe you know then what what am I missing something? Yeah. What am I missing? What am I missing?

That's what they call the enemy in Vietnam. Oh. Charlie, have you seen Forrest Gump? It's Charlie all around us. Charlie's all around us. Oh, I never understood that. I've never understood it. Is this like how it took me like 15 years to realize that jenny had aids well if they don't know by now some people haven't seen forest

you know what he also gets shot directly in the buttocks so so i jumped up and bit him, actually. So then, in August of 1874, something happened. A great rascal and coward named Clinton Mosher told police that his brother, William Mosher, and his brother's super sketchy friend, Joseph Douglas, had asked him to help them with a crime. This sounds like a real lead. Skeptical Brandy is less skeptical. The eyebrows are separated now. They are up, feeling good.

They wanted to kidnap one of the Vanderbilt kids. They wanted to kidnap one of the Vanderbilt kids. So Clinton gave police enough information about William and Joe to indicate that these could be the guys who had also kidnapped Charlie Ross. And initially, police were able to compare William Mosher's handwriting to that of the ransom notes. And it seemed like a match. Exact details on what he told the police in this kind of initial interview are kind of unclear, but the bottom line is that he definitely pointed to his brother and the brother's friend as like,

hey, pretty sure these are the guys who did it. So police started looking into this. They talked to some locals in Philly, and they found out that, sure enough, William and Joseph had been in the area at the time of the kidnapping. They'd lived together in a small house on Monroe Street. Shout out to Philly.

I don't know where on Monroe Street, but maybe you live on Monroe right now, and you're like, oh, my God. Maybe you live in that house. And people said that William had had a wife and a child with him. Great. So now all they had to do was find William and Joe.

Yes. But where the hell were they? I don't know. Neither did they. For months, detectives went all over the place trying to find these two. And it was so frustrating because multiple times they came like really, really close to catching them. Like sometimes within a day,

sometimes within just a couple of hours. But somehow these guys were always just like one step ahead of the police. What do you suspect? I don't know. Turns out They had a guy on the inside

I was gonna say there's a mole Yep William's wife Had a brother Named William Westervelt Too many Williams I know I know It's a mess

They only had like three names Back then This fucking cat I know This cat is a mess You know usually you guys back then. This fucking cat. I know. This cat is a mess. You know, usually you guys talk about Kiki

doing something cute. She's just a little hellion today. She is. Now she wants to play with toys. She wants to eat. When she's just being adorable

it's fine, but when she's making noise. William Westervelt was a former police officer. I think he'd been fired for kind of being a sketchball. But, you know, he was allowed to be on this search team because

he was just being super helpful. Great. Uh-huh. So he was passing along all this information to the kidnappers. Yeah. It would have been really handy if he had a phone he could have just called him i bet he had to i bet i bet he had to like run down there right sweating listeners what let's get together let's start saying let's bring back ahoy i mean people only text now

listener homework next time you answer the phone, answer it ahoy. So police are working like crazy to track down William and Joe and the poor police. I mean, they don't know that they're being, you know, someone's blowing up their spot every single time. Meanwhile, on November 1st of 1874. One day before your birthday. It's true. You look great for your age. Thank you.

The decomposition is barely even noticeable. The brain is really holding up nicely. Bonus points if you got that death becomes her reference. No one did. You know it was only me. Christian and Sarah Ann received another letter from the kidnappers. It was their 25th letter. Holy shit, 25 letters. And it was the last one they'd ever received.

Oh, no. Then, on December 13th, 1874 in brooklyn some places said long island i don't know enough about new york forgive me new yorkers a man woke up to an alarm bell which i'm like what kind of rudimentary this was like a home alarm system. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was it like a fire alarm? So, okay, let me,

I'll tell you. Or did he have just like a ding on his door? Here's what I'm envisioning. Yeah. I'm envisioning like some string tied to a bell

and, cause like Or just like a bag of cans. Yeah. Just like Is that like a bag of cans Yeah. Is that like a Rube Goldberg machine? So his brother who was a judge lived next door to him and he knew that his brother's

house was unoccupied. So you know you shouldn't be hearing that bell. But he also knew that like a strong wind would sometimes get that bell going so he wasn't super worried. But he looked over into like a strong wind would sometimes get that bell going. So he wasn't super worried. But he looked over into his brother's house. And in my notes, I have a light was on. A light was not on.

A lantern was on. A flame was lit. A flame was lit. And he's like, oh, shit. Someone has broken into my brother's house. The glow of the computer was clearly visible. Every light was a boy. Netflix was on.

It's a mess. I could have sworn my brother unsubscribed from Apple TV. I thought he was more of a Hulu guy. So this guy is like, whoa! And he gets everybody in his house to wake up, grabs their AK-47s or whatever he had back in the 1800s, and goes over there, guns blazing. And it turns into this old-timey shootout.

Like, pew, pew, pew, pew, pew! And at the end, when the dust had cleared, the good guys had won. William Mosher died immediately and Joseph Douglas was severely wounded. Oh, my gosh. Here's where this story gets a little iffy. Because like no one who was there that night really has the same story. But it seems like it's agreed that as Joseph Douglas lay there dying, he said that there was no point in lying anymore.

And he might as well admit that he and william had kidnapped charlie ross and so they were like okay okay yeah where is the little boy oh he's dead and joseph douglas said he couldn't give them that information because william who was dead on the floor, was the only one with that information. Charlie's dead, right? I mean, we'll get into some theories later. Okay. But the bottom line is, Joseph died two hours later. Wow.

And he claimed that Charlie was alive. He just didn't know where. Okay. Which I think is so bizarre. Yeah. All right. So police interviewed everyone who was close to these men, hoping that one of them said something to someone,

but either no one really knew or no one was saying. Yeah. But either no one really knew or no one was saying. Yeah. Meanwhile, poor little Walter Ross was taken up to the Brooklyn morgue. Oh, to identify the bodies? Yeah, to look at these dead bodies. He immediately recognized Joseph Douglas as the driver of the buggy. And he identified William as the other man.

Okay. You know how... Monkey nose. In reality, what William had is something called syphilis nose. Oh, yeah! I had never heard of this! Okay. So I was like, well, but that's an STD.

I did some brief Googling. Yeah. Horrifying image searches yeah um yeah apparently back in the day before they had good treatments syphilis could really mess up your face yeah and could result in nasal collapse have you seen these pictures yeah how do you know about this? Well, haven't you seen fucking... What? Les Mis? No, I actually haven't. So the movie version, the ladies of the night, they have this rash all over their face.

It's syphilis. It makes them look like they have rosy cheeks, but it's their syphilis. And I've heard that, yeah can the nasal collapse and all of that okay yeah so they said that this my dog also has syphilis that poor dog it's going around right now it is they said it's on the rise yep brandy uses him for breeding purposes no not's disgusting. No! Not my poor dog. So yeah, they said that it was really common for people back in the day who had bad syphilis

to wear artificial clip-on noses. Oh my gosh. Because it was such a stigma, because number one, it's an STD. And then it's right there on your fucking face. Yeah, exactly! You've got this, you know, collapsed nose. Have you Googled? I have. Google syphilis nose. It is Googled? Google syphilis nose. It is

horrifying. Yeah. Well, you know what it looks like? What? Michael Jackson's nose. Whoa. Yeah, it does, doesn't it? It really does. It really does. New theory.

Michael Jackson was from the Victorian era, and he had syphilis but back to the case yes so the two kidnappers were dead oh god would you just close this i was just looking further down the image just scroll syphilis nose so the two kidnappers were dead. Charlie was nowhere to be found. But the case couldn't just end there. Someone had to pay for this crime. And who better?

What? What? Who? Who's the only person who can? We've got one bad guy still alive and someone has to be charged. Oh my gosh. What? How do you, how do you pin this on someone else? Well, they pinned it on William Westervelt, the former police officer and current douchebag who had been tipping off William and Joseph.

So yeah, you can. Yeah. I mean, but you can't... But you're totally right. You're totally right. You're gonna see how right you are. Yeah, I mean... Okay, we'll get to it. We'll get to it. I was struggling so much with this! so you know obviously at some point he had he confessed that he knew william and joseph well and that he knew that they had kidnapped charlie ross and that at some point he talked to them about ransom money do they charge him with kidnapping yes Yes. In 1875, they charged him with kidnapping, based off of that confession. Oh.

But Christian and Sarah Ann weren't really interested in the legal side of things. I kind of wonder if the prosecution was just like, we've got to get somebody! So they were still holding out hope that their son was still alive. yeah um so they were still holding out hope that their son was still alive so as william was being held in prison i know they begged him for information they were like if you just tell us anything we will do everything we can to make sure you're pardoned for this wow and at one point even government officials implied that they would give him a full pardon if he would just talk part of me also wonders did they even want to take him to the trial or were they just trying to scare him yeah

but every time they talked to him william was like look i've told you everything i know you can threaten me with death i'm not going to tell you anything new because i don't know anything more i I know that they did it. I gave them information. We talked about ransom money. That's it. Wow. But finally, after countless interrogations, he said, tell Mr. Ross to search the Catholic institutions. And they were like, what do you mean? Yeah, it's real fucking big, buddy. And he said, orphan asylums, schools.

Search them all. You might find him. What? And they were like, well, how do you know he might be there? And he was like, I don't know. I'm just saying that's your best bet. He was like, it's just a theory. Oh, my gosh.

It's just my advice. And, you know, I would say it's not necessarily bad advice because orphan trains were a thing back then. The fuck's an orphan train? You never heard of an orphan train? Oh, my gosh. They would take kids. This was actually profitable for churches and stuff. They would take kids on trains throughout

the united states and if you wanted to adopt a kid and i mean like going to pet smart and adopting a pet you could go and just take a kid so there are some people who believe that maybe this kidnapping things got kind of weird and you know it's too much so they just put charlie ross on an orphan train and oh he could have lived out his life i mean or he could have been killed you know who knows who knows well i'm hoping us at the end of this story no maybe it'll it'll be it'll depend. It'll depend. Oh, yeah. So, with no new information, William Westervelt's trial began. What, Brandy? What? How? Well, you heard the evidence.

No! Yeah, so as you pointed out. Hey, these are old-timey cases. They'll do it. Yeah, they're probably going to hang him for it. Yeah. Like the day after. Yes!

Yeah, so as you pointed out, there wasn't a whole lot of evidence. No! Not much of a case against him. So here was the prosecution's argument. What? There's no way this guy is getting off because there's no one else there's literally no other person that they could possibly charge and the whole country wants someone to pay for this this guy's getting convicted and he's going to be killed for it well prediction okay let's see

shall we here was the prosecution's case william was kind of like the third conspirator in this kidnapping. He'd been the one handling the negotiations. He'd been dropping off the ransom letters at the post office or whatever. And you know what? Where's the proof of that? Well, don't worry about it. You know, and he knew more than he was letting on. Okay, so just shut up.

Just shut up. Can we kill him already? Handwriting experts said that some of the ransom letters were clearly William Westover's handwriting. Hmm. Or was it Westerfelt? You know, whatever. Winchesterton field. Several witnesses said that they'd seen william with a

little boy who looked a lot like charlie so what do you say to that brandy no clearly it was him third conspirator okay and walter who was now seven testified for two days this poor kid yeah and he was probably like i never seen that guy in my life yeah exactly yeah yeah so i mean this is the weirdest thing to me because he went up he testified he talked about the two men who were now dead yeah and on cross-examination the defense was like have you ever seen this guy before you ever seen william Westerfeld? And Walter was like, No! No? Like, that's because he was a

silent partner. Invisible, if you will. He was hidden in the back of the buggy. Oh my goodness. Brandy? Yeah? You are wrong. What? The evidence in this case was so bad that even an old-timey jury could not convict him on kidnapping.

But they did find him guilty of the lesser charge of conspiracy to commit kidnapping. Because he had helped him somewhat. He had aided and abetted after the fact. He was sentenced to seven years of solitary confinement. People kept thinking he would talk at some point, but he didn't. He legitimately probably did not know anything else. You know, some mob bosses, Bob Mosses,

had a theory that he had drowned the boy in the East River. I don't know. I think if anyone killed Charlie, it was one of the two guys. So William never said anything new. And when he got out of prison, he just vanished. After this kidnapping, the Ross family was never the same. Christian and Sarah Ann never stopped looking for their little boy. Together, they investigated hundreds of leads. More than 600 people came forward claiming to be Charlie Ross.

And this went on for forever. The Rosses talked to every single person. But they were all full of shit. Eventually, the Rosses ran out of money. So Christian Ross wrote a book about the kidnapping just to raise more money for the search for Charlie when that money ran out he did a reprint of the book and he went on the lecture circuit oh my goodness he searched for his son until the day he died in 1897 and sarah ann searched for him until the day she died in 1912 wow on the 50th anniversary of the kidnapping in 1924 a bunch of newspapers did stories about the

kidnapping because it had just captivated the nation they interviewed walter who was now a grown man yeah and he said that to that day, he and his three sisters still received letters from men pretending to be their long-lost brother. Then, in 1934, there was a break in the case. What? Yeah. Yeah, Brandy, shut up.

Skeptical Brandy is skeptical again. No, no, no, no, no, no. Listen to this, guys. I'm skeptical. Get ready to party. No. Charlie Ross was alive and well. No.

Hey, where's your joy? He was 69 years old. He was a carpenter, and he was living in Phoenix, Arizona. No, he wasn't. Boy, oh boy, did he have a story to tell. He remembered the whole thing. After the kidnapping, he'd been hidden in a cave. Quit looking at me like that. This is all 100% true. No. Yes, he'd been hiding in a cave for forever.

And eventually the man who adopted him said, guess what? Your name is not Gustav Blair. It's Charlie Ross. No. Nope. You were the kidnapped boy. No. But the actual Ross children, much like you two, were very skeptical.

Yeah. And Walter, Sophia, Marion, and Anne were like, this is bullshit. Mm-hmm. and Walter, Sophia, Marion, and Anne were like, this is bullshit. But that made Charlie very upset because he was the real deal. 100% no fooling, real deal. No. He was outraged, but no one was willing to acknowledge his true identity.

So he looked at himself in the mirror and he said, let's go to court. No! Yes, he did. Yes, he did. I'm sorry, I know this. For what? Go to court based on what?

He's going to sue them for his identity? This dipshit went to court and entered a claim of kinship from that point forward he wanted to be known as charles brewster ross fuck right off it took five years but eventually in 1939 the arizona court was like, sure, why not? You're Charles Brewster Ross. No. So my understanding is a huge part of this was just the fact that the actual Ross children were like, we are ignoring this. This is bullshit.

So they didn't contest anything. And I almost feel like because no one contested it, the Arizona court just went with it. Wouldn't it be great if DNA testing was a thing? Yes. You could easily prove. I just did a DNA test and it turns out that guy is 100% a fucking liar. I thought he was 100% that bitch. So the actual Ross siblings were like, this is insane.

Yeah, you've got some court order saying you're our brother, but we're not idiots. We know you are not our real brother. And guess what we're going to do? We're going to ignore the stupid court's decision because it's stupid. Yeah. Walter Ross told a newspaper that Gustav Blair is evidently just another one of the cranks who have been bothering us for the last 65 years. Wow.

The idea that my brother is still alive is not only absurd, but the man's story seems unconvincing. I feel so awful for these siblings because it's clear their parents never gave up. It became their obsession. But I think the siblings were kind of like, yeah, he's dead. He's gone. At this point, journalists started asking Charlie, quotation marks. Yeah.

So what was it like to be kidnapped? So, you know, you're you're the real Charles Brewster Ross. Are you going to get some of the family fortune? And he was like, It hadn't even occurred to me to ask. What? And they're like, well, you know, you're going to have to sue for it. They're not just going to give you the family money because they don't acknowledge you.

So he said, let's go to court a fucking gin? going to give you the family money because they don't acknowledge you. So he said, let's go to court a fucking gin? Brandy, you seem just so irritated with this man who has been through so much. He lived in a cave, Brandy. And then he had to go by Gustav. Gustav.

So they're asking him, are you going to sue? And he said, there won't be any need for that. Then, with his new 100 real identity charlie moved back to germantown he never lived in germantown he and his wife got remarried i don't know why but it was like part of his new identity so they moved from phoenix to germantown you know back to his place of birth and it was all pretty glamorous and exciting. Finally, after all these years, Charlie Ross was back home. Oh, what a tale.

Soon Hollywood came calling. There was talk of film deals. The bigwigs in radio wanted to talk to him. Would he sell his incredible story? You bet your sweet ass he would. I don't want him to get any money. Well, here's the thing. Those Ross siblings, you know, Charlie had done some great work going all the way back home to see everybody.

But they were not super welcoming. Yeah. They treated him like some weirdo. Yeah. They did not invite him over for Christmas. In fact, they treated him like he was just some guy who was pretending to be their dead brother. They didn't cut him into the will. It was like they weren't even thinking about it.

And at some point, all the talk about film deals and radio stuff all disappeared. I think a big thing was, in order for him to profit off of this, the other siblings would have to accept him in some way. So when they didn't, everything went away. But Charlie wouldn't stand for it. So he got himself an attorney. Oh, no! And he went back to court.

He'd heard that Sarah Ann Ross, Charlie's mom, had left behind, like, a $469,000 trust fund. And he wanted his share. Where's the adjustment for inflation? Oh, sorry. I was so excited I'd found her name. This was when I found her name. Forgive me, Brandy. It's a lot of money.

I'm on it. You got it? Okay. I think that, well, but you don't know what year this happened. I'll just do 1939. No, this was more like the 40s, I think. 43? 39.

39, you're right. $8.6 million. Whoa! Woo! Steep! Not too bad. So, Charlie's attorney publicly announced that they were planning to file a federal court action to get his portion of the money. His attorney said,

Before taking any further steps to prove his claim, we are waiting for some move by the Ross family. Okay. Which is code for, we don't have a claim we know we don't have a claim but we're hoping that some dumb ass just gives us money but uh the ross family didn't do shit they called their bluff and uh gustav didn't end up filing his claim, of course. Eventually, he moved back to Phoenix, and he died at the age of 73 from the flu. So, there you go. The kidnapping of Charlie Ross wasn't America's first, but it was the first one that received this kind of widespread attention. And it is believed to be the reason why we warn children not to take candy from strangers.

That was crazy. I loved that. Wasn't that nuts? Yes. I feel so sorry for that family. Walter. But I'm just so, I'm so curious about what happened to him.

Yeah. And why leave, like, why leave one kid behind? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe they felt like we're not going to get more money for two. We're overwhelmed. I don't know.

Yeah, I don't know either. It was strange. Yeah. I liked this old-timey theme. I did, too. I know we do old-timey cases a lot on here, but... They're fun. They are.

They're so fun. Okay, should we get into Supreme Court inductions? Yes, we've got Supreme Court inductions to do. We've got a new topic. That's right. We asked people to give us their favorite movie snack. Oh, yeah. their favorite movie snack.

Oh, yeah. So for this week's inductions, I would like you to just remain seated. Kind of like lean back a little bit in your seat. Get like real relaxed. Real relaxed. Julie, chocolate-covered pretzels, which seem to only come in incredibly loud, crinkly bags.

Sorry, fellow moviegoers. Heather. Bunch O' Crunch or Cookie Dough Bites. The Birches. A large popcorn with a bag of M&M's mixed in. Oh, that sounds delicious. Katie L. Crisps.

That's British for chips. Salt and black pepper flavored. Lena Bean. Lays potato chips with red hot hot sauce with a side of sour cream. How the fuck are you eating that in a movie, Lena Bean? She comes in with a tray. Emily Louise. Milk duds, popcorn, and a large Coke. Oh yeah. Natalie Louise. Milk duds, popcorn, and a large Coke. Oh, yeah. Welcome to the Supreme Court.

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Podcast adjourned! And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web, and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from the New York Times, the Philadelphia Inquirer, the New York Herald, the St. Albans Advertiser, and ushistory.org. And I got my info from an article by Denise Ngo for the Crime Library, Wikipedia, and the Smithsonian. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word

for it. Go read their stuff.