Let's Go To Court! - 92: A Man Who Sued His Wife’s Lover & a Robbery at a Video Game Store

Episode Date: October 23, 2019

When Kevin Howard’s wife, Julie, announced that she wanted to separate, Kevin was stunned. They’d been married for twelve years. They had two children. He thought they were happy. Julie claimed she didn’t like how much time Kevin spent at work, but Kevin suspected he wasn’t getting the full story. So he hired a private investigator, who quickly discovered that Julie was having an affair with a coworker named Greg Jernigan. Kevin wanted revenge, and he got it thanks to an obscure, old timey law. Then Brandi tells us about a tragedy at an EB Games store in San Antonio, Texas. Amber Belken was the store’s manager. Amber had a reputation for being dependable, so when she didn’t answer her phone on January 29, 2007, other EB Games managers began to worry. When they arrived at the store, they encountered a grizzly scene. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “A North Carolina man just won a $750,000 lawsuit after suiting his wife’s lover,” by Christina Maxouris and Leah Asmelash for CNN “His wife cheated on him. So he sued the other man for $750,000 and won,” by Lateshia Beachum for The Washington Post “Pitt County man wins $750,000 judgment against man for stealing his wife,” WITN.com In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Everything She Knew” episode Dateline “Man to plead guilty in suffocation death during 2007 Game Stop robbery” by KENS Staff, KENS 5 News “Ex-fugitive gets life in prison for video game store slaying” by Craig Kapitan, MySanAntonio

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about a man who sued his wife's lover and i'll be talking about a robbery at a video game store norman do you have an alibi were you there

uh i'll quote shaggy it wasn't me were you banging on the sofa what's that banging on the bathroom floor yeah he was banging all over the place oh that's right he even caught you on camera yeah I just remember the chorus

okay well I know deeply unimpressed yeah by your knowledge of Shaggy I couldn't have robbed that game store

I was banging on the sofa hey if you enjoy banging on the sofa. Hey, if you enjoy banging on the sofa, why don't you check out the LGTC Patreon? Wow. How much banging on the sofa is there going on in the LGTC Patreon? I'm just looking for common interests. You just want someone to talk to in the Discord?

Or maybe for a really high up tier on Patreon. You get to bang to in the Discord? Or maybe for like a really high up tier on Patreon. You get to bang Norm on the sofa? Whoa, daddy. No, seriously, guys, check out our Patreon. Nope, patreon.com slash LGTC podcast. You can join at the district, appellate, or Supreme Court levels for really cool stuff. Kristen, what do they get at all those levels? At the $2 level, you get to vote on topics and you get episode updates.

At the $5 level, you get all that plus. You get bonus episodes and you get to join the Discord. At the Supreme Court level, that's the $7 level. That's for the ballers. That's for the really rich people. Making it rain. $7 at. That's for the ballers. That's for the really rich people. Making it rain. $7 at a time. You get all of that.

Plus you get a sticker and you get our little autograph and thank you. And you get an induction. Do you think anybody's signing up for this because they get our autograph, Kristen? I like to dream. Let me quote our favorite review that we've ever received. No one knows who either of you are. Wait, that's a real review? That's a real review.

That's all it said? I think there was more. There was definitely more. They seemed to be very mad that we were having such a good time and talking so much, despite the fact that we're not famous. Man. Really hurt our feelings, so we're shutting the podcast down. That's right.

Until we get famous. It's a catch-22, I tell you. So please, guys, head on over to patreon.com slash lgtcpodcast and sign up today. All right. You guys ready to hear this story? Yes. About a man who sued his wife's lover? Yeah. It's a really happy story. I don't think it is.

Kevin Howard was super stoked. It was New Year's Eve 2016 and he just made a new friend. And it just happened to be his wife's very good friend oh oh well no no i hate brady's new friend is his wife's lover whoa no no no right now everybody's just good friends are you anti-friendship brandy no okay pro friendship the guy's name was greg

jernigan and greg worked with Kevin's wife, Julie. See, Greg was in his first year of teaching at the Pitt County School District, which, fun fact, this is in North Carolina. Peanut is from the Pitt County Animal Shelter. Oh, Peanut! Where is she? She's downstairs. She's not in here. Couldn't care less.

So the school district had assigned Julie to be Greg's mentor. Julie. Bow chicka bow wow. Julie. Am I right? No. I'm sorry. What's the bow chicka bow wow of friendships going great?

Pocket full of sunshine? I don't know. Why can't we be friends? Why can't we be friends? No, we're off. Why can't we be friends? Why can't we be friends? Add that to the playlist.

So guys, great news. Julie and Greg got along great. Oh, did they? Yeah, because you know sometimes it can be awkward, the mentor-mentee relationship. Until you bang it out. That could help. So picture it. They're all in a limo.

They're headed out to this New Year's Eve party at a Hilton hotel, I assume somewhere in Greenville, North Carolina. And they had a great time. It's nice for couples to have a friend in common. What? I don't know. Again, are you anti-friendship? No, I'm just getting real nervous here for Kevin. Kevin, is that his name?

Kevin is his name. Yeah, I don't think it's gonna end well for kevin no and uh you know that's exactly what was happening here just a bunch of friends uh-huh um kevin and julie had two kids and sometimes they'd have greg over for dinner as the whole family plus greg what could be better yeah yeah kevin felt comfortable around greg the two shared stories. They talked about their personal lives. About how they were banging the same chick.

Randy. Okay, but yeah, what Kevin did not know was that Greg was not a good friend. Because Greg was doing the horizontal mambo with Julie. So here's the truth. Julie and Greg's relationship had started out professional, but by the spring of 2017, they were balls deep in an affair. Oh! Retract that, please.

What? Is that really that offensive? No, I don't think it's offensive. It's not offensive, it's just filthy, dirty. Too on the nose. Too graphic? Too graphic? Oh, okay. They were, I mean, having rendezvous.

The article said they were having rendezvous. They were copulating regularly. Yeah. See, I like balls deep in an affair. I thought it was great. That's fine. Keep it. So, yeah, like I said, they'd have sex at Greg's apartment and they were so brazen that they'd

meet up together at downtown restaurants just for anyone to see. And so this is Greenville, North Carolina. Actually, Norman's sister lives there. Oh, Norman's disrobing on the podcast. He's doing a Mr. Rogers. I'm just taking my shoes off. Are you going to put your indoor shoes on? Yeah, my slippers.

It's so beautiful beautiful uh yes my sister lives in the greenville area so can you give her address please yes it's stop norman norman caruso anyway i'm bringing this up because like you're familiar with the area i think some people sometimes like when you hear like oh they would go out out to restaurants and downtown and it's like i think in a bigger city you'd be like well that's not that's not brazen yeah but in greenville that's pretty brazen i mean it's i'd say so, but it's- Greenville's not tiny, but I think it's small.

It's small enough to where people would notice that. And they did. The two were in constant communication. And in case you're wondering, hmm, I wonder if Kevin ever saw anything suspicious on Julie's phone. The answer is no. Why?

Because Greg bought her a track phone. Oh, she had a burner phone. Yeah, burner phone. Yeah, it's not good. No, no, it's real shitty. Yeah. So poor Kevin had no idea that any of this was going on. He thought he had had the perfect marriage.

He and Julie had been together for like 12 years. He thought they were solid. marriage. He and Julie had been together for like 12 years. He thought they were solid. But suddenly in the spring of 2017, Julie said that she wanted to separate. She said she was unhappy in the marriage. And the reason? Kevin worked too much. It's all Kevin's fault. Yes. I fucking hate this. Yeah. I hate this. If you want the marriage to end, just own your shit. Yes, exactly. So, you know, Kevin, of course, was devastated.

And it's unclear to me who suggested they go to marital counseling, but obviously it was Kevin, right? Yeah, I would assume. So they start going to marital counseling in March of 2017. And how did that go? They start going to marital counseling in March of 2017. And how did that go? Well, something felt off, which I imagine something would feel off when one person doesn't really want to make things work and they're banging somebody on the side, sending off lovey text messages with their track phone. Have you seen the spelling of track phone? T-R-A-C-F-O-N-E.

Hate it. Hate it. Kevin had this nagging feeling that there was something more going on. Something he didn't know about. So he hired a private investigator. Ooh. And the P.I. cracked the case pretty quickly. Julie was having an affair with her mentee,

manatee. Manatee. She was sleeping with a manatee? Yeah. The classic mentor-manatee relationship. Beautiful sea cow. I wonder how quick he cracked it. Was he just like,

yeah, they're down at the Olive Garden right now, dude. I bet it wasn't too hard to crack, don't you think? Yeah. Kevin was super upset. He went to Julie and confronted her, and she confessed. She said that Greg had just said all the right things to her. She'd made a huge mistake having sex with him. Kevin and Julie tried to make things work.

But on June 23rd, after a couple of months, they called it quits. The marriage was over and they started divorce proceedings, which in North Carolina is no small thing. I had a friend get divorced in North Carolina. They have like a crazy waiting period. They have a year waiting period, which is insane. Fun fact, Kansas, 60 days. Gee, how would you know?

Just fun facts from your own life. Source. My own divorce. Source, I am an expert. I was officially divorced on the 61st day. So Kevin was devastated. He'd had a great marriage, and then it was gone. And yes, his wife was definitely partly to blame, but so was Greg. Kevin and what? What? Okay. What?

Greg was to blame? Partly, sure. Okay. Because they'd been perfectly happy? Partly, sure. Okay. Because they'd been perfectly happy. And then, well, hold on, and then Greg enters the picture. And then they're not happy. Okay. Therefore.

All Greg's fault. But what can you do? It sounds like he sued him. Well, yeah. Yeah. Greg looked himself in the mirror. We're not to that part yet. Okay?

Okay? Turns out, in some states, you can actually sue your spouse's lover. Hmm. What? What was that? You want to unpack that noise you made? I don't really know how to explain it. It's like a surprise and judgment.

Both, and that's all I have to say about that. What you can sue them for is alienation of affection. And our boy Kevin just happened to be in one of those states. Can I have a list of the states? You will have a list, but I'm going to have you and Norman guess which states because I think it's kind of fun. Okay. Okay. But we're going to pause here for a brief lesson in the law with your girl, Kristen, who did one semester of law school. So these laws are sometimes called homewrecker laws. I know. They're also called heart balm

laws. Heart balm? Like lip balm. Like balm for your heart because your heart was broken. Like the money is going to fix your heart. Undo it. I was very confused about what was happening. Did you think I was having a stroke? I did. I was real worried about what was happening. Did you think I was having a stroke?

I did. I was real worried. What song was I doing? It's a Carrie Underwood song, right? Yeah, maybe. You stole my happy. You made me cry. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Took me for a ride. I'm gonna sue you. Let me do it. Undo it. What's the name of the song? It carrie it's called undo it by carrie underwood also by kristin and brandy i'll add it so these laws are like fucking old they come all the way back from england and this was back when the courts viewed women as property. Yes. Yes.

Long, long time ago. Yesterday. So this was like, just like you could sue someone for, like, stealing your mule or whatever, you could sue someone for stealing your wife. Okay. And nowadays, there are still a few states that have these laws on the books, but, you know, now it's got, like, a modern states that have these laws on the books. But, you know, now it's got like a modern twist because these days women can do anything. And we can sue a lady or whoever for stealing our spouse.

That was my question. Can you do it the opposite way? Yeah. Okay. So I have six states written down here, but I thought there were seven. Oh, well. Brandy, you get three guesses. Okay.

And Norman, you get three guesses as to which states in the United States you can sue someone for alienation of affection. Georgia. No. Ooh. That's one. Alabama.

Nope. Mm. Mississippi. Yes. Got one. Okay, Norman, can you do better than Brandy? Florida. No, but that's you do better than Brandy? Florida. No, but that's a very good guess.

Texas. No, another good guess. Louisiana. No, you struck out. Oh, I feel so bad for you. And I'm sorry, how come Norm's word, oh, great guess, nice try, honey bear. And mine were, oh, no, no. Yeah, you yeah you got one you know we're a couple with

we're a couple with a mutual friend brandy we are we are you know we just talked about this at lunch yeah well first of all let me tell the states yeah tell us the states okay so the states that still have these laws hawaii mississippi new Mexico, South Dakota, Utah, and North Carolina. So no, we talked about this at lunch a little bit about like, would you feel uncomfortable if your spouse like touched or went out with someone of the opposite sex? Like what level of contact? Assuming that you're straight i guess what level of contact with someone yeah of the orientation that you are like i know it is it is a difficult to but um yeah so like yeah if you're into if you're into dudes if it was another

dude who's not your spouse like what level of contact would you be comfortable with your spouse having contact with i told norman that i expect him to be like the bubble boy no let no one more than three feet that's right yeah whenever like a waitress comes to take my order i'm like back off i can't talk to you yeah kristen orders all of norm's really it's just because he did that embarrassing thing at the gold knocks that one time what did he do remember he ordered the pot of cream what did he do i can't remember what you said he called it but the pot of cream yeah it was your guys's dessert oh yeah so oh my god i do remember this now i'm cringing it was our anniversary the story. I was looking at their dessert menu and it was in French.

It was like, it was like, it was like, like cream dip, dip pot or something. And, uh, it,

you know, it was a delicious dessert cream with like chocolate in it and whatnot. And so he said, what dessert you want? I said, I'll have the pot of cream. Cause that's what it translates to right the truth is that norman had had one long island iced tea that night i did and was feeling wild he made a very strong one of my one of my

favorite mixed drinks made it very strong only handle one only handle one. I got messed up. Drank one, whipped up his shirt, danced at the bar, and then asked for a pot of cream. I don't know why I was embarrassed. I thought it was funny. It was funny. Pot of cream. So in order to win an alienation of affection case, you have to, number one, prove that you and your spouse had a happy marriage before this third party intervened, And then you have to prove that this third party wrecked your marriage. Check.

Technically, the third party... For Kevin, I mean. Right. I'm clearly talking about Kevin. Obviously. Obviously, yes. Technically, the third party does not have to be a homewrecking hoe although it almost always is it can actually just be like let's say you've got an in-law who intervenes in your marriage or like

yeah it can technically be anyone it doesn't have to be like a lover alienation of affection could mean something different right right yeah but you know these cases are almost always about the home wrecking hoes like greg i love calling men home back to kevin kevin was very upset about his marriage ending and he wanted to do something about it so he looked himself in the mirror and he said let's go to court he hired hired. Norm is so over us. I know. Are you going to tell us we're not even famous? No one even knows who you are.

Wow. Continue. Wow. He hired attorney Cynthia Mills. So Cynthia is like a big fan of this alienation of affection law. She's been practicing law for 31 years and she said she's done at least 30 of these cases so meanwhile in all these articles other attorneys are like what the fuck is this she's like oh yeah big fan yeah do this all the time which is kind of

interesting because this is these laws are very controversial. And one of the reasons. Well, actually, let's pause. Why do you think these laws might be controversial? Because how can you blame a third party for. Sure. Yeah, sure. That's one reason. Yeah.

Here's another reason that lawyers hate taking these cases on, particularly when it comes to someone, a couple who has children. In order to make your case, you have to do the discovery process you have to do all these depositions it's entered into the court record it becomes a public document and so what you basically have is a very detailed gross public document about your parents affair that a child can then go look up yeah that's rough is there a high case of fraud in these instances i don't think so mostly because they're so uncommon as it is i think if you're gonna take this to a court like you're gonna have your ducks in a row but kevin wanted to move forward with the case. And by this point, he and Julie had divorced. So the only thing left from his marriage was this showdown with Greg.

Like I said, a lot of people think these laws are ridiculous. And Greg appeared to be one of those people. So here's the tough thing. Greg has not done any interviews that I could find. But it appears, based on what I read, that he did not grasp the gravity of this situation. Because you may think a law is ridiculous. But it's still a law. It's still a law.

And you still broke it. Oh. He decided to represent himself in court. Yeah, I could think it's ridiculous that I have to drive 25 miles per hour on a street where there's nothing, but if they catch me going 50 on that road, I've still broken the law. Yeah, you're still going to pay. Yes.

When it was time for his deposition. So he represents himself. Yeah. Great move, huh? No. Oh, but you haven't heard about his background. As a lawyer? He's a teacher.

Of the law? No. Why would you ever represent yourself? That is crazy. Yeah, that is crazy. When it was time for his deposition, Kevin's lawyer says that Greg laughed. Oh. Not a great look.

Nope. laughed oh not a great look nope and so she was like do you find something funny about this process and he was like yeah i think it's funny that i'm getting sued for this he seemed to think that this was all some big yeah big joke but greg wasn't laughing for. Do you know what came of this case? Does this case sound familiar? It made big headlines. Yeah, I think I know. On August 19th, 2019, a Superior Court judge in Pitt County, North Carolina

made national headlines by ordering Greg Jernigan to pay Kevin Howard $750,000 in damages. And he's a teacher, so... So that money's going to come quick and... It'll take him 200 years to pay it. Yeah. Here's the deal.

If Greg can't pay, then it becomes debt owed and it appears on his credit report. I'm kind of curious as to how this works. So I guess he can't buy a house. Yeah. I mean, some people were like, oh, it's just, you know, he's never going to collect on this. It's just a piece of paper. But I mean, that's still a debt owed. Yeah.

I mean, that. Wow. So Kevin probably won't get any actual money from this, but he says that's okay. He just wanted the moral victory. Oh, wow. Yeah. Some people, like this verdict came out in August, like I said, and this has kind of reinvigorated a conversation around it. Some people say that these laws need to be repealed because it takes up the court's time yeah and the victims even if you do get a

judgment in your favor you hardly ever collect i don't know that that's necessarily a reason to repeal them yeah but that is the story of a man who sued his wife's lover. And I'm curious to know what we all think of this, because, like, I started out one way. I changed my opinion. I'm kind of, like, loosey-goosey. I feel like you should be able to sue for this. But then I think about this, its roots in property and all that, and then I think, well, I don't know.

I'm so confuddled. I have to tell you like with my experience in in this area like i never once blamed the other woman yeah like didn't even cross my mind to well you're a great person i'm not i'm not i'm just saying and everyone like crossed my mind to be pissed at her yeah i mean See, that's kind of how I feel too. Yeah. Because in this case. She didn't owe me anything.

Yeah. My spouse is who owed me his loyalty and did not. Right. Follow through on that. Yeah. Right. And that's how I feel about this case is that she owed. She owed her loyalty to Kevin.

Yeah. And she broke it. But she's not the one getting sued exactly it also comes from a position of this like because it is rooted in you know a woman is property that like they're powerless and they were like seduced away. Yeah, that's true. She couldn't even help it. I think it's a silly law, but it is a law. It's in the books. But should it be off the books? Probably.

It's kind of stupid. It definitely seems old-timey to me. Here's what should happen. Yeah. You should be able to sue the spouse. You shouldn't be able to sue the spouse, but when you go through a divorce, it should take into account cheating because there are no-fault states. And I think that is stupid. Yeah.

Do you think the no-fault thing is just because, like, if they didn't have no-fault, then stuff would get tied up in courts for years just to like prove that somebody had been cheating yeah but think about this think about being in a no fault state okay so think about a married couple a husband and wife the wife is the breadwinner right the husband has an affair yeah they're in a no fault state And so the wife who files for divorce and was the one who was cheated on now has to pay alimony to the person who cheated on her. That would...

Oh. Yeah. I don't know that I could recover. Right? I mean... And that's my problem with no-fault. No-fault states. I agree.

Yeah. Yeah, there's no justice in that. Yeah, exactly. Oh, God. Yeah. You'd see me on one of those murder for fire date lines. Oh, that'd be awful. Yeah.

Wouldn't that be awful? I think so. I don't know if I ever told you this. When I first moved to North Carolina and I was doing my job search, I was looking for, like, any kind of gig I could get. Yeah. And there was this lady who said she needed a babysitter. And so I was like, okay, cool. So we met up.

Did I tell you this story? I don't think so. This is, like, the saddest story. So we met up at this diner for, like, the interview thing. And she was, like, very, very very pregnant, like seven months pregnant or something. And she told me that the reason she needed a babysitter was because she had a two year old. She had one on the way. And like a year ago, one of her best friend's husband died.

And so she felt really bad for the best friend. So they started like having the best friend over to the house more. Yeah, you see where this is going. Started having the best friend over to the house more and more like, you know, just to make sure she was doing okay, make sure she wasn't lonely. Then one day, the woman comes home when she like wasn't supposed to come home, walks into her own bedroom and her best friend her husband banging oh yep oh no yeah i would die so she told me that story in a diner and she was crying i was crying i mean i just like i oh man oh no and in situations like that, I'm like, you should be able to sue everyone.

Burn it to the ground. No, I think you guys are right. I think these laws are silly. They need to be taken away. But I just. Yeah. I think suing is like. Yeah, I think it's too far because it's like relationships and sometimes they don't work out.

far because it's like yeah relationships end sometimes they don't work out but when there's a legally binding contract as marriages yeah then there should be consequences for it when you break the contract yeah so that's i feel like that's my biggest problem with the law is that greg made no promise to kevin right they had no contract right is being punished. That's a really good point. Yeah. I wonder also what people think about attorneys who take on these cases. Because it occurred to me as I was writing this that like, okay, so Kevin's probably not going to get any money from this. But he racked up a ton of legal fees. So does that mean that the only people who are going to profit are the lawyers?

Yeah. Well, and I mean, Greg didn't even get an attorney. Yeah. That's shitty. Yeah. You were going to say something? I was going to say the only part of this that I feel satisfaction about is that Greg thought it was hilarious and then he got destroyed in court.

It represented himself. Got too cocky. Yeah. Yeah. See, I'm a little coward. Anything legal comes in the mail. I whimper and cower in fear. Yeah, of course.

Remember that time we got that letter from MLB? Major League Baseball, yeah. What'd you get a letter from MLB for? I made a documentary on when Nintendo bought the Seattle Mariners and they so I was in contact with MLB about getting some footage

licensed and they were taking forever to get back with me and I talked it over with some friends and they're like it's fair use you can use ML like, it's fair use. You can use MLB footage. It's documentary. So I put clips of old MLB clips from like the 80s. Well, they found the video

and they sent a cease and desist to our house. It was so scary. And they said, take it down. Take down all evidence that you made the video and sign this letter. Did you pee yourself? Practically.

I about did. I caved. It's just funny to think back to us in our little house, just making our little YouTube show. I never thought. MLB comes knocking. But I've heard horror stories. People are like, oh, I recorded the World Series Game 5 and they came knocking on my door.

I was like, no way. There's no way. MLB is nuts. They are nuts about it. So do you remember when there was like World Series fever here? Because the Royals went, you know, back to back two years. People were doing like all kinds of businesses were doing giveaways for World Series tickets. And that's against MLB rules.

And a ton of small businesses here in the Kansas City area got cease and desist letters from the MLB for trying to raffle off World Series tickets. That's so silly. It is silly. MLB doesn't fuck around. Yeah, and I'm still curious how much that footage would have cost it would have been

thousands and thousands we could never have afforded it i mean yeah that's just the bottom line yeah anyway yeah i i'm a little coward baby even like when i got a speeding ticket when i forgot my first speeding ticket did you cry i didn't cry but i was like scared to death but it was literally you walk in and they're like guilty, you pay a hundred bucks and I was gone. You had to make a court appearance? Yeah.

I thought you chose to make a court appearance. No, you never would have chose that, would you? Well, so. I think you were going to try to argue it. No, no, no, no, no. And then I got there and I peed my pants. No, I had to go. I don't know why, but for some reason I had to go.

And it was in Virginia, but I lived in North Carolina. See, I had to drive up to Virginia and go to court. Maybe because you had an out-of-state license. That might be why. Oh, but I was scared to death. I was a young boy. New to the world. Didn't know what to do. So anyway, if Kevin had sent a deposition to me.

Cease and desist on fucking my wife. Please cease and desist from fucking my wife. Erase all evidence that you fucked my wife now if you want to pay to fuck my wife whoa now that's an interesting marriage well essentially isn't that what he ended up doing

that's a oh that's weird oh wow you're right in a, oh, that's, oh, wow. You're right in the way. Basically, yeah. That's some expensive sex. It's like he got a huge cable bill and he's like, I'm not paying this bill. And it'll just like sit in his permanent record forever. Did you guys hear about your permanent record when you were a kid? No.

No. Like this is going in your permanent record. This'll go down on your permanent record. Yeah. No. No. Like this is going in your permanent record. This will go down on your permanent record. Yeah. No. That was a big thing in the show Doug. Do you remember Doug? Mr. Bone would always threaten.

Doug sucked. Okay. I have to say, David and I wanted to watch like just something stupid on TV the other day. And so I picked Doug and we started like from the very beginning first episode god when they moved to bluffington yeah it was boring as fuck doug is a terrible show it was a terrible show it is a terrible show norm don't cry it's just the truth i feel like my heart is splitting right now and then

wait is that the same one with the, or did we watch two episodes? The Nematode? Yeah, with the Nematode. Coo-da-coo-doo! Yeah, is that the first episode? Okay. Now, to be fair, it's the first episode.

Oh, yeah. Did it get better? It gets way better. The first episode's not that good. It is kind of boring. It was super boring. Because Doug's like, well, what do I do? I guess i'll

walk down and get burgers and he walks down to honker burger skeeter helps him order it steps on fucking ketchup it's kind of slight three times he steps on ketchup kristin it upsets me greatly that you two can recite this episode of doug so i just watched it well I just watched it. Well, that's a shame. You shouldn't admit that. Okay, I'm going to bring it down here a bit. Do you need to pee first, Kristen? Or how's the bladder feeling? The bladder is feeling great. Well, okay.

Now, anytime someone says bladder, I think of the fatty Arbuckle case. And I think of it being blown to bits. Oh, yeah. Poor Virginia Rapp. Poor fatty. I know. Nobody won in that story. No. Especially Fatty, who would not appreciate that you were calling him Fatty now.

I'm sorry, Roscoe. Roscoe, yes. Sorry, Roscoe. Is this going to be like another sledgehammer thing? There are no sledgehammers involved. There is a murder. Okay. Okay. You've had a lot of gamer cases lately.

Yeah. Nora, I'm trying to keep you interested. It's a tough job. I'm trying to remember how I heard about this case. I can't. Oh, you know what? I think you talked about how your worst job was GameStop. And I looked up to see if GameStop was ever involved in any kind of lawsuits or anything.

Didn't find what I was looking for, but I found this case. Cute. So this comes almost entirely from an episode of Dateline that was done by Keith Morrison. What a dreamboat. Love him. All right Alright are we ready? I am Which I guess I should mention the gift you got me today Kristen got me a Keith Morrison

Popsocket It's amazing So you mentioned it on the podcast that those things exist Yes So I ordered one for you and then you know how Normanan and i roll if a package arrives norman just trip rips into it and so norman is not a keith morrison fan the way we are so he just was like who's this old white dude no that's not accurate i know who keith morrison is you are do you mean to tell me that when you saw this pop socket, you immediately were like, that is Keith Morrison? Yes. Dateline's Keith Morrison? Yes, I know who Keith Morrison is.

I just thought it was strange he was on a pop socket. Who's his stepson? Yeah, who? I don't know. He's a famous stepson. I don't know. Chandler from Friends. Really? Yes. Did not know that. Thank you for that piece of trivia. Who's Brandy's least favorite dateline correspondent okay why is my throat keeping that noise is it like former or current current i don't know she says it okay so i feel really bad about this because he works really hard obviously and people like him i hate even saying this because then let's not say it i want to know now okay i will say i was really harsh on him the last time we talked about this i will be less harsh he's my least favorite dateline reporter josh mankiewicz okay i don't know that is okay you need to watch more dateline norm the bottom line. I just don't really watch Dateline.

The only time I watched Dateline was when we were at your parents' house. So, okay, the reason I'm having the change of heart here on Josh Makewoods is because, okay, I listened to the thing about Pam. Fucking loved it. Yeah. So good. Keith Morrison could read me the fucking phone book, and I'd listen to it.

Love it. I went in and read some other reviews for the thing about pam and people are like what's up with this narrator i hated him i know i was like who the fuck are you talking about so then i thought about like maybe people feel that way about josh mankiewicz maybe people are like really love josh mankiewicz and i was here talking shit about him. And I felt really bad. Okay. So Josh Mankiewicz, if you're listening, thank you.

Welcome to the podcast. And I'm so sorry for those things I said about you last time. All right. Sure. Okay. Oh, wow. Bored already? I haven't even started, Kristen. I'm so sorry.

Oh, let's talk about Doug. You don't like patty mayonnaise? No, the whole cast was pork chop that it was super roger skater valentine bb bluff so stupid do you think skater's supposed to be black is that like skiers 100 black yeah like i can't believe i can't believe jim jenkins even like argued that he said he's not? He's like, I made the cast a variety of colors so we can all, you know, love the differences about each other. Spears is definitely supposed to be black. Yeah. 100%.

I do think that those characters are all different races, but what unites them is that they're all so boring. Okay. all different races but what unites them is that they're all so boring okay it's monday january 29th 2007 we're in san antonio texas mariano rivera which is now my favorite name it's beautiful like it just flows really nicely i love it the famous pitcher for for the New York Yankees? No, different Mariano Rivera. Okay. He was the manager of a GameStop video game store. And he was at his store doing his regular Monday morning routine. And his routine was simple. And this was like the same thing that all of the managers within the chain followed.

Monday morning, you come in at 9. The store doesn't open till 10. You do your bank deposit from the weekend, like you get that out of the safe, you take it to the bank, you come back, you get the store all phased, put out any new displays, whatever, ready to go for business at 10. So he did all of that. And everything went just like it normally does. No problems. He got the deposit made, store open on time, all of that. It wasn't until later that morning that Mariano received a call from his district manager. Something was up with a sister store a few miles away.

It wasn't open and the district manager couldn't get a hold of the store manager, Amber Belkin. Amber was a 25-year-old, very petite. We're talking like five to 100 pounds. Same. She was a very cute young woman. But more importantly, she was extremely reliable. It was super out of character for her not to have her store open. The district manager asked Mariano to drive to Amber's store and see what was going on. And so Mariano did as he was asked.

to drive to Amber's store and see what was going on. And so Mariano did as he was asked. And if he was being honest, he was a little bit concerned. He knew Amber fairly well, and this was not like her. So Mariano arrived at Amber's store, the EB Games, located at 7313 San Pedro Avenue, San Antonio. So according according to google this is now a jimmy johns but at the time it was an eb games norm yes are there any eb games around anymore i believe they are in canada okay okay so eb games is owned by gamestop so. I'm sorry. I just burped right into the microphone. Mm.

So these are under the same parent company, but they don't, like, Mariano runs a GameStop. Amber runs an EB Games. Gotcha. Did you pull up the, are you looking at the strip center now? I'm looking. There appears to be a Jimmy John's. There appears to be a Starbucks. So remember. Chains as far as the eye can see.

Okay, remember the Starbucks. I will remember the Starbucks. Also remember the Alamo. We're in San Antonio, Kristen. Remember the Alamo. I will. Okay, so he pulls up to the store and. Just a quick note.

Yeah. Did you know back in the day you could just walk into the Alamo and just like talk to anybody you wanted? You could just talk to Davy Crockett. Davy Crockett was right in there. Nowadays, you have to get an appointment with Davy Crockett. So annoying. Anyway, continue. Let me find my spot here.

Everybody drink. Brandi lost her place sure enough he pulls up and the store is closed but amber's car was in the parking lot mariano tried the door but it was locked and he kind of looked in through the window but the store was dark obviously um and he couldn't really make out anything that seemed out of the norm he called amber's phone a couple times, but there was no answer. He reported all of this to the district manager and then returned to his store.

Later that afternoon, like around two, Mariano received another call from the district manager. This time he was like, hey, we still haven't heard from Amber. Can you head back over to her store? Something is definitely up. Check her car. Check the back door.

Call me when you get there. So Mariano goes back to the store. And this time something was different. When he looked through the window, he could see Amber's assistant manager, Brandon, standing behind the counter, just kind of looking around in a closed store in a closed store the store still closed the door still locked the lights are off but Brandon is standing there behind the counter looking very confused so Mariano like knocks on the door Brandon comes over and lets him in and as soon as Mariana walks in the store he sees that like something is fucking wrong here there are video games all over the floor it is a mess there has

definitely been a struggle as he walks over behind the counter like the the till from the register is open the rolled coins are out on the counter but there's no cash in the drawer or anything and so he's like to brandon he's like what's what's going on right and brandon's like i don't know i just got here and he's like you just got here and he's like yeah and he's like okay is is amber here he's like i i don't know and he's like, I, I don't know. And he's like, well, her car's in the parking lot. And he's like, yeah. And he's like,

but you have, you didn't have you check the back of the store or anything. And he's like, no, man, I just got here. He's like, you didn't notice like that.

It's a fucking mess in here. Well, well now hold on. Brandon had, I don't know. Brandon had just walked don't know. Brandon had just walked in, right? Genuinely?

I mean, that's what he's saying. Okay. Okay. Gotcha. So Mariano runs to the back of the store, kind of like where the office is. Yeah. He opens the door to the office,

and there's Amber Belkin on the floor. Her hands are duct taped behind her back, And there's a bag over her head. Oh, my God. A plastic bag. She has been killed. He obviously calls the police. And the police come. And as soon as they get there, they immediately call this detective, Raymond Roberts, a.k.a. Ray Bob.

That's what he goes by. No. No. Ray Bob. That's what he goes by. No, no. Ray Bob. And side note, I have not actually seen this episode of Dateline. I've only listened to it. So I've only heard the audio.

I've never actually seen what he looks like. But he sounds exactly like Danny McBride. And that nickname is funny. I've got to say, if a loved one of mine died and people were like don't worry we've got ray bob on the job yeah i would not feel great ray bob was the first call that police made they were like this is the guy you want investigating this crime well who the fuck else do they have on the force okay anyway sorry ray bob i'm sure you're great i'm sure you're the hero of this story so ray bob comes and he's like checking out the scene and there has very clearly been a robbery a struggle and a murder they assess the situation like 1900 in cash is missing

wow the deposit had never been taken okay so some point so what they know is that amber text her boyfriend at 908 a.m and said i love you and then she disarmed the alarm at the store at like 9 12 but her phone had been left in her car so she was like very clearly planning to go into the store grab the deposit and immediately come back out and take it to the bank. She never made it back out to her car because her phone was still sitting on the front seat. And so someone had done this from that time at 9-12 and then it was already done by the time, essentially by the time Mariano got there to check the store for why it wasn't open, the person was already gone.

Or was he was it brandon was it perhaps so ray bob starts looking into like what they know they know that this store is the only eb games or game stop in the san antonio area that doesn't have security cameras. Oh, boy. And it's the no other store in the strip has security cameras either, with the exception of Starbucks. Starbucks has one security camera, but it like goes directly on their front door. So there are no cameras here whatsoever. And so he's like, this is definitely was a targeted store. And it's somebody who knows, who has inside knowledge of this business.

Definitely Brandon. It's definitely Brandon. That's exactly what Ray Bob says. And then they start looking into Ray Bob's, or I'm sorry, Brandon's work history. And it turns out that he and Amber had been butting heads. He hadn't worked there very long. He did not get along. He didn't like her management style.

They did not get along well. And that very day, Amber had prepared a final write-up. It was his last warning. She was going to present it to him that day. He was going to sign it. It was going to get turned into corporate. And whatever, you know, whatever discretions he had, that was his final warning. And if he did it again, he was gone.

Is he a red herring in this story? Right now, he's our prime suspect, Kristen. Okay. He would be for me. Smells like a red herring. Because as a key holder, you do know. The inner workings. Okay. He's got, he would be for me. Smells like a red herring. Because as a key holder, you do know the inner workings. Yeah. You have the security camera footage.

You know if it's there or not. Plus, just the fact that she was in the back. Yeah. Which is always locked at a game stop. So someone put her back there. Nope. And she was dead, which means if somebody's going to rob a store, they're probably not going to kill the person.

They just want the money. That was the first thing that Ray Bob said. He's like, you don't kill someone for this robbery. This robbery is a cover-up for the murder. Yeah. And so the thing that really, like um ray bob like brandon for the crime was that he knew the exact window when amber would have pulled the money out of the safe and had it to take it to the bank and he would have attacked her like right at that time to be able to at least you know get

something out of it but he did not believe that robbery was the motive he believed that brandon had murdered amber because he was going to lose his job i don't know that it's worth it to murder someone over a job at gamestop not definitely not so the investigation's kind of moving along, and word of this body being found inside the EB game spread through town really quickly. And Amber's parents, Randy and Lee, had some connections in law enforcement,

and so they got a call really quickly that something was going on at Amber's store once her body had been located. But they didn't know what had happened. They heard that a body had been found there. And so Randy immediately gets in his truck and goes to drive to Amber's store. Yes. And he calls his friend, who's a defense attorney.

And he's like, this is what I know. Can you call around and see what you can find out? Like, what happened here? And he's afraid that his daughter has discovered a body in her store and that she is going to be traumatized by it. And it's like as he's pulling into the parking lot of her store that he gets a call back from his friend who's the defense attorney and is like, Randy, I've got some really terrible news. Yeah. It's Amber. Yeah.

Amber was Randy and Lee's only child and they like had completely doted on her she'd had a pretty easy life very privileged but she was like a amazing human being as a result of it like she'd help anybody she'd give you the shirt off her back she loved animals she was always like bringing home stray animals and then like adopting them out and stuff they were crushed by this. And they were pretty sure that Brandon was the one who had done it because Amber had had a conversation with her mother that day about how she was going to write Brandon up and how she felt really nervous about how he was going to react to it.

But she just had to do it. Ray Bob's like zeroed in on brandon starts watching his behavior he brings him in he interrogates him he checks into this alibi that he says he has he said that morning he got up and he went and helped his fiance's parents move a kitchen island into their kitchen a likely story no one's ever put an island in a kitchen no and he says that he didn't even know that amber had written him up he didn't know anything about that and even if she had like okay it's a job it's a job yeah so he's like telling this whole story about how he doesn't know anything about it and his behavior at the store that day how he'd been standing there and hadn't even bothered to look for amber

he had an explanation for that shock he'd just gotten there and he was like fuck was i the one that was supposed to open he thought that he had messed up he got there and he was sure that he had read the schedule wrong and that he was the one who was the result of the store not being open yet and he was like i'm gonna get fucking fired okay see that's why initially i wasn't so weird about brandon because i don't think it's that weird to walk into a store that's a mess and be like whoa yeah and just kind of stand there for a minute and not know what to do yeah as for his behavior about not even noticing that fucking shit was missing

and that there were games on the floor, he had an explanation for that, too. Okay, well, that is stupid. You have to notice that. He assumed that the closer the night before hadn't done their duties and had left the place a mess. It had been a Sunday, which would be a busy day, and he'd assumed that they'd been busy right up to close

and that the person was like, fuck i'm out of here leaving the cleanup for the opener how messy was it that i don't know okay am i am i an idiot for thinking this guy might be okay ray bob's pretty sure he did it so i don't know exactly how how messy the store was and ray bob kept saying that um there were dvd games all over the place oh ray bob oh ray bob but in all there was did i already say this there was 1900 in cash and then about an additional $4,000 in merchandise. So video game consoles, video games. DVD games. DVD games. Whatever the fuck that is.

My favorite kind of games are the DVD games. So this person who had robbed this store and killed Amber had gotten off with about $6,000 worth of goods and cash. Meanwhile, Brandon is maintaining his innocence um he goes to amber's funeral and his and her mom is disgusted she can't believe that he would have the gall to show his face there if he did it why would he come back to the scene and not call the cops wouldn't there be like a phony 911 call from him maybe i mean i don't mean to give anybody tips yeah let me write this down christopher so So they subject Brandon to several interrogations. They execute a search warrant on his home. They bring in his fiance for questioning because she's part of his alibi.

And they like set her down with Ray Bob. They put Brandon with like their their like most skilled interrogator who's got like this special style that gets even the hardest criminal to crack. And his name was Jimmy Dean. It was actually a woman. Her name was Barbara Ann. Are you kidding me? No, I don't know what her name was. Don't excite me like that, Brandi.

But nothing. They tell his fiancée, how does it feel every night to be sleeping next to a murderer? Oh, good Lord. They lay it on thick, don't they? Yeah. Ray Bob is like, keep an eye on him all the time. Do not let him get out of town.

And then they get his phone records back. And at the time of Amber's death, he was miles away. Well, there you go. His alibi was solid as a rock. It could not possibly have been him. And then they finally cleared Brandon on this episode. Can you imagine? So Keith Morrison asks him, he's like, how did that feel?

And he's like, they never even told me I was cleared. They never even told me. And Keith Morrison's like, so you just every day, you thought this is the day that they're going to come charge me with murder. And he's like, yes, I thought for sure every day I was going to be charged with murder. So the case goes cold. They have essentially no evidence. They've got no video surveillance. They've got no witnesses. They've got a few partial fingerprints

that they took at the scene, but this is a video game store where people are in and out all the time. They have no idea who these fingerprints belong to. Yeah. They could be anybody's. Did they crack down on all the local nerds? They questioned everyone with a loyalty card

who enjoys dvd video games norman you missed that yeah ray bob kept calling the stuff in the store dvd video games that's just i mean you get where he's coming from he's kind of right on some games. They are on DVDs, but it's a weird thing to say. Yes. It's like when your mom calls every single video game a Nintendo. Oh, he's just down there playing his Nintendo. Playing his Nintendo. It's 2015.

He's got an Xbox. So the case goes cold. They have nothing to go on. A $100,000 reward is offered in the case, $95,000 of which was put up by EB Games. Wow. Yeah. They put up billboards asking for people to call in.

And this thing was a very big news topic in the San Antonio area. I'm sorry, you said $100,000, right? $100,000, yeah. For some reason I thought you said $100, and I was like, that seems very low. $100,000. EB Games put up $95. Can you believe it?

I was about to rip into EB, like, come on, EB. That was $95 in store credit. Did you buy you half of one DVD video game. Actually, if it was EB Games GameStop, they'd give you like $5. Not $95. So, Randy and Lee, Amber's parents,

and then Amber had these two really close girlfriends. They were all canvassing the city constantly, handing out posters and flyers, looking for any kind of a break in the case i would canvas the shit out of kansas city for you i'm just saying i would do the same for you i know you would and then ray bob got a call someone knew who killed amber But he didn't want to give his name. Okay. He said, just call me Joe.

But I know who killed Amber. And Ray Bob's like, okay, buddy. What do you got for me? And he's like, Giovanni Rivera killed Amber. And he's like, gonna need some more.

Gonna need you to give me some id gonna need you to come down give me an official statement like right how do i know that this is this is legit and the guy's like i swear it's legit he's my best friend and he's like okay come on down and make a statement and so he does he comes in and this joe guy says he and giovanni have been best friends they both worked at eb games they both worked for amber oh wow and that um couple weeks ago um or a couple weeks before the murder um Giovanni had come to Joe and said, hey, let's do this robbery. And he's like, I got the perfect setup.

We're going to rob EB Games. You know, there's no videotapes, nothing. No surveillance. They will be able to get in and out, no problem. And we'll just, we'll tape Amber up. She's so tiny, she won't be able to fight us. It'll be super easy in and out we'll get a good haul easy job and Joe's like no thanks I'm not interested this is not something

that he had ever done before he didn't really know why Giovanni was asking him he to his knowledge Giovanni hadn't done anything like that before right and. And so he was just like, nah, I'm out. And so that was enough information to pique Ray Bob's interest. And so Ray Bob made a couple calls. He called EB Games and confirmed that both Joe and Giovanni had worked there. And then he pulled Giovanni's record to see if he had any priors. And he didn't as an adult. He had like one juvenile record, but it was like something kind of small and whatever.

And he's like, no, I don't know. I don't like this guy for murder. Yeah, that's quite a leap. Yeah. And so he ran Giovanni's fingerprints, which were in the system, against what they had taken at the scene. No match. Wow. But he worked there, right?

Yeah, but he didn't work there at the time. He had worked there in the past. Okay, okay, okay. And so he calls Joe back in. He's like, Joe, you know, I don't like Giovanni for this. I don't see how, you know, I don't see it. Yeah. And he's like, I know that he did it.

He told me he did it. And he's like, okay, what, wait, like this is more information than you gave me last time. And so now he tells him how, you know, he had asked him to do the robbery and he had said no. And then another time after it, they had been in the car together and he said, I pulled out the robbery. And, you know, that thing that you've seen on the news with Amber, that that was me. And he said that he didn't even know how to react to it. He didn't know what to do, because he was alone with Giovanni. And if he was capable of killing someone in a robbery, he didn't know what he could be capable of doing to him. And so he just froze and didn't do anything. He got out of the car as quickly as he could and then he held on to the information for a while not knowing if he should tell on his best friend but just

you've got constantly weighing on his conscience and he just had to tell someone yeah and so ray bob's like okay all right and so he's like like, I think that's enough for me to bring Giovanni in and question him. And so he brings Giovanni in for questioning. And Giovanni's very nervous. But I think that's, I would be nervous. Yeah, if I murdered someone. I've never murdered anyone. And I think I would be nervous if the police asked me to come down for an interrogation.

Because I know what can anyone. And I think I would be nervous if the police asked me to come down for an interrogation. Because I know what can happen. Yeah. But so he's super nervous. He like refuses a drink. He's like, no, my stomach's all messed up. Like, that'll make me sick. DNA. And so he's like, Ray Bob's like, you know, I'm just gonna come straight out with it.

I like you for the murder of Amber Belkin. And Giovanni's like, whoa, i like you like as a friend not ready for that commitment he's like no man i don't even know what you're talking about i don't know anything about that yeah yeah and he's like well you know amber and he's like well i mean i worked there for a little bit but you know i don't know anything else about it okay thanks bye and totally clams up won't say anything. And so they let him go. And Ray Bob is like, this is the guy. Like after meeting him, he's like, this is the guy. This is the guy that did it. And so he's like, I but I don't have anything. I don't have anything to tie him to the scene. Right. And he decides he's gonna he's gonna roll the dice and write up the request for an arrest warrant

and a request for his DNA and just see if a magistrate will sign off on it. So he writes it up. He takes it. And the magistrate's like so glad that the case is moving forward that she's like, finally, and signs off on it. It's Ray Bob's birthday that day. He's like, best birthday present ever. At this point, he's gotten super close to the Belkin family.

And he feels super close to Amber because she looks like just like his daughter. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. OK. And so this case is super personal for him. And he talks about that on this episode of Dateline. He's like, you can't do that with every case because it will tear you apart. But I couldn't keep myself from doing it in this case. I was way too close to it. And so it's his birthday. He gets the best news ever.

They've signed off on an arrest warrant and they've signed off on a warrant to get Giovanni's DNA. So he's driving. He's going to go serve these warrants. And he gets a call from his sergeant. And his sergeant's like, you're not going to like this. I don't want you to say anything. Oh, no. You got to squash those warrants. Why? The DA says we don't have enough to prosecute.

He doesn't want you to execute the warrants at this time. Oh. You got to bury him. And Ray Bob is crushed. Yeah. And so there's nothing he can do. Get Joe to wear a wire. So what he does is he's like, fine.

All right. If I can't do that,'m gonna watch him and so he calls up his buddies on swat and has them set up outside of giovanni's house and just watch him in like a conspicuous scare the shit out of him way yeah or i yeah like just monitors behavior yeah he can know you're there whatever and so sometime in the meantime i think actually before he calls swat he actually ends up um he still has the the warrant for the dna and so he's like i'm gonna go do that warrant and so he goes and he shows up at giovanni's house and he's got the warrant for his dna and giovanni immediately acts as if he's under arrest for murder he like tells his

wife he's going away oh it's like a huge tell he just is like deflated immediately and then he finds out it's just for his DNA he gives his DNA sample and then refuses to say anything else and so they let he they had taken him down to the station to get his DNA and then they let him go go back home and then that's when they set up the SWAT so SWAT is watching him and they call up Ray Bob and they're like this dude is loading everything he owns into a car right now yeah and Ray Bob's like motherfucker this guy is fleeing town I just took a day turns out I'm a hundred percent a murderer and so Ray Bob rushes over there and catches him like right as they're pulling out the driveway

and does like hey guys where you going yeah he does a traffic stop and he's like hey where are you headed and he's like oh we're just moving to laredo oh are you now and he's like oh just just today you're you're moving to laredo he's like yeah oh yeah we've had this planned and he's like oh uh-huh uh-huh so just great awesome there's nothing they can do oh shit oh so he leaves the the man that ray bob is sure murdered amber belkin leaves town and there's nothing he can do about it and the case just stops there's no moving forward with it because the d.a refuses to prosecute on the evidence that they have currently there's no way to really

gather any more evidence they need someone to get first-hand information they need a confession that's really the only thing that's going to secure this case at this point yeah but that's not going to happen and then months go by no progress amber's parents are getting so frustrated because nothing's happening the whole city of san antonio has become just beyond frustrated they couldn't solve this this case and ray bob gets a call from a woman who has quite the story to tell about giovanni rivera is Veronica Rivera. Oh. Giovanni's wife. Okay. So she comes in and she is a mess. She is crying.

She's bawling. She has had just this huge ordeal with Giovanni. So she and Giovanni met when she was in high school and she became pregnant with his child while she was in high school and their families forced them to marry. Yeah. And she said from the minute that they got married,

it was a terrible marriage. He was sexually abusive, verbally abusive. He would, like, duct tape her hands behind her back and force her to have sex with him while their baby was in the room. Oh, God. Yeah. I mean, he would just, like, demand sex constantly. And she said it was just a terrible marriage.

A terrible marriage. One day, she remembered in January of 2007 that they were watching the news together. And there was the story of Amber being murdered inside the EB Games. And she was like, oh, my gosh, that's the store you used to work at. That's your manager. Mm-hmm. And Giovanni was like, huh? What?

Oh, yeah. Let's change the channel. Like, no interest whatsoever. Like, hey, let's check out those cowboys. See how those cowboys are doing. Like, no. Yeah, no. And that struck her as very odd.

Yeah. Because, yeah, like, that's a place you used to work. It's your manager. It's your manager. Yeah. Because, yeah, like that's a place you used to work. It's your manager. It's your manager. Yeah. If you don't have any involvement in that case, you are going to be like watching everything you can about it. What the hell happened?

Of course. Yes. I feel like that's just human nature. Of course it is. Yeah. Someone you know gets murdered. Yeah. Yeah.

You're going to know the details. Yeah. Because it's just like human nature to be like for people to tie themselves to tragedies. Be like, oh my gosh, I was at that quick trip one time three years ago, and then someone was murdered there today. Yeah, like, it could have been me! Three years earlier.

I mean, I just feel like that's human nature. And instead, he is like, yeah, no, let me change the channel. No, I don't know anything about that. What? Huh? I'd love to see some new commercials i haven't seen before yes no he doesn't say anything else about the case he's not interested in it whatever fast forward to fall of that year and a detective comes and knocks at the door and they're like um it's like very early in the morning this is when ray bob came to get the dna sample it's very early in the morning. This is when Ray Bob came to get the DNA sample. It's very early in the morning.

They were asleep. They were awoken by the knock on the door. Giovanni got up. And when he went to see who it was, he came back and he's like, it's the police. And Veronica's like, what are the police doing here?

And he's like, they think I murdered someone. And she's like, what? Why would they think that you murdered someone and he's like because i murdered someone oh fuck yeah and so he's like i'm gonna i'm gonna be going away like i think they've got me and so she her mind is immediately like oh there was an altercation like right at the bar like something like. Like that's immediately what comes to mind. And then she finds out that it, that that's not the case that they want him in the,

in the Amber Belkin murder. And she's like, holy shit. And so, you know, he doesn't get arrested. Then he comes home and he's like, we're moving to Laredo. And she's like, what, what do you mean we're moving to Laredo? And he's like, we have to move. We have to move right now. And she's like, I don't want to move to Laredo.

So here's the significance about moving to Laredo and he's like we have to move we have to move right now and she's like i don't want to move to laredo so here's the significance about moving to laredo laredo is a border town so like if the police tracked him down and came to arrest him he could very easily more easily than when where they were right then when they were yeah crossover into mexico and it be much harder to arrest him okay that was the significance of moving to laredo okay so she's like we're moving he's like we're moving to laredo today and she's like i don't want to go to laredo and he's like we are moving to laredo today and so she's like okay and she's like they're like packing the stuff up and she's like so you do you want to talk more about this thing this morning? Uh-huh. So you said you murdered someone. And he's like, yeah.

And she's like, why? Why would you do that? What? And he's like, we needed the money. Oh, come on. And she's like, we didn't need anything. No. And.

And so. They moved to Laredo. We needed money. So I had to murder someone. Yeah. We needed money, so I had to murder someone? Yeah, we needed the money. Yes. It had just been Christmas. They were super broke.

They weren't going to be able to make rent. And so he took it in his hands to get some money to pay rent and then get some stuff that he could sell to make more money. So they moved to Laredoo and things just are horrible and finally veronica decides she's had enough and she tells giovanni she wants a divorce and he's like oh you're gonna divorce me i'd be scared shitless and she was and she was scared shit yeah okay and he's like oh you're gonna divorce me and she's like i can't live like this like i i can't i can't do this and he's like don't leave me don't leave me you know in the meantime she had been telling him that he needed

to turn himself in and she'd like get him talked into it and then his mother would talk him out of it and be like you can't leave your kids you'll never see your kids if you go to prison and all of this and i'll never get to see you and whatever and so finally she's like i had enough she's like i cannot live like this and so she tells him she wants a divorce and she's going to move back to her mother's and whatever and so that he's like go on a drive with me like let's just talk this out no and so she gets in a car with him he drives her out into the middle of nowhere texas no and then he parks the car and he locks the doors and he's like suddenly very pissed and he reach he reaches over and grabs a gun out of the glove compartment.

And Veronica is just like bawling at this point. And she's like, please don't kill me. Please don't kill me. And he's like, I'm not going to kill you. Just do what I say. And so he forces her at gunpoint into the backseat of the car. And he rapes her. And then he gets out of the car. And he pulls her out of the car and he rapes her and then she he gets out of the car and he pulls her

out of the car and he gives her the gun and he says you need to kill me what yeah and she's like she's like i can't kill you i'm not like you i can't do that yeah and he's like you have to kill me you have to kill me today and she's like i can't kill you if i kill you i will go to prison for killing you and our children will have no parents yeah and like that like struck him as like logical and like was like okay fine but you're gonna go to your mom's and i'm gonna disappear you're never gonna see me again and she's like okay so she like gets the like they put this poor oh this poor woman yes so somehow he's like you're right our kids can't be you know parentless she he they get back in the car she puts the gun back in the glove compartment he drives her to her mother's and drops her and the kids off and then he disappears it was like immediately

after he dropped her off with her mother that she called ray bob and made the statement holy shit yeah yeah on this episode keith morrison's like what did that feel like when he dropped you off at your mom's house and she's like felt like i was like each step that i walked closer to the house i was like one step closer to freedom it was almost over it was almost over if i could just get in those doors yeah it would be over wouldn't you be like he's waiting for the bullet yes yes and so she tells police all of this this secures the arrest warrant only giovanni rivera nowhere to be found yeah he's disappeared off the face of the earth they put him on the u.s marshal's 15 most wanted fugitives list and finally in like the fall of 2008 they track him down in mexico. Where? I don't know where he was in Mexico.

So they track him down and they take him into custody in Mexico and they've got him sitting in a jail cell in Mexico and he spills the whole story. You know, he always just puts others first, Kristen. Okay. And his family really needed money.

And so he had to sacrifice himself to take care of his family's needs and so he went that day to that sounds like he sacrificed amber uh yeah he went there to that eb games that day to just get some money and some stuff to sell to be able to take care of his family. Only there was one problem. Amber recognized him immediately. So he got the money, he tied her up, and she was crying, and he's like, don't do anything and I won't hurt you. And he was getting ready to leave when she reached for the phone.

And he was like, I couldn't let her call anyone. And so he grabbed the bag and held it tight over her face until she died. I do not buy that he was willing to let her live. I don't either. Yeah. I don't either. I don't buy it at all.

But I do buy that he's just a friendly family man. Mm-hmm. His only crime is that he rapes his wife. What a sweetie. So I think this is super interesting. So initially, authorities wanted to seek the death penalty against him. But Mexico will not extradite if the person is facing the death penalty. Really?

Because they don't have the death penalty in Mexico. So they had to drop the death penalty to be able to extradite him back to the death penalty. Really? Yes. Because they don't have the death penalty in Mexico. So they had to drop the death penalty to be able to extradite him back to the United States. That's fascinating. I had no idea. Isn't that fascinating? I didn't know that either. Huh. Okay.

Yeah. So they had to drop the death penalty. And then this thing sat for like a year while the prosecution and the defense went back and forth trying to make a deal. Because Giovanni wanted to plead guilty. He didn't want to go to trial. He just wanted this to be over. But he also didn't want to spend the rest of his life in prison.

Oh, well, we want all the things, don't we? Yeah. And so finally, the prosecution agreed to drop it from capital murder to first degree murder, which meant that he would become eligible for parole after 30 years. degree murder which meant that he would become eligible for parole after 30 years so he was ultimately sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole after 30 years he also pled guilty to two charges of sexual assault um against veronica okay um so he got 20 years for each of those but those will run concurrently okay i don't like any Okay. I don't like any of this. I don't like any of it either. So finally, at his sentencing, Amber's friends and family were able to make some statements.

And Giovanni just, like, stared at them and nodded his head and made no statement of his own. Lee said that all she wanted was to go there and have Giovanni say that he was sorry. Say, you know, I'm so sorry. She didn't deserve this. You guys didn't deserve this. Yeah. But she didn't get that. No. Randy said to Giovanni, Amber was our soul. You didn't kill one person. You killed three. Oh. One of Amber's friends got up and said, I'm glad you're not going to be put to death. I want you to suffer every minute of every day. And I want you to go to sleep at night and have Amber's body and what you did to her be the last thing you see. Yeah.

As I mentioned, Amber's parents, she was her their only child and they were completely destroyed by her loss. But her two very close friends have become like adopted daughters to them. Amber's parents and them remain very close, and both of her two friends have had daughters that they named after Amber. That's really cool. Yeah. Oh. Giovanna Rivera will become eligible for parole in 2038.

Boo. Boo is38. Boo. Boo is right. Did Giovanni's friend get the $100,000 reward? You know, I don't know. I couldn't find if anybody got the reward. That's interesting. That is interesting. I did try and find if anybody had received the reward.

I feel like he should get it. He should get some of it. Yeah. I think the wife should get some, too. The wife should get some of it yeah sure the wife should get some the wife should get that's what i was thinking they should both get some they should probably they should split the reward yeah because the wife ultimately led to the arrest but he's the one that first tipped off tip them off to gm yeah and i think that'd be really difficult to go and you know go against your best friend but ultimately best friends that big of a shithead well yeah i mean that's true but wouldn't you you're i feel like your natural instinct would

be like to be like to try and defend it and deny it in your head you'd be like no my best friend would never do that it's hard for me to put myself in this situation because i feel like if you murdered someone yeah i would probably agree that it was justified honestly like if you did it i'd probably be like i mean yeah first of all you wouldn't murder someone for two grand and no no it's a video games yeah no i believe that i heard that when police initially came to the house that he was literally playing one of the video game systems that he stole from Amber's store.

Well, you know, he's a giving man. He's a family man and you know, he stole entertainment for himself for the family. Yeah. Norman, do you have questions for us from our patrons? Ooh.

Jillster wants to know, do you prefer cinnamon rolls or cornbread with your chili? Ooh. This is a Kansas thing. I know. People will be confused by this. This is a Midwest thing or is it specifically Kansas? It's a Midwest thing.

Yeah, it's a Midwest thing. Confirm that it exists in Minnesota as well. Yes. So eating cinnamon rolls with your chili. You don't mix the two together. It's a side dish for your chili. But it's delicious. So I actually heard a rumor that this actually started because when they started chili for school lunches,

nobody would pick the chili. And so they paired it with cinnamon rolls so that kids would pick it and it didn't go to waste that's really got them i love it yes i hope that's true because i do too so um i actually i don't know how so i always make cornbread with my chili because i like to eat cornbread in my chili yeah i have a very specific method put your cornbread in the bottom, you put your chili on top, and then you just smother it with cheese. Blue cheese. Oh, God. I can smell that from here.

I knew that would kill you. Yeah, I wouldn't be mad with either, but I do cornbread. Yeah. You do cornbread? Oh, yeah. I've never had the cinnamon roll with chili. Oh, my gosh. I would love to try it, though, because I bet that is good. It's so good. you would do cornbread oh yeah i've never had the cinnamon roll with chili i would i would love to try though because i bet that is good it's so good

erin jay boo wants to know y'all have made me want to visit kansas city in your surrounding area is there any touristy things that i should for sure catch what is so yeah let's name some uh some of our favorite things to do in old kc i think the nelson's super cool the nelson art museum yeah boring really wow i'm not much of an art museum it's a good it's a good museum it's a good museum yeah if you. If you like art. There's like a really cool Egypt exhibit. There's like modern art

and like Renaissance art. I mean, there's all the arts. There's Van Gogh. Yeah. And like somebody found a bug stuck in one like last year. Yeah.

One in the Nelson. They have giant shuttlecocks. Why are you looking at me? We're looking at your giant shuttle just hangs out sometimes we have really good food in kansas city great food um what i feel like we're doing i really we're not we'd be terrible on the tourism board for sure world war one museum oh the world war one boring Oh, it's good. History. Toy and Miniature Museum.

I haven't been since they remodeled it. I haven't been either. And is that the thing? That's the thing? Yes, that's Nell Donnelly's house. Nell Donnelly's house, right? Yeah. We should go. We should go.

Why aren't we going there? Why aren't we there right now? Live episode from Nell Donnelly's house. Ooh. That would be amazing. And the background noise would be horrendous. Yeah. Yeah.

Kay Burns wants to know, what would your intro music be? So you know on wrestling when they walk out and they like blare some music? Or like baseball players come out to walk out? I know my baseball walk-up song. What is it? The Stroke, Billy Squire, because I think it would be funny. And... Everybody, have you heard?

You don't know this song? No. Keep going. That's all I know right now. I don't know what mine would be. It's funny because a really good swing is called a stroke. It's also kind of dirty. If you're in the game,

then the stroke's the word. Okay. Don't take no rhythm. Don't take no style. You don't know this song? I mean, it does sound familiar. Andrew Lippins says, in honor of Saffra Gray and I's honeymoon

what is your favorite type of theme park ride? Okay I have always liked is that a bug up there? Oh no We've got a stink bug Stink bug Oh my god

it's another stink bug The stink bug returns Stink bug epidemic of 2019 um okay so i always like well it's called the detonator here but it's um i hate that it's the ride where you like get in it's like a big a big cylinder and you're in seats around the bottom and then it shoots you up to the top like faster than the speed of sound and then you vomit and it brings you back down yeah so i feel like that's terrifying because at the top there is a moment where you think your harness is for sure not going to work because you've come out of your seat a little bit and like you think you're just flying to the moon right that minute

yeah so here's a funny story my dad went on that ride at worlds of fun and they, so they put you in, your harness comes down and they buckle the harness. And then they also like latch the harness into place and a green light comes on like above your seat. So that means you're good to go. And so my dad was in it and like, they like latched his thing and his green light came on. And then like, as soon as the guy turned around, his green light came off, like went off.

And he was like, excuse me. Oh turned around his green light came off like went off and he was like excuse me oh no my green light went off and the guy's like yeah you're fine well and so like they did the ride anyway without his green light being on my dad said he never held on so tight like he crossed his arms on that harness and he held on that thing he thought for sure it was coming open and he was flying out at the top. Oh, my favorite? Teacups. Teacups? Yes, I love that. So, I'm afraid of things that go too fast.

And I don't like the sensation of being dropped. So, I like a ride where you control how fast it goes. I do not like any theme park rides. You don't like any? You like teacups. Makes you dizzy. You like standing in line for cotton candy? Okay, the one ride I actually don't mind is, you know, it's like a boat and it goes way up and then it swings the other way.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's pretty lame. I think the one at World of Fun is called the Sea Dragon. Yeah, I think that's entertaining. It's pretty lame, but. I think the one at World of Fun is called the Sea Dragon. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's entertaining. I like water park rides. Okay, what about those, like, 4D rides where you go in, you sit in the seats, and they play, like, an interactive thing. And you, like, move all over the place. I like those.

Sometimes you get to shoot aliens. Nah, I don't like those. Really? Makes me dizzy, nauseous. Norm is no fun in an amusement park. Yeah, it's not. And I'm only a little fun in an amusement park. Poor Peanut shaking.

I know. Peanut is shaking right now. She's so scared. There's a truck outside delivering some stuff. Oh, that's what she's scared of? Yeah. She has been scared of trucks since the beginning of time. Look at she.

Ooh, this is a good one. Heather wants to hear about our host's worst date okay i have dated so little but i do have one that's funny and i i'm not i don't even really it wasn't even really a date but it was when i was in high school and it was like our group of guy friends right um bleep the name but it was do you remember him he was friend vaguely yeah okay so we were instant messaging uh-huh and he was like hey do you want to go to the movies i was like yeah i'll go to the movies and like there was a movie out that we wanted to see um and so i specifically what do you look like uh-huh okay okay gotcha um i feel like they gave him x-lags at one of their parties no so this was your dream guy yeah so anyway so i'm like yeah i'll go to the

movies with you but i was like i didn't want it to be a date because i just like i didn't think i didn't i wasn't sure if i was into him i was pretty sure i wasn't yeah and so i met him at the movies and i got there a little bit early and i bought my ticket before he got there so that I could it would for sure like not be a date okay so we went and saw the movie um Gothica with Halle Berry it's a scary movie okay and so was it just you and him yeah it was just me and him okay yeah if it was more than that I wouldn't have had any risk of it being thought that it was a date like it was a group of us no it was just me and him okay and so we're sitting in the movie and there's like this jump scare where someone like opens a barn and an owl flies out. And he jumped

so like big. I turned and kind of like snickered at him. And he like looked at me and then like zoom looked straight forward. He was so embarrassed that he'd like jumped. And I was like, mm-mm, like nope definitely not into you brandy to be fair a snicker from you is probably a cackle for anyone else right that's probably true but if you can't handle a little laugh because you jumped you're immediately embarrassed by it absolutely not listen if you can't handle a little laugh brandy's not the girl for you so i decided then and there i was like this is not gonna be a thing yeah and so we get out of the boofy and I was like, oh, I really like doing this.

He's like, yeah, it's all right. And so we get out to the parking lot and he's like, okay, yeah, I think I'm going to go to my car. And I was like, yeah, cool. You know, he's like, I'm parked over there. And I was like, okay, I'm parked over there. And he's like, that's a cool place to park. No.

And I was like, yeah yeah was he making a joke i think he was just really awkward cool place to park so my worst day yeah this was in college i met this guy at a club he was super good looking yeah like very too good looking maybe a little too good looking maybe a little arrogant yeah so like i think it was like our second date or something and he was running very late yeah and not like oh he texted that he was running late but just like you know we're supposed to get together i don't know seven it's like 7 30 so i'm all done up looking so good and i'm like man i guess this is what it feels like to be stood up and so you know at the time i was living with like a million other yeah so you know

my my friend anna who was like total sweetie pie was like, well, you don't know that you've been stood up. Like, he could be dead in a ditch somewhere. And I was like, yeah, hopefully he is. So I texted the guy. Yeah. And was just like, hey, are you okay? And he was like, yeah, I'll be there in 10 minutes. So, like, 15 minutes later, he shows up, and I am pissed.

Yeah. minutes so like 15 minutes later he shows up and i am pissed yeah so pissed that like when the doorbell rings i immediately changed into pajamas or did i change into pajamas or i can't remember i remember i changed outfits and bottom line i was like yeah we're not we're not going out yeah yeah i made other plans so he was like seriously seriously so then he left and then you know that was very intriguing so then like this is such a dumb story rather than just be like i'm done with this guy yeah which is how i felt he was like oh you're mad you're mad you know let's let's go out again let's go out again oh you're mad and You're mad. You know, let's go out again. Let's go out again. Oh, you're mad. And for some reason, I didn't want him to think that I was mad.

So I agreed to another date. I feel like that's a girl thing for sure. This is so stupid. I mean, just like, I should have just been like, yeah, I didn't like that you were late and didn't apologize. Yeah. So goodbye. Yeah, I was mad.

Bye. Thanks. Have a nice life. So like, it was a Saturday and it was surprisingly warm for that day he picks me up and he's like hey i was thinking maybe we could go to the beach like the north shore and i was like oh my gosh that'd be awesome because like people who have a car in boston are like unicorn so it's like yeah let's go and he's like okay how do you get there this was before gps and you're like i don't fucking know yeah so for the record i have a terrible sense of direction so i was like i have no idea and then he started to get kind of annoyed

with me that i was in a walking gps anyway we finally get there. And of course, we got very lost. And we didn't know each other or like each other well enough for it to be like a fun adventure. So we're both kind of annoyed. We finally get to the beach. It's now darkish, coldish. And we parked. We decided we wanted to go someplace to eat. and we kept walking and places were closed and finally off in the distance we saw like a really cute like italian restaurant and so we were like oh okay yeah yeah let's just go there so we get closer and closer and the place looks grosser and grosser but it's the only place. Oh, my gosh. So we go up. I still remember the guy behind the counter.

He was wearing this greasy, nasty tank top. Oh, no. And he was super rude. So we took our nasty pizza and sat out on the beach, which was a gross beach. Like, you know, trash everywhere. At one point, a gust of wind came and i got smacked by his slice of pizza because he set it down and um i'm debating telling this next part have i ever told you this okay so this next part is the worst part so now now it's super dark yeah super cold and i'm still wearing an outfit that's like

oh a warm spring day yeah i look like a hoker so we're walking back to the car it's a very long walk because we had passed so many places just trying to get to this crappy pizza and he's like i have to pee and i was like okay okay and he's like i i really have to pee okay and again i'm like oh okay so finally like we came up to some pillars. Yeah. And he's like, I'm going to go behind these pillars. I'm like, great. I'm standing alone on a street corner, and my date is pissing behind a column. Of course. Some gross guys came up in a car like, hey.

And then my date comes out on his white horse, tucking his dick back in his pants. It was terrible. We did not go out again. Sure. Norm, you got a story? Yeah, what's your worst date? I have to think about it.

You've had 35 minutes. I've been engrossed by Kristen's story. Did you know that story? I feel like you've told me that before. I'm sure I've told you. I don't remember the pizza hit in your face, though. It didn't hit my face. It was more like my side. But yeah, it was terrible. It was't hit my face. It was more like my side. But, yeah, it was terrible.

Hmm. It was an awful date. You're kind of like Brandy, where your dating experience is... Yeah, I don't have much. Yeah. I never really had a bad... Not like that. I've never had a bad date. Alright, that wraps up questions.

Let's do some good questions. Let's do some Supreme Court inductions. What is that? Oh, well, you see, Brandi, if you pay $7 a month on Patreon, you get inducted onto this very

fine podcast. Ooh. And you know what? This week, we're doing something a little special. We're reading

names and favorite movie snacks. Excellent. What would you like for people to do for this week's Supreme

Court Inductions? Everyone please stand and solemnly do the Macarena. Doreen the Troublemaker. Popcorn. Extra butter. Riley Adams. Red Vines, baby. Travion.

Sourstraws. Jamie. Peanut M&Ms. Summer. red vines baby travion sour straws jamie peanut m&ms summer m&ms with popcorn so they get all melty and stuff ariela velez popcorn pickles and snow caps oh god i hope not all together okay and this is very funny because david and i have talked about snow caps a bunch and we're like, who the fuck eats snow caps? They're very good. Ariella and me, Kristen, you eat snow caps. I've never had a snow cap.

I've never like gotten them. Yeah. You don't go to the movies and you're like, Oh, there's no caps this time. Cause Ariella's bought all of them. Snow caps are good, but it is a candy.

You don't usually go out and look for it. Yeah. Like dots. I love dots. I love Dots. I saw Dots the other day in the store. But it was a big box of Dots. I was like, I don't know if I'm ready for that. You'd have to really commit.

The Nightingale Center? Yeah, it was a big one. Mary Jane. Red and blue mixed icy and Reese's Pieces. I enjoy a good Reese's Pieces. That's a good movie snack. I'm so glad that I got to read that and not someone who says Reese's Pieces. I hate when people say Reese's Pieces. I hate that. Reese's Pieces. That's a good movie snack. I'm so glad that I got to read that and not someone who says Reese's Pieces. I hate when people say Reese's Pieces.

I hate that. Reese's Pieces? I hate that. Kate Reese. Peanut Butter M&M's. Oh, my favorite M&M. We had to do a special trip to the gas station because you had never tried one. I'm sorry, freak.

I like the pretzel M&M's. What a freak. Keep it in the circus. Wendy Z. Coke, popcorn, and all the chocolate. Welcome to the Supreme Court. Thank you guys for all of your support. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please head on over to our social media.

We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, YouTube. Head on over to our Patreon, patreon.com slash LGTC podcast. Remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And then leave us a rating. Leave us a review on Apple podcasts. And then join us next week. Hold on. Hold on.

What did I forget? Special thank you. Oh, yes forget? Special thank you to... Oh, yes! So special thank you to Jen and James. They both sent us Twizzlers. Oh, Jen, James, thank you. We have been snacking away. And I gotta say, I think between them and Mark and Kathy,

we are all set on Twizzler nibs. We appreciate you guys for doing the listener homework. Are you telling people not to send us nibs anymore? Yeah, what is your deal? I don't want people to feel obligated. Okay, so here's the deal. Here's the real story, guys. Yeah, tell the real story.

We're feeling really guilty about asking you guys to send us nibs because the shipping on these things are ridiculous. Yeah, we... We really do not want you to spend your hard-earned money shipping us nibs. We love the nibs, and we appreciate them them so much and we have eaten all of them. Yeah, we are very, very grateful, but I... But it makes us feel really guilty when we see how much the shipping is on these things. I'm going to go ahead and break away from you two and say,

please continue to send me the audio engineer kingdom. Wow, wow. Norman does not care about shipping costs. I do not feel guilty one bit. Word of advice, please send it USPS first class. It's a lot cheaper than priority. Send all candy to me now because they don't want it anymore. Please do not feel like we don't appreciate it.

We appreciate it so much. Yes. We hate that you're spending your hard-earned money on shipping. Yes. So again, thank you for all of your support and be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary.

And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from the Washington Post, CNN, and WITN. And I got my info from the Dateline episode, Everything She Knew, as well as articles for My San Antonio and KN, nope, KNS5. KENS5, huh? For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.