Let's Go To Court! - 93: A Psychic & Nightmares in a Mansion

Episode Date: October 30, 2019

Jude Deveraux is a prolific romance writer. She’s a New York Times Bestseller and the author of more than 40 novels. One day, the celebrated novelist sought out the services of a psychic named Rose Marks. The two bonded immediately, and pretty soon, Jude found herself forking over millions upon millions of dollars. But was Rose really a psychic? Or was she a con artist? Then Kristin tells us about a horrific quadruple murder in a high-end Washington, D.C. neighborhood. When firefighters arrived at the Savopoulos family home, they though they were dealing with a house fire. When they got inside, they realized that the home was a crime scene. Savvas and Amy Savopoulos, their 10-year-old son Philip, and the family’s housekeeper, Veralicia Figueroa had all been retrained, beaten, and murdered. But who could have done such a thing? Investigators hit a breakthrough when they discovered leftover Domino’s pizza. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Murder in the Mansion” episode of 20/20 “DNA, Facebook usage and a sword among the evidence as D.C. quadruple murder trial continues,” by Keith L. Alexander for The Washington Post “Suspect in Savopoulos family killings takes the witness stand,” The Washington Post “Suspect in D.C. quadruple killing testifies he was lured to the scene, never saw victims,” The Washington Post “Prosecutor tells jurors Daron Wint is guilty in D.C. quadruple killing, even if someone else was involved,” by Keith L. Alexander for The Washington Post In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “The Psychic, The Novelist and the $17 Million Scam” by Robert Andrew Powell, Reader’s Digest “Florida Psychic and Her Family Cheated Clients of $40 Million, Prosecutors Say” by Lizette Alvarez, The New York Times “Author Jude Deveraux Was Suicidal After Losing $20 Million to Fortune Telling Con” by Christina NG, ABC News “Judge scolds feds over alleged misconduct in $25 million ‘psychic fraud’ case” by Paula McMahon, The Sun Sentinel “Psychic accused in $25 million fraud says she is portrayed ‘as some kind of monster’” by Paula McMahon, The Sun Sentinel “Imprisoned ‘psychic’ testifies she regrets going to trial in $17M fortunetelling fraud” by Paula McMahon, The Sun Sentinel “Rose Marks” wikipedia.org

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about a nightmare in a mansion.

And I'll be talking about a psychic. Or is she a con artist? You decide. Already decided she's a con artist. Done. We've got a very special offer on the table. Oh, we do? We sure do.

Is it for $7 a month you could become a supreme court justice or hear me out if seven dollars is just breaking the bank for two dollars a month you can get on our patreon right now and you can vote on our future episode topic what are the choices kristin the choices are and brandy's pissed about this art he heists? Or mob bosses? Or mob bosses? Depending on how you say it. So what do you guys want to hear about it? And I know it's going to be art heists. Oh boy.

Yeah, when Kristen suggested this to me, I was like, but then I could have to talk about an art heist. You don't have to go on an art heist. You just have to talk about one. Okay, fine. I can handle it get over it all right yeah all right wait how do they do that they get on patreon.com backslash lgtc podcast do you have to say backs backs i almost said can you say it no i said backsplash which is the lovely tile behind my sink here's the thing thing, guys. For $2 a month, you get to vote on episode topics.

You get the occasional episode update for $5 a month. That's where you get bonus episodes. Isn't it a forward slash? All right. No. All right, troublemaker. They'll find it, okay?

Hang on. I'm gonna confirm. Oh, Lord. Lord Almighty. Yeah, it's a forward slash. Well, fuck. Well, okay. All of these people

Have been trying to find Our Patreon Kristen And they haven't been Able to get there It's gonna be flooded now With all these people Who are like Oh it's a forward slash

Uh $5 level You get the discord You get All the stuff you get At the $2 level Plus you get bonus episodes $7 level You get inducted

Into the Supreme card Plus you get a sticker and a card it's really cool it's a whole thing join up today okay i gotta come clean kristin what i ate way too many chips and did the lunch and i'm so full right now we are both so full we're both kind of miserable right now we ate way way too much. Come and clean. That's a Hilary Duff song. Oh, yeah. Let the rain fall down.

It's on the... In the face. Da-da-da-da-da. La Chale. And at the end, I'm coming clean. Isn't that on the hills? Yes. Yeah.

Is that the hills theme song? The hills theme song, I think, yeah. Might be right. You know what song Norman loves to sing? What? That Jessica Simpson song from back in the the day nothing but a t-shirt on

never felt so beautiful okay let's talk about uh psychic or a con. Chris, in this case, this is my gift to you. My case is my gift to you. Oh, excellent. My case is fucking terrible. Oh, good. I will say this case is kind of obscure. There wasn't a ton of news coverage on it.

I've tried to fill in the holes where I can, but if it gets a little murky, I'm sorry. Okay. Okay. We'll see if we forgive you at the end of the episode first of all I have to give a shout out to my friend um Sherry who is she's really my parents friend but she's a friend of the family and she's on my bowling team and she pointed me in the direction of this case that I had never heard of so you know what I'm so used to you calling random journalists your friend who you've never met she's an actual friend yeah this is shocking a friend of mine yes i know this person in real

life i will see her tonight okay jude devereaux ever heard of her kristin sounds made up like blanche devereaux while she sounds like one of blanche's relatives she's actually a world renowned romance novelist. Oh! I thought you might have heard of her. I don't read a lot of romance, so no. She's written more than 70 books. Damn.

Nearly half of which have appeared on the New York Times bestsellers list. You know what I learned the other day? What? The New York Times bestsellers is like a group of panelists. It's not like how many units you sell. So like a group of people select to put books on the bestseller list. It didn't actually sell a lot. My whole life has been a lie.

I don't think that's entirely accurate. Where'd you learn this? Source. Today I learned on Reddit. Wow. Yeah, I don't think that's entirely right. I thought it was certain bookstores. Well, I am the fact checker, so let me check.

Yeah, fact check it, Norm. Fact check your own fact. Among her titles are A Knight in Shining Armor, Remembrance, The Summer House, The Mulberry Tree. Ooh, what happened under that tree? And Wild Orchids, just to name a few. I don't think they're like bodice rippers, but... They sound pretty...

Okay, so here, if you've ever been in an airport bookstore, you've definitely seen her books. May I look her up real quick? Yeah. Okay. But don't read anything. No, no, no, no. Do you ever... Oh, yeah.

Okay, I've got some more info on the bestsellers. Oh, what do you got? What do you got? The list is based on a proprietary method that uses sales figures, other data, and internal guidelines that are unpublished. How the Times compiles the list is a trade secret. In 1983, as part of a legal argument, the Times stated that the list is not mathematically objective, but rather editorial content. Yeah, which includes, like, sales figures. It's both.

So what you're saying is you guys are both correct. Yes. Now kiss and make up. Come here, baby. Oh, gross. That's how we kiss. No, like lizards. Don't judge us.

Okay, are you looking at her? Are you seeing her? Yeah, I see. In all, Jude has sold over 50 million copies of her books. Yeah. Not bad. She's a big fucking deal. Goals, goals, all type of goals.

So how is it that when Detective Charles Stack tracked Devereaux down to a hotel during his Operation Crystal Ball investigation, one that began in 2007 and finally ended with a 61 count indictment in 2011. She was nearly broke and suicidal. Well, to answer that, we'll have to travel back in time to 1991. But before we do that, here is what Jude Devereaux had to say about Detective Stack. He is the true hero in all of this. When he found me, after much searching, I was in a hotel room, days away from suicide. No made-up hero in any of my romantic novels is as great as Charlie is. He has saved a lot of us from what those gypsies did. Whoa. Gypsies did. Whoa.

Gypsies. Get ready for a ride, Kristen. Now, the year is 1991. And Jude Devereaux is on top of her game. When it came to being a novelist, that is. She was super successful. She owned multiple properties around the country at that time, including this beautiful apartment in New York City. But things were not going well in her personal life. She was in a very unhappy marriage. She wanted out of it, but she also really wanted to have a child. And so she was like battling with that. And one day, she was walking through New York City. And just next to the Plaza

Hotel was there, there's little sandwich board sign advertising a psychic. And so she's like, I'm just gonna go in and just, you know, see what they have to say. Have you ever gone to a psychic? No, I've never gone to a psychic. Neither have I. I've always wanted to, though. Yeah, never gone. So she she goes in she's taken to this little room there's no windows it's very small just a couple chairs and a little table and she meets with this woman who goes by the name joyce um her real name is rose marks we will find out

okay but i believe she went practiced like her fortune teller under the name Joyce Mitchell. Anyway, so real name, Rose Marks. So she sits down with Rose and she starts to complain about her love life, her marriage, she talks about how terrible it is, and that her husband is super controlling. It's just a brutal relationship. relationship. And she thought that there was no happiness for her in this life anymore. And she was seriously considering at that time, ending her life. She was like very much on the edge of, of suicidal thoughts and tendencies. But Rose was like, No, no, I can give you everything you want. I can give you a peaceful divorce. And she was like, that was like exactly what Jude Devereaux needed to hear was like, that's all she wanted was just like some peace in her life. And how can a psychic give her? Okay, we will get there. It's all about the work, Kristen.

Okay. So that was like, those were like the magic words to Jude Devereaux. I can give you a peaceful divorce. Because that was what she wanted more than anything at that time. And so the work, as Rose called it, began. To begin, she had to give over a personal item something that had value and so she gave over a writing notebook so notes on a novel that she was working on or whatever and so rose would then interpret the energy that was that that item was rose like

could you give me something that could be more easily pawned off so so rose reads the energy and it's very negative if you would believe it yeah that's okay rose can fix it the root of the evil in jude's life that was giving off this evil energy was of course money and so what she needed to do was give money to Rose. Initially the amount that she requested was $1,200. She needed to give her that money and she would cleanse it of the negative energy

and then return it to Jude. So it wasn't like a payment. She would give it all back. Easy peasy. What's the process for cleaning money? You know, that's a secret. Oh, excuse me. Didn't mean to offend.

That, you know, no one knows but Rose. Okay. So initially Jude gives over, gives up $1,200 and that would be returned, you know, when it was cleansed. Only it wasn't enough. They couldn't get, with that much money, enough they couldn't get with that much money like they couldn't get it cleansed properly gonna need more gonna need more it was just like a few thousand here a few more thousand here you marks needed the energy of some clean money to help her cleanse the other evil money you know makes sense kristin You are kidding me. No. And then when the money wasn't enough, it was like, oh, I need some jewelry.

I need, do you have gold coins? I'll take some gold coins. We'll cleanse those. And Jude was just like, sure, no problem. Yeah. She was completely drawn in to this woman, Rose, because she told her that she, that the energy from this money allowed her to move telepathically into jude devereaux's husband my husband's mind

and see what he was planning as they moved forward towards a divorce you know what this story is giving me a lot of confidence. If this woman can get published. So Jude, at this point, believes everything she's being told. And later she would admit that, yes, when you hear it all, it sounds ludicrous. But you weren't being told it the way she was told it with all the, you know, hubbub and all of that. It spread out over a long period of time yes and so she was she was told by rose that her husband had sold his soul to the devil oh and that this peaceful divorce that she had wanted and that rose had promised it was going to be way more difficult to deliver than she had expected so she was going to need like a million dollars

do that but don't worry you know i'll give you all that back uh-huh and jude took the bait gave her the million dollars and soon before long marx is like jude devere's like personal, trusted confidant. She's giving her advice and everything. She becomes her muse for writing books. She's practically living with her. She's giving her all kinds of advice. And she ends up giving her like a million dollars a year as kind of a flat rate to take care of whatever she needs to take care of.

Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Did Jude not have like a money manager or anyone? Clearly. kind of a flat rate to take care of whatever she needs to take care of. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Did Jude not have like a money manager or anyone who was like, clearly not. Okay. No, here,

the divorce did not go peacefully. It did not go smoothly. Well, he sold his soul to the devil, Brandy. It did not go in Jude's favor at all. So Jude had wanted to hire this very experienced, uh, divorce lawyer. And Rose was like, no, no, no, I've got a really good feeling about this guy. This guy had no

experience in divorce. And he put together this agreement that gave Jude Devereaux's husband almost everything, the property, the cars, and Jude would have to pay his bills well into the future along with all kinds of maintenance. Wow, he sounds like a killer. Yeah. And Marks was like, listen. Rose Marks was like, listen. This is a great deal because it's going to get this thing over with. Sign it and it doesn't matter because your husband is going to be dead within three years

i have seen the future he will be dead in three years wow it's like i don't know this seems like a lot to give up and she's like you are going to get it back and now you are going to have peace but hold on okay so they divorce uh-huh if dies... She won't have to continue paying him if he dies. Okay, but the property is still his. It goes to his heirs. Yeah, probably. I mean, every... Yeah.

Yeah, she won't have to continue paying alimony, but everything else, it's not like it reverts back to her. Mm-hmm. Otherwise, there'd be a lot of dead divorced people out there. Right. More than 20 years later now, he's still very much alive what healthy what

and extremely wealthy this um when this investigation into marks um kind of began they actually looked into this divorce because they were concerned that maybe Rose had like been working against. Yeah, that's what it sounds like. And they found no evidence of collusion. That she was just dumb. Yeah. And that she was just exercising her power over Jude Devereaux. I guess so.

For shits and giggles, I guess. But if you're trying to get someone's name. I know. And you're having her give it all away. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so full right now. Through all of that, though, that shitty divorce and giving up all of her stuff and giving her money,

Jude Devereaux still stayed with Rose Marks. She had this calming effect on her. She just felt like she was at her best when she was with rose marks more than anything in life jude devereaux wanted a baby and rose told her there was no way she was going to be able to conceive one without her help oh yes and she told jude that if she did have a child she had seen the future remember Remember, she's seeing the future. Sure, sure. Her child would fall over her New York apartment's balcony and die.

And so she needed to sell the property. And so Jude did as she was told. She sold the apartment and she gave all of the money from the sale to raise Mark so that she could cleanse it and work on getting jude pregnant no yeah what was jude's deal she truly was like under this woman's spell she just believed everything she said and she what was jude's education level you know i don't know what jude's education no, she went to college. Was it a homeschooled college? No, homeschooled college.

God, she's written a ton of stuff. Yeah. Hang on, hang on, hang on. Yeah, I guess I don't see anything about her education. Mm-mm. Okay, I'm reading too much. All right, all right. Okay. um so now it's like all of her focus is on becoming pregnant that's what jude wants she wants a baby she's divorced at this point so i don't know who she's banging to get pregnant i

that i don't know um but she suffers eight miscarriages over the next few years and rose has an explanation for all of it there's still too much bad energy you need to give me more of your belongings you need to give me more money you can't have all that evil in your life that is what's keeping you from being able to carry a child finally in 1997 jude devereaux gives birth to a healthy baby boy everything is great rose marks has come through on her promise and jude devereaux at that point was 50 years old oh my god birth okay yeah and so jude is convinced that that is the reason that she was able to have this baby because this woman rose marks helped her and made it happen this psychic this fortune teller oh

she said um that once the baby was born rose was like now i need more money to keep him protected and jude said i would have paid anything to protect my son anything and so she just started giving over more and more money to rosemarks but it didn't work oh no in 2005 when jude devereaux's son was eight years old he was riding a dirt bike near their home in north carolina and he was hit by a brand new way for rose marks to take advantage of jude devereaux oh no i can talk to your son in heaven your son is trapped between heaven and hell and i have to talk to him to free him you can talk to him, to free him. You can talk to him through me. And so that just led to... What a fucking monster. Oh my gosh.

Yeah. So she said that at that point, Rose Marks pressured her into writing more books so that she had more money. She said she was crying constantly at this time in her life and she was just like working through all of it, working like writing books all of it because she had all this pressure from marx that she needed more money to keep her son out of the flames oh that was the terminology she used oh god at this point like she can't keep up with the money she's like

running through all of her money she her the quality of her books has gone down dramatically and as the money dwindles so does rosemark's presence in jude devereaux's life weird weird it's like it was all about money the whole time suddenly you know she's really hard to get a hold of. She's not there when Jude needs her because now Jude doesn't have any money to give her. And it was then that really she just like spiraled out of control. That she, you know, became super depressed, super suicidal. And that is what led to her in that hotel room when the detective found her.

the detective found her so that detective started an investigation into rose marks in 2007 after learning of the several complaints over fraudulent psychics in florida so rose marks was the matriarch of a family of gypsies living in Florida. So they were Vlax Roma. I don't know if that's how you pronounce it, but that's like the largest gypsy group in the United States. And her family had come to the United States like in the, oh gosh, I don't know, in the late 19th century. So late 1800s. Okay. Is that how that works, Norm?

19th century is 1800s? Correct. Okay. Yeah. So in the late 1800s, her family had come over from Greece and they practiced very, like, very strong cultural beliefs, like in the gypsy tradition. So kids were taken out of school and Rose practiced all of this kids were taken out of school around eight or nine years old, and they were trained in psychic and intuitive powers like from that, that age. And then they were like trained in the the

business of fortune telling psychic whatever yeah um and so rose marks had grown up in it she her dad had been like the leader of a big group like and and he had been like the guy who negotiated all the dowries in their community and all this stuff. He was like a big deal in their gypsy community. And so this is just how she'd grown up. And then she had like a bunch of kids and then sisters and cousins and whatever. sisters and cousins and whatever. So they were like, nine of them all together, running this business, and doing this thing that she did to Jude Devereaux, over and over and over again to to vulnerable people. Wow. And it was the same story over and over again. You know, it would start with giving up a piece of jewelry like one woman had a brain tumor

and she wanted to see you know was she going to be able to survive it like what yeah and so she gave up a piece of jewelry and then it was like yes of course we can we can take away the energy that's causing the the brain tumor you just have to give us you know more and more money i think that woman ended up giving like five hundred thousand dollars oh and like one woman like traveled from japan to meet with this you know and they all practice like all of the women practiced under the same name this joyce mitchell or whatever oh yeah and so and you know i would think especially if you're dealing with a lot of people with health problems that's such a vulnerable point in your life where yeah you would give away money and valuable possessions because it's your health absolutely one thing you can't buy absolutely yeah and people

are just yeah and then it got to the point where you know the results weren't coming in and so then people were asking for their things back and there was always an excuse for why they didn't what the fuck is that oh Is that a leaf blower, Norm? Oh, no. Carl's doing some leaf blowing. It's so windy. He'll just let the wind. I know.

And so when the results weren't coming in, people would ask, you know, okay, like, I'm going to need my stuff back. Someone had given over like $400,000 in gold coins. And there was always an excuse. One woman. We spent it all. Yeah, basically. All of the money was going directly into their personal bank accounts. And then they were buying stuff with it.

I'll give you a list here in a minute of shit they bought. But one woman was told that all of her money was sitting in a drawer for a cleansing ritual and had been burned in the September 11th attacks. What? Yeah. It was in the World Trade Center? Yeah. So, sorry. The cleansing ritual was in the World Trade Center. Yeah.

Sorry, that's our bad. You're not going to be able to get that money back. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Hmm. So, among the things they bought, a Rolls Royce, a Bentley. Like one of the things that they found, a drawer full of fancy rings, some with diamonds inside the home when they went and like raided the home of the Marx family.

I mean, I would hope so. I think all of them probably have diamonds. Just cars out the yin yang. Ford Pintos everywhere. Everywhere. as far as the eye could see but this investigation went on for so long so i mentioned it started in 2007 and they didn't bring down an indictment until 2011 because no one was sure if they'd actually committed a crime was what they were doing actually illegal oh i mean shit right well but i mean if you're saying that you're going to give something back yeah and that's kind of what it came down to is that the the way Marks family presented it was like, no, that was the whole deal.

Like, I didn't. So Jude Devereaux ended up losing more than $20 million to Rose Marks. Holy shit. And Rose Marks was like, no, no, no. I didn't take that money from her. That was an agreed upon rate that she paid me you know when we first met and she was like i need you to be my muse and all of this i just put out a number as a joke like oh okay but you'll have to pay me a million dollars a year and then she did it oh my god it's not my fault

i'm just great at business yeah and so finally it was decided. So they sat a grand jury and they did decide that what they had done was fraudulent. And 61 counts came down against nine members of the Marks family. And all but Rose Marks took a plea deal. They all pled guilty to one count of wire fraud. And then got, you know, very minimal sentences. I think just probation damn but rose marks was like no i'm not pleading guilty to that she thought she could charm her way out of anything she sure fucking did great so she got herself a defense lawyer she looked him in the eye and she said let's go to court and so they did they took this to court. And this is kind of where it's hard to find some details.

I did get some good information from a Reader's Digest article, which surprised me. It was actually a really good article written by Andrew Powell. Oh, Robert Andrew Powell. Sorry. It was really good. And it kind of walked you through the whole way that they got people to buy into their scheme and whatever. walked you through like the whole way that they got people to, you know, buy into their scheme and whatever. So at this trial, it actually started out terrible for the prosecution really, really bad before they even made it to trial. They got these admonishments from the judge.

Why? When they were going to secure the indictment, because he thought that they had done really shady practices during the grand jury when they presented the case to the grand jury so much so that he gave the defense some of the grand jury um testimony which usually is secret usually the defense does not get to see grand jury testimony yes he thought that the the prosecution used really shady tactics he thought that the prosecution took people who didn't believe that they were victims and tried to convince them that they were oh they included people um listed as witnesses that they had never spoken to oh yes um that had you know claimed to be that were customers of the marks family but had never made. And then they also the judge also said that they had used very derogatory and stereotypical language about gypsies to the grand jury. Oh,

yeah. Well, I mean, that does suck. Yeah. However, the prosecution kind of saw this coming. And so they had actually seated a second grand jury and gotten a new indictment it had to drop a ton of the charges that's where they dropped it down to the 61 charges originally they had come back with way more than that but they saw the problems coming from the first grand jury so they were like that didn't feel good let's do it again yeah let's do this again and so that's where they came back with the 61 indictments um which are going to read us all 61? I'm not because it's like multiple. It's it's not that many charges. It's like multiple. Right. It's mostly wire fraud and mail fraud, which I think is interesting. I'm I'm wondering, you know, what the

conspiracy to commit mail and wire fraud conspiracy to commit money laundering, mail fraud, and wire fraud conspiracy to commit money laundering mail fraud wire fraud so it's all conspiracy to commit wire fraud or wire fraud but like several counts of both of them and like i said all eight members of the family pled guilty to one count each and rose marks was the loan holdout and she was charged with 14 counts which are all federal crimes so before they can even get to trial, the judge is like, I don't like any of this. But this is not the trial judge that there before this is a different judge. And so he's like, I don't like any of this. You know, I don't think it's enough to just dismiss the case, though. Defense, if you'd like to address that at trial with the trial judge, you're more than welcome to do so. And I'd recommend that you do that. But I'm not going

to just straight off and dismiss it at this point. Yes. And so the trial moves forward and the prosecution lays out their case that they, you know, they lay out exactly how Rose Marks did what she did, how she got people in, how she got them to believe her and believe that they were going to get all of this stuff back. She got people to take out like advances against their credit cards. Like, oh, just terrible. This is stuff that should not be legal. Yes, exactly. And so they laid all that out. Jude Devereaux testified and she cried on the stand that she thought that this woman was somebody who, you know, had her best interest in mind and that now looking back, she can't believe that she fell for it and like what an idiot she looks like. And she said, you know, if this woman is found guilty in order to, you know, pay money back,

I won't take a dime of it. I don't want the money. That's not what this is about. That's not why I'm here today testifying. I want to keep Rosemarks from being able to do this to another soul. Wow. Yeah. And so then the defense got up. And they had a perfectly reasonable explanation for all of it. This was not a con. This was simply a cultural and religious practice that had been ingrained in Rose Marks since the age of eight years old. What else was she supposed to do? This is how she was raised. And this was a

totally reasonable business practice. Wow. Had she maybe overcharged for her services? That's not a crime. It's not a crime. And people paid it. And simply because you're unhappy with the results doesn't mean you get to now say that a crime has occurred. Oh, I hate this because... It's a pretty good argument. Yes. It is.

Yes. It really is. What do you think you'd do if you were on that jury? I mean, I think that I... I know there are jurors and people in general who are like well what's the letter of the law i'm gonna find and i tend to be more like what's what's justice here and to me yeah she was ripping off this woman yeah she knew it yeah in all she had been charged with defrauding um her clients of somewhere between 25 and 40 million dollars good god yeah and most of it couldn't be accounted for what it had been spent or laundered uh-huhhuh. Yeah. Wow.

So the jury deliberated for five hours and they found her guilty on all 14 counts. Oh, okay. Rose Marks did not take the stand in her defense and ultimately she was sentenced to a little more than 10 years

in prison and then ordered to pay some small amount of restitution not i mean not anything crazy but that wasn't the last you would hear of rose marks she of course was going to appeal her sentence of course do you want to guess on what grounds um probably that she shouldn't have been brought to trial in the first place, right? There wasn't enough evidence against her? No, but that's a good guess.

Okay. Ineffective counsel. Really? Mm-hmm. Because she hadn't wanted to go to trial at all, Kristen. She had wanted to take a plea deal, just like all the rest of her family. No, she didn't. And her lawyer talked her out of it she wanted to take

a plea deal that would have sentenced her to five years in prison and her lawyer was like no you are not guilty here you are the victim bullshit yes and so in court for this appeal, she went to she testified and like started to try and tear her lawyer apart. He was like, I was so confused. I didn't understand what's going on. I was also drinking and doing Valium all the time. I had no idea. Whose fault is that? And so interestingly, the prosecution and like the district attorney's office and her defense lawyer all testified and were like no she was perfectly competent the whole time in fact the last plea deal like discussion she got up and stormed out of because she said she wasn't taking a deal well that was because she'd been convinced to by her attorney and so her defense lawyer like his final thing was like listen there's no chance

in hell that i argued to keep to make this go to trial yeah because she couldn't fucking pay me as it was yeah for what she she still owes me sixty thousand dollars in legal fees and part of her legal fees i received in the form of a Rolls Royce. So there's no way I was like, no, let's go to trial instead of taking a plea deal because I knew she couldn't pay me. Right. Right. So this was really tough to find what the judge ruled on this appeal. As far as I can tell, she's still in prison and her appeal was denied.

Wow. Yeah. was denied. Wow. Yeah. How awful. Yeah. As far as Jude Devereaux, she's back on her feet. She's still writing books. She's had like two books come out this year. Oh, my God. Yeah.

Okay, I'm going to have to pick up a Jude Devereaux book. I know, right? I mean, not from that period where she was churning them out. No, no, yeah. For the money. She has written a book kind of about her experiences too. So yeah, I think that'd be a really interesting one to read. Damn.

But she reads it like, it's like a fictionalized version. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. What do you think? A psychic or a con artist, Kristen? I would say con artist. I think con artist too. What a bunch of shit. I know know what's your opinion on psychics in

general oh i think to me like um i think it's legal and like a totally fine business practice and whatever because to me it's entertainment you're doing it for entertainment yeah but if you're getting to the point where you're taking over people's lives and all of that, yeah. I think that some people probably really feel like they're the real deal or whatever. And, you know, meh. What about Teresa Caputo? You think she's real? Oh, the woman with the hair? Yeah, she's not so much a psychic as a medium.

The Long Island medium? Those things really bother me really because they prey on people who are vulnerable yeah yeah it really it really makes me upset and you see people like getting really sucked into that and oh sylvia brown what are you talking about oh yeah they're psychic sylvia brown was the one that used to come on the montel jordan show all the time and she would tell people that she you know same thing people would be in the audience and they'd be like she'd be like um i'm getting a male i'm getting a male an older male somebody over here losing older male and he's like yeah everybody my dad and they're like yes it's definitely your dad

and she had like the crazy long fingernails oh gross it was montel williams right what did i say montel oh yeah definitely montel williams. Montel Jordan is not a talk show host. So did she get into trouble? No. Just, hmm. Yeah. Okay. There's some great YouTube clips of her, like, totally messing up, though.

Yeah, where people are like, no, that doesn't make any sense at all. No, because she's still alive. That doesn't make sense. So I read an article about Teresa Caputouto because I used to really love her show. And I was like, I wonder if this is legit. And so I started reading about it. And I read this article that was written by this woman who went to one of her live shows. And there was a moment where she was like, you know, I'm getting a young male energy.

Has somebody over here lost a blah, blah, blah? And then nobody was, it didn't make sense. And she's like, I'm really a young male energy. Has somebody over here lost a blah, blah, blah? And then like nobody was, it didn't make sense. And she's like, I'm really pulled to you. Like, and she's pointing to two women. Are you sure you haven't lost a blah, blah, blah? I'm like, that's who I feel like is coming through. Do you relate to this and this and this? And they were like, no, no, no.

And so this woman who wrote this article was like, well, I did a meet and greet after the show with her. And when I did the meet and greet, the show with her and when i did the meet and greet i was behind those two women and theresa told me when i got to her that they had confirmed everything she said out there but they just didn't they were embarrassed and didn't want to do that in front of everybody and she was like i totally felt like it was bullshit like it bothered me more that she did that than that it hadn't connected when she was, you know, out on stage. Yeah.

Yeah, that's gross. Yeah. Because absolutely, you would be more willing to think, okay, every now and then you get one wrong. Yeah. Then someone's just totally full of shit. Mm-hmm. Mm. Okay, Brandy, this one is for you.

Ooh, I can't wait. This is one of those classic fucked up brandy cases. Excellent. Is there blood everywhere? Yeah, I mean, it's, when I, I'm saying it lightheartedly, but I have cried twice. Oh, gosh. The first part of this episode comes entirely from the Murder in the Mansion episode of 2020. And most of the court stuff comes from the Washington Post.

Here we go. It's May 14th, 2015. Picture, like, the nicest Washington, D.C. neighborhood you possibly can. Got it. So here's the thing that drives me crazy. 2020 said that it is the vice president's neighborhood. Okay, this crime happened in 2015.

So that would have been Joe Biden. He lives in Delaware. But right, he rides a train. But I didn't know if he had like a DC house. Oh, I don't know. I don't think he does, though. I don't think he does, though. I thought that was the whole thing.

But I'm thinking they mean Mike Pence. Oh, okay. Anyway, all of a sudden, a man noticed smoke billowing out of a house at 3201 yep 3201 okay what now woodland drive washington dc let's see i don't really know what you're going to see. Street view. Oh. Give me that street view. Looks like it's been torn down. That's just a chain link fence in an empty lot, Kristen. Okay.

Some nice houses in this neighborhood, though. Back in 2015. There was a beautiful house there? Beautiful brick home. Okay. Okay. This is D.C.? Yeah. Man, this is nice.

Yeah, it's incredible would live would bang could never afford wait wait okay if you do the image search you can see a picture of the house it looks like you can buy the lot for 4.5 million i think it's sold yeah so if you if you do an image search you can see what it looked like at one point very traditional murders happen here yes yes okay that's a good question would you buy a house if you knew someone was murdered in it not this one no not this particular house let's let's get to the end okay and and decide Okay. All right. Okay. Wait, can I give an answer now and then see if it changes at the end? Yeah, sure. Sure. I feel like I would.

Yeah, I feel like I'd buy a murder house. So the realtor is like, just so you know, someone was brutally murdered in this house. Yeah. You'd still buy it? Yeah, I'd research the shit out of the murder. And then if it was a family member or whatever, I'd be like, yeah, it's fucking fine. I'll buy that house.

If it was a family member? What if it was? Yeah, like they had caught the person that did it and it wasn't just like a random attack on that house. What if it was a random attack, but the person had been caught? Probably still buy it. Okay. It's going to be a deal.

It'd be a great deal. It's so funny because I feel like I'm the most bargain conscious of all three of us. And I would be like, no. $5,000. That's not enough. Market value. Shut up. What about you, Norm?

I went for 50% off. Would I buy a house where someone was brutally murdered in it? Yeah. How do you know someone wasn't brutally murdered in this house? Oh, we'd know. I've done a lot of research. So I expect that people die in houses of natural causes yeah but for someone to be murdered it's a little different i feel like i i believe in like

juju and stuff yeah you think you'd feel that gives some bad juju so my friends that's that's exactly how i feel yes i feel like you walk into a house just because we've done so much many house searches together i feel like you walk into a house and you get a vibe from the place you would know if somebody was murdered there no but like you get a good feeling you get a bad feeling so so some friends of mine just bought a hundred year old house and they have a creepy ass stone basement and they've done a really good job of like cleaning it up and whatever but i was down there they were showing me what they've you know they've got it really good job of cleaning it up and whatever, but I was down there. They were showing me what they've got set up for organization and whatever, and their dog stood at the top of the stairs

and whimpered and shook the whole time we were in the basement and would not come down the stairs. And I was like, guys, your basement's 100% haunted. Dog knows. The dog for sure knows. And they were like, thank you. Please don't come over here anymore. Yeah, they're like, we're not friends with you anymore.

Peanut right now, sleeping under the table because she's bored to death. Stop it. She's not bored to death. The dog knows. The dog knows that this is boring. She's so pleased to be with her second mom. Yeah. So there's smoke billowing

out of this beautiful home and this guy, it's like a Thursday afternoon. He sees it. He's like, oh, my God. So he goes, he knocks on the door. Nobody answers. That's your first. No, don't you just call 911?

That is a weird first reaction to knock on the door. He got you. So in this guy's defense, in this guy's defense, because I agree, that was my first reaction to of like, what a fucking dumb reaction if the house is on fire obviously people are coming out or they're not they're not going to be like oh i'm coming out now no my understanding is that the fire seemed to be coming from the second floor oh so i think his his thought was that maybe someone could be on the first floor had no idea what's going on. Listen, he did the right thing. He knocked on the door. Nobody came.

He heard the alarm, and he called the police. And he's like, hey, you guys have to come here quick. This is really, really bad. There's a ton of smoke coming out of this house. Police arrived on the scene. News crews showed up. And sure enough, there was this multimillion-dollar brick mansion with black smoke just billowing out of the windows firefighters arrived they began assessing the scene they got their ladders out

and they began climbing into the area of the house that they thought was the source of the fire again second story one of the firefighters was crawling around on the floor and he felt a chair but the chair was heavy as if someone was sitting in it so he felt his way up the chair for a head and he felt someone's head so he grabbed hold of the person and the person slipped out of his grasp and that's when he realized oh my god this is a dead body. And this is a crime scene. This is not just a fire. Oh, my gosh.

So he radioed to everyone else. Hey, heads up, everyone. This is a crime scene. In total, they discovered three adult dead bodies and one child's body in the house. There was blood on the floors. There were signs that all four people had been restrained, beaten, stabbed, and then doused with gasoline and set on fire. Oh my gosh. It was incredibly disturbing. Soon, authorities identified the bodies. Two of the adults were the homeowners, Amy and Savas Savopoulos. The child was their 10-year-old son, Philip.

And the third adult was Veralicia Figueroa. F-I-G-U-E-R-O-A. Figueroa. Figueroa. Right? Figueroa. Very good job. Nailed it.

Boom. So she was the family's housekeeper and she also went by Vera. So. Vera. The crime scene

was shocking. Investigators immediately began looking into what happened and why. But nothing really

made sense. Amy and Savas seemed to have a very good marriage. They were obviously super successful financially. They'd met at the University of Maryland, and Savas had taken over the family business, which was American Iron Works.

They had three children, but the two older girls were away at boarding school when this horrible thing happened. Ten-year-old Phillip was a normal kid. He loved go-kart racing and Harry Potter. And Verilicia was from El Salvador. She was married, had two children. She'd been working for the Sevopolis family for like five years, I think. And she always sent money back to her family in El Salvador. Wow. None of these people seemed to have obvious enemies, so police weren't sure who did this. But they began piecing together what happened.

Clearly, these four people had been restrained for a while. Mm-hmm. But it appeared that during that time, they'd had contact with the outside world. Yeah. So police discovered that the day before the fire was set, Savas had made a phone call. It was to the family's other housekeeper, Nelly Gutierrez. So he left her this message that sounds super upbeat,

and it's just like, hey, Amy's not feeling great. She's stuck in bed. But Vera's here. She's going to spend the night and just help Amy out. So, hey, don't come in tomorrow. We're all set. Just, you know, see you later. Hmm.

So Nellie didn't get the message until the next day. But when she did get it, she tried to return the call. Yeah. No one answered. So then she called Vera. No one answered this was weird yeah nelly'd been working for them for like 20 years meanwhile vera's husband lito was super worried he called and called and called her no answer finally the phone just went straight to voicemail. So he actually went to the house because this was like, she'd been there overnight at this point,

and I assume that was highly unusual. So he went to the house, rang the doorbell. No one answered. So he said he got this really weird feeling that even though no one was answering and even though it appeared that no one was home he felt like someone was in there then he got a phone call it was savas and savas was just like oh my god, my God, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. You must be so worried. But here's the thing. Amy was sick. So Vera offered to spend the night here.

We should have called and told you. We should have given you a heads up. I'm so sorry. Should have let you know. I'm sorry. Who did that call come from? Savas. Okay.

Yeah. So I'm, there's no audio of that phone call, but I'm assuming it was just like, hey, we're sick. Yeah. Don't come in. Thanks so much. And so Lito was like, oh, yeah, okay. Okay. As long as, as long as everybody's okay.

Was it legit him? Yeah. Or someone pretending to be him? Yeah, it was Savas. Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm. Was he forced to make that call,, it was Savas. Mmm. Mmm. Was he forced to make that call, Kristen?

Mmm. Police also discovered that the night before the fire, Amy, I don't know if she'd made the call or placed an order online, but it was to Domino's Pizza. Mmm. Mmm. America's favorite pizza. No, false. America's favorite cardboard. Blech. Yeah, I'm thinking that was the first time Domino's had ever driven into that neighborhood.

Holy shit. Oh, we don't deliver here, ma'am. We've never been to a neighborhood this nice, ma'am. So she ordered two pizzas and told them, do not ring the doorbell. Do not try to come in. I've got a sick child. Just leave the pizza on the front porch. What about the delivery

guy? He needs his tip. You can do that on... I don't know. What year was it? This was 2015. You could do it on our website. It gets a lot more tragic than that. I don't know if she called or did it online. The real tragedy is the dumbest guy was not dead.

Then they discovered that Savas had been in touch with his assistant, Jordan Wallace. Savas asked him to go to Bank of America, withdraw $40,000, bring it to the house, and put it in his car. Bad sign. This is real, real bad. I wasn't sure it was bad before. Uh-huh, but now. I'm pretty sure it's bad. What with the no tip for the Domino's driver in this, you're like.

What do you think the assistant thought of that? We'll get to that. We'll get to that. So Jordan says he'd never seen that kind of money all at once in his life. It was just kind of like shocking. He appears to be like a 20-something-year-old guy. But, you know, this was the CEO of the company. This guy was his boss.

So it was like, hey. Hey, you do what the boss says. Boss wants 40 grand left in his car. Okay. So Jordan got the money, took it to Savas' car, and then texted him, hey. What kind of car? Oh, gosh. Shit, they even said it in the episode you care so little about cars you would have no idea um like it was a 2007 batmobile they have they had a lot of cars to my knowledge amy had a range rover and a blue porsche

oh yes uh rosemarks also had a white Range Rover. The vehicle of psychopaths. How dare you? Confirmed. Jordan never saw anyone, never interacted with anyone, just dropped off the money and left. It was all very strange. It appeared that these four people had been held captive for at least 20 hours. They'd been tortured killed and that the killer or killers had left the scene with 40 grand and a blue porsche oh is that what they put the money in

you know probably yeah let's draw that conclusion let's go ahead and make that little jump but again who could have done this maybe if they found that blue porsche they'd have some answers pretty soon they did find the porsche it was in a church parking lot in maryland and it had been set on fire oh good much like the house yeah so of course the problem here is that like when things are set on fire, there goes the evidence. What? What? There's a fireproof evidence?

Um, actually. So, like, everything had been burned up. You guys probably haven't thought of this by now, but when something is set on fire, it burns and becomes a dammit. It's like the scientist in the disaster movies. Shut up! Do you guys know what H2O is? So, luckily, there was one piece of evidence that had not been burned by the fire. What was it? And it was exactly what investigators needed to solve the case.

Can you guess what it is? It was not burned in the fire? It was not burned in the fire. It was in the Porsche. And it contained enough. It was not in the Porsche. It was in the house. And it contained.

Somebody's wallet. No. Hmm. Hmm. the fire it was in the porsche and it contained enough it was not in the porsche it was in the home and it contained wallet no hmm i don't know a safe it was the crust from the domino's pizza what this is your second case that was solved by domino's Pizza? What are you talking about? Have I done another one? Yes. Which one? Affluenzatine. Oh, that's right. It was Domino's. Okay. Domino's. This podcast is brought to you by Domino's.

Domino's is the preferred pizza of killers. Questioning hardcore. Okay, so I'm guessing the crust was thrown outside. No. And they found it. No. Or, okay okay well then that shocks me that domino's crust does not burn in a house so here's the thing i think probably

they got there in time so that the entire house had not been engulfed in flames but yeah norm obviously calm down it's not a good look for domino's. No, it's not great. Domino's, flame retardant pizza. Put that fire out. Order Domino's. Don't call the fire department, you idiot. Fire department doesn't have any hosts. They just have a bunch of Domino's pizzas that they throw like Frisbees. We're never getting a Domino's sponsorship.

No. Way to go. I think these are all great slogans. Oh, yes, we did. We're doing work for them right now. So someone had eaten the pizza and left some of the crusts in the box. You know, I always thought people that don't eat the crust, they've got something wrong with them. Well. You gotta eat the crust.

I like the crust. It says a lot about a person if they don't eat the crust. Kristen. What does it say? There's just something going on in their life. They're a little off. Okay. Okay.

Okay. So investigators ran a DNA test on the crusts. It turned out they're 100 that bitch i think that's three episodes in a row sure enough there was dna i think lizzo is gonna start sponsoring this podcast can you imagine i would drop dead yeah Yeah, I mean, it'd be the end of everything. It would be.

You'd die happy. Got the sponsorship, but Brandy's dead now. Can't do the podcast anymore. So they ran it through the bad guy database and they got a hit. It was 34-year-old Darren Wendt. The dude had a big old nasty criminal record,

and there was his DNA on the Domino's pizza crust. But where was he? What? I don't know. You're seeming like a little red herring-y over there. Is it the Domino's delivery guy who licked their pizza crust? Yeah. What if it was the dude just making the pizza?

They tracked him down and would you believe it, he was working at a Domino's. That would be like a really harsh punishment for licking someone's pizza. On May 20th, just about a week

after the crime occurred, police found him. Apparently, after he murdered four people, he went to his fiance's place in New York. And he just laid the $40,000 out and rolled in it. Pretty much. He paid off her credit card.

They went shopping. Everywhere he went, he paid with $100 bills. Oh, so it really is him. That doesn't seem like a lot of money. $40,000? Yeah. I agree. Yeah.

To hold people hostage, like a CEO of a huge company, and ask for $40,000? Yeah. I agree. Yeah. To like hold people hostage, like a CEO of a huge company and ask for $40,000? No, I mean, this is a terrible, terrible story. I mean, the guy doesn't eat pizza crust, so there's obviously something wrong with him already. Will anyone like, um,

is that you? What's that? Someone in Tarpon Springs, Florida asked a question. Answer it. You're live on the podcast. Answer it. When are you going to grow up here and answer it on a call? Hi, you're live on the LGTC podcast. What's your question? What's your question?

And then what if they replied, Hi, Brandi. Long time listener. First time caller. I'd hang up if they said that. It's freaky. Hot idea. What? We get a burner phone.

Uh-huh. And we have a $10 thing, and they can call in and ask questions. That'd be great. You might get some trolls, though. Yeah, but it wouldn't be live. Yeah, but still, you might deal with some creeps brandy loves creeps got lots of experience with creeps norm you do okay i'm just spitballing here okay okay i i like it no bad ideas in brainstorming that's right including your bad ideas

so so yeah i i think we're all in agreement this is a ridiculous thing to do for any amount but yeah 40 grand is just yeah i mean the the killer or killers tortured a child yeah for forty thousand dollars. And some Domino's pizza. Yeah. Killer or killers? Do you think there's more? Are you saying there's more people involved? Yeah, wait a second. You said killers.

So there's more people involved. There's more to this story than meets the eye. Let's find out, shall we? Yeah. So police figured out that he was in New York at his fiance's place. But there was one problem. The media found out, too. Oh, shit.

So the news reports, hey, everybody, there's this dangerous guy in our area. Here's what he looks like. Here's his name. Stay safe, everyone. So he flees. And Darren and his fiance were lounging around watching the news and darren was like oh shit i gotta get out of here so he grabbed a taxi and went from brooklyn to washington dc wow back to washington dc a taxi drove that far uh for nine hundred

dollars yeah guess i would too yeah it seems pretty fucking dumb right like you drive back back to the scene of the crime you fucking idiot hey sorry just spit it's actually it's not a bad idea why i wouldn't i wouldn't expect it oh you know actually okay so i saw this reddit post yesterday okay and it was like um you've just killed somebody. You have to hide the body. Where do you hide it? Where's the perfect hiding spot? And someone responded. And this response has gone viral because it's really funny the way they phrased it.

But it was like, ever since I was a little kid, I've thought that if I had to hide a body, I'd keep it somewhere temporary and then call in a tip to the police that it was buried in you know a specific place and then the police would go there they'd dig up that place and they wouldn't find the body and they'd move on and then i'd go there and bury it in that place wow and it'd already been searched and there's already fresh soil so no one would be the wiser and people were like you've been thinking about this since you were a little kid. But I think that's actually genius. That's not bad at all.

It's not a bad idea. You know what's another tip that I'm hesitant to even bring it up because I'm like, what if a murderer is listening to this and gets this tip? I don't know. Might cut it. I don't know. They said that if they had a dead body they wanted to bury, they would dig a big hole, bury the body, put a couple feet of dirt on top of that, kill an animal, put the animal on top, and then bury it some more so people see.

You get to the animal and you're like, oh, it's just an animal here. Do you think I should cut that? I mean, what if some psycho creep? No, none of our listeners are murderers. Okay. Yet. So anyway, Darren was back at his dad's place in D.C. He was with his brother and his cousin. And the story is that Darren was going to get an attorney

and his brother and cousin were going to take him to the police so that he could surrender. What? But before that could happen. Yeah, I'm not buying it. Investigators tracked Darren down to like a Howard Johnson hotel. A hojo? A hojo. That's unfortunate.

So they saw, they knew that he and some friends were there. So he and his friends got into like two different cars. And so like 20 different undercover and I'm sure regular police cars started pulling in around them and driving down the road. And they did this thing where they surrounded both vehicles and then stopped suddenly. And then boom, everybody stops. And like, oh, they did. And then boom, everybody stops. And like, Oh, they did.

That's called a cop block. It sounded so fucking cool. So, you know, they do the cop block and they get Darren. Hold on. I'm pulling a Brandy. I'm pulling a Brandy.

I've totally lost my place. Got so excited about the cop block. In the car that Darren was in, they found clothing, two knives, money orders, and a bunch of cash. In the other car, where his brother and cousin were driving, police found a crumpled piece of paper

that read 300 Indiana Avenue Northwest. What's that address? The police headquarters. What? So maybe their story is legit. Maybe. Darren was charged the next day. It was huge news.

This part of the story is so obnoxious so you know this is this is big news everywhere because this story is just horrible and insane and every cable news show covered it but no one wanted to defend this guy obviously not that they needed to yeah but like i said darren had this huge rap sheet and one of his former attorneys named robin ficker who had like i don't know defended him in some bullshit somebody said traffic stops but i mean this guy seems like most of his stuff was violent so whatever so robin gets his 15 minutes of fame going on all these different talk shows being like darren didn't do this i know darren didn't do this because darren doesn't even like pizza what yeah first of all no one

doesn't like everyone likes pizza and he's non-violent he's the type of guy you'd want to have lunch with your grandma. Okay. Yeah. So anyway. What was Robin hoping to get out of this? Just attention? Of course attention. That's my assumption. I mean.

Huh. First of all, who sits around thinking about who they want their grandma to eat lunch with? Yeah. And then, yeah. Everyone loves pizza. Yeah. But why did Darren do this? Why to this family?

This is weird. Yeah, what's the motive? What's the motive? The only reason prosecutors could come up with was that, like, several years earlier, and I'm talking, like, maybe 10 or 12 years earlier darren had worked for american ironworks he'd worked there for like two years and he got let go that's it yes what so but even then like usually you think of the anger being directed at your direct supervisor or something this you know sophos, Safas was the CEO. Anyway, so Darren had this weird relationship with American Ironworks.

Like I said, he'd worked there for two years. Then five years after he'd been fired, he showed up at the company with a gun, a machete, and a can of beer. What? Wanting what? What does he think he is, in a movie? So he was arrested, obviously,

because that's, like, ridiculous behavior. Insane, yeah. Guess what his punishment was for that. Nothing. Probation. Almost nothing. He pled guilty to having an open container of alcohol, and he paid a $919 fine.

What? What about the gun and the machete? Right? So, I mean, just to recap, this dude works for this company for two years. Five years later, he shows up with the gun, the machete, and the beer. Five years after that, he breaks into the CEO's home and murders and murders for people holy shit for 40 grand what the fuck yeah and i don't even people are saying it's a money motive i i think if you're doing this you they're you're just a sick sick freak there's darren wentz trial began in the fall of 2018.

The prosecution had a pretty decent case. The guy had a documented violent history. His DNA was at the crime scene. He had an ax to grind with Savas. They said he acted alone. He wanted the 40 grand all to himself. They said that on the way on the day Darren went broken to the Savopolis home, Amy was out on a walk. She walked to Starbucks.

They believe it was during this walk that Darren went up to the home, overpowered Verilicia and overpowered Philip, tied them up, because Philip was homesick. And then Amy came back from Starbucks. He overpowered her, tied her up. And at some point, Savas came home, tied him up, too. Hmm. What do you think? It seems like a lot for one person. I totally agree.

Yeah. I totally agree. I. I totally agree. I feel like he likely had an accomplice. Yeah, I... Yeah. Definitely. You think? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, he would have had... Yeah, that's just a lot for one person. Anyway, then he had them make phone calls to people, had them order the pizza, had them arrange for the 40 grand, and ultimately... Murdered them. Yeah.

When it came time to find people who could testify about how violent and unpredictable and scary Darren could be, they looked no further than Darren's friends and family. Oh, good. He had a ton of domestic violence in his past. He'd been kicked out of relatives' homes. I think he had a restraining order on him by, like, his dad or somebody. I mean, it just, dude was bad.

Yeah. He was constantly threatening to kill people, including children as young as two. Wow. So, yeah. His stepmom said that she couldn't say where he was when this crime occurred normally he would have been home but he wasn't at one point a witness testified that darren smelled like smoke and gasoline in the days after the murders a tech nerd checks out yeah a tech nerd took the stand oh the tech nerd said that darren went was obsessed with facebook really constantly posting stuff updating his status calling people through

facebook which i guess i didn't realize you could do but guess what in that 24 hour period when this crime occurred he wasn't on Facebook. See, I feel like that to me tells me almost more than... Yeah, I agree. Yeah, because that's your habits. His ex-fiancee, who he'd gone to hang out with in New York, testified as well. In exchange for immunity, she told the jury what she knew.

Wait a minute. Ex-fiancee? Yeah, to break up. He broke up when he was charged with murdering four people. that was a little alarming to her that he'd murdered three adults and a child.

You hate to see it. People are so fickle these days. I know. What about love? Yeah. Hey, what if I got locked up for a quarter century?

I can't remember the next lyric. It's 21 questions. 50 cent. I'll ask 21 questions. And they're all about us. Oh. Would you love me on a bus? What is that?

I love you like a fat kid love cake. Yes. Do-do-do. Do-do-do. Do-do-do do Show me the lyrics If I got locked up and sentenced to a quarter century Could I count on you to be there for me? Support me mentally?

If I went back to a hoopty from a Benz Would you poof and disappear like some of my friends? If you got locked up, I would visit you thank you like how often i feel like i would visit you fairly often very good thank you what'd you get locked up for yeah depends on that you know this is gonna be unpopular this is gonna be really unpopular i feel like even if you got locked up for something really really bad yeah and it was pretty obvious that you did it i think i'd be like oh my god she really needs yeah help yeah yeah i think i think i'd be the same way norm norm be like i'm busy gaming

say hi to brandy I'm gaming Norm you wouldn't come visit me if I got locked up for a quarter century she needs someone to support her mentally I don't know who'd you kill I mean let's say it's really bad let's say she just like did a really terrible thing

I don't think i would yeah i'd struggle with that okay would you be ashamed to tell your friends you're feeling me i might be yeah in the bed if i used my tongue, would you like it? Wait a minute. Wait, is this still directed to Nora? Are you still talking to me? If I wrote you a love letter, would you write back?

Maybe I'd write you a letter. I don't know if I could talk to you in person. You'd be so, you couldn't write her a letter. You'd be like, dear Brandy, and then you'd stop. And you'd be like, I'm gonna have to come back to it. I'm gonna have to come back to it. Yeah.

I haven't written a letter in a long time, so I'd be like, oh, that's good, one line. I'll come back later to this. If it was time to put in work, would you be down to ride? What does that mean exactly? I think it's really bad, i think it means i think you gotta that's i'm asking you to go on a drive-by with me put in work go for a ride yeah i guess you're right because the next line is i get out and peel a blank cap chill and drive yep that's the drive by i'm pretty sure it is okay i would not go i wouldn't go on the drive-by i'm pretty sure it is for sure okay i would not go

i wouldn't go to drive-by with you either chris be like you know what why don't you stay here we'll make some cookies yeah you read cookies instead of driving okay so the ex-fiancee which norman is shocked that they're no longer engaged she said that that, yes, he came to New York. Yes, he spent a bunch of money with me. He said he just won the lottery. And yeah, it was... Oh, God. Peanut.

I don't think I've ever seen her jump like that. Brandi almost beat herself. Hey. Peanut, you scared me so bad. Did you see Brandy jump? They say. Peanut. Peanut.

Peanut, stop it. Lay down. Brandy almost pooped herself. So, yes, he spent all this money with me. He said he just won the lottery. It was all in $100 bills. And sure enough, the $40, it was all in a hundred dollar bills and sure enough the 40 grand was all in hundred dollar bills but darren's public defender judith pipe argued that

there was no way that one person could pull this off by themselves i agree judith pipe i yeah i'm really oh so she's not saying he's innocent. She's just saying he couldn't have done it alone. Well, wait for it, wait for it. There were so many questions that the prosecution couldn't answer. How did he break in? Did he have any accomplices? Why did he order the pizzas?

Well, I think because he was hungry. I mean, that's kind of the dumb... I'm like, why does anyone order the pizzas? Well, I think because he was hungry. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of the dumb one. I'm like, why does anyone order pizzas, Judith? Why is the sky blue? But why did he order Domino's? Okay, that's a fair question. Yeah. Like, you've got someone else's credit card.

Shoot for the stars, my friend. What's better? What? Like, what do you order? Literally anything is better than Domino's. Literally anything! Yeah, we're not getting that Domino's sponsorship. Domino's. Literally anything is better than us.

So Judith's whole thing was, there was reasonable doubt here. In the defense's opening argument, Judith said that Darren Wendt was not the sole participant in the crime. Not even close. In fact, he wasn't even the main participant. He was duped into this whole scheme by his brothers, Stefan and Darrell. And you know what? Savas' assistant, who brought them the money that day? He was in on it?

He was in on it he was in on no that's pretty bold claim judith pipe well but don't you think it's very odd that he would just bring 40 grand like that no questions asked put it in a car he'd never been asked to do anything like that before clearly he's in on it i don't know i think that's a bit of a leap hmm yeah i think so too but the prosecution was like look he acted alone but even if he didn't that's not a reason to let him walk free and yet technically we're not totally sure exactly how he broke in or why he ordered pizza but we don't have to have answers to every single question we just have to figure out did he do it which i think is funny because it reminds me of that um

lottery fixing case yeah where like the defense was like they can't tell you exactly how we did it and the prosecution was like who fucking cares yeah yeah we defense was like, they can't tell you exactly how we did it. And the prosecution was like, who fucking cares? Yeah. Yeah. We can't tell you exactly how this happened. We can just tell you that it for sure looks like he did it. Yeah. But the defense was adamant that the prosecution had the wrong guy. Darren had been lured to the scene by his brothers. He'd been set up by his brothers. They said that Stefan and Darrell were always in constant communication. They were texting each other. They were calling each other. But at the time of the crime, they didn't call or text each other at all.

Because they were together. Exactly. That is damning. I think that is damning. Yeah. Yeah. Put that in your judith piping smoke the defense also said that stefan's hair the moment you said her name i was trying you were

waiting the defense also said that stefan's hair was found in the room where the adult victims were discovered which okay okay what yeah so they dropped that bomb in 2020 and i'm like whoa was found in the room where the adult victims were discovered. Which, okay. Okay, what? Yeah, so they dropped that bomb in 2020. And I'm like, whoa, I need more. More, yeah. Washington Post did basically the same thing. Of just like, this is something the defense said.

And it's like, can we get more than that? What? Is it for sure? In 2020, they were like, look, you know, Stefan and Darren had the same mom. I think it's on 2020. I think you say in 2020. It makes it look like a year.

Sorry. This was a future. A futuristic case. But anyway, that's. So there's no, we don't know if that's. I mean, just the defense said that and that's all we got? The defense said it. That's all we got. I hate that.

I hate it too. Oh my gosh. As the trial progressed, the defense didn't mention their theory that the assistant was involved. It seems like once that guy testified and he seemed very credible, you know, he was just, it really seemed like he was just a guy who his boss told him to do something. He did it. Yeah. This has been horrible. I think that's very likely.

Yeah, I think so too. So they kind of didn't mention the assistant again, but they kept maintaining that the brothers were involved. Then Stefan and Darrell took the stand. During his testimony, Stefan presented proof that he'd been at work on the 13th and the 14th. Darrell took the stand and basically said, Darren, I can't believe you're doing this to me.

For what it's worth, investigators said that they looked into both of these brothers and found that they had credible alibis during the time of the crime. Okay. Then, the defense called Darren went to the stand. Oh, he took the stand? Yeah. Not always a great move. No, it's not.

No. He testified for five hours. How'd it go? Um, I mean, he was super calm the whole time. He said that his brother, Darrell, lured him to the house that day, saying hey, I'm doing some painting and drywall work for this family. Come on over and help out. You can make some extra money.

So Darren showed up, and that's when his brother was like, you know what we're really doing? We're robbing the place. So why don't you take something? And Darren was like, no, but I am quite hungry, so I guess I'll eat some of this pizza.

No, this is bullshit. This is dumb. And then he left. Okay. He had no idea that anyone was tied up in that house, Brandy, because he was just on the main floor and just, you know, sitting. Eating pizza. Yeah.

The next day, his brother gave him six grand, and that's what he used on his shopping spree with his fiance. Don't give me that face. That's what he used, Brandy. No, it's not. In other words, it was all Darrell's fault. No. Darren had been framed.

No. I think it's interesting that in his testimony, I think it's interesting that in his testimony he didn't blame it on both brothers. He blamed it on one brother whereas the defense the whole time was saying it was the two brothers.

I guess there's a whole lot of bullshit going on. Yeah, I agree. The defense also called a witness who said that he'd seen a man driving what looked to be Amy's stolen Porsche away from the burning house that day. The man in the car was small and had short hair. Darren is like a big, beefy, buff dude with super long dreads. Okay, so that's not him.

Yeah. Okay, so that's not him. In closing arguments, Assistant U.S. Attorney Laura Back said, told the jurors, it's time to hold Darren Wendt accountable, not anybody else. He turned 3201 Woodland Drive into a graveyard. That's a vivid imagery. And true. Yeah.

The jury found him guilty he was sentenced to four consecutive life sentences without the possibility of parole wow and that's the story of four horrible murders it was rough do you think that the brothers really were involved or you i don't know he could have done it himself i'm really i want to know more i want to know more. I'm really, I want to know more. I want to know more about that DNA. And I want to know, okay, they say they looked into the alibis. What were the alibis? I mean, are these just time stubs? Or do we have other people?

I'm really, really curious because that just seems like a lot for one person to pull off. really curious because that just seems like a lot for one person to pull off it just seemed like maybe he was the one who had dna on the scene yeah you think about if he had not ordered domino's pizza or he could have gotten away with it that's what i'm saying like the fucking affluenza teen that's how he was caught because he ordered domino's pizza hot tip if you're ever committing a crime don't order domino's pizza but i mean that is amazing they would have never caught him because it was it's such a weird connection to this crime who would be like oh i bet this guy you not even i wouldn't even say you fired 12 years ago like who was let go from your company 12 years ago would come back and do this.

That's nuts. Yes. Is that not nuts? LGTC bingo. Just had to get one in there. Yeah. You guys ready for some questions? We are ready for some questions.

Where the hell are these coming from? They're coming from this mysterious app called Discord. Oh. I wonder how you get into that. Well, Kristen can tell you more. Wow. Well, folks, for just $5 a month, you can join the appellate court. That's when you get the bonus episodes and you get into the Discord.

$7 gets you even more. Woo. Spicy. Ew, don't. What? Did you just lick your phone? Do you know how many germs are on your phone? I swear you just licked your phone. I didn't lick my phone. You had it in your mouth. No, it was like this. That's disgusting.

Norm. Would you lick a toilet seat? Maybe. How good looking is this toilet seat? Would you drink out of a bidet? We were talking about this earlier. If you had a bidet and you had to puke, you puke in the toilet and you can wash your mouth out with the bidet.

God, I'm going to throw up. Stop that. Hex Positive, a.k.a. Anna Banana Fee Fife O'Fanna, wants to know, what podcast are you listening to at the moment? Ooh Besides the award winning Podcast, let's go to court Yeah, what awards have we won again?

You guys always say it, I'm curious myself Gold stars for my mom I just finished The Thing About Pam Which was very good So good And Dateline has turned all of their episodes well some of their episodes

not all of them into like you can listen to the audio of them through the podcast so it's just all Dateline all the time I thought about doing that

with Game and Story you should do that you should I've been trying to tell you that for years people would love that Norm you stupid bitch Norm you ignorant slut Kristen what are you listening to right now okay

i'm pulling up my phone okay i've got mine i i love true crime obsessed i discovered it through patreon because i noticed that a lot of people who uh donate to us through patreon also donate to true crime obsessed so i was like well who are these bitches? Turns out they're hilarious. I love them. It's two friends. They watch a documentary and then they make fun of it. Love it. It's great.

So love them. I also love How I Built This, which is an NPR podcast that probably doesn't need a plug, but it's about business owners telling their stories. I think it's really cool. Oh, that's cool. And inspiring. Old timey disclaimer.

Duh! Love it. Wants to know, if you were on trial and you needed a lawyer, what fictional lawyer would you want to hire? A fictional? Fictional. Depends on what I did or didn't do. Do not hire Lionel Hutz.

Ooh, okay. I got a couple ideas. Matt Damon from The Rainmaker. Because he took down the big insurance company. That's right. Or Erin Brockovich. Bad bitch. She wasn't an attorney, though.

She was on staff. I think she's an attorney now. Well, okay, fine. Kristen pulled an actually. Well, an, fine. Kristen pulled an actually. Yeah. Well, an actually, we're talking about fictional. She's a real person. Okay.

So I guess your answer totally sucks. And then maybe Richard Gere's character from Chicago. Is it Atticus Finch? Is that his name? Yeah. From To Kill a Mockingbird? Yeah. Classic.

Classic choice. Tom Cruise from A Few Good Men. He killed it. Tom Cruise from the volleyball scene in Top Gun. He could do both as long as he's a good lawyer. He got Colonel Jessup to admit

to ordering the code red. You can't handle the truth. Do you order the code red? Do you order the code red? Do you order the code red? Do you order the code red? Do you order the code red? Do you order the code red? I do. That's like one of my favorite movies. I love that movie.

I think I won. Kristen, you've never seen it. He's made me watch it. You've never seen A Few Good Men. Yes, you made me watch it. False. False. Prove it. Tell us about it.

A Few Good Men? Yeah. Yeah. Carl Bernstein. Bob Woodward.ward were the journalists what you're naming journalists now kristin i was so confused you're thinking about the meryl streep tom hanks movie you think about the post no no no i'm not hang on what are you talking about hold on i'm about to show you two what's up are you a few good men is a made-up story yeah did you love tom hanks in it hold on

hold on tom hanks was great a few good men shit yeah who else was totally me yeah totally i was totally wrong i don't know who else was good? Yeah, I totally, I was totally wrong. I don't know what I was thinking. This will be cut. We should watch A Few Good Men sometime. It's very good. I've already seen it. You haven't? I love Tom Cruise and Demi Moore.

Okay, Jen Bet. Piggybacking off the hot dog question, is a hot dog a sandwich? Yeah. Which we all agree, a hot dog is not a sandwich. Absolutely not. Is cereal a soup? Fuck no, Jen. No. Get out of here. Who are these people coming in with these? Don't besmirch the good name

of soup and cereal. They're very different things. And they're both delicious. Depends on the soup. Are there soups you don't like? I'm not a big gazpacho person. Yeah, that's not for me either. No.

I really like soups, though. I had grilled cheese and tomato soup for dinner last night. Ugh. Delish. Delish. So good. Delish. Oh, delish.

I love fall. Soup time. Soup time. Soup time. Copper Boom wants to know copper boom that's a Gilmore Girls reference oh

what shows have you been watching lately hi what shows have I been watching lately okay so this is besides Family Feud yeah

thank you America Says that's my other one that I watch all the time it's so good um it's a game show anyway um i david and i actually just started this is an old one and i had never watched it and i'm laughing my ass off watching it bob's burgers oh yeah that's good it's so fucking funny bob's burgers is pretty good yeah oh love it, love it. I love Tina. Yes.

So good. Puts her bra on one boob at a time, just like the rest of us. Kristen, what have you been watching besides Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders? Hey, you know what? They've all got a dream, and only 36 of those women can make that field. So, kiss my ass. No, you and I just watched the first episode of the watchmen watchman oh my god excellent probably one of the best first episodes of a show i've ever watched yes very good oh oh oh i almost forgot there's no hulu show i'm watching it's

based on my favorite book ever what looking for al. They made it into a Hulu series. It just came out on Friday. I watched... Well, I know where Alaska is. What are they looking for? I'm sorry. She didn't have left. That was the dumbest joke.

Kristen. You're already married to him. You don't have to flirt anymore. Can't help it. Look at him. He's so cute. Oh, Normie, that was such a good one.

Hey. Hey. Knock, him. He's so cute. Oh, Normie, that was such a good one. Hey, hey. Knock, knock. Who's there? I eat map. I eat map. My niece got me with that one the other day. I laughed so hard. Hey, Brandy, did you know that deers don't have uncles?

What? They only have antlers. That's stupid. That's so stupid. You can't come in with that after I did the great eat my poo joke. Do whatever I want. Anyway, Looking for Alaska. I'm only three episodes in, but it's based on my favorite book.

Also called Looking for Alaska by John Green. And it's excellent. What's the premise? It's like teenagers at a boarding school. And it's kind of a coming of age tale. It's like the new kid is obsessed with the cool girl. He's kind of, is he nerdy? Is he cool?

Who knows? Where is Alaska exactly? Can we find it on a map? Or do we have to go there? Yeah. Who is Seward? What was his folly? Historical jokes for you, Norm.

I like it. I've been watching Big Mouth. Oh, yeah. I do like Big Mouth. I like Big Mouth, too. Yeah. There's some weird episodes, though. Yeah. Some kind of... They don Big Mouth. I like Big Mouth too. Yeah. There's some weird episodes though.

Yeah. Kind of. They don't all land. No they certainly don't. It's real hit and miss. When Jay has like

the relationship with his pillow. Yeah. So bizarre. Did you see the one where he gets his pillow pregnant? No.

Like every time that plot line would come on I'd be like please stop. This is just terrible. Yeah so Jay has sex with his pillow. Oh yeah. And the pillow is like Like every time that plot line would come on, I'd be like, please stop. This is just terrible. Yeah. So Jay has sex with his pillow. Oh, yeah.

And the pillow is like a character and he gets pregnant. And it's weird. Norm, are you saying pillow? Pillow. How do you say it? Pillow. Say it. Because it's a fucking I, not an E.

Pillow. Oh, yeah. You do say it kind of funny. Pillow. Pillow. Pillow. Not pillow. Pillow.

Tomato, tomato. Okay, you know what the hell I'm talking about. Next question. If you could pick any song to use as your theme song, what would it be? This is from Gadriel. What? The Doug theme song. Brandy, you're a fine girl.

Oh, wow. I've got a built-in theme song. It's our podcast. I thought we were doing our individual theme song. No. No, we're a fine girl. Oh, wow. I've got a built-in theme song. It's our podcast. I thought we were doing our individual theme song. No. No, we are doing our individual. Oh, okay. Yeah, fuck off, Kristen.

The new theme song to this podcast is Brandy, You're a Fine Girl. And Kristen's in the background. And there's Kristen. Kristen's here, too. I don't know what mine would be. What about Michelle, my belle? I hate this song. I hate this song too. What about like Earth Angel? Maybe Miss Independent

by Neo. Or like the what's the one? I-N-D-E-P E-N-D-E-N-T Do you know what that means? I-N-D-E-P E-N-D-E-N-T Do you know what that means? She got her own house. She got her own car.

Two jobs. Work hard. She's a bad broad. It's settled. Norm, what about you? My theme song? I don't know. Yeah, I have to think about that.

I have no idea. Not all of us have a birthright name, I guess. Or a birthright song. I'm literally named after that song. Tell me something I don't know. We're selling our listeners, Kristen. Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot they exist.

We went so long without them on this podcast. My song would be Fleetwood Mac, I Know I'm Not Wrong. Listener homework. Listen to that song. It's a great song. That I'm Not Wrong. Listen to her homework. Listen to that song. It's a great song. That is a good song. Destiny Philpott, what's the worst hairstyle you've ever had? Oh, God.

Oh, I can't wait to hear this. I already know mine. I had a bowl cut as a kid. But you know what? You had the right hair for it, though. Your hair is naturally straight. Back it down there. Kristen, we're married.

You don't have to swear with me. You know, if anybody could pull off a bull cunt, it's definitely you, Normie. It's my Normie. That's my sweet Normie. Every day I tell him how handsome he is. She does. It's very sweet. Gosh.

I've got a lot of contenders. I mean, so I had long hair when I was a kid, but I never brushed it. So it was just like stringy and gross looking. And then I had just like straight across bangs. It was not a good look. And I had the exact same hairstyle at the exact same time. And it looked terrible. It was terrible.

I gotta say say looking at pictures it did not look good yeah yeah christian and i both definitely went through those awkward together together that's yeah we had our glow up together we literally had the same haircut i mean it was terrible not good yeah um i also had a pixie cut that just was not my style a couple years ago. I would not recommend that for your hair. Yeah, no. It was not good. I also had, like, a chin-length bob thing.

Like, sometimes there have been different – it depends on who cuts it, whether it looks good. Last time I cut Kristen's hair, she attempted to try and talk me into giving her a chin-length bob. And I said, Absolutely not. I don't think that's the best option for you, Kristen. So I talked her out of it then. And then later we were talking about it again. And she's like, what if I really wanted it?

I was like, I think you will look like a mushroom. And she's like, I think you're probably right. I love the bob on Kristenristin i think it's very cute but it has to be it needs to be a little bit longer than that maybe like shoulders yeah like right yeah it could be like here yeah i think it's cute i think kristin with a pixie cut is very cute well because kristin's cute it's just that it would be hard to manage yes you have tell me more about how cute I am. It's not your face.

You have a great face for any of those styles. It's how much hair you have that presents the problem. It's not your face. Thank you for all the compliments. I feel really good now. You're welcome. All right, everybody, it is now time for Supreme Court Inductions. Please, at this time, if you could stand and remove your hat.

If you're not wearing a hat, please put one on and then remove it. Out of respect, dammit. That's correct. And remember, we are going to continue with the reading of the names and then their favorite movie snack. If you are wondering how to get inducted onto the Supreme Court, you just join our Patreon at patreon.com slash LGTC podcast. At the Supreme Court level, you get inducted into the podcast.

You get, you know. It's a forward slash. You get a card. You get a sticker. You get the discord. You get bonus episodes, case updates, yada, yada, yada. It's very exciting. Yada, yada, yada.

Rachel Bramble. Cherry Coke, popcorn, butter, of course, and snow caps. Figgy. A flask of gin. All right. Woo! Jenna. Popcorn and Whoppers.

The candy, not the burger. Jenny. Milk duds and a glass of red wine. Oh, milk duds. I. Milk duds and a glass of red wine. Oh, milk duds. I love milk duds. Liz. A soft pretzel with nacho cheese. Rachel.

Popcorn. Anna Barbarisi. Blue raspberry sour patch. Oh, sorry. Blue raspberry sour punch straws with a red and blue mixed icy. Woo! Mike Collins. Dark chocolate covered almonds.

Gotta be dark. Snuck into the theater. That's DP style. Yeah. Jordan Blake. Mike and Ikes. Sarah. Milk Duds.

Ellie B. Almond M&Ms in the popcorn bag with extra butter. Oh, yeah. That sounds so good. Welcome to the Supreme Court. Oh my gosh, guys, thank you so much for your support. We appreciate it more than we could ever say. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, Reddit, Patreon, of course. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen to and then

head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave a rating leave us a review. When you've done all that and only when you've done all that be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned! And now for a note

about our process. I read a bunch of stuff then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from the Murder in the Mansion episode of 2020 and articles in the Washington Post. And I got my info from Reader's Digest, the New York Times, the South Florida Sun Sentinel,

ABC News, and Wikipedia. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.