Let's Go To Court! - 97: A Biology Professor & Winona Ryder’s Shoplifting Trial

Episode Date: November 27, 2019

It was a seemingly normal day at the University of Alabama in Huntsville. The biology department was holding their weekly meeting. Biology professor Amy Bishop was unusually quiet that day, but her coworkers didn’t seem to mind. She tended to dominate their meetings. Perhaps being denied tenure had made her less enthusiastic? Roughly 50 minutes into the meeting, Amy suddenly stood. She pulled out a gun and began firing.  Then, Kristin tells us about Winona Ryder’s shoplifting trial. In 2001, Winona Ryder was on top of the world. She’d been nominated for two Oscars. She’d guest starred in an episode of Friends. She was famous and wealthy. But in December of that year, she was caught shoplifting at Saks Fifth Avenue. People were stunned… but come on. A famous actress would surely get a plea deal, right? Not this time. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Show Trial” by Duncan Campbell for the Guardian “Winona Ryder Shoplifting Trial” archive on CourtTV.com “Lawyer: Ryder’s arrest a ‘misunderstanding,” CNN.com “Actress Winona Ryder arrested,” BBC News “Winona Ryder convicted of theft, likely to get probation” by Matt Bean, Court TV “Winona Ryder Goes on Trial,” Associated Press In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “A Loaded Gun” by Patrick Radden Keefe, The New Yorker “Amy Bishop” murderpedia.org ‘Lawsuits against Amy Bishop over 2010 UAH shooting rampage have been settled” by Brian Lawson, AL.com

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about Wynonna Ryder's shoplifting trial.

And I'll be talking about a biology professor. Well, that sounds boring as hell. It's not. First off. Yeah. We've got a new episode out and it's on Patreon. On what? Patreon, Brandi.

Haven't you heard? I have not. What is that thing? Well, I mean, I can't, you know, read't you heard? I have not. What is that thing? Well, I mean, I can't read a book. I don't know. But for $5, the point is, for $5 you can listen to a monthly bonus episode by yours truly and me.

I'm on there too. Also Brandi truly. What did we talk about? Oh, what did we talk about? You covered... Let's be honest. It was a dark one. It was a dark one. Did you guys know that Jim Carrey was sued in a wrongful death lawsuit? Yeah, that was a dark one.

Yeah. And then I did. Ooh, I did the McStay family, which is very interesting, very mysterious, and then has a terrible ending. So, if you're feeling too happy today yeah hop on over to our patreon and listen to our latest bonus episode plus if you sign up you'll get access to all of our previous bonus episodes there's five now all together it's really i mean it's quite the deal and you get to join the discord which is like a 90s chat room it's amazing um and then at the seven dollar level that's for the ballers uh you get it is for the ballers. It is for the ballers.

Only the ballers are allowed at the $7 level, Brandi. They get inducted into the Supreme Court. They get a sticker. They get videos. Ooh. Coming soon. And they get all the stuff in the previous levels. That's right. There you have it. That's our plug.

So many benefits. Dental and vision not included. That joke fell out smooth like butter. I loved it so much. All right. Let me get started. I'm going to tell you about a professor. I had never heard of this case.

I found this through a BuzzFeed article that was like, I don't know, like. Probably like the top 10 things that are just horrible. Yeah, it was like 10 true crime stories you've never heard of, but need to know everything about. Oh, okay. And this is one of them. And they were right. I had never heard of it. 97.6% of this information comes directly from one source.

An article for The New Yorker by Patrick Radden Keefe. It's so good. It's a very, very in-depth look at this case from the beginning to the end. He spent like, I don't know, had to be years getting to know the family involved in this case. Like it is an amazing article. I am going to paraphrase it. And this is all your original reporting. It is not at all.

I'm going to paraphrase it and I probably will not do it justice. So definitely check out the original article. Okay. It's February 12th, 2010. Amy Bishop is a 45-year-old biology professor at the University of Alabama in Huntsville. She has like kind of a, just to paint a picture here, she has like a long, thin face and a horribly unflattering page boy haircut. Do you know what a page boy haircut is? Isn't that kind of a bowl cut type thing?

It's essentially, yeah, so she has like, it's like a very short bob. So she's got a bob that comes like to the middle of her cheeks and she already has like a long face. And then just straight across, very short bangs. And it's just like very dark brown hair. Did she need a friend? I mean, did she? She really did. She really, really did. And she's just like very fair skinned, has kind of like, you know, little slits of eyes, just so you can picture her. Okay. Okay. It's like around three o'clock. She sits down in a faculty meeting at a conference table with the other people in the biology department at this university.

It's like 13 other professors, staff members, whatever are there. biologist named Gopi Padilla printed, like handed out like the agenda for the meeting. And Amy Bishop was seated right next to him at the conference table. I'm so intrigued because the setup is so boring. The meeting kind of goes along and Amy is typically a very involved participant in like department meetings. Lots of ideas. Lots of opinions. Not a favorite by a lot of people. I was going to say.

I've never liked that type. Yes. But on this particular day, she's silent throughout the entire meeting. There was an explanation for it. A year earlier, Amy Bishop had applied for tenure and had been denied. And so her job was coming to an end. So essentially there was no reason for her

to be in this meeting. At the end of the semester, she'd be done. And so it didn't really matter what her opinions were you know moving forward whatever she had and this is worth noting she had vigorously appealed the decision to deny her tenure to the point that she hired an attorney and all kinds of stuff okay but in the end it was not fruitful and she was denied tenure. Man, tenure and professorships. That's a sweet gig. I'd be fighting hard for that, too.

Absolutely. So everybody kind of notices that Amy isn't participating in the meeting, but everybody kind of draws the same conclusion. She felt like she really didn't need to be there. Yeah. And I mean, they weren't really objecting to the fact that she wasn't, you know. Constantly chatting and interrupting. Okay, sure. to the fact that she wasn't, you know. Constantly chatting and interrupting?

Okay, sure. For like 50 minutes, the meeting goes on. And then as it's wrapping up, out of nowhere, Amy Bishop stands up in the conference room and pulls a nine millimeter Ruger semi-automatic pistol out of her purse and shot the department chair in the head. Holy shit. It was like a deafening sound in this tiny conference room.

Then she turned and shot the department assistant, Stephanie Monticillo. Then she turned and shot the next person, another biologist in the department, Adriel Johnson. Oh, my gosh. By this point, people are screaming, ducking under the table, running from the room. But Amy Bishop was kind of standing, blocking the only exit to the room. She was like, so nobody was like making a move towards her. They were trying to duck under the table or something like that.

Deborah Moriarty was a close friend of Amy Bishop's. They worked in the same department together. She was here at this meeting and she had kind of, was one of the only people who had kind of taken to Amy. And so she actually dove under the table and then kind of crawled towards her

and pled for her to stop. She was like, think of my daughter, think of my grandchildren. At this point, Amy wasn't paying attention to Deborah Moriarty, who was under the table and had turned and had fired a shot at another colleague, Maria Ragland Davis, who was sitting at near the table or around the table. Moriarty grabs Amy by the legs at this point. And Amy looks down at her, shoots the gun directly at her head, and it jams. Oh, my God.

So Deborah Moriarty crawls out of the conference room to go get help. And Amy Bishop takes after her. She is trying to get the gun unjammed, and she's continuing to fire at Deborah Moriarty as she crawls away into the hallway. But the gun is still jammed. So Deborah kind of turns around and scrambles back into the conference room and shuts the door with Amy Bishop out in the hallway. They barricade the door so that Amy can't come in and then they kind of take stock of what has happened. Less than a minute has gone by. This is what's so crazy to me about these shootings is that it happens in no time. Less than a minute has gone by. Six people have been shot and three

people are dead. Oh, they said it looked like a bomb had gone off in this conference room. Following the shooting, Amy Bishop went downstairs to a ladies room in the building. She rinsed off the gun, took off her blazer, which was blood spattered, stuffed that into a trash can. And then she walked into a lab that was like next door and asked to use a student's cell phone. She called her husband, Jim, like she often did when she was done teaching and said, I'm done. Can you come pick me up? Oh, that's what she said. She said, I'm done. Can you come get me? Oh, my God. So she left this building on campus through like a loading dock in the back,

which was, I don't know, common practice for her, I guess. And there were sheriff's deputies there waiting to apprehend her upstairs. They had called the police, obviously, and they immediately took her into custody without incident. She didn't fight, nothing. Well, she was done. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. News of this spread very quickly. Almost immediately, news trucks were like on campus trying to catch sight of what had happened. Police were obviously on the scene. Emergency crews on the scene. And people were trying to figure out what the fuck had happened here. Yeah. Amy Bishop was a 45-year-old biology professor with four kids who had a Ph from Harvard. What? Yes. She had been like

an accomplished violinist when she was a kid. She had done postdoctoral work at Harvard. She had been pretty well respected in her career. She had no criminal record of any kind. No history of substance abuse. What the fuck led to this? Uh-huh. Were there signs? Had there been warnings? There had to have been.

Had people ignored them? Yes. Could being denied tenure really take a mild-mannered biology professor and turn her into a mass murderer? No. In the early stages of the investigation, while they were trying to answer these questions, investigators would receive a call that would change the way everyone viewed mild-mannered Amy Bishop. So the next day, the following morning after the shooting happened and Amy Bishop was taken into custody, the sheriff morning after the shooting happened and Amy Bishop was taken into custody, the sheriff's department in Huntsville got a phone call from a man named Paul Frazier. He said that he was the chief of police in Braintree, Massachusetts. So that's a suburb

of Boston. And he said, the woman you have in custody, I thought you'd want to know. She shot and killed her brother back in 1986. What? Yeah. Uh, go on. So let's go back to Amy's childhood, Amy's past, and look at that a little bit. The Bishop family had settled in Braintree, Massachusetts around 1968. Judy and Sam Bishop were the parents of Amy and her brother, Seth. Sam had taken a job at Northeastern University. And so they had moved to Braintree and kind of set up a life there for the kids. They lived at 46 Hollis Avenue in an old Victorian home. I haven't actually, I haven't actually looked it up. So I don't know. Oh, cute. Yeah. So the home was built by a dentist originally who had, then there's like a little cottage on the property where he ran his dental practice out of. So yeah, really pretty Victorian home in this like

middle-class suburb of Boston. Yeah. It's a beautiful home. Yeah, close to a bed, bath, and beyond. All the bags you could need. A lot of people don't go there for the bags. The Bishop family, specifically Judy, originally found the like Braintree community kind of clannish, like a little bit clicky, hard to infiltrate when they first arrived. OK, you always scare me when you use the word clannish. Like, are we talking? No, no, no.

White sheets have gone missing. But like difficult to get into. Sure. And so you got to be white. So she got very involved in civic life and she joined a group that was called the town meeting which was like the local governing body of the town and because of that she kind of became like the town spokesperson she was very well respected yes she was stopping and i didn't mean clan like that honestly it wasn't even my word it was the word I pulled directly from this article.

Oh, okay. Put the blame on someone else, will ya? Amy, as a child, had suffered from asthma, like horribly. She spent a lot of time in the emergency room as a child. This was actually believed to be her attraction to biology in the first place, that she was going to figure out a way to cure asthma or find better treatments for it. Because of that, she couldn't do sports and stuff like that, which was very big in Braintree. It was described in this article as like a jock town. And so she learned to play the violin so that she had something that was hers.

And then her brother, Seth, asked if he could do the same. Seth is younger, but they're pretty close in age, I believe. So he also learned to play the violin because his sister did. And at first there was like some sibling rivalry, but then they actually like enjoyed playing together and whatever. And they actually seemed to have a pretty good relationship. Amy and Seth were both seemingly well-adjusted kids and then teenagers, and the family life was very stable. There weren't any red flags or anything to speak of in the family. Okay. Other than Amy and Seth both kind of stuck out as brainiacs in what I mentioned was kind of like a sports-centered area. Man, that's a throwback word. I haven't heard that one in a while.

But they liked that. It was like their special thing. Okay. And it kind of made people see them a little bit as exotic. They weren't the same as everybody else. Okay. One night in 1985, something would happen at the Bishop home that would kind of set off the chain of events that would lead to Amy shooting her brother. The family had been gone at a wake for Sam, the father's father. So the grandfather died and the family had been at a wake wake and they came home to find the windows open and like the curtains blowing out through the windows and so they go in the house and they find out that it had been ransacked while they were gone this is actually super common thieves actually look at obituaries very commonly to find when people aren't going to be home and go rob

their homes oh that is fucked up oh. I specifically remember when a family member died. And I believe, gosh, I'm trying to remember who it was. It may have been my grandpa. I can't remember. But somebody in my family had died. And they actually someone from their church came and sat at the house to watch the house while everybody was at the funeral, because this is such a common thing. Wow. Yeah. But it turns out they were a robber. They robbed us. That's exactly what I'm saying. So they had ransacked the house. They stole jewelry, Judy's wedding ring, which I don't know why she wasn't wearing, but not important. And then like these silver cups that were like, had the births of Seth and Amy. Well, what are they

going to do with that? I mean, they're made of silver, so I guess they could sell them for the silver. All kinds of valuables. I'm critiquing these things. I know, I know. All kinds of other random valuables, kind of like that. And they had actually stuffed them into pillowcases that they had stripped off of the kids' beds. Like, they hadn't even come with their own canvas bags. Well, that is just so rude.

The family was super upset by this. Obviously, it really traumatized them. Someone had been in their space. They felt, you know. Yeah. When they were at a funeral. Yes, exactly. So much so that Judy actually wrote a letter to the local paper and they like published it. And it was just her pleading for the return of their keepsakes. No questions asked. Just give us our stuff back that's how she handled it sam handled it another way okay he drove to a sporting goods store and purchased a 12 gauge shotgun okay both judy and amy were like we don't want a gun in the house please don't bring a gun in the house and he's like nope i'm gonna keep us safe well what are the same people gonna come back again and are they

gonna wait for a time when you're home that's an interesting thought no because it wouldn't have changed the outcome of this situation exactly yeah having a gun wouldn't have changed it at all no they would have just stolen the gun but i think that the thought have you ever lived somewhere that's been broken into no okay so my house got broken into once and like the people didn't even get into my house they broke like they pulled my screen off my window broke the window like my laptop was sitting right in front of the window and it wasn't touched so like they never actually made it into my house obviously and like being in my house that night like trying to sleep it was the worst feeling in the world I couldn't sleep I was like somebody's gonna come back you know and so it's just like your place where you're safe no longer feels safe.

Right. And so it was something that he could do that would make him feel safe. Okay. Did he have any experience with guns? I don't know. Okay. So that happened in 1985. More than a year later. So like a year goes by and it's now December 6th, 1986. I'm six months old. I'm super adorable. Oh, how is this about you? Please? Norman is also six months old. No, he's not. Norman and I are not the same age. Norman is negative six months old. Wow. Norman's cooking away. Ew. I've always hated that. Always hated it. I forgot how old you were.

Okay. It's December 6th, 1986, and the Braintree police get a frantic 911 call from Judy Bishop. Her daughter had shot her son. She thought it was an intruder. It was all in the sink. Judy had seen the whole thing, and it was an intruder. It was all in the sink. Judy had seen the whole thing. And it was all an accident. Yeah.

So that morning, Judy had gotten up while it was still dark out and the rest of the family was sleeping. And she left the house and drove to nearby Quincy. I don't know where that is. But she had a horse there that she stabled in Quincy. I don't know where that is, but she had a horse there that she stabled in Quincy. And so in the morning she would get up and she'd go ride the horse and feed it and whatever else you do to a fucking horse. I don't know. Brush it.

Yeah. That's the extent of my knowledge. This was a super common part of her routine. She loved her time in the morning by herself with her horse. This particular day, she'd like cleaned out the stable and all of that. So by the time she returned home, it was like after 2 p.m and that's when she called the police the police station was less than two miles from the bishop home so they got there very quickly judy opened the door she's got blood all over her clothes they come in she directs him to the kitchen and seth lay on the floor dead blood was fucking everywhere about how old was he at this point um

i mean i know you were six months old which is really important um he late teens okay okay i think maybe like 18 amy's amy's 21 at this point so i think he's like 18 i think they're like two or three years apart gotcha gotcha the is small, and he's been shot in the kitchen with a shotgun. So there's just, like, stuff everywhere. Blood? Yeah. I think I already said that, so I wasn't going to say it again. I was wondering.

I was looking at you like, oh. I was pretty sure I'd said it once already, and I didn't think I should say it. And there was more than blood everywhere. Well, yeah. I gotcha. The paramedics worked to revive Seth, but it was... Well, I mean, he'd been shot with a shotgun. Yeah.

And then Judy talked to the police about what had happened. Amy was nowhere to be found. Fled the scene, did she? She did. So this is what Judy told the police happened. Seth had just gotten home from the grocery store. And Judy was in the kitchen helping Seth unload the groceries when Amy came downstairs and she was carrying Sam's shotgun. Okay. Amy said, I have a shell in the gun and I don't know how to unload

it. And Judy said, don't point it at anybody. But as Amy was like swinging around to show Seth and Judy that she had her hand off of the trigger and that she just wanted to know how to take the shell out of the gun. The gun suddenly fired. With no hands on the trigger? According to Judy, yes. Okay. Because the kitchen was small and Amy had been talking directly to Judy and Seth,

Seth had been shot point blank, like in the chest or torso. And as soon as he collapsed onto the floor, Amy took off running out of the house. So officers put out a bulletin looking for Amy and it doesn't take long to track her down. She's at an auto body shop in town. She had like gone up to them with a loaded shotgun and told them to give her a car that she needed to get out of town. Okay. Yeah. The police come and they arrest her and take her to the station for questioning, whatever. And she told them that it had been

an accident. She said the same thing her mother had. She said that she had been alone by herself in the house for several hours that morning while her mom had left first. And then she and her dad had gotten in like a little tiff and her dad had left. And so she had worked herself up into a tizzy while she was at the house by herself and had gotten scared and decided that she was going to load the shotgun in case somebody broke in. She'd just been worried about robbers, is what she told the police. When Sam had bought the gun, he'd kind of showed Seth how to load and unload it, you know, in case he was the one that was home and something happened. And so Seth had then showed Amy how to do it. So she had loaded several shells and it was like a pump action rifle. And so she had loaded several shells into it but then she was trying to figure out how to remove them and the gun went off she accidentally shot like fired a shot into

her vanity mirror in her bedroom okay and then she heard seth come home from the grocery store and so that's when she went downstairs and to ask him how to take the shells out of the gun and it had gone off. The police during this, you know, when she's giving her statement or whatever, they asked her if she had shot her brother on purpose, and she said no. And that was kind of the end of it. Well, really? Yeah.

That evening, Amy was released from the police station after some questioning. Judy had showed up and said, you know, I told you guys this was all an accident. And they released Amy pending a formal investigation. But Seth was declared dead at 3.08 p.m. And a medical examiner eventually declared his death an accident due to discharge of a firearm. And so nothing ever came of it. I can see how nothing would come of it. Yeah. When you have the mother saying that she was there and she witnessed the whole thing and it was an accident, you know, I can really see how that could happen. But there were some questions about why she wasn't charged with something when she went

to the auto body shop and demanded a car because that's pointing a loaded weapon at someone, you know. Yeah. But really, they thought, you know, she was just acting out of distress and nobody was harmed. And so they kind of swept it under the rug. A lot of people said it was because of Judy's status in the community that led to this being swept under the rug. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But the bishops tried to move on with their

lives. Amy went back to college at Northeastern where her dad worked. She graduated there. She went on to a Ph.D. program at Harvard and things went fairly normal for her. She met a guy there who would later become her husband. They got married in 1989 in the same church where Seth's funeral was held. Sam felt like his daughter wasn't fully moving on with her life. And so he told her that one way to overcome loss is to create life. And so Amy did. She had, in 1991, she gave birth to a daughter, Lily. And then pretty quickly after she had two more daughters, a daughter, Thea, and a daughter, Phaedra. Amy was described as a very

involved, loving mother, but pretty high strung. She bought, you know, the best organic foods and, you know, was maybe a little bit of a helicopter mom, encouraged them to play instruments, you know, was worried if they were being properly challenged by their schoolwork, all of that stuff. In the meantime, she's still trying to finish up her PhD, but she was not the best PhD candidate. She was having trouble standing out from the crowd at Harvard. But finally, after doing multiple revisions on her thesis, she was awarded her PhD and she kind of ended at the bottom of her class. But you know, a PhD is a PhD. And it's from Harvard. Exactly.

You know, I've always wondered about that. Everyone who goes to Harvard. Yeah. Is so used to being the best in every room they walk into. And then all of a sudden they go somewhere and they're not the best. Yeah. Just very average. Yeah. That must be so weird on top of the culture shock of already going to school. Yeah. And so later it would come out that she was a terrible Ph.D. candidate, but that they just wanted to get her out of the program. And so they just gave her. Yeah. Classic thing of people who talk too much in meetings. Yes.

Those are the worst people. Yes. So it's 1993 when she gets her doctorate. She does a bunch of postdoc work and whatever. For a while, they live in the cottage that's on the property at her parents' home, which worked out really well for them because Judy was the only one she trusted to watch her kids, even though Jim rarely worked, her husband. She still wanted Judy watching her kids while she was working. Yeah. That's odd.

But I don't think it's that odd for like a high-strung mom as she's been described, so. Okay, okay. In 2001, Amy and Jim welcomed another baby, a baby boy this time, and they named him Seth. Okay, I think this is so fucking weird. He was born on what would have been Seth's 33rd birthday. Oh, that is weird.

Isn't that fucking weird? I think you have to name him Seth. 33rd birthday. Oh, that is weird. Isn't that fucking weird? I think you have to name him Seth. Yeah. Yeah. But she never would tell anyone that he was named after her brother. People would ask, like, you know, do you have names picked out and stuff like that? And she would always just say, yeah, he's going to be named Seth. And then totally sidestep the fact that they were naming him after the brother that she had killed.

Well, I don't really blame her for that. I don't either. I really don't either because that'd be a very difficult conversation to have. Or, you know, you could say I'm naming after my brother who passed away. Okay. Yeah. You could say that. Yes.

But I mean, that'd still be kind of fresh. Yeah. So it was very shocking to a lot of people who knew her at that time to find out later that she had had a brother named Seth that she had killed. Yeah. Yeah. How do you think Seth feels about it? What?

Seth, her son. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I thought you were making a terrible joke. No! I did. I was like, what the fuck? No.

I mean, how do you think her son, Seth, felt about it? Yeah, no, I'm with you now. I'm fully caught up. By all accounts, it seemed that Amy was adjusting well to motherhood and had moved well beyond the tragic events of her past. But there were glimpses under the surface that there was something unsettled in Amy. But there were glimpses under the surface that there was something unsettled in Amy. One Saturday morning in 2002, Amy and Jim went out for breakfast at IHOP.

They asked for a booster seat for Seth. And the waitress told them that the last one had been given to someone else. Amy fucking lost her mind. She like screamed that they were there first. Oh, God. And that it should have been saved for them. And then. Okay. She went up to the table of the woman that they had given the last booster

seat to. No. And she started like cussing her out and she's like, I am Dr. Amy Bishop. Okay. And all of this stuff. Right.

So a manager comes over. God. And asks Amy to leave. And she's like, all right, all right, I'll leave. But before she leaves, she walks back over to the table of the woman who took the last booster seat. How dare she? And she punched her in the fucking face. Oh, my God.

Yeah. So she was arrested. Good. And initially she was charged with assault, but the charges were dropped. Why? No idea. Oh, because it was an accident. Yeah.

She thought the lady was robbing her of a booster seat. Can you imagine? No! Getting punched? No! For that? No! I can't even imagine someone coming up and like screaming at me and being like,

I'm fucking Dr. Amy Bishop and you took the last booster seat! Isn't that funny? You'd be like, am I supposed to know this person? So there was definitely stuff brewing under the surface with Dr. Amy Bishop. I think we've all punched somebody in an IHOP. I think we have. with Dr. Amy Bishop. I think we've all punched somebody in the eye hop. I think we have.

So that never goes down on any kind of record because the charges are dropped. Eventually, Amy takes the tenure track job as a biology professor at the University of Alabama and relocates the family there. As the sole provider for her family, as I mentioned, Jim did not work. There were a couple of mentions in this article about how Amy always said he was too smart to work.

That does. Okay. Sounds like she was the idiot then and he convinced her of that. So this had the potential for. Hey, Brandy. Yes. I decided not to bring a case today because I'm too smart to work. So this tenure track job, like, offers great financial stability for the family.

Yeah, and, like, once you get tenured, you can poop on a desk. What? What? What? Why is that the example we both thought of? That is so weird well you can i mean if we both think it must be true hey if we have any tenured professors listening please shit on your desk let us know we predict nothing will happen so it's 2003 the family relocates to Alabama.

Jim is really smart, remember? Oh, super smart. Super smart. He's smart for his own good, really. Can't even watch the kids. That's right. So Amy and Jim start collaborating on this automated cell incubator, which I don't know what that fucking means. But the president of the university is super impressed by this.

It's part of the reason she got the job, because she has this idea for this thing and jim's gonna help her and blah blah blah and he makes this big statement in a local paper that this device would change the way biological and medical research is conducted however it's not a thing yet they don't have the skills for it and what yeah i mean probably yeah but amy is so focused on this and getting patents and all kinds of stuff she's not really doing any of her fucking job oh well yeah so as part of this tenure track is you're supposed to put out you know research papers and all this stuff and have all kinds of stuff you're supposed to earn tenure absolutely and she's not doing any of that and she keeps like getting warnings like you know you really if you really if you're going to get tenure, you know, you really got to do these

things and be published and all of this stuff. And she's also not doing great in the classroom. People keep she either kicks people out of her class or people drop her class very regularly. Answer me this. Yes. Was she one of these? You know, when I was at Harvard. Probably. I mean. Probably, right? Yes. Yes. A lot of people said that Amy had always had these tendencies where she could, you know, kind of float off the right direction. But that she being close to her parents had anchored her and kind of kept her on the straight and narrow. And when she moved to Alabama, she no longer had that anchor.

And so she just kind of was adrift doing whatever the fuck she wanted. Yikes. Yeah. So then she applies for tenure, gets denied, appeals it, and finds out like every single person

who voted against her getting tenure oh yeah was that part of the lawsuit discovery she got to find probably i would assume yeah anyway as i mentioned earlier she she doesn't get anywhere with it like they're like no you don't fucking get tenure sorry but she finds out that someone called her crazy in one of the yeah yeah so one day after well kind of after all of this has gone on kind of towards the end of it when they're like sorry no you're not getting tenure she goes to the university and like parks in front of an administration building and she sits in her car and she calls the office of the president of the university and says she's going to come upstairs and discuss her case okay and she was told that the president would not meet with her

and that, you know what, don't even come in the building. And according to Amy, she then saw the president of the university being escorted out with police officers, you know, taking him to his car to make sure he was okay. Oh, so she was super threatening then. They believe she was, obviously. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So after this make sure he was okay. Oh, so she was super threatening then. They believe she was, obviously. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So after this happened, she was pissed.

She called her one friend in the department, Deborah Moriarty, and she was like, they act like I'm going to walk in and shoot somebody. Obviously, that's exactly what she ended up doing. Oh, spoiler. I already told you at the beginning of the episode, Kristen. What does Seth think of this? We're to a week before the killings now. Okay.

Amy's husband, Jim, takes her to a firing range in town and shows her how to use a 9mm Ruger that he had got when they lived in Massachusetts. A friend had bought him the weapon and then given it to him illegally. It's so that he could circumvent the waiting period for some reason. Oh, good. Mm-hmm. You know, I'm shocked that someone who accidentally shot her brother would want to touch a gun again. Right. So it's a week before the shootings, and he teaches her how to touch a gun again. Right.

So it's a week before the shootings and he teaches her how to use this handgun. I will note here that in this article, the author wrote, it remains unclear whether Jim had concerns about entrusting Amy with a firearm. He refused repeated requests for an interview. So Jim's like the one person in this that no one's really ever talked to. He doesn't do interviews. Yeah. So the shooting happens.

Three people are killed. Six people total are, three additional are injured. It's a horrible scene that no one saw coming, but there were clearly signs. Yeah. There's always signs. There always are. Absolutely.

Of everything. Yes. So Jim calls Judy Bishop, Amy's mom, and tells her that Amy's in custody and what Amy had done. And Judy's first reaction is, Jim, did you have a gun in the house? I think that's a very telling reaction. Yeah. Yeah, it is. So she's been arrested.

They're looking into this case. You know, obviously she's going to be charged with murder and attempted murder and all this stuff. And the information about the shooting of her brother comes to light. And authorities in Massachusetts decide they're going to look back into this case and see if this was really an accident. And so they pull out the original police reports and they start looking through it and you know everything seems pretty normal but initially they had written down that they were going to charge her with charges for going to that auto body shop and brandishing a gun and demanding a car and then somehow it had just gotten washed away.

Nothing had ever happened. So there's all of this media comes calling about this now and wanting to know what happens. And so Paul Frazier, the chief of police in Braintree, decides to hold a press conference and says, yes, we're reopening the case. We're looking into it. And they said, yeah, it looks like at the time of this incident that they had been on the cusp of charging her.

And then they'd gotten the word to release her and not move forward with it. And so the police are like, well, who? Yeah. Who made this card? And he says, John Polio. Who's that? John Polio was the current chief of police when that happened. He was the chief of police at the time.

And according to multiple reports that when Judy showed up to the police department that day to figure out where Amy was and who was interrogating her and all this, she asked for Chief Polio by his first name. And as soon as she did, Amy was free to go. Wow. It was really interesting because at this time, I think this former chief at the very beginning of this was still alive, but he died somewhere along, you know, while the investigation's going on. Sure. He had been like a real stickler about corruption and nobody gets special treatment and all of this. Uh-huh. And so like this was a real smear to his name if he had really gotten this thing. Sure.

Just totally swept under the rug. So they decide they're going to look into this case on Seth. But cold cases under the best circumstances are impossible to. Yeah. Especially one like this where no real investigation had been done. Yeah. Yeah. What notes are they going to go over?

There's a handful of notes. There's like two crime scene photos. And then out of politeness, the neighbors had all come and cleaned the kitchen while they were off at the hospital with Sam and off getting Amy from the police department. Oh, God. So there's no evidence of any kind that's saved from the scene. Uh-huh. Nothing.

So there's no evidence of any kind that's saved from the scene. Uh-huh. Nothing. Another problem is that by 2010, the statute of limitations on anything that she had done at that auto body shop were up. The only thing she could be charged with is murder. Oh, God. And how could they prove that she had intentionally killed her brother with very little evidence? The mom has to turn on her. That's the only way.

That would probably be the only way. But investigators are looking over what they do have and they stumble over what they believe is a clue. In one of the pictures that was taken, it's Amy's room. There's a copy of the National Enquirer on the floor. And so they kind of like enhance, enhance, enhance, enhance the picture. And they're able to figure out what issue it is. And they order that same issue from the Library of Congress and they bring it in. And there is a large article in it about Patrick Duffy. He was at the time this big actor on Dallas, which was a huge show. And on November 18th, 1986, Patrick Duffy's parents were killed in a bar that they owned in Montana. Two assailants had broken into the bar and they had used a 12-gauge shotgun. As they were, like, fleeing the scene, they brandished the weapon

and tried to steal a getaway car. What? So they were like like this shows intent that she read this article that day and then did the same thing that's a bit of a stretch they thought it was enough to show intent they would still have to prove yeah that she did it but it was enough to open an inquest so an inquest is like the step right before it goes to like a grand jury. So it's like a little tiny mock trial. So it happens in a courtroom.

They called like 20 witnesses who would give statements. But think about the witnesses. Like this is something that happened over 20 years ago. It's, yeah, it's 25 years at this point at least. And so memories are hazy. They probably don't want to be involved at all. Yeah. But in April of 2010, they do this inquest.

20 witnesses appear in the courtroom and give statements of all different kinds. Some of the initial investigators involved in the case testified at this inquest that they had initially planned to charge her with murder and assault with a dangerous weapon. But then they were instructed to make those disappear. The entire investigation, multiple people testified to, came to an abrupt halt when all of a sudden Judy Bishop was allowed to come into the interrogation room with Amy and take her out. I think that's the strongest thing.

Yeah. room with Amy and take her out. I think that's the strongest thing. Yeah. That these seasoned investigators thought there was something there, wanted to move forward, and then all of a sudden stopped. Yeah. One of the sergeants who was involved in the initial investigation talked about what he overheard after Amy and Judy were reunited for the first time in that interrogation room. He testified that Mrs. Bishop, Judy, embraced Amy and said that she had lost her son today and she wasn't going to be losing her daughter. Yeah, that does not surprise me at all. Uh-huh. Sam, Amy's dad, testified during this inquest and said that, yes, there had been like a little spat that day because that was like one of the big things that they tried to argue was that this big family fight blew

up and that maybe Amy had thought it was her dad who had come home and that she'd intended to kill him. Okay. And she had accidentally killed her brother instead. Okay. So Sam testifies during this inquest that they had had a stupid argument over somebody leaving their stuff out in the hallway because he tripped going down the stairs because somebody's stuff was laying out. And that yes, he'd left the house in a huff, but it was no big thing. And that all that it was, was that Amy was traumatized when

the house was robbed and that she'd been left in the home that day by herself for several hours. And she worked herself up until she was so afraid that someone was going to break in that she loaded the gun. And it was just a horrible chain of events that led to this accident. I think the last to testify at this inquest was Judy, and she told her same story again, how it was all an accident, how she'd seen the whole thing. She said she didn't even have her hand on the trigger. She had one hand on the barrel and one hand on the stock. They did some testing with this particular rifle. It was like a Mossberg pump action,

12 gauge shotgun. And if it received like enough force on the muzzle, there was a chance of it firing. So Judy's big argument was that clearly she hit it on the counter or on the cabinet as she spun around to show them that it was loaded and that she couldn't get it unloaded. And that's when it had gone off. Judy said on the stand that she remembered Seth saying as he dropped to the floor, oh, no, mom. And she said that just blood was everywhere. She said her shoes were full of blood. Her hair was full of blood. And then she said the last thing she said while she was on the stand.

I would just like to add that it was the worst day of our lives. Yeah. Yeah. Judy did deny having any kind of special relationship with the chief, John Polio. She said she didn't know him at all and she'd never asked for him at the station. Oh, come on. I know. I think that's odd. Like, why wouldn't you say, yeah, I just I knew him. Yes. Because obviously, if she was that involved. Yeah. In the community. Mm hmm. You would have to know the chief of police. Yeah. Yeah. So that just seems like I know total obvious. Yes. So this inquest completes and they decide they have enough information, enough probable cause to present the information to a grand jury. And on June 16th, 2010, Amy Bishop was indicted for first degree murder for the murder of her brother.

Yeah. When that happened, Sam and Judy gave a statement. They said, we cannot explain or even understand what happened in Alabama. However, we know that what happened 23 years ago to our son, Seth, was an accident. Two days after the indictment came down in Massachusetts, Amy made an attempt at her life in jail in Alabama. She popped the razor out of a,

like the blade out of a safety razor and then slit her wrists. She was found by a guard who saved her life. Had four more minutes gone by, she would have bled to death. Oh, fuck. Yeah. I get real wimpy about this stuff. I know you do.

I know you do. So she's facing charges of murder now in Massachusetts and obviously facing charges in Alabama for the shooting. So the thing in Massachusetts is kind of on hold while the Alabama stuff moves forward. She's assigned a public defender named Roy Miller, who's like this guy that's been practicing law in Huntsville forever, like 40 years. Oh, my God. Yes.

And he starts to work on an insanity plea. First time he meets with Amy, Amy's like, no, I'm not going to, I don't want an insanity plea. I want the death penalty. Oh. I want them to give me the death penalty. Wow. She knew that the alternative

would likely be life in prison without the possibility of parole. And she already was having problems at the county jail. And she was like, should she be convicted, she would be transferred to this, it was called the Julia Tutwiler Prison for Women, which was like this notoriously horrible women's prison in Alabama.

Still is. Yeah. And she was like, I won't make it there. I'd rather have the death penalty. Wow. Yeah. And so her lawyer, I guess, gets in contact with her parents and they call and talk her out of requesting the death penalty. Yeah.

They're like, even if you get it and you're going to be executed, that drags on forever. Like, yeah, you're not. That's not happening tomorrow. No. And so they decide they're going to put together this insanity plea. Amy's trial was scheduled for September 24th, 2012. But two weeks before that date, Amy's attorney approached the prosecution and asked for a deal. They said Amy was willing to plead guilty to capital murder in exchange for a commitment that the prosecution would not seek the death penalty.

Okay. And they agreed to it. She would forfeit all rights to an appeal and she would get life in prison without the possibility of parole. Seems pretty good. Yeah. So they agreed to the deal. In Alabama, the way it works, even when you have a guilty plea, is that the prosecution presents like a very abridged version of the case for the court and then the sentence is imposed. of the case for the court and then the sentence is imposed. So she, you know, showed up in court in her red prison jumpsuit and flip flops and that

super cute page boy haircut. And she sat there in silence as they had her in a red orange. It was a red jumpsuit. Yeah. And she sat there in silence as they laid out the case against her. The only time that she really showed any emotion is when they showed the pictures of her colleagues and the conference room where the shooting had happened. And I will mention that when they were planning

to do the insanity plea, Amy said that she had no recollection of the actual shooting. Okay. She said that she had no memory of it at all. She also said that she had no memory of shooting her brother, Seth. She doesn't remember the accident that she had no memory of it at all. She also said that she had no memory of shooting her brother, Seth. She doesn't remember the accident that she so clearly recalled initially?

Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. In this article, so many of these statements that are made by Amy are done in interviews with the author of this article. And he says that he even approached her with, like, it's pretty convenient that you don't remember the things in the most terrible part of your life. And she's like, well, that's what amnesia does a lot of times. It protects you. Okay. You don't believe her? No. I don't either. No. So finally, they present the case and the judge asked Amy if she has agreed to plead guilty and waive any rights to an appeal. And this is when she addressed the court for the first time. And

she all she said was yes. So then she was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. After Amy was sentenced and all that Alabama authorities in Massachusetts released a statement saying they wouldn't move forward with any charges on that case or try to extradite her because they wouldn't be seeking the death penalty anyway. So she was already fulfilling the sentence that they would have tried to get for her in Alabama. So it just didn't make any sense to move forward with it. And that's when the case took an unexpected turn. Okay.

Amy then made a statement that she wanted to be tried for Seth's death. Well, what the hell? Bring on the charges, Massachusetts. I want to clear my name. Okay, you don't get to make that call. Which is essentially exactly what they said. So her public defender says she wants to use a trial to help demonstrate that she's innocent. And Amy in her statement said, I want the truth to come out.

I want that for me, for my parents, for closure. But okay, but in theory theory our parents already know the truth right yeah even if even if they're all telling the truth either way they know what really happened so that's yeah okay in the end of course amy doesn't get to say that wait but no she demanded it yeah so why not she went to har Oh, maybe she should have said that. I am Dr. Amy Bishop. And I demand to be charged in this case or I will punch you in the fucking face. Give me some pancakes.

That's right. And a booster seat. I got to say, that's pretty snotty for an IHOP. I mean, yeah. Yeah. So Amy is currently serving her life sentence without the possibility of parole in an Alabama women's prison. Women's prison.

In an Alabama women's prison. No, do we mean that? Wow. There was a civil suit brought against Amy and Jim and the university by multiple victims and they were all settled out of court. So, of course course i don't know anything about them did they feel like the university should the university should have known that this was a possibility that they should have seen the signs that they knew she was

a risk and that they didn't protect her colleagues wow yep and that is the story of a biology professor. Isn't that bananas? That's dark. Yeah. I had never heard that. I had never heard of it. Yeah. Yeah. I do feel like I've been beating up on Harvard.

So I just want to say, at Simmons, the best professors I had and the worst professors all went to Harvard. The worst ones always let you know that they went to Harvard. That's where I'm coming from. The best ones, you always found out later, oh, they went to Harvard. I do want to add one thing because I don't think I did a very good job of mentioning the victims' names. So I want to read their names. Yeah, yeah, sure. So the three victims who lost their lives were Gopi Padilla, Maria Ragland Davis, and Adriel Johnson Sr. The three who were wounded and survived were Luis Cruz Vera, Joseph Leahy, and Stephanie Montecholo. All right. Well, that was really sad and awful. Yeah. I've got something less awful.

Oh, good. I love that you're on a celebrity kick right now. I am on a celebrity kick. I'm kind of having fun with it. This trial, I remember pretty well. Do you remember it from back in the day? Yeah, yeah. So one very helpful article for this was called Show Trial.

It was written by Duncan Campbell for The Guardian. And then whoever put the Court tv website on whatever the internet way back archive thing god bless the wayback machine that's what it's called yeah um yeah they have this archive and just tons of articles so you know excellent thank you love you goodbye winona writer yeah she's a super talented actress who we know from movies like okay i saw heathers it's the heathers right no it's just heathers okay well fine heathers edward scissorhands little women girl interrupted and more recently the tv show stranger things excuse me brandy isn't that into. Okay, fucking love Stranger Things.

How dare you? I just said that to push you off. Um, hello, Beetlejuice. Oh, right. Well, I'm not going to go through the whole list. That's like one of her top movies. Did she get an Oscar nomination for it? No.

But she did for Age of Innocence, and I didn't name that one here. So just calm down. I've never seen that. Neither have I. Wynonna Ryder has been rich and famous for a very long time. So it shocked the shit out of everyone when in December of 2001, she got caught shoplifting. At that point in her career, she was 30 years old. She'd been nominated for two Oscars.

She'd been in an episode of Friends. She dated Johnny Depp before he became terrifying. So... Yeah, he had a Winona Forever tattoo. Yeah. Yeah. Had to get it changed to Wino Forever. No, he didn't.

Yes. Well, that's a little on the nose. Isn't he an alcoholic? I think so. His whole divorce thing. Oh, you cover that one. You cover it. No, you're the one doing all the celebs. But don't you kind of love Johnny Depp?

Yeah. Why would I want to talk about how terrible he is? You're right. I don't love Johnny Depp. Maybe I, okay, I will do it. So, what was the story? I don't actually love him anymore. I did really used to like him. Well, yeah.

Everybody used to like him. Now, I mean, he did Pirates of the Caribbean 14. Do you think... Secret Window, favorite Johnny Depp movie. Oh, that is a good one. Yeah. I'm sorry, when you said Secret Window, I thought you meant, like, let's have a secret time that we'll edit out.

I'm going to start doing that. Secret Window, what's your favorite thing we've done today? But, okay, the eyeliner thing. Yeah. Do you think that was like he started doing that for Pirates of the Caribbean and he just loved it so much?

Yeah, and then he was like, look how damn good I look. I mean, that's been my experience with eyeliner. Once you dabble, you gotta have it. Exactly.

All right. Once you pop, you can't stop. Let that be a warning to everyone out there. So, here's the story. no lovely lady who was bringing up three very lovely girls you know the hardest part about this stopping yes yes stopping is the hardest part because i'm like nobody enjoyed that they're not gonna enjoy 30 seconds more of it.

But you should all know that they all had hair of gold. Like their mother. The youngest one in curls. Okay, okay. We don't have the time for this. Wynonna was in Saks Fifth Avenue shopping around. You know how it is. Just very shoulder movie. We have a Saks Fifth Avenue outlet

out here, so we're just trying to brag to you guys kansas city's very metropolitan cosmopolitan what what do i mean cosmopolitan all right that's us that's us i don't think it's around anymore at one time we we couldn't even afford the outlet when security officers say they saw her popping tags i'm gonna pop some things why do you do this kristin i can't help it the thought came to me and i was like i could say popping tags like five times in this episode she was walking around i mean she looked ridiculous she was walking around. I mean, she looked ridiculous. She was walking around with these huge bags. Yeah. She kind of looked like, okay, I'm going to make fun of my friend Christina.

You know, we took a college girl's trip to Vermont like a couple weekends ago. And instead of taking like one big suitcase and just being like, yeah, I'm overpacking. She grabbed like 15 tote bags and just filled them. That's how Wynonna Ryder looked. Like just all tote bags. Yes. And then a tiny little person stuck amongst the tote bags. So here's the thing.

The longer she shopped, the fuller those bags seemed to be. That is alarming if she's not actually exchanging any money during all of that. Right. That's kind of a key part in the shopping experience. Then she left the store. Didn't stop at the register. When they confronted her, because they'd been watching her for quite some time. Back up, I think I might have burped.

How long ago did you burp at the beginning of the episode? Yes! Then she left the store. Did not stop at the register to pay. Excellent. Sure. When they confronted her, they discovered that she had, okay, the sources on this vary widely. The most sources say about $5,500 worth of merchandise.

Okay, which sounds like a lot. From Saks, probably not that much. Okay, you'd be surprised by how far that can go. Okay. But yeah, I mean, it was very pricey stuff. Also, she had a whole bunch of prescription medication, which she didn't have a prescription for. So, not great.

So, one of the most famous actresses in the world was arrested and charged with grand theft and possessing pharmaceutical drugs without a prescription people were like oh what yeah but winona's lawyer mike garagos gar, Mike Garagos. Oh, shit. It's Mark. Oh, for fuck's sake. But Wynonna's lawyer, Mark Garagos.

Excellent job. Who, by the way, went on to represent upstanding citizens such as Michael Jackson, Scott Peterson, and Chris Brown. Only reason I knew the pronunciation of his last name. Really? Was it because of Michael Jackson, Scott Peterson, and Chris Brown. Only reason I knew the pronunciation of his last name. Really? Was it because of Michael Jackson? Scott Peterson. Oh, okay. When are you going to do that one?

It's too overwhelming. Would you get your shit together and cover Scott Peterson, please? And then OJ Simpson. You ever heard of him? I know there's another one that I've been teasing for a really long time. It's just too overwhelming. What's the other one? Jodi Arias.

You love Jodi Arias. I know. Don't say I love Jodi Arias. I loved the trial. You love a sneaky woman. That's your thing. Maybe it's because I am a sneaky woman. Not really.

I'm not at all. I'm way too anxious to be a sneaky woman. Not really. I'm not at all. I'm way too anxious to be a sneaky woman. Do you want to tell them about the meme I sent you that you, like, shit your pants? I did! Okay, tell them. That's the perfect reaction to that meme. Yes, yes.

Yeah, Kristen sent me this meme today that was, hold on, I gotta pull it up here. It's a picture of a dude with a knife in his heart and he's just, like, smiling away. And it says, when you expect the worst and the worst happens, but you're happy because you expected correctly. It's fucking me. And I was like, what happened? Did something bad happen?

And I was like, no, it just reminded me of us, how we are sometimes. And I think that my reaction was perfect. You're like, I knew it. What happened? Yeah. So Wynonna's lawyer was like, hey, everybody. It's cool. It's just a gigantic misunderstanding.

He said, once they get all of the facts, they will see that she did not take anything. What? Yeah, you heard me. What about all the stuff in her bags? Well, there's an explanation, Brandy. Okay. Here's what really happened. According to Wynonna's attorney.

Great. See, Wynonna wasn't trying to steal clothes. No. No! Of course not. She was simply carrying the clothes from department to department. That's all. And she bought all of the items at the different departments within the store.

And she had receipts. Where were the receipts? Shut up. Show me the receipts. And the drug stuff? Well, I mean, you know, you want my opinion. She was probably only charged with possession because she didn't have her prescription on her at that moment. You know, people were just being kind of extra about the whole thing.

Uh-huh. So cool your jets. Yeah. Wynonna was released from jail after posting $20,000 bail, which I'm sure she found in her couch cushion. I'm sure she did, yes. But this news story was big. After she was arrested, the DA's office announced that not only had Wynonna for sure done

what she was accused of doing, but there was video evidence. They had her on video cutting the tags on items. Well, that's terrible. Yeah, I mean, what more do you want? Yeah. The DA was going balls to the wall on this thing. Needs to be said at least once per episode.

That's right. I'm being paid by the National Ball Association. You should be paid by the ball guys. But not everyone was on the DA's side. I'm curious if you'll remember this because I remember it really well. Well, you're not going to remember this part. This is ridiculous. A man who called himself a t-shirt journalist, which is not a thing and it's totally ridiculous,

made free Winona t-shirts. Do you remember those? Yeah. Yes. He also made shopping bags that had Winona's face on one side and I paid for this stuff on the other, which I would die. I want one so bad. Apparently he tried to get those tote bags sold in sacks and I don't think so.

Also, just because I think this guy's kind of a hoot, you should know that he got a lot of publicity from this, which is obnoxious. But he took advantage of the publicity by saying that anyone who had ever won an Oscar or had a star on Hollywood Boulevard was welcome to come into his store and shoplift $50 worth of merchandise. And if you'd only been nominated for an Oscar, you could have $25 worth of merchandise. If you were nominated for an Oscar, you could have $25. So, you might be thinking, hmm, a famous actress got charged with something. Please, tell me about her plea deal.

Well, I can't tell you about her plea deal. Why? I hate that voice. You just hiss. I hate it. Because Niall Winona didn't get one. Here's the thing, Brandi. There was a new DA in town.

Ooh. His name was Steve Cooley. And he was too cooley for Scooley. Oh, no. Please, no. Okay, this is reminding me. Well, on the Patreon bonus episode where you were talking about a woman named Summer who changed her name several times and I asked if her previous name had been Winter. The jokes on this podcast.

I mean. Top tier. Yep. No one would have thought of that Cooley for Schoolie thing. So he had campaigned on this idea that his opponent, who was the incumbent district attorney, was way too soft on famous people. During the election, he said that his opponent's motto was money talks, celebrities walk. Oh. So there was no way in hell that Steve Cooley was going to give Winona Ryder a deal. E.

I thought that was genuinely funny. Plus, I mean, the prosecution really didn't need to make a deal. They had a hell of a case. Yes. So on top of all the stuff that I've already mentioned, they learned that this was sort of Wynonna's fun little deal. Turns out she had been suspected of stealing from Barney's and Neiman Marcus. What? So in a closed hearing, the prosecution told the judge, hey, this isn't the first time she's been suspected of doing this.

It's just the first time she's facing consequences. Do you think it's just the first time she's facing consequences do you think it's just uh i'm a celebrity let me see what the fuck i can get away with absolutely yeah absolutely because she doesn't need no you know yeah it's not hurting for money no it's totally about yeah i think entitlement and a thrill seeking and all that bullshit not a huh? I don't like it at all. Yeah. She thought she was too cooly for schoolie. Let's see if she gets away with it. They were like,

we've got video evidence of her doing the exact same thing she's accused of doing at Saks. I mean, we're talking the big bags, they fill up, you know, and then she just doo-doo-loo walks out. When we go to trial, we want to tell the jury about these other incidents. They need to know about these prior bad acts.

And the defense is like, abso-fucking-lutely not. Very good. That is a direct quote from Mike Garagos. Mark Garagos. Garagos. Garagos. Oh, no. He seems like the kind of guy who would be really cool with his name being mispronounced.

I think he would love it. But Wynonna's defense attorney, what's his butt, was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hey, in these previous instances, she was not detained. She was never arrested. Come on. The prosecution is just trying to throw in more garbage because they've got a weak case. Ultimately, the judge sided with the defense. He said that the evidence of prior shoplifting would impair the defendant's ability to have a fair trial. I know.

I don't like it. I don't like it either. Seems like she was doing the exact same thing. It seems pertinent to me. Yeah. So in the winter of 2002, Wynonna Ryder went on trial. But first, the judge dismissed the drug charge. Why?

Her doctor came forward and said that he gave her the drugs without a prescription. What, like sample packs? Okay. So I didn't write this part down so everybody drink but i believe the story was like oh i gave her some generic stuff without a prescription and so you know i was like oh oh is she just in trouble for taking generic oh well lock us all up you know but so the idea is oh it's the doctor's fault okay okay how much did that doctor get paid to do that? We're going to get back to this doctor at the end of the episode.

So one of the first things that struck people a little bit odd about this whole thing was jury selection. One of the members of the jury was a guy named Peter Guber. I think it's Guber. Maybe guber? G-U-B-E-R? Listen, he's very successful. So he's fine. He's fine. Peter was an executive at Sony and I saw his exact title somewhere. It was very high up. Wynonna had made two movies for Sony, Dracula and The Age of Innocence, and he worked there when Wynonna was cast in Little Women. Yeah, that's not a conflict of interest.

He shouldn't be able to be on the jury. Right, that's what he thought. He was like, there's no way in hell I'm getting on this jury. But he was put on the jury. What? Yeah, so there were some different theories of like, maybe they just felt like this trial is happening in this area of California

where there are going to be a lot of people who are tied to the movie industry. So there's no way we can possibly eliminate everybody. I don't know. I mean, that's possible, I guess. But still, I mean, he profited a lot from her work. Yeah. Anyway, the trial got started. What a goober.

It's not his fault. I guess not. The trial got started. Except on the first day of trial, Wynonna didn't show up. What? I know. I know. So Judge Eldon Fox was like, all right, I guess we'll see everybody tomorrow. The next day she did show up, which was very big of her. She didn't get held in contempt of court for not showing up? Not that I saw. It really just seemed like it was like, ooh, ooh, checking our watches, Wynonna's not here.

Well, you know, she better get here tomorrow. Oh, my God. Or else. Yeah. Okay. In opening arguments, the prosecution said that this was a simple case of theft. Prosecutor Ann Rundle said, When you enter a department store with the intent

of stealing, that is burglary. When you cut the tags off of merchandise, that is vandalism. When you walk out the door with $5,560.40 worth of stolen property, that is grand theft, no matter who you are. Yeah, accurate. But then the defense got up, and Mark Garagos, thank you, nailed it, was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is a case about a woman

who has been wronged and wronged terribly. Okay. She had a credit card on file with them. She told the clerk to keep it open. And later, when she was detained, she told them, You've got my credit card. You can do what you want with it. I don't think that's a bad argument, actually. Okay, but if you have your credit card on file...

Okay, hold on. I actually think it explains the cutting the tags. No, it doesn't. Unless she got rid of them. Explain, explain. Okay, my thought is that she's got a credit card on file. So she cuts the tags on everything she's keeping. She takes that to the counter.

They charge her credit card for whatever. She obviously did not take it to the counter. So she stole. But I could see that being a process okay a lot of clothes have sensors on them oh that's true yeah i know she cut the sensors out yeah she was stealing yeah here's the mark garagos almost got me i know you were sucked in weren't you here's the truth brandy see see how easy it'd be able to suck me into a cult christian you keep saying that i mean maybe it would i don't know i'm scared what would i have to do to get you out of the cult oh i don't even know how far

in am i real far in oh you think you're you know, a few thousand dollars from like owning your own planet or whatever. What if I went to go try to suck you out because I'm so confident in my own abilities? And you get sucked in? Yeah, and you're like, join the club. So here's the truth about this whole situation that nobody knows. But, you know, your buddy Mark has it all figured out. OK. OK, don't call him my buddy.

Clearly you two are best friends. This is a case of a bunch of security guards getting out of control. What? Yeah. Yeah. Mark's lost me now. Oh, come on. The first person called to the witness stand was a security guy for Saks.

He told the jury that when he confronted Wynonna, she told him that she was just researching a role. Hmm. Yeah. She was working on a role about a person who shoplifts. And he had really, you know, it was kind of rude. He just interrupted rehearsal. Well, that's terrible for her defense. In fact, it was a director who told her that she should go rehearse shoplifting.

No. Yes, yes. So this was all on the up and up. It's for acting. What's the role? Well. What's the film, Wendona? No follow-up questions please but then they called another

sax security person named colleen rainey and colleen was like uh well okay but she told me that she thought her assistant had paid for everything see that's how you do it you confuse everyone what that's how i don't think anyone's confused. She's got like 12 different stories. You tell all these different stories and nobody gets their story straight. And then she just out the store with all the stuff. Yeah, but she was arrested. I know.

It didn't work. But that's what I'm saying. That was her strategy. That was a terrible strategy. Have you ever seen like the change scam at the counter? Yeah. I feel like it's an elevated version of that okay i don't know i don't think she did it right i think it's just classic lying where you're like

that doesn't seem to be working how about this one let me pivot yeah colleen said that she'd watched winona through the slats of a fitting room door what yeah Well, you know. I'm so, what? I was peeping in that fitting room. I saw what you did. Yeah. What? Well, I mean, Wynonna wasn't naked. It's fine.

Is it? Turns out she was taking sensor tags off of garments using a pair of orange-handled scissors. I'm really disturbed by this. I mean, I don't know what's telling me. She her doing something, but what the fuck was she doing peeping? She suspected her of shoplifting. Huh. Yeah. All right.

Yeah. That could have gone very differently. What if she was just in there changing clothes? I mean... And she caught her. Yeah, that could have gone very differently. I think they were pretty sure. Pretty sure she was stealing at that point.

I mean, I hope. I do, too. That's what I'm saying. What if she was truly peeping, and then she was like, oh, my gosh, and stealing. Yes. That's what I'm saying. I think that's what happened. She was like, I'm going to go peep on Winona Ryder.

I really don't think so. Oh, my gosh, she's stealing. In a minute, I'm going to have you look up the surveillance footage, just the still images. You will... It's so clear that she was shoplifting. That's not what Mike Garagos says. Oh, Mark Garagos. During cross-examination, Wynonna's attorney was very, very extra.

He accused the security people of lying. He got really into them about stuff like, well, why didn't this appear in your initial write-up? And, you know, later it did, and this is an outrage. When he was cross-examining Colleen, he was like, isn't it true that you threw a chapstick at Wynonna Ryder?

What? And you called her a bitch. What? Then, you rifled through her filofax, which I don't even know. Why does she have a Filofax? Does that mean, is that a Rolodex? One of those old fashioned? No, I think a Filofax is like a, like a date book.

Okay. Well, all right. She had one. It was 2001. All right. And you were so thrilled to see Keanu Reeves' phone number and Bono's too, weren't you? And Colleen was like, no, I didn't do anything. I didn't throw a chapstick.

Can you imagine? That'll show him. Gonna hit him with his chapstick. Hit him with his chapstick. Why go to the shooting range when you can just get a bunch of chapstick? At one point, the judge had to be like, Mr. Garagos,

Garagos. Garagos. You are trying my patience. No word on whether the judge pronounced it correctly. Mark also showed the jury Colleen's bank records. They showed that her husband,

who was a, an article called him a struggling screenwriter, had received 50 grand in the time since Wynonna had been arrested. Clearly, he'd sold the story. Colleen was profiting off of all this. She just wanted to get famous off this case. Obviously. She couldn't be trusted. But Colleen was like,

And she's a peeping Tom. And she throws chapstick. But Colleen was like, No, I haven't profited off of this. I have student loans. I drive a 1991 Toyota Supra. Hey, that's a sports car. Okay, but it was a 91 and this was 2002. All right. I mean, she's pulling a Kristen Toyota Supra. Hey, that's a sports car. Okay, but it was a 91

and this was 2002. All right. I mean, she's pulling a Kristen, but still. Finally, the prosecution got to stand up and Ann was like, how much money have you made

as a result of the arrest of Wynonna Ryder on December 12th, 2001? And Colleen said, zero. Yeah. And then, just to be hilarious, Anne turns and was like, uh, yo, Mark, since we're talking about people getting famous off this case, how many times

have you gone on Larry King to discuss this case? And Mark was like, bleh. Everyone in the gallery laughed. But Mark pressed on. He was like, this is a witch hunt. The Saks security people just wanted to get a celebrity any way they could. It's true, Brandy. No. Don't make your eyebrows like that. I'm going to smooth them out. As evidence, I get ready to eat some shit here.

I'm not going to eat anything. As evidence, he called Michael Shore to the stand. Michael was a former Saks employee, and he said that after Wynonna got arrested, he went and had lunch with one of his old coworkers. In fact, the former coworker who he had lunch with was the first person who'd been called to the witness stand. Yep. Michael said that his former coworker conf confided in him about winona's arrest he said he wanted to and i'm quoting nail that beverly hills bitch bring her down one way or another do you think he meant that sexually

this was all horrifically misunderstood the guy's like i just wanted to have sex with her what do you think of that uh yeah i think that's probably true you think that they were like after celebrities yeah come on brandy i think they were like these celebrities think they fucking own this town. You think that if you had that attitude, you'd work at a Saks? No. Okay. I don't at all. No, I'm sure they weren't targeting celebrities, but I'm sure that there had been incidents

where they had been treated badly by celebrities before. So when they saw an opportunity to make an example of a celebrity, they wanted to do everything they could. Okay, Mark. So this was pretty damning. Mm-hmm. I mean, it still looked like Wynonna had done it, but still. Maybe she was the victim of a conspiracy.

But then it turned out that our boy Michael was in some kind of legal dispute with Saks Fifth Avenue and wasn't even allowed to go near the store. In fact, the prosecutor was like uh buddy isn't it true that two weeks ago you stood outside of sax fifth avenue and handed out pamphlets on like how much they suck really and he had to be like yes and han said isn't it true as you sit here today that you're angry with Saks Fifth Avenue? And he said, no. And the jury and everyone in the gallery once again laughed

because it was so ridiculous. Clearly, our boy Michael was just a weirdo with an axe to grind. I don't know that he was weird. Well, the pamphlet thing's pretty weird. Pamphlet thing's pretty weird. I would love to know what the pamphlet said. What did it say?

I don't know. At one point, the jury got to examine all the items that Wynonna had allegedly shoplifted. They saw the $760 Marc Jacobs floral print top. Oh, that's too much for a shirt. I mean, it sounds terrible. It's a thermal floral print top. You never said thermal. That was the first time you said thermal.

Well, I knew thermal. I didn't write it down in my notes. So that's like my gift to you. And we're talking like a waffle net. That's what I'm envisioning. Huh? Yeah. 700. No, no. You ever been to Costco? I mean, come on. And by the way, it had a big hole in it from where the security tag used to be. There was also a $200 headband, which I didn't even know that... Existed. Yeah. An $80 pair of cashmere socks,

which sounds wonderful. It does sound wonderful. There was a $1,500 white floor-length Gucci dress. There was a beige handbag. I'm just giving you, like, a few of these things. The beige handbag appeared to be stained with blood. How's that? The thinking is that she was getting a little. Did she cut herself on the scissors? Yeah, the scissors. Okay. Getting a little scissor happy. Getting a little Edward

scissor hands. That's exactly right. Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice. It's not the same movie? Nope. The jury also saw the three security tags, which had fabric stuck to them that matched the three garments with holes in them. So, I mean, what more do you fucking want? They also heard testimony from one of the security guards who said that at one point, Wynonna went into the Chanel boutique. And later, they found four security tags tucked into a coat pocket in the Chanel department. Three of those tags were the ones with the fabric. That sounds like a coincidence. Just bad luck, really.

I think it sounds like these security guards are plotting. They're out to get her. Yeah. This was planted evidence. Then there was the surveillance tape. In the surveillance footage, Wynonna looks sketchy as hell. As I've said, she's got like a thousand bags hanging off her. She looks like she stole the whole damn store.

And she's wearing a hat which has a price tag on it. Oh my gosh, can I find this? Okay, Google it. Yeah. Okay. I don't know what you have to Google. Wynonna Ryder shoplifting images. Oh yeah.

That is a lot of bags. And yet she's got that hat on. She's got like coat draped over. She's got like, I mean, ridiculous. Yeah. My God, she's so pretty. She doesn't age. Yeah, just the freshest skin.

Is stealing an anti-aging thing? I mean, how? But interestingly, before the trial, I mentioned, the DA's office had been like, on the security footage we have, you can see her cutting these tags. Yeah. It didn't show that. Ooh. That was just a lie.

But the prosecution was like, look, just watch her. She takes a garment into the fitting room. That's where she removed the tag. She hides it in her bag and then she emerges with really bulky looking bags. In closing arguments, Deputy District Attorney Ann Rundle said that Wynonna had shoplifted for the thrill of it. She said, she came, she saw, she shoplifted. We've presented the truth. Vinny Vidi shoplifting. What? Isn't truth. Vinny Vidi shoplifted. What? Isn't that what Vinny Vidi Vici means?

I have no idea. In case I conquered? Oh, okay. Well. I don't know. Maybe it's not. I mean, I trust you. I thought you were naming pasta dishes.

Yeah. In your fucking face, Kristen. I'm so sorry. Vinny. They've given you a story That could only have been written in Hollywood Then Mark gets up

Guns blazing And he's like The sex How do you get guns in the courtroom? Brandy come on Okay chapsticks blazing He's just throwing chapsticks everywhere And people are like

It was a terrible day They have a memorial Chapsticks everywhere. And people were like, oh! It was a terrible day. They have a memorial that's just a big chapstick. Stop it. No, it wouldn't be chapstick. That'd be horrible. Just like fresh lips. Fresh lips.

The SAC's security manager was totally full of it. He just wanted his 15 minutes of fame. Wynonna was innocent. The jury went into deliberation for about six hours. Wow. I know. I mean, what the hell? That's a long time.

I don't know, guys. You think she's researching a role or what? Maybe they're trying to get free lunch. Oh, some journalist was like, good thing she's not working on a role about serial killing. Am I right? Yeah! was like good thing she's not working on a role about serial killing am i right they found winona guilty of grand theft and vandalism but they acquitted her of burglary she faced up to three years in prison but the prosecution said hey this was never about jail time if you give her community service probation and make her pay restitution to

sacks we're good so in december of 2002 she was sentenced to three years of probation 480 hours of community service yeah yikes wow in order to pay 6 355 dollars in restitution to Saks and $3,700 in fines. Wow. Okay. That doctor. Yeah. That same month. Tell me more.

Tell me more. Did you get very far? The doctor who had a car had given Wynoda. Had given Wynonna the drugs she was carrying on the day of her arrest, lost his medical license. The Medical Board of California said that Jules Mark Lussman had made his career out of catering to the demands of wealthy and or famous drug seekers. Wow.

A few years later, after looking at Wynonna's probation report, that same judge who oversaw her trial agreed to knock her felonies down to misdemeanors. Wow. Yeah. Must be nice. No kidding. Does everyone get that treatment? No one gets that. No one else gets that.

For years, Wynonna didn't speak publicly about the trial. But in 2007, she broke her silence. What'd she say? I always hate those headlines. She said, I didn't have this tremendous sense of guilt because I hadn't hurt anyone. Victimless crime. Yeah.

Had I physically harmed someone or caused harm to a human being, I think it would have been an entirely different experience. That's a terrible statement. Yeah. Wow. I think it's really shitty. Yeah. Like six years later and that's the lesson you've walked away with? Wow.

Yeah, I don't like it at all. Not at all. I was kind of, I don't know. I wanted to root for her, but that really sucked. Yeah, that's terrible. She said that a few months before she'd been arrested, she broke her arm. And a sort of quack doctor had given her a bunch of pain pills. And she'd become dependent on them.

I think she was trying to say that like that mindset kind of led to. But I mean, she'd been thought to be shoplifting long before she claims that she became dependent on these pills. Anyway, she said that her arrest was a blessing in a weird way because after that, she didn't take the pills anymore. Citation needed. Yeah. Did you see that, you know, that award show? Yes, with the facial expressions. Yeah. It's bizarre., you know, that awards show? Yes, with the facial expressions? Yeah. It's bizarre.

Is it bizarre or is it drugs? Well, TBD. And, uh, that's the story of Wynonna Ryder's shoplifting trial. That was so good. I loved that. I hate that those security guards were all out to get her and like

They stopped. I'm having fun on these celebrities. Yeah, I enjoy the celebrity ones. Yeah. Yeah, they're fun. I enjoy all the murders that you do. Thank you. Kristen, did you want to compliment me on my shirt?

No, I didn't. That's weird. No. shirt no i didn't that's weird no brandy my goodness a ripley's believe it or not shirt that's right where on earth did you get that i got it at ripley's believe it or not in branson with you oh my gosh that was my favorite place we went in branson. Oh my gosh. No. The Titanic Museum. No. I liked the Titanic Museum. Ripley's Believe It or Not way better. Will you please tell people why you were so excited to go to the Titanic Museum?

Why? Oh, so I could put my hand in the water. You guys. You guys at the Titanic Museum. You can go and you can stick your hand in the water. That's the same temperature as the water was that night that people had to, you know, fall off the boat into. So every time I see Brandy now, I just have a jug of very cold water and I charge her 30 bucks to put her hand in it. I could not withstand that water for more than a few seconds. It was so cold.

You know, I was trying to explain the Titanic Museum. And, you know, Branson is Las Vegas run by Ned Flanders, as has been said. Yes. It's funny because that museum, they're clearly walking a balance of being very respectful to the victims, but also being like, we're in Branson. Yes. So a lot of respect paid. But also there is a part of the museum where you climb on. Yes!

How do you even describe it? It's like... Okay, yeah, so they've got, like, the ship deck set up at different inclines, like, on different phases of when the Titanic was sinking. So you can climb it and see, like, how long you could hold on. That is really terrible, now that you think about it. Did you not think of it at the time? No! I thought, hey, look

how strong my calf muscles are. This doesn't seem like a big deal at all. It's very insensitive. It's really weird. It's really weird. And I say that, but your girl was climbing you did you climbed it i had to know yeah also you could buy a heart of the ocean oh what are we what are we oh

my god we almost didn't talk about the gift shop yeah so in the gift shop first of all you can buy the heart of the ocean necklace yeah tacky as hell only 15 the weirdest thing you can buy is a survivor bracelet. Which doesn't seem like a thing that should be sold. It's not. So it is a leather bracelet with, like, a little circle medallion on it that looks like a lifesaver that says, Survivor. Who buys that? Well, no one should be buying that because no one survived

the titanic that is alive right now okay yeah no one should be buying that i think it's in poor taste that they're selling it you think they made those like 100 years ago and just made too many leftover stock um no so when you go they give you like the name of an actual passenger or crew person on the titanic and like as you go through you find out like what happened to your person so maybe some people survive and then they feel like they no i don't i don't know they also had shot glasses that said titanic on them and like the font seemed to be made of ice real real weird real weird choices they also had ornaments and i kind of wish I would have gotten one.

You should have got one. I get weird because Norman doesn't support my love of Christmas ornaments. Bit of a Grinch, if you will. I tried to get David to buy Brandy a Heart of the Ocean necklace. I was not interested. I know you. Your desires have no impact on whether I want you to be presented a Heart of the Ocean necklace. What would you do if David got you that seriously for Christmas?

Oh. Would you put on a happy face? Yeah, I would. Would you wear it? Ooh, no. He bought it for you for Christmas. So here's a fun fact. I would have a good excuse because I can't really wear necklaces.

Oh, is this some fresh bullshit you're making up? No. But yeah, you don't wear necklaces. They irritate my scar. Oh, so you'd be like, oh my God, I would love nothing more to wear this necklace and only this necklace. Yeah, so I had my thyroid removed, so I have a big scar. I mean, it's not a big scar. It's only like 17 inches. I have a scar on my throat from it. And yeah, it irritates it to have like a necklace on it. And so yeah, I can't wear necklaces. What if he was like, Oh, yeah, okay, I'm so sorry. I should have noticed. And then he had it made into a bracelet.

I'd be like, I think I will knock my clients out with this. Wow. That's heartbreaking that you wouldn't. Okay. All right. David, please don't get me the heart of the ocean. It's too late now. Yeah, that was a really fun trip. They also had Laffy Taffy bars there, which are like my favorite thing on the planet.

And I did not buy one. And I'm regretting that. I don't know. Why didn't I get an ornament? They didn't have banana. Well, yeah, banana is the best flavor. Did you see that laffy taffy released a bag of all bananas no yeah did you know that i feel like i've already told you this recently what the banana yeah you said okay i just told you sunday didn't i well i didn't tell the listeners did you guys know that the

artificial banana flavor that like banana candy, which is delicious, is how bananas are actually supposed to fucking taste? I don't believe it. It's true. Hang on. I'm Googling. What do I Google? How bananas are supposed to taste?

Banana runts, also the best runt. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what to be Googling. Banana Laffy Taffys also taste like circus peanuts. Do you like circus peanuts? I've never had circus peanuts because they always freak me out. They look disgusting.

They taste like banana Laffy Taffy. Really? Yeah. This is sad. I always thought they looked like old jumbo erasers. At this point, if Norm was here, which if you guys haven't noticed already, Norm's not here. Yeah, he was like, oh, I'm too busy. I'm too busy.

But at this point, he would assign listener homework, which would be to send us banana flavored candy. So, yeah, in honor of Norm, please send banana flavored candy. No, I always feel guilty because then like they pay a lot in shipping. All right. Only do it if you really want to and if you really love us. We're listening, mom. Or no, we're waiting mom okay all right all right this article is entitled ahem why bananas just don't taste as good as they used to is it actually entitled ahem or was that no that was me getting your attention because you'd been so rude all right uh blah blah blah, blah. Oh, God. Lots of intro here. Blah, blah, blah. Good grief.

Get to the point. Blah. Good fucking God. A picture of bananas. Okay. We all know what bananas look like. Oh, my God. Well, who has the time?

All you really need to know is that I'm right. Oh, my God. Who? This is like Amy's dissertation that should have been rejected five times. Okay, I... Great, bananas are supposed to taste like banana-flavored candy, guys. I'm pretty sure. Kristen's like 60% sure.

That's really accurate. Maybe less. Maybe less than 60% sure. I'm sure someone will reach out and let us know. Yes, please do. And please send us bananas. For Norm. Yeah, not for us.

We certainly wouldn't be interested at all. No. Hey, should we do inductions? Let's do inductions. Pulling up a list. For this week, we are doing favorite TV shows. Ooh. In preparation for these inductions, we'd like you all to grab your nearest novelty boat.

See if you can walk up the deck. Yes. And a very steep incline. Stay there for as long as you can. It's a great workout and also weirdly disrespectful. Extremely disrespectful. Do you want to tell people how to get inducted on the Supreme Court first? Oh, yes.

Yes, I do. I mean, they're already up on the poop deck hanging on for dear life, but I guess I'll keep talking. Okay, guys, here's how you do it. You go onto patreon.com backslash forward slash doesn't matter. You do you. LGTC podcast for $7 a month. You get inducted on this very podcast, not anyone else's podcast, and you get into the discord.

You get bonus episodes. You get case updates. You get to vote on topics it's pretty i think i've run through new videos coming soon videos coming video coming soon all right everybody holding on nice and nice and tight kayla veronica mars derrick lester alias josie dimpsy the office laura parks and recreation joey futurama christy anderson The Office. Parks and Recreation. Futurama. Outlander.

Mystery Science Theater 3000. Melinda Rothwell. Hell's Kitchen. Kelly. Amy Licari. New Girl. Arrested Development. Ali Bob's Burgers. Amy Licari. New Girl. Ali Brady. Arrested Development.

Eliza. Evenly split between Schitt's Creek and Crazy Ex-Girlfriend. Welcome to the Supreme Court. Oh my gosh, guys. Thank you for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways. You know, when you say it that way every time it seems insincere.

Wow. You know you could say it sometimes, Kristen. I'm not grateful at all. We really do appreciate it more than we can say. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, Reddit, Patreon, of course. Once you've done all that, please subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And then head on over to Apple Podcasts, leave us a rating, leave us a review.

And then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from Court TV, the BBC, CBS News, and the article Show Trial by Duncan Campbell for The Guardian. I got my info from the article

A Loaded Gun by Patrick Radden Keefe for The New Yorker, as well as an article for AL.com and Murderpedia.org. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it.

Go read their stuff.