Lex Fridman Podcast - #196 – Yeonmi Park: North Korea

Starting point is 00:00:00 The following is a conversation with Yon Mi Park, a North Korean defector, human rights activist, and author of the book, in order to live. Quick mention of our sponsors, Balcampo, Gallagames, BetterHelp, and 8 Sleep. Check them out in the description to support this podcast. Let me say a few words about North Korea. From 1994 to 1998, North Korea went through a famine, mass starvation, caused primarily by King Jung Il, who at the time was the new leader of North Korea after his father's death in 1994.

Starting point is 00:00:38 Somewhere between 600,000 and 3 million people died due to starvation. From all the stories of famine in history, including my own family history, I've come to understand that hunger tortures the human mind in a way that can break everything we stand for. In North Korea, during the 90s famine, many were driven to cannibalism. Imagine, more than 10 million people suffering starvation for months and years, always on the brink of death. We don't know the exact numbers of people who died because the suffering was done in silence

Starting point is 00:01:16 in darkness. Very little information in or out. Most people had to survive without electricity, without clean water, medical supplies, sanitation, and food. The North Korean propaganda machine called this the Arduous March or the March of Suffering, and words such as famine and hunger were banned because they implied government failure. And once again, now in 2021, Kim Jong Un, the current leader of North Korea, is calling for his country to prepare for another arduous march, or march of suffering. Another period of mass starvation as the country closes its borders.

Starting point is 00:01:57 Looking at atrocities of the past decades, and the encroaching atrocity there now, I think about the quiet suffering of millions of North Koreans. I think about the torture of the human spirit. I think about a North Korean child, who could be a scientist, an artist, a writer, but who instead grows impossibly thin without food, their body slowly riding away as their parents watch helplessly. I got emotional in this conversation with you and me, in part because I remembered my grandmother, who survived called themore, the family of your crane, intentionally created by Stalin, where four to ten million people died and many, many more suffered. Imagine knowing that if you don't engage in cannibalism, you will die before your children

Starting point is 00:02:45 did, and then they will be eaten. Imagine, because of this, deciding to murder in each of your own children, as many people did. Imagine the kind of desperation, torture, that leads up to a decision like that. I'm not smart enough to know what evil is. No where to draw the line between good and evil. But Stalin, King Jung-El, Kim Jong-un, are men who in the name of power are willing to make millions of people, of children, suffer and die from starvation.

Starting point is 00:03:20 I rarely have hate in my heart, but I hate these men. I hate that such men exist in this world. I hate that the beauty I love about this life exists amid such unimaginable cruelty. I have been haunted by this conversation, by memories of my grandmother's pain. But I've also been warmed by memories of her love. Love gives me hope. Hope for the perseverance of the human spirit, even in the face of evil. As usual, I'll do a few minutes of As Now. No ads in the middle. I think those get in the way of the conversation. If you skip the ads,

Starting point is 00:03:59 please still support the sponsors. Check them out. It really is the best way to support this podcast. And they're pretty awesome in that we're very selective in the ones we take on. So hopefully if you buy their stuff, you find value in it just as I have. The show is sponsored by Bel Campo Farms, whose mission is to deliver meat you can feel good about. Meat that is good for you, good for the animals, and good for the planet. Bel Campo animals graze on open pastures and seasonal grasses, resulting in meat that is higher nutrients and healthy fats.

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Starting point is 00:05:37 They created a gaming ecosystem on a blockchain where in-game assets are NFTs that you can keep trade in the game and outside the game. They are attracting big game designers, developers, and they are attracting big game designers, and I think of a real chance to create totally new gaming experiences, speaking of which I really want to talk to a few game designers, especially for the games I've loved. Certainly John Carmack is on that list. We've agreed a long time ago to talk, and I'm actually pretty sure we'll talk many times. He's a brilliant engineer,

Starting point is 00:06:10 brilliant designer, just brilliant mind, and a judo black belt. I think might be a jichitsu black belt, too, just in many ways a kindred spirit. But back to Gala Games, I started playing the town simulation game called Townstar. I created a town called Lexington because I'm very creative Not at all and started building stuff. I love the game Which I had more time to play it by certainly enjoyed it when I did play it I will do my best to do a stream every couple of months of me playing a video game Anyway check it out at galah.games slash lelex. That's gala.gamesslashlex. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp, spelled H-E-L-P-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H-H I've been getting back out there in the grind of running in the Austin heat Exercise especially exercise in hundred degree weather is a kind of therapist nature as a therapist

Starting point is 00:07:19 Struggle is a therapist if you persevere reveals the demons in your mind the things that Maybe you've been running from that you've been afraid of, and you get to deal with them. Obviously, the more rigorous way to do that is by talking to somebody about it. I think exercise, meditation, all those things help reveal the demons, but then you have to, I think, talk through them, process them, sort of find the light at the end of the tunnel, especially if you're struggling, and that, that professional therapist can really help with Better help is easy, private, affordable, available worldwide. Check them out at betterhelp.com slashlex That's betterhelp.com slashlex This episode is sponsored by A sleep and it's pod pro mattress. It controls temperature with an app and it's packed with sensors and can cool down to a little 65 degrees on each side of the bed separately. In the Texas summer heat

Starting point is 00:08:08 even with air conditioning I can't tell you how awesome it feels to take a nap in a cold bed or to get a really nice full night sleep in a cold bed. I tend to enjoy a lot of things about life but this is definitely up there. Great sleep on a cold bed, and then maybe with a bit of a warm blanket, that's heaven. Anyway, they have a pot pro cover, so you can just add that to your mattress without having to buy theirs, but their mattress, I have it, it's pretty nice. If you want to know my opinion, it can track a bunch of metrics like heart rate variability, but cooling alone is worth the money. Go to 8Sleep.com slash Lex to get special savings. That's 8Sleep.com slash Lex.

Starting point is 00:08:55 This is the Lex Friedman podcast and here is my conversation with you on me, Park. Can you tell your story from North Korea to today as you describe in your 2015 book and with the extra perspective on life, love and freedom you've gained since then? Well, that's a long story. So I was born in the northern part of North Korea initially and my father was a party member and my mom was housewife. I had one older sister. And I remember born in that country, I never thought I was an unusual country. Now I'm thinking what is literally called the herd making them. But I thought I believed that I was living in the best country on earth. It was a socialist paradise and everybody in the rest of the world worshipped my dear leader.

Starting point is 00:10:07 And there was nothing to envy for me. So I had this enormous pride in my heart and grieve for to be in that country. So was love for the leader not fear? For me at least, it was love. Yeah, it was other migration and gratitude. It changed the lately, but for me, it was pure, pure like love. Was there any, like, looking back with the perspective you have now?

Starting point is 00:10:37 Would you describe some of those moments growing up as full of happiness, or was that delusion at the time? So not knowing the alternative, were you still able to be happy? The fact that I did not know, like in North Korea, this is the only country in this 21st century has no internet. And they don't even know the existence of internet.

Starting point is 00:11:02 Not only that, we don't even have this 20- for our electricity. So not knowing definitely helped, I think, to be sane. So as a human being, you're still able to find moments of happiness. I think my happiness was from family, nothing else. Even though those days keep telling me that they were the our source of meaning and happiness, I don't think I ever got happy by that. Maybe they're here and they're in schools and like when I was learning propaganda,

Starting point is 00:11:33 the proud feeling, right? I mean the greatest nation. Here and there, but actually true happiness came from laughing with my family, my friends. Are there any childhood memories, pleasant or painful ones that stand out to you now? I mean like, you know, whenever I think about my North Korea, the interesting is there's no color. I mean the one is because North Korean country has no color right most of things are unpaid and trees are cut down we have no fear so people cut down trees to make food so but only that like even what we are wearing was like no color so it's interesting like memory to look back what about? I've noticed from sort of you now, you have quite an incredible sense of fashion. So contrast that with your time in North Korea, how do you remember fashion? Or ways that people could express themselves visually.

Starting point is 00:12:37 Was it all bland? There was no word for fashion in North Korea. We didn't even know. It was not even our dictionary. So of course, I did not know what victory, secret mothers, I didn't even know what mothers were. So when I came out, I learned the mother was a job. And like, what is that?

Starting point is 00:12:56 And I'm still confused. So there's so many jobs that we have here that doesn't exist in North Korea. What was life like in North Korea as compared to the rest of the world? So maybe you said there's no internet. 24 hour electricity is a luxury. You do not have what about food, what about water, what about basic human rights?

Starting point is 00:13:19 I think that's something like when people were asking me, can you tell me about life in North Korea? And in the past, I was like, I cannot describe it to you. And initially, I thought, oh, because of my English, that I cannot find the words. It's not that it's a different planet. The common sense that we have doesn't exist there. Like people literally do not know the concept of romantic love or human rights or liberty. So when I'm thinking back to my country, it's like you cannot imagine your life on Mars right now.

Starting point is 00:13:55 It's like that kind of difference. I grew up never seen the map of the world. I never knew that I was Asian. The regime told me that I was Kim your son of a Kim race. And then our calendar doesn't begin when Jesus Christ was born. Our calendar begins where Kim was born. So, we, and history was forgotten to us. They didn't tell us about, of course, Christianity or like the Big Bang.

Starting point is 00:14:21 Like, our history began when Kim was born. So everything was forgotten to us. And it was a different meaning, I mean, feeling of existence. It's not even like the same life. I literally think that was almost like my past life. And it's like a new life that I began. You're almost like a different human being now.

Starting point is 00:14:43 Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So you've, I have to say, I often say that my favorite book is Animal Farm by George Orwell. I've read it, I don't know how many times. And so I was really happy to hear that. That was of the many books, excellent books that they will hopefully talk about.

Starting point is 00:15:04 You've mentioned that animal farm had a big impact on you. It was the book that kind of led to a kind of awakening for you. Maybe can you describe what impact it had? So after going through what I went through, and I arrived in South Korea after many years of journey, they were saying, so Kim's ridiculous and South Korea is not colonized by American bastards and Americans first of all not bastards, they're good people. And then there is everything that

Starting point is 00:15:35 you believe in North Korea was a lie. It was a propaganda. Then at 15 I was thinking so if everything that I believe was a lie, how do I know what you're telling me is not lie? That was so hard. How do I trust ever again? And I just it was chaos and belief right? I did not know what was true anymore and That's the moment. Few years later, I read this book like animal farm just by mistake was a very short book in the library. I was like, okay, I can finish that quickly. And when they're ending that, like a last chapter, they could not see between the pigs and humans anymore,

Starting point is 00:16:14 like that sentence, I just understood everything what happened. I just made every sense to me, what happened to me, my people, and to my country. Yeah, there's so many things I could say about that book. Yeah, there's a haunting nature to the end, and I guess spoiler alert, but you should have read this already. You're listening to this. At the end, the animals were looking to the humans, and to the pigs, and they couldn't see the difference and then there's this kind of gradual transition from the

Starting point is 00:16:51 initial revolutionary steps of animals fighting for their freedom to slowly the pigs gaining control went from forelegs good to legs bad to forelegs good to legs better. Even better things like that they were. So like gradually transitioning the ideology under which the farm operates and I think the gradual nature of that where basically you have generations born, not knowing how things were in the past. And that's what makes the most kind of for me haunting transition from freedom to slavery, to suffering, to injustice, all those things.

Starting point is 00:17:43 And the animals don't know they're part of that. And also for me personally, I always kind of found a kinship with boxer, the horse, because I just kind of an idiot, I just work really hard. I just work hard. And I just love the idea of working hard for an ideal and the tragic nature of to the end that horse boxer working his ass off for the pride for others. But yeah, for the pride of the farm, you know, and then the pigs giving him sort of using that, then just setting him to this lot of house. Anyway, when he was no longer useful. I mean, there's so many tragic elements that echo everything

Starting point is 00:18:32 I've seen in the Soviet Union and many of the elements that you see in even harsher, more drastic way in North Korea. If there's something hopeful you pull from that book, like within the suffering, within the gradual decline, the taking away the freedom, there were still moments of beauty that seemed like it can be. But I think for me was when I was ending the last page of the book until that point, I was angry towards a dictator. Why do you do this as a human being? I was so angry, dreaming of killing him, revinging my father, the people that he cared. But when I was ending the large chapter, actually everybody was responsible

Starting point is 00:19:15 to create this dystopia in my country. But that animal, the injured animals, they were scared. And they did see the first execution. And then they were not doing their jobs, picking out and keep questioning. They had a question and then the essence they see fear, they silence. Because of that, that's when I was like, my grandma knew life could be different. I think the one thing about North Koreans are unique is that they don't know they are oppressed.

Starting point is 00:19:45 They don't know that they are slaves to the dictator. And the fact that other people know they are oppressed, like in America a lot of people think they are oppressed, like you are not oppressed. You don't even know the definitional oppression. And like that's like when the new animals came, the new animals didn't even know what the life could be like. There's no alternative for them to compare even. And I was like, my grandmother knew, why didn't they not do anything about it? And they were just scared, they kept silent. And everybody was responsible. So the people who knew were too afraid to say, and then there's people that just didn't

Starting point is 00:20:24 even know. And I don't know what's more terrifying about human nature. Looking at this group of people who are afraid to say that things could be otherwise. And then the group of people that don't even know it could be better. No. It's, I don't this, that's the reason I've returned to that book often because it's such maybe because It's interesting using animals to represent ideas that were very human. It almost allows you to explore the darkness of human nature Without sort of being broken by it. So you mentioned anger when I watch your interviews You're really calm and collected. Not just your interviews, you know, Instagram the way you present yourself.

Starting point is 00:21:12 You, um, I don't know. It seems like you're almost at peace with the world. Is there in private times when you're just angry? Do you feel fear? Do you go to dark places, depression, all those kinds of things? Are you able to put that world that you are in behind you? It's a joke because I talk about North Korea every single day and I still rescue people like from China and Russia and other countries. Sometimes I'll rescue mission fears and they get captains and back. I have people in North Korea who support me. When I talk to my sister who chose to not be in this life,

Starting point is 00:21:57 she forgot most of things. And for the other hand, I like to remember everything. So sometimes it's a blessing to keep reminded of how, because they say happiness is a relative thing. It is sometimes. I mean, I think it's also people say, because nobody was fooling you when you're going up, everybody was suffering, you should have been okay, right? But no, like if you are suffering in that degree, no matter even if there is no comparison, like if you were in that dormant, in a hollow course, right?

Starting point is 00:22:32 In the concentration camp, I'm sure nobody was better than them, I'm sure they were suffering. It's the same thing, I suffered. But now, because I'm in this place, I can't compare easily, right? Getting that perspective. But it is true, like I'm in this place, I can't compare easily, right? Getting that perspective. But it is true, I still have days that I cannot get out of bed.

Starting point is 00:22:50 And I really hope that it was Ilam Mos talking about downloading your brain blah blah. So if maybe technology develops, I can download some part of my memory and then I can erase it or it was deleted. And that would be so much better. This is a, sorry for the tough question, but if I came to you, if Elon came to you and said we can erase that part of your memory, would you do it?

Starting point is 00:23:19 Someday I would do it for sure. And my mom would do 100%. My sister would do it. Or. And my mom would do 100%. My sister would do it. Or other defectors know, they do 100%. For me, I would hesitate it because I'm a witness. So if I do live that part, I don't know how real that can be. But it is painful. Like after I talk, give a speech, I'm fine.

Starting point is 00:23:42 But somehow I'm depressed. Sometimes if the talk was very intense. I'm like depressed for three weeks It takes a while for me to be recharged, but I don't know why it is you know. Yeah, I just don't know Yeah, well, there's also the and there's a guy named Victor Franco who wrote a book Master's for meeting and there's some aspect who wrote the book, Mancer's for Meeting. And there's some aspect where he talks about the Holocaust and that you can, in those moments of suffering, still discover meaning, still discover happiness

Starting point is 00:24:12 in the simplest of joys. Like while starving, you know, a little piece of bread could be a source of incredible joy. And there's some aspect in which that experience gives you a clarity about the world, like somehow experiencing suffering allows you to deeply experience joy and love and also empathize with the suffering of others and like it's almost like brings you closer to other humans. So it's this double-edged sword that That the highest of joys Sometimes are catalyzed by suffering and it's hard to know what to do with that

Starting point is 00:24:58 You see that with World War two the stories of soldiers that have suffered, but some of the closest bonds Of brotherhood of just pure love was experienced by them. And it sucks that our brains are like this. Love requires hardship. I don't know why that is. Yeah, that's like that thing. Of course, in my journey, I learned how to survive, right? When to not trust and when to run. But I think most of I was keep learning what it means to be a human being. I think that was the ultimate thing I was keep learning. And I still don't know fully what it means. But I do think it seems like suffering is an accessory, so it's for people to be grateful

Starting point is 00:25:44 and even be joyful to sometimes. Yeah. So, I talk about love quite a bit. Yeah. And you mentioned that romantic love. I'm fascinated about love in many aspects. But you mentioned romantic love was forbidden in North Korea. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:26:02 What do you think about love? Now that you've kind of discovered it, what's the role of love in life? Why was it so why do you think it was forbidden in North Korea? So the tragic thing about North Korea is not only just banning Shakespeare. We don't even know what Romeo and Juliet is, right? Our movies are never about love stories. But then also they banned the love between mother and daughter, wife and husband. You know, and you're between your friends, they denied you being a human. So only love that I knew was when I described my feeling towards the leader and in the region form. That was the only love that people know in North Korea. And now I'm like, there are many loves you can experience.

Starting point is 00:26:51 I think you definitely love science, right? But imagine that if you're being denied that. So there are so many loves in life, but in North Korea, all of those things are denied. And I think for me, love makes you take love for your child, love for your parents, love for your friends, love for even yourself. That is denied. So, many people say love is an option, but then why do you live? I think we live to love. And it doesn't have to be a romantic love. It can be anything. But finding love in any person or in any subject, I think that's a goal.

Starting point is 00:27:32 I think that's when people find the meaning in something. Yeah, I think romantic love is just one sort of part of it. One echo of some core thing. Yeah, science, love science, love robots, all of those things. And it sounds like deliberately or not, the North Korean regime wants to channel that very deep aspect of the human spirit all towards the leader. Yeah, that's it. That's the only thing that allowed us to fear and know. So I remember, I mean, you read 1984 by George Orwell, it talks about double think and double speak, who controls language, who controls thoughts.

Starting point is 00:28:14 And while he does talk about as they go, they like eliminate a lot of words, right? Now, like later one word can represent ten different things. And like what fascinates me is how many vocabulary meaning people can have. And when I literally came out, I remember, when the San Francisco came to me and hugged me. And then he was like, oh, baby, don't worry, I'm gay.

Starting point is 00:28:40 I was like, what the heck is gay? I don't know, right? And I literally got a hotel and go to the gay. And I said, oh, that's why you meant. And like that, they deny what that is. I'm sure there are gay's in North Korea. I'm sure there is. But you don't know what it is.

Starting point is 00:28:58 And like that, they eliminate words. So the fact that you know the concept, that is a state is much better than, and that's the thing a lot of people like you when you're born, you somehow know what justice is, what liberty is, and it's awesome, but it taught you that. And like, that's the thing where people say, oh, humans are inherently know, what is right, what is wrong, what is oppression, and like, you know, that's like BS. You got to learn. That's fascinating that words give rise to ideas. So like as a child, one of the ways to learn about justice and freedom is to first learn the word and then to ask, well, what is it?

Starting point is 00:29:38 Yeah, the concepts. Yeah. And if you don't have the word for it, then you never have the kind of first spark that leads to you trying to be curious about it That's interesting and controlling the words and then yeah, I mean your thoughts I can you control the thoughts. Yeah, there's so many echoes I mean, I have it's it's a very different but perhaps a very similar experience, which is the journey of my family through the Soviet Union. Because there is a love of country, there is a pride of the people, like you are proud of your family in general. But I wonder how much of that is polluted by the propaganda. I think a lot for sure. I think a lot, for sure. It is here this day, I'm like my father who died in China and he was tortured and then

Starting point is 00:30:31 he died. He wanted to go back before his death, right? And then I was like, Daddy, if you go back, you're going to be executed. And I was like, I want to be executed. So you wanted to go back to North Korea? To be executed. So he can be buried in his own land. And then his last wish was, if I die, criminalize me, and then bring my ashes back to my country.

Starting point is 00:30:56 When I'm dead, I still want to be in my country. And this is a nationalism. This is a propaganda, right? But now, it's the same thing. It's the same thing. If I die, I somehow bear it in my land. And I still feel like I'm the outsider. I'm always longing for my home.

Starting point is 00:31:15 It's a heart of a home. Like people say, what's your dream? Do you want to be a president? Do you want to be a room for office? I just want to go home. That's my dream, right? And people here don't get it ever. I don't know what to do with that.

Starting point is 00:31:31 I love my country. And I think for me, my country is the United States. And perhaps it will be for you two one day. It is. I think it's becoming new. US has been a very special place in my heart. I think this is the first place I felt like I I feel like home and

Starting point is 00:31:49 I was in the South Carolina and I didn't feel that way, so I think there were very different life stories But I think it's almost two different people The for me is the person that was in the Soviet Union and the person that's here was a two different people the person that was in the Soviet Union and the person that's here was a two different people. That previous person's home in the Soviet Union and he's part of me. And I suppose in that same way, your first maybe two decades of life are somehow longing for the home that is North Korea. And your next two decades of life might be finding a home in the United States. Your dad, can you tell the story of his struggle, of his death? Do you think about my? Oh, oh my, like, all the time.

Starting point is 00:32:45 I had a son when I was 22, and I had IVF three times. And as you see, I'm like 80 pounds, but back then I was like 75 pounds. Because my master's of your mind is usually somehow my body is very different. And so after three times of IVF, I was 23, I was there wanting family. And the reason I wanted him is because I felt so guilty for my father that he never

Starting point is 00:33:14 seen this word. I somehow, when you're so desperate, you become illogical. I want you to believe in that I really can't, like Buddhist idea where you come back to life. And I pray, please come to me and I guess my son, so I will take care of you. I come back. And when I was pregnant with my son, even though I planted pregnant with a girl, Dr. made me sick, he became a boy. So I made his name, like my father's name, Jin-sik.

Starting point is 00:33:46 I think he's the only North American got North Korean name. I know. It is. So he's a part of your father's and your son? Yeah. That's how I make the sense of it. And that's how I move forward. If I, like as a logical human being, you know when you're dead, you're done.

Starting point is 00:34:09 Maybe that's what I at least used to think. But then life just becomes too unbearable. And somehow that's a thing, like, we take our service stories in order to live. And that's how I came with my title of the brain in order to live. I had to tell myself a lot of stories. To overcome a lot of stories to overcome a lot of things. I think I was the only part of it. Can you tell the story of you escaping North Korea to China?

Starting point is 00:34:37 Yeah, I think it's amazing. Even though I was like 13, my life outside North Korea is almost like went by like one second. And my life till that point was like eternity. I remember being in China, I arrived there at the end of March at 13 and by October it was six months past and I literally felt like I lived eternity and one day living in China felt like living one year. One day was a war like surviving through one day was so hard. Every now and then I was like I cannot believe I got done one day today. That was the thing I was grateful for.

Starting point is 00:35:27 Before I went to bed, okay, I survived, I didn't get captured, and I made you another day, on Earth. So the experience of the minutes is what? Fear? Fear of being captured? Fear, loss, everything. I saw my own mom in China to survive. So it was more than that. And it's not feeling. I think that's the thing. In China, I learned not to fear. And after my escape was a challenge, I didn't feel anything. And it was hard. Not feeling anything is a torture. It's the biggest torture you can ever feel.

Starting point is 00:36:14 Even your fear sadness, that's better than not feeling anything. And I felt something when I had my son. That's when I started healing. So he was a miracle to save me, but yeah, in China, it wasn't even fear. It was numb. You were numb. It was like paralysis. Yeah. Just overwhelming. The uncertainty of your future. Did you have a sense what your future held at the time? What even even future? I don't even know that word. Like, a lot of times I was looking at myself,

Starting point is 00:36:48 like I left my body and like just looking at me. And just not feeling anything. It's not like I'm scared of her. I'm like sad for her. Just looking at me like, oh, that's interesting. Wow. It's not feeling anything. And me, like being raped, going through every emotional life to survive, right?

Starting point is 00:37:08 But like, like somehow, I don't know if you say so or something, like looking at it, it's like, you feel nothing. You don't feel anything for that person. So even with your mom, what was was there some? I don't know some warmth that you were able to extract From the connection with your mom. Yeah, of course. I think that made me survive I had a very strong connection with my family and I think that's what kept me going to do all of that I think as you what kept me going to do all of that. I think, as you said, I escaped at 13.

Starting point is 00:37:47 My sister, at the age of 16, escaped with her friends first. And I was going to escape with her, but one day I got like really bad stomachache. And my parents took me to hospital. And in North Korean hospital, they don't have like three machines. They don't even have electricity. They're literally using one needle to inject everybody. And people don't die from cancer in North Korea. They die from infection and fever and hunger, right? It's most likely you're going to die more by being treated by doctors

Starting point is 00:38:17 than not being treated. I think I was lucky, even though they thought I had appendix. They operate on me without any painkiller, and I didn't get infection, I survived. So that's how I got delayed to escape with my sister, and she left me a note in my bedside saying, like, follow this lady, and this is like another trick about human trafficking, right? She sold me to China as a sexual slave. And she executed for a later. And she had a...

Starting point is 00:38:50 She was executed for that later. She had five daughters and she sold all her children to China. And we can now see it in your dressing on how hard it is you are selling your own children to China. And as a sexual slave, they were like her children were like seven, ten years old. But that was the only way for her to save her children. And if she didn't serve me, that they would be dead right now. So I'm grateful that she sold me.

Starting point is 00:39:18 And I think that's the thing. Life is so crazy. You cannot judge. It is so complex. And yeah, that's how she changed my life by selling me. She sold my mom and myself in 2007 to China. So you're grateful for that, you're grateful for that suffering? Of course, I am grateful. Because the alternative is worse. I would not be here with you. You never knew what I just said. What do you make of the other suffering in the world today? The people there in North

Starting point is 00:39:52 Korea. So that is part of your life's work, is helping those people. What do you think about them? What should people know about them? I think that's when I get angry. When I write think about them. Like, I know. Because you're angry directed at. At the hardestness of people, the ignorance of people. Like, so when I got out of North Korea, I'd gone through all of them. And I went to South Korea one day. I was watching television. And there's like a famous Korean K-pop stars

Starting point is 00:40:33 and crying and doing some fundraising concert. And I literally thought, I was like, oh my god, something is a huddley going wrong in this country. Why are there people crying? It was cherry like campaign. And then later it was showing that it was an animal-wise campaign to helping out cats and puppies in the charters.

Starting point is 00:40:56 Do you know anybody shares their tears like that? Do you not even being right now? I can't. People rather give millions of dollars to save some dolphins than saving these children right now, being raped in China. And I think I love Elon Musk. I love this world. I love these people.

Starting point is 00:41:15 Want to like go to moon Mars. And people told him, yeah, we went to the moon like I did not know in North Korea. But I think that's what upsets me. Like why there is not even one single human, with that kind of brilliance in their brain. They can't save so much suffering, but nobody does anything. I think that's the night. I feel like a heart-to-find-hoping humanity.

Starting point is 00:41:41 And that's when I guess it's all the same. Because think about, like, even Biden or Trump or Obama. They know what's happening in North Korea exactly, right? Even if we see satellite photos, there's public executions. I mean, the UN says this is the Holocaust happening again. And it's happening. If the Holocaust is happening again, how, why? How are you okay doing nothing about it?

Starting point is 00:42:08 But somehow humans are able to okay nothing, anything. And this is like, this is the heart. Like when people say, I'm gonna change the world, I wanna make a difference. Like, it's hard to believe it, you know? Yeah, that we can turn our back to human suffering at scale when it's right in front of us. I mean, that makes you think about the Holocaust. This is just everybody was looking the other way.

Starting point is 00:42:31 Yeah. Because it was almost too hard to look at it. No, it's not, it's an easier thing, like it doesn't think. I was like here to pick it the south by south with fears ago. And like, everybody's talking about like Elon Musk's project going to the moon, right? We're gonna be more like species. I was like, back then I even know who he was. So if you're just trying to go as to this earth,

Starting point is 00:42:55 you haven't even explored our earth yet. You cannot go to North Korea right now. You have an explored that part of our planet. Can we do that first? And they move on. Explore the landscape of human suffering, like a levied suffering in the world. There's a lot of suffering happening in Africa that has to do with disease. And for some reason, it's even though we turn our back to that kind of suffering too, we still can try to do something

Starting point is 00:43:25 about it. And there's still efforts in terms of healthcare, in terms of medicine, in terms of by-engineering, in terms of all these efforts to help people from disease. But that's almost converting it into an engineering problem and trying to solve it. That's somehow easier for us humans. But when there's obvious sort of non-dezees related torture of humans, we look the other way. Whether it's China or it's North Korea. I mean, that has to be changed somehow. We have to change that somehow. Is it the thing right now like they're China, like they bring the Xinjiang Wigures, right?

Starting point is 00:44:08 They say, oh, it's a vitamin take it, and then it kills their sperm, and they cannot reproduce. Their birth rate gone down something 47 to something 50% in the one year time. It's a genocide in 21st century. And they get those people and get their organs out. Imagine if there are some people who do that with the cutie puppies and cats. There's not be insane amount of product. They're going to destroy everything. And this is a human nature that I don't get. Why there's so much anti-human sentiment in this modern world. We don't have to.

Starting point is 00:44:45 The fact that I was saying, the fact that you care about animals, right, is beautiful, because you care about something who cannot speak for themselves. The fact that we care about animals is because they cannot speak for themselves, right? They don't have that ability. And there are many people who cannot speak for themselves right now. And why do you refuse to be the voice for them? Because they are simply being a human.

Starting point is 00:45:09 And maybe it connects to us, not being proud of who we are. Like maybe I don't know what it is, why do they deny humans this way? Maybe they don't like themselves. Yes, it's almost... We would have to acknowledge some dark things about ourselves in order to start helping. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:45:31 Um, what's the solution? So, you know, I see two solutions. One is in the military side. Yeah. It's assassination or the fall on invasion. And then on the activism side, which is figuring out ways to, like you said, sort of let people in North Korea understand their situation, sort of from within try to reform. Or maybe there's others obviously that could be activism from the outside to build up momentum for the entirety of the world, especially the world that it's not just the United

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Starting point is 00:47:11 There's no ideal, as you know, religion, nothing. People are peaceful, right? There's not a once civil, like any of these content among the people. All problem is there's a dictator funded by the second economic power in the world. And even any military they know if they kill Kim Jong-un, they're not going to get killed by Chinese. Nobody can dare to stand up against Kim Jong-un because of China's backing.

Starting point is 00:47:35 So somehow here in the West, we collectively acknowledge that China is the responsible person for this crimes against humanity in our square. Then we can somehow, I don't know, talk to those. Stand up to China. Exactly. We're failing to do that in a way, in all kinds of avenues of life, of public life, because for many reasons, they're probably primarily financial. they're probably primarily financial, but it also, I'm against, I don't know, maybe you can correct me, I'm against sort of making China this evil enemy because I've seen this with Russia as well and I don't think that leads to progress. I think you want to highlight, you basically want to help China, the Chinese people, become the best versions of themselves.

Starting point is 00:48:34 So speak to the Chinese people and not making the leaders of China into these caricatures of devils. I feel like the Cold War, the way it was done in Russia. I just for both sides, they were caricaturing each other through propaganda and the result was not productive at all. It did not help Russia become the best country it could be, did not help America become the best country it could be. And the same thing with China, I feel like making them into this enemy, like being afraid of China, being making them into the thing that's going to spy on us, that's going to destroy the rest of the world. That's not going to help China, like, reform themselves. They're going to plant their feet, the dictators, the evil people will become more evil.

Starting point is 00:49:21 The power hungry will become more, there was centralized the power more. It feels like maybe naive, but it feels like it should be like again, love, not violence that solves this thing. Now, of course, in North Korea, it's like long gone. 80 years. Almost 80 years. If you can't love is not going to solve that problem. Or I mean, I don't it's very difficult. They have tried that. Cause only sunshine policy, which is there's two people walking down the street and the sun and the wind made a battle. So who can take off that man take off jacket. So when tried blow as much air as he could and then the man was like putting more like his jacket on right not taking off but sunshine came up and came up and I

Starting point is 00:50:10 was going to give him a lot of warmth and then he took his jacket out and came out. So that was the area. Let's give North Square as much love as they want. Let's give them a lot of money whatever they want. Let's give to them. Do they know that we are not here to attack them? Yeah. And North Square what they did was the guy who did the Sunshan policy in South Korea named Kim Dae-Zoo on the Nobel Peace Prize for that. And Kim Jong-il used the money to build a nuclear weapons. So that's how they came with the nukes. So I think that's the thing.

Starting point is 00:50:41 Yeah. I hope they love service problems. But there's got to be a way and the hope is with the 21st centuries You can directly speak to the people somehow. Well, there's no internet when there's nothing like that It's hopeless. I think China there's a hope that the China is still connected to the internet. I love your optimism I have seen the actual dark side of China on the underground, I hope... I think that's a thing. People in the West, right? They say, oh, how can it be that bad? They asked me, like, I walking past this young teenager man, and later the world my sister.

Starting point is 00:51:19 He's like in the test and coming out through his back, right? And even in that moment moment what he wanted was, please give me food, he was hungry. His intestine is hanging out of his body, and he's asking for food. Oh, ask me for food. Do you know what he means at the moment he died in North Korea?

Starting point is 00:51:38 Or the one he's eating, right? Yeah. And people say, oh, nothing can be that bad. But people just here haven't nothing can be that bad. But people just hear it, haven't seen an actual true evil. Would you say that the evil comes from a tiny minority of people, or is it permeate much larger parts of the population? Like, if we look at sex trafficking, how many people, like is it 99.9% of the people are longing to do good in the world? Or is there, is it, or do we all have the capacity for evil in certain kind of environment,

Starting point is 00:52:20 certain kind of governmental structures inspire a large percent of the population to do bad things. I think humans are capable of anything. There is no exception. I don't think there is any saying to form a morality. I think in North Korea, you can say initially that there are few guys in the top wanting the power and then doing this. But eventually it made a society where people don't even know what compassion is. We don't know the concept of, we don't know that you need to feel bad for another human

Starting point is 00:52:54 being when they are suffering. The fact that you know compassion is in your knowledge. That's why you do that. Humans need to learn. It's not anything bad about human nature. It's just saying humans are capable of everything. We are the most adaptable species on the planet. That's why we created the internet,

Starting point is 00:53:13 talking this way, right? No other animals have done it because we are so adaptable. That is a good thing and that's a bad thing. So in that adaptor situation, they all can be, I mean during the Holocaust, right, those people, they could have been capable of good too if they were exposed to different systems. And that's why when people underestimate me evil, that's what scares me. Evil is evil.

Starting point is 00:53:38 It's a different thing. It's a completely different thing. And of course, I really gave you an idea. We don't want to isolate 1.3 billion human beings in on-earth-right Chinese. But the thing is, we are talking about this regime, not the people. I love Chinese people, I speak Chinese. I love all about that country. But this system does promote evil.

Starting point is 00:54:02 Well, that's an optimistic view actually because we can fix systems. Yeah. It's harder to fix people. So if we fix systems, then the people are adaptable. Absolutely. As you said, I mean that, and then the question is, first of all, you have to talk about it, just as you're doing. You're right now like this little flame that burns bright, and it's really important for North Korea.

Starting point is 00:54:24 But just keep talking about it until there's, until hopefully it leads to at the highest levels of power, revolutionizing the systems in the world. And then in China and in North Korea, do you see North Korea being a potential instigator of a nuclear war? They will not start a nuclear war, as long as they can do whatever they want right now. North Korea's army not designed to fight the enemy. They designed to prevent their own people to cuteta and revolution with their own citizens. That is 1.6 million North Korea with a tiny country,

Starting point is 00:55:07 the four largest armies in the world. So this country designed to fight with their own citizens. And the army, the fourth largest in the world, is designed to basically fight its own people. Or press their own people. That's what North Korea and military is about. Okay, let me ask you some aspects about North Korea life. Can you describe the song-bound system of a scribe status used in North Korea?

Starting point is 00:55:40 Yeah, so that's a very interesting thing, right? Right now, there are a lot of people playing with this ideology of like democratic socialism, socialism, communism, whatever you call Marxism, Leninism, right? They have all like this similar features where we give collective power to a certain entity. And they will make the decision for the bigger good, right? And North Korea came up with the idea, the Kim Il Sung, he was the Leninist, he was Marxist, saying,

Starting point is 00:56:09 I'm going to create the most equal society on human face. So it was a communist North Korea. And then they came up with this humbleness system, it's a family caste system. Three big categories, warrior, raving, and hostile. And that in between three classes, they divide into 50 different classes. So a lot of people don't even know which exact class you belong to. That's a sacred government document. And that's how they decide your future. So you know, very North Korea, before you're born, your life is determined

Starting point is 00:56:43 for you. And this is a more joke where they dreamed of creating the most equal society. They ended up with became most in equal society in the face of humanity. So there are 50 different classes and where the one guy on the top became a god. So when this animal farm, as we keep saying like this, so many older animals are equal and some of animals. equal and so on. More equal than others. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:57:07 But it's not only it's just more equal. One guy in North Korea became a god. So North Korea was born out of Marxist ideals. Yeah. From Stalin. Can you comment on Juche ideology, which seems to be its own kind of socialism, but with unique aspects here, it really does ideologically, says the importance of having a great leader. Is there some interesting similarities or differences that you can comment on between other implementations of communism throughout history?

Starting point is 00:57:48 The Soviet Union, China, elsewhere. So, to take the very unit, it came around the 90s after the Soviet Union collapsed. So, before that North Korea was very still loyal to the Marxism and Leninism, which is, they take care of you. We are going to give you the right education, health care, your livelihood, everybody going to be equal, you're going to have in the working collective form, collective work place. Everybody collectively do things together and let's work for the paradise. But, 1991, the Soviet Union collapsed. And until then, North Korea was heavily subsidized by Soviet Union's aid. And then the Soviet Union didn't give them anything.

Starting point is 00:58:29 So not three million people died on the streets. The regime then came up with idea, okay, our goal is, what is successful ruling for us is keeping the 10% of population alive, which is in the capital Pyongyang. So they designed the Hunger Games. There is a capital, 13 other districts. Everybody on the countryside on purpose being starved. So those people who are starving cannot thinking

Starting point is 00:58:55 about meaning of life, cannot thinking about shooting to the moon. They are not going to do anything. All they're going to think is like finding this meal. All on purpose. All on purpose is man-made famine. International community was begging to give North Korea food. Why not still that the UN, they beg to give North Korea formula, medicine and food. They are begging, can you please feed your people and give them food?

Starting point is 00:59:19 No, thank you. Last year, when North had a horrible hot of flooding, South Korean president begging, can I give you some medicines? Because he wants to be the one provider. He doesn't want people to think other people giving him the thing. On purpose, other people are starving. And the two ideas that's when he coming from. Until that communism was about status being a father figure,

Starting point is 00:59:43 takes care of all your needs, right? Give the power to us and you are all good. But North Korean regime said, okay, now we cannot give people's Russians, which means to take means, serve the lions. You need to take care of yourself while you're giving everybody to us.

Starting point is 00:59:59 So now, in the 90s, the regime told us, okay, we are not going to give you ration. You cannot trade, that's illegal, but you find your own way to survive. So be self-reliant. That's what to say. And, you know, but when you are God, you can do whatever you want. You don't need to make a sense. That's the difference being a God and being a leader.

Starting point is 01:00:21 And when it is religion, it's not forifiable, you cannot challenge it. God's way is suspicious. God works in the mysterious way. So when you are God, people are not gonna say, oh, this doesn't make sense, right? You're gonna, okay, whatever God says, as a human being, we can never change It's unbelievable what regimes can do. There's something about famine, you know, that is another level of evil to me. You know, what Stalin did in Ukraine in the 30s. Yeah. Fuck him. This is what torture is.

Starting point is 01:01:11 Cannibalism. And... North Korea too. They are humans. Right now. In 21st century, 7 billion people on this earth right now. You make enough for 10 billion people. Nobody should start right now.

Starting point is 01:01:28 As a worrisome to me, the humanity is moving forward with the technology, the advanced blah blah blah. We are going so fast in advancement. And we are living this like 25 million human beings in the cage, completely living them behind. And those humans are living like 16 centuries. I never like this morning I was taking shower, beautiful shower like one never knew what shower was. I was bathing few few times a year going to the like river

Starting point is 01:01:56 how they even know what shampoo is and this is how human beings in 21st century living and it doesn't bother us and rather most of people obsessed being a vegan. And like how do you reconcile this? I think we get used to stuff very quickly. We get used to comforts. That's just the way of human life. You take the beautiful things for granted.

Starting point is 01:02:20 So I try to appreciate everything I have. So whether it's like the food I have now, or like the luxury to have a diet, be struggling with that, or just the basic simple moments of being alive with the people I love. Or actually I get like, I think I'm on drugs all the time because I feel like just even like the smog,

Starting point is 01:02:39 everything on this table, it just brings me joy. But it's like filling your life with joy in the full capitalistic American way, you can still at the same time not feel too bad about yourself and still focus on the suffering in the world. And I think there's some way that in trying to build a better world in America, it has ripple effects elsewhere. So I'm a fan of rockets in space. It sounds, perhaps counterintuitive, but sending rockets to space will help solve the North Korea a problem because it lets people dream and build cool stuff. So it's not the rocket, it's the other people that like are inspired by the rocket and then look to other problems in the world. I mean that's what

Starting point is 01:03:40 Elon did is like he saw problems in the world and saw it like what can I do to help it? Right. And I think the North Korea one is a tough one now because that's ultimately has to do with revolutionizing government. We got a change in China. China. That's what it takes. Changing China's Communist Party is impossible.

Starting point is 01:04:02 That's why we couldn't solve North Korea for that many decades. For now, it's China, but it's China. So it's Russia. It's certain aspects of the United States and struggling with that. One of the, there's a bunch of technologies that are striving at this. For example, I don't know what you thought about cryptocurrencies. I love it. So there's an idea that money could be a way to destroy or to challenge the power centers

Starting point is 01:04:34 of the world. So if you take away the power from fiat currency and give it to this thing that can't be controlled by government, that's cryptocurrency, whether it's Bitcoin, if they are all those kinds of things, that's a way to get money into the hands of people to where the government can't take that money away. But North Koreans don't have electricity, no internet. So we can do that with China, we can do it a lot of African-Detergent countries, right?

Starting point is 01:05:02 I do think cryptocurrency is such a fascinating technology, right? I think this is an amazing experiment. When that power is in our hands, I'm the huge advocate believer. But I think Norse is too behind. You know, I think that's what is unique about Norse Korea is that most of things that we talk about is now a place different plan and literally to common knowledge that we have is now applicable. What about Kim Jong Un? Kim Jong Un, yeah. Is he intentionally evil or is he mindlessly propagating an evil system created by his ancestors?

Starting point is 01:05:43 What's your sense of the man? So with Kim your son, I can give him more benefit of that. He was a initial true believer of communism. But then as later he gained power, he realized, I think I can expect that he thought most of people are done. Right? Individuals are done. So therefore, I need to make the decision for all of you. That pure arrogance came from out of being. Even that I can tolerate. Okay, fine. And Kim

Starting point is 01:06:11 Jung-yer, who never like, yeah, fine, he grew up in that system too. But Kim Jung-un is very unique. This guy was educated in Switzerland in the heart of democracy. He knew how human beings should be treated. As a child, he went. When you are a child, your brain is very susceptible. Right, you change anybody. Like why the mind was so upset, like changing young people's minds.

Starting point is 01:06:39 Like that's every revolutionary they do, right? They go change young people's minds first. This guy was so upset with the power, him being a god, even starting in Switzerland didn't change him. And that's why I think that's a pure evil. You know, I can give him more benefit of that to his grandfather and father,

Starting point is 01:07:00 but when he comes Kim Jong-un, this is like what pure evil looks like, pure surface of being. That what pure evil looks like. Pure surface of being. Yeah. That's what it looks like. Is there some sense where he's justifying everything he's doing to himself? Or do you think there's a psychopathic aspect to where he enjoys the suffering? I think in his life, I read a lot of like North Korea, a lot of CIA documents, a lot of intelligence 저는 한국에 대한

Starting point is 01:07:33 김정은 한국에 대한 대체의 가을을 한 대체의 가을을 한 대체의

Starting point is 01:07:40 가을 한 대체의 가을 한 대체의 가을 한 대체의 가을 한 대체의 가을 한 them being a human, they're like equal to others. For them, we are just any kind of tool. Like that, not pulling it, like thing does, right? Anybody's a tool, like once

Starting point is 01:07:52 box or dies, get him slaughtered for my cause. And they do not even feel guilty about it, because they don't view us that you deserve your worthy of it. So it's not like he even fears, he doesn't even recognize that's a suffering. Like, of course, you, you, this is what you do serving me because I am, I am this. So I think that's like beyond that. It's not like suffering is enters his mind. He doesn't even think what we go through. You see, he thinks of himself as a, as a God. Yeah God and then everybody else is just tools that they're disposable. Right. There was rumors several times of him dying.

Starting point is 01:08:31 Yeah. Do you think he is obviously his health is not good? Do you think he will die soon? What happens if Kim Jong Un dies? Well, when he comes North Korea, anybody knows what Kim Jong Un does. It's lie, right? Nobody knows. I'm sure CIA knows, but they may never reveal that.

Starting point is 01:08:52 CIA has enough intelligence to counter where Kim Jong Un is. What is it doing? They just don't assassinate him because they don't see the means of it right now. You think they can assassinate him? They can't. They do have a bullet to give us. Why the hell do they not assassinate him. They can't. They do have a ability to give us that. Why the hell do they not assassinate him? Because they don't care. They don't care about the suffering of 25 million people.

Starting point is 01:09:12 They got to pay the price if they saw assassin Kim Jong-un. They got to pay the price after. There will be financial. There will be political price to pay. It will anger China. Yes, sir. That is a huge piece for them. And then they'll have to deal. obviously, there'll be financial military consequences of

Starting point is 01:09:28 having to deal with the turmoil, the uncertainties, the revolutions that will spring up. Yeah, that's the thing. Like, that's why they don't want to take that risk. They don't want to do anything. The US now became very passive when they pursued these moral values to the rest of the world. They did the same thing with moral values to the rest of the world. They did the same thing with the Holocaust in the early days actually. Yeah, they were like, they didn't care.

Starting point is 01:09:50 And that's what their always policy has been. They don't care. So if Kim Jong-un dies, it's going to be very hard for North Korea to replace anybody in his position because Kim is a brand. It's not just like a leader for us, right? Whenever we think of Kim, who came with my mind, like who's like almost God figure, the North Korea is the number 10 religions in the world. They copy the Bible. So if you believe that, if there are people believing the God and just Christ. How do you not believe the North Korean believe in the same thing?

Starting point is 01:10:25 So Kim Il Sung's grandfather and his parents were the Vah Christians. So Kim Il Sung was grew up, this like Christian like verses. So when he found in his country, he said, I love my people so much, that I'm giving you my son Kim Jong-il, His body dies, but his spirit is with us forever. Who can know how many here I have, what I think. And when we suffer, we go to Paradise with him. And when you block every single information going into country, of course, people are going to believe it. So who would be the successor if he dies?

Starting point is 01:11:01 He has a son, first son born in 2009, and not old enough if he dies now. So either his sister, my rule for a short amount of time, has not like a leader, but like temporary placement. And then when the son is older enough, he might take it off, because it's a kingdom. That's most likely, and China will do everything they can to maintain that status quo for the North Korean regime. So, North Korea people have no option here. We just needed some leader to courageously come up and do the right thing.

Starting point is 01:11:40 So, we can't just wait this out. No, we can't. It's not something that takes its course and it's going to change. Like, we not even know that economic freedom does not bring political freedom. We know in China, it doesn't. That's the unique thing about freedom. You got to fight for it. Otherwise, you don't never get it.

Starting point is 01:11:59 Freedom is something that has to be fought. And if nobody fighting for freedom, freedom is not going to be there. Can we talk a little bit about freedom? What does it mean to you? Having had, we talked about love in the same way about freedom, having sort of discovered it later in life. What does it mean to you? I think every day I get new definition of freedom. It is, it's a never-ending journey, having this relationship with being free. And what it means to be free, right? I think, I think you definitely can live life without being free.

Starting point is 01:12:42 And also happy life too. I saw a lot of North Korean elites who were fat and have power but didn't have freedom or have very happy. In a way happier than the people that I found in your war like investment bankers and consultants in Manhattan and 70% of them go like talk to their pissed. I was very confused. I remember writing my book in New York, like my editor was saying, you know, you're traumatized, you need to go talk to the therapist and say, what is therapy? What is trauma? Because in North Korea, they don't have word for stress or trauma because how can you be stressed in a socialist paradise? So they don't let you

Starting point is 01:13:23 be knowing what that is. Yes. So, and then they were like, yeah, hearing people having problems go talk to therapists and I was like, like how much is that, like, $200 per hour and it's discounted right too. So I can not thank you. You know, I was like, you know, and we know that freedom comes with responsibility. And in a way, it's not that easy to be free, thinking for yourself constantly. Like, when you, you know, way I understand, like, let's give government every power we have,

Starting point is 01:13:58 let them decide what education that I get, let them decide where I live, like, you know, let someone figure that out for me. And that's how North Korea began. Hoping the government gonna represent my own interest, believing that they were good. And without benefit of that, and good faith, you begin the nightmare, right? So freedom is not like a gateway to be happy at all. You know, where you can make life a lot more complex. But then it's fun, isn't it? You start happy at all. You know, where you can make life a lot more complex. But then it's fun, isn't it? You start being for yourself.

Starting point is 01:14:29 You start making mistakes. And it's so fun to be free, even though you can be suffering way more than the people who are not free. The thing about freedom is when you have freedom, you also have the responsibility for your actions. And that could be a huge burden. Yeah. You also have the responsibility for your actions and that could be a huge burden. Because if you succeed, it's you, but if you fail, it's you.

Starting point is 01:14:53 And if you do horrible things, it's you. If you don't do something, for example, if you don't help people in North Korea, it's you. And that's a huge burden. And living with that burden is a kind of suffering. I mean, there's some aspect in which freedom is suffering. It is suffering. Because life is suffering. And then the freedom is, you as an individual, fully living through that.

Starting point is 01:15:18 So you talk to your friends with Michael Malis. He believes, and so I want to kind of ask you about government. He believes he's an anarchist. And he believes kind of a freedom fully implemented in human societies, meaning that humans should all be free to choose how they, you know, transact with each other, how they live together. There shouldn't be a centralized force that tells you what to do. Do you think there's some role for government in a healthy society? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:15:59 So if you look at North Korea, there's the most horrible implementation of government. But then if we look at what the United States strives to be, at least in principle, there's an ideal of a government that represents the people and helps the people. Is there a place for that kind of ideal or is government always going to get us to trouble? I am not, I mean, I spoke to my grandmother, I kept asking why he's anarchist, right? And he doesn't believe in military, none of that. And I was like, I was like, I don't think I want to be in that world.

Starting point is 01:16:35 You're describing it when that's pretty scary. I want the law enforcement. I want like, I don't... In a way that... So, why equality makes no sense is that, to factor in you and I were born, we were born in a very different capability of thinking, different intelligence, different capability in our physics, right? So equality is nonsense, you can never achieve that, right? So to me, that's when it's very scary in that. Right. So to me, that's been very scary in the government

Starting point is 01:17:06 trust to me. Equality on everybody. That's impossible. That's specifically equality of outcomes. So like, so given that we all start different places in force, like measure in some kind of way where people stand. And if they're an equal enforce equality. Yeah. And that's what leads to the kind of things that you mentioned with the class system in North Korea. Yeah. So I think that's why government can be bad.

Starting point is 01:17:33 They can be very dumb. And another thing is that they cannot know what you want. A lot of times people don't even know what they want in the visual. Like how the heck do you assume government can know what is best for you? Nobody knows. We just all do our best.

Starting point is 01:17:49 I do think those some governments are getting sweet so and, have more power to the different state. Can we? I think I'm more in a given power to the state. And let individuals decide where they wanna go in within states. I mean, why did you choose Texas? Right?

Starting point is 01:18:08 There's no income tax, right? Like, there's a lot of things people find Texas, like, you know, charming and they come here. So, in a way that I don't want to be in a one strong government, makes every single thing the same way. In a way, I want to kind of experiment everything. We can have anarchy state. There's no police, nothing going on.

Starting point is 01:18:30 You can be who, whatever one you want. And you can go on a stay, really it's like abortion is bad, blah, blah, this is bad, all the conservative values. And let the ideas compete and let them how they are being pregnant in real life. But I think it's very scary when the youth government is getting bigger and bigger and then they try to make every state under one big government and that's like when I get really alarmed. Are there things that you see in

Starting point is 01:18:59 the United States in the current culture that kind of has echoes of the same things you saw in North Korea that worry you that much. Absolutely. It's in America, the meritocracy doesn't matter. It's evil. The wise men's idea of like talking about if you are competent enough, they say, oh, if you're coming from which right family, you are going to be competent.

Starting point is 01:19:27 So other people don't have a chance, but look at Asians who came from nothing as competent and go to like Harvard Law School and Medical School. So it doesn't almost say, it's like there's no incentive for you to work hard anymore in the system right now. That is North Korea.

Starting point is 01:19:43 There's no incentive because you're born with your class already. So no matter what you do, you can never. So the hot of the thing about North Korean system is that there's nothing holding Mary up. So if you're coming from other cultures that like make a market join the lawyer family and she became a lawyer, you go up by North Korea. If someone from high class and they marry somebody down, you only go down with them. That's how they prevent classmates. Right. That kind of enforces the separation because there's a huge disincentives to Google or to marry, to integrate between classes. What do you do about this kind of, you know, especially universities, but in companies,

Starting point is 01:20:29 thinking about starting a company, so I'm looking at this very carefully, there's these ideas of diversity and meritocracy, that's attention. So I think there's a big way in which diversity broadly defined is not at all in attention with meritocracy. So having a variety of people, backgrounds, way of thinking, all those kinds of things is a huge benefit to any group. But the way diversity is often defined is by sort of very crude classes of people. Whether it's by skin color or gender or some very kind of large group way. And that actually does two things in my mind. One, it drowns out real diversity or not real, but the full spectrum of diversity, which is like within class diversity of like,

Starting point is 01:21:28 are you somebody who is, are you somebody who's exceptionally good at mathematics? Are you somebody who's exceptionally good at psychology? Are you good with people? Are you good with numbers, all that kind of stuff? That I think spans, or intersects in fascinating ways with these kinds of groups. So that's diversity.

Starting point is 01:21:49 And then meritocracy is this thing that probably the reason I wanted to move to Silicon Valley and the reason I didn't is like having a fire to change the world within you. Like meritocracy is like, I want to be the best in the world at this and it will strive and work hard not stepping on others but like purely within yourself be the best version of yourself that that idea is in some ways being not celebrated or demonized? It literally made meritocracy is being demonized by nine America. Working hard is a symbol of you coming from some established family.

Starting point is 01:22:32 The fact that you celebrate a accomplishment, hard work is a sign of your patriotic or whatever thing they call right. And they want to abolish that. They want to like stop giving kids grades. That's what they already doing right. They want to start, they want to like we should abolish like SAT in America they take to go to college right. They won't even abolish that. Yeah, some kids have no ability to do math. So why do we have to force them to learn math and that's

Starting point is 01:23:03 what comes with humans overcome challenges. That's what makes us special. But then like because this kid's coming from this family, let's find the reason why they cannot and then they don't have to do that thing. But they still deserve the same job. They need to be a lawyer and doctors. And that's like what in North Korea, I was like not, there was not even a meritocracy beginning with right? Did you born in the same family, the family, the blood, right? Like if one person does something wrong, it's like collective guilt. Because I spoke out, the regeneration of my family got punished, what left behind.

Starting point is 01:23:40 And then in America, I see the same thing. Like if you somehow somehow great, great grandfather on the slave, now you are privileged and you are guilty, because you are white and cute, but how do you change your ancestor? How did you have a saying on it? And that is where there's no way out, there's no forgiving, there's no moving forward. And this current culture in America now, like I remember a Columbia like before class, everybody had to go round of saying,

Starting point is 01:24:11 tell us what your plan is. And my English, my third language, I learned as an adult, even saying, he and she, I'm confused. My parents are pure mistake. And they say, comedy day, because I'm gender fluid. Basically, I can be a girl. But next hour, you talk to me, I'm a boy, right? Yeah. And if you don't do it right, they like, look at you, why are you big at?

Starting point is 01:24:33 Right? It makes me so nervous. And this is where I come to, this is a regression of civilization. We are regression as a humanity here. Like the enlightenment, all of those things made us so much brighter and looking forward and now we are going backwards. Well, I think there's a pendulum aspect to it because it's my hope in terms of backwards.

Starting point is 01:24:56 So a pendulum goes backwards too, but it just goes back and forth, I think. And then in the long arc of history we're making progress. I think all of the discussions of diversity and inclusion and all those kinds of things, I always thought that they're healthy in moderation, right? There should be a small part of the conversation amongst other things. The natural aspect, it seems that they kind of

Starting point is 01:25:22 have this way of just consuming all conversations It's like the meetings like diversity and inclusion meetings multiply somehow or it's like the only thing that you're talking about It's very kind of absurd in a way look at even at MIT It's it's a strangely disproportionate amount of discussions about that and Also to me as an engineer among the discussions about that. And also to me as an engineer, those discussions are very frustrating because they don't seem to actually do anything. So like, they want to bully people

Starting point is 01:25:55 instead of creating systems that fix, define like definitive problems. And that in itself, that kind of bullying, that's the same kind of thing you saw in terms of McCarthyism in America it gets the communist you certainly saw that in Soviet Union against everybody who's not communist it's it creates hate not progress when you talk to Jordan Peterson recently and people should listen to that conversation it was was a fascinating one. I think he almost got emotional on the discussion about universities and your experience with Columbia

Starting point is 01:26:35 because he, like myself, for perhaps different reasons, have a hope for our academic institutions. Some of the most incredible people, some of the most incredible engineering and idea development innovation happens in universities. And so we both deeply care about them. Is there something, so the reason he got emotional, the reason he was kind of hurt is the fact that you were not,

Starting point is 01:27:07 deeply inspired by your experience. I didn't deeply. It made me dumber, it made me scared, it made me terrified that I had to censor myself in America. Like, I used to say telling me that you don't ever censor yourself. And when you talk to you, can you truly say what you want about race, about anything? Gender, we all sense ourselves. Let's be honest, right?

Starting point is 01:27:32 We are all doing that. And that's what I learned. Like, I thought I was coming to a country where never needed to say it. Like, first thing my mom told me, growing up in North Korea was, don't even whisper because the birds and mice could hear you. And I thought, okay, now America is truly the land of the free home of the brave, you can say anything you want, and then you have freedom to change your mind and evolve.

Starting point is 01:28:00 But the people now demand you to be the perfect version they demand you to be. You cannot change your mind. And then what is the meaning of demand you to be the perfect version they demand you to be. You cannot change your mind. And then what is the meaning of life you cannot grow? Well, you should be safe to talk about anything and then later, okay, I was wrong. The knife you do that you got like, get penalized for it. I mean, censorship is a funny thing because you probably should not say dumb things.

Starting point is 01:28:22 You should try to say things you want to say in the most eloquent, the most effective way you can. So I mean, that's what editing is, right? Yeah. So there's some level of like being careful with what you say, not because you're afraid of some overarching kind of group of bullies, but you want to be the best version of yourself when you express stuff. But there's some sense where in the university setting, you can put that self-sensorship level down more and say stupid stuff and play because you should be forgiven for that kind of play, especially when you discuss the difficult aspects of human history, whether that include racism, that include atrocities. I'm still nevertheless

Starting point is 01:29:08 sort of hopeful, but at the same time, I'm surrounded by engineers. So I don't get to interact with people in humanities much. And it seems like there's getting worse. It's a good thing. I don't know. Well, I do sort of interact with psychologists, but they haven't touched on those kinds of topics yet. I still sort of in defense of psychology, I still wish I had more numbers. But I still feel like most psychology people don't partake in this kind of stuff either. They're just doing excellent research. We're just highlighting, this is what America does well. You're kind of highlighting anecdotal experiences and making a big deal out of them. But that's good because like it's a slippery slope.

Starting point is 01:30:01 If those things start to overtake all of academia, it starts becoming a big problem, even in an engineering field. So we should be concerned. But it is truly tragic that somebody who's exception well read like you, who's a fire was stoked first with Orwell, that fire should burn bright. Like this should not be, you should be writing many books. You know what I mean? And you'll be, you talk to Jordan, it's very possible depending on what you want to do with your life.

Starting point is 01:30:31 You'll be a future Jordan Peterson. So that and Columbia should be a place that enriches that your mind. And the fact that it did in this tragic. I mean, I was there four years. It wasn't like I had one class that was bad in a one semester. That was a thing, and Dr. Pee was asking, is there any one class that had no sentiment of this virtue signatory in polychery white?

Starting point is 01:31:00 Yeah. There was none. Yeah. Entire course. I think I took 126 credits total. Not even one class. It doesn't matter we were talking about classic art. And there's a thing.

Starting point is 01:31:15 I literally thought, okay, I pushed the last semester to call the art a music. So I thought it's going to be the least politically correct class I can take. And then it begins with who has problem with calling this course the Western civilization music of art and music. And it was raising their hands. Because why do we have to learn about this better than Mozart the Bigots? And all the people, you know, everything ruined by the way men. And even music, even these paintings.

Starting point is 01:31:47 And as I didn't raise my hand, everyone's looking at me. How do you not have the problem with us? Like, you should hate us, you're Asian. So I think the problems with deeper than what people think. And that's what I learned. It's not that safe in America. We can go complete to the South. And looking at even Europe, that is like, I usually remain more optimistic, like, you know, that, but now I actually see, wow, this country can go to

Starting point is 01:32:20 South. And we might, if the US force that, right, this is the only country left to battle with the Communist Party in China. We might lose the opportunity to be free ever again as a humanity. Wow. So I mean, that puts a lot of value on having these kinds of conversations. It is, I mean, I'm troubled, I'm troubled by a lot of things, but like censorship on YouTube, for example, yeah, it was very annoying to have to listen to Donald Trump all the time, like just like create drama, like news cycle was completely drawn down by Donald Trump. But like banning him from Twitter, it was like,

Starting point is 01:33:00 that was scary for me because it's like that's a step towards a direction where you're going to, like where does that take us? You're going to silence people then it's like Jordan Peterson is next. That's why we need to promote freedom of thinking and speech, right? And the one thing that I love about Dr. Peters is, human is his psychologist, right? Talks about, we think by talking. That's why when you go to therapy, you talk, and then you hear yourself, and then you think,

Starting point is 01:33:35 and you come up to the answer. It's so important for humans to talk, so we can't think. So when they say, you cannot talk, means you cannot think. And they don't know the consequences of that. And this is why I promote, I want freedom of speech. Even though it hurts, ridiculous, sometimes it can be dangerous. But the price, the alternative is so bad that we should take the,

Starting point is 01:34:03 you know, make this trade-off, everything is a trade-off in this world. And it comes with a sacrifice, right? So I think that's what I've been seeing in America, but it's unfortunately like the people like you say, who decides what is hate speech, what is dangerous, that's what I've been getting scared. Because everybody is imperfect. How do we want to give the power to them? And they're going to decide, today they might agree to me. Say, OK, your speech is good, promote good. And then they might come back next year.

Starting point is 01:34:34 Say, your speech is bad. What are you going to do when that happens to you? We have to almost get ideas out and then play with them. I think what's a really important component of that is forgiving each other for like realizing the more different person day by day and certainly years later. And I think some of that is both cultural mechanisms of saying like we forgive each other for wrong ideas or not wrong ideas, but for who we are, the full evolution of the human being, for the steps we've taken on that evolution, and also creating mechanisms that allow

Starting point is 01:35:13 you to allow us to forgive each other. For example, on a Twitter, it's like horrible with this, because one of the main viral ways that people create drama on Twitter is like pulling up an old tweet that somebody said, right? And then saying, oh, this is the guy that thinks that. And but that's like the opposite of the mechanisms we need to forgive ourselves, forgive each other for the things we've said in the past. And so part of that is the cultural part of this is the technological mechanisms. You mentioned Jordan Peterson, you had a great conversation with him. What was chatting with him like, I'm just curious because he's deeply passionate, especially

Starting point is 01:36:01 on the Soviet Union side, about the atrocities of these kinds of systems. What was it like? What did you agree with him on? What did you disagree? Or some things you both kind of learned from each other through that conversation, do you think? So here, some mice are the Jordan periods, not me, very long one. So one day, I was walking down in Chicago, and they were like huge deer or soda. He said big, little Jordan Peterson soda. And then he was huge deer in the middle of Chicago. But it doesn't like comedian,

Starting point is 01:36:37 like who can be selling this entire thing at 7 p.m. And then with my ex husband, we were walking the street and then we saw people were selling the tickets and for a very higher price. And then we went to take it and he was like, yeah sure, we ran in. It's packed. And then I was just a headkip earth, but I wasn't able to understand it English that much. My English was served with that. And you didn't know who he was really?

Starting point is 01:37:09 No, no. He was just curious. Yeah, it was a 2008. Who's the guy that sells out of Stainey? No, a theater, yeah. Yes, I saw Dave Rubin came up before him and make jokes. I still don't know who Dave Rubin is. Afterwards, I met them all.

Starting point is 01:37:22 But back then, I had no clue what that is. And then he was giving lessons. But what I got from that night was not what Jordan said, but what people did on the audience. These people, like, I don't know thousands of people in this big theater crying like babies. And that's what I was like, whatever that guy is doing is very special, right?

Starting point is 01:37:45 He was like making a joke. He had no slides. Just a one simple person standing in the huge egg and theater talk. And no time to am people cry. And I was like, wow, okay, whatever that is, I gotta check it out. And then I got home and then later many years later, I got a book. And I was serving his book and it talks about expense so much right now at Columbia

Starting point is 01:38:11 learn like everything gender is like made of concept construct like the hierarchy is my men's idea make the hierarchy and then he begins with the number one the the last serves had had a higher case, evolution of history, that is reading us, we want a higher key, right? And then chapter five about socialization of child, you know, how do you raise them? And all of it, and then what's why telling the truth is matters, right?

Starting point is 01:38:40 And there's a white, like, and it's entire 12 lessons I read it, and I was like, I was so grateful that I'm alive. And there was people always say, if socrates alive, how much you should pay Teblan to them? That's quite something, right? So for me, I was like, okay, I'm alive in the same contemporary world, one of the greatest thinkers of my entire generation. And then, how much money... How much money would I pay for?

Starting point is 01:39:10 No, not limit amount. And I reached out to Michaela on her pockets on Twitter and connected. And one day she said, do you want to go on my father's pockets? I was like, what? I was like, of course. And I was like, what? I was like, of course. And I was very nervous, but I didn't expect him to be that connected. Because I thought he was like college students. He saw so much suffering in the world.

Starting point is 01:39:39 He thought he was suffering and he's always collecting those things to remind him of the suffering of human being. So sometimes some people hear so much atrocity, they become very not engaged. Because this is the sense time. He felt, he was living through the experiences with you as you were talking about it. It was an amazing conversation. So Jordan is one of the great thinkers of our time, but I would say the greatest thinkers of our time is Michael Malis.

Starting point is 01:40:07 So you've also got to talk to him. So he wrote a book on North Korea. Yeah. It's an interesting style book. I learned a lot from it. I learned a lot from Michael about it. And it's interesting that he chose North Korea as a thing to study.

Starting point is 01:40:25 He evolved people, this fascinating human being that is Michael chose this darkest of aspects of humanity to study. What do you think of Michael? What do you think of his book on North Korea called Dear Reader, the people should definitely check out. Absolutely. So back then when I reached out, my

Starting point is 01:40:47 go through mutual friends out of Korea, my English was good. So I got a copy in my hand. I tried to read and a lot of them I didn't understand. So but I thought it was very fascinating how he explained North Korea through the deal leaders perspective. Right? As nobody has ever done that. You can reveal so much about the state and absurdity of the entire situation. And also through humor. And that's what's amazing about Micros is he knows full gravity of tragedy.

Starting point is 01:41:22 He knows full suffering. He's not just like people here in America and the BuzzFeed making fun of Kim Jong-un's haircut. They don't care what people go through, microcares, and people. Deeply cares. And then he still does ridiculous jokes. So that kind of reveals in a dark way the absurdity of evil. Yeah. And he does that masterfully. Do you? He's a genius. He is definitely a genius. If you watch this, you know, let's make his head too big here. But is there some aspect to I mean, there is an absurdity to the whole thing.

Starting point is 01:42:03 Kim Jong-un is this, I mean,un is almost like a caricature of evil. Like, a joke. A lot of people think it's a joke. They just think this is too absurd. They just laugh. Can you imagine you laugh at Holocaust? This is that ridiculous. Can you maybe psychoanalyze that a little bit?

Starting point is 01:42:24 Because that's where my mind goes, too. Like, he's so ridiculous. Can you maybe psychoanalyze that a little bit because that's where my mind goes too. Like he's so ridiculous that you can't, it's almost like hard to believe this is real. Is that just my kind of and people's desire to escape the cruelty of reality by just kind of making a joke out of it. I think it is a few things, right? Like, so North Korea as a nation, number one or number two smartest IQ people in the world, despite their management. So, there's, I mean, that's an interesting point. So, in your sense, the people are not done. Still carry the brilliance. There's a culture there that's hungry to become realized.

Starting point is 01:43:21 Like the people that are silenced by the electricity, by the actually having no food all those kinds of things Like if you add the electricity if you add the food you're going to have a cultural center of the world like South Korea That's what they exactly did right the exact same Korea won't become world like 11th largest economy Won't became the worst most like Polish nation, right? And this is the perfect example, like if I don't know if you read that book, why nation affairs, the system, it's not about a culture, it is not about people, it is not about IQ. What makes us to different is a system. South Korea, North Korea is a perfect example of that. One is exact same capability. We were homogeneous like country, same language, tradition, all of that.

Starting point is 01:44:10 We gave them different systems. One is free democracy, one is dictatorship, and came up with the biggest different resort. And I think North Korea reveals that to us. It's not because we are great that we are living in this prosperity. Free market. The idea is gave us to this. The system we built, our ancestors built, gave us this privilege. It's not us.

Starting point is 01:44:36 Nothing is about us being special here, right? The system that we have is quite special. And North Korea proves that to us. It doesn't matter even if you're smart. It's all irrelevant. And I think that's why people just keep denying that they want to feel special. Like, because I'm awesome, I got a lot of this.

Starting point is 01:44:57 Like, no, it's not you you got this. And when people say, like, I hate capitalism, I was like, without capitalism, how do you come up with this thing? I mean, literally. How did you come up with this? The systems matter. Matter. And they matter way more than this individualistic society would like to imagine.

Starting point is 01:45:23 It is the most important thing you can have in life, choosing your right system. Do you have advice for young people today? You've lived an incredible life and you have, I hope, an incredible life ahead of you. What advice would you give to young people today? High schoolers, college students, how to be successful in their career, maybe successful in life? Last thing I want them to fear is guilty. It doesn't do anything, right? So I hate when people talk about a white guilt. It's like that doesn't make even any sense, right?

Starting point is 01:46:07 I think the fact that they born with freedom is a blessing for all of us. It's not like I want them to want to do something because they are guilty. I want them to do something because they are grateful. It is true like we are sitting here, the fact that while I have children, it's suffering, having kids you don't sleep, costly, like so much work, like any logical rational mind, you should never want children, right? Why would you do that to yourself? As a woman, right?

Starting point is 01:46:40 You don't want to do that to yourself. But think about, like we are sitting here today, to us in this amazing technology to this country. Because somebody in seven, a hundred thousand years ago, they're hunting berries and surviving cold, every suffering they can imagine. They fall for us. That's what we ended up here.

Starting point is 01:47:01 So life is ultimately bigger than us. And I think that's what I want them. I it's not like I want them to do the right thing and be the best person on them's serves. It's like I want them to feel grateful and we should be grateful. For the freedom and take full advantage of that. I mean, it starts with the freedom

Starting point is 01:47:22 to experience everything in life. And for your life, literally. Like life. If you have my father, you know, working, dying is a lot easier than living. Dying takes like few minutes, right? Maximum. And living takes forever. So when I was facing this unbelievable challenge, I thought,

Starting point is 01:47:44 okay, this most rational thing I can do, killing myself right now. But the hardest thing I can choose to live, and my father did that. Even in the concentration camp, even no matter what he said, life is a gift. You need to fight for it. And I think that's what's missing here, that we don't think life as a gift. It's a gift. Like, how many people had a fight for me to be here today? Think about the sacrifice they made for many, many, many generations.

Starting point is 01:48:15 I don't even know what they went through. I can't even fathom what they went through. They fought for life. Yeah, and that is my responsibility enough. So it doesn't make them therefore fire was not meaningless, right? It meant something because now I'm carrying on that fight. You mentioned considering suicide. Do you think about your mortality now? Now that you're perhaps in slightly more comfortable place, you still think about death?

Starting point is 01:48:49 I do because I was informed actually in 2021 that I was on the killing list of Kim Jong-un in the South Korean intelligence. And then I had to leave you that, right? But now I actually feel more because I don't know if you follow John Mark Husher's story, the Saudi journalist. I got chopped off in Turkey and this, right? His reason why he got killed was he became very prominent on Twitter. He had a huge voice and Saudis followed him. Now I became very 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 그는 이 시 when he got killed in Malaysian airport. He was meeting up with the CIA agent for two days on the Northern Ireland. CIA could have protected him. They didn't, they let him die.

Starting point is 01:50:11 And... Can't kill them. North Korean Kim Jong Un cared them. Do you know the Malaysian, the leader ladies, the VX, the nerve agent? Mm-hmm. North Koreans cared them. In Malaysian airport, in the international land.

Starting point is 01:50:24 So, Jammal Khaushiki, who was a US resident, and the Washington Post journalists, when he got cared in Saudi like a lamb, they chopped him into pieces. In that most inhuman death, what was the consequence for the Saudis? Nothing. The word is, we think we're living in justice, country, no, there's no justice. There is no accountability for killing any decent, 그는 우리가 And in the interview when I spoke out, I don't know if you went through it. They did everything they could to characterically assassinate me saying, I'm a liar, I'm a CIA spy, I get paid. And then they reached out to Penguin saying, we're going to blow up. You cannot write this book.

Starting point is 01:51:16 And they did it with the Sony. They had the Sony studio for making that stupid movie interview, right? And then Penguin did their investigation. They met every survivor that I went through in the desert. They got the voice recording of them because they don't want them to change their mind later, right? People remember differently. So they got the voice recording. It's like, the Penguin recording got the old audience. And now we are ready for the lawsuit. We're going to publish this book because we checked the verified every single thing that was going into the book.

Starting point is 01:51:43 because we checked the verified every single thing that was going into book. And North Korea couldn't do anything anymore. But that's character assassination. But then, by the way, that's a whole nother conversation that you were able to survive that I appreciate the kind of strength it requires to survive that because you don't know. And your character being assassinated is in some ways can be as painful as actual assassination. It's worse. It's worse. Everybody think you're a liar. Yeah. is in some ways can be as painful as actual assassination. It's worse. So everybody thinks you're a liar.

Starting point is 01:52:08 Like everybody thinks you're a liar. And now everybody like you said the nature of internet is that as long as something is written internet, they think that's a fact. Any stupid person can start a blog and write about you. But they think, oh, because it's written on internet is a legit. Especially negative stuff. That's the thing I was kind of

Starting point is 01:52:27 trying to elaborate on. There's a viral aspect to calling somebody a fraud or a liar that nobody questions whether it's true or not, it's just spreads. It's a dark side of our human nature that we want to destroy. side of our human nature that we want to destroy the people who are rising. We can understand it. Yeah. Yeah. We, any change maker in the sword who wasn't controversial, I marked you to King Junior like Narsimhandela.

Starting point is 01:52:53 He was called as a terrorist, right? So I just did not know. I. So the character assassination is the thing, you know, probably continue with you. It will continue with you forever You were a continued thing forever. So you have to get stronger and stronger, I think, in the face of that. But actual assassination, perhaps it's me being hopeful because I have a situation with Russia that I hope I'm not under. Well, I don't care actually.

Starting point is 01:53:19 But there's some aspect in which social media, presence, I thought protects you a little bit, because just imagine the outrage from an attempted assassination, an assassination of you. But what was outrage when German Koshki got killed like that? Was the social media presence large? Over one million people, I don't have that following. He was 1.6 million to their followers.

Starting point is 01:53:46 And the outreach wasn't there? No. Because Saudi spoke to Amazon, the prime studio, Netflix. There were people made a documentary about it, but to everybody, they cannot get that deal. So there was a huge censorship on that. And people, of course, like, I mean, they can talk about it one day.

Starting point is 01:54:04 Some distance from Saudi that cared. Yeah. Horrible. It just dissipates. So they, they move on the next coup, puppy, right? The next coup cat, like that's what the nature of this new generation does. They desensitize. It doesn't affect them. They keep following those instant pleasure, instant high. That's what Instagram does to you. It changes your brain,

Starting point is 01:54:25 like that's why I was reading this book, the shallows. We became shallow and shallow, and our brain changed permanently. So, this is in the generation, we can get them angry for like 10 minutes, create hashtags for one day, but then as quick as that was, it goes down like instantly. And I think that's the... That was, it goes down like instantly. And I think that's the... Well, that means that, okay, so that means that there is, it's an effective way to get rid of opposition is by murdering them.

Starting point is 01:54:53 And that means a United States, if it stands for freedom, if it stands for the freedom of exchange of ideas should be protecting people like you. But they don't, because they don't want to be involved. They didn't even protect Kim Jong-un who was giving information 10 years, which is in his life. That's what it's so, I mean, working for CI is not bad. I'm not, I don't, I hope, I mean, the thing is, he was giving information to bring down

Starting point is 01:55:21 the vision. That is valuable. That is something novel about him. But then you don't go extra miles to that. That's when I lost my faith in the US system as well. This country just cares about saving face. What is most minimum cost they pay for anything. And I would not have South Korea constantly, every single day intelligence calling me.

Starting point is 01:55:45 You're like the North Korean agent going this place, where are you going? The US says, can you use nobody? There's some people that I see, I say, Asian, I wish they called me. I wish they called me, I really truly do. But nobody, nobody does here. I'm sure they know what's going on.

Starting point is 01:56:03 But the South Korean agent is more like, oh my gosh We don't want you to get killed in a South Korean citizen, right? Yeah, and now I'm trying to become a citizen So it's in a way it's I don't know what's worse. Are you are you afraid for your life? I was afraid for the several Three four years. I was afraid and it was, but I had a came terms with it. Like in my enemy, it's not some crazy psychopath. It's a state with a nuclear power to attack the most powerful country. If Kim Jong-un decides if I die, I'm gonna die. It's not up to me, right? So you know why also

Starting point is 01:56:42 liberating? That you, it's exactly if you are afraid of some mobs or some like gangsters on the street. It's almost like you have power over a little bit, you gotta be like thinking that's my fault. I went that way, right? But when it comes to Kim Jong-un, I know like my enemy is so much bigger than me. It's in a way that's a liberation. And also it and it makes so much bigger than me. It's in a way that liberation. And also it is, I live a lot. So I have seen a lot. I've seen everything.

Starting point is 01:57:10 I don't have that much you grow up here. Like, okay, I'm going to soon. It's like, okay, maybe it's time. Like, death is a part of life. So. In some sense, you're willing to accept death to keep fighting for freedom in your, in at least in part, a place you call home.

Starting point is 01:57:29 Yeah, that is. Do you hope that one day you can return to North Korea? I hope so. I hope I bring my son and Tarim, this is like where your ancestors from too. It would look very different than the place you came from in your, as you hope, do you hope that there's a democracy one day that North Korea looks like South Korea? Well, that will be in paradise, right? But I'm a rational optimist. I'm not just optimist because I have to be.

Starting point is 01:58:09 I think as long as there are people who have changed the world, right? Like who believed in something and worked for it. And like I don't know, like there's a like Alice Shiro, I see people holding entire this world, right? I really believe in that. I think, as long as that continues, that can happen in my country. As long as people like you someday, when they decide to do something or what North Korean is working for, using your brain power to solve this puzzle,

Starting point is 01:58:37 how fast and with that bit. That's why I continue to speak. Continue to recruit. To inspire millions to do something. The books you like are all the books I love. So I have to mention, as you mentioned, briefly on the, with Jordan, Sadartha by Herman Hesse is an incredible book.

Starting point is 01:59:00 I mean, I don't know exactly what I want to ask here, but there's some, I think the book kind of through telling a story reveals that life is suffering and yet there's beauty in it. The beauty in every moment that uses a river, paint a metaphor. Is there something that you could say speak to like how that book impacted your life and the way you live life, maybe the way you see life, whether it's on the life of suffering side or that life is beautiful side? I mean, he goes through entire journey, right? He goes in the state like, I'm so enlightened that I cannot deal with the people they are in love and quiet about it.

Starting point is 01:59:47 They are like that so primitive. Once he has his own son, he actually being attached. He actually cares. He actually really does whole thing. That's the thing that he used to think not. Once his son comes finding, he looks at life differently. I think that's the thing. I did have that kind of journey where, or nothing matters, right? So bitter, so so like, so cynical. And after I met so many incredible people, I was talking about that person who told me he was gay. He told me, I love you. And I was like, why do you love me? In the past people when they wanted me, it was because they want to rape me. Everybody wanted something from me. That's why they wanted me.

Starting point is 02:00:36 And I never understood you can love somebody unconditionally. And this gay guy, the last one was who want to sleep with me, right? And he loves me. And I think I had a blessing after my journey meeting people who loved me unconditionally, because I was just being a human. And I think that's what it is now for me that like him, I live for love now, I live for love, any kinds of love. Love for knowledge, I like, I read so many books because I love books, right? I love what I do.

Starting point is 02:01:08 I love my people. I love humanity. Even it's sometimes unknowingly me. I love myself. And that's beautiful too. The annoying parts are beautiful too. What do you, let me ask the ridiculous question. What do you think is the meaning of this whole thing?

Starting point is 02:01:22 Of what's the meaning of life? What do you think is the meaning of this whole thing? What's the meaning of life? Well, I think at this point I stop question, what I'm here? Like it doesn't matter if someone put the atom there or a big bang, I'm here, that's truth. I'm going to accept that fully. So what, instead of me keep asking the impossible question, what I'm here, I'm going to let you do that.

Starting point is 02:01:44 I'm going to let you do that. You have guys go out in the space and look for the evidence. I'm content. You accept that you're here and you're just going to enjoy, like you're here for love, as you said. That's the thing. I think I'm here for the process of pursuing something bigger than me. Process of doing something. It me. Process of doing something, it's not like you're more, it's not like purchasing or anything. It just makes me happy that I fight for something bigger, like that me.

Starting point is 02:02:14 Right? How boring is it? Every day you get up, oh my god, I'm going to fight myself with this, I'm going to get this for myself. It's so boring, isn't it? So in a way, I think that's what it is. I'm grateful that I'm in a state. I don't have to fly for myself anymore.

Starting point is 02:02:31 But more than if you perhaps do that, and that's sometimes more than enough they have to do. And I salute them, they are doing, fighting, saving themselves every day. But now I'm not there, I'm very blessed. That's why I'm very grateful. So fighting for something much bigger than you, but you still believe that you can change the world, that you can be a thing that at least in part helps North Korea or even broader helps alleviate some suffering in the world.

Starting point is 02:03:03 So that's the thing. I was reading this book for the By-Randomness, right? Yeah. I was like, you're up here like, Oh my god, you're so courageous, you're amazing, you're like, No, I'm not, I'm horrible. I know myself, you don't want to tell me that.

Starting point is 02:03:19 It's random, why I end up here. Like why did I pick up English so quickly? Why did I love books? I don't know why yeah, it's random Don't ask why just enjoy it. Yeah, it's this random. I think I don't know how the history will remember me I think Only thing I have to at this point to make sure is like the people after I'm consulting a lot of security teams like Nanos Korea became a lot smarter like you, they make more disguised as a suicide.

Starting point is 02:03:48 And I call accent. So when I die, they don't even know I got cared. I think that's a higher chance. So I think that's a thing like, people are suffering. Take it on that is your choice. And at least it's my responsibility for them to know what's going on. I think if you did not know and didn't do anything, you are not even guilty about things. But once you know, then you are not doing it, then you sound like not right. So that's what I'm doing. I want

Starting point is 02:04:17 no people to know. And then what they want to do is not my problem afterwards, right? So my role is very small in that regard. And I just hope that we're humanized North Koreans for the first time, because we have been so dehumanized. We are looking like robots. If you look at us marching and cry like we do later dies, almost seems like we don't even have the same emotions. People cannot connect us in the same level.

Starting point is 02:04:51 And I think that's something media have done to us. And you're shining a small light. I'm this dark part of the world that I think. And you make it your so modest, but I think, I think you will have that little light, just might be a big thing that changes that incredible amount of suffering that's happening on that part of the world. You know what I mean? You're, you're an amazing person. I'm so fortunate I get a chance to talk with you.

Starting point is 02:05:28 I can't wait for you doing the future. I hope you write many more books. I do hope you continue making videos, continue having conversations. You're an inspiration to me and millions of others I really appreciate you talking with me today. I'm so honored. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this conversation with you talking with me today. I'm sorry. Thank you. Thank you.

Starting point is 02:05:45 Thank you for listening to this conversation with you on me, Park. And thank you to Bel Campo, Gallagames, BetterHelp, and 8th Sleep. Check them out in the description to support this podcast. And now, let me leave you some words from Bob Marley. Better to die fighting for freedom and be a prisoner all the days of your life. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time. Thank you.

Lex Fridman Podcast - #196 – Yeonmi Park: North Korea

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