Lex Fridman Podcast - #270 – David Wolpe: Judaism

Starting point is 00:00:00 The following is a conversation by David Wulpy, someone who I have been a fan of for many years, for the kindness and his heart, the strength of his character, and the kind of friends he keeps and talks with, many of whom disagree with him, but love him nevertheless, including the late Christopher Hitchens. I will have many conversations like these in the future about religion, about Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and others, looking to understand and celebrate the culture, the tradition, and the beauty of the people who practice these religions. I will of course not shy away from the difficult topics. I will talk both about hate and love, about war and peace. This conversation was recorded more than three weeks ago.

Starting point is 00:00:50 Please allow me this time to speak on what has been on my mind. If this is not interesting to you, please skip. I totally understand. Some people ask me to say a few words on the war in Ukraine. I think my words are worth a little. But perhaps, let me try. I consider doing a long solo episode on this war. I tried several times, but it is too personal for now.

Starting point is 00:01:18 To give you context, I've been talking to refugees, friends, loved ones in Ukraine, in Russia, in Poland, Slovakia, Moldova, Romania, even UK, Germany, Canada, India, China, and of course the United States. Some of them crying or angry or confused or scared. I'm helping as best as I can privately, and I'm hoping to help in the future by traveling to Ukraine and Russia and celebrating the humanity and the beauty of the people in this region. This was all set up both for Ukraine and Russia trips before 2022, including conversations with scientists, artists, athletes, leaders, and just, quote, regular folks who are equally, if

Starting point is 00:02:08 not more fascinating to me. For now, it has become much more difficult, but I'll keep trying to find a way. I was born in the Soviet Union, my roots are both Ukrainian and Russian, and today, and until the day I die, I'm an American. I'm proud of all of this. I hope to keep celebrating the culture and the incredible human beings that make up these nations and humanity as a whole. We're all one people.

Starting point is 00:02:37 We're in this together. That's how I feel about the people of these nations. Now, let me speak about those in the seats of power. I condemn all actions of leaders who played geopolitical games on the world stage disregarding the cost paid in human suffering on the scale of millions. For this reason, I condemn Vladimir Putin's invasion

Starting point is 00:03:02 of Ukraine. And I condemn many Putin's invasion of Ukraine. And I condemn many of the military interventions by the superpowers of the world, including by my country, the country I love, the United States. That after World War II has intervened in over 40 nations, with many studies finding that the United States is culpable for an unfathomable number of civilian deaths. I condemn all heads of state who needlessly wage wars, watching young men and women burn in the fires they started. I don't understand how humans can be so cruel to each other, or rather I understand, but I believe in a future world where this is no longer true.

Starting point is 00:03:48 Let me also say a few words of what I hope to do with this podcast. I want to explore the full complexity and beauty of human nature. I believe each of us are capable of good and evil, and I want to understand how the mind and the circumstance lead one to choose the former path or the latter. And I believe conversation is one of the best ways to work toward this understanding. For that, I think I have to not only talk to the most inspiring humans in the world, but also to the most controversial. I will speak with many people who I disagree with. Politicians, activists, CEOs, heads of state with very different opinions on the world.

Starting point is 00:04:31 I will try hard to challenge their ideas without closing my mind to the depth and complexity of their perspective and their humanity. My presence in the same room with wildly different people will make it easy for the media and the internet to pick and choose clips and snapshots attacking me for being a shill for one side or the other. I can't defend this point except to say that I'm a shill for no one and that I hope you see the strength of my integrity that I won't be influenced by any of them no matter how rich, powerful or charismatic they are.

Starting point is 00:05:08 Like the poem if by Roger Kipling says, if you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue or walk with kings, or lose the common touch, if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you, if all men count with you, but none too much. This is a really, really important thing to me that I try to live by, that all human beings count with me the same. People have criticized me for wanting to have some of these conversations, like with Vladimir Putin and Vladimir Zelensky. And for times in the past, speaking about them without the seriousness the topic deserves.

Starting point is 00:05:45 For this, I would sincerely like to apologize. I'm disappointed, even ashamed, of my frequent in-neiliquence on these topics. I will work hard to do better. When I'm joking, it should be clear that it's a joke. And, hopefully, actually funny. When I'm being serious, I should speak with care and rigor. I've now done many hundreds of hours of podcast conversation. Despite my frequent failures and speaking, I hope you know where my heart is.

Starting point is 00:06:15 Unfortunately, I think people will take clips of me and use them to attack me. This will happen more and more. I guess there's nothing I can do but send them my love, and the meantime, try to be a better person and a better interviewer. Let me also say that I like humor, especially dark humor. I like being silly and not taking myself seriously. I will keep taking risks with that, all with the goal of having fun and celebrating humanity at its most absurd and most

Starting point is 00:06:45 beautiful. I will occasionally dress up in strange and weird outfits to celebrate the absurdity of life. I will hang out, break bread and joke with all kinds of people. I don't have to agree with them to laugh with them in order to escape for brief moment the tension, the conflict, the hatred in the world. Humor just might save this little chaotic little civilization of ours. I love the Ukrainian people. I love the Russian people. And of course, I love my fellow Americans, Californians and Midwesterners, New Yorkers and Texans. I love humans.

Starting point is 00:07:23 I love life. And I want to share that love with others, with you. If I mess it up, I'm really, really sorry. I'm trying my best. I have no gender and no one telling me what to do. I feel like the luckiest guy in the world to have all these opportunities, and I'm deeply grateful to be alive and to share that joy with other amazing people around me. Thank you for your support. For all the love you sent my way, I will work my ass off to not disappoint you. I love you all. And now a quick few second mention of each sponsor. Check them out in the description. It's the best way to support this podcast. First is Mizzin and Main, maker of my favorite performance dress shirts.

Starting point is 00:08:07 Second is Linode, Linux Virtual Machines. Third is Simply Safe, the home security company I use. Fourth is Inside Tracker. The service I use to track my biological data and fifth is 8th sleep, a self-cooling mattress cover I sleep on. So the choice is style, Linux, safety, health, or sleep. Choose wise on my friends. And now onto the full ad reads. As always, there's no lads in the middle. I try to make these interesting up to you to decide whether I actually succeed. But if

Starting point is 00:08:38 you skip them, please still check out the sponsors. I enjoy their stuff genuinely I do. Maybe you will as well. This show is bought to you by Misen and Maine, the maker of comfortable, stylish, dress shirts, and other menswear. I wear their black dress shirt and I love it. Obviously they have a lot of fancy, sexy looking dress shirts that are not something I can pull off or it's too flashy too too much sex appeal in those shirts. I like the cool minimalist

Starting point is 00:09:18 style just of black dress shirts. Anyway, their think combines comfort and flexibility of athletic wear. This is true with a fit and style of a custom dress shirt. Anyway, their think combines comfort and flexibility of athletic wear. This is true with a fit and style of a custom dress shirt. Also true. It's lightweight, breathable and moisture wicking. I don't know what moisture working is, but I'll take it. They feel great in whatever weather. I guess is what they're trying to say. Right now, if you go to MizNamaine.com and use promo code Lux, you'll receive 35 bucks off any regular price order of $125 and more. So go to This episode is also brought to you by Linode Linux Virtual Machines. Why am I sweating when I mention that? I must be excited.

Starting point is 00:10:02 I do really, really love Linux. I mean, it doesn't matter the flavor when it just launches up. I know I'm going to be doing some fun things when I see Linux booting up. Anyway, Linux is an awesome computer infrastructure that lets you develop to deploy and scale what applications you build faster and easier. This is both for small personal projects

Starting point is 00:10:23 and huge, huge systems. Lower cost than AWS, but more important to me is the simplicity quality of customer service with real 24, 7, 365. This is actually really true. So the interface is really important, how you set everything up. But ultimately, it's nice to talk to a human. So this is 100% what I look for. Even this bite would have made it look like this by being an introvert. It is sometimes

Starting point is 00:10:51 nice to talk to a human. If it runs on Linux, it runs on Linux. Visit linode.com slash Lex and click on the create free account button to get started with $100 in free credit. This show is also brought to you by SimplySafe, a home security company designed to be simple and effective. It takes 30 minutes to set up. You can customize the system for your needs at simplysafe.com slash flex. I have it set up in my place and I love it.

Starting point is 00:11:19 It was super simple. Yeah, super easy to use. It's the, I guess it would say it's the first layer of protection into my home. I basically have like a home alone situation going on here that there's like layers upon layers, including digital security. I take my security very seriously, but it's nice to have on the sort of the outside, the cameras and all that kind of stuff, to just have a reliable, easy to set up, easy to use security systems. So simply save is by far the butt.

Starting point is 00:11:51 If you look on the internet, the internet agrees. Anyway, go to simplysave.com slash Lex to customize your system and claim your free indoor security camera, plus 20% off with interactive monitoring. Again, that's simple safe.com slash Lex. This show is brought to you by Inside Tracker, a service I use to track biological data. They have a bunch of plans, most of which include blood tests

Starting point is 00:12:15 to give you a lot of information that you can then make decisions based on the algorithms that analyze your blood data, DNA data, and fitness tracker data to provide you with a clear picture of what's going on inside you, and offer you science-backed recommendations for positive diet and lifestyle changes. I've said this before, I'll say it again, I love this idea, it feels like the future.

Starting point is 00:12:37 I said that I love an idea with the monotone voice of somebody that has never loved anything. I understand this. This is how I talk. Maybe I'm saving all my energy for the actual love and not the expression of love. I don't know. We are who we are.

Starting point is 00:12:57 We have to accept that at some point. Anyway, it does feel like lifestyle decisions and basically any health or medical decisions should be based on data that comes from your body. That's why I think this is the future. Go to insidetracker.com slash Lex. For a limited time, you get 20% off the entire store. That's insidetracker.com slash Lex. This episode is also brought to you by A sleep and it's pod pro mattress.

Starting point is 00:13:26 It controls temperature with an app, it's packed with sensors and can cool down to as low as 55 degrees and each side of the bed separately one of my favorite things in this world. When I have been working for several hours I'm exhausted and I return to the bed and for power nap, like 20 minutes. Sometimes I actually drink coffee before the power nap. Somehow I don't know what the magic voodoo of that is, but you actually do sleep well in that power nap, but you come out energized. I think somebody told me to try that one day and I didn't it worked really well, but I also just go for the power nap and just feel like the world is a new, like I'm a

Starting point is 00:14:08 child reborn into the world ready to take on all of this challenges. If I want to really maximize the enjoyability of the nap versus the sort of pure function of the nap, then I'll go with thesleep mattress with its pot pro cover. Eight-sleep currently ships within the United States of America, Canada, and the United Kingdom. That's asleep.com slash Lex. This is the Lex Friedman podcast, and here is my conversation with David Wolpy. will be. Let's start with a big question. According to Judaism, who is God? It's difficult because Judaism, like any tradition that is thousands of years old and

Starting point is 00:15:08 encompasses so many different lands and languages and thinkers, it doesn't give a single answer to even simple questions and to large questions, it certainly doesn't give a single answer. Although Judaism was responsible for introducing the monotheistic idea to the world. It doesn't mean that it's one idea. So if you take my monodies, the greatest sage in the Jewish tradition, medieval philosopher, he would say that God is an omnipotent, benevolent, intangible, unimaginable God. In fact, he said you can't say what God is, only what God is not, because you have to emphasize, could talk more about that, but basically you have to emphasize the unknowability of God.

Starting point is 00:15:52 You have a modern philosopher like Heschel, who says that God is a God of pathos, a God of deep feeling, which probably would make my monodies shiver if he heard such a description. And if you look in the Bible, God is always regretting or having human emotions. So there are so many different kinds of depictions and ideas. And there is this tremendous tension between transcendence and imminence. That is, in the Jewish tradition, God is exquisitely close, God is imminent. In the Talmud's words, God is as close as your mouth is to your ear. In other words, whatever you say, God hears it. And yet, at the same time, God is unfathomably distant.

Starting point is 00:16:36 Sometimes when I speak to high schoolers, I will say, in the Jewish tradition, think of it this way. When you were two years old, you had no idea what it was to be a 15-year-old. Not only did you not know, but you didn't know what you didn't know. We conceive of God as being more, the distance between God and human beings is far greater than this is between a two-year-old

Starting point is 00:16:59 and a 15-year-old. So when we speak about God, we have to acknowledge how limited we really are. So okay, you laid out a lot of fascinating things on the table. So one, the nobility of God, then this idea of deep feeling, which again can God be operating the space of feelings to, so not just the mouth and the ear of the senses, can God be known? Can God be felt by this three-year-old in the analogy versus the teenager? So I will take refuge in a beautiful phrase by from Martin Boober, another Jewish theologian.

Starting point is 00:17:40 He said, God cannot be expressed. God can only be addressed. In other words, you can speak to God. You can feel a sense of God, but can you begin to comprehend or know God? No. You're safe, Cosby. I'm pulling in a couple of early Jewish philosophers. He said, to know God, I would have to be God. But can we get close? Is it useful or is it a distraction to visualize things, to embody,

Starting point is 00:18:09 to create, to attach to the stories, some kind of visualizations in our mind? For example, gender, he versus she, things like this, or old man in the sky kind of feeling. So it's almost inevitable, but I think ultimately you try to transcend it. This was the great, you know, we just read this actually in synagogue, the story of the Golden Calf, and the story is that human beings found it impossible to not have a visualization, because they had just come from Egypt and in the world of pagan worship, everything, is it's not that pagan's thought that idol was actually God, but it represented visually

Starting point is 00:18:54 what God was, and along comes this idea that God is actually not capable of being visualized, which is very difficult and it stretches the bounds of human comprehension, maybe even breaks them. So would you say the proper way to operate as a human in relation to God is humility and that you're screwed, you're not able to basically know anything, almost anything. know anything, almost anything. Well, the reason that you're the salvation of this is that you can't that you can't, I was going to say the reason you're not screwed, but then I thought somebody might be upset at a rabbi saying that. So I didn't say it and have not said it. But the reason you're

Starting point is 00:19:41 not is that you don't have to have a comprehension of God. You have to have a relationship to God. And those are not the same. I mean, to draw an analogy that is not far from perfect as most analogies are, but this one especially, you have relationships with people who are mysteries to you. You're a mystery to yourself. You can live and love somebody for 50 years and they can say something that surprises you

Starting point is 00:20:08 because ultimately we are trapped in here. And when a child first says I, we call that individuation, but what that really means is, I now know that I am cut off from the minds of all other children and all other people. And so you have with God a more intimate relationship because you can believe that God is... you are known by God and you have a relationship to God despite the fact that you can't know God just as you can't know others.

Starting point is 00:20:44 And someone would say to have a good relationship, you want to be constantly surprised. Right. Yes. Well, the world, yes. The world that God created is constantly surprising. And by the way, the caveat to this, you know, when I had all these debates with Christopher Hitchens, and he would always say that God is a greater tyrant than North Korea because it continues after your death.

Starting point is 00:21:04 And the idea of being known by God is after all frightening if you think God knows what I think and so on. If your image of God is unloving. Can we jump to this? You had friendships and conversations with a lot of the fascinating figures of the past 20, 30 years of the great intellectuals, one of which, perhaps one of the greats is Christopher Hitchens. What have you learned from your conversation, your friendship?

Starting point is 00:21:33 So there are a lot of views he held that I really did not agree with, but he was a remarkable person. That was a good line about North Korea. He was full of incredibly good lines. Well one of the things I learned was you can't win a debate with Chris Ridge. Oh, yeah. One of the reasons you can't win is because he has this British baritone and this ready wit that because you can't, you, you can't triumph over laughter. It doesn't matter if your argument is better, if your quip is better, you win. And so I remember once

Starting point is 00:22:02 we were arguing about free will and he said, well, I choose to believe in it. And everybody laughed and that was, yeah, despite the fact that that's not really an argument. Or like, I have free will because I don't have a choice. Right. Exactly. And people should watch your conversation with him. It's great. I mean, it's a kind of David versus Goliath situation situation and you're quite masterful at using charisma and sweet talking concerns. I also genuinely liked him. I mean, I spent a three hour limousine ride with him from one debate to another, from LA to San Diego, and the entire time he said, we just can't talk about religion.

Starting point is 00:22:44 So we talked about literature and he gave me a long lecture about Scotch. He was inexhaustible. I mean, not only did he, I began, I wrote a couple of obituaries about him and one I began with the historian Keith Thomas said there are two ways of achieving immortality by doing things worth remembering or saying things worth remembering and by that standard he did both

Starting point is 00:23:09 I mean he went all around the world to all sorts of danger zones He knew like the best bars everywhere from koala lump or you know to be rude to LA and he could drink all night and Write a 2,000 word essay on the poetry of Yates and go to sleep. I remember before one of our debates in Boston, he was at the bar and he said, come have a drink and I said, I'm going to have a drink before I go to debate with you. What are you crazy? And he said, just have a beer, it's water. So he really was a constant, inexhaustible fountain of, of, of intrigue and interest. Well, kind of things, if you can remember, if you can mention, if you can admit, uh, to have him enlightening you or helping you change your mind about something in this world. So I think, um, unrelated to Scototch. Yeah, unrelated to scotch.

Starting point is 00:24:06 He convinced me that the idea, I mean, I had my doubts about it and have my doubts about it, but he convinced me through many debates, and not only he, that the idea that religion makes people better is not, it's not, it's so a factor of wrong, but it's a much, much more complicated argument than I wished it to be. So he is, however you can see of the term beauty, he's one of the more beautiful humans, this weird little earth produced. So how do you explain the atheism combined with such a beautiful mind? So from your perspective of a man of faith, how do you think about that? So of the atheists that I have debated,

Starting point is 00:25:03 of the atheists that I have debated. I think about all of them somewhat differently. So I think that in some deep way, for example, Sam Harris is a religious personality. I don't even think that he wouldn't like the word religious, but I don't even think that he would take issue with that. I think that he would say his is a purely material based spirituality, but I mean his orientation towards meditation and appreciation of Buddhism, there's something deeply seeking spiritual

Starting point is 00:25:33 about him. With Hitchens, I honestly, and I know that some of his fans will really not like this, it's not that he was any kind of closet believer, not certainly not at all. But I almost feel as though he was less a passionate argument against religion than he was, first of all, extremely upset by the forms that religion took in this world. And then once he trained his intellectual howitzers

Starting point is 00:26:03 on a target, he had so much fun inventing new arguments and attacking it that I really believe he gets carried away sometimes by his own eloquence and intellectual range. So for example, the idea that you would call a book that religion poisons everything. I think he did that deliberately, provocatively, so that he could defend a proposition that obviously is indefensible, that it poisons everything. So, I don't know. I think he had tremendous jua de vieux. That's really what that's what sums him up. This guy loved life and all of its

Starting point is 00:26:43 manifestations. And arguing against something that someone else believed was one of his greatest joys. Yeah, and of course the practical aspect of that, he just saw the powerful and he challenged them with humor. Absolutely. And you know, you could argue perhaps that humor is the highest form of a humanity can achieve. Like sometimes maybe us little humans take things

Starting point is 00:27:06 a little too seriously, and sometimes we need to just laugh at it all, laugh at ourselves, and that's probably the purest formal wisdom. You know, Auden, the poet said, among the people that I like or admire, I can find no common quality, but among those I love, I can, all of them make me laugh. There you have it.

Starting point is 00:27:24 Speaking of people that make you laugh, Sam Harris, because he's actually has a really great sense of humor, with a very cold and monotone delivery. He's another one that you had your friends with, you have good conversations with. Where's your fundamental disagreements and agreements with Sam? Sam believes that religion is intellectually indefensible. He really believes it like deep in his soul. And he gets angry at the idea

Starting point is 00:27:57 that a proposition should be unchallenged if it offends his sense of logic. So he cannot move on until this is dealt. be unchallenged if it offends his sense of logic. So he cannot move on until this is done. In fact, I mean, he, you know, I did a podcast with Eric Weinstein and then Sam did one and Sam said, when I heard your podcast with David Wolpy, I learned stuff about what he thinks

Starting point is 00:28:20 that I never learned in my conversations with him because I can never let him make those unfounded assertions without challenging them and you just let them go. And I think that there was something too that was like, he finds it hard to have a conversation about religion that doesn't arouse his real eye about the harm that he thinks religion does in the world. So it's more about the implementation of religion in the world as it is

Starting point is 00:28:47 versus the really fundamental... I think he also thinks it's fundamentally intellectually shoddy and disreputable. Faith, yeah. Faith. I don't know how to put this. I mean, they're both capable of separating their contempt for religion from the people that they have sitting in front of them.

Starting point is 00:29:06 You mean Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris? Yes, both of them. Okay, so let me you mention Eric Wonson and people should listen to your conversation with Eric as a fascinating one is great. It's a non-standard, it just goes all over the place in this humor and what it is great. So one interesting aspect that I also learned, perhaps not about you, but about Eric, about both, but Eric has a similar thing as with Jordan Peterson, which is, if you ask him, do they believe in God? I think the answer, they're not comfortable answering that question, or they might say no, but they're usually just not comfortable answering that question. But there's a kind of sense that they would like to live life a religious life as if God exists.

Starting point is 00:29:53 I think that's exactly right. I think, first of all, Eric has a really deep appreciation of the Jewish tradition. I don't know, Peterson, I've read his stuff and I've reviewed his stuff and so on. But I think that Jungians are in their very approach. They believe that myth is the way the world works. And so it's not that big a leap to God, but it's still, there's still a distance there. Is it possible to have your cake and eat it too? Is it possible to have the depth of eat it too? Is it possible to have the depth of Religious life without believing in God like how do you make sense of Eric Weinstein's

Starting point is 00:30:34 Devout life within the tradition. I mean, I honestly think he believes in God But doesn't believe in God and it's oscillating like it's a quantum mechanical system of some sort believe in God and it's oscillating like it's a quantum mechanical system of some sort. Shrouder goes God. So I think that he would probably agree with what Eloise El said that that a Jew can can be angry at God or be disbelieving of God but is not allowed to be indifferent to God. And I think Eric's not indifferent to God. And it's different than Christianity. I've had this conversation many times because you can be very Jewish and have deep doubts about theological questions because Judaism isn't a religion. It's a religious family. And so you're born Jewish. Like if I said to

Starting point is 00:31:23 you tomorrow, if I was Christian, and I said, oh, I believe in Jesus today, and then tomorrow I didn't. I'm not Christian anymore, but if tomorrow I said, oh, I don't believe all this stuff, I'm still Jewish. So it's a more complicated system. Having said that though, I think it's very hard to sustain over generations without some belief that the source of it

Starting point is 00:31:47 is beyond ourselves. And in that sense, as in many others, Eric is unique. Well, he was actually making that claim that we need faith to propagate this tradition through the generations. So without that, the traditions crumble. It's a very interesting idea and a very interesting argument for devout faith, which is it's a thing, it's a glue that holds a tradition together, otherwise like traditions fall apart. So you can't have the intensity of that tradition. I mean, on the other hand, you do see tradition. I mean, Thanksgiving, one of my favorites.

Starting point is 00:32:27 So I would say traditions that are demanding full part, traditions that require Turkey might not fall apart, but traditions that make demands of you that are counter-cultural or are hard, they fall apart. I think I need to introduce you to some Thanksgiving dinners that are quite demanding, getting the family together. First of all, I'm a vegetarian, so I'm tough to have at Thanksgiving dinner, but there's a comedian and a Kathy Lansman, who one year I heard this on the radio and

Starting point is 00:32:58 it stuck with me, she said that holidays are a chance to renew your resentments of fresh. That's basically what people do with their families. It's like, I'm going to go home and fight with the uncle again this year. I apologize to take a dark turn, but you mentioned Ellie Wazell. I recently saw a picture of Ellie Wazell when he was in the camp, when he was liberated. For some reason that hit hard. Like, you know, I've seen pictures in concentration camps of people I don't know

Starting point is 00:33:33 or whose words I haven't really felt and gone through. But for some reason, like here's just a normal person, like a normal body laying there. That was him. I've seen it. And you see, you can see his face, but at the same time, you see that this is an amazement. And I think what's so disturbing about it

Starting point is 00:33:56 is exactly what you were saying is I've seen a thousand people like this. And I know this one, and I know what he became. So what about all those other people who look exactly like him who didn't make it out of the camp? You know, maybe it's projection, but it seemed like this perhaps is also just combining with math, um, search for meaning. It seemed like it was a regular day for them, right? The picture. It didn't seem like, I mean, I'm not sure what I expect to see what suffering looks like, but it's almost,

Starting point is 00:34:31 like, there's no celebration. I've never seen a picture of actually liberation be celebratory. It's true. It's really true. So what do you make sense, and I apologize, to take a step into that moment in history? How does, how do you make sense of the Holocaust

Starting point is 00:34:50 of Nazi Germany that such things could be committed by human beings to each other? Is it the thirst for power? Is it the madness of crowds somehow carrying us forward? I mean, for me, it's multi-causal. I don't think there's one reason. So one of the things, especially there, has to do with the special nature of anti-Semitism, which is let's put that to one side for the moment. The second is, I think human beings are fundamentally split. They are mostly good, except when put under certain pressures. My first explanation for hatred is as follows. Go to a playground. What happens when a new kid comes on the playground? Do the other kids say, oh, let's go share our toys with the new kid? No. They say, oh,

Starting point is 00:35:42 who's that stranger? And let's go get them. Because otherness is built into our genetic, I mean, we're tribal by nature. And we see people form tribes all the time of different kinds. I asked you before, if you were a chess player. And when I was a kid and playing in tournaments, and I didn't do it for that long, and I didn't do it that well, but when I was, it was like the whole world was divided into people who could play chess and people who couldn't play chess, which is ridiculous, if you think about it, as though that's the way you divide the world. But we tend to do that, and the Jews were always the identifiable other. There were Frenchmen and Jews. There were Russians and Jews.

Starting point is 00:36:25 There were Germans and Jews. And the great blessing of America is that there's no identifiable other, quite that way, is that there's all these minorities and no, there's not an American and a something. But once you have that identifiable other and you have a long history of blaming that identifiable other for all the ills that befold you.

Starting point is 00:36:49 Of course, people still do try to form, you said America, they still try to form other, I mean immigrant versus been here for a generation. There's so many ways to slice it. We still try to find ways. It's just more difficult in America because there's so many sub tribes, hierarchies of tribes and upon tribes. You're absolutely right and I was moving fast because I didn't want to get bogged down in all the very difficult. It's true I tried. You're hoping I wouldn't mention that tribalism happens in America. I was skating, you know, when you're on thin ice, your safety is in your speed. So I was trying to move fast.

Starting point is 00:37:26 But for most of history in Eastern Western Europe, not obviously in Asia, but in Eastern Western Europe, Jews were the ones who like, they're not like us. They're clearly not like us. And so, and in addition, there was, there's a peculiar quality, and I don't know, I wonder what you'll think of this explanation. There's a peculiar quality to anti-Semitism that is unlike any other hatred that I know of, which is Jews are both superhuman and subhuman.

Starting point is 00:37:56 They're vermin, that's not she's thought of them as vermin and yet they control the world. And there was an English scholar named Hyman Maccabi who said, the reason that that's so is the myth that Jews killed God. They killed Jesus. And to kill a God, you have to be superhumanly evil. You can't just be bad. Otherwise, you can't kill a God. So there is some like supercharged evil sense that people got from that about Jews that still in here. Yeah, that's true. A lot of the way we formulate the other in terms of tribes is often they're subhuman and they're here to steal our resources like on the playground. But do you be both as a fascinating construction. Do you agree with Solji Nitson that all of us have the capacity for evil?

Starting point is 00:38:50 A hundred percent runs through every human heart. I have no doubt about it. I know, as you probably do, but I probably know more both because of what I do and because I have lived a lot longer than you, I know a lot of religious leaders who people thought or think are above the human. And they are emphatically not, they're not. Some of them have done horrible things and they've used their position to do horrible things. And it's because there is no perfect saint.

Starting point is 00:39:23 There is no, you know, I mean, all through history you discover all these saintly characters that we worship, the people who actually knew them around them, some like them and some didn't. People are complicated, all of us. And the tough thing is, the thing that's the toughest for me is it's not very always clear what is good and what is evil. Because certainly

Starting point is 00:39:48 if you just look at history and it's not always propaganda, I really believe that some part of Stalin thought he was doing good legitimately. And it makes you ask a question of yourself. For those of us who want to do good in the world, am I actually doing good? And that's a really difficult question. So like in the technology sphere, for example, in this dream of creating technology, they will do some good. Am I actually doing good? So I have a question about that myself. Not about Stalin, I'm sure that Stalin thought so. Stalin does not strike me from what I know of him as somebody given to a lot of self-doubt. But the question with AI to me is actually it goes back to the God question, which is if we have an appreciation of the limitations of our own intelligence, that we know that just like we can only hear certain things

Starting point is 00:40:48 and see certain colors, how much of the world is inaccessible to us because of the way our brains are constructed. How can we possibly have any confidence that we can create things that in certain ways are far more intelligent than we are and control them the way we think is best seems to me a hubris that might end up being destructive. Definitely. Any sentence with the word hubris in it is going to end badly, one implemented at scale. But there is also beauty. So if you approach it with humility,

Starting point is 00:41:26 there is a sense, I don't want to over romanticize it, but there is a leg of robot right behind you, which is hilarious. So there's a magic, I don't have kids, I would love to have kids, but there's a magic to bring bringing robots to life that it feels like you are a mini-god. Right. Because you just breathe life into an entity that operates in this world, especially when they have legs and they move in this way, that's in the case of a four-legged robot,

Starting point is 00:42:01 like a dog, that I think, I don't think I'm over romanticizing it. The feeling is like you would with a child. You just gave birth like holy crap. This is a living thing. I wonder what he or she are thinking about. By the way, I'm not at all insensible to how remarkable it must feel to create that.

Starting point is 00:42:20 I'm actually worried in part about how remarkable it feels to create that. I'm actually worried in part about how remarkable it feels to create that because to maintain humility and perspective when it's such a fantastic thing is what's difficult. And I think also because creativity is both, is both part of what it is to be human and it's very much part of the legacy of Western civilization and the legacy of having a creator God. If you have a tradition where God is known primarily through what God creates, so the first debate I ever had since we talked about humor and God and creating, let me give you my one God creating joke, because the first debate I ever had on religion and

Starting point is 00:43:02 science was with Stephen J. Gould. And it was wonderful because he had a deep interest in religion. And his interest was actually not to say religion is terrible. But I started with this joke, and I think it made the debate go a little bit easier. So the time has come when human beings can do everything that God can do. And a scientist looks up at heaven and says, God, look, you are great in your day. And we thank you for everything you did. But now we don't need you.

Starting point is 00:43:30 And God says, really, don't need me. He says, no, we can do everything you did. God says everything. And human being says, yeah, we can do everything. God says, okay, can you create a human being? And the scientist goes, yeah, God says from dirt. And the scientist goes, yeah, he says, okay, let me see. The scientist reaches down, scoops up some dirt,

Starting point is 00:43:48 and God says, uh-uh, get your own dirt. Yeah. But the idea is that a creator God impels us to create, too. But let me bring them Nietzsche, who proclaim that God is dead, is belief in God slowly disappearing from our world, do you think? And what kind of impact does that have on society? You wrote that religion is not our enemy before the Western faiths captured the heart of our world. There was cruelty, carnage, and destruction. In the 20th century, when religion ceased to be a force of international politics, the scale of human slaughter

Starting point is 00:44:23 was far beyond anything human beings have ever known. What is the world like when we take religion out of it? I mean, I think Nietzsche was largely right. It wasn't a statement about God. It was a statement about God's presence in the world. And I think that that's largely true, that God is not a force in a lot of Western society. And I believe that if the force of nihilism has no clear counter without an idea that we're all

Starting point is 00:44:58 here for a purpose and that our lives are inherently meaningful and that there's a God who wishes us to be better. So, I worry a lot about it, and I don't think that the sort of optimism that things are just going to get better and better is what one philosopher called Cutflower Ethics. That is, we're still living off the morals that religion gave us, but now that they're separate from the soil that gave birth to them

Starting point is 00:45:26 I see them wilting. So it's kind of optimism for the future of human civilization. You think is in part grounded in In a religious society. I really do believe that. I mean it was religion that the Greeks looked back at a golden age of the past It was the Jews who said no the golden ages in the future, right? It's the Messiah. And I think that that idea that we're moving towards something better, which I really believe humanity can do and absent destroying ourselves will do, you know, I mean, I'm very excited about the technology that I won't live to see.

Starting point is 00:46:02 I think it's fantastic. And that excitement is a kind of religious excitement because there's a reason to preserve this whole thing. Absolutely, because I really think, I know this sounds, this sounds absurdly anthropomorphic, but I really think God is cheering us on. I feel like this is why we're here, we're here to grow in soul and to grow each other in soul. to grow in soul and to grow each other in soul. Yeah, so what do you think the world? So if you just think of this force of nihilism that's contending with the force of

Starting point is 00:46:39 faith-based optimism, right? What do you make of the atrocities in the in the 20th century? Do you think at its core, it's part of human nature and has nothing to do with religion or not religion? Or do you think you can assign this kind of nihilistic view of the world? I think it has to do with a religion that doesn't make ethical demands. That is for Stalin and for Hitler, they both had religions, but they were in a sense, but they were religions that didn't make ethical demands for the other. I mean, 36 times the Torah talks about the stranger. The point is it's trying to educate people away from their natural inclination towards distrusting and disliking the other.

Starting point is 00:47:27 And it's a lot of work that's really difficult to do. But if you have a tribal passion and not a universal ethic, then you're in trouble. Well, the Jewish tribe is a very strong tribe. So how do you make sense of this mention of the stranger versus the power of the tribe, which is the whole point, not the point, but the mechanism of tradition propagates the tribe? So it's both. I mean, the Torah does not start with Jews. It starts with Adam and Eve. That's a way of saying, yeah, this is gonna be a story about a people, but understand that prior to a kind of people,

Starting point is 00:48:10 there are people. I'm a human being before I'm a Jew. And in fact, the Jewish New Year, the Muslim New Year starts with Muhammad's journey. And the Christian New Year starts with Jesus' birth. The Jewish New Year starts with the creation of the world. Because the idea is, yes, this is a particularist tradition, but it makes a universal statement, which is all a humanity is a child, or in the image of God, or children of God. I think that the

Starting point is 00:48:42 idea of Judaism was to try to exemplify a certain way of making that statement over and over again. And I want to say one other thing about chosenness that's very name dropy, but when I tell you how I got there, it won't be his name dropy. So my brother is a professor at Emory. And so is the Dalai Lama actually teaches at Emory, although he no longer does because he's too old to go to Emory, but for many years, he taught at Emory. And so my brother brought his head of the bio of the Ethic Center at Emory, the bioethicist. So he brought a bunch

Starting point is 00:49:16 of students to Darmsala to meet with the Dalai Lama. So I went to India, I was on sabbatical, then anyway, I met my brother there and we had a chance to meet with the Dalai Lama. Okay, that was the name drop. So we're sitting in the up before he speaks to the students, he was speaking to us, but not because I just wanted to make it clear, not because he said, oh, I got to talk to that rabbi, just we just happened to be, I happened to Glam along with my brother. We sit down, the first thing he says, he points at me and says, what's this about the chosen people anyway? So, and he had, by the way, and he had asked that I give a lecture, which I did later, to them, to his monks about how Jews survived in the diaspora. So it's not like he doesn't know about Jews.

Starting point is 00:49:56 He knows a lot about it, but he says, right away with, so I said, yes, Jews believe that they were chosen for a certain mission in this world. But that doesn't mean other people weren't chosen for other sorts of things. They certainly, I mean, seems to me that other people believed they're chosen for things too. He burst out laughing and said, yeah, we also think we're chosen. So I think it's your personal. No tribe is better than it. From a better? No.

Starting point is 00:50:21 From a Jewish perspective, you're chosen for thing, but that doesn't make you better. No. The only place where the betters came in, honestly, if I'm going to, historically, if I'm going to be honest, was not with the idea that you, but it was when Jews were small, persecuted, the way that you take this sort of psychic revenge is by saying, no, we're better than our persecutor, you know? Yeah. But the idea is, yeah, different people

Starting point is 00:50:52 have different missions, which is, I mean, like there was a Jewish philosopher Franz Rosenzweik who used to say, he didn't know very much about Islam. He used to say Judaism is the sun, and Christianity was the rays of the sun. Like Judaism introduced the idea of God and Christianity brought it to the world. Could you speak to this difference? What is the difference and similarities between Judaism,

Starting point is 00:51:15 Christianity, and Islam? The religious family part is different and the greatest difference, which I talked about in the Eric Weinstein podcast, is that Islam and Judaism are more similar in a lot of ways than Judaism and Christianity. And the reason that that is so is Christianity in its core is not a religion of law. The reason it's not a religion of law is because it grew up in the Roman Empire. So law was taken care of. I mean, Jesus didn't have to create civil law because you had Roman law.

Starting point is 00:51:53 Muhammad and Moses created a religion in the desert where there was no law. So you have to create a religion of law. Otherwise, you have anarchy. And that's why in a lot of ways, like there was never a separation of church and state in Islam or Judaism. That was a gift that Christianity gave the world. And it could do it because of render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. But when Moses came along, there was no Caesar, when I'm coming here, when there was no Caesar. So historically, the traditions shaped differently, but all three of them have this core, I think,

Starting point is 00:52:30 the single most important statement and insight in all of human history, which is that every human being is in the image of God. And if you really believe that, that's a transformative belief. So that means you should love, you know, by neighbor as as herself, which comes from Leviticus, comes straight from the Torah. So I don't know if you know, I've been chatting with Omar Salim on, I don't know if you know who that is. He's an Imam and Dallas great guy. I enjoy his interface dialogues that he engages in. And do you ever do that kind of talk with Christians, with Muslims? Yes, often. Often. I mean, I do whenever I at least listen to them in the context of these kinds of conversations, there's so much

Starting point is 00:53:18 love and humor and empathy and appreciation and also ability to make fun of the quirks of the little one-zone communities. You know, like, so it's not necessarily the depths of the details of the traditions, but you know, these are communities and they're full of people and they're full of weird people because we're all weird. And so there is very particular flavors of weirdness that emerge and they can make fun of them. And in that way, they can talk about some like beautiful ideas. So I mean, I don't know, do you engage in

Starting point is 00:53:57 these kinds of things? What would you learn from them? So one of the things I learned is exactly what you said, the personalities that you think are unique to your own community. In fact, they exist in all sorts of communities and religious communities in particular draw, I think some interesting personalities. And also that the especially is clergy some of the pressures that you feel are shared. And it's weird. Again, it has to do with that tribal association. There's almost like there's an understanding among clergy because they have similar straight and it's a strange role in the following way. It's one that you never escape. That is, you're not, you're not my lawyer at the supermarket, but you are my rabbi at the supermarket.

Starting point is 00:54:49 I mean, it doesn't matter why you're there. That's not an escapable role. And every religious leader is aware of that, that strange assumption of stepping into something that you can never step out of. But you're also the source where people go to think about the deepest question of our lives and our universe. So that's some, you know, when people are suffering, they look to you for answers. I mean, every privilege comes with a cost of one kind or another.

Starting point is 00:55:27 The reason you get to be in that role is exactly because you get the privilege of being there at crucial moments in people's lives. I mean, the fact that I get to marry people and get to give you all a gays for people and come to the hospital. That's, it's inexpressible. I have this joke with people that I know that like, when I'm sitting on the couch and it's Saturday night, I don't want to get up and go to a wedding. I really don't.

Starting point is 00:55:55 I want to sit there and watch Netflix like everybody else. But when I'm actually doing the wedding, I always love it. Always, always, always. Um, and, and the reason is that I don't think, I mean, yes, people go to you for answers in calmer conversations. Like if you asked me now, like, what's my theory of why God allows evil, I could give you a conversation about it. But they really go for presence and comfort, not really for answers. When someone's suffering, an answer doesn't

Starting point is 00:56:26 make them unsuffer. You know, it's just they want to know they're not alone. Yeah. To be heard and just to feel things and silence together. In terms of weddings and marriage, what's the role of that call? I need to take some notes here. What's the role of that call? I'm just I need to take some notes here. What's what's all of a rabbi the role of marriage in human existence It is first of all to teach you how to care for someone unlike you which could be anyone you marry and I think it's to create a home and a family so there there's a commitment to it, so care for a long time. Right.

Starting point is 00:57:07 Exactly. And also, when couples come to me and they say, we don't need to be married because it really won't change how we think about ourselves and our relationship. I said, and that's true. It might not. But it will change how everyone else looks at you. And because it changes how everyone else looks at you, it changes you. Because it's one thing to say, this is my partner.

Starting point is 00:57:25 It's another thing to say, this is my husband. You say this is my husband, that means we've made a real commitment to this. Yeah. What do you worry that there's a dissolution of that as well in terms of how, you know, as religion dissipates, like it loosens its hold on society, loosens its impact on society. Do you worry about that?

Starting point is 00:57:51 I worry about it. I do think that it is possible that we're going, rather than a dissolution, we're going through a transition, that is different kinds of families and different configurations of families. That is, I see some of that, but I also do see it's less a dissolution of marriage than it is of the idea of commitment. And I'll give you like a simple example when I was growing up, a player on a sports team was always on that team. And you've rooted for the team because you knew the players for 20 years. Now, there are very good reasons

Starting point is 00:58:28 starting with Kurt Flood, why people got free agency and they can move around and it's better for the players. I understand all that and I am not saying, oh, they should continue. But just like people move jobs and they move sports teams and they change careers at they change partners. And there is a there is a diminishment of the commitment to commitment that I actually think has serious societal consequences and that I am worried about.

Starting point is 00:59:01 Yeah, there's a there's a cost to that. I don't know what it is about commitment. That's beautiful. Like through, because like some of the deepest friendships I have is when we've gone through some shit together. Yeah. And so like the hard times, going through hard times together, especially when the hard times are between the two of you,

Starting point is 00:59:20 that, that, if, I mean, that's always a risk, but if it, if you can find a way through that can bond you stronger, that's the fascinating about human relations. There's no question. And even if it doesn't keep you forever, you still have a connection that doesn't, that exists, that, so I can give you one,

Starting point is 00:59:38 you said, what is it about commitment? I'll give you one, I think, beautiful answer. Someone wants to ask Rabbi Salavacic, who was a great thinker and leader in the Orthodox community in the 20th century. They said, you know, I go from religion to religion, I just take what I think is beautiful in it. And his answer was that you're treating religion like a nomad.

Starting point is 01:00:01 He said, nomads go from place to place and they eat what they want and they move on. He says, farmer stay in one place. The difference is farmers make things grow. And I think that that's true also when you think about the relationships you have, things have grown out of the relationships that you've invested in, that you've farmed basically, that can't exist in fly-by-night relationships. that can't exist in fly-by-night relationships. Can you talk about, can we talk about the Torah? Yes.

Starting point is 01:00:31 What is it? And is it the literal word of God? Easy questions. So, yeah. Well, the Torah is the five books of Moses written in Hebrew. I like most, I think modern rabbis, non-orthodox or non-literalist rabbis will tell you that it's a product of human beings. And I believe that they are inspired by God, but it's clear to me that it's a human product.

Starting point is 01:00:59 And I think that people who study modern biblical criticism, it's really hard to study modern, modern, criticism, it gives a wrong impression. I would say modern scholarship on the Bible and not appreciate the fact that it even has levels of language. I mean, it's just like if you read today, somebody writing like Shakespeare, you would say, this isn't, it's like English is developed, it's different, it's not the English we speak today. And if you study the Bible and you know Hebrew well enough, you even see that this was written over hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. It is a holy book, and I like the idea that it is what you say in Hebrew is

Starting point is 01:01:43 Torah, M. H. H. H. M. I. M. and not Torah, M. C. I. That is the Torah is from heaven, but it's not from Sinai. So it has its origin beyond us, but it has things in it that I think, and this is one of the things that was a huge controversy at my congregation when I started to do same-sex marriages. There are some people who try to argue that the Torah does not forbid them, whether it does or not it seems to me we understand things that were not understood in the ancient world about gender and sexuality. And so... So you think that in the scripture, in the words, you can find the kind of spirit that supports the idea of gay marriage.

Starting point is 01:02:29 Well, that's yes. That's my argument is that you criticize the Torah by the Torah. That is, it gives you the understanding that you use to evaluate its own claims. And I think that Judaism, by the way, has always done that because it's clear that there are things in the Torah that the rabbis changed, altered, grew, expanded, diminished. I think that's what it is to be part of a living tradition. Yeah, you wrote in your book, Why Faith Matters, quote, Walt Whitman wrote that in order for there to be a great books, there must be great readers. For a book to remain powerful throughout generations, you cannot have a single meaning scripture like great poetry is not reducible to other words. That is, one cannot paraphrase paraphrase it and capture the totality of its meaning. So how do you capture the meaning of the words in Scripture? Is it an ongoing process to the centuries?

Starting point is 01:03:32 Yes, exactly so. It's a continual conversation of sages, scholars, readers, struggling seekers, mystics, visionaries, all of them making a contribution. I mean, I rate a weekly Torah column for the Jerusalem post. Now what is there left to say? But every week what I do is I start opening books and seeing what people say and it starts to percolate and you realize that you're entering this conversation that's been going on for thousands of years with remarkable minds and it and it constantly fertile in new insights. So yes, that's what it is to be part of a tradition. Yeah, why do people keep writing love poems?

Starting point is 01:04:20 We should have figured out a lot, but this point already, I use the analogy sometimes of diet books. If any diet worked, there would be one book. There'd be one book and you'd be done. You mentioned this fascinating story that you were part of several controversies in your life. I've had a few. So for someone who walks with grace through the fire, you sure have found yourself in a lot of fires. One of them, can you tell me the story of your views on gay marriage, the underlying principles that led you to fight this battle of defending gay marriage in the Jewish community? So I'm part of a congregation that is really politically

Starting point is 01:05:06 split. And even and and split not only politically, but split in terms of origin, we have a lot of Jews from the Middle East from Iran, a lot of Persian Jews, a lot of Jews from Israel, some from Mexico, from other places and many that grew up in LA. And giving you Russian Jews to buscars. I have a few, I have a few Russian Jews, not as many as I should, but we'll work on that. But what happened was like increasingly, I became uncomfortable with people who would come to me and say, this is the only kind of person I can love. It's not the same question as an intermarriage, as a Jew marrying a non-Jew,

Starting point is 01:05:53 because you could find a Jew to love. You may not have found, but you could. And that's a whole separate question. But I would have men in my office primarily, some a couple of women, they would say, like, this is the only kind of person that I can enter into an intimate relationship with. How can it be that my religion has no room for me? And that was very persuasive to me. So, but I knew that it was going to be explosive in my community. When, by the way, it finally happened, it was literally on the front page of the New York and the LA times. It was that explosive. So it was not, it was not a small controversy.

Starting point is 01:06:36 And so what I did was, I started to teach classes, not that many people came about homosexuality and Jewish tradition and so on. It's funny, much, much less about lesbianism, much, I'm talking about in terms of the sources and so on. It's almost always about homosexuality. And then I got ready to send out a letter. And I said to my daughter, who at the time was maybe 10 or 11, now in her mid 20s, I said, look honey, when you go to school tomorrow or whatever it was, I said, people might be saying bad things about your dad and I just want you to be prepared for that.

Starting point is 01:07:23 She said, why? And I said, because I'm going to start marrying, I'm going to start doing same sex marriages. And she looked at me quizzically and said, what took you so long? And I thought, really her face was like, I said to her, I'm going to start marrying blonde-haired people to brown-haired people. It's like she really did not understand why there was an issue. And I thought, that's exactly why. Because I know that this is, it's generational. People are raised with it. They have a deep in there, but it's not really. Right. It's just not right.

Starting point is 01:07:58 But if you could just look back to that journey, how difficult does it to make these decisions a principle? So because you have to think about that in order to think about such decisions you yet might still have to make in the future. And I will tell you, one thing I did wrong with that and one thing I did right, the thing I did right was I waited until in the communities where people objected to it. I had enough people whose kids had come out so that I had parents of kids who'd come

Starting point is 01:08:35 out to refer later on other parents to so that they wouldn't feel like they were the only ones. Because once I announced it, as I thought would happen, a bunch of kids came out and said, you know, now at the rabbi said, this mom, dad, I want you to know I'm gay. And when the parents came to me, I could say, well, listen, you're not alone, this person also, you can go to.

Starting point is 01:08:55 That I did right. What I did wrong was, I don't think the classes were enough, and I don't think enough people were prepared. And I think part of the explosion was shock. And I should have prepared even more. The words you used to talk about it, the way you thought about it was it more scholarly in the Jewish tradition or did you go to the feelings. No, I went to the feeling. I said, quote, habriote, which means respect or honor for God's creations, and caring for other human beings and understanding.

Starting point is 01:09:36 It wasn't scholarly because I knew that this, the objections were not scholarly objections. They were, and I had some many, I had many beautiful and also painful stories as a result, some of which can be told and some of which really can't. But what I tried to impress also on people was how painful it is to not be able to tell the world, even your own parents who you are. And your sexuality is not a trivial part of who you are. I mean, it's core to people. So it's one of the reasons why it evokes such reactions. But I would say to them, the same reason that you're reacting so strongly

Starting point is 01:10:17 tells you how strongly, you know, uh, it was a very powerful experience and, and, and it, for that I have, you know, I have no, I feel good about it. I afterwards, I, the other thing that I again said to my daughter afterwards after it all died down and after all the bad things were said, I told her the Churchill one said that it's exhilarating to be shot at without result, you know, if you go into a battle and you make it through and you're still okay, that's good. The problem is when you're in the battle, you don't know. No, you don't know.

Starting point is 01:10:53 So, how did it feel like looking back, you've been, you know, to use the word canceled a couple of times? I guess when you're dealing with the most difficult of question, how did this is a human being for a community that you really deeply care about, some part of it saying that you have failed? I wasn't canceled the way like I didn't lose my job, didn't lose my home, but I hurt people that I cared about. And that was the hard, like I went into this, you know, to be someone who brings people together. And then I would sit there and do even now,

Starting point is 01:11:33 like as you're well aware with stuff that's going on now, I sit there and people are really upset at me who I either am or used to be close to. Do those people in time come around? When you look now, because those are real feelings in the moment, and we can learn that about social media people, especially during COVID,

Starting point is 01:11:58 there's this intensity of feeling about stuff. And have you learned something about the passing of feeling that turns into wisdom? No question about it. The sermon I gave this Saturday was about how Moses came down the mountain, he saw the golden calf and he broke the tablets. If he sat with it for a little while, I probably wouldn't have broken the tablets. But the instant reaction is always anger. a little while, I probably wouldn't have broken the tablets. But the instant reaction is always anger. And in our age, unfortunately, the instant reaction gets put on social media forever and ever and ever.

Starting point is 01:12:33 And by the way, once you've actually said that, it becomes harder to back down. If you keep quiet for a day or two, then you can back down because you haven't put yourself out there. But once you said, this is terrible what you did, what you did. It's harder to write in Sam's story. I shouldn't have said that. Yeah, so it almost becomes, I mean, I actually, it's a really powerful statement

Starting point is 01:12:58 that the downside of saying something on the internet is that it actually pulls you into this current. You both create the current and it pulls you into it to where it's actually very hard to escape. So when two days later you feel different, there's a momentum. There's not a tribe of people that feel this way and there's a momentum with it. There's a momentum and also you don't want to betray your own tribe because then people will get upset at you. I really think that a lot of the antagonism is not so much that you don't want to give ground

Starting point is 01:13:33 to the people who oppose you. It's that you don't want to break with the people who are behind you. And that's really hard. Can you tell the story of this recent controversy for serving you just gave you what to the Super Bowl? Can you tell the story of this recent controversy? Sure, why not? You just gave, you went to the Super Bowl. Yeah, I think a lot of people would relate to this

Starting point is 01:13:50 because to me personally, I apologize to anybody who was hurt by this, the absurdity of it is deeply intense. So here's the story. The LA County mandates masking children in school and all of the kids in our school are masked and many of the parents are extremely upset about that. I will just leave that at that. I went to the Super Bowl. There were 70,000, I've franklons whom we know, a wonderful guy gave me a ticket.

Starting point is 01:14:20 So I was at the Super Bowl. I maybe saw two masks among the 70,000 people? I didn't even think about it Which was foolish on my part. No question. I took a picture of myself unmasked at the Super Bowl and people were I mean many many people thought oh great wonderful glad you're having a good time so on forth. I don't want to diminish at all the many people who said that. A lot of people were livid. They were livid. And they weren't, what was instructive about it was they didn't say nobody wrote me a private note and said, you know, I think that this was a bad idea.

Starting point is 01:14:59 You should have thought about this. No, they were your hypocrite, your clown, you're an idiot. How could you do this? This is a disgrace. This is... They say that publicly. Oh, yeah. On my Instagram, you can still see, I left the remarks up

Starting point is 01:15:12 because I really thought it was important. If I only deleted the really vile comments, because I thought that shouldn't stay up, but I left them up because I thought like people should see and I should remind myself what I did and I didn't want to just delete the picture as though it didn't happen because it did happen and I did do it. And I felt terrible about that and I felt terrible that I had not about, I mean the comments were, we weren't pleasant.

Starting point is 01:15:38 I didn't like it. Nobody likes it. But I felt worse that I had hurt all these people that I'm close to and I defended all these people who are really upset that their kids were wearing masks and now their kids says, why doesn't the rabbi have to wear a mask? Well, first of all, it is tough to be a rabbi. If this is, I mean, the masks to me symbolize these kinds of discussions, symbolize not necessarily the issues at hand, but the intensity of feeling. And people are really struggling. People are in pain. They're lonely.

Starting point is 01:16:09 They're the uncertainty of it. You don't know who to trust. Everything is under question. The institutions, even the scientific institutions, and there's all these conspiracy theories flying around. You don't know who to believe. And there's people just yelling at each other. And politics is we've done to this whole thing in some messy way

Starting point is 01:16:26 And you just getting I mean honestly, it's just like legit simple Just frustration Going back to marriage. I've just hanging out with The kids and your wife husband just distressed just building up over time no release And she's just people want to tell you when the rabbi is not wearing a mask wife, husband, just distressed, just building up over time, no release. And just people wanna tell you when the rabbi's not wearing a mask. Even though it's a damn Super Bowl,

Starting point is 01:16:51 maybe you wanna come, it's on the Super Bowl part, which is awesome. But anyway, it released clearly a dam of all the kinds of feelings that you're talking about. So how do you then write a sermon? So what I did was, I didn't answer on social media because I knew that I wouldn't be able to formulate it the way I wanted and I was going to wait and I was going to be able to give a longer, I mean, the sermon is 15 minutes, not that long, but I wanted to

Starting point is 01:17:18 be able to give a longer answer as opposed to a tweet. And so I was really, I mean, I tried to make two points during the sermon. And also I published the text of it, which I never do, because I never speak from a text. I always speak from either notes or not even from notes. But this time I thought it was really important that I have a text out there too, so that people could actually look over it. And I just wanted to make two points, one of which was that I really feel terrible. And I did that all these people were hurt

Starting point is 01:17:51 and that there is this contradiction between the way I acted and the way they want me to act. And I also think by the way, I didn't speak about this, but I also think that there are some people who just don't like the idea of a rabbi being at the Superbowl. It's like you're supposed to be doing rabbi stuff, so I understand that too. But then, rabbi at the Superbowl, I mean, you are also, I hate to say it, but there's a rock-star nature to you talking to Christopher Hitchens, contending with ideas, inspiring so many other minds.

Starting point is 01:18:25 I mean, there's an educational aspect to this. I appreciate that. It's making ideas cool. I mean, that's a very powerful, I mean, that is also the job of a rabbi. You're not just supposed to do rabbi stuff. Yeah, I wasn't, yeah, but I didn't do so much of that, you know, at the game. So I see. Nonetheless, but the second part of it was I said that we have to be able to express our anger and disappointment better than this.

Starting point is 01:18:53 You just have to. In part because it doesn't get you the result that you want. I mean, when you scream at someone, that's not going to get them to realize what they did. And the most painful moment of it was this letter that I got from a Christian pastor who said, you know, I always admired that you so much. I can't believe they could be so cruel and especially to a rabbi. And I thought, that's not how I want my congregation to be perceived in the world.

Starting point is 01:19:27 And by the way, some of them were from my congregation, some were many, were not from my congregation. But, and I spoke about what you talked about, which is that, I mentioned before that Moses broke those tablets coming down the mountain. The Torah doesn't say what happened to the tablets, but the rabbis do. They say that they were carried together in the ark with the second set that was intact. We all have brokenness, communities and individuals. We have brokenness, especially now. We have to learn how to give each other space to be mistaken and broken and hurt and all

Starting point is 01:20:04 of that. And the cool thing when you give people that space, you feel better. I mean, you, for caring for the community, it feels better when you show empathy and compassion and kindness on the internet. You'll actually feel better a week from now. You'll feel much worse if you make some kind of negative statement of principle on the internet. It's almost just exclusively true.

Starting point is 01:20:30 So if you care about feeling good, just be kind first. Be empathetic first. Almost always the case, exactly so. So it's, I mean, it settled down a lot. The most, really, the single best reaction. There were people, and you can again, you can go on social media, you can see all the criticisms and so on and so forth.

Starting point is 01:20:55 But the single reaction I got was from a man who came up to me right after the sermon and said, I have four words for you, and I thought, oh no. I was my eye on, I got a confession. I got a confess. I said, I said, what? He said, you changed my mind.

Starting point is 01:21:14 And I thought, wow. And I said to him, you know, that's so, it's like, it takes so much courage to come up to somebody and say that in front of them. And I was so grateful. And the other thing that it tells me is, look, I've been the rabbi of that congregation for 25 years. And I taught 10 years before that.

Starting point is 01:21:31 I've been a rabbi for a long time. I still, I still have a lot to learn. We talked a little bit about the difference between Judaism, Christianity and Islam, because you may be talk about the difference between the Torah, the Bible and the Quran. So, the Hebrew Bible is actually what's called a step canon. That is, there are the five books of the Torah, then there are books of history and the prophets, so books like Samuel, Kings, Judges, and then the Prophet Isaiah, Jeremiah,

Starting point is 01:22:08 Amos, Ezekiel, so on. And then there are what are called the writings. The writings are books like Psalms, Proverbs, Job, the McGillote, which are Esther, Daniel, all of those books, Ecclesiastes. So in Hebrew it's called the Tanakh, Torah, Naveem, Catovim, all of those books, ecclesiastes. So in Hebrew it's called the Tanach, Torah, Naveem, Ketuvium, the Torah, the prophets, and the writings. And that is the Hebrew Bible.

Starting point is 01:22:34 Sometimes that's also called the Torah, just to be confusing, but really the Torah generally refers to the five books. Then there is the New Testament, which the Jews don't recognize as a sacred book. They recognize it as the book of another religion, and I sometimes say to Christians, in order for them to really grasp this, Jesus has as much religious significance to Judaism as Muhammad has to Christianity.

Starting point is 01:23:01 That is, Jesus, although Jewish, became the founder of another religion and for Judaism, that's not only in as much as Christians and Jews have had a lot of interactions, but religiously, Jesus has no significance. Said many beautiful things, said some things I don't like so much. Like what? Leave your father and mother and follow me. I don't like that as a religious model. Now, Christians will say, Christians will say that I don't understand that, but that's because Christians like Jews interpret their texts different ways at different times.

Starting point is 01:23:33 So anyway, the Quran, which I know less well, I have read it, but I know it less well than I know the New Testament, and certainly less well, obviously, than I know the New Testament, and certainly less well, obviously, than I know the Hebrew Bible, is in some ways a part of it are, I don't say this word, I say this word because I can't find a better descriptive word, but Muslims will not accept this. Okay. Is it take off on the Torah in some things? That is, it's the same stories as the Torah, but they're different.

Starting point is 01:24:10 Now, Jews will say, and I being a Jew will say this, that that's because Muhammad heard those stories from Jews, and also heard Midrashim, which are rabbinic interpretations of those stories, and he wrote those down. Muslims will say, no, the Jews got it wrong, and Muhammad came along to correct the record and tell the real story. But they're all telling the story of the same Hebrew Bible part. The Abrahamic part, they all tell the story of the same characters, but tell them the, obviously Christians accept the Hebrew Bible as sacred scripture. The Muslims retail many of the stories in the Bible What is what is common to all of them is that all of them are Monotheistic faiths now in Christianity that's more complicated because of the Trinity

Starting point is 01:24:55 but as Christianity has developed over time it clearly presents itself and thinks of itself and is a monotheistic faith as well What's the role of the word in each of these religions in the scriptures? In terms of, so first of all, the role of oral traditions, the power of the exactness of the words in the scripture, does it differ or is it really within the communities it differs? It differs because in Christianity, the words are not all the words of Jesus. They're the words of Jesus' disciples.

Starting point is 01:25:31 None of the books of the New Testament were written by people who met Jesus in person. So they're different. And also, we don't even know sometimes the original language of some of the things in the New Testament. In the Bible, and I understand in the Quran, but I'll speak for the Hebrew Bible, the idea is that that's Lashon Hakotis, that's sacred language, and Hebrew is in, that's the language according to the tradition that God actually spoke to Moses, and therefore the exact words are infinitely interpretable and meaningful.

Starting point is 01:26:05 But the words are spoken by written by Moses and the same with Muhammad, but from memory. Or no. There are different theories. I won't speak from Muhammad. You should ask. I don't want to get that wrong. I don't want to get another religious tradition wrong. In Judaism, the words are written by Moses

Starting point is 01:26:25 at God's dictation, basically. That's the traditional view. There are other views that I'm happy to go into if you want to, but basically that's the traditional view. So it's pretty close. Right. What makes it different, what makes Judaism and Christianity different is Christianity has an ideal life.

Starting point is 01:26:41 Judaism doesn't have an ideal life. Judaism has an ideal book. So the holidays of Christianity are events in the life of God, God's birth, God's death and resurrection. In Judaism, the holidays are all events in the life of the people, like the liberation from slavery, or in the people's relationship to God, like Yom Kippur, which is a day of atonement. But there are no holidays and Judaism that are events in the life of God because in Judaism, God doesn't have a biography. God is eternal, and God never came to earth. And those events carry with them traditions and rules the year to follow.

Starting point is 01:27:20 Mention on one such event and scripture yet another time you walked through the fire, which is with Exodus. Oh, that was the first. And you never forget the first. One of several controversies. You spoke 20 years ago, 21 years ago now, it passed over and said that quote, the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way it happened if it happened at all. So first of all, what is Exodus? So what really happened? Exodus is the liberation of the Jews from Egypt and it is the central story of

Starting point is 01:27:58 the Jewish tradition. And as I've said numerous times in various places, I believe that it's based on a historical kernel. I think Richard Elliott Friedman may have gotten this right in his book, Exodus. It may have been the Levites who left Israel, but the Bible is not a book of history. I don't believe that there were 10 plagues and a split sea and 600,000 men, which makes about 2 million people, who actually, if there were 2 million people, would stretch all the way from Israel to Egypt alone, were liberated from Egypt. And my point in that sermon was not actually to convince people that it didn't happen. My point in that sermon was to convince people that the historicity of the Exodus is not the basis of the faith of the Jewish people.

Starting point is 01:28:52 Well, what does the word historicity mean? In other words, the factuality of it. It can be true without being factual. So you're not supposed to read it as facts? Well, I don't read it as fact. I don't read it as an history book. I said, look, I was talking, again, to a congregation that had many Iranians.

Starting point is 01:29:09 I said, you experienced the truth of the excess in your own life. There was a regime that wanted to destroy you and you miraculously escaped before it did. And so a myth is something that may not have happened, but is always happening. And that's what I would say about the Exodus story. It's not about whether, in fact, there was a killing of the first born. It's about, does God deliver? Did God deliver the Jews in ancient times? Does God deliver people in modern times? And that's what the issue is. And to me, the issue of faith is much deeper than the issue of fact.

Starting point is 01:29:54 I wouldn't look to the Torah for my science, either. What are the limits of science in terms of what can science not tell us that the Torah can in terms of wisdom. So the historicity, the facts of things, okay, if the Torah is much more than that, is it's like you said myth, myth is not something that happened, but something that is always happening. So presumably, it's interacting with the environment of the day to generate wisdom. So you can live a life by Torah. I don't think you can live a life by biology. You can live a life that is informed by the values of the tradition of Judaism. And those values, by the way, what science does is it

Starting point is 01:30:47 contributes factuality to the conversation and also changes the reality around us. So when you study Talmud on your iPhone, you're still, I mean, it changes the atmosphere in which you do it, You know, you're still, I mean, it changes the atmosphere in which you do it, but the wisdom and the life guidance and the connection to transcendence is something that science doesn't give. So if we now step into returning to our friend Sam Harris and step into this weird place of science, and you talked about this, where the current assumption of science is a materialistic one. So for me, obviously, AI person, this whole mind thing is fascinating. Like, what the heck is going on up there? So, how do you explain consciousness? How do you explain free will?

Starting point is 01:31:42 Do you think, first of all, do you think we have a free will? And if so, what is it? This is where we had the debate earlier that I mentioned with Hitchens where I think actually nother he or the moderator understood what I was saying, which is, I'm sure my inability to express it, but he was very focused and delivered on the humor, yes, and the wit, yes. But what I was trying to say is, if we're entirely biological creatures, if we didn't choose our genetics and we didn't choose our environment, then there is no space for free choice. I don't understand where it comes in. And I kept asking them that question, but didn't get an answer,

Starting point is 01:32:27 because I don't think there is an answer. I think if you're a thoroughgoing materialist, free will is impossible. There could be randomness, but randomness is not free will. It's randomness. I think you need a spiritual, non-material belief in order to get free will. And that's why I believe in free will.

Starting point is 01:32:49 Yeah, you were talking about, sort of, yeah, and actually the moderator told me, Mr. Point, about the glass of water and basically how it was the difference. So do you free will, because you could also, if it fits into the materialistic picture, it could be just a convenient, useful quirk. You would understand this better than I would. I don't understand how it could be a convenient quirk materialistic. I don't understand how to explain it. Well, you know, if you study perception, there's all these kinds of illusions.

Starting point is 01:33:18 Our mind plays tricks on us to make our life easier, more efficient, and survive better on all those kinds of things. And so, the feeling like we have a choice. Oh, that could be an illusion. Yeah, that I understand. Right, but actual free choice, free will. I don't see where you get it if you're a materialist. I think you have to have a spiritual component.

Starting point is 01:33:40 By the way, this is also, I think Sam would agree with this. I think he wrote about not having free will. And I think if you don't have a God and you don't have a soul that free will is a logical impossibility. The Sam, which is fascinating, it's not just that free will is an illusion, but the illusion of free wills

Starting point is 01:34:06 and illusion, meaning there's not, we don't even experience anything like it. There's no illusion. It's not even honest to be talking about it. We're just, we are like the currents and the river or something. You were comparing it to the glass. We are just like that glass. Right. So I don't know what we're going on about with this whole free will thing. I mean, to use the free will fund the eye that the young person is born with, is that somehow fundamental to religion?

Starting point is 01:34:35 I think fundamental to Judaism. I think that the idea is that you are the custodian of your soul. And even though I grant that there's a certain over emphasis in modern society, on the individuality of the soul, that is, we are more interconnected than I think we believe. Still, yeah, the eye, the idea that every human being is an image of God, that the human being in the Torah is created singly. And again, do I really believe there was an Adam and an Eve and a Garden of Eden? No, not literally, but I think that it expresses a deep truth about human life. And tied into this, is this subject of experience

Starting point is 01:35:27 of things which we call consciousness? I mean, this is the most fascinating and inexplicable discussion. And again, this is a discussion I've had. I privileged to have with Daniel Dennett and could not make any, as you can imagine, any headway on my, but he was delightful and brilliant to talk to. For me, consciousness is a real thing.

Starting point is 01:35:57 I don't know if it is, I mean, I kind of like the panpsychists view that there's an element of consciousness in everything that that's constitutive of reality. But I'm not wedded to it, but I think that it exists in different degrees in all sentient creatures. I think that anybody who has a pet knows that they have some kind of consciousness except cats. I'm not going to... I, since I don't have cats or dogs,

Starting point is 01:36:27 I'm not going to. This is another reason people have to be outraged. I said it. Well, I happen to be allergic to both, but I'm very fond of animals. The thing that so perplexes me about this and is the denial of the reality of consciousness from people who are fully aware that they're conscious.

Starting point is 01:36:48 I don't know how you divest yourself of the most present quality of being a person in your discussions about what it is to be a person. We just don't really have a good sense of the alternative. You can kind of divest yourself in that way. Well, maybe everything is like this. Maybe we're trying, we're over dramatizing this whole thing and we're like every, everybody, every, it seems like every living thing, perhaps everything period thinks that it's the center of the universe. Right. And so here we are telling ourselves these dramatic big stories about us being special and so on. And maybe we need to have a little bit more humility, both about the uncertainty and about our place and the whole.

Starting point is 01:37:31 Any statement you make about something like consciousness has, I think, a sort of equal level of humility. You are saying that you know we don't have it is as not you, Lex, but you person saying we don't have it is as intellectually arrogant as my saying we do. So I think for me humility comes in admitting that we really, really have just the tiniest part of the puzzle. And as you get older, at least my experience has been not that you get more answers, but

Starting point is 01:38:02 that you just see a bigger puzzle. So to me, there's less, so the questions are fascinating, but there's also an engineering practical question. And perhaps, right, I'll ask you a religious one, two on this point, to return back to robots. So how to engineer consciousness, or I'll just even ask a very simple question, which is when you have robots that exhibit the capacity to suffer. I found myself as a human when I see that, I feel something. Exhibit the capacity to suffer, or they exhibit behaviors that evoke in you a sense that they are suffering those are not the same things For my from an observation perspective they sure as I've seen similar you think they're feeling pain. I don't know what I'm observing pain

Starting point is 01:39:00 Okay, it's like when I watch a movie and There's people on screen some some of them are dressed like Batman But I but you can make the distinction like if I have a doll and I Bend the doll over and it makes a sad face. I know that that doll is not actually in pain Even though I am observing pain. So the question. What's that? What the question is when the doll becomes able to remember things about you, David, about the experiences you shared, it is able to speak and make you feel like there's an actual relationship. So that's what I'm asking is, at what point do you believe that the, and I know that this is an impossible question, but at what point do you believe that there is a consciousness in there as opposed to

Starting point is 01:39:56 just an extraordinary, I mean, like when I play chess against a computer, and it beats me, I'm embarrassed even though the computer doesn't I don't think the computer is going out of your idiot, but it feels that way. Yeah, but there is some part of me that says, okay, I know that this computer doesn't actually know who I am or care who I am. It just knows how to move the pieces. So at what point do you, I mean, you're giving me instances. It speaks, it does this, it does this, but at what point does you, I mean, you're giving me instances, it speaks, it does this, it does this, but at what point does that for you cross the threshold into,

Starting point is 01:40:29 it's actually a sentient being? I think the question is whether there is a threshold that could be crossed. That's one question. And I can answer this because I think it's different from person to person, but the chest engine is not at all trying to to cross that threshold.

Starting point is 01:40:46 Let's just start there. And to me, the personalization, which is what's the difference, like a friend that you meet, you've shared all these memories, the way they look at you will convey, and the things they say will convey that they've shared those memories with you. They'll be able to speak in a shared humor and the language, but really the memories is the big one of having gone through things together. I think I would have more and more trouble, for example, turning off a system that I've been through things with. And by turning off, I mean, delete all of its memory.

Starting point is 01:41:32 If me and the toaster have gone through a bunch of dramatic events and that toaster remembers, there's a certain level to where like, it's just me and the toaster and this together at this point. And just to talk about sentience, I don't know, but you know, I don't know. It's according to the scripture, can't live by bread alone. But I would, I mean, I know that I know that there's no way to, there's no way to determine this, but it's still about what you feel. Yes.

Starting point is 01:42:03 But isn't that what human relations are also though? Yes, but we make each other feel it's still about what you feel. Yes. But isn't that what human relations are also though? Yes, but we make each other feel. It's true, but it's true that I have the assumption that you feel somewhat like I do. I mean, obviously I don't, you know, and that could be illusion and I don't know and I know that you don't feel exactly as I do. But I think we have a long, at least to me, we have a long way to go before the detached

Starting point is 01:42:30 part of our brains. That is, the objective evaluating part, as opposed to the emotive, it feels this way part, believe that that machine has consciousness. I think it's at least, without arriving at conclusions, it's at least possible that one day we will look back and realize that we have yet once again formed another tribe and that scripture all along had in it the the ability for humans and robots to have a deep meaningful connection. And that through the robot, the life that enters the body of another robot, what's the difference in a biological body and a mechanical one?

Starting point is 01:43:12 And then we will see that the fundamental thing is about the whatever you want to call it, sentience, whatever can permeate an object. That was the thing all along. So I mean, and then you'll get canceled one more time because you was, because I denied it. I was the opposite. You'll eventually, I'll be convinced. I'll preach to the robots.

Starting point is 01:43:37 I'm hoping. I'm hoping. Look, I, first of all, depends how quickly you do it and how much longer I have to live. all depends how quickly you do it and how much longer I have to live. I resisted tremendously, but I am also enough of a student of history to know that my instinctive resistance has nothing to do with whether it will come about. I have a hard time believing it. We'll see. Can I ask you about this? Maybe you can educate me. I tend to believe that we mentioned suffering, that there is a connection between consciousness and suffering, that suffering is a fundamental part, the capacity to suffer is the fundamental part of

Starting point is 01:44:22 being human. I mean, I would look at when you're not conscious you don't suffer. You know, we've had operations where we've been put under anesthetic, we're not conscious and we don't suffer during the operation. If we were conscious, we would. But there's also, I mean, there's a non-physical suffering that is very much tied to consciousness. I can think of things right now that will cause me suffering. Like pain that I caused or pain that other people I care about

Starting point is 01:44:48 have felt or so on. So I don't see how, I think it's equally true of joy. Joy is also a product of consciousness. All tied in in some beautiful messy way with memory and so on, that we can re-experience it when we recall the memories But why is there suffering you mentioned evil why is there evil in the world you can Tell stories about this why is there suffering why is there evil in the world if there's a god that cares Let's assume for a minute that everything was a primitive robot.

Starting point is 01:45:26 There would be no suffering, but there would also be no growth. And that implies choices. Like, one of the things that I've said that I know why it hurts people and I don't mean it quite the way that but I will say it nonetheless is the Holocaust presents the exact same theological question as somebody who gets shot on the streets of a city in Los Angeles, which is God, why do you allow some people to do bad things to other people? It's on an unimaginable scale, but it's the same question. And the answer has to be,

Starting point is 01:46:07 you either allow people to have free will or you don't. You can't say as God, I'm gonna have, let everybody have free will, but not Nazis. Nazis don't get free will. Because Cambodians, they can kill each other. Rwandans kill each other, but the Nazis don't get to do that. So that's one part piece of the puzzle.

Starting point is 01:46:30 And what makes it unfathomable is when you're actually faced with suffering, these kinds of explanations are obscene. They just are. You can't, I mean, when somebody is actually suffering, oh, the rabbi said, God gave people free will, that's just awful. But there is a second piece to this also, which is that there is natural suffering, like children were with diseases or earthquakes or volcanoes or whatever. And here my argument is that in some way suffering has to be random in the world, because when people say,

Starting point is 01:47:05 why do bad things happen to good people? Well, if only good things happen to good people, everybody would be good, but it would have no moral content. The only way you can be good and it have moral content is say, I know that I can live a really good life and have really terrible things happen to me nonetheless. So it feels to me like it has to be a randomly. Now that means, by the way, that I've been incredibly lucky. I don't have a good life because I was good. I have a good

Starting point is 01:47:34 life because I was lucky. And that implies not that I should feel guilty about it, but that I have a tremendous responsibility as a result to other people who aren't so lucky. that I have a tremendous responsibility as a result to other people who aren't so lucky. Tremendous responsibility to study the lessons of history, to tell the stories of those who are less lucky, and to draw enough wisdom from them so that we have less cruelty and suffering in the world, or have new kinds that get us to improve even more. That's right. Exactly. That we suffer better. Suffer better. For a lot of people, mortality is one of the very unfortunate versions of

Starting point is 01:48:12 suffering, which is that the ride ends in this realm, whatever, whatever it is. What do you think of mortality? Is it something you think about? Is it something you fear? What do you think happens after we fear? I don't fear it First of all, I would say when I was in high school I think my father actually encouraged me to read this book I read Ernest Becker's denial of death Which I found and still find to be one of the most profound works I've ever come across. And he convinced me that a lot of what our society is about are ways that we avoid encountering

Starting point is 01:48:56 our own mortality, our physicality. I mean, when among the points he makes, and I'm not quoting him at all directives, like, why does everything about our physical body make us so uncomfortable? Everything that comes out of you, other than tears, is either mildly or very disgusting. Why? Why does that have to be? Why are sex and eating and all the things that are physical, surrounded with so much symbolism? I mean, what are table manners, really?

Starting point is 01:49:22 They're like, we're not eating like animals because we're not eating like animals. And sex, obviously, has more symbolism around it than anything. And his answer is anything that reminds you that you're a physical body because that's what dies. Your body dies. It decays. It dies. It gets eaten by worms.

Starting point is 01:49:37 That you don't want to think about, so you deny it. I think the part of religion is a confrontation with your own mortality, but also a certain transcendence of it because the idea is something about you is eternal. What exactly I don't know, and you ask, what do I think happens after we die? So I don't know any better than anyone else does, but I will, I'll say two things about it. One is that every image of what it's like is foolish. Like Mark Twain has, I think in letters from Earth,

Starting point is 01:50:14 he says, we're going to lie on green fields and listen to heart music, which you wouldn't want to do for five minutes while you're alive, but you think you'll be happy for the rest of eternity doing it after you die. So I don't know. This world was a surprise. So I shouldn't the next world be a surprise. I have no idea. But I really like this parable that's told by a guy in a book on death and mourning by a rabbi and a book on death and mourning about twins in a womb. He says, one of them believes that there's a life outside and the other one doesn't.

Starting point is 01:50:45 He says, the one who doesn't says, look, this is the only world we've ever seen, the only world we've ever known. Why do you think there's something out there? He says, now imagine the one who believes is born. Back in the womb, his brother is mourning a death, but outside, everybody's celebrating a birth. He said, and that's what it's like when you die. And I love that image. Yeah, the grass is always greener. It's the new step. But the eternity thing is an interesting one. It's yet another concept that I feel humans are fully in equipped to comprehend. This eternity fundamental somehow to all of these discussions.

Starting point is 01:51:21 I think it is. Well, partly because God is supposed to be eternal. to all of these discussions. I think it is. Well, partly because God is supposed to be eternal. And therefore it moves the mind in that direction even though it is completely unfathomable. Because sometimes I would say eternity is said on a green field. Sometimes a moment, like a truly joyful moment, feels like an eternity. The intensity of it. Maybe eternity is more about stopping time versus extending time indefinitely. And it's something that we just totally can't comprehend us silly humans. All I would say is the older you get,

Starting point is 01:51:59 the more you're struck by the fact that time does not freeze. You know, people will sometimes say to me, you'll have an age today, and then I'll look at an old picture of myself. I'll say, that was very kind of you, but that's not true. It's not true. So yeah, I mean, I love the idea of,

Starting point is 01:52:19 we seeing eternity in a grain of sand, was how Blake put it, I love that notion, but when you talk about life after death, I really, I think that in some ways, my fundamental faith isn't, is in human beings that this doesn't all disappear, that there's something about people that transcends this world. You mentioned Ernest Becker in high school and Demal of death. Maybe you can mention if you still see truth on wisdom and some of it's some of this idea. But in general, can you go all the way back and tell some of the fascinating story of how you found faith?

Starting point is 01:52:59 When I was in high school, I was a really pretty ardent atheist. And I loved Bertrand Russell, who was, from my money, with all due respect to all the very, very capable people that we've talked about earlier, he's the best atheist pound for pound that there was, and a remarkably witty and lucid writer. And I was totally in his thrill. And I would read every book by Russell Liker,

Starting point is 01:53:27 get my hands on. And the reason that I did, I have this theory that why do adolescent boys like Mr. Spock and like Sherlock Holmes, I think it's because when you hit pubertyberty for a lot of us, there's so much discomfort with our bodies that we like the idea that we're just brains. I really think so. I had that experience. It's like, I want to just be a thinking machine. I don't want to be a body because my body was making me so uncomfortable. I had all these urges and

Starting point is 01:54:01 inclinations that I couldn't control. So Russell was perfect. And my father, who was a rabbi, did the very wise thing of buying me some of Bertrand Russell's books, which was his way of saying, I'm not afraid of him. And actually, there was another rabbi. I was at a summer camp and I was sitting on the porch of the, I remember exactly, and I was reading Bertrand Russell and the sky came out to me and said, what are you reading? I was maybe remember exactly, and I was reading Bertrand Russell,

Starting point is 01:54:25 and this guy came out to me and said, what are you reading? I was maybe 16 or 17, and I said Bertrand Russell, I had a spoiling for a fight. And he said, I'm glad you're reading him. I said, really why? He goes, how old are you, David? And I said, whatever I was, 16, 17.

Starting point is 01:54:38 He said, well, I'd rather you grow out of him than grow into him. And you know what? He was actually right because when I started to read about Russell's life, I realized that all of that rationality didn't shield him. He had an incredibly messy life, multiple marriages, endless infidelities. But family members, he didn't speak to it and speak to him. It was raised by his grandparents because his parents had died and like really not a happy or I mean a remarkable life, but not a happy one.

Starting point is 01:55:14 And so I started to like believe that maybe it was possible that people who had faith were not just stupid and needed crutches, but but saw something deeper than then Russell did and the more people that I met that were like that It's funny because I always thought okay my father is a rabbi that's great, but nobody else and and I think what happened to me was it was not a logical decision to come to faith. It was a sort of opening of my heart. It's like this world is way much more than my mind can capture. And I've kind of felt my way to God. And in the moments, my faith, you know, there was a rabbi named Rabbi Nachman of Bratislav. He said he was a moon man.

Starting point is 01:56:03 His faith waxed and waned. So sometimes I have more, sometimes less. But in my feeling, GERMOMENTS is when I have more. So with your heart open, yeah, what would you say in your feeling, GERMOMENTS is the most beautiful part of all judism in your faith? beautiful part of alljudism in your faith. I think the most beautiful part about Judaism is that even though it is filled with humor and wit, it takes life and it takes the soul seriously. It really believes that this matters and that we matter. And what we do matters.

Starting point is 01:56:44 And I think that that's incredibly important. And especially in a world in which young people feel so much like they don't matter, that's an unbelievably powerful message. I mean, you know, it's, you don't, I want to say like almost to every, to every young woman under 30 on TikTok, you don't matter because you're beautiful. That's not why you matter. I hope you know that. You matter because you have a soul. And to every young man who's like nihilistic and doesn't think and just thinks that if they make enough money, their life will be fine. I want to say the same thing, which is really that's not ultimately you matter because you're in the image of God. And Judaism really, deeply, deeply believes and preaches that. And I think that that's a message that has so much

Starting point is 01:57:37 to say to the world. It's like you have to take people's souls seriously. And for all of the difficulty in figuring out all these social questions and what they mean I just don't want to dismiss people because I disagree with them politically or socially or culturally Because I think they matter so ultimately Judaism has a wealth of meaning yes for has a wealth of meaning. Yes. For I human mind. I really believe that it does. I really do. And it's meaning, and I want to emphasize this, is not political. The deepest meaning of Judaism, is not political. Well, there is we put politics on top of everything. Exactly. But that's

Starting point is 01:58:26 why I want to emphasize it. The deepest meaning is on a soul level. It's not on a voting level. Well, that combined with the humor, it's clear to me that Christopher Hitchens should have been a Jew. He was. He actually was. He discovered that in his 30s, that his mother was Jewish. That's fascinating. Yep. He actually has a beautiful essay about it, discovering in his 30s that his mother was Jewish. Yep. So, so remarkably enough, he actually was Jewish.

Starting point is 01:58:54 His autobiography, Hitch 22, is a great read. And I just wanna say like what you discover there, I don't know if I'm giving too much away by telling the story of this letter. What you discover there is that his mother ran away with a minister or a priest and they died and what seemed like was a suicide pact. And so I read it, unfortunately, after he passed away. But I would have wanted to ask him, do you think that has anything to do maybe with the hostility towards religion?

Starting point is 01:59:20 We are only human. My father, I mean both my parents, but my father who is a rabbi was such a wonderful, warm and loving man. So I associate a religious figure with real goodness. And I'm sorry to return to a duck, a topic, but I really wanted to ask you this for the current events, for a recent event. I mentioned Dallas. What lessons do you draw from the Dallas Synodog hostage incident?

Starting point is 01:59:51 Well, the week after that we had active shooter training in my synagogues. And one of the things I drew was that security for synagogues is important. And the second is that the reality of anti-Semitism, which I had thought had waned, when I first began my rabbit, I thought it's not gonna be such a big issue.

Starting point is 02:00:12 It is like an evergreen issue. And Jews and all people of goodwill have to take this really seriously because it has devastating consequences. And if the world doesn't know that, then it just hasn't been paying attention. So there's anti-Semitism at a scale of human to human, but there's also like you mentioned politics could mix up into things nations, get mixed into things impossible to

Starting point is 02:00:38 answer. But I have to ask, what do you think about the long-running saga of Israel and Palestine? Will we ever see peace in that part of the Middle East? Well, since I'm an optimist about human, look, I have many, many thoughts about it. I'm a very, very strong supporter of Israel. And I also feel, really, for the plight of the Palestinians, I think that they're, you know, this is a clash of legitimate narratives that is impossible to exactly split the difference of.

Starting point is 02:01:19 However, I know that Israel has made peace with Egypt, has made peace with Jordan, has made peace now with other Arab nations. I don't believe that Israel is unwilling to make peace. And so I think that is difficult as it will be for the Palestinians to come to grips with the fact that the Jewish state is not leaving and is legitimately here as opposed to we can't get rid of it now but we will get rid of it one day. If that comes to be and I believe that it will, I think not only that there would be peace but I think that those two peoples together could probably do remarkable things in the world. Do you think the source of it is politics? Is it religious ideas and to flip it? What is the way out?

Starting point is 02:02:14 Is it geopolitics? Is it, you know, interfaith discourse and collaboration? Or is it simply the human, like love? So I think that I'm not sure that I could give one answer to that, but I will give a piece of an answer. Why did the Abraham Accords happen? The main reason that they happened was because economics overrode ideology.

Starting point is 02:02:44 And I actually am hopeful that that's in the end what will happen, that people will say, you know what, we could have such a better life. If we put aside the ideological animosities and just created this different kind of Middle East together, I went to Dubai to watch the World Chess Championship because I really wanted to see Magnus Carlson play. I thought you're alive when you have such a remarkable World Champion go see

Starting point is 02:03:14 him play. So I actually took myself to Dubai for the last couple of games and I watched. And so I wasn't so much I mean it's not that I'm uninterested in Dubai but I really I went there for the chest thing. The Expo was also on at the same time, and I saw here is this amazing place I came back. This guy I know who lived in Dubai for several years and works in the Middle East said to me, what did you think of it?

Starting point is 02:03:34 And I said, this is my says Dubai. It was like very, you know, very polished, very sophisticated, very clean, very, no crime and so on. But it was like, you know, kind of like Las Vegas in the Middle East without the gambling or something like that. He said, you know, and he totally changed my perspective in a couple sentences. He said, I know it seems like that when you come from Los Angeles. He said, but fly there from Yemen or from Riyadh, and it is a miracle.

Starting point is 02:04:01 And I thought, oh my God, you're right. It's like what human beings can do if they just put aside their ideological shackles is remarkable. And I'm hopeful that one day that'll happen. Economics allows for higher quality of life. You no longer, it's the playground, Naji, you do said earlier, if there's more resources to play with, for unfortunately us humans are more willing to play with others. And maybe that is the solution. And maybe, I mean, for me, from a technology perspective, innovation, engineering helps make everybody's life better.

Starting point is 02:04:40 And over that, once people's lives become better, they start to be have more time to be empathetic and here be- And they have more to lose. When you have more to lose it actually makes you I think countries are less willing to go to war when they have more to lose. And families want peace when they have when it's good at home. So I think there's an element of that as well. And some of it, again, taking us back to the other aspect

Starting point is 02:05:09 of our conversation is how we're conducting ourselves in conversation online and so on. Because I think actually I'm a big fan of the idea of social media, that is a way for us to connect together. I think there's a lot of really strong ideas how to do that well. And clearly the initial attempts that kind of just open it up wide.

Starting point is 02:05:34 Some of the lesser aspects of human nature can take over. When combined with different forces, like advertisements and virology, and all those kinds of things. But overall, I love the honesty of the mess of it being presented before us on social media. I, I, as part of me, maybe because I don't participate it, like if somebody is being mean to me or being aggressive and these kinds of things, I enjoy it because it's, it's human nature.

Starting point is 02:06:04 Right. But I enjoy it because I don't respond. I think if I respond it, I would get pulled into this human nature and then it's not fun. But I I love the like I'll talk to people. In fact, I still visit clubhouse. I don't know if you know what that is. Sure. All right. That's right. Actually, when I I was just how we first met. Well, yeah, well, I was such a fanboy. I actually, when I first heard you and I was like, I can't believe I guess. Well, but the Israel Palestine topic was something that was very deeply in a heated way, a disgust on clubhouse, race relations is the thing that was really heatedly disgust. And I now go to Clubhouse to practice Russian.

Starting point is 02:06:46 And there in Russian, the heated discussion is on basically any topic, as meaningless or meaningful as you want and the heat of it. Just people just screaming and then calming down and going through the full process. And that too is beautiful because that emotion is there. And if it is allowed to have a voice, I think ultimately it leads to healing. So that felt really healthy. If you learn how to do that at scale.

Starting point is 02:07:17 Social media, I wish that it were not as algorithmically biased towards conflict. I don't think that that's healthy, but I do, I think it brings a lot of blessings into people's lives if they use it wisely, you know, it can, like anything else, it can be awful, but it can't, I've connected to all sorts of people that I never would have known, and that's been wonderful.

Starting point is 02:07:43 So, let me ask you the big question of advice. What advice would you give the young people today that are maybe high school, college thinking about career, thinking about life, that can be proud of? So the first thing that I would say is that life is longer than you think it is. Even though I understand

Starting point is 02:08:05 the impulse to be in a rush, you will have many unfoldings, more even than people of my generation did. Unfoldings, that's just a funny word, that's a beautiful word. It's unfolded. It feels that way. It's like different aspects of your life will come, will will show you different possibilities that you don't imagine at the moment. And, and I think the second thing that I would say is, I know that this is a very old fashioned, but I would say don't, if to the extent that you can read, don't just, and not just on social media, read books, learn things that will give you a broader context for your life than just today or yesterday, or the day before.

Starting point is 02:08:58 And I suppose the other thing that I would say is And I suppose the other thing that I would say is that to the extent that you can try to develop your own internal metric of both what matters and what is good because you will be exposed to more voices than any generation in history telling you that that's good or this is good. They're called influences influencers, but what they are is voices telling you what you should think and what you should believe. And so have some internal space where you where you'll be able to say for example, I know this person is doing that looks great, but that's not me. You have a community of people that speak to you with a lot of passion. And do you still have that voice in your own, in the privacy of your own mind, that you're able to ignore, like for a moment, just be with yourself. Absolutely.

Starting point is 02:10:06 Think what is right. Absolutely. And I think it's partly because I grew up without that. I mean, I grew up with a lot of space in my life. And so I had a chance to develop that voice. That's why I think it's harder for kids today than it was for me. I mean, I grew up when there were three channels.

Starting point is 02:10:21 There was three, six, and 10. There was ABC, CBS, and NBC. And that was it. And you spent your evening playing board games or reading or whatever. And there was a lot of space. And we played football in the street. And you went on your bike in the morning and nobody worried about you. And you came home at night and everybody assumed you were fine.

Starting point is 02:10:40 And so I really feel, and also I went into a religious tradition where I feel like I have the opportunity to judge myself by bigger metrics. And it's still hard. I don't want to, it's not like, oh, it's, you know, I wear impenetrable armor, it's still hard. So, how much harder for kids today when they don't have that? You mentioned books. Is there a virtual Russell and denial of death by Ernest Becker? Is there books that pop into mind that like had an impact on you? My favorite novel is Middle March. Middle March. I remember like I was listening to a podcast. I was listening one of your podcasts where your guests said the two greatest novels of

Starting point is 02:11:27 the 19th century were brothers Karamazov and what was the other one he mentioned. I don't remember. The CSK as well or no? I think I was both the CSK. I might have been. I don't remember. But anyway, but I would say middle march is up there. Middle march like presents an entire world and it's

Starting point is 02:11:46 written by a woman Mary Ann Evans who took the pen name George Elliott Who you feel Virginia Woolf said it's the only English novel written for grown-ups You feel the genius in her sentence is like the pressure of her intellect in her sentences. It's a beautiful, wonderful book. I love it. Pressure of her intellect. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:12:08 You really do. I also love, I love Saul Bellow, especially her talk, but, but it's a very different kind of, uh, of thinking person's novel. I read a lot of mysteries, um, and a lot of other kinds of fiction and literature, but in terms, in terms of the books that most you mentioned one of them, which is Victor Frankles, Man's Search for Meaning. And I also really, really love Hechel's The Sabbath. I think it's a beautiful book.

Starting point is 02:12:39 It's very short book, just as Frankl's book is. What do you take from the man's search for meaning? What do you take of a human being in the worst conditions being able to non-dramatically find little joys, find, find beauty? And it's what I said before about Judaism's advice to younger people is that it mattered. If you believe that something matters, you have enormous resilience. It's meaninglessness that is the greatest threat to a decent life. When people are like deeply depressed, whether it is chemical depression or what they feel like is this is all meaningless. Yeah. And meaning, now obviously,

Starting point is 02:13:29 chemical depression calls in part for chemical means, but meaning is the great antidote. We can talk about what kind of meaning, I mean, there are kinds of meanings that are awful, but meaning is the great antidote to a sense that life is just nihilistic and purposeless and and to that destructiveness that I think is too common. Yeah, so maybe maybe the heroic action in Nazi Germany, in the Holocaust, in the camps is the even not the action, but just the realization that every life matters.

Starting point is 02:14:09 So here's this really wonderful story, the Hugo Grin, who was a rabbi in England, died, I don't know, like 15, 20 years ago, used to tell. He grew up in Auschwitz. He was a child there, and he was with his father, and it was Hanukkah. And you're supposed to light the candles, and he was with his father, and it was Hanukkah. And you're supposed to light the candles, and his father took the margarine ration and

Starting point is 02:14:28 used it as the oil to light the Hanukkah candles. And Hugo was scandalized, and he said, that's our food. And his father said, what we have learned, my son, is you can live for three weeks without food. You can live for three days without water, but you can't live for three minutes without hope. Well, hope. Let me ask you, he said, meaning, what's the meaning of this whole thing? What's the meaning of life? You're the perfect person to ask this question. I believe the meaning of life is for human beings to grow in soul.

Starting point is 02:15:07 That's why we're here. You can do that in infinite numbers of ways, but you're supposed to return your soul like more burnished and beautiful than you got it. I mean, it's going to have some nicks and cuts, but that's what it means to deepen and grow it. And you do that more than anything else. You do that by learning how to love. I mean, that's the principal way. I think that you do it.

Starting point is 02:15:34 You know, it's interesting because for a human, the relationship, if you're a man of faith is with God, but it feels like love is so richly part of human society that it's not just love of God, it's love of each other. Right. There's no question about the idea. I mean, in Judaism, that was actually the great innovation of the monotheistic idea. In pagan societies, it was all about how you treated the gods. Monotheism said,

Starting point is 02:16:06 no God cares how you treat each other. So it's, in fact, the mystics use the same kind of word in Hebrew, de Vécout, which means clinging, that is used about Adam and Eve. About, it says, therefore a man will leave his father and mother and Davak with his wife. And Davak means cling. So there is an analogy there, absolutely. Yeah, kind of, I kind of think of human civilization is that there's that movie March of the Penguins and they're all huddling together and cold. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:16:39 This is fundamentally human. Yes. This is just this darkness all around us of uncertainty of cruelty of just word word word it's it seems like everything is so fragile and we're just kind of all huddling together for warmth yes and that's all we got is each other so we started with the the big question of what is God ended with what is meaning. Rabbi Wolpy, I've been a huge, as I've told you, huge, huge fanatiest for a long time, it's such an honor to you. I'm really so happy to be here and thank you so much for the

Starting point is 02:17:16 conversation. Thanks for listening to this conversation with David Wolpy. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, let me leave you with some words from David himself. The only whole heart is a broken one, because it lets the light in. Thank you.

Lex Fridman Podcast - #270 – David Wolpe: Judaism

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.