Lex Fridman Podcast - #288 – Sarma Melngailis: Bad Vegan

Starting point is 00:00:00 The following is a conversation with Sarmar Melengalis, a chef and restaurant tour who was the subject of the Netflix documentary Bad Vegan, fame, fraud, and fugitives. The documents, the rise and fall of her vegan raw food restaurants in New York City that ended in what she called a road trip from hell, being a resident in Tennessee, her pleading guilty for stealing over $2 million and serving four months at Ryker's Island jail. Sarma dispused the veracity of the documentary and its conclusions, saying that she was misrepresented. So I wanted to talk to her to get the full story, at the seek understanding of who she is as a human being. The good and the bad. And now a quick few second mention of each sponsor.

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Starting point is 00:04:50 of free notion for a team of ten. Go to notion.com slash startups. That's notion.com slash startups. This episode is also brought to you by BetterHelp spelled H-E-L-P-H-H-H-H-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-P-H-H-H-H-L-P. They figure out what you need and match you with a licensed professional therapist in under 48 hours. They actually sponsor a few podcasts that I really enjoy and it's always fun to listen to sort of the differences in the way the different podcasts do the reads. I've recently got a chance to talk to Bob Lee who's this hilarious stand-up comedian, just hilarious funny human. He hosts the Tiger Belly podcast and Bad Friends podcast. And yeah, better help sponsors him and them and those podcasts since they're definitely way sillier. To me, I think talk therapy,

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Starting point is 00:07:24 And now, dear friends, here's Sama and Gala's. You've said that you did a lot of reading when you were growing up and you mentioned fear and loading in Las Vegas by 100th Thompson. So from the reading you've done in those early days, how did you see the world? Was it to you a beautiful place or a cruel place? I don't think I thought about the world. You were focused on family, just basic day-to-day life. I think I was focused on day-to-day. I had an awareness of not fitting in,

Starting point is 00:08:12 but I think back then it felt like something was wrong versus some people are just that way. As speaking of books, I read a book called Party of One by a woman named Anali Rufus that somebody gave me and suggested I read, and that helped a lot. That was one book that made me feel like it made me understand things from the past that I hadn't understood before, specifically kind of feeling out of place, even among my family, which is where you're not supposed to feel out of place. kind of feeling out of place, even among my family, which is where you're not supposed to feel out of place. Yeah, I'm not sure where I saw it, but I think you mentioned that you were a bit of a loner,

Starting point is 00:08:49 and I also think I saw somewhere pictures of you with green hair in high school, and a wild haircut, what was that about? Was that real? Am I just imagining? No, you're not imagining it. It's strange because I was kind of a a loner

Starting point is 00:09:09 So it'd be strange to do something that calls so much attention to yourself because back then I mean I grew up in a suburb of Boston and Newton and Anybody that was there around that time probably if you said you know that girl with green hair or blue hair was blue most of the time, they would remember like seeing me walking down the street because it stood out like crazy, especially back then now it wouldn't stand out so much but back then it really stood out. So, I was trying to think about why I did that when I was kind of a kind of shy and on the one hand wouldn't want to bring attention to myself, but I did something that did. And it wasn't my family to their credit. They were fine with it.

Starting point is 00:09:58 So it wasn't a rebellion against them or anything like that. They were fine with it. I don't think they loved it. But. Yeah, dad was a physicist at MIT. Yes. So, he was cool with your green hair when you're rebellion. That's just the way of life. He was fine with the green hair, but I think in some ways, maybe they had to be fine with it, because I didn't cause problems otherwise, and I got good grades in school. I was a very low maintenance child, I think, even with a green hair. So Hunter Estamson wrote a lot of good stuff. Here's a lot

Starting point is 00:10:37 of just brilliant quotes, a lot of brilliant lines. So one of the ones I love is life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and wopper's of body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke thoroughly used up, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming, wow, what a ride. What do you think about that? Is that good life advice from 100 Stompson? I think so. I think he followed it, right? Somewhere I heard recently what he consumed in a day.

Starting point is 00:11:16 Yeah. And it was kind of astonishing. It's funny, when I was in college, there were always really interesting people coming through speakers and whatnot and I attended to not go to events and whatnot. But in the four years I was there, I mean, really interesting people came through and gave talks. You know, I don't know, just a lot of famous people and but then one day Hunter S. Thompson came to speak and that was the only one I attended. Oh wow. There was the only interesting person who came to speak on the campus that I attended was Hunter S. Thompson. And then he had a, you know, he had a glass of whatever it was, whiskey. And I don't remember a whole lot about it, but it was entertaining.

Starting point is 00:11:58 And yeah, I mean, later in his life, he started making less and less sense, but he was still somehow, like like embodying the crazy that he represented throughout his life, the boldness, the fearlessness, the wildness, all that kind of stuff. And we'll talk about Johnny Depp a little bit too. Funny enough, there's like a echo. Obviously, he Johnny Depp played him or he starred in field and loading and they hung out together and it just seemed to somehow like the universe arrives in these two individuals.

Starting point is 00:12:26 They're both madmen in different kind of ways. So you also told me that Leon the professional is one of your favorite films. It's also the reason you named your dog Leon. So what do you find beautiful and powerful about this film? I've watched it a bunch of times but it's been a while since I've watched it. So for people who haven't watched it, there's a guy named Leon played by John and O. There's a young girl, I don't know, 13, 14, Matilda played by Natalie Portman. And she's abused.

Starting point is 00:13:03 She has a really hard life. Her parents are spoiler alert, murdered and then she finds protection under this fella Leon who also happens to be a professional assassin. also happens to be a professional assassin. And he is also kind of a forest-combed type character. Like he's a really simple human. He almost, he seems to be like the immature one or like rather the one who is young and she seems to have a wisdom far beyond her age

Starting point is 00:13:40 because of the hard life she had to live through. And then they're here huddling together from the cruelty of the world and finding connection. Yeah, I think it's one of those films where there's so many interesting things about it, but I'm sure one of them is just the contradiction of him being a caring person

Starting point is 00:14:02 and reluctant to get attached to her. He tries to, I think he knows, he's very reluctant to get attached to her. He tries to, I think he knows, he's very reluctant to get attached to her in the beginning. And so you see all of his humanity, but yet he's also an assassin that kills people. So that's interesting. And I think probably a psychoanalyst would have a field day with why I like that money so much.

Starting point is 00:14:25 And I haven't gone there myself, but there's something I think about. She, even in a brief part, that depicts her in the beginning, it seems clear that she's sort of out of place in her family. And then, yeah, there's all kinds of interesting things about their relationship along the way What I like about that movie and I had to think about it recently because I have read stuff about it that bothered me Or it bothered me the fact that I haven't really thought about it before For people haven't watched the movie so here's a young underage girl who kind of comes on to them First of all, I think she actually just doesn't know what

Starting point is 00:15:11 Like familial love is so this is the only way she knows how to express love. That's one and two is You know a lot of bad people in this world would take advantage of that right and the fact that she finally met a human being who doesn't and is just there to protect her. That's a real sort of, I don't know, a powerful statement of what it means to be sort of like a father figure, I suppose, a protector. So that to me, I love the idea of being sort of the protector.

Starting point is 00:15:54 That there's something like something worthwhile in this world to protect, amidst all the cruelty that's all around. So that's a beautiful kind of. You're basically saving this young humans or you're repairing this young humans path to love, to real love in life because that idea of love was destroyed for her. Just family, everything is, everything is sort of, everything around is broken and he's kind of repairing it by reestablishing what that kind of love can be. I don't know. And the plant, they saved the plant also. Well, there's also just the simple, the simplicity of the film, just some

Starting point is 00:16:46 of a cinematic perspective is beautiful. The music, the way it looks, the minimalism. Even the violence was beautiful. Yeah, violence. It was over the top and also the bad guy, the bad cop played by Gary Oldman. He was amazing. I think he was listening to Beethoven or something like that. And he'd take some sort of pills and drugs and some kind. So there was a kind of like a, like, it's part of the orchestra. Like the violence was part of some kind of musical creation. Yeah, it's interesting because I turn away from violence or films usually that have

Starting point is 00:17:28 violence or TV or anything that has that sort of element to it except in certain cases where where the violence is beautiful. Yeah, yeah, or did you see the movie True Romance? Yes, that's my second favorite movie. Okay, that's probably my favorite movie. Oh, well interesting, that's my second favorite movie. That's a more simple kind of love, but also with the violence that is beautiful. As you could say.

Starting point is 00:18:00 Yeah, and my favorite scene is the one with Patricia Arquette and James Gandalfini. Oh yeah, where she does a shotgun involved. Yeah. Yeah. And then it actually makes me cry every time I see it. For some reason. So for people who haven't seen the film, I think, I think he's actually hitting her or like there's blood and violence and so on. Oh yeah. Oh, there's a lot of violence. And then he throws her into the glass, the shower thing and she's all cut up and beat up and.

Starting point is 00:18:42 Only and she laughs. Yeah, there's just so much passion in it. She knows she's gonna, or in that moment, she knows or thinks she knows that she's gonna die anyway. Yeah. Because she knows he's gonna kill her. So she kind of gives it her, gives it all she has. But she also just has guts, she's not afraid.

Starting point is 00:19:03 Yeah, well, and also she's You know she loves Clarence Yeah, the love comes through through that violence. Yeah, yeah, just like Clarence her fella in that film Has the same kind of thing when he visits it was Gary oldman again. It was Gary oldman again That's right. Yeah, it was Gary Oldman again. It was Gary Oldman again. That's right. The Pimp. Looking very different. Direct soul. Direct soul. Yeah. Yeah. And he's also fearless. And that interaction saying she's not mine. It's interesting. That movie is so romantic. And a happy ending spoiler alert. That's what I like about it too. Because I feel like some movies

Starting point is 00:19:40 should come with. I don't want to watch a movie if it's going to be devastating usually unless it's worthwhile in some other way but I'm kind of sensitive and I don't want. I don't like movies that have a terrible ending. I mean, there's a book I read because it got so many good reviews and the very last scene, the woman steps in front of a train and it was like, last scene, the woman steps in front of a train and it was like, so I'm partial to movies with happy endings. Leon ends with loss. Leon the movie. Right, but it's still inspiring. Love persists in some kind of form. Yeah. And the plant. And the plant. Okay, sure, sure. Dr. Romas, this is one of the, I mean, it's probably unhealthy. And you've seen it's just amazing.

Starting point is 00:20:31 You're so cool. Is that what Noah was she just kind of looks at Clarence and her son and child or whatever and she's saying, you're so cool. You're so cool. Yeah. That's love. I just thought that movie has so much in it, because it's funny, and there's so many, so many good actors in that film.

Starting point is 00:20:55 And Brad Pitt plays in that film, a pivotal role of pot head on couch. Yeah, they're all so good and funny, and Michael Rappaport and yeah, and even Val Kilmer people don't realize he's in the movie because he doesn't look like himself. Um, wait, what what did Val Kilmer? Val Kilmer's in the very end. It's, um, you know, when he's there's like the Elvis sitting there, walking to him in the end. Yeah. That's Val Kilmer. Yeah, you don't notice it unless you somehow either are very

Starting point is 00:21:28 perceptive or noticed it in the credits. Yeah. And Quentin Tarantino wrote the film, I think. Yes. Which is interesting. Directed by Tony Scott. And the music is beautiful too. And Christopher Walken and Dennis Hopper. Dennis Hopper. Dennis Hopper plays Clarence's dad and they have this very racist sounding scene but the big important aspect of that scene is it's a father willing to die to protect the sun. I mean, it's so much so much beautiful violence in that. There is. There is. I love that film so much.

Starting point is 00:22:11 And she's at prostitute or not really part time, short time. No, it was her first time. First time. Yeah. OK. And he saved her. And my third favorite film has no violence whatsoever.

Starting point is 00:22:29 What's your third film? A room with a view. I feel like she'd like it. It's um, I forget the author. It's a book and I read the book much later. But it's Helena Bonham Carter. And Daniel Day Lewis is in it and Julian Sands. Daniel Day Lewis is a fascinating character.

Starting point is 00:22:56 He's amazing in his film because he plays, he's very funny, he sort of plays a, he's a comical character, which is unlike most of what he does, I think. I don't watch a ton of movies, so. But yeah, he played his his role as funny. Well, that's a that's a heck of a top three. You brought me some books, some bread in books. Yeah. Some Russian bread, Russian inspired bread. Yeah, I mean, it's Latvian, but it's similar to...

Starting point is 00:23:29 Close enough. Similar to what's made in Russia, and it's made at Russian bakery in one place. Well, your dad is from, right? My dad is from Latvia, yeah. So you got me some books. Beautiful ruins. Yeah, and if you never read them, who cares? That's totally fine.

Starting point is 00:23:44 You know, people give you books, and then you feel like them who cares, that's totally fine. You know, people give you books and then you feel like you just, you're, you sort of feel like. I see this as we'll, we'll talk about this. This is part therapy session. I don't feel the need to, to satisfy people's happiness. That's a good thing. Okay, so, but they, it could also be a, um, an opportunity to experience something I never otherwise would have. So beautiful ruins.

Starting point is 00:24:06 It's a book that may be laugh and cry and it's just a happy story. And for some reason, I don't know exactly why, but for some reason, when you asked me to comment, it just I thought, oh, I'm going to bring a copy of that book. That's, you just felt it came, a voice told you. Yeah. So there's others darkness visible. These are more... Memoir of madness, compelling, harrowing, a vivid portrait of a debilitating disorder

Starting point is 00:24:34 that offers the solace of shared experience in New York Times. This is... There's a little bit about this book that reminds me of the Carl Dyseroth book because he writes about his own condition. I mean, he's an amazing writer, so he writes about it in this beautiful way and oddly enough, in some ways it's kind of delightful. So it's not at all a depressing book, at least I didn't find it depressing at all. I don't think it is. But he writes about his own experience with depression in such a beautiful way.

Starting point is 00:25:13 My own copy is full of underlines. I would love that copy too. I would love to look into the underlines and the books with notes. Those little secrets that people leave traces. The part of why I like paper books is because I tend to underline like crazy. The Carl Dicer-Huth book is full of underlines too. Why do the same thing on Kindle, but then you can actually more effectively go back to the things you've underlined because you highlight and so on. But in fact, when you're underlined in paper books, you sometimes never go back, which

Starting point is 00:25:51 is always making it sad to the book to the things you've underlined. In the paper books? In the paper books. Oh, I do. I go back. Yeah, I go back a lot. Do you wonder what the heck you were thinking about when you wrote something? No.

Starting point is 00:26:03 Well, sometimes I underline things that are, well, also what I do is I have an at-home file and ever note of transcribed quotes from books, ones that I want to save. So I might underline a lot of things in a book and then maybe like a third of them, I want to write them down somewhere. So I write those down. And I think even the time it takes to transcribe it is somehow worthwhile. It's like searing it in your brain and You're reliving the memory having it read it the first time

Starting point is 00:26:33 Yeah, and then sometimes I'll pick up books. I even And sometimes I just underlined sentences that are it's not the content of the sentence It's more that it's just a beautifully written sentence or like a particularly apt metaphor or something that's really nice. And I like paper books too because I bought beautiful ruins. I would have never heard of it. I don't think except one of my favorite things is to go to used bookstores. Actually, Goodwill sometimes has really good big book selections, depending on the area

Starting point is 00:27:06 where you go. Sometimes you find a lot of treasures there. And what ends up happening a lot is I end up buying books that I know sometimes also because I lost all my belongings at one point. So all very often buy books that I've already read just to have them. And but then what always ends up happening is I'll find... There'll be a couple of books that I buy that I've never heard of the author. I don't really know anything about... I don't know anything about the book at all, but something drew me to it. And what I like about that is you're buying... You're buying used books, so it costs a dollar or two. So if you made a mistake, like no big deal, who cares? So? But every time I come back with a book haul,

Starting point is 00:27:46 there's usually at least one gem that I end up loving. And I'm so glad that I read it. And beautiful ruins was that book for me. And I was drawn to it because of the cover art. I just loved the cover and the colors. And then I picked it up and read the back and I bought it. And I also feel bad sometimes buying used books when the author is still alive

Starting point is 00:28:09 because I feel like if you write a book, you should get the royalties. So. But you get to live with that regret. Well, also, I mean, I'll usually end up putting a picture of Leon reading the book online and then other people buy it and read it. And so I feel like I've made up for it. I've made up for depriving him of the royalties.

Starting point is 00:28:30 I used to live in Cambridge, Massachusetts. I know it well. I used to hang out of the pit in Harvard Square with my green and blue hair when I was very... ways you young to be doing that, but myself. And there's a guy that I think has been there for a long time, sort of between Kendall and Central, that would just lay out these books and sell them. And I always loved that guy. Whoever he was, had a cool hat, he's an older gentleman,

Starting point is 00:29:00 and you could just tell he's seen some things. I don't know who he is. I always wanted to actually, like, talk to him for a long time, but I was too afraid, maybe because I wouldn't be able to handle what he had to tell me. I didn't, because I almost wanted to maintain the innocence of just, okay, here's this guy, but he was so, every time you were asking a question about a book,

Starting point is 00:29:21 first of all, he's read all of them. Oh, that's interesting. Which means he's traveled quite a few places inside these worlds. And then you would tell him, I would look at a book, right? And you just, he would catch you being curious about it. And then he would walk up to you. And then he would start talking about the book. And he would always forget that you were there. He's almost like, he's not trying to sell you the books. Part talking to himself.

Starting point is 00:29:46 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like almost like a ex-girlfriend he's visiting to this book or something. Did you buy books from him? Yeah, yeah, definitely. But the experience of just being there, because he lays them out and people actually that watch or listen to this,

Starting point is 00:30:02 probably will be able to tell me what his name is, because I'd love to find that again I'm sure he's still there. Maybe I'll have him on the podcast. I would 100% will But it's it's almost terrifying I'm not sure I can handle because he's been through some things. I'm not sure if he's homeless or or just looks like it Yep, that's sometimes a thing and Some of my favorite people either are homeless or look like it. So, okay, what's the third one? The confession of a sociopath by me, Thomas, a life spent hiding in plain sight. It's a book I recommend a lot, because

Starting point is 00:30:41 I've read a lot about sociopathy and I've read all the books by psychologists and and this one's written by a woman who understands herself that she is a sociopath and so it's beautifully written but I learned I learned more from that book than from any other book and I think I thought about a long time ago I think a lot of conversations you've talked a lot about good and evil and you know whether everybody's really good or some people are not good. And I think sociopathy is something that I think the world needs to understand much better. And so that that book helped me understand a lot. And it's beautifully written and she

Starting point is 00:31:24 tackles all the really interesting moral questions. Like, what if we were able to definitively diagnose people in some way, like there was a, you could immediately identify who's a full-blown sociopath. And then what is a society would you do with them? Because in most cases, you know, they're just going to cause destruction and pain and harm and or potentially rise to power and become president or something. So I just found that book fascinating. So I just found that book fascinating. And we'll return to this idea because it's fascinating.

Starting point is 00:32:09 We'll return to human psychology and human nature. But let's go through the timeline of your life. Let's take a stroll. So you wrote that the documentary about you called Bad Vegan, Fame, Fraud, Fugitives is not a documentary. You got some things right, some things wrong, and some were quote disturbingly misleading. So let's go through and get things right today. First can I give you a world one summary?

Starting point is 00:32:42 The way I understand it. And also for context of people so 2004 you Matthew Kenny and Jeffrey Chaudero Open pure foods and wine in New York City that is say their names correctly pure food and wine. No there's Well, yeah, Matthew Kenny Jeffrey Chauder. Yeah. Yeah. So, and I'll ask you about what it takes to launch and run a restaurant in New York City.

Starting point is 00:33:12 That's a fascinating story in itself. So, it's an upscale raw food restaurant. All right. That's 2004. 2007, you open one lucky duck juice and takeaway. And second and third locations in 2009 and 14. All of those things close in 2016, 15, 16, 15 and 16. Okay. All right. 2009, Jeffree Lentz, you're $2.1 million to buy the business outright. And Matthew is out. Matthew was out earlier than that and then time passed, time passed.

Starting point is 00:33:49 And I had what was complicated is I had started the one lucky duck brand on my own. At first, it was a dot com that was doing like delivery. It was a it was a dot com where people could order ingredients and things and all of the products that we made and packaged. So we made a bunch of cookies and snacks and things that were. I think different and if I may say so myself better than other. Strong words products. I'll talk about the cookies.

Starting point is 00:34:19 But I feel like I can brag about our food and products because. I wasn't oh you know a few recipes recipes products because I wasn't, oh, you know, a few recipes early on I came up with, but it was the people that worked with me that created really good recipes and products. And I was just kind of there curating it all orping to get it out there. What was your favorite thing that you've created? Maybe yourself eat and then not you created, but this whole All of these efforts have created in terms of meal like you said cookies. What are we talking about here? That's a hard question I mean, it's just okay not the favor, but like something that pops into memory that brought you joy

Starting point is 00:35:04 the Malamar Everybody. The Malomar. Everybody loved the Malomar. So very often we made raw vegan versions of things that people are familiar with. So it was, I think it was pecans. It was like a salty cookie made with nuts and then covered in chocolate. And then there's a big blob of coconut cream. I love coconut. Which it didn't taste coconut-y.

Starting point is 00:35:30 Our ice cream was made with the coconut. Also, it's like the meat from coconuts, pureed. And then there's some soaked cashews in there. But anyway, it was a blob of vanilla flavored cream, kind of like a, you know, like a healthy natural version of fluff. I don't know if you're familiar with fluff. Basically, everything award you say I'm not familiar with, you should see my diet. I don't. It's like steak and vegetables.

Starting point is 00:35:53 A fluff is like a thing that I remember it from my childhood, like peanut butter and fluff is a ridiculously delicious comedy. Is it fluffy or is it not? It's like a marshmallow. It's basically like, like if you soften the marshmallows and made it into a luxurious, amazing, good, and then put it in a jar. Okay. And then it's just, it's just, it's spreadable marshmallows kind of. Oh, I see. I think that's, yeah. So spreadable marshmallows got it. Yeah. So there's a big blob of it. I didn't know that existed. That's a thing. Fluff. Fluff. Fluff. I know. Does everyone do people know about this? Oh, yeah, everybody know. People, I mean, I think so. People know about fluff. See, I think I went, I took the road less

Starting point is 00:36:37 traveled by, you know, I went the peanut butter and the teller road in terms of spreadable things. Nutella is like the chocolate version and then fluff is like the vanilla equivalent sort of. But I think commercial fluff that you buy in the store is just like sugar and whatever else they put in there. Anyway, it's not actually fluffy. It's kind of fluffy, but it's wet. Because Nutella is not fluffy. Yeah, it's, so it's like Nutella if you whipped it and then kind of got it a little bit like a little bit aerated. Okay, so it's a bit more fluffy. So fluff was a part of the formula here. So it's fluffy. But so the coconut cream that we made was like a healthy version of fluff. Kind of. Except it would, you know, you could make a quenelle, like a little scoop of it, and it would stay in that form. Malomars were refrigerated, and then there's like chocolate

Starting point is 00:37:42 jizzled over that. So it had that like salty, sweet thing going on. That was probably my favorite. That's a dessert. Yeah, it was like a dessert snack. It wasn't as you wouldn't order it on the restaurant menu, but in the takeaway, you could get them, or sometimes some people would get them shipped on dry ice and pay a lot of money, like a lot of money to have them shipped

Starting point is 00:38:06 on dry ice. People are funny. I know. I kind of want to like name drop because it was Tom Brady's to order them. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, they would order those shipped on ice to Boston. Oh, yeah. Continuing on in 2011, you meet Anthony Stranges on Twitter and then in real life also around this time I think before you got your rescue dog a pit bull named Leon Yeah, 2011 2010. Do you remember? It was September 2010 so because I think he was born roughly around March I gave him a designated birthday of March 10, 2010.

Starting point is 00:38:48 Why is that? Why, why March 10? I wrote about the story of adopting him on my website a long time ago, and then I reposted it here on my current website. And what happened, I got weirdly obsessed with Leon before he was Leon. He was a dog and a shelter named Quinn. And I couldn't stop thinking about him and the him specifically, him specifically, he saw him and there's something very special about him. I was trying to convince somebody else to adopt a dog. So and I,

Starting point is 00:39:18 Alec Baldwin. Yeah. And it didn't occur to me that I like how you didn't name drop him, but you know, I'm talking for you. I like how you didn't name drop ham but you niche drop time for it. I like it. Um, so I was trying to convince him to get a dog because I thought, you know, he should have a dog. I saw Leon's picture and just got weirdly obsessed with it in a way that I couldn't really explain. And I'm I was laying in bed one night and thinking, I

Starting point is 00:39:43 just couldn't stop thinking about him. The dog and the paper were the description and the shelter. Bio said that he was roughly five months old or however, whatever it gave us his age, I went back and it would have been March 20. It would have been March of that year that he was born. And I had a cat that I was particularly attached to I had two cats brother and sister But the boy cat we had sort of like a something that felt like a you know like we'd look at each other and Like there was something there. I don't know what it was but

Starting point is 00:40:19 And in fact when he got sick I I knew it before he even had any symptoms It was like something in the way that he looked at me. I knew something was wrong. And then, uh, Was it friendship? Was it like, uh, was there a power dynamic? Cats seem to not really give a fuck. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:40:38 They seem to dismiss you. Usually, yeah, your your entire worth is a human being. Right. In a single look. Was that there or? He was more dog like, he would occasionally fetch like this little styrofoam thing I had. He would fetch it and bring it back. And he was friendly. And you know, if somebody came over, he would jump in their lap. He was less standoffish than most cats. But there was just something about the way he

Starting point is 00:41:07 would look at me. I don't know. Maybe probably in his mind, he's just a cat. I give him food. Whereas in my mind, it's some kind of, you know, great soul connection. But not in his- Great, a great long-running romance. Not in his kitty mind, but either way. So he died in March. And I thought, so I sort of concocted this. I just thought, you know, that, well, if he died and he died on March 10th. And so I thought, well, maybe Leon was born that same day. And that's why, that's why I'm so drawn to him. I don't know. Oh, that that made okay that makes sense. But then you just felt like it's sort of when you saw him, you just like there's something. It was his picture. Yeah. Oh, the picture and you were drawn

Starting point is 00:41:56 something about the personality and the eyes. It was something about his picture. I don't know what it was. And and everybody at the time was like, what are you thinking? Why would you get a dog? You can't, you know, can't even take care of yourself. You're overworked and busy. And why would you get a five-month-old pit bull mix? You know, why not get an older dog that's easier to take care of? And for me, it was like, I don't want any dog. I don't want

Starting point is 00:42:26 my intention isn't to get a dog, but there's something about this dog that I have to get. And so, I went to see him. And then I had already filled out an application. It was just, I went to see him. And then I, it was the afternoon. and I sort of decided in my head like, all right, I'm coming back to get him, I have to. And so the next morning I got on the subway, I went back to get him and I was crying on the subway. And I remember thinking that people, I don't like crying in public. I cry a lot, but I don't like crying in front of other people.

Starting point is 00:43:01 And I love it. I thought people on the train looking at me probably think that, you know, I just somebody died or. Sorry, you're crying on the way there on the way back. On the way there to get him. Yeah. And I don't know why I was crying. It was just something about it was overwhelming. So tears of happiness or tears of something. Something. Yeah. I think tears are or tears of something. Something. Yeah, I think tears are overwhelming. I know I'm jumping off, but there was some, I don't know, I'm trying to, was it in your conversation

Starting point is 00:43:34 or the book Carl Dyseroff talks about tears of joy and trying to explain them. And he said something about how it was like about, you know, because tears of sadness could be understood in a having like an evolutionary purpose, but wide tears of joy. And I think he said it was something about like hope that could be like lost. So if you cried at a wedding, it might be like you're crying because their love is beautiful and you're crying because they could get hit by a bus tomorrow or something.

Starting point is 00:44:09 You know, like it had something to do with that. And I thought, um, but I thought, to me, it feels like overwhelmed. Because then how would that explain music? Because music will make me cry a lot. No, because it's anything beautiful, like love. You realize you're going to have, it's going to be over one day. Or it's just overwhelming. It could be overwhelming.

Starting point is 00:44:32 I think it's just overwhelming. But if you had to explain, like one way to explain it, as you're saying, is it's so awesome that it breaks your heart that it's going to be over. This feeling is going to be over. The, either it's the song or the person, you're going to lose them one day. Or it's normal. But even when you're just watching something that this is completely ridiculous, but I remember one time I probably was hormonal or something, but it was like an episode of Family Feud years ago. And the, the family, oh no, wheel of fortune.

Starting point is 00:45:08 It was wheel of fortune. And some family like won all this money. And they were so happy. Like it just, they were so happy. They probably needed the money or something. And I started crying. And I'm thinking, why am I crying? But I think it's just, I think it's just like an overwhelming,

Starting point is 00:45:22 I think it's overwhelming in some way. And crying, like crying, because crying in some way. On the surface. On the surface. Because crying is a relief. Like you feel better after you cry. But that's not, doesn't explain the crying. You feel better after you cry. And you're saying it's overwhelming,

Starting point is 00:45:37 but that's on the surface. The question is, what's going on underneath? That's the young, young shadow. And I don't think neither you or I can answer that question. But there's something going on underneath. That's the young, young shadow. And I don't think neither you are. I can answer that question. But there's something going on. Right. There's probably something that touches you in some specific way. Yeah. And so you were crying on the subway. So I was crying in the subway. It's very, it's very New York thing to do. Yeah. I, well, that's one of the things I love about New York is people, you can be weird and do strange

Starting point is 00:46:05 things and nobody's going to look at you strangely or. The fascinating thing about New York is super crowded and yet you can still feel super alone. But also energized because a lot of other things in places will make me feel depleted, but there's something about the energy of New York specifically that feels energizing. I mean, everybody is going up about their day, excited for a future they're building and so on, and that could be energy. Sure, sure.

Starting point is 00:46:40 It could be overwhelming though. It can be. Yeah. I mean, also depending on what neighborhood. I'm just talking about the subway. Right. Yeah. And then the musicians, I love New York.

Starting point is 00:46:52 New York at as best as a special place. I've never lived, but every time I visit, it's so many characters, so many fascinating people. Yeah. And then there's a bunch of people always crying on the subway. And you are one of those people. I was one of those people one day. Yeah. So you got to be friends with some busking musicians, like the guys that just play out on the street. These two young guys playing guitar. And I felt like

Starting point is 00:47:15 it was one of those moments where it was like candid camera because nobody was paying attention. And I thought it was like, I was so beautiful. I may have cried or almost cried. But anyway, I ended up becoming friends with them and helping them out in some ways. And I knew I was like, well, they're going to do really well. And now they're like playing large places. And it's kind of fun to watch via Instagram. They're going on tour in Europe.

Starting point is 00:47:44 And they were these two scrappy guys. Well, now it's just one of the guys. But they had like no money, no where to live, nothing. And another. And they didn't quit. They're on tour. No. Persisted.

Starting point is 00:47:59 That's cool. Yeah, exactly. So, but I cried on the subway and I got there and he was there and I adopted him. But it just felt very profoundly like a force that was beyond me. Like I couldn't not get him. So he was the same person as he was in the picture? Like, meaning in terms of like something, like pulling you towards them, like something. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:48:27 When I first met him the day before, he was really distracted, which I think is, you know, he has a puppy that spends most of his day in a cage, which is not natural. So when I think, they let me take him for a walk and he was kind of, you know, distracted in all of the place. But then when we put him back in the cage, he stood all day down and looked at me and I looked back at him and of course I imagined all kinds of, I just looked at him and I thought alright, I'm, don't worry, I'm coming back to get you. Like I'll get you.

Starting point is 00:48:59 So yeah, it just, it felt like, it felt like something that I had no choice that I had to do. And that was the beginning of a 12-year journey together. An ongoing one. So I wrote about these things on my website and I think it was among the many things that was later weaponized by Anthony Stranges. Oh, the fact that something opened up about it. Yeah, and also just, it's not like I believe that he was, you know, that I was just expressing my feelings about how I felt going to get him that there was something about

Starting point is 00:49:42 Leon, specifically, that I it was like I felt like I had to get him that there was something about Leon, specifically, that I, it was like, I felt like I had to get him. So, um, is there words you can put to your connection with Leon? Like, is it love? Is it friendship? Is it some kind of, like, what is it? Or, or are we getting to the crying and being overwhelmed? Something you just can't put words to.

Starting point is 00:50:08 Yeah, it's probably something that's hard to put words to. Kind of like, I sort of feel like love being something that's hard to define is part of the definition of love. The fact that you can't define it. You know, the one we define it, you're no longer talking about love. Sort of something like that. So, well, my definition of love is whatever's going on in true romance. I don't know. Let me fly through the timeline before we get to any of the interesting details. So in 2011, you meet Anthony Strangis in 2012, you get married,

Starting point is 00:50:52 2015, the staff walk out due to failure to pay from the two restaurants. It reopens in April of 2015 and July of that year. There's another walkout and so on. There's all this kind of stuff. It's confusing timeline. Well, it's not, to me, that's not even, the point is in 2015, there's chaos happening.

Starting point is 00:51:16 Okay. 2016 in the spring, pure foods and wine closes. Closed in 2015. 2015. Okay. There's some factual stuff that's not, yeah, maybe correct, to me, it's not that important to me. The spirit of the thing is important.

Starting point is 00:51:34 Okay. May 12, 2016, you and your then husband, Anthony Stranges, were arrested after he ordered pizza using his real name. Okay. In May 2017, you pleaded guilty to stealing more than $2 million from investors and scheming to defraud as well as this is from Wikipedia. Yeah, they're wrong. Well, let me just finish reading it and then you tell me why it's wrong. In May 2017, you pleaded guilty to stealing more than two million dollars from investors and scheming to defraud as well as criminal tax fraud charges. Why is it what could be there wrong and how dare you? Well, it's about, I mean, I did plead guilty to those things which I had to, oh, I was, I got a jury dirty duty summons

Starting point is 00:52:22 and I had to fill out like what charges I played guilty to and I had to go online and look it up because I didn't really remember which is I thought that was interesting. I had to go look it up but- Actually let me finish the time because there's one more point. March 16th, 2022, Bad Vegan Documentity comes out where you're interviewed, they tell the story, some stuff is true, some time, some is not, some is the sternum and misleading as you said. Okay, timeline over. Anyway, what's wrong with the, how would you elaborate onto the

Starting point is 00:53:00 you pleading guilty for $2 million stealing. So a lot of people plead guilty when they're for reasons other than they're actually guilty. So you know, it's even right now, if I knew that I was going to have to spend four months or three and a half at Rikers, and I was thinking about this recently. And even if I knew that I'd be acquitted at the end of a trial, I very likely would have just taken the four months because the stress of going through a trial but in particular be incredibly stressful not knowing the outcome.

Starting point is 00:53:43 And then money and expense I didn't have. And so, you know, people plead guilty all the time, even if they don't think that that they should. And my situation was so complicated and hard to understand that it just was the easier thing to do. But also I just was kind of going on the advice of lawyers. And the easier thing to do. But also, I just was kind of going on the advice of lawyers. So the choice, just to understand, was to plead guilty or to go through a lengthy trial. And that trial would stretch a long time and it would be extremely stressful and extremely expensive because you have to pay the lawyers. Right. And I didn't have anything. Right. And so a lot of people in that situation might choose to plead guilty. And so that doesn't necessarily mean the full

Starting point is 00:54:36 heaviness of that statement of guilt. Right. And I think people plead guilty all the time in situations where they're being threatened with, like a heavy sentence, and they sort of feel like they have no choice. But that's kind of part of a lot of things that are messed up about the system overall that didn't necessarily apply in my case. So we'll talk about, to what degree you're guilty and what that even means. Yeah. Yeah. and what that even means. Yeah, because it depends on intention, I think.

Starting point is 00:55:09 Yeah, yeah, but then the word intention also means a lot of things like the word love. That's true. All right. So the restaurant closed the first time when I was away and told to be off communication. And then I, I am to me. Yes. And then he told you not to talk to anybody. He told me not to like open email or look at my phone or whatever. And so when I came back and had to get it reopened, which seemed like an unbelievably difficult task and I was kind of shocked that I was able to pull it off,

Starting point is 00:55:57 I worked incredibly hard to get it reopened. And because that placement meant everything to me. And so I just, like, I just had to get it reopened. But you surrounded by people that were just ingrate you at that time? Well, the staff and all that. Yeah, but most of them came back. A lot of them came back. I think what was so unbelievably painful about that whole time was like not being able to tell anybody what was so unbelievably painful about that whole time was like not being able to tell anybody what was really going on. And in a sense, not really knowing what was going on myself,

Starting point is 00:56:31 but not being able to, like having to pretend all the time was just like. So you didn't really tell anybody about Anthony about him and what was really going on. And part because I didn't really understand what was going on. So what I did was I raised money to reopen the restaurant. And I think I raised something like eight, maybe like 900 grand. And probably 90% of that went to reopen the restaurant. And I even made two sales tax payments right before we disappeared. So it just sort of logically seemed like, so I didn't, it's not like all of this money

Starting point is 00:57:12 it was taken and then he and I ran off together with a whole bunch of money. It was like I raised a bunch of money to reopen the restaurant, you know, because I wanted the restaurant to exist again. I wanted to run it. I wanted to reopen the restaurant. Most of that money went to reopen the restaurant. Then I disappeared. The timeline gets a bit wonky.

Starting point is 00:57:43 This impression was created that we ran off with a whole bunch of money and we didn't. So, you know, if I wanted to be a criminal and steal a bunch of money, why would I have put it all back into the restaurant and reopened it? And then also made to $10,000 sales tax payments that I didn't, you know. $10,000 sales tax payments that I didn't, you know, and I also repaid You know $10,000 of another loan. I'm you know, I was making repayments and stuff and then boom I disappear. So as your mind Going through a roller coaster here. So could there been multiple use there? So one one mind is like I love this restaurant I'm going to reopen it. I'm this chef business owner, this person. And the other is a human that's in this

Starting point is 00:58:34 complicated love affair. It was not love affair. Okay. These are just words. How can I? Okay, what I don't want to, I say that lightly, but also not because love can make us do dark things. And you can say that's not love, but okay. The thing that traps us, the things that pulls us into a connection with another human being, that's love, even when it's abusive and dark and toxic and all those kinds of things. In some cases, I think, like if it's voluntary, but in other cases, somebody pulls you in. So it's not like you're drawn towards them, they pull you in.

Starting point is 00:59:20 To just clarify, even when it's not physical, when the poll is with words, so it's emotional. Yeah. Okay. Where is your mind when you raise eight to $900,000 to open the restaurant, working your ass off to open this thing, okay? Making payments, and then all of a sudden disappearing. Where was your mind? If you had a lengthy conversation, we'll call Dice Roth in privacy.

Starting point is 00:59:53 What would you be telling him as your therapist? I would probably be asking him questions. No, okay, no. Get the call as part of this. Well, and actually, I have more questions for Andrew Heberman because, you know, I've had to investigate all of these things myself like dissociation. And even there's a psychologist who believes that he must have used neuro-linguistic programming on me, which is something that Keith Raynary from the next him called, he was known to have used that with people. And I think

Starting point is 01:00:28 neuro linguistic programming is kind of the same as like a sort of like hypnotism. The only reason I know about what NLP is is because in what I do, there's something called natural language processing, artificial intelligence stuff. So it has the same like three letters. Right. What was the other thing that NLP Neural and Gwistik program? Neural and Gwistik program.

Starting point is 01:00:51 Programming. Yeah. Anyway. All right. Well, we talked about Andrew, my friend Andrew human, we're not flying and you definitely, you should do a podcast with him. He's a, he's a fascinating, he's such a brilliant and kind human being. I definitely worth talking to. Yeah, I've listened to a lot of his podcast. And you said that you listened to a lot of his instructions on getting light in the morning or whatever during the day. It's very important for your mental, like there's all these kinds of studies. It's good for your mind, for your...

Starting point is 01:01:22 Oh, and also the other thing that he got me to do is to try to delay having coffee. So instead of having coffee right when you wake up, I always drink a lot of water first. But then instead of having coffee right away, if you wait an hour or an hour and a half or two hours, then your body is able to naturally do something that drinking coffee too soon would sort of blunt that. So then you'll be more tired in the afternoon. So if you wait an hour and a half or two hours or as long, you know, before you have your first cup of coffee, then you won't be as tired in the afternoon. Interesting.

Starting point is 01:01:56 There's a lot of... Does it work? Yes. One coffee addict talking to another coffee addict. Yes, it works. And so I try to get up and do other things first, before I have coffee. I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of I'm not a fan of the I'm not a fan of I'm not a fan of I'm not a fan of I'm not a fan of I'm not a fan of I'm not a fan of I'm not a fan of I'm not a fan of I'm not a fan of I'm not a a fan of I'm not a fan of I'm not a a fan of I'm not a fan of I'm not a a fan of I'm not a a fan of I'm not a a fan of I'm not to have an apartment that had a little deck or something where I could

Starting point is 01:02:25 just step outside because when you live in an apartment, you kind of have to like go all the way outside and then there's people everywhere. And so to get that early morning light, isn't that hard to do when you're... Are people good for your bad for you? What does Andrew Humor say about that? I'm just kidding, it's a joke. Okay, so moving back to words your mind that led you to disappear to what you guys go to Vegas first and then Tennessee. No, I kind of referred to it as like the road trip from hell. It's a very hunter's thumps in a way to describe it. It's back. You went back to the back country. Maybe it was sort of hunter's thumps and ask except without actual drugs.

Starting point is 01:03:06 That was one of the first questions my father asked me, was it drugs and I wished that I could have said yes, because I didn't know how to explain what had happened. But he took me away involuntarily, except of course he wasn't holding a gun to my head, but all along it was like a metaphorical gun. Was there ever physical abuse? No. What would qualify as sexual abuse, yes, but physically no.

Starting point is 01:03:39 A couple of times we would get into it, slightly physical fights, but he never, I mean, he was big and as large and blabbery as he was, he was, he was also really strong. So sometimes he would like subdue me, but other than that, no, there wasn't physical violence, but a lot of people will say that the psychological violence is, I don't want to diminish physical violence, but some people say that the psychological and emotional violence is more destructive. It's just that the physical violence is easier to identify. It's easier to identify, and it seems kind of more straightforward. Whereas psychological, you know, and you have a bruise on your face or you break a bone and

Starting point is 01:04:27 those things hopefully heal in a visible way. But psychological stuff, you know, you can't easily identify or understand or others can't easily identify it. And then you find yourself crying for no reason at a beautiful song at some point. Yes. And it's that that has to do something happening in the depth of your mind. Okay, so he took you away. But where was the, I mean, where was your mind that was doing both of those things, was able to be taken away, but also was pushing to the flourishing, the reopening and the flourishing

Starting point is 01:05:08 of the restaurant. Well, you know, I wouldn't have reopened the restaurant with, and then knowing I was going to all of a sudden be taken away from it and it was going to get closed again. You know, it was like, why, why would I do that? Why would anybody do that? And one of the things that I tried to do towards the end was, I was trying to get myself off the bank accounts because I didn't want him to be able to get money out of me. And so there was one time when I tried to get one of the investors, we went to the bank together to put her on as a signer and take me off. And because we didn't have the operating agreement, they wouldn't let us do it. So it was like this little snafu. So all of these things are sort of the opposite of criminal intent.

Starting point is 01:05:51 But that's a legal thing. What's it going on in your mind at this time? I don't know. I mean, did you give yourself a chance to just think? give yourself a chance to just think? No, and I think that's part of one of the things that might have saved me or anybody that's pulled into a cult, one of the things that they do is they keep you exhausted, overwhelmed, confused, and afraid. And so you don't have any time to think. So you're just kind of constantly running and you're confused and then things are happening.

Starting point is 01:06:27 That's funny. I have some quotes in my book draft because I listen to a lot of podcasts. I don't know what the logistics are of like crediting a quote from a podcast in a book. But I have a couple. I think it was Andrew Huberman on Joe Rogan said something Andrew Huberman on Joe Rogan said something about if a human or animal, I don't know how he would know, the human or animal is stressed and I'm paraphrasing this horribly, but they're

Starting point is 01:06:58 much more easily prone to be, not prone to, but forced into delusional thinking. And so that quote resonated for me because you know he kept me in this incredibly stressed out, afraid confused state. And then whatever he's sort of planting in my mind, I'm going to be that much more likely to just kind of go along with it. Well, we'll see how this whole journey ends. Let's actually just step back a little bit and just look at the employees of the restaurant and so on. Do you have remorse for what happened, especially from the perspective of the employees and the staff? Yeah. I mean, hurting them was sort of the last thing that I would ever have wanted to do. And in part, I mean, that was financial harm. and in part, I mean, that was financial harm, but I don't know whether it's more important or not, but you know, it was taking a place that was very much like a family to them, and it was as if I

Starting point is 01:07:59 destroyed it. And so I think that because we were so much like a family, it was almost as if like mom went off the deep end and got together with some kuku abusive guy and sort of abandoned them. And they didn't know what was going on and what was happening. So did you regret lying to them? I regret lying to anybody in all of those circumstances, but I wasn't lying. He made me think that everything was going to be reversed and okay, and anybody that money was borrowed from, they would get it back, maybe 10 fold. And so it was this weird situation of from they would get it back, you know, maybe 10 fold. And so it was this weird situation of having like one foot in his reality, and potentially believing the things he was saying, or even over time,

Starting point is 01:08:54 wanting to believe them more and more because the alternative was so, the alternative was worse. The alternative was like, was increasingly a bigger and bigger nightmare. So. So this whole situation where you're constantly giving a money, you're constantly borrowing and borrowing money, will this idea that will be repaid like a hundred X fold? Right. Kind of like.

Starting point is 01:09:19 Yeah. So sort of like lying to somebody because you're planning their surprise party, you think like, well, I'm lying to somebody, but I somebody, but it's because there's a good reason. Yeah. You know, it's sort of, that's not a good example, but... No, but you could have not made it a surprise party and be like, pull them in onto the planning of the party and be honest about, like, everything that's happening, not in a negative way, but like getting in on the fact that, okay, I just need to give money to this guy,

Starting point is 01:09:51 but we'll get, he is a super rich person of some kind and he'll repay. I mean, I wish I, well, because you're holding on to your... I mean, that's part of the torture is that you're isolated and unable to tell anybody. But you're not unable, or you're telling you you're not allowed to say anything to anybody. I mean, you're choosing not to say anything, but it's because of the weight of it, because it's embarrassing to sort of...

Starting point is 01:10:24 Is it embarrassing? it's embarrassing to sort of, is it embarrassing as something? I mean, why do you not tell others? What is that? What's happening to the mind where you don't tell others? I don't know. Part of why the story, everything that happened is hard to summarize and talk about in any concise way is that so much of it

Starting point is 01:10:48 happens in this very slow, slow, slow way. And you know, people always use the whole like frog and boiling water example. So that by the time you realize you're fucked, it's too late. And it, and it seems hard to believe or understand other people because they see where you are or where you ended up. And they think, well, how did you let that happen? Well, I don't know. I would willingly destroyed my life and hurt all the people I care about

Starting point is 01:11:19 and allowed my mother to get hurt. And I wouldn't have ever willingly done that. So something else must have happened and that's the part that's difficult to understand. Let me ask you about another hard question. Do you deserve most or all of the blame for the failure of the business or are others at fault too? Well the business didn't fail. It was doing well. And so it's closing. Closing.

Starting point is 01:11:50 It's like it was destroyed. Who deserves the blame for that? I'm asking from your perspective when you think about it. In the privacy in your mind, are you angry at Anthony or you angry yourself? Both. I think that in the privacy of my own mind and to everybody listening, I feel responsible. I feel responsible. In the same way that if you did something, if you were driving, you did something stupid and caused an accident in which other people died, you would feel,

Starting point is 01:12:30 I think, horrifically responsible, and you'd blame yourself because maybe you looked away or checked your phone or something. But you didn't intend to kill those people, of course. So for me, it's like, I didn't intend to kill, you know, sometimes I say like my own child. I don't know if that's offensive to some people, but it's like as if I killed my own child. It was, it was, it was a business, but it was special. So I don't feel, I feel responsibility. And then, you know, I'm angry at him, even though that anger is pointless. Okay, because this has come up, let's continue with the hard questions. Are they going to get easier?

Starting point is 01:13:24 They're going to get easier? They're gonna get easier. Most of them are easy. This is fun. We're having fun. You posted on Instagram, the ending, no, I'm gonna site Instagram like it's Shakespeare. The ending is disturbingly misleading, but still I'm very grateful for this coverage, this talking about the documentary. In quotes documentary.

Starting point is 01:13:48 M.O.K. with the criticism and judgment, but would rather it be based on what's true. And then you say a couple more sentences, and then you say, Leon, who has his own Instagram account? One lucky rescue dog says hello. He loves you all. Even if you call me a quote defective arrogant sociopath, it's all okay. So the hard question, do you think you are in part a sociopath? No. Would you know it if you were? Yes. How does this work? So what had you learned from reading this book? I had all these interesting thoughts, all these sort of questions and thoughts about it

Starting point is 01:14:27 because the book I'm reading now that I'm only about a third of the way through, she talks about some of the things in the brain structure that are particular to sociopaths. And so then it makes you think, well, what if that could be tweaked in some way? Like, could you un-sociopath, a sociopath? Is a nature nurture, I suppose, is the question.

Starting point is 01:14:50 I think it's both. I think it's genetic, and then it's like genes that are turned on. By things like a particularly violent childhood or some sort of a dysfunction. So I think somebody could have the gene, it's not turned on. And then the sociopaths have the gene and it's turned on. So sociopath means that you're not able to be empathetic or you're generally not empathetic to the suffering of others

Starting point is 01:15:22 or to the emotions of others. I mean, it would. It's a hollowness. So it's like you don't have just completely lacking the capacity. I mean, it's tragic because they wouldn't understand or feel love, but it's like a hollowness. And then something also about the wiring,

Starting point is 01:15:44 and I think also because of that hollowness, they're able to incredibly quickly look at others and identify their insecurities and buttons and weak spots. So they're incredibly good at manipulation. Is that because they're just able to objectively observe the situation? I wonder probably in part, but there was some other explanation related to the brain structure that I read somewhere that made sense to me and I won't like remember it because I don't usually. You're not Andrew Cuban who seems to reference. No, like I'll listen to him. Perfectly. Yeah. Single line from every book or paper he's ever read. Yes. Right. I don't remember things in that way. I try to usually remember the conclusions. Right. So like I might remember

Starting point is 01:16:29 that he might give a whole long explanation about why it's good to do this or to take this supplement. That's a bad habit I have. Sometimes I'll order supplements and then by the time they arrive I've forgotten why. Why? I forgot why. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all. Just take them all forgot why take them all I'm sorry, but the healthy version. I hope we get to talk about food because I feel like Yes, you have a brain that should be Fed only the best food Wow, so we can talk about that later. I have a lot of philosophies about that But certainly fluff is not within the best what is best. We'll definitely talk about food Throughout what is best That We'll definitely talk about food. Um, throughout what is best, um,

Starting point is 01:17:08 that makes me think of Conan. And I just talked to Oliver Stone who I didn't realize wrote Conan the Barbarian. Uh, do you know that in my head, I pictured Conan O'Brien. That's what he's also, I was in the blind. Wait, why is, I love him, but when you said that, I was like, Why did that make you think of Conan O'Brien? Yeah, I love him so much. I was such a brilliant human. Yeah. Sociopathy.

Starting point is 01:17:36 Sociopathy. Yeah. So, it's stuff about the brain fine, but how do you know you're not a sociopath? Would you know it? Am I a sociopath? No. How would I know it? How do you know you're not a sociopath? Would you know it? Am I a sociopath? No, no, I know it. How do you know? Well, having listened to a lot. Well, wouldn't that be able to be good at faking it? Is that what? Well, there's a mask on the cover of this book. I don't think you would be doing the work that you're doing. You'd probably be running for office or, you know, a trader on Wall Street or one of the things about sociopaths is they

Starting point is 01:18:08 They kind of need like the stimulation of risk and danger Well, I need okay sure more than average. I like Okay, but Wall Street There's a fakeness. I don't like the fakeness of the game of it. Yeah, that's why I left. I didn't, I just, it was a strange environment. Okay, so you're not a quote defective arrogant sociopath.

Starting point is 01:18:40 What does defective even mean? I know, well, I think that somebody had just called me that and I think that, you know, it's easy for people to say, like don't read the comments, but it's hard not to, because then also you'd miss the beautiful ones. Or sometimes you have to go on there to check a private message,

Starting point is 01:18:58 and you just stuff, it's there, people saying terrible things. So I try to, people say, don't pay attention to the commas, it's hard not to you, but I try to. Even with the documentary, you try to still kind of see, to look for the good ones, for the kind ones, for the supporters. Well, there were overwhelming kind comments, and so that helped and felt a lot better.

Starting point is 01:19:28 But sometimes the negative comments are based on, you know, they're based on false information. So if somebody knew everything that happened and then wanted to judge me or say things like that's somehow at least that's all right. But people saying these things based on things that are totally false is just, yeah. It's hard to just let that go. But I know that people also say things, you know, for their own personal reasons. I had a fascinating exchange with somebody who direct message me and called me trash.

Starting point is 01:20:14 You responded. I responded because it was, no, it was amazing. So I would do this as a wild. It's sort of like a, I might be procrastinating or, but I would do this as a wild sort of like a I might be procrastinating or but I would scroll through Because the private messages were overwhelming and there's still just this massive backlog They'll never probably get to read but the one that called you trash is a pickup as an opener You were like this is interesting. I just wasn't a mood. Yeah, and so I responded like this is interesting. I just was in a mood.

Starting point is 01:20:42 Yeah. And so I responded, and I wish I hadn't deleted it because I sort of deleted a bunch. And then I was like, oh, why did I delete that one? Because I was curious what exactly I said to him, but I responded to him in a nice way. And then he responded back. And then it started this whole back and forth conversation.

Starting point is 01:21:02 So he was kind quickly or no? Yes. And then also like wanted to get to know me and lives in Pennsylvania and was like, I'll come to you. I'm like, yeah. You realize if we, you know, if somehow this just turned into like that would be our how did you meet story? Well, he called me trash online. That's pretty good. But yeah. He ended up having such an insightful comment. I just found it interesting and I think he at first he said, I never imagined you'd reply, which is, you know, it's like part of the whole thing with social media, although this guy wasn't anonymous.

Starting point is 01:21:34 Um, was not anonymous. No, he had a, I think he had a private account, but it's like his name and his face was there. Yeah, people forget that you're a human being when they message you. Exactly. Folks, when you message forget that you're a human being when they message you. Exactly. Folks, when you message me, I mean, human being. So I told him that that was, you know, like that, that I was hurtful. Yeah. And, um, and I guess I wanted to understand more why he said it.

Starting point is 01:21:56 And it was surprisingly insightful, but he said something about, again, I wish I hadn't deleted it, that he, um, he was like, I guess I was just angry because, um, I wish I hadn't deleted it, that he, he was like, I guess I was just angry because like that guy, he said something like, I guess I was just angry because that guy got you and I would have, you know, so it made me think of the whole insel jealousy thing that can be very terrifying if you're female. Is that like, if you reject a guy, they might turn around and be violent or angry at you. And so his... Well, to be fair, there's a dormant anger in probably all of us. I believe there's a capacity for cruelty and anger and probably all of us. I believe there's a capacity for cruelty

Starting point is 01:22:45 and anger and destruction all of us. And the whole struggle of life is to emphasize the good stuff. Yeah. So it's not just an insult thing. It's true for men and women, both capable of cruelty. That is very true. But this one guy. So then you put on my therapist hat. We started what do we start with? I already forgot. But the, oh, Leon. He popped back to sociopath. No, no, just, you know, maybe it's not the best idea to answer comments that start with your trash. I don't do it all the time. It just happened upon that one. And I was just in a certain mood.

Starting point is 01:23:28 I was just in a certain mood. And I like the term. Or the offline sort of discuss this mood that you're in, because it might get your in trouble at some point in your future. OK. Can we just jump back speaking of guys that say as an opening of your trash, how did you and Anthony's strangers meet? Can we jump around and tell some of the details here?

Starting point is 01:23:56 Because I believe the document doesn't cover that well. It's not clear. There's some Twitter interactions and you've kind of assumed, by the way, I do think he needs some social media coaching on this because I think, you know, I have some books you need to read, I think, some manuals on how to use Twitter properly. But anyway, apparently you kind of thought that this person who turned out to be, what was his name? He called themselves Shane Fox, but he turned out to be Anthony Strangis that he was somehow friends with Al Baldwin because of their friendly interaction on Twitter. And so he started interacting with him. And then there was, how did that escalate quickly to

Starting point is 01:24:48 It escalated slowly and I think I'm sure it was intentional because had I met him right away. I would have probably thought like oh He's not what I thought he was and no thanks but it was a long time it was many weeks of back and forth conversation. Digitally one way or another so it was, you know, via Twitter and then via direct message and then we both played words with friends back then and we would message and words with friends and then eventually, you know, we exchanged phone numbers. How does word with friends work? What's that? I know that's a popular game. Is that a Scrabble? It's like Scrabble and you're playing other people

Starting point is 01:25:30 and then there's like a chat function. Yeah, and then you can chat with them. Right. So you were this intellectual stimulating game and you were like flirting and that kind of stuff. Like Whittybanner. Yes. AK Flanner. Yes. AK Flooding.

Starting point is 01:25:47 Yes. But all of that lasted a really long time, and he would give me like little tiny bits and pieces of information about himself that made him seem kind of mysterious. This is a dark mysterious man who was a Navy SEAL strong. Yeah, and he would always imply things versus say them outright. So you're kind of always guessing and filling things. Clean Eastwood type of character. It's not going to say it outright.

Starting point is 01:26:15 He's what? He's a clean Eastwood type of character. He's not going to say it outright. Right. He's just going to act badass. Yeah. Okay. All right.

Starting point is 01:26:23 And plus intellectual, because of words, words with words with friends is that still a thing? So, what's it? What's it? I think it still exists. Yeah. But I, I, I, I, I feel like if I started playing it again, I would, I would get a little addicted and yeah. But stick to the coffee. One of the interesting things is that I used to think that he used an app to look up things, but then he would do it in front of me. He could like look at, he was really good at it, and he could look at the board and just like come up with, you know, a hundred point word that I'd never even heard of. So I think he had a little bit of that something going on in his brain that was like,

Starting point is 01:27:06 So, I think he had a little bit of that something going on in his brain that was like, I don't know, a little brain man-ish or something in the way that he was able to recall. I think his recall is incredibly important if you lie a lot. If you lie a lot, yeah. To have good recall. Okay, so when it's okay, so how did escalate slowly with friends, the meeting in real life? Like, what, you know what, I mean, what, okay. I know, it's not a love affair. That said, when did you kind of get hooked

Starting point is 01:27:40 by the, ooh, I wonder, you know, with fall in love. I think it was just a slow. Yeah you know, but fall in love. I think it was just a slow. Yeah, what did you fall in love? It was a slow process. And I think he found me at a time when there was sort of a perfect storm of the right conditions for me to fall into whatever I fell into with him. Because that was heartbroken for the first time in my life.

Starting point is 01:28:06 Where was the heartbreak coming from? I had split with my boyfriend of four years And that broke your heart. Yeah, I mean, it was I knew it was a relationship that I knew would end even when I got into it in the first place because he's 15 years younger than me and when I got into it in the first place, because he's 15 years younger than me. Surely, they can't be the only reason he wouldn't work. I need to also give you a book on love. What's it called? I'm going to write it.

Starting point is 01:28:37 I don't know. That's a joke. I didn't bring. There's no book on Twitter and there's no book on love. It's a lot of people keep trying to write. Well, because there's a lot of people keep trying to write. I really like that I think you might like. What is it?

Starting point is 01:28:51 Love languages I still have to read that. No, it's called on love. I can't wait. But I'm going to read the Cliff Notes. Bye. It's short. By this guy named Alan DeBoton. French name.

Starting point is 01:29:03 So I don't trust himon. Like, French name. I don't trust them already. No, it's funny and it's beautiful and shocking that he wrote it when he was very young. And I first heard him on a Christo-Tippet podcast. That's how I end up reading a lot of books. It's like, you hear somebody on a podcast. So. So, you're hard-broken. You knew it was going to work. you knew it was gonna work.

Starting point is 01:29:26 I knew it was gonna work because the age difference. What else? That's just because the age difference also, you know, I just knew that eventually he'd want to move on and probably he'd find somebody younger and or was young enough that he still needed to go have a bunch of other experiences. And you know, probably wanted a family or whatnot eventually. So he was 21 and I was 34 when we first met. But then we ended up living together for four years.

Starting point is 01:29:58 And it was the most drama free, like there's no drama. And I had just come off my prior relationship with Matthew Kenny, which was very Dark in many ways and full of all kinds of Yeah, and I just couldn't couldn't handle that so can I ask you a personal question? Yes Between us and between us friends Is there a party you that's attracted to the drama and the chaos? No, looking back. I feel like that happens a lot and maybe there was at some point, but I don't think so because you know part what made that relationship work

Starting point is 01:30:50 With his name was Tobin was that there was no drama Not at all and I don't think I could have handled it and I feel that way now too like I just couldn't I can't like fighting or any kind of like Like people being passive aggressive. I can, I can't like fighting or any kind of like, like people being passive aggressive, I can't, I can't handle that. Um, so you've had enough storms now you want to calm. Yes. Yeah. Um, so you knew, you knew it wasn't work. I knew it wasn't gonna be forever. Well, that that could be just, uh, in security and cynicism, but fair enough. And then the heart was broken. And now the heart was broken and fragile. And there to be manipulated in some sense.

Starting point is 01:31:36 Yes. And there's another person that I heard that I quoted my book saying that when your heart broke and you can't rely on your instincts somehow your instincts are compromised when you're heartbroken and maybe I'm just like looking for excuses. No, no, sure, but I was heartbroken and then I like to see people in their heart broken because it's like, shows how much they really love somebody. You know? Yeah, it's sad, but I sometimes love doesn't reveal itself as richly when you're in it versus when you lose it.

Starting point is 01:32:20 Right, that's probably true. Anyway, so your judgment wasn't good. Great. So now you're, so you're lonely and you're super busy running the restaurant, but when you get home, you're lonely or like in between. Yeah, and I was kind of overwhelmed and I'm sure you were getting a lot of really positive attention from other guys to while New York or to busy. Well, no, because it was a restaurant that was constantly, you're constantly meeting people and really interesting people.

Starting point is 01:32:57 And New York is full of a lot of interesting people. And you're attractive. But why are you connected to some mysterious, distant man from somewhere else playing over awards? Because, well, I think now looking back, I think it's because I felt like he understood me. And what was that feeling for coming from you think? Like, what is one feeling for coming from you think like what?

Starting point is 01:33:28 Why did you why does one feel that you're understood? One thing that made me extra easy to target is that I'd written a lot of very personal blogs and things. So in addition to him asking me questions and me probably just being insanely open and answering whatever he asked me, I had also written and posted a bunch of personal blogs. Some of them I've reposted on my new website and then some of them I haven't. But in one of them I go into detail about my frustrations professionally in growing the business. And having read that and being a very smart person, he would have known kind

Starting point is 01:34:07 of precisely what to say to get me drawn in. So I think by waiting so long before we met in person, he'd already gotten me hooked in a way that was gonna then make it possible for me to you know see him and even though he doesn't look like I thought he did, I'll make excuses for it. Or I mean, that's a dangerous thing about when people and I'm not saying I fell in love with him in this way, I feel like there's another explanation for the what felt like love um, but when people fall in love quickly, there's that danger that because that's what happens first, that the more you learn about them, you'll sort of rationalize away things that might be red flags or things that you don't like. So I think it's safer to fall in love.

Starting point is 01:35:07 When you get to know somebody, not in the context of dating them, like Jim and Pam on the office. Did you watch the office? Yeah, of course I watch the office. British office is better, strong words, but yes. But yes, so... Well so well, yeah, fine. True, but I also like, yeah, I like the romantic. You can fall for it. Yeah, it's fine.

Starting point is 01:35:34 You, but just I think the better lesson is, yes, that's one thing to say. But the other is like when you see the red flags, notice them, be a little better about noticing them. But what if even amidst the passion? What if like a brilliant woman kind of threw herself in your path, right? She, having, because talking on a podcast is a little bit like having a blog where you overshare because people learn everything about you, what you like, what you, what you don't like, what you're wants and dreams. And so some women could pretend to throw herself in your path seemingly accidentally, and then you meet.

Starting point is 01:36:12 And she has a Russian accent, and it probably works for FSB. No, but whatever, she is who she is. And then she sort of slides into the conversation like a quote from the idiot, right? And you're like, boom, right? And then, but then, but she's not who she, that's all pretend. And so you very quickly could fall in love with her and she's going to turn out to like,

Starting point is 01:36:42 enjoy the game of destroying your life. Yep. You know, that or it's the love of my life. It could be, but not if she did all those things intentionally. But you don't really know. But you have to then pay attention to it. That's the dark aspect here. You mentioned blog.

Starting point is 01:37:00 Like I love when people have stuff about themselves online. Because you get to really learn, I'm a fan of podcasts, I'm a fan of people. I love learning about them, the personal stuff and so on. Hopefully for good reasons. So the people you connect with, the good ones are the ones that are going to be very empathetic. And the bad ones are the ones that are going to be fake empathetic. Like they're going to learn everything about you and use you to manipulate you.

Starting point is 01:37:31 As opposed to learn everything about you to fall deeper in love with you as a friend or as a romantic partner. Or like genuine curiosity. Yeah, genuine curiosity. Like there's something you're drawing, like imagine your dog Leon had a blog after, oh yeah, he does not, yeah, that's true.

Starting point is 01:37:48 Kind of does. Yeah, but as when you met him, right, then you'd be like, what is this, what is there that's pulling me towards this creature, this entity, like what is there, and you'd be fascinating to learn more. Right. And we fall in love with the details, not just with some kind of ethereal thing. Yeah, you don't know. You have to pay attention to the red flags, you have to... Yeah, I think one of them actually is somebody who doesn't have that kind of...

Starting point is 01:38:16 I mean, plenty of people are private and they don't put stuff out about themselves online for all kinds of very valid reasons. But somebody who does share a lot about themselves personally is maybe there's examples, but just probably not a sociopath. If they're sharing all kinds of... Sure, sure. But I mean, on the other side, when you meet people, yeah, I still like the falling in love. Because the red flags, whether you see them early or later, I'd rather see the red flags

Starting point is 01:38:47 right away. I go in hard intensely to clarify it by going hard. No small talk. Just get to know a person. Get to know quickly. Get to know the person. Challenge. Travel with them. Travel with them is a really powerful and the road trip from hell or not. Get to know a person, get to know quickly, get to know the person, challenge, travel with them, travel with them as a really powerful and a road trip from hell or not.

Starting point is 01:39:10 Go on a road trip and find out if it's a road trip from hell. But you might, so there was somebody I was, is also a male perspective, destructive relationship with where we had already fallen in love and then went for the first trip. In a situation where we were like had to borrow, I guess he was sharing his car with his ex-wife so we had to go to the garage, pick up the car to go on this little trip. So you're literally baggage. That's wow. So, but something happened where the garage attendant was like wanted more identification and it was a pain in the ass.

Starting point is 01:39:51 And anyway, this guy was so unbelievably rude to the garage attendant, like just nasty. And I was completely shocked and disturbed and we got in the car for this long car ride. And I was like not saying anything and really shocked. And then he noticed that and was very concerned and I explained, you know, like I just, I never, I would never treat somebody that way. And then he pretended to get incredibly upset and to feel horrible and remorseful about it.

Starting point is 01:40:27 And it was like all we talked about for the next few hours. And then I kind of thought like, well, okay, you know, I can get over that. And then the relationship continued. And it was a dark and destructive one. Whereas, you know, had I seen him behave that way before we were in a relationship, I would have known to back away. Okay. But the lesson, you could still walk away.

Starting point is 01:40:54 You could still walk away. But no, you can't. Well, I could have walked away at any point with, I call him Mr. Fox because it's sort of depersonalizes him. But I could have walked away from him at any point in time, but that's the whole. That's kind of the whole point of what they do and the whole reason why people don't understand it. I mean, it's this, it's like being in a cult of one. So the people who've been in cults and gotten out, we understand each other very well because the same psychology was used, the same psychological tactics were used on us.

Starting point is 01:41:36 And then we experience the same thing on the other side of it, which is it's hard for us to understand and it's hard for other people to understand. And everybody's saying that would never happen to me or they're're saying, I don't get it, because you're smart. How could you let that happen? Why didn't you leave? Why didn't you walk away? And on the other side of it, we don't have the answers,

Starting point is 01:41:53 or it takes a really long time of self-reflection and reading and investigation to try and figure out how it is that it happened, and why didn't we walk away? No, that means definitely hard at every level. I just think that even for more subtle, sort of not outrageously toxic relationships, but like normal toxic, not normal,

Starting point is 01:42:20 like a little bit toxic relationship. But there are some people that kind of thrive on conflict. Yeah, but you could just still just be self-aware. I think you've talked about, give yourself time to think about the red flags. I pride myself on being able to walk away. You have to think, is this the kind of thing I can live with in friendship and business partners and

Starting point is 01:42:49 Because the little things that bother you turn out to be big things down the line so yeah, so it could be Less romantic, but I feel like Getting to know somebody slowly over time is yeah, it's a smarter thing. It's safer. Fuck it though But that's again my you know Russian slash Ukrainian male perspective anyway, so Meeting mr. Fox Anthony, that's a chapter title in my book meeting mr Mr. Fox. Meeting Mr. Fox. So you're working

Starting point is 01:43:27 on a book about this. I'm almost done. It's taken a really long time. Can you define almost done? Because I, you know, I've said that it's like, it's when people say like, you know, they're leaving like I'm almost in the car. Right. And they, they do actually, they're not really, they're not really, they haven't even started the showering yet or something. So yeah, I do, I think I probably need some like therapist to work with me on this. I usually relate to things. No. Okay. I'm usually, oh, I sent you a text message because I was early when I got here. Yeah, and I said that I'm Because of I think I said my crippling fear of being late I

Starting point is 01:44:17 I'm like always early So I'm loitering outside like a weirdo book like to come in if it's not too early I'm loitering outside like a weirdo book like to come in if it's not too early. The crippling fear of being late makes me chronically early and today's no exception. Yeah, it's interesting. So I got here before I rang the bell. Yeah, I was outside for a little while,

Starting point is 01:44:36 like just killing time going, I'm way too early. But it's really hot out. Oh, that's true. Yeah, because I'll, yeah, I'll, I always air, like I was very early to the airport and then I had all this time to kill. But that's fine with me because that's actually time I appreciate because I can write things or, you know,

Starting point is 01:44:56 I worked on my book draft on the, on the airplane, mostly editing, which it needs a lot because it's really long. It's in word count. So all the things are already completed and you're just editing down. No, I wish it's in five parts and I've written one through four and part five is like the chapters are all there, but some of them are messy. Some of them are some of them are just like a few paragraphs, some of them are just notes, some of them are done. So I am kind of almost it's like five parts and part five is not quite finished.

Starting point is 01:45:39 What are you, but I've been editing along the way. So, so this is going to come on in 2023. I think you mentioned so we'll come out for a bit or we'll figure it out. you mentioned, so it won't come out for a bit or we'll figure it out. What have you learned about yourself from putting some of these things down on paper? What's like the darkest thing you've realized about yourself from writing? The darkest. Well, one of the things that was fascinating is reading through all of the correspondence between him and me that I was able to find because he deleted all our emails But he didn't I think he thought he deleted all of our g chats, but he didn't Also, he had access to your email. He deleted on that side too and he did yeah

Starting point is 01:46:17 He had access to my email most of the time and then at the end was also emailing people as me which was And then at the end was also emailing people as me, which was incredibly mortifying to come home and then get back into my old email and find that. And I think he was also texting people as me. And those I'll never know unless somebody brings it to my attention. Because after a certain date in 2015, he had my phone and he had exclusive access to my phone and email. So I wasn't looking at it until I Got out until after we were arrested

Starting point is 01:46:50 And I was out on bail on my sisters and it took me a long time to get back into my Gmail because I had to verify who I am and And I never got my phone back. So I don't know what he texted to other people as me after that time. But anyway, I was able to recover a lot of our G chats, which we use that. I don't know why people don't use it anymore, but it used to be a thing. It was like if you work with people and use Gmail, it's a really easy way to just message back. Just a chat client within Google, but I think Google has shut a dollar right here, I know. I think it's still there.

Starting point is 01:47:29 OK. And nobody, I used to talk to people on there. And nobody talked to me anymore. And so I'd rather be. Thank you. Thank you. I don't, yeah. People don't love Google's social products or some reason the social network

Starting point is 01:47:47 They tried several times Google plus you just dies out something about it It's like my Microsoft tries to do stuff. It just doesn't feel right anyway It is it is very lonely and that Google chat window makes total sense though Anyway, so that was still there. So you're reading through them. So finding, you know, being able to go back and read. And then I kept finding like more layers of stuff and including a journal that I didn't find the, the DA, the prosecutor found. Written by me, my journal,

Starting point is 01:48:19 that I thought he'd thrown away. I didn't know it existed. So somehow we still had it and they found my journal, which was for the year 2014 in the very beginning of 2015. This is after you got, this is in the middle of it. It was in the middle of it. Yeah, so reading that was fascinating. Yeah, what's some interesting things there? Was your mind completely detached?

Starting point is 01:48:51 It was weird because no. Are we concerned? Were you in love? Were you afraid? I was not in love. I was afraid. I definitely write repeatedly in there that I'm afraid of them. I also write repeatedly things like, I don't know what's going on. Like, please let this be over, please let this be over, please let this be over. And then in a sort of, if I try to remove myself and look at it as if I was a different person, it's sort of heartbreaking because I was trying so hard to be positive. And that didn't work out, you know, trying to be positive. So, but when I, it turned up later in the process, and my lawyer at the time called or something and said,

Starting point is 01:49:41 you know, the DA has your, or the prosecutor, that they have your journal. I haven't read it yet, but as soon as I get a PDF copy, I'll send it to you. So that was sort of weird to think that everybody's reading my journal, which, you know, you don't write it, thinking people are gonna read, unless you're like a historical person,

Starting point is 01:49:58 and then later on, you think people are gonna print from it. But, you know, nobody's writing his journal. I can just imagine like a 14-year-old later on, you think people are gonna print from it. But nobody writing is journal. I can just imagine like a 14-year-old thinking they're gonna be a historical person, right? Right. Well, no, I mean like, you know, presidents who keep journals and then they're later on.

Starting point is 01:50:15 Sure, sure, sure. So you write it, you don't think everybody's gonna read it. And so that was a weird feeling. And then also just not knowing, having, you know, not remembering what I wrote. So I think it was the next day I got, she sent me a PDF copy of it and I read it really quickly because I could read my own, it was a PDF so it was like zeroxes of the pages. So it was in my own handwriting, which I could read really fast because even though it's messy, I wrote it so I could

Starting point is 01:50:43 read it really fast and I read the whole thing and was crying because I thought, okay, finally, like, surely nobody could read this and think that I intended to commit crimes. So I thought that journal was just going to fully exonerate me. They would drop the charges, it would just be like, okay, well, you know, some bad things happened. You're responsible, you know, here's probation. But it didn't seem to make any difference, which was strange. But anyway, so the journal and then also finding all of the correspondence between not all of the correspondence between him and me, but the the g chat correspondence between him and me To me so you know all of that in its entire like I wish that everything could have been

Starting point is 01:51:34 Kind of put out there as evidence like the more they turned up the better for me because I wanted them to see everything and There are just so many examples in the correspondence from him and me where he's you know threatening me and you know lying to me and telling me that if I don't do what he says my whole life will be destroyed and I'll lose everything I ever cared about all kinds of things like that. But what was what I still don't quite understand and what one of my lawyers said why all of that wasn't as useful as I thought it might be is because so much of that correspondence. I'm like sarcastically, angrily. I'm yelling at him. I'm mad at him. I'm like fuck you. I'm making fun of him. I call him names. I'll say to him like you're lying, why should I believe you? You told me you'd pay me back before, but you didn't. So it seems like it doesn't, it seems like it doesn't make sense.

Starting point is 01:52:31 Like, how is it that if I say to him, you're lying, you're a liar that I still, but so then what would happen is I'm reading those, that correspondence and then it stops for a while, maybe because I was with him in person. And then I'll look at like my timeline of things and I'll see like, oh, I sent him a wire for 80,000. Yeah, how do you explain your ability to still joke around and also to be like mean to him in a joking way. Like, you know, couples can do that. I guess, like, I mean, there's like, cruel ways of doing that. And then there's like humorous ways,

Starting point is 01:53:12 just like you're talking shit, whatever. You were able to do that still and yet you're sending over the money and are afraid. Like, how can you be those two things? I guess I'm supposed to complete shutting down. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, these are all interesting questions

Starting point is 01:53:32 that I have as well. Like, how is it that I was functional? Yeah. And yet also doing these things. And so the year that we were gone is like a different level because I no longer was running the business. But the thing about dissociation is that you're functioning, but your feelings and your thinking are detached in some way, so that your functioning and people wouldn't look at you and go,

Starting point is 01:53:58 that person's dissociating because you're functioning, you seem normal, but somehow in your head, you're like disconnecting your feelings and you're thinking. So you still be able to be like, like the the game of social interaction, like being witty and so on, all that kind of stuff. You still for me, I think it's like a coping mechanism too, because I'll like if I went, I haven't been too funeral a long time, but if I went, I'd probably find absurd thing. Or all tend to either make jokes or want to make jokes at really inappropriate times, even in tragic times, because it's almost like a defense mechanism I think. Like you said, you told me you like dark humor.

Starting point is 01:54:41 Yeah. I, my next door neighbor is Michael Males. He's an anarchist. I have one of his books, the hero, dear reader. Deer reader. Yeah. And he loves, he, he embodies Dark Humor, trolling in Dark Humor. And, and it's underneath the sweetest human being. Because he's writing a book now, the white pill that's really focused on Stalin and the Hollywood more, which basically atrocities throughout the 20th century and I think he needs the dark humor to release the valve. I think there's something about incredibly good the most offensive comedians

Starting point is 01:55:22 tend to have the kindest hearts. I think. This is my theory. People like Ricky Jervais, who goes out and insults people and makes jokes that people find horribly offensive and crude and yet, you know, is a huge animal rights guy and appears to be an incredibly sweet and kind person and sensitive. And, you know, Howard Stern, people who are like incredibly crude very often are, in my experience, to the extent that I've gotten either to know people personally, observe them, learn about them in other ways, but the almost like the more crude and offensive, the the comedian or the person they tend to have the kind of

Starting point is 01:56:12 like they would. Yeah, I don't know if it's a universal role, but yeah, I see what you mean. Why? You lost me with Howard's turn. I, he seems like not a good person. Oh, no, he's such a good person. Underneath it. Oh, yeah, such a good person.

Starting point is 01:56:23 He's just said so much. So I'm friends with Rogan He said so many ignorant things about Rogan, but I suppose that's So I haven't heard I haven't listened to Howard Stern in a long time And I also think that people who say bad things about Rogan Don't listen to his podcast right because if I've I've listened to his podcast and like people think that I think people would assume that I don't like him because or the whole like vegan thing and he's all

Starting point is 01:56:51 about me and they would think that I would think no. I mean because I've listened to enough of his podcast, I've heard the one where he talked about why he hunts. And whereas if I if I only knew him via his Instagram, I might think he's an asshole. But having listened to all of his, not all, I know it's not all of them, there's a ton of them. But having listened to a lot of his podcasts enough to know that, you know, he's an extremely kind person with all the best intentions and i think that all out of that judgment comes from people who are just seeing little clips yeah it's a lot easier to take little clips from him that sound yeah the lesson there's just not make judgements on people without getting to know them especially and you have no excuse when the content is out there like don't be lazy. Yeah, I try. That's, yeah, I'm very careful when, you know, a lot of these cases, you know, like the

Starting point is 01:57:51 deaf heard thing or. Oh, a giant deaf and a list of homes and anything like controversial. And sometimes that makes me, I can't think of an example, but very often, like when somebody criticizes something or something becomes controversial, that's what gets me to want to understand it better. So then I'll go like read the book that everybody's mad about. Yeah, it's hard to know what's true though. So I try to have humility and always assume I don't really know the full story and keep

Starting point is 01:58:20 pulling at the string, keep learning more and more. But even then, like, the more you learn, the more you realize the things that complex. What do you think about as a small tangent, Johnny Depp, Amber Heard, trials going on? The quicksaws, it's going to resume next week. So again, this is one of those situations where, I have very limited information,

Starting point is 01:58:43 because I'm also not sitting there watching the trial. Yeah, have you watched any of it? Little bits of it. And it's like, I know that if I go there, then that I'm gonna wanna watch it all. Yeah, it's good. I know. Because it's raw human relationships

Starting point is 01:58:59 that it's most toxic and it's most deep also because you can tell there's love, probably still there's love which is the interesting thing they probably still love each other even though they hate each other um and like there's a lot of lying going on it looks like it's amber herding lying to to my foolish eyes it seems like she's lying nonstop but you know I want to know the full story not stop, but you know, I want to know the full story and we'll never get to know it. But you see this raw, like post-mortem on a relationship on a love affair that was clearly passionate, there was clearly something deep of a connection there.

Starting point is 01:59:36 And it just, that's the sad thing about love. It can destroy you as much as it can uplift you. So there would be also used to destroy people. Yeah, to manipulate and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Right. So people who feel that strongly are, I think, particularly vulnerable. Yeah, it's, it's hard to talk about because I've dipped into like a podcast or something where other people are discussing bad vegan and like a pop culture way.

Starting point is 02:00:09 And they're analyzing it and it's so annoying to listen to because I'm like, oh my God, that's totally wrong. That's totally wrong. Well, if they only knew this, well, I have, nope, that's wrong. So it, you know, listening to other people analyzing my situation or my psychology when they don't have all the information has been really frustrating. But I did the difference because the world doesn't know much about you except for Netflix documentary. Right.

Starting point is 02:00:35 There's a lot more information about both Johnny Depp and Amber Heard and the trial is revealing the real piece. This is so interesting, but I haven't watched it all. Okay, but there's a difference in a documentary and like a raw human being. Exactly, the real trial. You can see the body language. The, and so interesting that I think you could tell the difference to the person who is foolish yet, not.

Starting point is 02:01:01 No, I'm not sure. Yeah, it's another, I'm gonna, I can't remember. And, and's another, I can't remember. And I'm sorry, I keep interrupting you, but on top of this, they're actors too, which is very annoying. Right, exactly. Because I don't know if they're putting, be sure as hell looks like Amber, her just putting on like a soap opera act, soap opera meaning like really bad acting of like and lies. But I would say all of these things are really hard

Starting point is 02:01:28 People would say about me. I don't look like a victim and I don't mind you interrupting me because Andrew Huberman said that that means you're interested He said it was a good thing So you don't have to apologize I think I think yeah Keeps coming up, but I keep thinking of these. That's one of the things that Andrew told me that I'm like, are you sure? Because it just does seem like an asshole thing to do. I don't, I guess it depends on the context.

Starting point is 02:01:54 If we're in a business meeting and somebody talks over you to kind of make their point heard, but if it's a one on one situation, then it's not. I can argue with that forever. But so a long time ago, I listened to, there was an audio call, an audio that was released of a taped argument between Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. And I don't remember why, like which one of them had taped it and if they knew it was being taped, but it was like an hour and a half.

Starting point is 02:02:21 And I listened to it, almost like he would listen to a podcast where I was doing other things. I was like cleaning my apartment and I was fascinated listening to it. To a fight. So it's interesting too because it was just the audio, not so you're not looking at their body language, which can be completely misleading. And there was another podcast where they talked about how judges make worst decisions on whether or not somebody deserves parole or to be released on bail when they see the person in person versus if they're just looking at the information on paper.

Starting point is 02:02:52 So I think body language and those kinds of things can actually be misleading. Or we think that by looking somebody in the eye, we'll know if they're lying or not, but the skilled liars are able to bypass that. Because I'm jumping all over the place, but one of the things about sociopaths is they're not going to have the same tell. So like if I was lying, somebody would know because I'm like stressed out, mortified, I'm probably doing all the things that we do when we lie, because it's stressful for me, whereas they don't Have those things. So I think that you know, they could for example

Starting point is 02:03:30 I think that they could pass a lie detector test They also don't have like a startle response so That's the activity in their brain like if you and I watch something's Graphic and tragic on TV or watch something happen. Like things would happen in our brains that don't happen in the brains of sociopaths. So they don't react to things in the same way that we do. But that makes them-

Starting point is 02:03:52 Assuming I'm not a sociopath, I didn't say I'm not a sociopath. This assumption you keep making is very interesting. Then why did I murder all those people? Let's get back to the, what were we talking about? Johnny Depp and Amber Hurd. So the audio that I heard made me, without knowing anything else, made me very inclined to be team Johnny Depp based on that, based just based on that audio.

Starting point is 02:04:16 Yeah, well that's how the people are feeling about this whole interaction. By the way, I do think it's a very healthy thing to do in a relationship is to record each other for months at a time. Every time you fight, that just seems like a very that sarcasm. I don't understand how that because they both recorded each other. It's just, I suppose you could look back at all human relations and be like, this was ridiculous. What was I doing? But when you're in it, you don't... Right, I wondered that too. Like, who made the recording and why? And and did they both know about it that it was being recorded? Sometimes it is. Sometimes it didn't. All I know is just the poetry of Johnny Debs speaking and

Starting point is 02:05:03 sort of movement about the whole thing, it's interesting. It makes me wonder what's real. Maybe this is whole, maybe they're both in love and this is like a troll that they played on the world. I don't know. It makes me wonder what's real at all. Cause you have to remember their actors too.

Starting point is 02:05:27 Yeah, I don't think he would have filed a lawsuit. If you know, I mean, I'm joking. It's no, I know, but no, I mean, my point is, um, yes, yeah. If somebody was trying to make the argument that like he's the abuser and that he's lying and he's full of shit. It sort of doesn't make sense that he would have filed a lawsuit unless he's trying to have this all come out in the open because he believes he's in the right. You know, again, I don't, I have no idea. I agree with you.

Starting point is 02:05:59 I agree with you. As a fan of love and human nature, I appreciate the fact that they went through this. I know it's probably extremely painful, but it's fascinating to watch human relationships be presented in such a raw way, and it made me realize how rare it is to get a glimpse like that. Yeah, and I think one of the reasons I like that book, Confessions of Associate Path also is, it's, you know, female who's writing it. And I think statistically men are more likely to be sociopaths. Maybe not.

Starting point is 02:06:32 I mean, these are all things where a lot of times there exist statistics that would be inherently hard to get. So who knows. But I think that people tend to think of sociopaths more as men and then which probably gives female sociopaths the advantage and that people are less likely to Like the Elizabeth Holmes like people who are really manipulative and really good at it and people who are really manipulative and really good at it. Part of how they're able to succeed is that people don't understand their motives, or people will assume that people behave rationally,

Starting point is 02:07:14 even if rationally means it's like Anthony Stranges. It would have made more sense if he had gotten all this money out of me, and put it in an overseas account and then ditched me and got on a plane to Mexico. Everybody would understand that more. Whereas the way things happen and he dragged me around the country and what were we doing in Tennessee and then nothing really makes any sense. But, and also all of the things that he did to me and had me do, it was as if all of those things together

Starting point is 02:07:54 only make sense if his primary goal was to maximally destroy me and also make it, like, have me burn all my bridges and make it so I'll never recover. And when you read a book like that, you understand that that's what he wanted. Like, that's his life. So, he can explain that, brother. Like, what do you think?

Starting point is 02:08:15 It's about power and it's a game. Do you think he understood the long term goals he has? Or was it the short term game of it that he enjoyed the ability to destroy you? Well, yeah, it was the short termterm game of it because it's huge. Control another human. Yeah, and also I think for him, like, their motivations are just different. So,

Starting point is 02:08:38 you know, he spent a year incarcerated because he never got out on bail, but then he got out. He's out of prison though. He got out before I went in to serve my time, which was particularly, you know, like psychologically I had to try really hard, not to be infuriated. And, but anyway, so I think for him, you know, the consequence of spending time in jail, sort of like an inconvenience, you know, life is a game.

Starting point is 02:09:12 And so he wouldn't feel, if you're not capable of being emotionally hurt, then you're, you know, you have immense power because you can go around and do things and people can't hurt you. It's like a superpower. And he did this for people who are not familiar. I guess he did this to other women. Yes. Yes. I think it was in the documentary that his, I guess, ex-wife from somewhere else was Florida. Florida. Florida.

Starting point is 02:09:47 Of course, Florida. Sorry. Strong, strong words. Well, it's just like when there's the weirdest story about, you know, people eating tide pods and then doing crazy, it's like it's always in, it's always in Florida. So I feel like whenever crazy thing. So to me, it makes sense that he would have spent time in Florida before and that's where. Crazy in a good way.

Starting point is 02:10:07 And I mean that on an insult on him. I also like, she's an amazing person. Yes. So it's like, it's him that I'm making the like Florida is weird. Yes. He manipulated her as well, lied to her, the kind of things. Well, jumping around, but one of the things you said that was disturbing me misleading is the ending of the documentary.

Starting point is 02:10:31 And the ending has a phone call, I think, of you and Anthony talking. So what high level of me ask, how many times have you talked with Anthony since you got out of prison and what did you talk about and why is that quote misleading that segment of audio misleading? My issue with it also was that it was deliberately misleading which was what was particularly particularly infuriating about it and furiating about it. And then also there was, it was like there were think one major thing that was incorrect that I think helped allow

Starting point is 02:11:13 people to make an incorrect conclusion at the end was in the film that talks about I say something about how my accountant made a joke about if I married him he could easily transfer me money without tax consequences. And then the film has me saying something like, you know, and then within 24 hours we were married. But that's like audio from here and audio from here spliced together.

Starting point is 02:11:37 So they made it seem like they're like I married him because it was like he could give me money. And that wasn't the case. So your part mastermind of some kind of scheme that involved money transfer and you got married in that kind of thing? Right. Or if nothing else, I had like I was trying to get money. That's why I married him. So which is absurd because again, you know, New York is full of legitimate people with loads of money if I really wanted to marry somebody for money in New York, it wouldn't be that hard to do. But anyway, it was just a deliberate making it seem like my intention was to marry him for his fictitious money. Okay, so that's one. And either way, let's go to that ending thing because we're on that sort of topic. Because when you got out of prison,

Starting point is 02:12:27 you know, what the film implies is that whatever there's a small aspect of your mind that still wants to continue a relationship with Anthony. Yeah, that's not the case. And not just that, but there's still flirtation and that kind of body and client. Like we got the world, like at our fingertips, we're playing. So I mean, one of the exciting things about being like a couple that's fucking with the world that's

Starting point is 02:13:02 getting away with something is that there's all these powerful forces that want to catch you in a crime and you keep getting away with it. That's exciting. In some romance world, it could be, although not in this case. Right. And also, I always have to keep reminding people, like, get away with what? Because I lost everything and all these people lost other, you know, people, like, cared about, lost a lot. My mother lost a lot, but I lost everything, too. Yeah, your restaurants and all my... Your dream.

Starting point is 02:13:40 Yeah. My reputation, my stuff, my home, you know, ending up with millions of dollars of debt. Like, it's not even like I lost it all and then it's a clean slate. It's like I lost it all and now I have this like giant, older of, or like this wobbly, unclear how to, like, yeah. So when people say, well, Cicophist, I don't think way with something, I'm always like, God, away with what? I know. Just trying my life and ending up in debt, because that's, it's not even like, you can't even sort of point to like,

Starting point is 02:14:16 as if I was trying to do something and then oops, that happened. It's like, there's no, nothing that logically makes sense if somebody was trying to decipher my, you know, whatever motives I might have had. Yeah, you didn't walk away from the explosion, you were inside the explosion. Okay, but that said, the movie implied, and so, I mean mean it's interesting to ask not just in clarifying the movie but just as a human being, you're out of prison, he's out of prison. There was, you know, there was that toxic connection but it was there and there's a depth to it. So toxic connections can be pretty deep. So what was the conversation like

Starting point is 02:15:10 and how often have you talked with him? Well, we don't speak anymore. And that call at the end was. I even had G-Chat. Recorded. Was recorded. I recorded the call and gave it to them, you know? So I was like deliberately recording him.

Starting point is 02:15:28 It's not like I was caught on a hot mic. Like, I made that call. It's part of the document. I recorded him intentionally. I was trying to get him to repeat some of like the kooky or things he would say about like his meat suit or some of the weird like the things about something not being real, the more like fantastical things, I was trying to get him to repeat those things. And it was probably like a 40 minute call,

Starting point is 02:15:51 which I mean, it's actually on my phone, I still have it. I haven't gone back to listen to it, but. You ever think of publishing that whole thing? Oh yeah, oh, I think about publishing everything, my entire journal, all like- You should publish that call unedited, just publish it. That'd be fun. No, I wanna publish that call unedited. Just publish it. That would be fun. No, I want to publish like a lot of stuff. He took all these videos of me also that they

Starting point is 02:16:11 used a couple of clips of and I would, I mean, I would, they're also on my phone. I would publish them all. I would publish everything. In particular, because I release that with your book, it's good. Yeah. I probably, I mean, I've planned to do that. Eventually, if all of that material would be really useful to, um, psychologists or people studying it. So to the extent that it would help other people understand what happened, um, which I think would be meaningful. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:16:41 He's still out there doing weird, weird shit with his clean slate. I get a little annoyed about that. He's got the clean slate. Well, he didn't have a restaurant. He didn't have a persona. Does he have any public persona or no, or we don't know. He got booted off of Twitter. He had to get it to me. He wanted to put him back on. That a passive aggressive state? No, not at all. I find that whole conversation really, really interesting. Whether to put somebody like Anthony on back on Twitter. Well, no, I think, because I used to always think like if only everybody had to identify

Starting point is 02:17:18 as themselves on Twitter. And you could have like a parody account. Or like Leon has an account, but it's very clear that it's me behind it, or sometimes there's like, you know, Devon Nunez's account. Like, so people have parody accounts, but if we could identify who it is, then a lot of...

Starting point is 02:17:37 Why did he get booted off a Twitter? I don't know. But I used to, so in the last few years, I would periodically, probably like once a month, maybe more, I would like look at his Twitter just to kind of see like, well, where is he? And you know, like, just to see what is he up to. And I figured out, I could tell from the photographs that he'd moved to California. And I think he might have told me, one of the last times I spoke to him, that he was gonna move to California.

Starting point is 02:18:08 But, and then I also screen grabbed a lot of stuff that he put on Twitter, and he put these creepy videos of himself on Twitter. At the beginning of COVID, I screen grabbed those. And then one day I went and like, he was, you know, account was suspended. And then I kept going back and it's like been suspended ever since. So he might have started a new account.

Starting point is 02:18:30 And I don't know what it is. Probably. He's probably in California, you're saying. He is in California that's been verified. Somebody who was going to have to interact with him in an official capacity was going to go meet him. And I said, and was nervous about it. And I said, um, he's going to be really likable.

Starting point is 02:18:52 Like you're going to like him. He's probably going to like figure out what you're interested in. Talk sports, talk, whatever it is that he figures out quickly that you're interested in. He's going to be really nice. He's going to seem like a nice guy. And that person later got back to me. It was like, you're interested in, he's going to be really nice, he's going to seem like a nice guy. And that person later got back to me and was like, you're exactly right. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:19:09 So yeah, that's the social path thing, right? Yeah. Just extremely careful. But inside of relationship, that's even more dangerous. So I think that part of the reason I spoke to him was entirely self-serving and strategic after the fact. Well, even before I knew there was ever going to be a documentary, I spoke to him. And I knew how dangerous it was because I knew that in a situation like this, you're

Starting point is 02:19:38 supposed to have no contact, which makes sense. And I understand why, which makes it extra tragic when people have kids with a sociopath or in a narcissistic abusive relationship, if you have kids, then you're tethered, which is tragic. But why are you supposed to avoid conversations because you can get pulled right back in? You have no contact. Yeah, because they'll continue abuse or they'll, you'll be vulnerable to them being able to pull you back in. So I knew that to be the case. But why was it self-serving? Why did you talk to them anyway?

Starting point is 02:20:14 Because he was getting out, he was going to be out free out in the open while I was going to be locked up at Rikers for three and a half months, and the one thing that, you know, if his motivation was to destroy me, then what else could he do to really like, you know, hammer that last nail in the coffin? That would be Leon. And so he would have known that Leon would be staying with my mother, you know, he knows where he's been a lot of time at our house. He knows where she lives. It would be super easy for him to just drive up there, you know, wait for her to let him out. And then, you know, he because out in the country, he can be off leash.

Starting point is 02:21:00 And all he'd have to do was kind of whistle, call column over and he could take him away and do whatever. So I was completely Like gripped with that fear It's not fear for yourself, but fear for Leon Well, I was gonna be at least safe from him, but I was gonna be locked away. So oh Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, sure. So I got it. Got it, got it, got it. I would be powerless to do any things and he would have free rein to go destroy me further by taking or hurting Leon.

Starting point is 02:21:39 And then when he got out, I still, I had unfollowed him from my own account, but Leon had never followed him. So I, I was looking at it. I know I was looking at his, at his account. And just love it. Okay. I just say because Joe has a, his, his, he has an account for his dog too. I just love when people do that. It's so great. Cause I actually pretend, in my mind, for some reason I do think Leon has an account. You forget that there's a human behind it. You're like, oh, okay, cool.

Starting point is 02:22:11 Yeah. I know. I love when people do that. Anyway, so I continue. So Leon didn't unfollow him and what? So I was able to go back and look at his Twitter. And he, he might, he's not really quickly got a phone, but he very quickly started tweeting right after he got out. And, and I was kind of like

Starting point is 02:22:33 fascinated because I didn't know what to expect or what he was going to be saying. And, and, and then you started saying things that I could tell were directed at me, you know, like little things that only I would know. Random things like things that were like the equivalent of like an inside joke that you have. So he was posting things like that. And there's so many things going on at once.

Starting point is 02:23:00 So another thing that would have in a twisted but I think understandable way in sort of a sick way that I was fully aware of is that Here I am having gone through this completely like messed up thing that now I'm in trouble for everybody's looking at and nobody understands right and so there was this unfortunate situation of the only person who understands what I went through is the person who put me through it. Yeah. Right?

Starting point is 02:23:34 So is that, were you also just a little bit seeking closure of some kind? Probably a lot, but also with the awareness that I probably wasn't gonna get it, you know? And I mean, I know for a fact, but also with the awareness that I probably wasn't going to get it. You know, and I mean, I know for a fact I would never get it in the same way that, which is why, which is why I was able to later on, like in the context of recording those calls, I was able to talk to him in this detached way, because I know he doesn't give a shit that like he doesn't give any shits about what he did to my mother or me or anybody or anything just doesn't care.

Starting point is 02:24:14 So he's certainly not going to care if I, you know, he's never going to say like I'm sorry or I did a bad thing or or like he's not going to be affected. Like if I yelled and screamed at him, that would just be frustrating for me. And he would actually probably be gratified by that. So, that gave you that empowered you in being cold and sort of distant. Yes, and I had a prior experience where I had to do the same thing where like if you're if you're able to be very cold and not allow somebody to push your buttons

Starting point is 02:24:53 then you're taking away their power and then that feels empowering or feels like we're claiming a little bit of your power. So in my talking to him, I always had a reason, you know, like there was always, like I didn't want him to hurt Leon or I wanted information or I wanted to know where he was. I'd rather let him think that, you know, maybe he could still manipulate me one day or whatever it was like safer to keep that there then to not know where he was. And if I was going to like be walking Leon and turn the corner and he's standing there. Like if there's a crazy murderer out on the loose, you'd rather know where they are than have no idea. So there are a lot of different reasons. Why was it wrong to have that audio clip at the end of the documentary?

Starting point is 02:25:43 Like what did it... Well, because it implied all kinds of things that were completely not true. And it also just didn't make sense. And it confused people. And, um, so, So for people who haven't watched this boiler alert, is they played the, the clip of, um, so I don't even remember what was said, but it was kind of,

Starting point is 02:26:03 that last, what we spoke about. Yeah. What was the, what was the, I know was kind of... That last, what we spoke about? Yeah, what was the... I know, I only watched, like I still haven't watched it. I only watched the film once. Well, you know, people were looking at me for my reaction and I was crying and it was really weird and strange and surreal and I haven't gone back to watch it again. I feel like I'm just gonna get more annoyed,

Starting point is 02:26:24 but I will eventually. But when the ending happened, I immediately blurred it out. I hate that. I hate that ending. But I sort of assumed a lot of people saw it for what it was. They saw that it was like the director doing a weird thing and that it was kind of just weird and off and like that doesn't make sense. Yeah, it seemed like blue, but so it was basically you joking around like flirting almost. It made it seem like as if we're still friendly. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:26:55 And there's more to come. It's almost like there's going to be a bad vegan too. Right. Or yeah, and then also I mean, it made it seem like, you know, if I was laughing with him that I don't take anything seriously, you know, that I don't take what happened seriously or yeah, or don't feel any remorse. Exactly. Yeah. And they after that, he goes to credits with Wild World, which is a great song. Yes.

Starting point is 02:27:26 Oh, baby, it's a wild world. I never got to hear that because the version I watched didn't have the end credits, but I knew that they used that song at the end and paid a lot for it. Yeah, I was like, oh, well, you got this song. Did you ever say, what was the darkest thing about yourself that you discovered from the book? Oh. We took a tangent about that.

Starting point is 02:27:52 We took a tangent about that. We were right. We were right. You start talking about the G chats. And I think it was, I guess it was trying to understand how I was able to be sarcastic and make jokes at his expense Dirt while all that stuff was going on Ah

Starting point is 02:28:13 So what is that does that have you figured out what that means about you? No No, it just was interesting to look at and also I think, you know, I have a tendency, I have a tendency sometimes to be sort of like jokingly hyperbolic or sarcastic and it's gotten me into trouble. One time I got locked up in the Harlem's like word for a day because of my hyperbole and sarcasm. And like, do you want to the story of that?

Starting point is 02:28:54 Lost in translation errors. That's a heck of a lost in translation error. Yeah. Did you say something funny to a therapist? It was yeah, I mean, I was sort of making jokes about How bad I was feeling but in a hyperbolic way and so then suddenly somebody told somebody and then the loss and Translation and then they were worried that I might kill myself and Then did a wellness check and then tried to call me and I was in the showers. I answered the phone so then Somebody called the police to do a wellness check on me.

Starting point is 02:29:28 Things just escalated. And then not knowing that if I had handled it the right, if I had immediately, if I'd sort of understood what was going on and handled it the right way immediately, I probably could have gotten out of it, but they air on the side of taking you to the hospital no matter what makes a lot of sense. And I didn't know that and it also. So you really leaned into the joke by going to the hospital. I didn't. It's sort of one of those situations that was both comical and tragic because and would actually make a really good, weird how I do this sometimes. Like it would make a really good scene in a, in a filmed version. Who would play you in a film?

Starting point is 02:30:12 Uh, I don't know. There is a thing being made that's in your opinion because, um, because, have you cast the scene yet? No, but there's a thing being made that I'm nothing to do with, which is frustrating and weird. What film about you? About, like, somebody's making a fictionalized drama, and it's frustrating because for all kinds of obvious reasons, it's like annoying and- It can go anyway. It could go anyway. You could be like the bad guy. I never will be. They'll get a bajillion things wrong. And there are also a bunch of people like profiting off of it.

Starting point is 02:30:48 And like, thanks guys. You know, so it's infuriating for all kinds of reasons. Do you know who's playing for the actors? No, I don't even like, I just don't like, I'll inevitably know, but I don't really want to know. The whole thing is just annoying. And also, I've always, people asked me this all the time and I always thought, because of the way everything that happened was such a kind of a slow build and there was so

Starting point is 02:31:15 much nuance and it's kind of really hard to understand that it could only really be done well in like a breaking bad type of series long, like a long series, where like you would be taken through these kind of gut wrenching, it key, slow build things, and then that would make it all make sense. Like that, if it was done that way, it could be done accurately. But the reason why I think, so I made these stupid jokes and then somebody did a wellness check and or have you asked the police to do it well. But when they knocked on my door and came in, it was like a repeat of getting arrested. So I sort of weirdly flashed back to that and then burst into tears, which isn't the appropriate response. If you're trying to diffuse a...

Starting point is 02:32:08 If you're trying to discourage the people coming to do the wellness check from taking you to the hospital, starting to cry is not the right reaction. Well, the thing is, I mean, there's... It's funny, but it could be also through the joke. The joke, the best jokes are grounded in truth and pain, in this case, pain. Yeah. And in truth. And in truth.

Starting point is 02:32:38 Have you ever, if I may ask, considered suicide? Yes. One. Well, I'm kind of a wimp. So, you know, I'm afraid of all of the gruesome ways, but one of the things I remember doing is sort of hoarding medications, which I had when around the time, and before he took me away, because I wanted, like I wanted to, I wanted the safety of a, like an out. And. But around that time, so when I think, when, that's the road trip right before the road trip from hell you were around that time Yeah, what in medication and like I yeah, like if I could get my hands on any sort of weird medication I would I would kind of hold on to it

Starting point is 02:33:37 And so all the chaos I think I knew that it would be hard to do it that way So I didn't thought about it, but I never. And that really tough time, you know, you're thinking about, you're thinking about taking your own life, what gave you hope? What gave you sort of, because the business, the restaurant that you give so much of yourself to is lost. You're lying to everybody. You're in the hole financially.

Starting point is 02:34:16 You're being psychologically trapped, manipulative. How much do you... Go. Go yourself now. You're still there. Please don't see. I made a joke about it. There you go.

Starting point is 02:34:30 But it's always there. It's the Albert Camus, you know, says you basically always have to be aggressively looking for a reason to live otherwise What's the point? Yeah, otherwise it's easy to go the other way because why live is a very good question But anyways is by way of hope by way, you know, it's a dark time It's a dark time if you could sort of look back what Well, give you just strength through this? I think that just having a sort of relentless optimism. And I think too that sometimes people assume that suicide is the result of circumstances, which maybe in

Starting point is 02:35:26 maybe in some cases it is, but I think one of the things that that book explains well is that very often it doesn't have anything to do with circumstances. It's just the pain which book the darkness visible. You know, because people like to create so when somebody commits suicide, people will very often criticize them like it was a selfish act. If they have a family, which most people do, but especially if they have kids. And I think that, um, yeah, everybody's quick to sort of call the person who killed themselves selfish. And, um,

Starting point is 02:36:00 it is, I think that the type of pain that one is experiencing that leads to that is something that most people, and I don't, like, people don't understand, but it's not a selfish thing. It's just, like, quite literally becomes intolerable from what I understand. And it can hit you. It could be slow, it could be fast. Yes. That pain. Yes. That pain. Yes. So I think because for me, it was more just my circumstances were so crappy, but also

Starting point is 02:36:30 I had an awareness that even in Rikers, I knew how wildly lucky I was to have, you know, family, a support system, you know, opportunities and like I'll always be okay one way or another. So I felt lucky that I have that. But, you know, also I want, you know, the shame of everything that happened and, you know, will I ever be able to crawl out from under it and rebuild something? I don't know. So there were certainly times where, especially when I would learn something new, like reading the emails between Mr. Fox, my mother, I just wanted a to he wanted like a meteor hit my particular spot on on the earth right then and there just because it was He was manipulating your mom too because your mom loved you and was willing to give money

Starting point is 02:37:34 Yeah, yeah, and it was really grotesque and so and I feel like it's my fault What's your mom say about this whole situation now looking back? We don't talk about it as much as one would think that we would. Because I feel sickening because I feel like it's my fault and I think she also. Feels sick over it and so we don't talk about it as much as one might think of sometimes I've had to ask questions in the process of writing the book. might think of sometimes I've had to ask questions in the process of writing the book. And then there are other things where like I could ask the questions but I just don't want to because I don't want to put her through that or you know it's not really necessary to ask the questions but there are things that I'm sort of curious about. But when you went on that road trip from hell, what was that like?

Starting point is 02:38:29 What did you guys go first? Vegas? See, drove from New York, where? It was a series of stops at hotel and motel type places. Because I did a similar road trip, but from Boston, I drove across the United States with no destination. I had always wanted to do that. And now I guess I feel like it's one of those things that sort of ruined for me, because

Starting point is 02:38:52 a lot of you can always reclaim it. Yeah, I could. But now, yeah. I did think about like how one day if I did some sort of a book tour or something that I imagined this. Leon and I in a car. It has to be different than, uh, man, book tours. They, if not, if you're not careful, can suck the soul out of a human being.

Starting point is 02:39:24 I think you have to do like a hunter as Thompson style book tour where you miss a bunch of the dates because you got too drunk the night before. But anyway, or I just what I worry about is that I just would be feeling terrible in some way and not be up for it. Up for the trip or for the speaking because for like a certain type of appearance. I think I'm always afraid of that in Committing to things like if it involved Going to a big public event. Yeah, I think you have to be very careful like podcasts is an interesting one I'm always surprised that people just jump on podcasts. They haven't really listened to

Starting point is 02:40:03 And just just do a lot a of podcasts, a kind of book tour. First of all, financially it doesn't make any sense. Like especially going on small podcasts, like what's the benefit? Like really you want to go on just a couple of big podcasts that you're actually a fan of. I guess it's really, really, really important. People don't, like they don't understand the power.

Starting point is 02:40:24 I mean, maybe you just don't understand podcast. But me as a fan of podcasts is like the biggest thing I love listening to is when a guest is a fan, they understand the culture, the style, the sound, the feel of the podcast, they understand the other person, they feel the pain, the hopes of the other person, the weird like quirk to the other person, they feel the pain, the hopes of the other person, the weird like quarks of the other person makes for much better listening.

Starting point is 02:40:50 And ultimately, the appearance itself is not just enough to sell the book, you have to, you're selling yourself as a human being. And that requires having chemistry and all those kinds of things. Yeah, I agree. And podcast appearances exhaust thing. Like you're giving a lot of yourself. It's intimate. It's deep.

Starting point is 02:41:07 I don't know. Anyway, road trip. You don't remember the motels and the hotels along the way. Well, there are a lot of things where I'll remember things that happened, but I don't remember where it was. It's easier to trove without a destination, really. I assume he must have known ahead of time, but he made it seem like, like, oh, funny. We ended up in Vegas. Funny how that happened. But it now,

Starting point is 02:41:35 when I see all the places that we stopped, they were all places with where they were casinos. So there's a lot more casinos around the country than I knew. so there's a lot more casinos around the country than I knew. And they're... So... So he had a gambling addiction? Yes, but I think that... It's not it... So I think that regular people have gambling addictions

Starting point is 02:41:59 and it's a horrible, tragic thing and can destroy their lives. And I know people who... Like regular people can have a gambling addiction, which is explained in the way that addictions are explained. For him, I don't think it was so much an addiction as like a thrill seeking because he could win money, lose money, and he didn't really care. Whereas somebody who has an actual addiction and then all normal people with normal human emotions, would either be elated and relieved or devastated to lose a lot of money. For him, it didn't really care. It was more, again, I think it was more just like a game. Like what was going through your mind here? Like, would you be on the run?

Starting point is 02:42:48 Did you feel like you were on the run? No. Did you know you were on the run? No. So I didn't know that, um, I mean, the thing is the, the restaurant was operating and he took me away and then like, people weren't paid and it all sort of fell apart. Then you weren't checking your texts or any of that? No, and then he had my phone and my email. I did later on get, later on I got a brand new phone with like an empty phone with no existing numbers and it or whatnot.

Starting point is 02:43:25 And so that he and I could communicate when I, you know, I was went to the grocery store or something like that. What was the, what was the reason he had the phone? Like, what was the narrative story that he was taking over your phone? Was it, I mean, like, how, how did you allow that to happen? Or maybe a better way to ask is how did he make that happen? Well, I was conditioned to it before, because before he was always checking my phone, which was wildly infuriating. And I feel like, like.

Starting point is 02:44:07 You fixed it by giving them the phone. Well, I mean, the conditions were different later on, but in some sense, I didn't want my phone because everything, like I was in a state of shock and it was just like, take it, fine, like I give up. Like I guess I'd given up. And so, yeah, I'd give it up. So there was no, I wasn't gonna fight back on anything.

Starting point is 02:44:30 Before when he would take my phone and look through it, it was infuriating, and he sort of forced me to get used to it. And this is again, something that people have been in cults would understand, because it's like they condition you to not react negatively to things that you would normally react negatively to. And like if I was in a relationship, like if somebody I would never ever look in somebody's phone and if somebody did that to me, I would be like, goodbye. I'm pretty sensitive about that. It was very infuriating when he would take my phone and look at it.

Starting point is 02:45:13 It got to the point where not only did I feel like everything I said or wrote or email digitally or whatnot would be read, but he got me to the point of feeling like I was being watched all the time in a non-explainable way. Yeah, what were some of the, you didn't mention them, the documentary touches on some of them. What are some of the fantastical stories? So he mentioned that he might help make Leon immortal. What? All of that was always really vague. I mean, intentionally, like a lot of what he talked about was always very vague, but a

Starting point is 02:45:58 lot of that stuff was very vague and again, like, But convincing. Slowly over time. And a lot of those things too are things that, you know, conveniently, you kind of can't disprove. So it's almost like, you know, people believe in God or religious people believe certain things. And so one could argue why is it that much crazier for me to have been open to the idea that maybe Leon, maybe we do live forever in some way when a lot of religious people have similar beliefs. So one of the other thing is he was what maybe he can correct me, but reincarnated or something

Starting point is 02:46:41 like that or like he acted like he had lived many lifetimes and had all kinds of wisdom from having lived all these prior lifetimes and being aware of it. So was that and it was vague but it was somehow believable or is it just like part of the charm? But it was somehow believable or is it just like part of the charm? Like what How do you how do you not call bullshit? I? Know we're not not necessarily bullshit. I understand when you're smitten in whatever way But like one a little more details proof. I suppose it's easy to just

Starting point is 02:47:29 You know like Put it off for later. Assume that more details will come later, right? I think he's a mentalist or a loose just named Darren Brown and It was on a Joe Rogan podcast. I think Joe interviewed Darren Brown. I think Sam Harris interviewed him. I got really intrigued and then I was looking for other podcasts or maybe Joe interviewed him like right after I may have gone looking for it But anyway, it was in the it was in the conversation with Joe where Darren explains He's somebody I would love to to meet where Darren explains, he's somebody I would love to meet, a mentalist and an illusionist,

Starting point is 02:48:06 because they understand a lot of the ways in which the mind can be manipulated. So I feel like they would, if they looked at everything about my situation, they would be able to understand better how he was able to get me to believe things or go along with things. Because Darren Brown is pretty fascinating what he does.

Starting point is 02:48:25 And he really seems like a very kind person and he's very open about it. And when he was talking to Joey, he said this thing that, and I used this quote in my book. And again, I'm paraphrasing because I don't have it in front of me. But it's like, he says something about how we want to believe the lie because we'd rather believe that it's something amazing than just that ugly and pathetic a lie. And I, whatever he said was said in a much better way, but the point is like, that's, and so he was explaining it in the context of the way that an illusionist or whatever their call is able to pull off certain things. Which is that they're sort of, you know, somebody was about somebody who was watching and watch them watch that person.

Starting point is 02:49:17 Sort of leverage people's tendency to want to believe that something amazing and cool is about to happen versus like this is just a really ugly pathetic lie. So I think that a lot of the things that that Mr. Fox that that he put forward. I couldn't understand it from the perspective of it being a lie because it just seemed too weird and crazy. So I think that this happened sometimes where it just seemed too weird and crazy. So I think that this happens sometimes where you believe somebody because it seems so weird that they would lie about it. I think that there's somebody has, or it's been said sometimes that like the more fantastical the lie, the more believable it is because you don't, you don't believe that somebody would tell that lie. And I think something also that Mr. Fox, people like him are capable of doing is going out and lying in very brazen ways that normal people

Starting point is 02:50:13 would be terrified to do. So that kind of also makes it more believable. So if somebody could go out on a world stage and lie and not kind of feel weird about that or even knowing that it's a lie that can be pointed out as being a lie. And then there's also the the layer of to what extent is this person in some way also delusional themselves and sort of believing their lies because people have asked me that and I wondered the same thing to what extent did he believe some of the stuff he was saying. And I think probably there was some sort of delusional aspect, almost like he was sort of halfway aware of playing his own

Starting point is 02:50:58 sort of virtual reality game, you know, like. Like he was in some kind of metaverse in his brain. So you think you believed some of the things you were saying? In some way, yeah. What are he wanted to? You know, because he wanted to be his own, like, he wanted to be a superhero. You know, he never built anything or created anything or accomplished anything in his life. Yet, you know, so in his own brain, if he could turn himself into like a movie superhero.

Starting point is 02:51:26 It's a nice shortcut. What about the Navy Seal thing? Did that ever get resolved? You know, the lie that he said that he's a Navy Seal. I don't know if he said he was a Navy SEAL or that he implied that he worked with the CIA or then it was like he worked with black ops that is by definition under the radar. So that's obviously a huge red flag now going forward. If somebody first of all, if somebody tells you that information pretty quickly, that's

Starting point is 02:52:02 itself a red flag. But I mean, all right, cross, I'm across that off my list of pick up lines. But you know, conveniently, if he say in some world, he actually did work for like black water, one of those places or. Yeah. places are yeah there I wouldn't be able to just call some place and verify it. Anyway so I think that in some psychological way that I don't understand he probably did in some way halfway exists in this world where he was this you know like fighter and he would say things like, it's because of people like me, that people like you can sleep at night, which is probably a line out of a movie that I've never seen. I feel like a lot of things.

Starting point is 02:52:53 That's a great, that's a great, that's funny. That is a, who said that? That's a really, that's, is that really a line out of a movie? It's not a movie. It's, you know, what would happen at Rikers is when these things would happen where one of us couldn't think of something and you're like, oh, who was that actor in that movie in that thing? No. And so what we do is like, somebody would be on the phone and you'd be like, hey, how are you talking to you? Can you ask

Starting point is 02:53:19 them to look up on their phone? Like, so we'd ask people on the phone or somebody would go make a call and, you know, you'd have to call something and ask them to Google the cast of a movie or something like that. I think you would find jail. Don't ever get arrested or try not to, but I think you would find jail fascinating. Oh, I always wanted to go to jail prison because there's a lot of, I almost didn't know I'll ask you questions about it, but I think I can get a lot of reading done. I got a ton of reading done. Yeah, yeah, yes. I don't remember now.

Starting point is 02:53:49 People attribute this to George Orwell, but they're not sure if George Orwell ever said it. But it's something like, there's a lot of different variations. But we sleep safely at night because of rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would harm us. And there's a lot of variations of this. But basically, we depend our entire society depends on bad motherfuckers who are willing to fight to protect our freedoms, to protect our well-being. And one of the things about the United States is because we're surrounded by water. We don't get to see the violence that's required in part to protect the sovereignty of nations.

Starting point is 02:54:34 You mentioned that I would not to go to prison, but that I may enjoy my time there. Let me ask you, uh, not the the I mean, by the way, I love prison movies. You would find it fascinating. I don't because it's like Still kind of too soon But well, how was your time? You spent three and a half months at Rikers, how was that? How was your experience in prison? How's the food from a chef perspective? Not good, but Rikers was when I got to write. I was arrested.

Starting point is 02:55:13 I think about 10 days in a small town, Tennessee, Joe. Oh, Pigeon Forge is also the weirdest place on earth. Is that a town? Yes, that's the town where I was arrested. Why is it so weird? In the film, I told them, I told them you have to go to Pigeon Ford, you have to go there, you have to go there. And I think I was pushing them because it was going to

Starting point is 02:55:36 potentially be the end of the season. It's like a summertime or it's a tourist destination. And it's so bizarre and weird and trippy that it doesn't even seem real. It seems like a carnival is happening there and not stop. Exactly. I think I say that in my intro that it's carnival-esque and trippy and weird. There's a lot of clowns walking around her.

Starting point is 02:56:06 Not necessarily clowns, but there is a video on YouTube that I, because I got to the chapter where we arrive in Pigeon Forge, and I'll never forget, although I have forgotten, but I remember being like weirdly, like felt like we had entered a different universe driving down this strip and just looking at everything on either side. And I'm wishing that I could remember in more detail like the names of the places or what was there because I wanted to describe it in this chapter. And I was like, I wish somebody, I wish there was like a video of somebody going down the street kind of showing what's on one side.

Starting point is 02:56:44 And then the other side, and I was like, there probably is. down the street kind of showing what's on one side and then the other side. And I was like, there probably is. And there is on YouTube, like I found it. And I watched the whole thing. How does this come up from prison exactly? Pigeon. Oh, okay. So that's the town that I went to jail in.

Starting point is 02:56:58 Oh, great. Intentacy. All right. So what was that like? The food there and some of the conditions, the food made, when I got to, that I was extradited and transferred to Rikers and when I got to Rikers, I felt like it was like

Starting point is 02:57:14 the four seasons in comparison. Oh wow. So, and I really kind of appreciated a lot of things about, about New York when I got, when I got to Rikers, even though there are a lot of things about New York when I got to Writers, even though there are a lot of things that are very scary about it. Where's Writers located? It's a close New York city?

Starting point is 02:57:32 Yes, and in a very kind of almost poetically interesting way, the dorm room where I was there for the three and a half months was one of the ones that faced Manhattan. So I could go across the room and look out the window and see the whole Manhattan skyline. Did a view, which was I remember being shocked by the cost per prisoner per year. Yes. That New York pays like $450,000 or something. I didn't think it was that much. I thought I wrote it down, but either way it is. No, I mean, it's elevated during COVID, just fascinating.

Starting point is 02:58:15 To that, the number I just said. Yeah, during COVID, I felt sick to my stomach thinking about people stuck there. And again, so, Rikers isn't like a long term prison. It's most of the people at rikers are awaiting trial. And they've been arrested but not convicted. And then if you're convicted in your sentence to less than a year, then you put on a different color uniform and you go upstairs to different dorms.

Starting point is 02:58:40 If you're convicted and sentenced to more than a year, you're sent to one of the upstate prisons. So most of the people at Rikers are there in transition. They've been arrested, but not convicted or awaiting trial. So you could be perfectly innocent and you're stuck there, and that happens to a lot of people. Or you could be arrested over some kind of comparatively petty thing or nonviolent thing and stuck there because you don't have as little as $500 to pay bail, which is completely messed up and unjust. And I think most people,

Starting point is 02:59:23 most reasonable people agree that it's unjust, but it's different when you're there and you see those people and you see kind of the anguish. And whether, I mean, I have no idea if they're guilty of what, I mean, I usually don't know what people are there for, what this situation is, but you watch the sort of helplessness set in, because you're kind of powerless there. You have very little contact with the outside world. You have these limited phone calls. And so for people who had kids in a job and an apartment, it's like one by one, those things are lost, or their kids are now being looked after by their abusive ex-husband or something

Starting point is 03:00:03 like that. So watching that is just gut wrenching. And then also knowing that the only reason they're unable to get out is because of a thousand dollars, two thousand dollars, in some cases, five hundred dollars. There were people, so there's all of these tragic cases, but then there was also, while I was there, I mean, if I had had any money, I would have been wanting to bail people out left and right. And then, in some cases, I think there was a woman there snored really loud, and her bail was $500, and I was like, I wish I had a bail or, she just wanted a bail or

Starting point is 03:00:41 out. So, because I'm pretty sensitive to sounds and being in a room with 50 people inevitably So you're in a room with a large number of people. Yeah, there are There are areas there with cells, but a lot of the areas there are Rums with 50 beds so and there are about three feet apart from each other. So, during COVID, there was certainly no social distancing. And that just felt kind of sickening, especially because so many of the people are there for nonviolent things or drug addiction related or mental health issues. How do that view personally, just having spent that time there for three and a half months.

Starting point is 03:01:29 How did that change you? Like, what? Did that have an effect on your mind? How am I mind? Personally, I think I was surprised at how well I adapted and then how it was able to, and then I think I sort of took it at the next level when one of the books somebody sent me was the untethered soul by Michael Singer, and it's very much about like observing your mind and I'm Michael Singer. And it's very much about like observing your mind and that kind of help take it in the next level. So was this like a meditation retreat for you?

Starting point is 03:02:11 Well, it's like it'd be like trying to meditate in the middle of a circus or yeah. In crazy circumstances, because you're never alone. There's nowhere to be alone. And there's always talking. There's noises. There's fighting noises. Chaos. Did you feel in danger? Yes, but I never I never felt terrified there. You know, one of my friends, the bathroom is the scary place because they don't have cameras in the bathrooms. So that's sort of a one has to watch out there.

Starting point is 03:02:53 And I did one of my friends, who I, one of the people I was friends with, they're, she did get beat up a bit in the bathroom one day. A lot of weird shit happened in the bathroom. But it was from my, if you're interested in human behavior and psychology and it can be fascinating to kind of sit there and watch they're saying like you might enjoy prison for that perspective, like just you get to watch human nature. It's like at the, I don't want to say it's worse, but the full variety that it can take. Right. And there was a lot of beauty there as well. I mean, was there love? People being, well, again, depends on the definition of love, but people being,

Starting point is 03:03:40 you know, incredibly generous and kind to each other. Sometimes people singing at night, there was just a lot of, and then there was a lot of hilarious stuff. It's just it's all there. There's like, there's tragic things, interesting things. A lot of people with mental health issues, which is can be difficult to witness. So a very different experience. I should ask you this, but somebody that's currently in prison, Galeen Maxwell. I believe she spent approximately 500 days in isolation. So it's a very

Starting point is 03:04:31 different, different prison experience. But what do you think about her case? What do you think about her and Jeffrey Epstein? She, so her brother, her family, she says that she's a victim. Not the monster. I think this isn't especially fast in case because and I have listened to podcasts about that you know the Epstein situation and there is one that was more focused on her by Vicky Ward that I would definitely listen to.

Starting point is 03:05:09 Vicky Ward is a journalist. I think she'd written an article about Jeffrey Epstein for Vanity Fair, so she got to know Jeffrey Epstein. And then she knew Galein Maxwell from being sort of part of the social circle in which they would have overlapped. Have you, by the way, ever met them since this New York? Do you remember meeting this, you know, Jeffrey or Gullin?

Starting point is 03:05:35 No, I never met them, but they're also very much like this sort of Upper East Side crowd. I did meet Harvey Weinstein once that made me have all kinds of interesting thoughts later. At the restaurant or elsewhere? No, it was weird. It was out on the street. We had this really strange interaction. Knowing what I know now, it was eerie. Also, a headie contacted me after that and made it seem like he could have done something for me. Like, would I have been, you know, say he said, oh, I'm going to finance your whole expansion or something and like come to my,

Starting point is 03:06:14 you know, come meet me at this hotel and then I go to that hotel and then he's like, come up to the room and then I would have been like, uh, you're wondering whether you would have done it. Yes. And sadly, I think I would have. And so I felt a lot of compassion for those who, you know, didn't yell at him and leave or didn't storm out. And because I think what happens in those situations is, you know, there's all kinds of uncertainty in the moment and you sort of freeze. And then you'll, if I'm probably one of those people that would sit there and somehow in the moment, without clarity,

Starting point is 03:06:59 just instinctively feel like somehow I must have done something wrong and it's my fault and and like I led him on and Or just being afraid and then and then you don't know how to deal with it. And so you freeze So I think that You know if you're somebody that maybe was raised differently or you have a lot of self confidence or you might have reacted differently and kind of pushed him away and stormed out. But I am probably not one of those people, but I did not ever meet Jeffrey Epstein, but he seems very straightforwardly, you know, just a classic. The way he was able to charm people,

Starting point is 03:07:44 the way he could able to charm people, the way he could step into these roles. You know, I think he was teaching at Dalton and then just kind of the way he would get himself into the, the academic crowd within Harvard. And I think also MIT, right? He's sort of, so he's playing a role, but he's doing it so well that he fools all these people. And the things that people would, in hindsight, say about him, are just the same things that people say about. It's like you hear the same things over and over again.

Starting point is 03:08:17 You hear the same things that about those people who were taken in by Elizabeth Holmes, is that they were, it was as if he was under a spell, it was as if I was under a spell is something you hear a lot. And so it's like they have this powerful charm that's almost over, it's overwhelming in that they overwhelm your better judgment or they overwhelm your like normal, otherwise normally functioning capacity for rational thought, and they sort of overwhelmed that with their charm. So when you look at, I think it was like James Mattis invested a bunch of money with Elizabeth

Starting point is 03:08:54 Holmes and all these people were involved with her and nobody really did their due diligence where they just sort of trusted her. And Jeffrey Epstein, I think it's still unclear where he got all of his money. But the guy, Waxner, Les Waxner, who had, you know, an enormous amount of money and somehow very quickly turned over management of it to Jeffrey Epstein. And so people wonder like, why would he do that? That's insane. And then other people have commented about that relationship.

Starting point is 03:09:27 Like it was as if he was under Jeffrey Spell. Observers would say, I couldn't understand it. It was as if he was under his spell. And so somebody observing me and Mr. Fox could have possibly said the same thing about me. But it's a bit different because it was not charm. I think Epstein used his charm. And then was probably

Starting point is 03:09:45 very, very, very crafty and getting another thing that people like him do and cults do also is to get you somehow compromised because then they've got you. So I think some kind of usually sex related. Yeah. And with Epstein, certainly, you know, he was known to have cameras everywhere. And so if he got any of these people on camera doing something compromising and they're all very powerful people, then he's got them.

Starting point is 03:10:15 Yeah. And I think he was also very smart to do that, to target people of both parties so that politically that he was able to maintain his power like no matter like nobody wanted him to be totally exposed because then people a lot of people would be exposed. By the way that part you know that's all kind of conspiracy right. Right we don't know that. I so a lot of people believe that and you know, I tend to kind of naturally believe that because that makes sense, but it's also possible that straight up with charisma. I mean, he did record people and there were recordings. So I listened to an interview with a woman who I mean was a girl back then, maybe she was 15 or 16 back then. And subsequently, years later, was able to see some of the video of, I mean, I think

Starting point is 03:11:16 that's a verifiable thing that there were video cameras all over his house. Yeah, the degree to which it was used. Right. We don't know that. And to the degree of how many people were involved and so on, there's all kinds of conspiracies around the man. But the question about her her Galein. So I only know what I know from the inputs, which are the Vicky Ward, it was it podcast, it's a narrative podcast. So it's like an audio

Starting point is 03:11:49 kind of a documentary or journalistic piece that she did and put out. I thought it was really, really well done. I think it's called Chasing Galein. And I listened to that whole thing. I didn't intend to listen to it all. And in one stretch. I thought you know it's good. I mean, it was like a weekend and I basically was, you know, cleaning and doing other things and walking Leon and listening to it. And I got through it pretty quickly. But I got really fascinated by it because I don't know, but I think I feel like I find the whole situation got wrenching because I think Jeffrey Epstein is a straight-up, like straight-up sociopath, like no question. With her, everybody's calling her evil and for her to have enabled and done a lot of the things that she did could potentially

Starting point is 03:12:48 require. One might say that it could require a lack of empathy to be able to do those things knowingly. But at the same time, I think the information that was conveyed in the Vicky Ward piece was fascinating to me because it's clear that at the very least, it's like all of these things could be true. She could maybe be not enough of a good person to have, you know, horribly victimize these young girls and destroy their lives. But she could have all, I feel like I I'm gonna get bashed for saying this, but she could have in some way not quite known what she was doing

Starting point is 03:13:32 or been a bit out of her mind. Like, meaning not, I'm just saying people, I would hope that people would be open to that's to exploring that as a possibility. Well, her family and friends are making that case. They're painting a broad picture of who she is as a human being and showing that she couldn't have done any of those things without being systematically manipulated. That's there.

Starting point is 03:14:06 Right. What I listened to in that podcast about her relationship with her father, how her father died, her things about her childhood, and then Epstein coming into her life and basically pushing all those buttons and becoming the father figure. And so she would be in a position of kind of always wanting his approval. And just the way that things that are described about the way that she was so subservient to him in this kind of astonishing way that seems really weird and abnormal. And yet, I think she had a lot of money and connections.

Starting point is 03:14:53 And I think she lost the money, but had all the connections. Either way, there was a lot that Agton, that Epstein gained via his relationship with her like eight-hundreds. So it makes sense that he would have manipulated her. He manipulates everybody. So he, without question, I think one could argue, he definitely manipulated her. And again, I want to be like careful not to be saying like that's an excuse for what she did. I just think that that's an excuse for what she did, I just think that- That's one possibility.

Starting point is 03:15:26 It's important to explore these things and be open to them as opposed to just broad brush painting her as a horrible person. I mean, because people could say that based on things they've read or things that I did, like I'm a horrible person, and it's very different because what she did involved, young girls whose lives were destroyed.

Starting point is 03:15:52 But I think that people could be a bit open to understanding how somebody could be manipulated. There's a psychologist that I'm friends with that I got to know after I watched him on Leah Remini's show. So Leah Remini is the actress who was in Scientology, got out and has really been speaking out about it and trying to expose what they're all about and how diabolical that organization is. And a lot of people are exposing them and, you know, doing this type of work. And so she had this guy on her show who was in the moonies. And his name is Steve Hassan. And so he was in a cult. And then he got out again by extreme

Starting point is 03:16:42 circumstances. He got in a car accident and almost died. And that's what ended up getting him out of the cult that he was in. But really smart guy was targeted when he was young, got pulled into the moonies. But watching this interview of him on her show, he said, he's talking about his experience and he said, if they had told me to kill somebody I would have. And I, that, in that moment made me cry, but I also felt like I understand that and not that if Mr. Fox had told me to kill somebody, I don't think I would have. But again, I understand how it could get to that point. So that makes me feel like with her,

Starting point is 03:17:28 like I would be curious what Steve Hossin would think kind of analyzing the entire situation. Because it's hard to understand that unless you've been in it. And I understand with him how he could have said that if they had told me to kill somebody I would have. That's pretty intense. I mean, that's pretty extreme. And it's interesting how you can get into it

Starting point is 03:17:46 How far you can go just one day at a time like gradually? right just Like the frog in the boiling water. Yeah, so fascinating. I mean all of these cases are fascinating like patty herds that whole story well, I'm just also I just It's already a while ago Well, I'm just also, I just, uh, was a 30-a-while ago reread, the rise involved the third rake. I've been reading a lot, a lot about Hitler and Gobern. For a long time working on a series about Hitler and the third rake because it, for

Starting point is 03:18:20 me, it's like returning so much of my family was destroyed or impacted by this time in history that it is somehow a way to find out more about myself as going back to that time. Have you ever thought about inherited trauma? This, this sounds not to mock people, but this sounds like a thing that, um, like a woke thing, like a, like a woke thing. Yeah. I don't mean it that way at all, but I get it because I sometimes, now when I say, now I almost have to put air quotes when I say something's triggering because I feel like I'm using a word that's now like overused or used and less. So now when I say something's triggering, it's like, I use it.

Starting point is 03:19:14 Yeah, it's funny because good words get taken up and then they get this over. People are overusing gas lighting. And I worry that that would happen with sociopathy. Like I think people need to understand sociopathy. I think it's critical for humanity that people understand it. Yeah, so just because you're being an asshole doesn't mean your sociopath exactly.

Starting point is 03:19:34 And I feel like it's going to be this thing where now everybody is going to start calling everybody else a sociopath. And it's like, oh, you know, and right now everybody calls everything gas lighting. If somebody's lying, it's like gas lighting. I have to talk. we started talking about, already forgot fluff. Is it fluff?

Starting point is 03:19:48 Is fluff, right? Fluff? Yeah. Okay, so that was great. Doesn't need discovery for me. What, let's talk about food a little bit, if we can. You know what, let's talk about restaurants first. What, that's the fascinating part of the story

Starting point is 03:20:04 before anything else, which is opening exceptionally successful restaurant in NYC, New York City. What's that take? What does it take to open up from the very beginning, from the idea stage to the launching it, both the finances and the skill of actually getting people super excited by it and then running it all that chaos. I mean to me, am I over-remanticizing, but it seems like New York City is a really tough place to launch a restaurant in. Yes, very well. I think because it's extremely competitive and the standards are so high. So I think that's why there are so many good restaurants

Starting point is 03:20:46 in New York because if they're not good, they're not going to survive. So even like you could walk in so what looks like a hole in the wall and it's going to have amazing food. That happens a lot. So what was the menu? So was it a raw, what was it vegan and raw from the beginning? Yeah, it was. And raw means what? Now I'm getting thrown back to all the interviews I did when people asked me these questions. It was so long ago. At the time, it's like being vegan. So nothing was cooked over roughly 118 degrees. It was this very like the world of there were people who are hardcore raw foodists and and there's also people who are hardcore vegans and I was never any of those things. So I think what we did you weren't the hardcore part or you weren't but you

Starting point is 03:21:41 like what parts of your life were you're a vegan? Are you still a vegan? Do you meet? Do you are you a vegetarian? Are you raw? Good question. I don't apply labels. So none of those labels would apply because it's male and female. That's I those I'm beyond those labels myself as well. But I'm a I've labeled myself as well. But I'm a carnivore most of the time. There you go. The opposite of being an unfortunately. But no judgment, I think that's a beautiful thing to be as vegan.

Starting point is 03:22:15 Likewise, I think that it's people who are very adamantly one way or the other. I think that after all my years in this world and in this world and general and also consuming an enormous amount of inputs and podcasts about health, like I love listening to different points of view. So I love when like somebody is arguing vegan and then somebody is arguing carnivore and like, or even with other issues, I like listening to what other people, you know, opposing sides, assuming they're both, you know, intelligent, interesting sources.

Starting point is 03:22:50 Especially when they're, I love it when they're sort of really testing that diet, meaning their athletes or in some way really testing it, not just like vaguely saying what's healthy or not for you, but like really what is life like under this particular diet? Yeah and I think that probably everybody's different and so in the same way that some people tolerate like some people can't tolerate nightshades or some people can't tolerate certain spices or some people can't tolerate gluten or some people thrive off of this or that. And I've heard it said and discussed that there's a great deal to sort of what your body's used to, what your ancestors ate, where because it seems like the human body is pretty adaptable. So you can adapt to eating a certain type of food. And so that if your family comes from a certain part of the world

Starting point is 03:23:49 where certain things aren't grown or more meat is eaten, or because there's people who are vegan their entire lives and they're incredibly healthy and they thrive, and there's athletes and there's people like Rich Role who I like who's vegan and an athlete. But it might be something where that's working really well for him, but it wouldn't work well for somebody else. And I think there's also an element of people

Starting point is 03:24:12 who try these things and then feel really good or feel really bad. And they make a conclusion based on that initial period of time when it might be something where it makes you feel really good temporarily, but then over time you're going to be depleted of certain things. And then we also live in a world where like our soil is depleted and there's a lot of processing that takes out of foods, a lot of things that we need. So I just think that there's no kind of one right answer. I think you can look at it

Starting point is 03:24:44 from just a health perspective and then you can also look at it from like a morality and ethics perspective and then also like what's the impact on the environment and all those things are important. And I think that I've watched a lot of films and things and for a while right after that. I might think, oh my god, I can't believe I ate this thing last week and now I'm going to go back to being a hundred percent vegan because I just watched this thing and it's fresh in my mind and now I'm thinking about it in a certain way. But then over time, that sort of fades and then you start to get a bit more loose. For me, I will end up eating a lot of things that aren't vegan, usually in the context where I'm not adding to the consumption of it. So like at Rikers, most of the meat there was kind of weird and fake, but there was like

Starting point is 03:25:38 a chicken every Thursday and Sunday. There was actual chicken like the leg. Was that the most exciting thing for people? Not for people. Oh yeah, and then the most fights broke out on chicken days. There was like heightened. Thursday and Sunday said chicken day. So that was the most real meat you're getting is the chicken.

Starting point is 03:25:59 Yeah, a lot of the stuff. Chicken breast or dark, dark, white or dark meat. Dark is the the leg and the thigh. And it was cooked surprisingly well, and so I would always eat it. I don't know. I mean, it's there and it's not, from a health perspective, one could say, well, that's probably the shittiest of the shitty chickens that are full of antibiotics and hormones and terrible things.

Starting point is 03:26:24 So it's not optimal from that point of view. But it's like if it's otherwise going to be thrown in the trash, then, yeah, you're not adding to it. Right. Or, you know, like I've been drunk at a party and eaten a bunch of stuff that one would think I would never eat. Yeah. But it's not like I ran to the store and bought it or went to a restaurant.

Starting point is 03:26:44 Or Sam, liquor makes me eat things I shouldn't be eaten. Oh yeah. Or maybe should. Well, I like life is as you wrote me in the email life is complicated and fascinating and so was our decisions when we're drunk. I actually am a big fan of 7-Eleven. I go there sometimes late at night to think about life, and I'll eat whatever the stuff they have. I also think it's fascinating how our bodies intuitively know what, if you're like quiet enough, and you think about like what you're craving. Yeah, I think that's the thing. As long as it's not like, if you're craving like Some process junky food. That's probably something that's not quite functional

Starting point is 03:27:27 But if you're create like so sometimes I'll I'll I'll be like I must have avocado or like I'll want to eat an entire parsley salad and then it's happened. I went through a phase where um, and here I'm like do I say this out loud? I went through a phase of are you gonna say to say it? Where I was crying out now, I have to say it, where I couldn't get enough, I don't know where it started, like, whose house I was at or whatever, but grass fed butter. I just, I was like, I could tell that my body wanted whatever was there. And so I suppose I could have investigated it and thought, like, well, what's in there? Is it like vitamin K vitamin D? What is it in the grass fed butter because it wasn't regular but like regular butter? Ew, no, but like this grass fed butter like I felt like I just wanted I needed it So there's probably something in there and maybe I could have gone and just taken a lot of vitamin K and then not eat in the butter but

Starting point is 03:28:21 But there is something in there. It's fascinating. I had that last night actually with, I went to Gorshish's store and I had a craving for tomatoes. I was like, what the hell is this? Like what, I don't, I think it was weird. I should listen to that and then just get a bunch of tomatoes, because it's probably something in there. It was like, it felt right. When I was little, my mother,

Starting point is 03:28:43 no, but that's exactly what I was saying. Is that somehow your body knows without you knowing? And today I have zero interest in tomatoes. Yeah, did you eat the tomatoes there? Yeah, yeah. Well, then you probably, I ate way too many, but that's all right. Or maybe not enough.

Starting point is 03:29:00 There you go. See, you were saying? Anyway, I think these things like shift and change, and there's not a right answer, and then there's something where one person might do well on something, another person doesn't. Or you might do well on something for, maybe if I ate a bunch of liver, I'd feel better because I'm getting vitamins that I'm lacking. But then once I get them, I'm fine, and I don't that I that I'm lacking. But then once I get them I'm fine and I don't need that anymore. And I could potentially get those from other sources or um

Starting point is 03:29:33 but yeah when I was little I used to crave my mother said I craved um not craved but she said I would always eat sardines but I wouldn't eat the pieces I would only eat the whole ones, which have the bones in them. And I used to chew on chicken bones and try to eat egg shells when I was like a little. So I think all of those things have calcium and other minerals and commons. There's probably something there that I need it, because you think as a little kid,

Starting point is 03:29:59 I wouldn't be drawn to oily fish and bones and egg shells. Yeah, it's interesting because you're saying the explanation for the cravings wouldn't be drawn to oily fish and bones and egg shells. Yeah, it's interesting because like you're saying the explanation for the cravings is probably the nutrients you're getting. But when you're imagining the craving, you're not obviously imagining the nutrients, you're imagining the texture, the taste, the feel,

Starting point is 03:30:18 the, I mean, a lot of the things that we actually experience as we're eating, that's our brain probably tricking us. Right, but do you love tomatoes? Well, I think we determined that love is possible to define. So the more you're extremely fond of, do you think tomatoes are like one of the most delicious foods?

Starting point is 03:30:38 No, no, but maybe- But yet you crave them. Maybe it's generational, because it's a big Russian thing with potatoes and tomatoes, because it's good with vodka salted. We were talking about the menu and the early days of the restaurant you were in New York. So what was on the menu? What kind of foods were you playing with? Do you remember, was that one of the challenging things is putting together, because you're like crafting a new thing in New York, where it's extremely competitive.

Starting point is 03:31:12 Right. Well, over time, it got easier and easier, and then also I had, you know, I wasn't coming up with new dishes. It was the people that worked there. So I feel like if I could take credit for something, it would be recognizing talent and you know, and when dishes were developed, this is when I was there on my own. So it was opened with Matthew and Jeffrey and then within a year, Matthew was out and Jeffrey was still involved as like the, you know, the corporate sort of side of it. but then over time, I separated from that infrastructure

Starting point is 03:31:48 as well, and then was completely on my own. And in part, I did that because I was growing one lucky duck on the side, and that was growing and growing, and I knew that was something there. And yet, the two businesses were completely intertwined. And so potential investors would come at me me and they would see this very messy situation where I own one lucky duck and Jeffrey Chaturou on the restaurant and how do we move forward

Starting point is 03:32:13 from there and then people would say I should shut down the restaurant and just focus on one lucky duck. And I wanted them all to be together under one umbrella and to move forward where everybody's incentives were aligned. And what was the magic? Why was it so successful so quickly, would you say? I want to have jokingly but not joking, but sort of say that it was about the love and the food and the space. Oh, can you define love? But it's, there was something special. So I, when people ask me about opening a restaurant, I say,

Starting point is 03:32:46 I don't want to get back in the restaurant. This is unless it's the same restaurant in the same space. Because there was something about that space that felt, um, I guess felt magical for lack of a better word. And the energy of a lot of the people there. And I think that if people really cared about it. And so for whatever reason, it just there was an energy about the place. Would you ever do it again? Yes. You have a considerate space.

Starting point is 03:33:20 That's a tough thing in New York, but you're thinking in okay, well, it's there. It's there Let me ask you this question. I've been searching for that myself like asking myself this question if I you know the last meal question like what's the best meal you've ever eaten in your life like if you had if I had to murder you At the end of this and you get one meal, but you can travel anywhere in the world. What would you eat? It's one of those questions where I feel like I should have an answer prepared. No, it's too difficult to sort of pick favorites, but if somebody would force you to choose you have to- I was eating something once and I had the thought

Starting point is 03:34:05 that if I was gonna die, I would come here and order plate after plate of this and eat this. Do you remember what it was? Some diner and the middle, so nowhere? No, it was pure food and wine was on Irving Place and then the kitchen connected to the one like a juice bar which had an entrance on 17th Street.

Starting point is 03:34:25 So it was kind of like this L shape and then there was a huge garden in the back. On the corner was Casamono and Bar Haman, which is Mario Batali and Joe Bustionic were behind that. And it was very focused on meat, but also like organ meats and strange unusual. And it's restaurant. Wow, that's a good reviews. Yeah, it was really good. This is just a funny that we surrounded it,

Starting point is 03:34:50 but bar humong was this tiny little bar. And I went in there once with Tobin, late. And I don't know why we ended up going there, but it was right before they closed and drank red wine and they had tomato bread and it's just like a baguette, although it's a Spanish red, whatever, it's like a bread like a baguette like a thin that they toast and I think they rub it with garlic and they don't even put tomato slices on it. It's like these

Starting point is 03:35:22 rubbettens the tomato juice is all over it. It was just bread and tomato juice and probably some garlic flavor and really good salt and red wine and we sat there and ordered a plate, ate it, ordered another one, ate it, ordered another one. I think we had like six plates and I remember sitting there thinking I could just eat this until my stomach bursts. And then, and so if this is like, if somebody was like, what's the last, I would just want to sit there and eat plate after plate after plate after plate. If you went back there and ate the same thing, it wouldn't taste nearly as good. Like, was there something magical about that night about the way that bread was made on that night, the way you felt at that night, the wind,

Starting point is 03:36:09 something, or do you think, like, where's the power from that food come from? Is it the food itself? Or is it the environment? I'm sure it's both, but like, if somebody brought a plate of it here right now, it would be completely delicious. Yeah. But it might not feel as kind of... Not that it felt magical, but it was the whole warmth of the experience and the red wine and... See, I didn't know it in Texas right now, so it's different.

Starting point is 03:36:39 And I keep forgetting and thinking it's late at night. Yeah, we're surrounded by... This whole place is anti-Huberman, there's no light. Well, it's pro-Huberman if it's in the afternoon or the evening, except for these bright lights. If they were lower down, if they were like down below, then they're hitting the tops of our eyes,

Starting point is 03:37:00 but it's the light coming from above that's destructive at night because it's hitting the bottom of your eyes. So it's the light coming from above that's destructive at night because it's hitting the bottom of your eyes, so it's like mimicking the sun, which is signaling your body that it's time to be awake. So as much as possible. So I do this in the evenings, I shut off all the overhead lights, I try to dim the lights as much as I can, and I turn on like a lamp versus an overhead light. Are you also doing the caffeine thing like like not consuming much caffeine late before bed? Oh, I can't.

Starting point is 03:37:28 Yeah, I usually don't have caffeine late. I try not to have it. So ideally, I drink into the night caffeine. 2 p.m. would be my last. I wouldn't, ideally I wouldn't drink coffee after two, but plenty of times I do. What the late? Especially if I haven't had midday coffee,

Starting point is 03:37:46 then I worry I'm gonna get a headache. That makes you way more responsible than me. Let me return to love. What do you think makes for a good romantic relationship? Given your experience. I mean this question. I think a mutual respect is a big part of it. Mutual respect. That's interesting. Well, and understanding it in a way that you want what's best for the other person, not in a way that you would sacrifice yourself for them necessarily, but in a very healthy way.

Starting point is 03:38:26 So I think a healthy relationship is where, you know, you want what's best for the other person. So I always find it tragic. Like say you started dating somebody who then would get jealous or upset if you were spent too much time working on something, right? But that's like your life. So if you're working on some robotics thing and you're having some breakthrough

Starting point is 03:38:51 and so you just want to spend a lot of time wherever you spend a lot of time doing those things. And then that other person got all bent out of shape and it became like a competition. That to me seems very unhealthy because if somebody, if it was, if it was like a genuine, healthy love, she would want you to be doing those things. Yeah, that's a good observation, but to me, I think the way to achieve that is actually, or the easiest way to achieve that, at least for me, is actually legitimately be excited by the things the other person is excited by.

Starting point is 03:39:34 So like, not in some generic sense, it's good for them to be doing the robotics thing. Like it's more like you become a fan of all the cool things that they're doing in that life. So like, I definitely have this. It's more like you become a fan of all the cool things that they're doing in that life So like I definitely have this I somebody told me recently there's a term for this, but I love like watching other people like succeed be excited about shit

Starting point is 03:40:01 Just like I like celebrating other people like it's fun for me to watch people do the thing they all have done. So like I you know in some sense that's reinvigorating to me and exciting to me. And so one of the things for me in a relationship is like you get excited by watching another person do the thing they're excited about. It's not like I intellectually know it's good for them to have their own thing and they they you know it's like I legit get excited by their own thing. That's what I mean. It's like that person would be excited because you're excited. But they would I think the easiest way to achieve that is actually be like one of my try and's like, it's not like saying that you should be excited. It's like you all can't help yourself would be excited. That's what I think.

Starting point is 03:40:49 Right. But I think that's possible, but it's possible for that to be the case for somebody that like might have an appreciation for what you're doing, but isn't like that's not what that person's going to go spend their time on themselves. Yeah, they were by themselves. Yeah. Right. So they might the other person might, you know, be really good at a musical instrument that requires a lot of practice and you're not interested in playing that musical instrument, but you appreciate the beauty of the music and understand that that person is getting something out of it. So you would be excited when they get a chance to practice or or. So it's that kind of a... Do you think love should be simple or complicated in a relationship?

Starting point is 03:41:32 Well, it might be inherently complicated. I may have asked you when the exact same question. Forget what he said. I thought it was interesting when you asked Elon about love. What do you say? I thought it was interesting when you asked Elon about love. Oh boy, yeah, he that's a That's that's that's gonna be conversation number like seven that he actually answers it Well, what was interesting that I found admirable was this sort of like a duty to humanity I think you asked about it not in in a person, but about the work. And so it was like, it was like a to do, to put all this energy, to try to kind of like move things forward, knowing that he will probably die before it gets there. You're talking about like something related to the science of rocketry.

Starting point is 03:42:23 Yeah. He's kind of a rocket scientist. But whatever you were asking him about whether something could be accomplished, and he said, yes, but not in his lifetime, but he's going to keep pushing it forward anyway. So I felt like that was a really, you know, to put so much of yourself into something, just to kind of move the baton forward for humanity was a struck me as an admirable Thing, you know, there's no great reward in terms of you're gonna You know, you're gonna see that invention happen or you're gonna see Mars colonized or whatever it is

Starting point is 03:42:59 But you'll you're willing to put in all the work and brainpower to try to push it along but you'll you're willing to put in all the work and brain power to try to push it along. I think about the biggest possible impact on the world. Just thinking about humanity I think all of us when we do cool things are contributing to humanity. And it's good to think of it that way when you run a restaurant and make all the people happy. I know that's part of that is good to think big like that. And Elon does definitely. But when I ask him about love, I'm just knowing him personally now.

Starting point is 03:43:33 I'm asking about the personal question about love, but I'm giving him the freedom to escape it, which he always does. That's very generous. Yeah. Because I don't want to try it, but I understand it's a difficult. So he's better at solving engineering problems than talking about love. Yeah, I think he's really good at is going to the joke. So for him, you know, for him, love and all those kinds of things, especially those kind of cliché

Starting point is 03:44:08 sounding things are the stuff of memes. It's the stuff, the easiest way you can talk about it is humor. The same with trauma, like personal trauma, the easiest stuff for him to talk about is laugh about it. He's been very tough, privately or on podcast to talk about personal, like difficult stuff. And for me, obviously, that's often the most interesting stuff as humans. Like, where's your darkness?

Starting point is 03:44:38 But for him, it's tough. And for a lot of people, it's tough. But it's important to go there. Maybe first in the privacy of your mind. And I think bringing it back to the relationship thing is wanting to understand and accept those things about somebody else. I mean, sort of cliche to say that you can't change somebody. And you don't want to also try to change yourself for somebody, but you can figure things out and be willing to make adjustments and navigate for the sake of something working. And sometimes that comes from understanding,

Starting point is 03:45:21 which might require a lot of effort and open-mindedness of somebody is kind of very different from you. Yeah. And being fragile yourself, revealing your flaws, and getting to learn about theirs, and getting to see the beauty in them, because that's the good stuff. Or if the flaws are too much of a red flag, then you walk away. That's the good stuff. Or if the flaws are too much of a red flag then you walk away, that's the hard stuff. You either, the red flags might be the thing

Starting point is 03:45:50 that you actually get to love deeply because they're a flawed human or it might be the reason to walk away quickly. And you don't know. It's a gamble. If it's a red flag, then it, by definition, is something that's telling you

Starting point is 03:46:05 to walk away. If it was just like something about their character that's challenging, you could appreciate that or understand it, but it's not something that they're intentionally trying to use to deceive you. I think red flags, I guess,'s more about manipulation and or like somebody's kind of extreme dysfunction or something would be red flags. But I think there could be things that are quirky or weird or even dark about somebody

Starting point is 03:46:37 that are acceptable. Yeah, but they might look like red flags. Right. If there's someone crying on the subway, that's a red flag for me. That she might be like an emotional basket. Yeah, this is it. I mean, it's crazy person.

Starting point is 03:46:53 Yeah, that's true. But, you know, it could also be, there could be a deeper story to it. So that's what I'm trying to tell you. That's true. All right. What advice would you give to young folks today if they want to launch a restaurant in New York City

Starting point is 03:47:09 and then message somebody on Twitter? Before you finish the sentence, I was about to say read a lot of books. But then you said, because you said what advice would you give to young people today? And I was like, read a lot of books. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:47:23 And then you got to the restaurant part. Yeah, no, I mean, that's I was joking about the restaurant. I said, yeah, about life, I would say. Not just about career as a restaurant tour, but just in life, how to be successful, how to be, how to live a life that can be fulfilling, and how to live a life that can be proud of. I read a lot of books. It's complicated because I've you figured it out yet. No, but I

Starting point is 03:47:53 think self-awareness is key, but I also think There's some of those things where like people kind of have to learn their own lessons, but I Think in part because I never had kids and I never wanted kids, I feel like through my book, I keep thinking that I want a lot of the lessons that I learned to be useful to other people, particularly younger people. And in many cases, younger females to maybe understand themselves a little better along the way, because I think that a lot of mistakes that I made and things that happened

Starting point is 03:48:30 are things that I did that I'm embarrassed about, or things that I stepped into that I wouldn't have otherwise stepped into were allowed to happen, were a result of, in many cases, like insecurity, like a lack of confidence. And I think in the context of moving forward with relationships being really careful to understand

Starting point is 03:48:59 why you're there, or if you're repeating a pattern, that's something that is sort of cliche, but I feel like it's very, I mean, aren't cliche, cliches are things that are true, they're just repeated a lot, but they're, but anyway, the idea that people repeat patterns, right? So I think that's very true. Right. And so to be aware of that and to figure it out sooner rather than later so you don't keep stepping into the same thing over and over again. You mentioned giving yourself time and space to think. Sometimes, it's impossible.

Starting point is 03:49:37 Don't let momentum of life carry you away. And I think for me, one of the things that would have scared me about having kids as the chaos of it, or not being able to handle it. But I think that's just me, not most people. You ran a restaurant. I know. But just probably why I would go home at night

Starting point is 03:50:00 and lie in the floor and cry. Or... Call if indeed you do that. What's... Do you like a good cry? at night and lie in the floor and cry. Or... Call off and do you do that? Um... What's... Do you like a good cry? I do. Music usually or...

Starting point is 03:50:12 What's... Can you paint a scene? What? In just in general? Yeah, as there are candles. I cried this morning. Okay. Not intentionally and not for long.

Starting point is 03:50:21 Happiness or just overwhelmed. It was like a... You know, I looked a little bit at Instagram and saw, what was it? Very often they're like, like these little animal rescue stories or whatever, but this was a, this guy Matt who used to be my trainer years ago and put this little montage video to music. That was interesting. If there hadn't been music, I probably wouldn't have cried. But it was showing his wife having their second child, not showing it, but like the sort of before

Starting point is 03:50:53 and then, you know, the baby in her arms right afterwards and then bringing the baby home. It was this very short little clip, but set to music. And I watched that and started to cry. But like, it's not, I didn't sob or anything. So, I think I cry easily. Interestingly, though, in actual, horrifically tragic things, or when they apply to me, I might not cry, and then people find that unusual.

Starting point is 03:51:23 And that was in the film that, I I was my sister, my father described that when my parents got divorced, I didn't cry and I just, whereas my sister balled her eyes out and I didn't cry at all ever and I just didn't say anything, I want to talk about it. And you know, like when I was sentenced to jail, I didn't cry. So a lot of times when something really big happens, I get a little bit weirdly. I don't know, but I very often. It's too much to feel it all directly. So you kind of cry it out later, slowly. Right, maybe years later.

Starting point is 03:52:05 Maybe years later. Yeah, and maybe that's what I'm really crying about when I cry at these little videos or something. Yeah. I don't know. But I'm glad for it because I feel like it always feels like kind of a relief. Well, let me ask this because it's interesting what you would say. Do you have regrets about things in your life? Like, what do you regret? If there's a one day you could live again, more, which day would you pick? Like, relive and

Starting point is 03:52:38 make different choices? Well, like one obvious thing could be the day that I let Anthony Strange in the door if I had instead, you know, if at any time early on I'd instead just push him out. You know, that my life would be wildly different. It's hard to... So that's the biggest mistake of your life. It would say just letting Anthony to your life. I think yes, I think one could argue that's the big mistake.

Starting point is 03:53:09 But then at the same time, you never know because like when I was in a sort of a dark relationship that then led to the restaurant, am I having the one lucky dark brand. So I felt like that darkness, it's like if you married a horribly abusive person but you had a beautiful child and then you go on and you have this beautiful child, do you think well if I hadn't been with that horribly abusive person I wouldn't have this beautiful child so I wouldn't go undo it. So I feel like a lot of things are like that and I guess I could optimistically hope that there are good things down the road where I'll think, well, I'm here and I'm grateful for it. And therefore, I'm grateful for the things that got me here, which include a lot of dark

Starting point is 03:53:54 things. It's hard to say because a lot of people were hurt in my case, but I am optimistic that I can make those things up. And there also hurts that were, I mean, in some cases emotionally, but also very much financial. And I feel like those are numbers. And the employees were all paid back. So anybody else that is out money because of everything that happened isn't somebody that's like not able to feed themselves. Everybody, most of those people have plenty of money and it's not a big deal, but I still

Starting point is 03:54:30 want to repay all of it. And it's numbers, it's not like nobody died. And sometimes when I think about my own challenges, they feel sort of inconsequential in comparison to other things going on in the world. So, you know, like, yes, it's hard being humiliated or it's hard to have people say nasty things about you on Twitter, Instagram, but really who cares? Because that's just words and things and I'm not like fleeing my home and watching people get shot. So and they're still out of this darkness are out of this you can still that you still have a lot of time to create something beautiful in the world. Yeah, maybe something even more beautiful than you've ever done before. I am optimistic.

Starting point is 03:55:25 And I also feel like, you know, part of the reason I like having these conversations is because I feel like people will learn stuff from my shitty experiences to avoid going through their own shitty experience. And I've heard a ton of that from a lot of women and some men, writing to me saying that they went through something similar or nobody understood. And my story helped them or might help them get somebody else out of a situation. So making it useful feels good.

Starting point is 03:56:00 So through all of this, Leon was with you. He recently had a birthday. March, I guess. Yes, 12. Yeah, I made him a phenomenal meat cake or a layered cake that involved a variety of animal foods. He's not a vegetarian. No, he's not. But I also give him like really high quality stuff. He's not a vegan or vegetarian. Let me ask you a hard question. Do you think about the tragic

Starting point is 03:56:31 fact that dogs live much shorter lives than us humans? Do you think about his mortality? All the time. I kind of try not to, but all the time. Because you told me in traveling here to Austin, Texas, you're not in the habit of leaving Leon by himself. Well, he's not by himself, but I, no, I haven't been away from him in certainly since before COVID. So I'm not used to it. And so I, people always say that dogs have, like that dogs have attachment issues or get separation anxiety,

Starting point is 03:57:17 but in my case, at least it's like, I think he's fine. I'm the one that is, you know, he's like fine. I'm the one that gets anxious you know, he's like fine. I'm the one that gets anxious about it Being away from him You're the one who acts like a dog when you you come back and you're super excited to see him Yeah Floor and wiggle your tail and drool and all that kind of stuff

Starting point is 03:57:38 But do you think about the fact you know that you might lose Leon soon? I do I think about it all I soon. I do, I think about it all. I mean, I try not to think about it, but I can't. You're scared of it? Yeah, it's scary, but then I also just try to understand that it's inevitable. And I mean, yeah, assuming I'm still around, then that's, I think one of the things about having

Starting point is 03:58:04 adopting a dog or caring for an animal, unless it's one of those animals that lives a really long time, I just found out that parents live an extraordinarily long time. But they're annoying. So you get, it's a trade-off. The ones we love live a short time, the ones that live a long time. So I just think it's one of those things that you just know what's going to happen and it's just part of life. And I think it's one of those pains that's, it's painful, but you just kind of have to go through it.

Starting point is 03:58:40 And what's the alternative? You're not going to, it's like saying you would never want to fall in love because of the heartbreak That's gonna inevitably come. So some people do that. They just avoid it. Exactly. Ever. You're saying, screw it. I'm diving right in. Yes. It was all worth it.

Starting point is 03:58:55 What about your own mortality? You think about yourself dying? Less so than I was before. I think I wrote about that and I put this letter, Dear Mr. Fox, online, which I never intended to do, but I did because of all the misconceptions about the film and our relationship. And so I put this thing up online that I'd written on my phone, on multiple subway rides. And at the end of it, I talk about, especially then when it was the height of everything was gone, and what do I have to live for?

Starting point is 03:59:29 I noticed and wrote about how differently I felt about things, whereas I used to be afraid. I used to have a healthy fear of being pushed in front of a train, because that happens in New York or anywhere. Or I had a healthy fear of, like, I don't know, walking down a dark street at night, but I noticed that at the time, I didn't really have those fears,

Starting point is 03:59:54 because I was like, yeah, what do I, like what do I have to lose, like who cares? You know, I don't have anything anymore what I have to lose. So I certainly feel much less that way, but something about those feelings lingered where I'm less afraid of it, or more, just less afraid of it, but hoping it's not some sort of a gruesome way. I mean, some people are really afraid of flying, and I feel like, well, statistically, it's extremely safe. If it's going to happen, it's going to happen.

Starting point is 04:00:26 There's nothing you can do. There's really nothing you can do unless you're going to do with that guy and that small plane to the other day and leap over and was able to take control of the plane. But I mean, like a commercial flight. So, if you're going to die, you're going to die and it's just your time and all you can do is hope that I would probably prefer to have this little awareness about it as possible. You'd rather have somebody, if you're going to get shot, you'd rather have somebody shoot

Starting point is 04:00:55 you in the back of the head and you didn't see it coming and just boom lights out versus somebody holding a gun to your head and then you're going to feel all this fear and have to like feel all of that which also made me think of you know animals and animals suffering in the way that some people argue that because of the conditions and the fear that that's like that's like in their bodies when they're killed, which is an interesting thing to think about. Yeah, I clearly struggle with the ethics of,

Starting point is 04:01:35 I just, I think about it a lot about, like our current food system, which involves a system that everybody has sort of accepted and normalized where, like say aliens did come down and looked at us and realized that we're a particularly good source of whatever fuel they need. So then they imprisoned us all in cages that were like the equivalent of like sardines and jammed it in elevator. And then we were bred and we would get sick and we'd go crazy and we'd do the equivalent of like pecking and then we'd get abused and then like grotesquely and brutally killed. And that was like our entire lives.

Starting point is 04:02:33 And so if like aliens came down and started and did all of that, we would have to be okay with that. Which is something that my was said to me after watching this movie called Our Daily Bread many years ago, but it's an interesting way to think about it, because I mean, we would have to be okay with it, because that's kind of what we're doing now, right? Yeah, we've normalized certain kinds of cruelty. And I don't think people think, yeah, people think that like I would object to hunting, hunting for sport, I think is grotesque.

Starting point is 04:03:13 But if you're hunting and then you're going to eat the entire animal and you're hunting in a way where it's kind of like, you know, that animal like lived a free and happy life until that moment. In the same way that the animal lived a free and happy moment, lived a free and happy life, or we don't know, maybe they were depressed, but they lived a free life until like the lion came and took it down. So is a human shooting an animal for food somehow more tragic or horrible than a lion attacking an elk? Yeah, there's a lot of complexities to it on top of all of that. So one, you said hunting for sport is bad, but there's this complex ethical equation of

Starting point is 04:04:01 the fact that hunting for sport is the thing that often funds the preservation of a species. Well, no, that's another complicated layer. There's like the Maui venison, all the deer in Hawaii. And I might have gotten Maui venison treats for Leon. But they're hunting those deer is a way of preserving those. Yeah, so I mean these things are complicated, but that's why I don't have a problem with somebody shooting an elk, I'm bringing it home and eating it. Like my, you know, like I've eaten elk jerky and things like that from, that's one of those situations where I wouldn't morally

Starting point is 04:04:46 have a problem with it. And for me, it's also, I'm not one of those people where I think, like, ew, I wouldn't eat meat. It's more like, I don't want to add to the consumption of it. And I wouldn't want to eat sort of like the factory farmed meat necessarily, unless I'm in prison and it's otherwise going to get thrown away. But hashtag a lot of a lot of things to you know you know you make do things differently there but

Starting point is 04:05:15 yeah um so you know it's just these things are complicated but so it's not about like you I don't want that in my body it's sort of like like, what, where did it come from? And what's going on here? And I think that, like if you just followed Joe Rogan's Instagram, there's sort of a bit of a glorification of meat that, because I listened to enough that I heard the one where he talked, it was a recent one where he's talking about Anthony Bourdain, and in that conversation, I think it was that one.

Starting point is 04:05:51 He explained that he sort of did it in summary, so I feel like he talked about it in the past, but did all this research and came to the conclusion, based on all this research, came to the conclusion that he was either going to be vegetarian or Shoot his own Meet yeah, and hunt and so that that's totally different. That's something. I mean, that's very like admirable I think and he has the means to do it But but if you not only that it does it with a bow Right even more so so it is a good question. It's It's a good question.

Starting point is 04:06:25 It's a good question how we get out of this factory because I do. I like meat. I think it's delicious. We're dependent on the nutrients and the taste. We're also dependent on the cost. A lot of people have gotten used to a particular kind of cost that they pay for meat. Right. But I think if we wiped out all the government subsidies, it would be a completely different story because why are vegetables so expensive?

Starting point is 04:06:57 All the subsidies. All the subsidies. It's pretty cool for some tomatoes yesterday. I'm protesting. Why is salad so expensive? Right, but none of the, if you, if you look at the subsidies that are given to all of the inputs to the meat industry, like the grain and soy and whatnot, and then to the meat and dairy industries and all of the subsidies that prop up those industries and allow those products to be cheap and sustainable from a business perspective, not environmental. It's government subsidies. So what if we took all that away? And then also what if we gave that to, you know, the kale and hemp and fresh greens,

Starting point is 04:07:43 farmers, then and made those foods more affordable and then had meat reflect its actual true cost. Then people would just eat more vegetables unless meat because of the cost. You mentioned the cross-dough for one item from your list. I forget what the item was, but... Oh, it was... I had previously thought that I would want to go to Vegas one day just to cross that off my list. It's not like I was like, oh, one day I want to go to Vegas. It was just like, I imagined I would only go there once just to see it and then be done

Starting point is 04:08:19 with it. Yeah, yeah. That's a good one. That's a good one. I still think you can do it because there's a particular Vegas experience that's worth having and there's maybe a couple of Vegas experiences that worth having I find casinos horribly depressing Because I think they're just predatory everything about them is predatory It's not it's not the casinos that are important. It's the people. The culture and the whole. The people you meet, the people you meet in the chaos that is Las Vegas can create a memorable experience. You lose track of what is,

Starting point is 04:08:56 what is day, what is night. You can get drunk and make all the mistakes that somehow create a beautiful masterpiece at the end of it. That's for another time. What else is on the bucket list? What items on the bucket list you haven't done yet? You really would like.

Starting point is 04:09:12 We talked about mortality. That there's a finite deadline. What pops in your head is something that you want us to do. What I want is to not die and owe people money. So, whatever mistakes you make. I want to live to write those things, and I also felt really strongly about what I, what I and everybody in the business had built. And so, a big part of me wants to resurrect the brand. Because when I,

Starting point is 04:09:51 I felt really strongly about it, like I had that feeling that this was, this was going to be a thing that I, I wanted to build and grow and could have a really positive impact and that last me. And... Did you bring it back as the same name? Yeah, well, I put the logo on my arm. That's kind of how strongly I felt about it. And so, when I did that and around that time and all of that time, I felt really almost with a certainty that it was going to be something really big, and it was growing and growing,

Starting point is 04:10:38 and all signs were pointing towards there. I was just sort of stalled and couldn't figure out the logistics and then enter Mr. Fox. So. The universe can be quite absurdly cruel at times. But yeah. But that is something worth reaching for, is repay the debt to the past. And then people have said to me that Leon achieved some kind of immortality via being the documentary.

Starting point is 04:11:12 And then I might, I don't understand this world at all, but I might do like an NFT thing related to Leon's image, which would be another way of kind of immortalizing his image at least. Yeah, but that's a, I mean, it's a potentially in progress kind of a crazy leap but and potentially relaunching the restaurant Possibly yes, and there's the restaurant and there's one lucky duck in that brand and they're sort of

Starting point is 04:11:46 separate but related. And they could each exist independently. I liked it better when they existed together because I felt like they were very complimentary in a lot of ways and they'd made sense together, but either one could be done separately without the other. But either one could be done separately without the other. Do you think you will find love again given the chaos yet to go through? Um, I have and I never talk about it. I've never talked about it. Do you have fun love again? Yes, but also in a kind of

Starting point is 04:12:23 possibly doomed temporary way which you don't like it simple do you? It's not that it's not simple. It's actually quite simple. It's just that again. There's a large age gap I am the older one which in itself isn't a problem because again, I wouldn't I which in itself isn't a problem. Because again, I wouldn't want to, like if somebody wanted kids in a family, I wouldn't want to hold them back from that. And so if I sort of wanted to be with somebody who wanted those things,

Starting point is 04:12:59 even if I was completely in love with somebody, I would have to kind of like, you know, hurt, endure the pain to be like, no, I'm going to keep you from those things. So you should go do those things. So that's, that's the source of the temperaeriness? No, it's a bit related to like logistics and living one place and having it like extremely different lifestyles. Is this a prince of some sort? No. Does he have a castle?

Starting point is 04:13:34 No. Okay. All right. No. You're going to say who it is or we're going to keep that a mystery. I don't, on the one hand, like, I feel like, I feel like it's protective for me to talk about it in some ways. But I also worry because very often I avoid saying anything because for a lot of reasons, but one being that people freak out and just assume that I'm going to step into something

Starting point is 04:14:02 horrible again, because I did step into something horribly destructive again after Mr. Fox. And what happened was I allowed something to happen. And so going back to that, what advice would you give to people? I would tell people to be very careful to be deliberate about who they're getting involved with and thoughtful about it and making sure that they're not just allowing something to happen. So it's like, you know, men can sometimes be, and I suppose women can be as well, but people can be very persistent. Sometimes that's a good thing, but it could also be a dangerous thing because sometimes somebody might just and this has happened to me a lot where somebody just wears you down and you're like ah

Starting point is 04:14:46 Fine, you know That's funny and yeah, no, it's but it works It's shockingly like the things that I've done in the spirit of like or not wanting to hurt somebody's feelings That's another that's another dangerous. It should be nice. Let's get married just to be nice That's another dangerous thing another dangerous. It'd be nice. Let's get married just to be nice. That's another dangerous thing And also maybe you should say I feel like I'm like circling back to all these unanswered questions from before but um, I didn't marry I married I married him he like convinced me to marry him in this very quick annoying way And as if it was like something I had to do and I'd be protected and all kinds of weird reasons and it was just

Starting point is 04:15:21 as if it was like something I had to do and I'd be protected and all kinds of weird reasons. And it was just, like my response to my agreeing to marry him was like, ugh, fine. Yeah. And then I remember being embarrassed at City Hall going to get the license. People who are in love and wanting to get married aren't sitting in City Hall mortified and embarrassed, you know.

Starting point is 04:15:47 So yeah, but so it was I mean, so I sort of cringe when people call him my ex-husband because I don't think of him that way. It's sort of is even though technically that's correct. Yeah, but there's a there's a powerful romantic notion to the thing and to those words and that that had nothing to do with you getting married. It was more. It was just like another thing that he made me do with you getting married. It was more. It was just like another thing that he made me do. It's like a chore. That's just had, you know, unfortunate consequences of like

Starting point is 04:16:12 then having to get divorced in the whole. Yeah, I think I think even weddings are romantic. Like the whole the cheesy thing. There's, you know, yeah, they are. Those are cool. I agree. We don't get many, many of those in life. Well, you know what, let's keep it a mystery. Let's keep the person a mystery. To be continued. I mean, season two on conversations with someone. Like a known person or anything, but I feel like people always worry that

Starting point is 04:16:46 stepping back into something and I don't have the energy to be so defensive and no. There you go. Don't worry friends. No. And also just remember that thing I was saying about how like it's good if you get to know somebody really slowly over a long period of time. Yeah. It's kind of one of those situations. So I feel very confident that I'm like certain that I'm not stepping into something where I'm going to be surprised. And somebody turns out to be not who they presented themselves to be.

Starting point is 04:17:12 So that's the wise way to do it. Especially for me, yeah. And also again, it's like I would, I would caution people to be careful about, you know, wanting to go into something deliberately versus kind of getting caught up in something or rushed or... That said, I would suggest people take that cautionary advice, but sometimes it's just fun love.

Starting point is 04:17:42 Yeah. Love it first side is a thing. There are those stories of sweet stories of older people that I don't have to be sweet. You can get hurt for it too, but don't, don't listen to your heart. This was an incredible conversation. We talked for way over four hours. We did?

Starting point is 04:18:03 Yeah. And I can't feel like I can keep talking to you. This was amazing. Sam, thank you so much for being honest, for being fearless, in answering all the questions, all the difficult questions. And thank you for trying to create something special with your restaurant and maybe create something special still in your future.

Starting point is 04:18:30 Yeah, I hope so. Thank you for having me. I kept thinking that I was going to get a a lot and so I certainly felt very intimidated knowing who's sat if not in this actual chair in this chair in another location or maybe here very we knowers. Yes, and Yeah, I was nervous too. Yeah, but at the same but also because I've because I've Know the way that you speak in your style, I felt like it was going to feel like a good natural conversation as opposed to sometimes you have conversations where it's like, anyway, so I did feel nervous because of like what I was walking into. I felt nervous that I was going to,

Starting point is 04:19:19 you know, sound stupid and boring and everybody would be like, why did he interview her like with, you know, it was exciting. You happy with it? How do we do? Yeah, I think so. Very often after. Are you self-critical after stuff? Yes.

Starting point is 04:19:36 I think you go home tonight, are you gonna be like happy with yourself or not? I mean, I feel good. I don't feel like I can't think of anything that I said that I regret. Maybe there's things that, you know like I can't think of anything that I said that I regret. Maybe there's things that, you know, somebody's going to yell at me because I said something that I said like meat tastes good or something or I don't, you know, like this, like vegan judgment.

Starting point is 04:19:55 Yes. Yes. Yes. But I think it's more useful to be honest about the contradictions and conflicting feelings because I feel like that's what most people have. And so if you want to help people shift a certain way. Yeah, you were raw, honest, it was beautiful, it was beautiful to watch. Thank you for the books. Your darkness today was visible, but the beauty too, it was an amazing conversation. I'm really, really happy with it.

Starting point is 04:20:27 I'm honored that you said, don't with me. That was awesome. I'm floored that you're honored and I'm honored that you asked me to be here. So... Thank you, Sarma. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Sarma Melangalis. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors

Starting point is 04:20:43 in the description. And now, let me leave you some words from Playwright August Wilson. Confront the dark parts of yourself and work to banish them with illumination and forgiveness. Your willingness to wrestle with your demons will cause your angels to sing. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time. you

Lex Fridman Podcast - #288 – Sarma Melngailis: Bad Vegan

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