Lex Fridman Podcast - #408 – Tal Wilkenfeld: Music, Guitar, Bass, Jeff Beck, Prince, and Leonard Cohen

Episode Date: January 9, 2024

Tal Wilkenfeld is a singer-songwriter, bassist, and guitarist. She has performed with legendary artists including Jeff Beck, Prince, Incubus, Eric Clapton, Herbie Hancock, Mick Jagger, Rod Stewart, Hans Zimmer, Pharrell Williams, and many more. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - MasterClass: https://masterclass.com/lexpod to get 15% off - LMNT: https://drinkLMNT.com/lex to get free sample pack - Eight Sleep: https://eightsleep.com/lex to get special savings - Shopify: https://shopify.com/lex to get $1 per month trial EPISODE LINKS: Tal's Instagram: https://instagram.com/talmeastory Tal's Twitter: https://twitter.com/talwilkenfeld Tal's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/talwilkenfeld/ Tal's YouTube: https://youtube.com/TalWilkenfeld Tal's Love Remains record: https://talwilkenfeld.lnk.to/LoveRemains Tal's Linktree: https://linktr.ee/talwilkenfeld Big thank you to Crossroads Guitar Festival and Jeff Beck Estate for the footage included in this podcast. Crossroads Guitar Festival: https://crossroadsguitarfestival.com/ Jeff Beck & Tal Wilkenfeld at Crossroads: https://youtube.com/watch?v=BVgUzUZeTw4 Guitar: Jeff Beck Bass: Tal Wilkenfield Drums: Vinnie Colaiuta Keyboards: Jason Rebello "Cause We've Ended As Lovers" is originally by Stevie Wonder PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ YouTube Full Episodes: https://youtube.com/lexfridman YouTube Clips: https://youtube.com/lexclips SUPPORT & CONNECT: - Check out the sponsors above, it's the best way to support this podcast - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman OUTLINE: Here's the timestamps for the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time. (00:00) - Introduction (06:51) - Jeff Beck (15:44) - Confidence on stage (32:23) - Leonard Cohen (40:23) - Taxi Driver (51:43) - Songwriting (55:23) - How to learn and practice (1:13:53) - Slap vs Fingerstyle (1:20:16) - Davie504 (1:24:36) - Prince (1:30:13) - Jimi Hendrix (1:32:27) - Mentorship (1:38:46) - Sad songs (1:44:43) - Tal performs Under The Sun (live) (1:50:00) - Tal performs Killing Me (live)

The following is a conversation with Tal Wilkinfeld, a singer-songwriter, bassist, guitarist, and a true musician who has recorded and performed with many legendary artists including Jeff Beck, Prince Eric Clapton, Incubus, Herbie Hancock, Mick Jagger, Jackson Brown, Rod Stewart, David Gilmore, Farrell, Hans Zimmer, and many many more. This was a fun and fascinating conversation. And now a quick few second mention of the sponsor. Check them out in the description. It's the best way to support this podcast. We got masterclass for learning, element for hydration, aid sleep for naps and Shopify for merch. Choose wisely, my friends. Also, if you want to work with an amazing team or was hiring, go to lexfreedman.com slash hiring.

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This is Alex Freeman podcast to support it. Please check out our sponsors in the description. And now dear friends, here's Tall, Wilkinfeld. There's a legendary video of you playing with Jeff Beck, we're actually watching it in the background now. So for people who don't know Jeff is one of the greatest guitarists ever. So you're playing with him at the 2007 Crossroads Festival and people should definitely watch that video. We were killing it on the base. Look at that face.

Were you scared? What was that experience like? Were you nervous? You know what nervous? Yeah, yeah. I wasn't nervous. I think that you can get an adrenaline rush before a stage, which is natural, but I think as soon as you bring fear to a bandstand, you're like limiting yourself. You're kind of like walling yourself off from everyone else. If you're afraid, like what is that to be afraid of? You must be afraid of making a mistake and therefore you're coming at it as like a perfectionist and you can't come at music that way or it's not going to be as expansive and vulnerable and true. So, no, I was excited and passionate and having having the best time and also you know the fact that he gave me this solo. The context of this performance is that this was a guitar festival, it was one of the biggest guitar festivals in the world

because Eric Clapton's festival and there's like 400 guitarists that are all playing solos all night. And we were towards the end of the night. And I could tell Jeff got a kick out of, you know, I'm not going to solo on one of my most well-known songs, Cos of End of His Lovers. Well, Stevie Wonder wrote it, but people know Jeff for that song and his solo on it. I'm going to give it to my bass player and like, and he did and like, he took it.

He's like bowing and like, that, that, he didn't have to do that. But you really stepped up there. It just, it just shows what a generous musician he is and that's evident in his playing across the board. He is a generous, loving, open musician. He's not there for himself. He's there for the music and he thought, well, this would be the perfect musical thing to do. And it kind of all started like when I went to

audition for him, which was an interesting experience because I got food poisoning on the plane. Literally when the plane landed, I went straight into an ambulance into a hospital overnight. The manager picked me up and I showed up at Jeff's door, which was like a three-hour drive through windy country roads. And he answered the door and he's like, okay, you ready to play? So we went upstairs and started like rattling off the set. And when it came to this song, because of it, his lover, he just said solo. And he loved it and kept the solo in it. So that's kind of how, because there was no bass solo before I was playing in his band. So this whole thing was kind of new.

So even with food poisoning, like you could step up. Yeah. That's just like what instinct. It's just being able to differentiate from like the body and from like expression music. All right. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. You said fear walls you off from the other musicians.

And what are you afraid of? You're afraid of making a mistake. You know, Beethoven said to play a wrong note is insignificant to play without passion is inexcusable. Yeah. Do you think the old man had a point? Yeah. Different styles of music invite varying degrees of, I would say, uncertain to your unsafety in the way that people might perceive it. So, for instance, like the two of that I was just on, like

playing Alma brother songs, like, I am standing on the edge of the cliff the entire night. And if I, you know, mess something up, mess it up, like, what even is a mistake? But if I do like a clunker or whatever it is, it's like, so what? I wouldn't have played half the stuff that I'm playing if I wasn't constantly standing on the edge of the cliff like wild. And so I don't care about those few little things. I care about the overall expression. And then there's other gigs that, you know, for instance, if I got called for like a pop or a country session or a show, in those environments, they may want you to play safe. Like, just play the pot and play it with a great groove and time and great dynamics

and don't really veer away from the pot and stuff. And I've done plenty of those gigs too. It's just a different like hat you put on. What do you get from the veering off the beaten path. You just love it, or is that gonna make the performance better? Like why, why you stand on the edge of the cliff? Because at the edge of the cliff is all possibilities. And unknown, you don't know what's coming. And I love being there in the unknown. It otherwise, it's just like,

why are we doing this? Am I just like a clown on stage like showing you my skills or what, what I've studied in my bedroom and saying, no. Like I wanna be like pure expression happening right now and responding in real time to everything that's happening. And anytime I'm not doing that, it's like the waste of everybody's time. Have you ever messed it up real bad? Mess what up? I mean, you know, comedians bomb. You're a big fan of comedy. Yeah.

Have you ever bombed that stage? Probably. I think I think it's all about recovery. You know, and the more times that you fall off the cliff, the quicker you know how to recover and the varying ways that you can recover to the point in which it's concealed so much that maybe a listener might not even know that you're recovering. And eventually you learned to fly if you take that metaphor all the way off the cliff, you know, you learn. All right. I remember one time when I was really young. Well, not really young, but like when I was 21 or 22, yeah, exactly.

But when I was first playing with Jeff Beck and we played at what I consider the best, the coolest jazz festival, it's Montoro Jazz. And like Miles played there, everyone played there and they have the best speaker system ever. It was excited for months. And the drummer Vinnie was like practicing for like eight hours in the bus on the way there.

And everyone was like on fire on stage. And I remember playing a note, just one note that I really didn't like. And I let it go in the moment on stage. But as soon as I got off stage, I was really sad. And so I sat like on this road case, everyone was out celebrating. I like sound this road case with the sad face like, and then Claude Nobs, like the owner of the, you know, the whole festival came out to me, he's like, tall, what's wrong? And I'm like, I played a bad note.

I was such a child. And like he said all this wise stuff that, you know, Miles Davis had been fond of him him and like it fully cheated me up He's like is there anything that would make you feel better and I was like Caviar Dude came back 10 minutes later with this huge thing. Oh wow. It was a joke It was a joke, but he actually brought me caviar. I think, but anyway, that's the, that's the one time that I remember being sad about

a performance. Now I'm just like, okay, whatever. Like it's done. Was it a physical slip of like the fingers? Or was it, did you intend to play that note? That I can't remember. I, I can't remember if it was just a bad choice that sounded like a clanger or why it happened. It was so long ago, but I don't get depressed about that anymore. That'd be funny if that was like your biggest and only regret in life, is that note? You got haunted in your dreams. And then like, you know, like I'm on my deathbed

and just everyone's just bringing me caviar. Because the one that I was going to... Yo, Quentin, wait, you talk to about confidence somewhere. I don't remember where. So I want to ask you about how much confidence it takes to be up there. You said something that Anthony Jackson told you as encouragement, a line that I really like, that quote, on your worst day, you're still a bad motherfucker. That's actually a Steve Gad quote. And Steve used to tell that to Anthony, because Anthony used to get real depressed if he did a wrong thing or not perfect thing and Steve Gad used to say this to Anthony Jackson and then Anthony was my first base mentor or just mentor in general.

People don't know he's a legendary basis to legendary basis and I started playing the base when I was 17 and I moved to New York and I met Anthony and he started mentoring me bit in a very not typical way like he like would just sit in his car with me for hours and talk music and just listen to music and analyze it exactly and that was the best form of learning. I think just like, well, what do you perceive here? And will I have heard this and just discussing that? Jazz usually. No, old styles of music. And yeah, he told me that story about on your worst day. Because, you know, like, yeah, even then,

like when I was like 18, 19, I get sad sometimes about performances. Like I could have done this. It's like, I don't do that anymore, thankfully, or I'd be miserable. So you still, you always kind of feel pretty good. Yeah. Yeah, now I do. Now, it's just, I, I, I sense the body feeling fatigued, especially if it's a very long

show, like the ones I just did with three hour shows, and we did, you know, one to three hour sound checks. So that's a lot of physical activity every day. So I just feel the body being tired, like fatigued, the ears are fatigued. That's about it. I don't really reflect on the show much. You're almost like from a third person perspective feel the body tired and just accept it. Yeah, I don't want to identify with it because then I'm then I'm tired but I'm not tired. It's very easy. I'm usually like energized. It's like with the food poisoning. The mind is still capable of creative genius even if the body is gone. Yeah. Something like that. even if the body is gone. Something like that. So no self-critical component to the way you see your performances anymore. There is critique, but not in the way that it would diminish my sense of

self. It's different. I can just kind of look at something and be like, okay, well, actually next time I'll do this choice and this choice, maybe, maybe this would serve the song better. Maybe this would help the groove feel more like this, but it's not like I suck because I did this and I'm a loser. And like, you think that's bad? Because I even when I asked that question, I had a self-critical thought, then why do you think that's bad because I even when I asked that question I had a self-critical thought then why did you ask that question that's the wrong question I always have the self-critical engine running isn't necessarily bad thing it depends if it's affecting you negatively it is negative anyway well if if it brings your frequency down and you feel less joyful inside and less, you don't feel

like complete, you feel less than less worthy of something, then you could call that bad if you aspire to not feel that way. Yeah, I aspire to not feel that way in the big picture, but in the little picture, like there's a little pain, a little pain is good. That's fair. So confidence, you seem like in this performance, you seem confident. You seem to be truly walking the bad motherfucker way of life. I kind of a word that I prefer over confidence is trust because I think with confidence is almost like there's a belief assigned to it that I am this thing that you believe in. Whereas trust is just simply knowing that you can get up there and handle whatever it's going to come your way. And it's more of

an open feeling where it's like, yeah, I could do this, sure. But not like, I'm a bad motherfucker. Like, you know what I mean? It's a huge difference. Cause I've shared the stage with people who have a lot of confidence. And it can be like a brick wall, just like fear is a brick wall.

So the brick wall is a bad thing. Like the thing you have with Jeff here on stage. It's not a brick wall, just like fear is a brick wall. So the brick wall is a bad thing. Like the thing you have with Jeff here on stage. It's not a brick wall. There's no wall. This is chemistry. Yeah. How can you explain that chemistry, the two you had?

Trust and lack of fear, yeah. And also I will say, you know, that each individual has developed likes and dislikes over their lifetime. And that can be like, in this case, we're just talking aesthetic likes and dislikes over their lifetime, and that can be like in this case, we're just talking aesthetic likes and dislikes. So, in this particular case, obviously our likes and dislikes are very much aligned, such that the things I do to complement him, he enjoys and vice versa. It could be two, you know, very trusting, open musicians on stage that don't have walls up, but their choices are very different. One person like heavy metal and the other person like classical.

So it's, it's going to be both. So you guys were good at like, yes, ending each other musically. Like, definitely. Is that where you're most at peace in a meditative way? It's on stage. It used to be that it would only be on stage. It started with that. That was almost like my way in to flow state and meditation was playing music.

And then back in the day when I kind of crash after shows, I wanted to change that. I wanted to always feel like I'm in flow state. So. Have you succeeded? I've gotten a lot better. I'm still obviously on the journey, but yes. So you meditate, I think you've said somewhere that you meditate before shows or just in general I meditate every day When I'm on tour with my band, I ask that we all meditate together for at least 20 minutes

And I don't dictate what which type of meditation I don't put on a guided meditation because everyone has their own Thing they want to do maybe someone might be praying in their head. It doesn't matter. It's just the idea that we all put our phones down. And we all are in one room connecting energetically, spiritually, and just letting our lives go for a second. And then we walk straight on the stage, and it's always really connected. And there were a couple gigs where we ran out of time for that, and I could tell. There was a major difference in the performance. So both connects you and centers you, all those things. Yeah.

But then when I'm home, like I love to meditate, and I've tried various styles of meditation and studied various types of things. So I don't do just one thing. I kind of customize it depending on where I'm at in my life. You and the world lost Jeff back a year ago. You told me you really miss him. How's the pain of losing Jeff? Change you.

Maybe deep in your sense of the world. You know, it's hard to accept that we won't create something musically again in this lifetime. But in terms of the grief, grief was easier for me because I went through a major grief period in 2016 and 2017. And that was the first time I'd really gone through the process of grief in a, like in a non-familyfamily situation like with friends and mentors and people that I'd created with which is different. It's a different kind of connection. My grandparents died. It's like there was nothing left unsaid and I was at peace with what was happening. With this, when Prince died out of the blue in mid 2016, and then Leonard Cohen died in November, that just told me to shreds because Leonard Cohen

was not just someone that profoundly inspired me, you know musically and lyrically, but spiritually, we had a very deep connection. And that was the basis of a lot of our conversation was spirituality. And so at that time, I felt like a piece of me went missing. And that was a very long process where I just stayed in my place and didn't want to play a note of music. I kind of wanted to just get rid of all my stuff. So I had a friend come over and he's like,

you should just, once you come to the comedy store, I'm like comedy store, like, what am I gonna go go to some store and buy clown suits? Like, what are you talking about? What's a comedy store? He's like, no, no, like the comedy store the place where like comedians go, I'm like, okay, well, I've never seen stand up,

but I don't, you know, I've seen Seinfeld on TV, that's like the extent of my standup experience. So he took me to the comedy store and every single one of those comedians like embraced me like I was family. It didn't even take a day. I was like part of the family and I made like 25 best friends

and I ended up throwing all my stuff in storage and like finding a little room to stay in where I rented my gear out. And that was me paying. My rent paying was me loading the gear. Because I didn't want any any responsibilities financial. I just wanted to be completely free so that I could could just process it and not feel like I had to commit to anything work-wise or creatively. I just wanted to unplug. This was a fun and very different way to unplug because previously I may have just gone to a monastery and spent weeks at a monastery or months.

But in this case, I was like, you know what? This is a different kind of experience. I'm gonna just hang out with comedians and stay in this room. But no responsibility, really? Yeah, other than to really deeply connect with this grief that I'm experiencing, I'm not going to negate it. I'm gonna really to negate it. I'm not, I'm gonna really fully connect to it and I did and it was tough and then you know more people in

2017 were leaving Greg Almond Tom Petty. I mean it was like these are people that I I worked with all these people and like had great connections with them and they were all going, and the world was mourning the loss of these people because of everything that they'd given to the world. Like, they'd changed the world's lives, not just mine, because I knew them personally. And so, that was also complicated, and why, for me, it was interesting

to be grieving the loss of these musicians with comedians. And I learned a lot to change my life because I just learned to laugh at absolutely anything. Everything. I mean, my grandpa had a really great sense of humor to my grandpa as a Holocaust survivor. And like, he could just kind of laugh at anything. And like, I already kind of have that in me, but being around all these comedians just kind of like exaggerated that for me and that really changed things for me for the better. So then when Jeff Beck died, it was like okay I've got these tools,

I know what this is and I'm going to go through it again and I I'm gonna be on tour with Incubus in two days. Yeah. And so Mike don't from Green Day. He called me up and he said, hey, like, I know you're going through a lot. And I said, yeah, I don't even know what I'm gonna play. Like, I really want to vintage jazz bass for this. And I mean, you have a 70s one that I don't really think is appropriate. I really need a 60s one blah blah blah.

And Mike's like, I'm gonna hook you up. He showed up to my place the next day with a truck load of old P bases and jazz bases and brought them all into my studio. And I'm playing them and then I pull one out of the case and it's a limpic white just like Jeff Beck. And I play it. And not only did I get goosebumps and started crying, but I looked over at Mike and the same thing was happening.

And he's like, I guess Jeff might be happy about this. And he's like, well, I didn't want to let this one go. I was just trying to cheer you up a bit and maybe loan it to you for the tour. But if you really want it, it's yours. And I was like, oh my god, this is like, like what a like my doing is the nicest guy ever. So, so that happens. So that bass, this name is Jeff, and it's a white jazz bass, and I played it on the Inky Bus tour. But yeah, I do feel like I'm more equipped to handle grief now. Tell me about the comedy store a little bit more. Do you think comedians and musicians and some deep fundamental way are made from the same cloth? Like, are they spiritually connected somehow?

I think everyone's connected spiritually in the same way. So I think personality-wise, comedians and musicians are quite different actually. In what way? Well, you'd have to subdivide even musicians into different categories too, because the thing that I appreciate about comedians is that you go to a restaurant with them and all the observational humor, they'll notice everything and make you laugh about it, which a really great songwriter does the same thing too. And my favorite lyricists, like Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, they, you know, Warren Zeevon, they add comedy into their lyric

and like, so those types of people I would like into hanging out with a comedian. It's very different from like say somebody that is an instrumental guitarist or something like that, that they're more focused on whether it's like a kinesthetic thing or like a physical thing or whatever it is, they're not quite doing the observational thing in the same way. So I just appreciate like, my favorite thing to do is go on and laugh, especially because like I can tend to be pretty analytical and be in my head. And so anything that just kind of

lets me be in my heart and just enjoy life. I think there's a photo of you with a dish of pearl on stage. What was that about? So right after Leonard Cohen passed away, the comedy store threw me a birthday party. It was this crazy lineup and like it was like I'd play a song with my band and then Jackson Brown sat in and like sang a song and then like Dave Chappelle came up and said some jokes. It was like one of my favorite nights ever. Yeah. Yeah, it was cool.

It was a very healing birthday party. Yeah, there's something magical about that place. Yeah. It's really special. Well, the mothership has some magic to it. Yeah. It's really cool. It's totally different vibe, but like super awesome.

You've said that Lennon Cohen is a songwriting inspiration to yours. I saw you perform this song, Chelsea Motel, brilliantly on the internet. It's about for people who don't know, has a, has love affair with Janet Joplin. How does that song make you feel? Great. I love that song make you feel? Great. I love that song, which aspect, musically, the melancholy feeling, the hopeful feeling, the, the cocky feeling, all of it, like every single line is a different feeling to it, really.

Yeah, but as a whole piece, I, I appreciate it so much. I actually lived at the Chelsea Hotel. And when Leonard and I first met, that was one of the first things we talked about was that, you know, I lived there where all that stuff went down before they tore it apart. And, um, yeah, toward a pot and yeah, it's just a beautiful song. You know, it makes me sad the way it ends. I don't mean to suggest that I love you the best. I can't keep track of each fallen Robin. I remember you well in the Chelsea hotel, that's all.

I don't even think of you that often. You know, that line, I don't even think of you that often, You know that line, I don't even think of you that often always like breaks my heart for some reason. Like how Ephemeral Hall short last thing. Like certain love affairs can be just kind of like, huh? Yeah. Do you think he meant it?

I always think he doesn't, he's trying to convince himself of it. It could be both. Or either, you know, I mean, that's the beautiful thing about poetry and lyric is that it's supposed to be open. Yeah, I wonder if it's also open to him depending on the day, you know? Definitely. I mean, the thing that he taught me or his advice to me was when you're writing a song, look at it the next morning, like just first thing and read it, and then take a walk.

Smoke a joint. Read it again. Go have a fight with your, you know, daughter. Come back. Read it again. Get drunk. Read it again. Wait a week. Read it again. drunk, read it again, wait a week, read it again. So that, you know, from every state and every position, the wider the lens is going to be from an audience perspective, you want things to mean multiple things. So there's one line I read somewhere that he regrets putting in the song. So I got to ask you about it. It's pretty edgy. It's about giving me head on the unmade bed. Yeah. I think that's a good line or a bad line. I think it's an amazing lines, one of the best lines in the song. Yeah, right. When he put that song out, obviously he didn't regret it or he wouldn't have put that lyric

in the song. I think what happened was that eventually word got out, either from him or from somebody else that the song was about Janice Joplin. And so at that point, he regretted the indiscretion. So it wasn't that he regretted how great the line was. It was just, you know, the privacy factor. But then again, Leonard's known for rewriting his lyrics in his live shows. You'll see a bunch of songs with like new lyrics. And he didn't do it because he didn't like the old lyrics.

He just did it because he could because he's Leonard. And it's like, why not have fun with words? The way musicians have fun, you know, improvising solos on stage. And he could have changed that line in Chelsea Hotel after in retrospect, and he never did. I remember you well in the Chelsea Hotel, you were talking so brave and so sweet, giving me head on the unmade bed

while the limousines lay in the street. It's so powerful. It's a powerful line, it just kind of shocks you. Well, that's what's so great about it. Yeah. But also heartbreaking, That's a powerful line, it just kind of shocks you. Well, that's what's so great about it. Yeah. But also heartbreaking, because it doesn't last. Especially actually to me, it adds more meaning

once you know it's Janice Joplin. It's like, okay, these two stars kind of collide it for a time. Yeah, but why is it heartbreaking? Could also be just beautiful that they had a little fling. Yeah, everything is beautiful. Thank you. Even the dark stuff. What's not beautiful? Everything is beautiful. If you look long enough and deeply enough, what were we saying? What do you think about Hallelujah? What do you think

about the different songs of his? And why'd you choose Josie Hotel to perform? Because I lived there and it meant something to me to sing that song. And actually, when I put that song out on YouTube, that's when he sent me an email. He's like, hey, do you want to come over? So this is how you guys connect it? No, we met in a rehearsal studio. I ended up watching their whole rehearsal and sitting there next to Rochie, his 105-year-old monk,

which was really great. I remember when I was shaking his hand, so I was just me and Rochie on the couch watching Leonard with his band. And he shaking hands, and he grips my hand like this, but like doesn't let it go. And he said, he looked at my eyes, he said, where are you? And I said, in the handshake. Yes. Wow, he passed the test.

Pass the Rochy test. And then what's funny was that the next thing that happened about five minutes later was Leonard Cohen got down on his knees and opened up a jar. I'm not kidding you of caviar. This is not a callback. Well, it isn't away. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I. I know. know. I know. I know. I know. The end. Do you think there's a kind of like weird, like there's a sense of humor to it all somehow? Like, like, why does that happen? Why does that happen? Why, like, why stuff like that happens? Or that the Jeff base speaks to you.

Why do we need to know? You believe in that stuff? And what's that? That there's a rhyme to the whole thing somehow. Why do we need to know? You believe in that stuff and what stuff that there is Rhyme to the whole thing somehow like there's a frequency to which Magical things of that nature can happen I'm divided about that answer because I think just things are flowing. I don't think anything's planned out.

Like through time, it's like an orchestra playing of different experiences and so forth of senses that are somehow connected. I think everything's connected. So yes. What predetermined means like... I don't believe in that predetermined stuff necessarily. Which is different from whatever your previous comma is. Uncoma is a whole other kind of conversation.

I don't mean commas in like good comma, bad comma, just comma meaning. The collection of things you have acquired over this lifetime or other lifetimes, just whatever that is is going to influence your future. Well, you had a really interesting trajectory through life. Maybe I just read it that way because I've had a lot of stuff happen to me. That's like lucky Feels lucky And sometimes I wonder like huh This is weird. It does feel like the universe just kind of throw stuff at you with a chuckle I don't know not you the proverbial you won Yeah

You say you sometimes watch classic movies to inspire your songwriting and you mentioned watching taxi driver. I love that movie. And I think you mentioned the Euro Love song based on that movie. So Travis Bickle for people don't know is the taxi driver and is deeply lonely. What do you think about that kind of loneliness? I think that loneliness is a product of feeling separate from the world and separate from others and that the less you experience that separation, the less you'll feel lonely. How often have you felt lonely in this way, separated from the rest of the world?

It's less and less every single year, because I work very hard at, at it, feeling what a part of the world. It just meditating and studying scriptures and don't you think that I mean, isn't there a fundamental loneliness to the human experience? Just... In what sense? That all the struggles, all the suffering you experience, is really experienced by you alone.

Isn't? Maybe at the very bottom, it's not. It's kind of all the same stuff. You didn't feel alone in 2016, 2017. I felt like I lost a piece of myself that I had given to somebody else. And I feel like people feel that in romantic exchanges with it's long term, short term.

You give a piece of yourself and then if that person dies or you break up with that person, you feel like you've lost that piece of yourself, and then if that person dies or you break up with that person, you feel like you've lost that piece of yourself. Which I feel like is very different experience than if you just are opening yourself, rather than giving a piece of yourself, you're just opening yourself to somebody or something. So opening is fundamentally not a lonely experience? No, it's a loving experience. And then losing a piece of yourself can't be. Yeah, because you can't really, you can't lose a

piece of yourself if you are the same self as every other self. Right. Right. So if you see yourself as together with everybody, then there's no losing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a beautiful way to look at it. You said that there's something healing about being in an empty hotel room with no attachments except your suitcase. You know, a lot of people will talk about hotel rooms being a fundamentally lonely experience, but you're saying it's healing. Yeah, because I just get to sit there and not worry about all this stuff, like these meaningless attachments. I've got my suitcase with my necessities for my three suitcases sometimes.

And I can just sit there and meditate and just be with myself. And it's so awesome. And usually like you plan your touring for like, you know, you kind of get the business aspect of things taken care of in advance. So you can kind of just really be flowing day to day on a tour. And it's a great feeling. It's funny because this last tour that I did, we didn't have hotels every night. We had hotels maybe like once a week and I hadn't done that before. Usually

it's frequently in hotels so I didn't get that space that I'm really used to get. You missed them. space that I'm really used to get. You missed them. I very much missed it and had to be very creative. And I ended up like going into the back lounge whenever one was asleep and like meditating back there or like before I ever woke up. And I actually like joined. There was like an online meditation retreat

that was happening. It was like 12 hours a day of silent meditations that happens once a year. And I love this, this particular group of people. And they knew I was on tour. So they're like, just join when you can. And so I was on the tour doing the meditation retreat at the same time. It was so fun. It was so fun because I was like in the

back lounge, the bus is like moving around like this. My laptop, the zoom is like, and I'm just like sitting like meditating. It was like, yeah, this is the shit. And silence. So they're all connected to zoom and just doing 12 hours a day. Yeah, that's cool. These particular retreats that I started doing, it's not straight silent. There are, you know, silence sits every hour for 50 minutes, and then there's some talks. And like these people that I've been working with are really cool because they're integrating spiral dynamics into Zen, and it's like the coolest combination. What's spiral dynamics?

Like Ken Wilber, you know, Ken Wilber, integral theory. Yes, can you explain a little bit? So I vaguely know him because of kind of this notion that everything is one. Like everything is integrated integrated that every field has truths and falsehoods and we should integrate the truths. Yeah, it's hard to explain how it applies to this type of meditation because it's in the guided parts of the meditation that this whole like, a whole onic theory is like brought in about like, transcending and including every aspect of your being. Because he talks about like, levels of development

and like, in consciousness and how like, this applies to like, every single religion or non-religion that there are these levels of development and from all the go all the way up to enlightenment, no matter what you start off with, it could be, you know, Christianity, Buddhism, Vedanta doesn't matter like anything. And I just like, I like it when everything is and everyone is taken into account. It doesn't matter where you're coming from, that there's a way to be self-realized, self-actualized.

There are self-actualized beings from all walks of life with very, very different paths. There's no one path. I mean, in this particular retreat, I do, there's like a lot of silence hits and then there's some guided meditations. But this, I've tried a lot of different avenues and they're all great. So I wouldn't just say, just try this one thing. Like, I've studied like the Upanishads, like with Vedanta teachers and like gone through those texts for months and months and stayed at monasteries and like, how they break it down, makes total sense to my mind and heart.

And more importantly than my mind, like my inner knowing, like it resonates. That's inner knowing. Yeah, because your mind is like the thinking tool. It's not you, you're not your mind, you're not your thoughts, your body, so it's like just the you, like that knowing that you have, that's kind of when something resonates there, that's usually when you go with something. What's living in a monastery like?

It's the best. What are we talking about? Like what? It's just an empty room with like a tiny single bed and a sheet and pillow and that's it. That's it. You have to eat the same thing as everyone. What's the food like? What is it?

Very plain, cheap, basic food. Which is funny for someone like me because I'm pretty particular about my time. Yeah, you brought over like 20 different ingredients. Yeah. So what was the like day in the life of tall and a monastery? You wake up at 5 a.m. to the bell and you go and meditate like constantly to the till bedtime other than two meals. What how are you sitting? Are you in a group? Is there other people there?

Mm-hmm, and you're just sitting there? Well, you're if you're talking about the Zen monastery because I stayed in Zen monastery And I did a thing with that the guy was telling you about that kind of the integral Zen thing where he uses Ken Wilbur's work in combination with Zen. That's a little bit different because he does talks. We talk about things. And that's very separate from the monastery, like the Vedanta monasteries I've stayed at, which there's very little meditation in terms of sitting silently. Instead, we are meditating on the scriptures, like the Upanishads, and we're like diving into that.

What were the differences that take us from the experiences, the two different, the integral one, and the meditating on scriptures? They both incredibly, have been incredibly helpful to me, because the Vedanta, anytime I go into my head about something, the answer is there based on this knowledge. And with the Zen monastery, it's like, you just got to your your butt in the seat and sit and wait And maybe something and we'll have maybe it won't but just keep sitting and it's very disciplined and

You go through a lot your body is purging a lot there's There's a lot and you don't necessarily have the answers to what is happening. And so I think for somebody like me, I need both. I need to be in a place where there's complete uncertainty but complete discipline and just doing the regimented thing. And then there's the me that feels very satisfied from an analytical standpoint, understanding what's happening, what is the gross and the subtle body,

and I want to understand these things about what it is to be a human. So I like them both. Understand what it means to be a human. So having that patience and just sitting with yourself helps you do that. Yes, more so like the analysis part. Also the actual okay got it. But sitting with yourself there's no better education. Of like facing every demon and it's all going to come out and it's not going to be pretty.

But then there's there's things that happen on the other side of it that are so profound. Have you met most of your demons? I've met the demons that have come out. Oh, there might be more. Who knows? Yeah. Well, to be continued.

What since I think I heard you say that you wrote a love song after taxi driver what Kind of love songs you write more of Broken so you're a songwriter first for people don't know they might think you're Primarily a basis, but you're wrong So do you write mostly broken heart ones or like hopeful love songs in love songs about to be in love songs soon to fall in love songs. Well the last time I put out is pretty self-explanatory as to what that is. A lot of pain though. There was yeah. Some of it was storytelling and some of it was Storytelling and some of it was real experience and it's always like a combination of

things like what I serve the song so sometimes you use your own Life experience to tell a song and sometimes you may watch a movie and part of that script merges with your own experience and that tells the right story for the point you're trying to make in the song. So it varies from song to song, like in terms of how like what a biographical it is. Yeah, I was stuck at the other taxi driver when it's an embedsy because Travis becomes a hero she tries to get with him and he rejects her. Also, that's powerful. My favorite love songs are the ones where you're not sure

it's about romantic love or love of God or love of life or just pure, just love. Like, I was thinking like George Harrison writes songs like that, like, what is life? Or like Bob Dylan's song that George Harrison covered, if not for you. Yeah, just grateful, grateful for his love. Yeah. Right. That's kind of like where, well, what I'm experiencing now, and so who knows, well, I'll end up coming out, but. Do you've been writing this kind of? Yeah, I've been writing a little bit. I don't have like an intention of like putting something out

in any particular time frame, but I'm just writing and letting things flow. Mm-hmm. And yeah, I love this, like a bunch of like Leonard Cohen songs to where you're like, there's so many ways to interpret this song and there's so many ways. I just love songs that don't aren't like so, like, specifically about one thing. You know, I really love the song to play it to listen to

Wonderful Tonight by Eric Clapton and I thought it was pretty straightforward. Yeah. And then I had a conversation with the Eric Weinstein, who's a mutual friend of ours, and he told me it's not about what I thought it's about. Oh yeah, what did he say? It's a more complicated story. It's actually a man. So wonderful tonight is a story about a man being just finding his wife beautiful and appreciating it throughout. But he said it was actually a man missing his wife is imagining that she's lost because of the decisions he's made in his life.

So it's pain. And he had a long, beautiful, airquence time-like explanation of why. I love this. Have you and Eric played music? No. We just hung out and had very long conversations about everything. These are a bit of a musician, you know?

Yeah. Okay. You picked up the guitar when you were were 14. Let's go back. And one interesting thing that just jumped out of me is you said you learned how to practice in your head because you only have 30 minutes. Your parents will only let you practice for 30 minutes. I read somewhere the call train did the same. He was not the practice part, but he was able to play instruments in his head as a way to think through different lines, different musical thoughts, that kind of stuff.

I just, maybe can you tell the story of that? Yeah, I just grew up in an environment that was focused on academia. And I fell in love with guitar and really just wanted the focus to be that. So my limit was 30 minutes a day for, I don't even remember how many times a week might have been every day or five days a week, whatever. See a person watching play more than that? No. And so I just learned how to visualize the frontboard in my head and I'd practice all day in my head.

It's kind of like, you know, the Queen's Gambit, the TV show with Anya Taylor Joy and she's just like, she's on the ceiling. I used to do that with the frontboard. Yeah, just practice. And I actually recommend it to every musician, because if you're just practicing here, you don't know what is more dominant necessarily, is it this or is it your motor skills?

If you just take that away and do it here, you know you've got it. So I'm glad that that happened, and that I learned how to do that. And in terms of like learning fast, because I had to like learn how to, well, I had to try to absorb a lot of information in a short amount of time when I did have the instrument. I kind of would do things in bursts, like even in that half an hour, I would just go play for a couple of minutes and then I'd stop for like a minute.

And then I'd do it again and I noticed there was a huge difference between the first time and the second time whereas if I just kept repeating stuff, it would be much slower. What did you do in the, when not minute? Just hang out. Just integrate.

Yeah, my brain was telling me like, just chill out for a sec. That's enough information. Let me, let me take a second to integrate that. Yeah. That's what, at least what it felt like to me. And the most hilarious thing happened a couple months ago. I know your friends with Andrew Huberman.

So he put out some clip, which was a part of one of his podcasts about learning. And he said that there was some research done on learning fast, and that if you practice something for a minute or so, and then you let your brain rest for 30 seconds, or a minute, that in that 30 seconds or a minute, your brain does the repetition 20 to 30 times faster and in reverse. And I was like, whoa, that's so cool because that's what I used to do in those two kids.

Like now there's science that proves that, which is really cool for musicians to know that that's a good way to practice efficiently. Because you know, like some musicians, they're like practicing for six, seven, eight hours a day. I've never done that. I've never practiced more than an hour a day, even now. Like I've just, just that's my technique.

And it works. Are you also practicing in your head sometimes? Now I'm not practicing as much. I'm always writing songs in my head, so that's why I like silence. That's why I love being in the empty hotel room and being alone. Songs come to me while I'm showering or walking around doing the dishes. Occasionally when I'm hanging out with friends or like comedians and people just like say shit and I'll be like, that's cool, I'm just like jot it out my phone.

So it's not always musical, it's sometimes lyrical. It's more lyrical than musical now. Because it's like, for me it's like, well, there's so much music in the world. If I'm going to write a song, I want the song to be about something interesting. And so, yeah, the words matter to me. Yeah, and the right work and it has so much power. It's crazy. Like we said, we'll learn it in a little bit. And then they're often simple.

The really powerful ones are simple. And like you, when you mentioned Hallelujah, you know, he wrote like 80 firsts to Hallelujah before he narrowed it down to like four. And it took him like 15, 20 years to write that song. So some writers will do that. Like, and then other writers just vomit it out and it's beautiful. Like I've heard that Bob Dylan or Journey Mitchell,

they're like, they're fast writers, they just kind of just kind of come out. That makes me feel so good to no longer call on Roads May versus of that. Like that, that was so deliberately crafted, extensively, rigorously crafted. He just would spend a month and years and constantly refining refining. You have songs like that for yourself? Or you have a song for many years? It's song dependent. Some just flow out and it's like, oh, there it is.

Everything's there. And then other songs, it's like you might have started up with music in their some words that come out and then trying to fill in the rest of the words. Sometimes it can be like a square peg in a round hole and And other times it's like, oh no, I can, you know, it, it depends. Sometimes it becomes like a math problem. And hopefully it doesn't. Because you just want to say what's right for the song.

And usually when you, you know, write it all together, like the lyric and the melody and the chords and everything's kind of developing at once, at least for the first draft, that's very, very helpful. Like, Sonheim used to write like that, just like he wouldn't move on until like, he would just go this way. Whereas for me, it's just like, I'll just go with what seems to be coming naturally and I'll just let it be what it is. And then you come back and you say, okay, well, what do I have to do to this now?

Well, look, what's needed? Just through our Linga and the learning process, what would you recommend for young musicians and how to get good? What are the different paths a person can take to understand it deeply enough to create something special. I think first and foremost, understanding why you are playing music, if it's because you have something that you're trying to express, or that you're just in love with expression itself, without itself. Those are great reasons to start this journey. The why should be. I mean, the why is really important because it's a jagged lifestyle. And there's a lot in it. And so if you don't have your purpose, if you're not centered in your purpose, then all that that jagged lifestyle is probably going to get to you.

Jagged. It's jagged. Yeah, it's jagged. It's all over the place. It's uncertain. It's one thing, one moment, and a completely different thing, another moment. You never know what's going to happen. And if you thrive on variety, which I love variety, then it's perfect. But also every human being needs a certain amount of certainty and structure. And so it's

the certainty can come from your inner knowing, knowing that you're doing exactly what you want to be doing and knowing what your purpose is in doing it in this expression. Otherwise, you're just kind of like a leaf blowing in the wind. Like in the early days, touring, just playing clubs seems like tough. Yeah. It's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot of like the physical labor aspect of it is really hard. Playing on stage to two people or two thousand or twenty thousand, that doesn't make a difference. I mean, it makes a difference to the ticket sales which informs how what level of luxury you might have on the road or not. But other than that, it's just people

there listening to music. The music doesn't change. Does it make it tough for us to people versus 200? No. So even if nobody recognizes whatever the thing you're doing. No, because the idea is to be doing, like having a great conversation on stage. The audience can come and go. Yeah. I mean, I always, like, at like this set of points in shows

where I'm just like, I consciously am like, oh, yes, there's an audience over there. Cause I'm so like wrapped up in whatever's happening on stage. You forget yourself. Well, maybe I'm remembering myself. Oh, damn. Call back somehow feels like one. Okay. Uh, you think every instrument is its own journey. You play guitar, you play bass, you sing just the mastery of an instrument or less of a word mastery, the understanding

of an instrument, is its own thing or they somehow like physical manifestations of the same thing. physical manifestations of the same thing. Both, you know, like every instrument has its strengths, beauty, limitations, range, like possible range that can, you know, be extended to some degree or another, depending on who you are, like trumpet or something, you know, like certain people can hit higher notes than others, blah, blah, blah. But that being said, we're all playing the same 12 or 24 or however you divide the octave, that many notes, you know, we're all

playing the same notes. So in that sense, it's all the same thing. It's just music or better yet, it's just odd or expression. But yeah, every instrument has, you know, you got to go through the physical aspects of it, the motor skills and all of that. And hopefully you get through that really quickly so you can get to the expression quickly because if you get stuck in just that first phase, that's really boring. Yeah, but that's a pretty long phase, the technical, the technical skill required to really play an instrument. For some people it's a long thing and some people it's short, it very, very much varies.

It might have to do with like how you learn and getting to know your strengths in learning, like more oral or more like, is it more like what's your strength and playing off of those strengths? So for me, like I was saying earlier, it was just an intuitive thing that I knew, I can feel when my brain is full, like that it needs processing time.

And so I listened to that, I don't push past it. Even if it's like one minute and I do something, I'm like, okay, science, and then I come back in it. And I trust that it's going to be there and is there. So just trusting yourself, I think, is really important. Trusting that you know you better than anybody else is going to know you. So that's the kind of thing with teachers that can be either really, really helpful and great or really not great. Like, I'm primarily self-taught. I've had amazing mentors of all walks of life. And I think unbelievably blessed that my mentors are some of my favorite musicians on Earth,

whether it's Leonard Cohen or Jeff Beck or Wayne Shorter, whoever these people are, they are my favorite musicians. So, not everyone has that opportunity, but what the opportunity that we have now that I didn't have when I was starting is that everything's on YouTube Like every interview with every genius like you you don't need to necessarily have these people in person now I mean it and and then I'll say to that Yes, and no I I agree with myself and then I don't agree with myself. And the reason is I do believe that there is something that happens when you're in person

with a master. In some cases that there is something transferred that is not intellectual, it's not spoken, it's something else that happens, that can happen, that I've experienced. And I really value that. And I think that applies to specific disciplines and also generally, like I've been around Olympic gold medalists, just to hang out with them for several days. And there's something, there's something about greatness. There's a way about them that kind of permeates the space around them. You kind of learn something from it.

Even if you don't practice that particular discipline, there's something to do. If you're, if you're able to see it, I also like what you said about the playing stuff in your head, that it forces you to not be lost in the physical learning of the instrument. I think that's one of the things I probably regret a little bit. So I play both piano and guitar and I've become quite over the years technically proficient at the instruments, but I think my mind is underdeveloped because of that. Meaning like I can't really like, I can feel the music when it's created, but I can't create out of the feeling. I haven't practiced the But I can't create out of the feeling. I haven't practiced the Project projecting the feeling onto the music, you know, and I'm not like a musician. I'm just

It's it's it's a different muscle that I think is if you really want to create beautiful things you have to The creation happens here not I think it's more here or whatever. It's some part of the body But it's not with your fingers. Yeah, because I think the fingers is more this sure and then Yes, it is here. Yeah, and it's just nice that you said that because it it's probably really it's really good advice if you want to create Yes, slowing down It's really great too. What do you mean slowing down? Sowing everything down. It could be, you know, I can play something really fast, but I may want to like practice it.

Yeah. Like, go slow as possible. Because there's all these micro movements that are happening that if you just go like you can't pay as close attention to the exact tone that you're pulling from each note and there's a lot to pay attention to to how my fingers are touching the string here. Like I can change my tone a million ways just by the direction of this finger and same with how this lands and how hard I'm attacking the string. And with what intention am I hitting the string? Emotionally, physically. And so even if you can go play that so slow, see how locked into a pocket you can be, see how you feel every aspect of that, because then when it gets sped up, it's still there with you.

Yeah. That's brilliant. It's kind of like the transcended and included thing that Ken Wilbert talks about. I guess that's what meditation can do for you to really listen to, observe every aspect of your body, the breath, and all this. Here, you're observing every element, every super detailed element of playing a single note. Yeah.

That's cool that if you speed it up, it's still there with you. It is. I, I, yeah, it is because I hear, there are certain people, it's like they play really fast, but I don't hear the fullness of tone always and it's like well it's probably because maybe they didn't maybe it's because they didn't slow it down and really sit with each note and let it like resonate through their whole being. His spiritual it's like a spiritual expression it's not just like you know it's not it's not a. A lot of people treat music like a sport. Yeah, since starting to learn more,

like Steve A. Vaughan versus Jimi Hendrix, I would spend quite a long time on single notes or just bending, just like, just listening. So what you can do with bends, spending. Just thinking like people like BB King and all these blues musicians like spend a career just making a single note cry. Yeah. There's like an art form to that. Yeah. And I think you putting it like taking it really slow to never really thought of. It's really good idea. Like

really slow it down. That's the same with like sitting with your own emotions. It's like we, when emotions are overwhelming to us, we get real busy. We move real fast because it's like we don't want to feel our feelings. Those are the moments to slow yourself down. Then observe it. Anger, jealousy. And just be with it. Just be with it. Be like, be cool with it.

Like love it. Love the anger. It's all beautiful. Can you educate me on the difference between bass? Bass and bass. Okay. Well, one is a fish. At least that pronounced the correct. That's good. It's all about the past. You pronounce my name. Tall. Wow. Most people say tall. Tall. Or tall. He said tall. Like so many people in the south, maybe. I don't know, but the fact that you get extra points. Tall. I can't, I didn't know this game. Am I winning? Yeah, like winning. How do you play the bass? What's the difference in fingerstyle and slap? Slap is like this, fingerstalls

like this. Have you ever played bass with a pick? Yeah, sometimes. I'm not accusing you of anything. No accusation taken. I don't know if these are sensitive topics like this. That would be pretty hilarious about sensitive about bass techniques but like not about like love. It just looks so cool like slap it and I don't understand what that's about like that thumb thing that yeah I slapped less a lot less almost never actually it has a very distinctive sound and does a very distinctive thing to a song that is not something I hear needed very often in music today. But in certain styles, like funk, it sounds awesome and it makes sense. It was something that was a bit overused at one point.

For instance, like my mentor, Anthony Jackson, he refused to slap. Like he actually said, if you want me to slap, I'll leave this gig. So I'm not like that. See, that's why I said sense to see. I was like reading into it. Because he was, he's sensitive about it.

I was feeling the spiritual energy of the sensitivity of the top, I think Jackson. And then, I mean, I'm playing electric bass. So generally speaking, you don't particularly want to hear electric bass on straight ahead jazz anyway. You want to hear an upright bass. But if I was to play jazz on electric bass, I might even kind of like palm mute, you know, like instead of

going like, I might go to very, anything to kind of make the notes shorter and less resonant and like kind of fade away because of the upright does that naturally. And I have a different bass, a hollow body harmony that sounds closer to an upright that I'll use in some, like on my song, Under the Sun that I put out, that was on a harmony bass. And it has kind of an upright acoustic tone to it, but with more sustain. And it's just fusion, the style where you have an electric bass. Can you add your K-me with that? Again, you can have both. You can have both on either on anything.

There's no real rules now. I've heard you say something interesting, which is, well, a lot of things you say is interesting. Just one thing. Just one. And it's what time you're leaving. That was that again. Three minutes. That's it's maybe easier sometimes to define a musical genre by the don'ts than the do's. The don'ts than the do's. What are the don'ts of jazz and rock? What are the don'ts of jazz usually? What are the don'ts in any domain of life? What are the don'ts? The don'ts is just to

to please leave your fear at the door. And you do like respond to what's happening now. I Think that quote you're talking about might have been more about an individual musicians unique sound Because everyone has their sound if they've developed their voice and they've listened to their own aesthetic preferences, of which everyone is slightly different, everyone has slightly different likes and dislikes, then you'll have a unique sound on your instrument and your unique sound is defined more by the

choices you make rather than, I mean, it's equally defined by the choices you make and the choices you don't like. I mean, it's the flip side of the same coin, really. Yeah, there's certain musicians you can just tell. It's them. Just, you hear a few notes, and you're like, OK, it's them. Sometimes it's tone, sometimes it's the way they put, they play rhythm. Yeah, it might, that quote, you're talking about might have even had to do with someone's like real limitations on an instrument. But then that would define their sound is the things that they can't like actually can't do versus like what you're choosing to do versus not choosing to do, which is that like flip side of the same coin thing. How many fingers you play with.

It seems like a lot of the greatest musicians aren't technically. Like perfect. The imperfections is the thing that makes them unique and where a lot of the creativity comes from. I mean Hendrix, Hendrix said a lot of those things, the way he put like a thumb over the top. Well, his hands were huge. There was no other place for the thumb to go.

And it was great that he could reach, you know, the e-string and that was an advantage. And he was a lefty playing a right kind of guitar. Yeah. Flipped, I guess. Yeah. That's weird. That probably doesn't have much of an effect, maybe a spiritual one, I don't know. Actually, flipping a guitar is different. It does, you know, bring out something different in you because I've done it flipped in. It's like, oh wow, yeah, it's really different. I remember talking to my osteopath about, there's so much weight on this shoulder while I'm playing all the time. They were saying, just after shows, literally turn it upside down and do the exact same thing in the opposite way.

It'll even out your body and it'll go. It's good advice. Maybe you actually tried it. Mm-hmm. Okay. All right. All right. That done.

All right. Well, do you know a guy named Davey 504? I've heard of him. I recently learned of him. He's a YouTuber and a bass player. He's amazing. He combines memes and also just these brilliant bass compositions and says slap like a lot. He's big into slapping. That's how he's the one that kind of he realized this is a thing. Okay. And he

also said that you're one of the best, not the best bassists in the world. There's a bunch of his fans that wrote in and he analyzed the Jeff Beck thing that we watched across roads is one of the greatest solos ever, bass solos ever. So shout out to him. What does that make you feel like? You're the greatest of all time. Chocolate cookies. Chocolate, is that your favorite? I like macadamia not like if you really want to get into it with like white chocolate. Yeah, that's a rare one for people to say is the favorite. Chocolate chip is just so easy. You can kind of get them anywhere.

Yeah, last thing you want to be easy. You want to be easy. You said that I love rock and roll quote. I love folk. I love jazz. I love Indian classical music. I really love all kinds of music as long as it's authentic and from the heart. So when you play rock versus jelly, you play all kinds of music. What's the difference technically, musically, spiritually for you? Well, there's no spiritual difference.

Okay, I'm not sure. Cross that off the list. But more musically, yeah, it's kind of like what we were saying earlier. It's like each genre has its language of what makes it that genre. And that would be a good thing to say it's defined by the, you know, the Doos and Don'ts. Because yeah, it's like, I'm trying to think basically I put the song first and I think of the song as the melody, the lyrics, and then the harmony and obviously the groove.

So the song goes before the genre in a sense, each song is like it's on thing. They're both things that are held in my mind. It's like, okay, genre, and then song, which is comprised of those basic elements. And I tend to kind of prioritize lyric because somebody is trying to express something over music. And so that lyric is very, very important. And so then the choices come from there. It's like, okay, within the genre of X,

this is the typical language. And then how do I best serve this lyric? And then where else can I pull from that might not be in these two bags that would put a little twist on it. So those are all the kinds of things I might be thinking about. But I don't like twists for the sake of twists either. I like twists because I want to hear something that might be fresh. But when someone does something just to be hip, it's annoying to me. I think you can hear the difference. It's like when people like, they write in odd time signatures or like, they write all these riffs just because they can, just because they have the chops to do it or they know how to play in 1116 and whatever. It's like, but if

it's not actually creating a piece of music that's going to move somebody, then why are you doing it? And so I think a lot of the questions I'm asking myself when I'm approaching a song are mainly philosophical and aesthetic. So you like to stand on the edge of the cliff not for the thrill of it, but because that's where you find something new. Yeah. Potentially. Yeah.

And it's thrilling. But you're not doing it just for the thrill. I'm not doing it for the thrill. It just happens to be thrilling. All right. Because you can always reel for the thrill. It just happens to be thrilling. All right. Because you can always reel it back in. Can you do it? Yeah, you can.

You can do it totally, like disciplined. Like I can go into a session. And, okay, my favorite thing about going into a session with musicians that I adore is that we don't hear the demo. Because if you hear a demo, you're hearing what the producer or songwriter have already imagined that every instrument is playing. And then it's like, well, I've already heard what you want.

Now, my mind is, part of my mind is focused on what I already know you want, and what the destination is going to be. Why did you bring me in here? I want to not hear it. I just want you to set it up, you know, and sing the song with, I want to hear the chords and the lyric and then I'll sit in a acoustic to play it and then let's all go in the room and then take one. I would say 80% of the time take one has the most gold. And there might be like a mistake or two or someone forgot

to go to the B section and and you might wanna like punch that in so that you're hitting the right chord, but all the magic is in that take. And then sometimes it happens where it's like you go, let's say we're rehearsing and take one, two, three, four, four, four, and then you're like thinking about it too much and then you go and you have a dinner

and you come back and the next take one after dinner is the one. It's usually after there's some sort of a break. But obviously there's exceptions to that rule. Sometimes it's take two or three. You said this is something I surprised you about recording with Prince is that he would just so much of it would be take one. So it would just move so quickly. Yeah., well with that particular album that we made together

It's called welcome to America He called me up and asked me he said I want to make a band with you I'm like really inspired by what you're doing with Jeff Beck I want to make a trio. Do you like the drum rolls of Jack Tijonette was like his first question to me I'm like, well, yeah, who doesn't who doesn't like Jack Tijonette like one of first question to me. I'm like, well, yeah, who doesn't? Who doesn't like Jack Dijonette, like one of the greatest of all time? And he's like, well, you know, sounds like, because we had a discussion about drama. He sounds like you're kind of particular about drama. So why don't you find us the drummer?

And I'll trust you to find the drummer. You can audition some people, send me some recordings. And maybe you're two favorites, and I pick pick out of the two or something. So I did that went on a journey found a couple guys he picked the one we went in and He basically just Would be like okay, so the A section is gonna go like this and then the B section I think when it gonna go to G and the and then the bridge section, I think we're gonna go to G and the bridge. I might go to B flat,

but maybe I'll hold off and do it. Okay, let's go. One, two, three, four. And then we recorded it two tape. There was no part, he did not want me to punch anything. Like it was like, and there was one song called, same page, different book. And he like talked through it just like he did. And then he had me soloing between each phrase, like little fills, like, I didn't know that was going to come up. And he loved that. He loved that to have me on the edge of my seat,

like falling off the cliff. That was my first like real like falling off a cliff moment from somebody else holding me at the edge of the cliff, you know what I mean? Now I just do it on my own because it's so fun and it makes sense, it's the best thing for the music. We say punch the tape, is that when you actually record it? Like if you record to tape and there's like say like you hit a bum note like to punch in means to like Fix that note

Like re-record over that one little area and and punch that note in he didn't want that He like he's like all my favorite records just like whatever happened happened That's that moment in time. Let's make a new moment in time. It's great. Nobody makes records like that anymore Let's make a new moment in time. It's great. Nobody makes records like that anymore. Everyone wants to like, you know, edit and re-record this and that. And unfortunately, with a lot of music, I'm not saying all music, because there's plenty of great music coming out.

But there's the danger of it being flat, because every little imperfection is digitally removed. Well, that's one of the promising things about AI is because it can be so perfect that the thing will actually come back to and value about music as the imperfections that humans can create. Yeah. There will be a greater valuation of imperfections. Yeah.

I mean, you can kind of program imperfections too. Yeah, sure. That's, that's also very sad. But then you get closer and closer to what it means to be human. I mean, there'll be ayes among us. There'll be human flawed, like the rest of us, mortal and silly at times. Another big sigh. Is it fair to say that you're very melodic on bass? Like, you make the bass sing more than people normally do?

Is that a compliment? Yes, I think so. Thank you. Moving on to the next question. I mean, by way of understanding, it's just there's something about the way you play bass that just kind of pulls you in the way when you listen to somebody play a guitar, like a guitar solo. The thing I love about Jeff Beck is that he played the guitar like a singer.

And I think that the way that Wayne Shorter played his saxophone, it's like a singer. And I think that the way that Wayne Shorter played is saxophone. It's like a singer. And I think everyone, every musician aspires to just sound like a singer. See, make it sing. Let me ask you about just come back to Hendrix because you said that you had three CDs, Jimmy Hendrix, Herbie Hancock, and Rage Against the Machine. First of all, a great combination. A big rage fan. It's so funny, because when I listen to some of the music that I create like my solo music, I'm like, I could see how this is a combination

of her B. Hancock, Rage Against The Machine and Jimmy Hendrix. I hear the influences, funny. Just from your musician perspective, what's interesting to you about, what really stands out to you about Hendrix I just would love to hear Like a real professional musicians opinion of Hendrix. I love that he is

two voices Combined into one voice. So it's like, there is his voice on the guitar, and there is his singing voice, and there is the combination of the two that make one voice. And of course, the third element is his songwriting. And all of this have this beautiful chemistry and all work geniusously perfectly together. And there's nothing like it.

And, you know, he always beat himself up about being a singer and like he didn't like his voice, but it's like my favorite singers, the singers that don't sound like singers. Bob Dylan. Bob Dylan. He like Bob Dylan. Love Bob Dylan. You love Bob Dylan. Love Bob Dylan.

You love his voice too. I love his voice. Can you explain that you're love affair with Bob Dylan's voice? He's expressing his lyrics. It's just pure expression. Exactly what he means. I feel everything that he's saying with 100% authenticity. That's what I want to hear from a singer. I don't care how many runs you can do and I want to believe what you're saying. Why don't you call him that? Does countless, like, Neil Young, I mean, there's so many musicians. I love Elliot Smith for that reason. Let me ask you about mentorship.

You said teachers and mentors, you had mentors. What's a good mentor for you? Harsh or supportive? It's supportive. It's supportive. You see a web lash? The movie. So that guy, somebody scream me and you like kicking you off the cliff.

Not necessary. I feel like anybody that's truly passionate about something that they want to be great at or a master of this and that. They've already got that person inside their own head. You don't need somebody else to do that for you. I think you need love acceptance guidance support time Advice if you ask for it just a space just a nice open space all my mentors Would just that for me. They didn't tell me to do anything. They don't care. Like, because they're not, why do they need to be invested in where I'm going? Only I know where I'm going. So for some mentor to come and be like,

this is what you need to be doing in practice. It's like, put why? What if that's not my path? That might be your path. So I'm not really, again, otherwise it feels like a sport, like who can run the fastest race? And it's like, well, okay, well, I get feels like a sport, like who can run the fastest race. It's like, well, okay, well, I get that for that sport. Maybe it makes sense to have someone a bit more hardcore, but still, like, I would say

athletes have the same mentality. They've got that in them already, too. So I think more like a strategic approach to mentorship works really well and mainly just Having having an open space and just being available to someone And kind of show that you they see the special in you. Yeah, yeah I think you the room to develop that special whatever exactly because if you do have that harsh critic inside you It's like it is nice to have somebody that isn't like your family or someone that's not obligated in any way that just sees your talent and they're like, yeah, I dig what you're doing, keep doing it. Yeah, it's funny that that's not always easy to come by.

Do you have any mentors? Yeah, I've had a few recently, but for most of my life, people didn't really. Do you have any mentors? Yeah, I've had a few recently, but for most of my life, people didn't really, you know, I'm very much like that too, like somebody to pet me on the back and say like, like, see something in you, of value. Yeah, I didn't really have that. So do you wish you did? Yeah, yeah. But maybe the wishing that I did is the thing that made me who I am,

not having it, the longing for that. Maybe that's the thing that helped me develop a constant sense of longing, which I think is a way of, because I have that engine in me, it really allows me to deeply appreciate every single moment every single Everything that's given to me. So like just a eternal gratitude You never know which the which are the bad parts and the good parts So if you remove one thing it might be It the whole thing might collapse I suppose I'm grateful for the whole thing my collapse. I suppose I'm grateful for the whole thing That one note you screwed up so many years ago that might have been essential

What about you cuz you do jujitsu. Yes, so like you are you I don't my dad does my dad super into it I love my dad. He's the ghost But no, I don't do it. He's a he's a blue belt right now. Nice. Nice. You've ever been on the mountain like not yet But I plan on it should do it. What belt are you black belt sick? Do you want to go on? Yeah, the shit talking part of you just a dumb. You have to do the technique. But like for that, for instance, do you need a harsh mentor or a teacher?

Yeah, but you said it really beautiful. To me, I agree. There's a difference between sport and art. Yeah. They overlap, for sure, but there's something about sport where like perfection is actually, like perfection, perfection is really the thing you really want to get to. The technical perfection. With art, it feels like technical perfection is almost a way to get lost on the path to wherever, something unique. But yeah, with sport, I definitely, I want one of the kind of athletes that wants to have

a dictatorial coach. Somebody that helps me really push myself to the limit. But you're the one that's kind of dictating how hard you're getting pushed in a way. Like you're choosing your mentor. Like that whiplash video is like, he didn't ask for that. You know, the way he might have. Well, maybe, maybe subconsciously. I mean, there's a movie. So next you're going to tell me they're just actors. I mean, and but, you know, yeah, how do we choose things? You know, you don't always choose, but you're going to tell me they're just actors. I mean, and but you know, yeah, how do we choose things? You know, you don't always choose, but you're kind of maybe subconsciously choose. And some of it, like some of the great Olympic athletes I've interacted with, their parents from a years were

forced them to go to practice until they discovered the beauty of the thing that they were doing, and then they loved it. So like, at which point does something that looks like abuse become like a gift, you know? It's weird. It's all very weird. But for you, support and space to discover the thing, the voice, the music within you. Yeah, that's my personal choice because I'm very familiar with the inner critic and I can bring her out at any point. I don't need help with that, you know.

Oh, so you do have a busy schedule? Yeah, I have. She was on overdrive. That's why now I'm, I had to work on that so much. Yeah, you have a really happy way about you right now. Thank you. Very son. Can I ask you about Bruce Springsteen? Yeah, you have a really happy way about you right now. Thank you very much. Can I ask you about Bruce Springsteen? Yeah, sure.

A lot of songs that Fizz I listen to make me feel this melancholy feeling. It's not just Bruce Springsteen, but Bruce does a lot. What is that about songs that arouse a kind of sad feeling or a longing feeling or Feeling what is that what is that about us humans on the receiving end of the music? Frequency's each frequency does elicit a different kind of emotional Response that's that is real You mean like on the physics, that's but yeah, yeah, physical level. So there is that

combined with the right kind of lyric and the right kind of melody of the right kind of chord will listen to very particular kind of emotion. And it is scientific. It can be analyzed. I don't particularly want to analyze it because I don't want to approach things with that. In advance, I don't want it to inform where I'm going. I like the feeling to lead me naturally to where I'm writing. But yeah, there's a real chemical element to that. And then also, like I was saying,

the lyric, what it means to you, which poetry is supposed to mean something to everybody, like different. It's not supposed to mean one thing. Like, you can't analyze and be like, this is what this poet meant. Yeah. And like we were talking about with Leonard earlier,

it's like the broader you can leave a lyric, the better. You can appeal to people in so many different ways. And even to the songwriter, like I'll sing some of my songs from five years ago and I'll be like, oh, I didn't even think that it could have meant that, but I guess it does. That's funny. I'll just giggle on stage suddenly. Elluric will hit me differently from a different

new experience or something. Have you ever cried listening to a song? Of course. We'd like a baby in a bathtub. Which, um, who's a regular go to them? Leonard. Leonard. Yeah. Hall of Louis is a song that consistently makes me feel something. It's holy. His work is holy. And if you were in his presence, I guess there was a lot to that to that being. What advice would you get to young folks on how to have a life they can be part of? Just tackle the demons as early as possible, whether it's through your ride or through meditation or through whatever it means, diaries, whatever it is, just walk towards the things that are scary. Because if you don't, they'll just expand. They become bigger. If you avoid the demons, they become bigger. What does that mean for you today? Are you still missing Jeff? I'll always miss Jeff, but I don't feel like a piece of me is missing.

And same with Leonard, it's that I did give them a piece of myself and maybe they gave me a piece of them that I hold with me and I cherish, but it doesn't feel like I'm less than, well, they're less than or anything's less than just you learn to appreciate the impermanence of everything in life. Impermanence of everything except for consciousness, I guess, you could say as the only thing that is permanent. So everything else, you learn to appreciate that impermanence because the limit amount of time, like in this particular body, it's enticing kind of gives you like a time limit which is cool i like that you've come to accept your own yeah like it's cool that i'm like okay i got this amount of maybe

this amount of time who knows but you could end the day but if i was yeah if i if i died today i'd be really happy with my life okay it's not like i'm like oh i missed out on this and that so you really want to make sure that every day could be your last day and you're happy with that? I've always lived that way. Yeah, I felt this way since I was in my early 20s. I'd be like, yeah, I could die today. Sure. I don't want to die. I have no reason to die. But if I did, I know that I put my everything, all my effort and all my passion

and all my love into whatever I've already done. So if my time's up, then my time's up. What role does love play in this whole thing in the human condition? Well, love is everything. I mean, if you define love, if you're talking about love as in romantic love or paternal or maternal love, or if you're talking about love as in, you know, in an Eastern tradition, like Vedanta, for instance, love is consciousness, love is everything. That's the only permanent thing. Yeah. Or if you were to come from a Zen or like a Buddhist perspective, they would say, nothingness, like emptiness is versus fullness. Well those guys are really obsessed with the whole suffering thing and letting go of it. Yeah. Well, I was wondering if you would do me the honor of playing a song.

Do you want a suffering song or a suffering song? I think I would love a suffering song. Do you want to sound check and make sure I'm not So I'll check One two Yeah, sounds really good. This one too. All right, come me off. Yeah I don't know how to cut somebody off. Where do I start at nine or three? two one There you got it one two one two

I call Out to the ocean My tears fall into the sea For the vows that I've been broken Across the dunes of time repeatedly Like a night in battered armor I lay my sword upon the ground Cause I can't keep fighting these same battles More has been lost than has been found The mask has been found

It's hard to feel things changing After all's been said and done We spend our lives rearranging Everything under the sun I walk the same road to work each Monday Every step tears at my heel I sleep not to dream, but to forget on Sunday Get on Sunday A spoke just turning with the wheel It's hard to feel things changing

After all's been sad and done. We spend our lives rearranging. Everything under the sun Reaching for the sky Be buried in the ground Looking for some way out of the circle Spinning round My eyes on the horizon seeking out the light But don't let me be lost forever in the night

Because it's hard to feel things changing And done, we spend our lives rearranging Everything under the sun, under the sun. You're amazing. That was amazing, tall. Thank you so much. Try turning it to 11. It's quite loud. Can you see it from the headphones? It's like a story. Can you play something? No. Is that your professional? I'll, I'll, I should produce your next record.

Please. Love, don't rescue me I've got nowhere better I want to be wanna be held but not be holding stand in my ground with one eye open this fight doesn't quite add up I thought you were free, but now I'm on the hook for all you've given me. Doesn't matter what I say or think or do You see what you see with the lens you're looking through This fight keeps me tied to the worst in me And it's killing me Kill on me I'm losing my voice, you let me to believe I had a choice, but let's pause, retract our course. You could take my side while I take yours. Keeps me tied to the worst of me

And it's killing me Killin' me I'm a man Love, come rescue me I've got nowhere better I want to be I don't wanna be This fight keeps me tied to the worst in me And it's killin' me Kill me Kill me Kill me Kill me Kill on me. Ah, well there's nowhere else I'd rather be right now. So I'll thank you for this, thank you for the private concert, you're amazing. You really are amazing. And it was a pleasure to meet you and really a pleasure to talk to you today.

Do I get a private concert now if you playing chess with yourself? Yeah. We were out of time, so we got to go. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Tal Wilkinfeld. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, let me leave you with some words from Maya and Jaloo. Music was my refuge. I could crawl into the spaces between the notes and curl my back to loneliness. Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.