Lex Fridman Podcast - #414 – Tucker Carlson: Putin, Navalny, Trump, CIA, NSA, War, Politics & Freedom

Starting point is 00:00:00 The following is a conversation with Tucker Carlson, a highly influential and often controversial political commentator. When he was a Fox, Time Magazine called him the most powerful conservative in America. After Fox, he has continued to host big impactful interviews and shows on X, on the Tucker Carlson podcast and on TuckerCarlson.com. I recommend subscribing, even if you disagree with his views. It is always good to explore a diversity of perspectives. Most recently, he interviewed the president of Russia, Vladimir Putin. We discussed this, the topic of Russia, Putin, Navalny,

Starting point is 00:00:37 and the war in Ukraine at length in this conversation. Please allow me to say a few words about the very fact that I did this interview. I have received a lot of criticism publicly and privately when I announced that I would be talking with Tucker. For people who think I shouldn't do the conversation with Tucker or generally think that there are certain people I should never talk to, I'm sorry but I disagree. I will talk to everyone. As long as they're willing to talk genuinely

Starting point is 00:01:06 in long form for two, three, four more hours, I will talk to Putin and to Zelensky, to Trump and to Biden, to Tucker and to John Stuart, AOC, Obama and many more people with very different views on the world. I want to understand people and ideas. That's what long-form conversations are supposed to be all about. Now, for people who criticize me for not asking tough questions, I hear you, but again, I disagree. I do often ask tough questions, but I try to do it in a way that doesn't shut down the other person, putting them into a defensive state where they give only shallow talking points.

Starting point is 00:01:46 Instead, I'm looking always for the expression of genuinely held ideas and the deep roots of those ideas. When done well, this gives us a chance to really hear out the guest and to begin to understand what and how they think. And I trust the intelligence of you, the listener, to make up your mind, to see through the bullshit, to the degree there's bullshit, and to see to the heart of the person. Sometimes I fail at this, but I'll continue working my ass off to improve. All that said, I find that this no-tough-questions-criticism often happens when the guest as a person

Starting point is 00:02:23 and the listener simply hates, and wants to see them grilled into embarrassment called the liar a greedy egomaniac a killer maybe even an evil human being and so on if you are such a listener what you want is drama not wisdom in this case this show is not for you there are many shows you can go to for that, with hosts that are way more charismatic and entertaining than I'll ever be. If you do stick around, please know I will work hard to do this well and to keep improving. Thank you for your patience and thank you for your support. I love you all. And now a quick view second mention of each sponsor.

Starting point is 00:03:07 Check them out in the description. It is in fact the best way to support this podcast. We've got Zipper Kruder for hiring, listening for, well, listening to academic papers, hidden layer for securing your AI models, element for delicious electrolytes, that I'm drinking right now, and AG1 for other kinds of delicious nutrition.

Starting point is 00:03:29 Choose WADS and my friends. Also, if you want to work with our amazing team or in general just get in touch with me, please go to lexfreedman.com slash contact. And now, onto the full ad reads. As always, no ads in the middle. I try to make this interesting, but if you must skip them, friends, please do check out our sponsors. I enjoy their stuff.

Starting point is 00:03:50 Maybe you will too. Speaking of hiring, this episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter, a site that connects employers and job seekers. So if you're looking to hire, if you're looking to get hired, that's the place to go. I think one of the most important things in life is optimizing, controlling, deciding, figuring out the people you surround yourself with. And for those of you like me that spend most of their life working and love what they do, but actually whether you love it or not, if you spend most of your time working, it's really important to choose the place you work correctly. And if you're

Starting point is 00:04:32 hiring, it's really important to build the kind of team where everybody really enjoys hanging out with each other. I think that's not just for productivity's sake, that's also for the happiness of everybody involved. You know, most of my life I spent working with engineers and scientists and that's a different kind of breed of people and I've gotten to know that world but these days I get to work with creative people and they're different. They're quite different. I would say it's more complicated. I had to learn a lot of difficult lessons the hard way I would say But I got to meet a lot of incredible people a lot of different kinds of incredible

Starting point is 00:05:13 I've gotten to figure out that people can be incredible in all kinds of different ways that full diversity of incredibleness It just brings me joy And you should use the best tools for the job to build that team. See why 4 out of 5 employers who post on Zippercruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Go to zippercruiter.com slash lex to try it for free. That's zippercruiter.com slash lex, the smartest way to hire. This episode is also brought to you by a listening.

Starting point is 00:05:42 Another new sponsor. It's an app that allows you to listen to academic papers, not just academic papers, all kinds of stuff, books, PDFs, web pages, articles, even email newsletters. The really powerful thing is that it uses AI voices that can pronounce really challenging words. Also for academic papers, that's the way I use it. It skips all the stuff you don't want to read and that's not a trivial thing to figure out

Starting point is 00:06:07 how to do, by the way, so they have figured it out. And so you can listen to academic papers and it pronounces stuff like it's pleasant to listen to. You do have to like really focus your mind. I would say so. I don't like to do it during running but I like to do it in a bunch of other contexts. Like there's something just more compelling to listening in certain kinds of contexts. Sometimes I like printing it out and reading, sometimes I like listening. Both are really, really good. Anyway, you can also do note taking. You click the add or whatever it's called plus note button, and then it automatically grabs the last two or three sentences and then saves them. And you don't need to type anything, it's just really simple.

Starting point is 00:06:48 One click. And the uploading of the paper or whatever you want to listen to is super simple too. So, it's just the whole pipeline is done well. It's easy. I recommend you at least try it. Normally, you would get a two week free trial, but listeners of this very podcast, you get one month free. So go to listening.com slash Lex, that's listening.com slash Lex.

Starting point is 00:07:14 This episode is also brought to you by Hidden Layer, a platform that provides security for your artificial intelligence and machine learning models. I'm actually going to have a bunch of conversations in the upcoming weeks and months on artificial intelligence. I think with Gemini, the language model that Google released, updated one, 1.5,

Starting point is 00:07:40 there's been a lot of questions raised about how to do this well, how to not allow ideology to seep in to the systems you create. There's a lot of really interesting questions. Uh, what's the role of open source? What's the role of transparency? All of that. And I'll be sure to talk to, uh, meta to Google, to X AI, to open AI folks, all of it. All of those people are incredible in facing this really

Starting point is 00:08:06 difficult problem together in the open and sometimes they mess it up and they get criticized for it and it's a beautiful thing. Anyway, AI as we develop and try to figure out how to do it in a good way, in a way that benefits humanity, is a really, really, really important problem. And one of the things you need to do in terms of solving AI safety is how to do it in a way that can't get hacked. And you can get real creative, just like malware for the old school kinds of software,

Starting point is 00:08:36 you can get creative on how to hack machine learning models. And that's what Hidden Layer specializes in, trying to help you, if you're a company, to figure out how to not get your models hacked. You can visit hiddenlayer.com slash Lex to learn more about how Hidden Layer can accelerate your artificial intelligence adoption in a secure way.

Starting point is 00:08:58 By the way, I just like saying AI fully pronounced. It's just fun to say. There you have it. This episode is also brought to you by Element. The thing I'm drinking right now, and I have been drinking for a long time, multiple times a day, because it makes me feel good when I'm fasting. For a long time now, for a long time. I don't remember how long, but I've been eating only once a day. I think I sometimes make exceptions for that in the social setting.

Starting point is 00:09:31 So do snacks of all kinds. It really doesn't matter. So it's not super, super strict, but it just makes me happy. So eating once a day, mostly meat, very low carb. If you want to do that, right? The fasting or the low carb stuff, you really want to make sure you get your electrolytes, right? Sodium, potassium, magnesium, all that kind of stuff. So, element really helps with that, especially because it's delicious. Also, it helps you drink a lot of water. So, I take one of those Pond Raid bottles. That has how many? Let me see. 28 fluid ounces, fill it up with water, put it in the fridge so it's cold, and then put one packet of watermelon salt in there and shake it up and it's ready to go. It's delicious. You can get a simple

Starting point is 00:10:11 pack for free with any purchase. Try it at drinkelement.com slash Lex. This episode is also brought to you by AG1, our old, old friend AG1. It's an all-in-one daily drink to support better health and peak performance. I suppose it's becoming a meme, how much I and other friends of mine are loving AG1. Andrew Huberman, who I love also loves AG1. I don't know, it's delicious. It makes me feel like there's at least something in my life

Starting point is 00:10:45 I'm not messing up. So it's a safe place I return to for grounding. So whatever crazy diet stuff I do, whatever crazy mental physical stuff I do, I know I can at least get my nutrition right. The vitamins and all that kind of stuff get that right. It's basically a fancy multivitamin, right, the vitamins and all that kind of stuff, get that right. It's basically a fancy multivitamin, but it's a super awesome multivitamin, and it's a delicious one. I don't know what else to say.

Starting point is 00:11:10 You should be consuming a multivitamin, and this is like the best by far that you can do. So, but for me, I don't know, in terms of physical and mental health, it really just makes me happy. Maybe it'll make you happy as well. They'll give you one month supply of fish oil when you sign up at drinkag1.com slash Lex.

Starting point is 00:11:33 This is a Lex Friedman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Tucker Carlson. Here's Tucker Carlson. What was your first impression when you met Vladimir Putin for the interview? I thought he seemed nervous. And I was very surprised by that. And I thought he seemed

Starting point is 00:12:10 like someone who'd overthought it a little bit, who had a plan. And I don't think that's the right way to go into any interview. My strong sense, having done a lot of them for a long time, is that it's better to know what you think, to say, you know, as much as you can honestly, so you don't get confused by your own lies, and just to be yourself. And I thought that he went into it like an overprepared student. And I kept thinking, why is he nervous? But, you know, I guess because he thought a lot of people were going to see it, but he was also probably prepared to, um, to give you a full lesson in history as he did. Well, I was totally shocked by that and very annoyed because I thought he was filibustering.

Starting point is 00:12:58 I thought he, I mean, I asked him as I usually do, the most obvious dumbest question ever, which is, you know, why'd you do this? And he had said in a speech that I think is worth reading, I don't speak Russian, so I haven't heard it in the original, but he had said at the moment of the beginning of the war, he had given this address to Russians in which he explained to the fullest extent we have seen so far why he was doing this. And he said in that speech, I fear that NATO, the West, the United States, the Biden administration will preemptively attack us. And I thought, well, that's interesting. I mean, I can't evaluate whether that's a fear rooted in reality or one rooted in paranoia. But I thought, well, that's an answer

Starting point is 00:13:44 right there. And so I alluded to that in my question. But I thought, well, that's an answer right there. And so I alluded to that in my question. And rather than answering it, he went off on this long, from my perspective, kind of tiresome, sort of greatest hits of Russian history and the implication I thought was, well, Ukraine is ours or Eastern Ukraine is ours already. And I thought he was doing that to avoid answering the question. So, you know, the last thing you want when you're interviewing someone is to get rolled. And I didn't want to be rolled. So I, a couple of times interrupted him politely, I thought, but he wasn't having it. And then I thought, you know what, I'm not here to prove that I'm a great interviewer. It's kind of not about me. I want to know who

Starting point is 00:14:26 this guy is. I think a Western audience, a global audience has a right to know more about the guy, and so just let them talk. You know, because it's not, you know, I don't feel like my reputations on the line. People have already drawn conclusions about me, I suppose, to the extent they have. I'm not interested really in those conclusions anyway. So just let him talk. And so I calmed down and just let him talk. And in retrospect, I thought that was really, really interesting. Whether you agree with it or not, or whether you think it's relevant to the war in Ukraine or not,

Starting point is 00:14:55 that was his answer. And so it's inherently significant. Well, you said he was nervous. Were you nervous? Were you afraid? This is Vladimir Putin. I wasn't afraid at all. And I wasn't nervous at all.

Starting point is 00:15:05 Did you drink tea beforehand? No, I did my normal regimen of nicotine pouches and coffee. No, I'm not a tea drinker. I tried not to eat, you know, all the sweets they put in front of us, which is that that is my weakness is eating crap. But you eat a lot of sugar before, as you know, before an interview and it does dull you. So I successfully resisted that. But no, I wasn't nervous. I wasn't nervous the whole time I was there. Why would I be? You know, I'm 54, my kids are grown, I believe in God, you know, I'm not, I'm almost never nervous. But no, I wasn't nervous. I was just interested. I mean, I couldn't, I, you know,

Starting point is 00:15:41 I'm interested in Soviet history. I studied it in college. I've read about it my entire life. My dad worked in the Cold War. It was a constant topic of conversation. And so to be in the Kremlin in a room where Stalin made decisions, either wartime decisions or decisions about murdering his own population, I just couldn't get over it. You know, we're in Molotov's old office. So for me, that was, I was just blown away by that. I knew, I thought I knew a lot about Russia. It turns out I knew a lot about the Soviet period, you know, the 1937 Purge trials, the famine in Ukraine.

Starting point is 00:16:12 Like I knew a fair amount about that, but I really knew nothing about contemporary Russia less than I thought I did, it turned out. And, but yeah, I was just, I was just blown away by where we were. And that's kind of one of the main drivers at this stage in my life. That's why I do what I do is because I'm interested in stuff and I wanna see as much as I can and try and draw conclusions from it to the extent I can.

Starting point is 00:16:37 So I was very much caught up in that, but no, I wasn't nervous. I didn't think he was gonna kill me or something and I'm not particularly afraid of that anyway. Not afraid of dying. Not really. No. I mean, again, it's a time, you know, it's an age and stage in life thing. I mean, I have four children. So there were times when they were little where I was terrified of dying because if I died, it would have huge consequences. But no, I mean, at this point, I don't want to die. I'm really enjoying my life. But I've been with the same girl for 40 years. And I have four children

Starting point is 00:17:10 who I'm extremely close to, well, now five, a daughter-in-law. And I love them all. I'm really close to them. I tell them I love them every day. I've had a really interesting life. What was the goal? Just linger on that. What was the goal for the interview? Like, how were you thinking about it? What would success be like in your head leading into it? To bring more information. Just information. To the public. Yeah, that's it. I mean, I have really strong feelings about what's happening not just in Ukraine or Russia, but around the world. I think the world is resetting to the grave disadvantage of the United States. I don't think most Americans are aware of that at all. And so that's my view and I've stated it many times

Starting point is 00:17:50 because it's sincere. But my goal was to have more information brought to the West so people could make their own decisions about whether this is a good idea. I mean, I just, I guess I reject the whole premise of the war in Ukraine from the American perspective, which is a tiny group of dumb people in Washington has decided to do this for reasons they won't really explain. And you don't have a role in it at all as an American citizen, as the person who's paying for it, whose children might be drafted to fight it, to shut up and obey. I just reject that completely. You know, I'm a, I think I guess I'm a child of a different era.

Starting point is 00:18:29 I'm a child of participatory democracy to some extent, where your opinion as a citizen is not irrelevant. And so I'm just, and I guess the level of lying about it was starting to drive me crazy. And I've said, and I will say again, I am not an expert on the region or really any region other than say, Western Maine. I just don't, you know, I'm not Russian. And, but it was obvious to me that we were being lied to in ways that were just, it was crazy, the scale of the lives. I don't give you one example. The idea that Ukraine would inevitably win this war.

Starting point is 00:19:05 Now, victory was never, as it never is, defined precisely. Nothing's ever defined precisely, which is always to tell that there's deception at the heart of the claim. But Ukraine's on the verge of winning. Well, I don't know. I mean, I'm hardly a tactician or a military expert. For the fifth time, I'm not an expert on Russia or Ukraine. I just look at Wikipedia. Russia has 100 million more people than Ukraine. 100 million. It has much deeper industrial capacity, more material capacity than all of NATO combined. For example, Russia is turning out artillery shells, which are significant in a ground war, at a ratio of seven to one, compared to all NATO countries combined.

Starting point is 00:19:50 That's all of Europe. Russia is producing seven times the artillery shells as all of Europe combined? What? That's an amazing fact. And it turns out to be a really significant fact, in fact, the significant fact. But if you ask your average person in this country, even a fairly well-informed person of good faith who's just trying to understand what's going on, who's going to win this war? Well, Ukraine's going to win. They're on the right side. And they think that because our media, who really just do serve

Starting point is 00:20:17 the interests of the US government, period, they are state media in that sense, have told them that for over two years. And I was in Hungary last summer talking to the Prime Minister, Viktor Orban, who's a, you know, whatever you think of him as a very smart guy, very smart guy, like smart on a scale that we're not used to in our leaders. And I said to him off camera, so was Ukraine going to win? And he looked at me like I was deranged, like I was congenitally deficient. Are they going to win? No, of course they can't win. It's tiny compared to Russia. Russia has a wartime economy. Ukraine doesn't really have an economy. No, look at the populations. He was like, looked at me like I was stupid.

Starting point is 00:20:57 And I said to him, you know, I think most Americans believe that because NBC News and CNN and all the news channels, all of them tell them that because it's framed exclusively in moral terms and it's Churchill versus Hitler and of course Churchill is going to prevail in the end and it's just so dishonest that even it doesn't even matter What I want to happen or what I think ought to happen That's a distortion of what is happening And if I have any job at all which I sort of don't actually at this point But if I do have a job it's to just try to be honest And that's a why there is a more nuanced discussion about what winning might look like you're right Sure

Starting point is 00:21:30 I knew on discussions not being had but it is possible for Ukraine to quote-unquote win with the help of the United States I guess that conversation needs to begin by defining terms and The key term is win. What does that mean? Peace, a ceasefire, who owns which land? Yes. Coming to the table with, as you call, the parent in the United States. Yes. Putting leverage on the negotiation to make sure there's a fairness. Amen. Well, of course, as a, and I should just restate this, I am not emotionally involved in this. I'm American in every sense, and my only interest is in America.

Starting point is 00:22:11 I'm not leaving ever. And so I'm looking at this purely from our perspective. What's good for us? But I was a human being as a Christian. I mean, I hate war, and anybody who doesn't hate war shouldn't have power, in my opinion. So I agree with those. That definition vehemently, a victory is like not killing an entire generation of your population. It's not being completely destroyed to be eaten up by BlackRock or whatever comes next for them. So yeah, we were close to that a year and a half ago,

Starting point is 00:22:46 and the Biden administration dispatched Boris Johnson, the briefly prime minister of the UK to stop it and to say to Zelensky, who I feel sorry for, by the way, because he's caught between these forces that are bigger than he is, to say, no, you cannot come to any terms with Russia. And the result of that is not being a Ukrainian victory, it's just been more dead Ukrainians and a lot of profit for the West.

Starting point is 00:23:09 It's a moral crime in my opinion. And I tried to ask Boris Johnson about it because why wouldn't I after he denounced me as a tool of the Kremlin or something and he demanded a million dollars to talk to me. And this just happened last week. And by the way, in writing too, I'm not making this. I'm not making this up. Just for the record, you demanded a million dollars for me to talk to me today.

Starting point is 00:23:32 I did it. And you paid. No, I'm of course kidding. And I said to his guy, I said, I just interviewed Putin, who was widely recognized as a bad guy. And he did it for free. He didn't demand a million dollars, he wasn't in this for profit.

Starting point is 00:23:47 Like are you telling me that Boris Johnson is sleazier than Vladimir Putin? And of course that is the message. And so I guess these are really, it's not just about Boris Johnson being a sad, you know, rapacious fraud, which he is obviously, but it's about like the future of the West and the future of Ukraine, this country that purportedly we care so much about, always people are dying and like, what is the end game? It's also deranged that I didn't imagine and don't imagine that I could like add anything very meaningful to the conversation because I'm not a genius, okay? But I felt like I could at the very least puncture some of the lies and that's an

Starting point is 00:24:27 inherent good. Vladimir Putin after the interview said that he wasn't fully satisfied because he weren't aggressive enough. You didn't ask sharp enough questions. First of all, what do you think about him saying that? I don't even understand it. I guess it does seem like the one Putin statement that Western media take at face value. Everything else Putin says is a lie except his criticism of me, which is true. But I mean, I have no idea what he meant by that. I can only tell you what my goal was, as I've suggested, was not to make it about me. I watched, you know, he hasn't done any interviews of any kind for years. But the last interview he did with an English-speaking reporter, Western media reporter,

Starting point is 00:25:14 was like many of the other interviews he'd done with Western media reporters. Mike Wallace's son did an interview with him that was of the same variety and it was all about him. You know, I'm a good person, you're a bad person. And I just feel like that's the most tiresome, fruitless kind of interview. It's not about me. I don't think I'm an especially good person. I've definitely never claimed to be. But people can make their own judgments. And again, the only judgments that I care about are my wife and children and God. So I'm just not interested in proving I'm a good person.

Starting point is 00:25:40 And I just want to hear from him. And I had a lot of, I mean, you should see the, I almost never write questions down, but I did in this case because I had months, well, I had three years to think about it as I was trying to book the interview, which I did myself. But they were all, it was all about internal Russian politics and Navalny. And, and I had a lot of, I thought really good questions. And then at the last second, and you make these decisions, as you know, since you interview people a lot,

Starting point is 00:26:08 often you make them on the fly. And I thought, no, I wanna talk about the things that haven't been talked about, and that I think matter in a world historic sense. And then number one among those, of course, is the war, and what it means for the world. And so I stuck to that. I mean, I could dance.

Starting point is 00:26:24 I did ask about Gershkovich, who I felt sorry for, and I wanted Putin to release him to me. And I was offended that he didn't. I thought his rationale was absurd. Well, we want to trade him for someone. I said, well, that doesn't make him a hostage. You know, which of course it does. But other than that, I really wanted to keep it to the things that I think matter most. You know, people can judge whether I did a good job or not, but that was my decision. In the moment, what was your gut? Did you want to ask some tough questions as follow-ups on certain topics?

Starting point is 00:26:57 I don't know what it would mean to ask a tough question. Clarifying questions, I suppose they would... I guess. I just wanted him to talk. You know, I just wanted to hear his perspective again I've Probably asked more asshole questions and like any living American, you know, I'm as has been noted correctly I'm a dick by my nature and

Starting point is 00:27:18 So I don't I I just feel at this stage in my life I didn't need to prove that I could like You know, I didn't need to prove that I can like fly to Reputinium to the question. Sure. For sure. You know, I think if I had been, you know, 34 instead of 54, I definitely would have done that because I would have thought this is really about me and I need to prove myself and all that stuff. No, I just there's a war going on that is wrecking the U.S. economy in a way and out of scale.

Starting point is 00:27:42 People do not understand the U.S. dollars going away. That was, of course, inevitable inevitable ultimately because everything dies including currencies but that death, that process of death has been accelerated exponentially by the behavior of the Biden administration and the US Congress particularly the sanctions and people don't understand what the ramifications of that are. The ramifications are poverty in the United States. to understand what the ramifications of that are. The ramifications are poverty in the United States, okay? So I just wanted to get to that because I'm coming at this from not a global perspective.

Starting point is 00:28:11 I'm coming at it from an American perspective. So you mentioned Navalny. After you left, Navalny died in prison. Yes. What are your thoughts on just at a high level first about his death? That's awful. I mean, imagine dying in prison. You know, I've thought about it a lot. I've known a lot of people in prison a lot, including some very good friends of mine. So I felt instantly sad about it. From a geopolitical perspective, I don't know any more than that. And I laugh at

Starting point is 00:28:44 and sort of resent, but mostly find amusing, the claims by American politicians who really are the dumbest politicians in the world, actually. You know, this happened. And here's what it means. And it's like, actually, as a factual matter, we don't know what happened.

Starting point is 00:28:58 We don't know what happened. We have no freaking idea what happened. We can say, and I did say, and I will say again, I think you should put opposition figures say again, I think I don't think you should put opposition figures in person. I really don't. I don't. Period. It happens a lot around the world happens in this country, as you know, and I'm against all of it. But do we know how we died? Short answer, no, we don't. Now, if I had to guess, I would say killing Navalny during the Munich Security Conference in the middle of a debate over $60 billion in Ukraine funding. Maybe the Russians are dumb. I didn't

Starting point is 00:29:33 get that vibe at all. I don't see it, but maybe they killed him. They certainly put him in prison, which I'm against. But here's what I do know is that we don't know. And so when Chuck Schumer stands up and Joe Biden reads some card in front of him with lines about Navalny, it's like, I'm allowed to laugh at that because it's absurd. You don't know. I mean, there's a lot of interesting ideas about if he was killed, who killed him. Because it could be Putin. It could be somebody in Russia who is not Putin. Yeah. It could be Ukrainians because it would benefit the war. They killed Dugan's daughter in Moscow. So yeah, that's possible.

Starting point is 00:30:12 And it could be, I mean, the United States could also be involved. I don't think we kill people in other countries to affect election outcomes. Oh, wait, no, we do it a lot and have for 80 years and it's shameful. I can say that as an American because it's my money in my name. Yeah, I'm really offended by that. And I never thought that was true. And I spent, again, I'm much older than you. And so I spent my worldview was defined by the Cold War. And very much in the house I lived in, in Georgetown, in Washington, D.C. You know, that's what we talked about. And yeah, in the left at the time, you know, I don't know, the WACCO MIT professor who I never had any respect

Starting point is 00:30:51 for, who I know you've interviewed, etc. Like the hard left was always saying, well, the United States government is interfering in other elections. And I just dismissed that completely out of hand as stupid and actually a slander against my country, but it turned out to all be true or substantially true anyway. And that's been a real shock for me in middle age to understand that. But anyway, as to Navalny, look, I don't know, but we should always proceed on the basis of what we do know, which is to say on the basis of truth, knowable truth. And if you have an entire policy making apparatus that is making the biggest decisions on the

Starting point is 00:31:28 face of the planet, on the basis of things that are bullshit or lies, you're going to get bad outcomes every time, every time. And that's why we are where we are. Does it bother you that basically the most famous opposition figure in Russia is sitting in prison? Well, of course it does. Of course, it bothers me. I mean, it bothered me when I got there, it bothers me now, I was sad when he died. Yeah, I mean, that's one of the measures of, it's one of the basic measures of political freedom. Are you imprisoning people who oppose you?

Starting point is 00:32:02 You know, are you imprisoning people who pose a physical risk to you? I mean, there's some subjective decision-making involved in these things. However, big picture, yeah. Do you have opposition leaders in jail? It's not a free, it's not a politically free society, and Russia isn't, obviously. And as I said, a friend of mine from childhood, an American, actually, is a wonderful person, lives in Russia with his Russian, Moscow with his Russian wife, and I had dinner with him. He's a very balanced guy, totally non-political person. And, and speaks

Starting point is 00:32:36 Russian and loves his many Russian children and loves the culture. And there's a lot to love, the culture that produced Tolstoy. You know, it's not a gas station with nuclear weapons Sorry, only an Amoran would say that it's a very deep culture. I don't fully understand it, of course But I admire it who wouldn't but I asked him like what's it like living here? And he goes, you know, it's great. Moscow is a great city indisputably He said you don't want to get involved in Russian politics. I said what? He said well, you could get hurt you could wind up like Navalny if you did. But also it's just too complicated.

Starting point is 00:33:08 You know, the Russian mind is not is not exactly the same. It's a Western. It's a European city. But it's not quite European. And the way they think is very, very complex, very complex. It's just it's too complicated. Just don't get involved. And I would just say two things.

Starting point is 00:33:24 One, I'm not sure. I mean, I don't know. But my strong sense is that Navalny's death, whoever did, probably didn't have a lot to do with the coming election in Russia. My sense from talking to Putin and the people around him is they're not really focused on that. I mean, in fact, I asked one of his top advisors when's the election and she looked at me completely confused. She didn't know the date of the election. Okay. She's like a march. Okay. And I asked a bunch of other people just in Moscow, who's

Starting point is 00:33:55 Putin running against like nobody knew. So it's not a real election, right? In the sense that we would recognize at all. Second, I was really struck by so many things in Moscow and deeply bothered by a lot of things that I saw there. But one thing I noticed was the total absence of cult of personality propaganda, which I expected to see and have seen around the world. Jordan, for example, if you've been to Jordan, but go to Jordan and every building

Starting point is 00:34:26 There are pictures of the king and his extended family and and that's a sign of political insecurity You know, you don't create a cult of personality Unless you're personally insecure and also unless you're worried about losing your grip and power through none of that It's interesting and I expected to see a lot of it, you know, like statues of Putin Yeah, there's no statues of anybody other than like Christian saints. So that was like I'm not not quite sure I'm just reporting what I saw. So yes, it's not a, in a political sense, it's not a free country. It's not a democracy in the way that we would understand it or want I don't want to live there. Okay,

Starting point is 00:35:01 because I like to say what I think. In fact, I make my living doing it. I don't want to live there, okay? Cause I like to say what I think. In fact, I make my living doing it. But it's not Stalinist in a recognizable way. And anyone who says it is should go there and tell me how. I mean, this question about the freedom of the press is underlying the very fact of the interview you're having with him.

Starting point is 00:35:22 So you might not need to ask the Navalny question, but did you feel like, are there things I shouldn't say? I mean, how honest do you want me to be? I mean it when I say I felt not one twinge of concern for the eight days that I was there. Maybe I just didn't. And I feel like I've got a pretty strong gut-sensitive things. I rely on it. I make all my decisions based on how I feel, my instincts. And I didn't feel it at all. My lawyers, before I left, and these are people who work for a big law firm, this is not Bob's law firm, this is one of the biggest law firms in

Starting point is 00:35:56 the world, said, you're going to get arrested if you do this by the US government on sanctions violations. And I said, well, I don't recognize the legitimacy of that actually, because I'm American and I've lived through my whole life and that's so outrageous that I'm happy to face that risk because I so reject the premise. Okay? I'm an American, I should all talk to anyone I want to and I plan to exercise that freedom, which I think I was born with. I gave them this long lecture, they're like, we're just lawyers. But that was, um, it was, it was, let me put it this way. I don't know how much you dealt with lawyers, but it costs many thousands of dollars to get a conclusion like that. Like they sent a whole bunch of their summer associates or whatever they sent. They put a lot of people on this question,

Starting point is 00:36:40 checked a lot of precedent and I think, and they sent me a 10 page memo on it, and their sincere conclusion was, do not do this. And of course, it may be mad. So I was lecturing on the phone and I had another call with the head lawyer and he said, look, a lot will depend on the questions that you ask Putin. If your scene is too nice to him, you could get arrested when you come back. And I was like, you're describing a fascist country, okay? You're saying that the US government will arrest me if I don't ask the questions they want asked. Is that's what you're saying? Well, we just think based on what's happened that that's possible. And so, I'm just telling you what happened.

Starting point is 00:37:17 So you were okay being arrested in Moscow and arrested in back in Moscow? I didn't think for a second, I mean, maybe, look, I don't speak Russian. I'd never been there before Everything about the culture was brand new to me. You know Ignorance does protect You sort of when you have no freaking idea what's going on. You're not worried about it. This has happened to me many times There's a principle there that extends throughout life So it's completely possible that I was in grave peril and didn't know it. Because like, how would I know it?

Starting point is 00:37:47 You know, I'm like a bumbling English speaker from California. But I didn't feel it at all. But the lawyers did. Yeah, I mean, it scared the crap out of people. You're gonna look and I, you have to pay in cash. They don't take credit cards because of sanctions and you have to go through all these hoops, just procedural hoops to go to Russia Which I was willing to do because I wanted to interview Putin because they told me I couldn't but then there's another fact

Starting point is 00:38:13 Which is that I was being surveilled by the US government Intensely surveilled by the US government and this came out They admitted it the NSA admitted it a couple of years ago that they were up in my signal account And then they leaked it to the New Yorkers. They did that again before I left. And I know that because two New York Times reporters, one of whom I actually like a lot, said, oh, you're going and called other people. Oh, he's going to interview Putin. I hadn't told anybody that, like anybody, like my wife, two producers.

Starting point is 00:38:40 That's it. So they got that from the government. Then I'm over there. And of course, I want to see Snowden, who I admire. And so we have a mutual friend, so I got his text and come on over and Snowden does not want publicity at all. And so, but I really wanted to have dinner with him. So we had dinner in my hotel room at the Four Seasons in Moscow. And I said, I tried to convince him, I mean, I'd love to do an interview, shoot it on my iPhone. You know, I'd love to take a picture together and put it on the internet because I just want to show support because I think he's

Starting point is 00:39:13 been railroaded. He had no interest in living in Russia, no intention of being in Russia. The whole thing is alive. But anyway, whatever, all this stuff. And he just said respectfully, I'd rather not anyone know that we met. Great great the only reason I'm telling you this is because And I didn't tell anybody and I didn't text it to anybody. Okay, except him Semaphore semaphore Runs this piece saying report reporting this piece saying reporting information they got from the US intel agencies leaking against me using my money in my name in a supposedly free country. They run this piece saying I'd

Starting point is 00:39:53 met with Snowden, like it was a crime or something. So again, what my interest is in the United States and preserving freedoms here, the ones that I grew up with. And if you have a media establishment that acts as an auxiliary of or acts as employees of the national security state, you don't have a free country. And that's where we are. And I'm not guessing because I spent my entire life in that world, 33 years I worked in big news companies. And so I know how it works. I know the people involved in it, I could name them Ben Smith of Semaphore, among many others, and I find that really objectionable. Not just on principle either, in effect, in practice. I don't want to live in that kind of country. And people are like, they externalize all of their anxiety about this, I have noticed. So it's like, Russia's not free. Yeah, I know. You know, neither's,

Starting point is 00:40:41 you know, Burkina Faso, like most countries aren't free actually, but we are. Where the United States were different. And that's my concern, preserving that is my concern. And so they get so exercised about what's happening in other parts of the world, places they've never been or nothing about. It's almost a way of ignoring what's happening in their own country right around them. I find it so strange and sad and weird. So the NSA was tracking you? Do you think CIA was? Is people still tracking you?

Starting point is 00:41:11 Look, one of the things I did before I went, just because of the business I'm in, all of us are in, and just because we live here, you know, we all have theories about secure communications channels. Like Signal is secure, telegraph isn't or WhatsApp is owned by Mark Zuckerberg. You can't trust me when I say, okay. So I thought, you know, before I go over here, I was getting all this. We're having all these conversations. My producers and I about this.

Starting point is 00:41:36 And I decide, you know, I'm just going to, I'm just going to actually find out like what's really going on. So I talked to two people who would know, trust me. And that's all I can say. And I hate to be like, oh, I talked to people who would know if I can't do there. But I mean it, they would know. And both of them said exactly the same thing, which is, are you joking? Nothing is secure. Everything is monitored all the time. If state actors are involved. I mean, you can keep the, you know, whatever the Malaysian mafia from reading your texts probably, you cannot keep the big Intel services from reading your texts. It's not possible, any of them or listening to your calls. So, and that

Starting point is 00:42:17 was the firm conclusion of people who've been involved in it, you know, for a long time, decades both in both cases. So I just thought, you know what? I don't care. I don't care. I'm not sending a ton of naked pictures to myself to anybody. Not a ton, just a ton. I'm 54, dude, probably not too many. Um, but, but you see, so I'm like, I'm just so the guys travel with three people I work with who I love, who I've been around the world with for many years. And I know them really, really well.

Starting point is 00:42:46 And they all got, you know, separate phones that I'm leaving my other phone back in New York or whatever. And I just decided I don't care, actually. And I resent having to no privacy because privacy is a prerequisite for freedom. But I can't change it. And so I have the same surveilled cell phone. And, you know, I do switch them out because there it is. Because if you have too much spyware on your phone, this is true.

Starting point is 00:43:17 It wrecks the battery. And no, I'm serious. It does. And we got, it was, I don't know, five or six years ago, we went to North Korea. And my phone started acting crazy. And so I talked to someone on the National Security Council who actually called me about this,

Starting point is 00:43:35 somehow knew that your phone is being surveilled by the South Korean government. I was like, why the, I like the South Korean government. Why would they do that? Because they want more information. They thought I was talking to Trump or whatever. So, but I could tell because all of a sudden the thing would just drain in like 45 minutes.

Starting point is 00:43:52 So that is, that's a downside. So you keep switching phones, getting new phones for the battery life. Yeah. I mean, I try not to do it, you know, I'm kind of flinty Yankee type in some ways. So I don't, I don't like to spend $1,000 with a freaking Apple corporation too often. But yeah, I do. I mean, you say it lightly, but it's really troublesome that you as a journalist would be tracked. Well, they leaked it to semaphore and they leaked it to the New York Times.

Starting point is 00:44:18 Look, it's, I would even put up, well, there's nothing I can do. So I have to put up with everything. Okay. But I would probably not be actively angry about being surveilled because I'm just so old and I actually do pay my taxes, I'm not sleeping with the makeup artist or whatever. So I don't care that much. The fact that they are leaking against me, that the Intel services in the United States are actively engaged in US politics and media.

Starting point is 00:44:46 That's so unacceptable. That makes democracy impossible. There's no defense of that. And yet NBC News, Kendall, and the rest will defend it. And it's like, and not just on NBC News, by the way, on the supposedly conservative channels too, they will defend it. And there's no defending that. You can't have democracy if the Intel services are tampering in elections and information, period. So you had no fear. You know, your lawyer said, be careful which questions you asked. You said, I don't have... Well, the lawyer said, no, he said very specifically, if, you know, depending on the questions you ask, Putin, you you know you could be arrested or

Starting point is 00:45:28 not and I said listen to what you're saying you're saying the US government has like control over my questions and they'll arrest me if I ask the wrong question like how are we better than Putin if that's true and by the way that's just the lawyer's set but I I can't overstate one of the biggest law firms in the United States smart smart lawyers we've used for years. So I was I was really shocked by it. You said leaders kill leaders lie. Yeah, I don't believe in leaders very much like this whole like Osalenskis Jesus and Putin Satan.

Starting point is 00:45:56 It's like no, they're all leaders of countries. Okay. Like grow up a little bit you child. Do you have you ever met a leader? Like all of the, first of all, anyone who seeks power is damaged morally in my opinion. You shouldn't be seeking power. You can't seek power or wealth for its own sake and remain a decent person. That's just true. So there aren't any like really virtuous billionaires and there aren't any really virtuous world leaders. You have really virtuous billionaires and there aren't any really virtuous world leaders. You have grades of virtue, some are better than others for sure.

Starting point is 00:46:28 But I mean, in other words, Zelensky may be better than Putin. I'm open to that possibility. But to claim that one is evil and the other is virtuous, it's like you're revealing that you're a child. You don't know anything about how the world actually is or what reality is. Like it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it know anything about how the world actually is or what reality is like it's That's quite a realist perspective, but there's a spectrum. There's a spectrum. Absolutely. I'm not saying they're all the same They're not and our task is to figure out where in the spectrum. They they lie in the leaders Task is to confuse us and convince us. They're one of the good guys

Starting point is 00:47:05 But I actually reject even that formulation. I don't think it's always about the leaders. I mean, of course, the leaders make the difference. A good leader has a healthy country and a bad leader has a decaying country, which is something to think about. But it's about the ideas and the policies and the practical effect of things. So we're very much caught up in the personalities of various leaders, not just our political leaders, but our business leaders, our cultural leaders. Are they good people? Do they have the right thoughts? It's like,

Starting point is 00:47:34 no, I ask much more basic question. What are the fruits of their behavior? And I always make it personal because I think everything is personal. Does his wife respect him? Do his children respect him? How are they doing? Is the country he runs thriving, or is it falling apart? If your life expectancy is going down, if your suicide rate is going up, if your standard of living is tanking, you're not a good leader. I don't care what you tell me.

Starting point is 00:47:58 I don't care what you claim you represent. I don't care about the ideas or the systems that you say you embody. It's it's it's dogs barking to me How's your life expectancy? How's your suicide rate? What's drug use like are people having children? Are people's children more likely to live in a freer more prosperous society than you did and their grandparents did like those Are the only measures that matter to me the rest is a lie lie. But anyway, the point is, we just get so obsessed with like, the theater around people or people. And we miss the bigger things that are happening and we allow ourselves to be deceived into thinking that what doesn't matter at all matters, that moral victories are all that matters, no, actually facts in the ground victories

Starting point is 00:48:47 matter more than anything. I mean, you certainly see it in this country, Black Lives Matter, for example. How many black people did that help? It hurt a lot of black people, but in the end, we should be able to measure it. You know, like what, how many black people have died by gunfire in the four years since George Floyd died?

Starting point is 00:49:03 Well, the numbers gone way, way up, and that was a Black Lives Matter operation to fund the police. So I think we can say as a factual matter, a data-based matter, Black Lives Matter didn't help Black people. And if it did tell me how, well, these are important moral victories. I'm over that. That's just another lie, you know, a long litany of lies. So I try to see the rest of the world that way and but more than anything, I try to see world events through the lens of an American because I am one. And what does this mean for us? And it's not even the war, it's the sanctions that will forever change the United States, our standard of living the way our government operates, that more than any single thing in my lifetime, screwed the United States. Leving those sanctions in the way that we did was crazy.

Starting point is 00:49:52 And that was that for me, the main takeaway from my eight days in Moscow was not Putin. And he's a leader with whatever they're none of them are that different, actually, in my pretty extensive experience. No, it was Moscow. That blew my mind. I was not prepared for that at all. And I thought I knew a lot about Moscow. My dad worked there on and off in the 80s and 90s,

Starting point is 00:50:13 because he was a US government employee and he was always coming back Moscow. It's a nightmare and all this stuff, no electricity. I got there almost exactly two years after sanctions, totally cut off from Western financial systems, kicked out of Swift, can't use US dollars, no banking, no credit cards. And that city, it just factually, I'm not endorsing the system, not endorsing the whole country. I didn't go to Lake Bacall. You know, I didn't go to Turkmenistan. I just went to Moscow, largest city in Europe, 13 million people, I drove all around it. And that city is way nicer outwardly anyway.

Starting point is 00:50:48 I don't live there than any city we have by a lot. And by nicer, let me be specific. No graffiti, no homeless, no people using drugs in the street, totally tidy, no garbage on the ground and no forest of steel and concrete soul destroying buildings, none of the postmodern architecture that oppresses us without even our knowledge, none of that crap. It's a truly beautiful city and that's not an endorsement of Putin. And by the way, it didn't make me love Putin. It made me hate my own leaders because I grew up in a country that had cities kind of like that, that were nice cities, that were safe, and we don't have that anymore.

Starting point is 00:51:29 And how did that happen? Did Putin do that? I don't think Putin did that actually. I think the people in charge of that, the mayors, the governors, the president, they did that and they should be held accountable for it. So I think cleanliness and architectural design is not the entirety of the metrics that matter when you measure a city. They're the main metrics that matter. They're the main metrics that matter. The main metrics that matter are cleanliness, safety, and beauty, in my opinion. And one of the big lies that we are told

Starting point is 00:51:57 in our world is that no, something you can't measure that has no actual effect on your life matters most. Bullshit. What matters most to say it again, beauty, safety, cleanliness. Lots of other things matter too, a whole bunch of things matter. But if I were to put them in order, it's not some, like, theoretical, well actually, I don't know if you know that the Duma has no power. Okay, I get that. Freedom of speech matters enormously to me. They have less freedom of speech in Russia than we do in the United States. We are superior to them in that way.

Starting point is 00:52:34 But you can't tell me that living in a city where you know your six-year-old daughter can walk to the bus stop and ride on a clean bus or ride in a beautiful subway car that's on time and not get assaulted. That doesn't matter. No, that matters almost more than anything, actually. And we can have both. And like the normal regime defenders and morons, John Stuart or whatever he's calling himself, they're like, well, that's the price of freedom. Like people shitting on the sidewalk is the price of freedom. It's like, you can't fool me because I've lived here for 54 years I know that it's not the price of freedom because I lived in a country that was both free and clean and orderly So that's not a trade-off. I think I have to make

Starting point is 00:53:15 You can't that is the beauty of being a little bit older because you're like no, I remember that actually it wasn't what you're saying We didn't have racial segregation in 1985 It was a really nice country that kind of respected itself. I was here and I think with younger people you can tell them that and they're like well 1985 you were you know selling slaves in Madison Square Garden. It's like no you weren't You're going to Madison Square Garden and not stepping over a single fentanyl addict. It is true There doesn't have to be a trade-off between cleanliness and freedom of speech It is true there doesn't have to be a trade-off between cleanliness and freedom of speech But it is also true that in dictatorships

Starting point is 00:53:56 Cleanliness is an architectural design is easier to achieve and perfect and often is done so so you can show off Look how great our cities are while you're suppressing worse of course I agree with that vehemently This is not a defense of the Russian system at all. And if I felt that way, I would not only move there, but I would announce I was moving there. I'm not ashamed of my views. I never have been. And for all the people who are trying

Starting point is 00:54:15 to impute secret motives to my words, I'm like the one person in America you don't need to do that with. If you think I'm a racist, ask me and I'll tell you. Are you a racist? Of course. No. I am a sexist though. Oh, great. Anyway, no, but if I was like a defender of Vladimir Putin, I would just say I'm defending Vladimir Putin now. I'm not. I am attacking our leaders and I'm grieving over the low expectations of our people. You don't need to put up with this. You

Starting point is 00:54:45 don't need to put up with foreign invaders stealing from you, you know, occupying your kid's school. Your kids can't get an education because people from foreign countries broke our laws and showed up here and they've taken over the school. That's not a feature of freedom, actually. That's the opposite. That's what enslavement looks like. And so I'm just saying, raise your expectations a little bit. You can have a clean, functional, safe country. Crime is totally optional. Crime is something our leaders decide to have or not have. It's not something that just appears organically. I wrote a book about crime 30 years ago. I thought a lot about this. You have as much crime as you put up with, period. And it doesn't make you less free to not tolerate murder.

Starting point is 00:55:29 In fact, it makes you unfree to have a lot of murders. And so I just, but it makes me sad that people are like, well, you know, I guess this is, I can't like live in New York city anymore because of inflation and filth and illegal aliens and people shooting each other. But you know, I'm just, I'm glad because this is vibrant and strong and free.

Starting point is 00:55:52 It's like, that's not freedom actually at all. Your point is well taken. You can have both, but do you regret? We had both. That's the point. We had, but I saw it. Do you regret to a degree using the Moscow subway and the grocery store as a mechanism by which to make that point? No. I mean, I thought I, I mean, look, I'm one of the more unself-aware people you will ever interview.

Starting point is 00:56:20 So to ask me, you know, how will this be perceived? I literally have no idea and kind of limited interest. But I was so shocked by it. I was so shocked by it. And there were two, and to the extent I regret anything and am to blame for anything, it would be not, and I've done this a lot, not giving it context, not fully explaining why are we doing this. The grocery store, I was shocked by the prices and yes, I'm familiar with exchange rates, but very familiar with exchange rates. But those don't, and I adjusted them for exchange rates and this is two years in to sanctions, total isolation from the West. So I would expect, in fact, I did expect until I got there, that the supply chains

Starting point is 00:57:06 would be crushed. How do you get good stuff if you don't have access to Western markets? And I didn't fully get the answer because I was occupied doing other things when I was there, but somehow they have. And that's the point. And they haven't had the supply chains problems that I predicted. In other words, sanctions haven't made the country noticeably worse. Okay. So again, this is commentary on the United States and our policymakers. Why are we doing this? It's forcing the rest of the world into a block

Starting point is 00:57:35 against us called BRICS. They're getting off the US dollar. That will mean a lot of dollars are going to come back here and destroy our economy and impoverish this country. So the consequences, the stakes are really high. They're huge. And we're not even hurting Russia. So like, what the hell are we doing? One, on the subway, that subway was built by Joseph Stalin right before the Second World War. I'm not endorsing Stalin. Obviously, Stalinism is the thing that I hate. And I don't want to come to my country. I'm making the obvious point that for over 80 years you've had these frescoes and chandeliers, maybe they've been redone or whatever, but like somehow the society has been able to not destroy

Starting point is 00:58:15 what its ancestors built, the things that are worth having and there are a lot. And that, like why don't we have that? And even on a much more terrestrial plane, like why don't we have that and even on a much more terrestrial plane? Like why can't I have a subway station like that? Why can't my children who live in New York City ride the subway? A lot of people I know who live in New York City Are afraid to ride the subway young women especially that's freedom. No again. It's slavery And how can if Putin can do this? Why can't we? Like what it's not in other words? I mean, this is like so obvious I'm a traitor. Okay. So if I'm calling for

Starting point is 00:58:52 American citizens to demand more from their government and higher standards for their own society and remember that just 30 years ago We had a much different and much happier and cleaner and healthier society Where everyone wasn't fat with diabetes at 40 from poisoned food. Like, how is that? I'm not a trader to my country, I'm a defender of my country. By the way, the people calling me a trader,

Starting point is 00:59:13 they're all like, you know, whatever, they're not. I would not say they're people who put America's interest first. But they're put it mildly. There's many elements, like you said, you don't like Stalinism. You know, you're a student of history. Central planning is good at building subways in a way that's really nice.

Starting point is 00:59:34 The thing that accounts for New York subways, by the way, there's a lot of really positive things about New York subways, not cleanliness, but the efficiency, like the accessibility, how wide it spreads. The New York network is incredible. But Moscow, for different metrics, results of a capital assistance, and you actually said that you don't think US is quite a capital assistance, which is an interesting question itself. We have more central planning here than they do in Russia. No, that's not true. Of course it is. You think that's true. We have more central planning here than they do in Russia. No, that's not true. Of course it is. You think that's true.

Starting point is 01:00:06 The climate agenda, of course. They're telling the U.S. government has in league with a couple of big companies decided to change the way we produce and consume energy. There's no popular outcry for that. There's never been any mass movement of Americans who's like, I hate my gasoline-powered engine. No more diesel. That has been central planning that is central planning and you see it up and down our economy There's no free market in the United States you get crossways with the government. You're done If you're at scale, I mean, maybe if you got a barber shop or a liquor store or something

Starting point is 01:00:36 But even then you're regulated by politicians and so no we I actually am for free markets I hate monopolies. Our economy is dominated by monopolies, completely dominated in Google. What percentage of search does Google have? 90. Google's a monopoly by any definition, and Google is just rich enough to continue doing whatever it wants in violation of US law. So there's no monopoly in Russia as big as Google.

Starting point is 01:01:04 I'm not, again, defending the Russian system. I'm calling for a return to our old system, which was sensible and moderate and put the needs of Americans at least somewhere in the top 10. I mean, somewhere in the top 10. I'm not saying that standard oil was like interested in the welfare of average Americans,

Starting point is 01:01:22 but I am saying that there was a constituency in our political system in the Congress, for example, different presidential candidates were like, no, wait a second, what is this doing to people? Is it good for people or not? There's not even a conversation about that. It's like, shut up and submit to AI and no offense. And so I'm just-

Starting point is 01:01:38 Offense taken. I'm just- I'll, I'll write, we will get you. Yeah. When it's strong enough. You'll be the first one to go Well, there's a white man. I just won't even exist anymore So so much to say on that one. I bet when you Google my picture 20 years from now would be a black chick 100% Well, I hope she's attractive. I hope so too. It'd probably be an upgrade

Starting point is 01:02:02 So well the the central planning point is really interesting, but I just don't, I don't know where you're coming from. Because the capitalist system, I mean, the United States is one of the most successful capitalist systems in the history of Earth. So just say- What's the most successful? I'm just saying that I think it's changed a lot in the last 15 years and that we need to update our assumptions about what we're seeing. And that's true up and down. That's true with

Starting point is 01:02:29 everything. It's true with your neighbor's children who you haven't seen in three years and they come home from Wesleyan and you're like, oh, you've grown. That is true for the world around us as well. And most of our assumptions about immigration, about our economy, about our tax system are completely outdated if you compare them to the current reality. And so I'm just for updating my files and I have a big advantage over you because I am middle-aged and so I don't- You've called yourself old so many times throughout the summer. I don't trust my perceptions of things so I'm constantly trying to be like, is that

Starting point is 01:02:58 true? Yeah. I should go there. You know, I should see it. And I guess just in the end, I trust direct perceptions. Like I don't trust the internet actually. Wikipedia is a joke. Wikipedia could not be more dishonest. It's certainly in the political categories

Starting point is 01:03:19 or things that I know a lot about. Occasionally I read an entry written about something that I saw or know that people involved. And I'm like, well, that's a complete liar. You left out the most important fact. And it's like, it's not a reliable guide to reality or history. And that will accelerate with AI where history or perception of the past is completely controlled

Starting point is 01:03:37 and distorted. So I think just getting out there and seeing stuff and seeing that Moscow was not what I thought it would be, which was a smoldering ruin, you know, rats in a garbage dump. It was nicer than New York. What the hell? Direct data is good, but it's challenging. For example, if you talk to a lot of people in Moscow or in Russia and you ask them, is

Starting point is 01:03:59 there censorship, they will usually say yes, there is. Oh yeah, of course there is. I agree. I mean, just to be clear, I'm not. I have no plans to move to Russia. I think I would probably be arrested if I moved to Russia. Ed Snowden, who is the most famous sort of openness, transparency advocate in the world, I would say, along with Assange

Starting point is 01:04:21 doesn't want to live in Russia. He's had problems with the Putin government. He's attacked Putin. They don't like it. I mean, I get it. I get it. I'm just saying, what are the lessons for us? And the main lesson is we are being lied to,

Starting point is 01:04:38 like in a way that's bewildering and very upsetting. I was mad about it all eight days I was there because I feel like I'm better informed than most people because it's my job to be informed and I'm skeptical of everything. And yet I was completely hoodwinked by it. I would just recommend to everyone watching this, like you think you know, like if you're really interested, if you're one of those people and I'm not one, but it was like waking up every day and you've got a Ukrainian flag on your mailbox or whatever, your Ukrainian lapel pen or absurd theater. But if you like sincerely care about Ukraine or Russia or whatever, why don't you hop on

Starting point is 01:05:11 a plane for 800 bucks and go see it? Okay, no, that doesn't occur to anyone to do that. And I know it's time consuming and kind of expensive sort of not really. But you benefit so much. I mean, I could bore you for like eight hours and I know you've had this experience where you think you know what something is or you think you know who someone is and then you have direct experience of that place or person and you realize all your preconceptions

Starting point is 01:05:36 were totally wrong. They were controlled by somebody else. Like you know, in fact, I won't betray confidence but off the air we were talking about somebody and you said I couldn't believe the person was not at all like what I thought. Well, that's happened to me in the positive direction. In the positive direction. By the way, for me, it's almost always in that direction.

Starting point is 01:05:52 Most people I meet, and I've had the great privilege of meeting a lot of people over all this time, they're way better than you think. Are they're more complicated or whatever? But the point is a direct experience unmediated by liars, there's no substitute for that. Well, at that point, direct experience in Ukraine. So I visited Ukraine and witnessed a lot of the same things you witnessed in Moscow.

Starting point is 01:06:17 So first of all, beautiful architecture. Yes. And this is a country that's really in war. So it's not- Oh, for real? Like for real where most of the men are either volunteering or fighting in the war and there's actual tanks in the streets that are going into your major city of Kia. And still the supply chains are working. Yes. A handful of months

Starting point is 01:06:38 after the start of the war, everything is working. The restaurants are amazing. The most of the people are able to do some kind of job. Like the life goes on. Cleanness, like you mentioned. I love that. Security, like it's incredible. Like there's the crime went to zero. They gave all guns to everybody. The Texas strategy.

Starting point is 01:07:03 It does work. Yeah, when you witness it, you realize, okay, there's something to these people. There's something to this country that they're not as corrupt as you might hear. Right, you hear that, Russia is corrupt, Ukraine is corrupt, you assume it's just all gonna go to shit. Well, so that's been, and I haven't been to Ukraine

Starting point is 01:07:18 and I've certainly tried and they put me on some kill them immediately list so I can't have tried to interview Zelensky. He keeps denouncing me. I just want an interview with him. He won't. Unfortunately, I would love to do it. I hope you do. I hope I do too. But one of the things that bothers me most, I love to hear that what you just said about Kyiv. But I'm not really surprised. One of the things that I'm most ashamed of is the bigotry that I felt towards Slavic people,

Starting point is 01:07:44 also toward Muslims, I'll just be totally honest, because I lived through decades of propaganda from NBC News and CNN where I worked, you know, about this or that group of people and they're horrible or whatever. And then you whine, and I kind of believed it. And I see it now, like, we can't even put the word Russia at Wimbledon

Starting point is 01:08:01 because it's so offensive. Well, what does the tennis player have to do with it? Did he invade Ukraine? I don't think he did. You know, stealing all these business guys yachts and denouncing was oligarchs. Like, what do they have to do with it? You know, whatever. Here's my point.

Starting point is 01:08:14 The idea that like a whole group of people is just evil because of their blood. I just don't believe that. I think it's immoral to think that. And I can just tell you my own experience after eight days there. I think it's a really interesting culture, Slavic culture, which is shared by the way by Russia and Ukraine, of course, they're their first cousins at the most distant. And I found them really smart and interesting and informed. I didn't understand a lot of what they were saying and understand the way their minds

Starting point is 01:08:44 work because I'm American. But it wasn't a thin culture, it's a thick culture. You know, and I admire that. And I wish I could go to Ukraine. I would go tomorrow. So I think after you did the interview with Putin, you put a clip, I think on TCN, where like your sort of analysis afterwards. Yeah, wasn't much of an analysis. No, but what stood out to me is you were kind of talking shit about Putin a little bit. Like you were criticizing him.

Starting point is 01:09:10 Why wouldn't I? It spoke to the thing that you mentioned, which is you weren't afraid. Now the question I want to ask is, it would be pretty bad to ask if you went to the supermarket and made the point you were making, but also criticize Putin, right? Criticize that there is a lack of freedom of speech and freedom of the press and in the supermarket? Yes.

Starting point is 01:09:31 Oh, you mean if I also said that? Well, yeah, I mean, I, of course, I think that I'm not. So I guess part of it is that I'm a little, because I have such a low opinion of the commentary in the United States and the news organizations, which really do just work for the US government. I mean, I really see them as I did Isvestia and Pravda in the 80s. Like they're just organs of the government and I think they're contemptible.

Starting point is 01:09:58 And I think the people who work there are contemptible. And I say that as someone who knows them really well personally, I think they're disgusting. That I'm a little bit cut off kind of from what people are saying about me because I'm not interested. But so I try not to be defensive like see, I'm not a tool of Putin. But the idea that I'd be flacking for Putin when, you know, my relatives fought in the Revolutionary War, like I'm as American as you could be. It's like crazy to me. And Applebaum calls me a traitor to my okay. It's just like so dumb. I but no, of course, they don't have no country has freedom of speech

Starting point is 01:10:32 other than us. Canada doesn't have it. Great Britain definitely doesn't have it. France, Netherlands, these are countries I spent a lot of time in. And Russia certainly doesn't have it. So that's why I don't live there. I'm just saying our sanctions don't work That's all I was saying and we don't have to live like animals. We can live with dignity Even the Russians can do it. That's kind of what I was saying Even the Russians under Vladimir freakin Putin can live like this and no it's not a feature of dictatorship That's the most I think discouraging and most dishonest line by people like John Stuart, who really are trying

Starting point is 01:11:09 to prepare the population for accepting a lot less. He is really a tool of the regime in a sinister way, always has been. Like, how dare you expect that? What are you, a Stalinist? It's like, no, I'm an American. I'm like a decent person. I just want to be able to walk to the grocery store without being murdered Is that too much to ask shut up? Then you don't believe in freedom. It's really dark if you think about it, you know So there is a fundamental way which you wanted

Starting point is 01:11:37 Americans to expect more you don't have to live like this. We don't have to live like this You don't have to accept it you don't and everyone's afraid in this country they're gonna be shut down by the tech oligarchs or have the FBI show up at their houses or go to jail and people are legit afraid of that in the United States and my feeling is So like show a little courage like what is it worth to you? For your grandchildren to live in a free prosperous country? It should be worth more than your comfort. That's how I feel. We should make clear that, you know, by many measures,

Starting point is 01:12:10 you look at the world press freedom index, you're right. US is not at the top, Norway is. US scores 71, same as Gambia, West Africa. So let me just ask. Hold on, hold on, hold on, second, hold on, second. Now you're making me laugh. Ukraine is 61 and Russia is 35.

Starting point is 01:12:33 The lower it is, the worse. Close to China at 23 in North Korea at the very bottom, 22. I think you didn't, you didn't. Ukraine put Gonzalo Lyra in jail till he died for criticizing the government. How can they have a high press? Yes, that's why they're 61 out of 0'm saying look, I don't know what the criteria are they're using

Starting point is 01:12:48 to arrive at that. But I know press freedom when I see it, I try to practice it, which is saying what you think is true, correcting yourself when you've been shown to be wrong, as I have many times. Being as honest as you can be all the time and not being afraid. And those are the holy absent in my country. Holy absent. People are afraid in the news business, I would know since I spent my life working there. And they're afraid to tell the truth. They're under enormous amount of pressure and a lot of them have little kids in mortgages. I've been there.

Starting point is 01:13:18 So I have sympathy, but they go along with things like you would, you are not allowed if you stand up at any cable channel, any cable channel in the United States and say wait a second How did the Ukrainian government throw a US citizen into prison until he died for criticizing? The Ukrainian government and we're paying for that. That's what that's what's offensive to me. We're paying for it That happens all the time around the world Of course, but this is a US citizen and we're paying the pensions of Ukrainian bureaucrats. Like we are the Ukrainian government at this point. And like, if you said that on TV, on any channel, well, you know, you'd lose your job for that. So like, that's not I don't care, Norway is at the top really Norway.

Starting point is 01:14:01 If I went on Norwegian television and said NATO blew up Nord Stream, which it did. NATO blew up Nord Stream. The United States government with the help of other governments blew up, committed the largest act of industrial terrorism in history and by the way the largest environmental crime, the largest emission of CO2, methane. Could I keep my job now? So how is that a freak price? Well, we don't know that. I mean, the whole point in Norway? Yes. Well, as a Scandinavian, I can tell, the whole point of the same thing. In Norway? Yes. Well, as a Scandinavian, I can tell you, they would not put up in Norway for a second. It's been a while.

Starting point is 01:14:29 We're deviating from the majority, no. Well, but deviating maybe is frowned upon, but. Frowned upon, yeah. But do you have the freedom to say it if you do deviate? That's the question. Can you keep your job? That's one measurement of it. Yeah, it's not the only measurement. Obviously, being thrown into prison is much worse than

Starting point is 01:14:47 losing a job. I've been fired a number of times for saying what I think, by the way. And it's fine. I've enjoyed it. I don't mind being fired. I've always become a better person after it happened. But it is one measurement of freedom. If you have the theoretical right to do something but no practical ability to do it, do you have the right to do it? And the answer is not really, actually. You mentioned John Stuart. The two of you have a bit of a history. I don't know if you've seen it, but he kind of grilled your supermarket and subway videos. Hey, you got any chance to see it? I haven't seen it. But someone characterized it to me, which is why I pivoted against it earlier in our conversation about how the price of freedom is living in filth and chaos.

Starting point is 01:15:30 Yeah, that was essentially it. So in 2004, that's 20 years ago, John Stewart appeared on Crossfire, a show he hosted. And that was kind of a memorable moment. Can you tell the saga of that as you remember it? I mean, for me, you know, as I was saying to you before about how it takes a long time to digest and process and understand what happens to you, or at least it does for me, I didn't understand that as a particularly significant moment while it was happening.

Starting point is 01:15:58 I just got off a plane from Hawaii. I mean, I was out of it as usual. And I was very literal as usual. And so from my perspective, his criticism of me to the extent I remember it was that I was a partisan. Well, he had two criticism. One that Crossfire was stupid, which it certainly was. In fact, I'd already given my notice and I was moving on to another company by that point. Crossfire was stupid. Crossfire didn't help. Crossfire framed everything as Republican versus Democrat. Whatever. It was not helpful to the public discourse. I couldn't agree more and that's why I left. So that was part of his critique fair. I'm not sure I would have admitted it at the time because I worked there and it's sort of hard to admit you're engaged in an enterprise that's like fundamentally worthless, which it was.

Starting point is 01:16:47 But but his other point was that I was somehow a partisan or a mindless partisan, which is definitely not true. I mean, it is true of him. He is a mindless partisan, but I am not. And I haven't been for I really haven't been since I got back from Baghdad at the beginning of the Iraq war. And I realized that the Republican Party, which I voted for, you know, my whole life to that point and had supported in general, was like pushing this really horrible thing that was going to hurt the United States,

Starting point is 01:17:17 which in time it really did, the Iraq war really hurt the United States. And I realized that I had been on the wrong side of that. I said so publicly immediately from Baghdad, I said that to the New York Times, and I really meant it, I mean it now. And so to call me partisan, you could call me stupid. You could call me wrong, I certainly had been wrong, but partisan, I just didn't think it was a meaningful, I mean, that's just not true.

Starting point is 01:17:40 It's the opposite of true. So I didn't really take it seriously at all. And I never thought much of him. So I was like, whatever, some buffoon jumping around on my show grandstanding. But I do think it was record. And by the way, that happened right at the moment that YouTube began. I think that was one of the first big YouTube video. It was one of the first big YouTube videos.

Starting point is 01:18:02 So it had a virality that, if that's a word, it went everywhere in a way that didn't used to happen in cable news. I mean, by that point, I had, that was 20 years ago, as you point out, I've been in cable news for nine years. So in the before 2004, we would say something on television and then it would kind of, it would be lost. Like people could claim they heard it, but you'd have to go to the, I think the University of Tennessee at Knoxville archives to get it. Suddenly, everything we said would live forever on the internet. Which is good, by the way. That's not bad, but it was a big change for me and I just couldn't believe how widely that was discussed at the time because I thought he was not a

Starting point is 01:18:44 an interesting person. I think he's obviously a very unhappy person. I just didn't take him seriously then and I don't now. But so anyway, that was it. It was a smaller thing in my life at the time than other people imagine. Okay, you said a lot of words that will make it sound like you're a bit bitter, even if you're not.

Starting point is 01:19:05 So you said unhappy person, partisan person. Well, he's definitely partisan for sure. Can you elaborate why you think he's partisan? Well, so I think that, and I see this a lot not only on the left, but people who believe that whatever political debate they're engaged in is the most important debate in the world. And so they bring an emotional intensity to those debates and they're inevitably disappointed because no, no eternal question is solved politically. So they're kind of on the wrong path, right? And they're doomed to frustration. If they believe that, and many do, he certainly does, that whatever the issue is, so, you know, Clarence Thomas stopping Supreme Court justice and the implication is, well, if someone else is a Supreme Court justice, we'll live in a

Starting point is 01:19:47 fair and happy society. But that's just not, it's a false promise. So I think that people who bring that level of intensity to politics are by definition bitter, by definition, disappointed, bitter in the way the disappointing people are. And that the real questions are like, what happens when you die? And how do the people around you feel about you? You know, those are those are not the only questions are like, what happens when you die? And how do the people around you feel about you? You know, those are not the only questions in life, but they're showing the most important ones. And if we're spending a disproportionate amount of time on who gets elected to some office,

Starting point is 01:20:14 not that it's irrelevant, it is relevant. But it's not the eternal question. And so I feel like he's not the only kind of bitter, silly person in Washington or in its orbit. There are many and a lot of them are Republicans. So but I just thought it was ironic. I mean, everything's ironic to me. But like being called a Russia sympathizer by a guy who calls himself Boris, like, it just made me laugh. No one else has ever laughed at that. Boris Johnson's real name is not Boris, as you know. He calls himself Boris. It's his middle name And so like if you call yourself Boris, you don't really have standing to attack anyone else as a Russia defender, right?

Starting point is 01:20:50 That's my I think that's funny. No one else as I know it does but But John Stuart like you know if he There are a lot of things you could say about me, but he's much more partisan than I am. So to call me a partisan, it's like, what? He would probably say that he's not a partisan, that he's a comedian who's looking for the humor and the absurdity of the system. That's a done both sides. He's a dead seer, he's a very serious person in this,

Starting point is 01:21:18 I will say this, and he shares this quality with a lot of comedians, I know a lot of comedians. I know a cross section of people just having done this job for a long time. And a lot of them are very serious, like about their views. And they have a lot of emotional intensity. And he certainly is in that category. He's not, that's, that's like the silliest thing. Yeah, he's a comedian for sure. He can be very funny for sure. He has talent, no doubt about it. I've never denied that. But he is a, he's motivated by doubt about, I've never denied that. But he is a he's motivated by

Starting point is 01:21:49 by his moral views. You know, this is right, that is wrong. And and I just think that it's a misapplied passion. But do you think I'm just a comedian is I don't think any serious person thinks that I mean, if you're just a comedian, and and I look, I'm not trying to claim I couldn't claim that I haven't said a lot of dumb things. And one of the dumbest things I ever said was when he was on our set lecturing me, you know, he's a moralizer, which I also don't really care for as an aesthetic matter. But he, um, he was lecturing me about something. And I said, I thought you're here to tell jokes, which I shouldn't have said, because he wasn're here to tell jokes, which I shouldn't have said

Starting point is 01:22:26 because he wasn't there to tell jokes. He was there to lecture me and I should have just engaged it directly rather than trying to diminish him by like, you're just a little comedian. Well, he doesn't see himself that way. But I would just say this, John Stewart's a defender of power. Like John Stewart has never criticized, like, what's John Stewart's view on, you know, the aid we've sent to Ukraine, the hundred billion dollars or whatever, like, what happened to that money? What happened to the weapons that I bought? He doesn't care. He has the exact same priorities as the people permanently in charge in Washington.

Starting point is 01:22:57 So whatever, he doesn't, he's not alone in that. So does Mika Brzezinski and her husband and all the rest of the cast of dummies. But if you're going to pretend to be the guy who's giving the finger to so does Mika Brzezinski and her husband and all the rest of the cast of dummies, but If you're gonna pretend to be the guy who's giving the finger to entrenched power you should do it once in a while and He never has there's not one time when he said something it would be deeply unpopular on Morning Joe That's all I'm saying and so don't call yourself a truth teller. You're you're a court comedian or a Flatterer of power. Okay, that's fine. There's a role for that, but don't pretend to be something else. I'll just be honest that I

Starting point is 01:23:31 watched it just recently that video. From 20 years ago? From 20 years ago. I watched it initially and I remember very differently. I remembered that John Stuart completely destroyed you in that conversation and I watched it and you asked a very good question of him, which was, and there was no destruction, first of all, and you asked a very good question of him. Why, when you got a chance to interview John Kerry, did you ask a bunch of softball questions? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:24:02 I thought that was a really fair question. And then his defense was, well, I'm just the comedian. So I thought that was disingenuous. And I haven't watched it. I never have watched a clip one time in my life. And I don't like to watch myself on television. I never have. So that, and that's my fault.

Starting point is 01:24:20 And I probably should force myself to watch it though. Of course I never will. But I think the takeaway for me, which was really interesting and life changing was, I agree with your assessment. I'm not just, I've lost a lot of debates. I've been humiliated on television. I'm not above that. It certainly happened to me.

Starting point is 01:24:36 It will happen again. But I didn't feel like it was a clear win for him at all. You know, maybe a TKO, but it was not a knockout at all. And yet it was recorded that way. I remember thinking, well, that's kind of weird. That's not what I remember. And then I realized, no, John Stuart was more popular than I was. Therefore, he was recorded as the winner. And that was hard for me to accept because that struck me as unfair. You should rate any contest on points. Like, here are the rules. We're going to judge the contest and the basis of those rules. And no, in the end, it's just like the more popular guy wins,

Starting point is 01:25:07 every TV critic like John Stuart, everyone of them hated me, therefore he won. And I was like, wow, that, I guess I have to accept that reality. And you do, like the reality of the sunrise, you just have, you know, you're not in charge of it. So that's just what it is. Unfortunately, it's a bit darker, I think.

Starting point is 01:25:21 The reason he's seen as the winner and the reason at the time I saw as the quote unquote winners because he was basically shitting on you like personal attacks versus engaging ideas. And it was funny in a dark way and like making fun of the bow tie and all this kind of stuff. So like, I understand.

Starting point is 01:25:37 And it was fair to call me a dick. I remember he called me a dick. And I remember even when he said that I was like, yeah, I'm definitely a dick. And that's not my best quality, trust me. But also to to be kind of I thought John Stuart came off as a giant dick at that time And I'm a big fan of his and I think he has Improved a lot. So that makes it true. We should also say that like people grow People like I certainly have or change anyway. You hope it's growth. You hope it's not shrinkage, but

Starting point is 01:26:06 But it is so outside. Yeah, I mean look I I Haven't followed John Stewart's Career at all. I don't have a television like I'm pretty cut off from all that stuff but so I wouldn't really know but The measure to me is are you taking positions that are unpopular with the most powerful people in the world? And how often are you doing it? It's super simple, not for its own sake. But do you feel free enough to say, you know, to the consensus, I disagree.

Starting point is 01:26:40 And if you don't, then you're just another toady. That's my view. Well, I think he probably feels free enough to do it, but you're saying he doesn't do it. On the big things, look, the big things, this is my estimation of it, others may disagree. The big things are the economy and war, okay? The big things government does can be, I mean, a lot of things government does, government does everything at this point, but where we kill people and how and for what purpose and how we organize the economic engine that keeps the country afloat, those are the two big questions. And I hear almost no debate about either one of them in the media. And I have dissenting views on both of them. I'm mad about the tax code, which I think is unfair. I don't think we should be,

Starting point is 01:27:25 the fact we have a carried interest loophole in the tax code and people are claiming that their income is investment income and they're paying half the tax rate as someone who just goes to work every day. It discourages work. It encourages lending at interest, which I think is gross, personally, I'm against it, sorry. And the fact that we're creating chaos around the world, like, is the saddest thing that's happening right now. And nobody feels free to say that. So that's not good. How do you hope the war on Ukraine ends with a settlement, with a reasonable settlement? And you know what a reasonable settlement is, which is a settlement, you know, where both sides feel like they're giving a little but can live with it.

Starting point is 01:28:06 And I, I mean, I was really struck in my conversation with Putin by how he basically refused to criticize Joe Biden and to criticize NATO. And it is, I will just be honest, as an American, it would be a little weird to be like pissing on Joe Biden with a foreign leader, any foreign leader, even though I don't think Joe Biden is a real person or really president. And the whole thing is ridiculous. But still, he is the American president technically. And I don't want to beat up on the American president with a foreigner. Just don't. Maybe I'm old fashioned. So that's how I feel.

Starting point is 01:28:38 So I didn't push it, but I thought it was really interesting. And because, of course, Putin knows my views on Joe Biden. He knew I applied to the CIA, so they've done some digging on me. But he didn't mention it, and he didn't attack NATO. And the reason is, I know for a fact, because he wants a settlement. And he wants a settlement not because Russia's about to collapse despite the lying of our media, that's just not true. And no one is even saying it anymore because it's so dumb.

Starting point is 01:29:04 He wants you because it's just bad to have a war and it changes the world in ways You can't predict people die Everything about it is sad and if you can avoid it you should so I would like to see a Settlement where look the thing that Russia Wants and I think probably has a right to is not to have NATO missiles on this border Like I don't know why we would do that I don't know what we get out of it um

Starting point is 01:29:28 I just don't even understand it. I don't want to say the purpose of NATO. I don't think NATO was good for the United States I think it's an attack on our sovereignty I would pull out of NATO immediately if I were the u.s president because I don't think it helps the u.s I know a lot of people are getting their bread buttered by NATO um But I anyway, that's my view as an american as if if i'm a russian or ukrainian I know a lot of people are getting their bread buttered by NATO But I anyway, that's my view as an American as if I'm a Russian or Ukrainian let's just let's just be sovereign countries now We're not run by the US State Department. We're just our own countries like that's I believe in sovereignty Okay, so that's my view and I also want to say one thing about Zelensky I attacked him before because I was so offended by

Starting point is 01:30:09 about Zelensky, I attacked him before because I was so offended by his cavalier talk about nuclear exchange because he would kill my family. So I'm really offended by that. Anyone who talks that way, I'm offended by. But I do feel for Zelensky. I do. He didn't run for president to have this happen. I think Zelensky's been completely misused by the State Department, by Toria Nuland, he's been completely misused by the State Department, by Toria Nuland, by our Secretary of State, by the policymakers in the US who've used Ukraine as a vessel for their ambitions, their geopolitical ambitions, but also the many American businesses who've used Ukraine as a way to fleece the American taxpayer. And then by just independent ghouls like Boris Johnson are hoping to get rich from interviews on it. Like the whole thing, Zelensky is at the center of this. He's not driving history NATO and the United States is driving history Putin is driving history. There's this guy Zelensky, so

Starting point is 01:30:55 You know, I I do feel for him and I think he's in a perilous place. Do you think? Zelensky's a hero for saying Kiev because I do to me you can criticize a lot of things You should call out things that are Obviously positive. I just tried to second ago. I don't I don't know The extent that he isn't give he seems to be in the United States an awful lot like way too much You can do a satellite interview. You don't have to speak to my Congress. You're not an American. Please leave Yeah, that's my opinion, but um... You got many zingers, Tucker. No, no, no, it's just heartfelt, it's bubbling up from the wellspring that never turns off. But I would say this about Zelensky, yeah, to the

Starting point is 01:31:36 extent he's in Ukraine, good man. You know, George W. Bush fled Washington on 9-11. I lived there with three kids and he ran away to some Air Force base in South Dakota And I thought that was cowardly and I said so at the time And I'm man was I attacked for saying that and I wrote a column about it in New York magazine right then had a column hard to believe and But I felt that I felt that like that's I think the prerequisites of leadership are really basic The first is caring about the people you lead. That's number one You know a deep in the way a father cares for his children or an officer cares for his troops. A president should care for his people and that leads inexorably to the next

Starting point is 01:32:10 requirement, which is bravery, physical courage. And I believe in that and I'm not like some tough guy, but I just think it's obvious if you're in charge, you know, I'm at my house and I feel like someone broke in. I'm not going to say to my wife, hey baby, go deal with it, home invasion. I'm going to deal with it because I hey baby, go deal with the home invasion. I'm gonna deal with it, because I'm dad, okay? So if you're the president of a country and your capital city is attacked, as ours was at the Pentagon, and you run away,

Starting point is 01:32:34 well the Secret Service told me to, bitch, are you in charge? Like, who's daddy here, the Secret Service? Do you know what I mean? I found that totally contemptible. And I said so. And man, did I get a lecture not just from Republicans, but from Democrats. Oh, you don't know. Put yourself in that position. I was like, okay, I don't know what I would do under that kind of stress. Enormous stress, I get it. I know one thing I wouldn't do is run away because you can't do that.

Starting point is 01:33:02 And if you're not willing to die for your country, then you shouldn't be leading it. So yes, to the extent if, if Zelensky really is in Ukraine most of the time, amen. Well, hold on a second, let's clarify. It's not about whether he's in Ukraine most of the time or not. I thought that was the whole premise of the, no, no, no, no. At the beginning of the war, when the tank, when Kia, when a lot of people thought that the second biggest military in the world is pointing its guns at Kiev is gonna be taken and a man a leader who stays in that city says fuck it when everybody around him says flee says everybody around him believes the city will be taken or at least

Starting point is 01:33:42 destroyed you know leveled artillery bombs, all of this. He chooses to stay. You know a lot of leaders. How many leaders would choose to stay? Well, the leader of Afghanistan, the US backed leader, when the Taliban came, got in a US plane with US dollars and ran away. And of course, is living on those dollars now. So, yeah, there's a lot of cowardly behavior.

Starting point is 01:34:04 Good for him. I mean, I guess I'm looking at it slightly differently, which is what's the what's the option you're the leader of the country you can't leave like Stalin never left Moscow during the war. It was surrounded by the Germans as you know, for a year, and he didn't leave. And when I was in Russia, like you're Stalin never left. It's like, he's the leader of the country. You can't I mean, like that's just table stakes, of course I Would say but you raise an interesting by implication question, which is You know, what about Kiev like you think the Russians couldn't level Kiev? Of course, obviously they could why haven't they they could but they haven't Well, there's there's military answers to that, which is urban warfare is extremely

Starting point is 01:34:46 difficult. Do you think that Putin wants to take Kiev? No, I do think he expected Zelensky to flee and somebody else to come into power. Yeah, that may be totally, I don't, I don't know. I don't think, I have no idea what Putin was thinking when he did that about Zelensky. I didn't ask him. But it's a mistake to imagine this is a contest between Putin and Zelensky. This is Putin versus the US State Department. I mean, Zelensky, that's why I said I felt sorry for him. I mean, as I said, we're literally paying the pensions of Ukrainian bureaucrats.

Starting point is 01:35:23 So there is no Ukrainian government independent of the US government. And, you know, maybe you're for that, maybe you're against it, but you can't endorse that in the same sentence that you use the term democracy because that's not a democracy, right? Obviously. Well, that's why it's interesting that he didn't really bring up NATO extensively. He wants a settlement. He wants a settlement. He doesn't want to fight with them rhetorically. he wants a settlement and he doesn't want to fight with them rhetorically. And he just wants to get this done. And he made a bunch of offers at the peace deal. And, you know, we wouldn't even know this happened if the Israelis hadn't told us. And I'm so grateful that they did, that Johnson was dispatched by the State Department to stop it. And it's like, I mean, I think Boris Johnson

Starting point is 01:36:04 is a husk of a man. But imagine if you were Boris Johnson and you spend your whole life with a Ukraine flag pan, I'm for Ukraine. And then all those kids died because of what you did. And the lines haven't really moved. It hasn't been a victory for Ukraine. It's not gonna be a victory for Ukraine.

Starting point is 01:36:19 It's like, how do you feel about yourself if you did that? I mean, I've done a lot of shitty things in my life. I feel bad about them, but I've never extended a war for no reason. Like that's a pretty grave sin in my opinion, you know? Yes, that was a failure, but it doesn't mean you can't have a success over and over and over,

Starting point is 01:36:38 keep having negotiations between leaders. Well, the US government is not allowing negotiations. and so that for me is the most upsetting part It's like in the end What Russia does I'm not implicated in that what Ukraine does. I'm not implicated in that. I'm not Russian or Ukrainian I'm an American who grew up really believing in my country. I'm supporting my country through my tax dollars and It's like I really care about what the US government does because they're doing it in my name. And I care a lot because I'm American. And we're the impediment to peace, which is another way of saying, we're responsible for all these innocent people getting dragooned out of public parks in Kiev and sent to go die.

Starting point is 01:37:17 Like what? That is not good. I'm ashamed of it. What do you think of Putin saying that justification for continuing the war is denazification? I thought it was one of the dumbest things I'd ever heard. I didn't understand what it meant Denazification it literally means what it sounds like, you know, I yeah, I mean I have a lot of thoughts on this I don't I hate that whole conversation because it's not real. It's just ad hominem It's a way of associating someone with an evil regime that doesn't exist anymore. But in point of fact, Nazism, whatever it was, is inseparable from the German nation. It was a nationalist movement in Germany. There were no other Nazis, right? There's no book of Nazism. I want to be a Nazi. What does it mean to be a Nazi? There's no

Starting point is 01:38:01 mind conf. There's no mind conf.'s no mine comf is not DOS capital Right. My conf is like to the extent I understand it. It's like he's pissed about the trade ever site. Whatever. I'm very anti Nazi I'm merely saying there isn't a Nazi movement in 2024. It's a way of calling people evil Okay, Putin doesn't like Nationalist Ukrainians Putin hates nationalism in general, which is interesting. But of course he does. He's got 80, whatever, republics, and he's afraid of nationalist movements. He fought a war in Chechnya over this. So I understand it, but I have a different profile.

Starting point is 01:38:36 I'm for national and for American nationalism. So like I disagree with Putin on that. But calling him Nazis, it's like, I thought it was childish. Well, I do believe that he believes it So that's so interesting. I agree with that I was because I was listening to this because in the United States everyone's always calling everyone else a Nazi. You're a Nazi Okay But I was listening to this and I was like this is the dumbest

Starting point is 01:38:59 sort of Not convincing line you could take and I sat there and listen to him talk about Nazis for like eight minutes and I'm like, I think he believes this. Yeah, and I actually, you know, having had a bunch of conversations with people who are living in Russia, they also believe it. Now there's technicalities here,

Starting point is 01:39:17 which the word Nazi, the World War II is deeply in the blood of a lot of Russians and Ukrainians. I get it, I get it. So you're using it as almost a political term. The way it's used in the United States also, like racism and all this kind of stuff. Because you know you can really touch people if you use the Nazi movement. I think that's totally right. But it's also, to me, a really, like, disgusting thing to do.

Starting point is 01:39:40 I agree. Because, and also to clarify, there is neo-Nazi movements in Ukraine, which is just very small. You're saying that there's this distinction between Nazi and neo-Nazi? Sure, but it's a small percentage of the population, a tiny percentage, they have no power in government. As far as I have seen no data to show they have any influence on Zelensky and Zelensky government at all. So really when Putin says denozification, I think he means nationalist movements. I think you're right.

Starting point is 01:40:14 And I agree with everything you said. And I do think that the war, the Second World War occupies a place in Slavic society, Polish society, you know, Central Eastern Europe, that it does not occupy the United States. And you can just look at the death totals, you know, tens of millions versus less than half a million. So it's like this eliminated a lot of the male population of these countries. So of course, it's still resonant in those countries, I get it. I just, I think I've watched, I don't think I know, I've watched the misuse of words, the weaponization of words for political reasons for so long that I just, I just don't like, and though I do engage in it sometime, I'm sorry, I don't like just

Starting point is 01:41:00 dismissing people in a word. Oh, he's a Nazi, He's a liberal or whatever. It's like, tell me what you mean. What don't you like about what they're doing or saying? And, and Nazi especially, I don't even know what the hell you're talking about. What troubled me about that is because he said that that's the primary objective currently for the war. And that because it's not grounded in reality, it makes it difficult to then negotiate peace. Because like, what, what does it mean to get rid of the Nazis in Ukraine? So like, he'll come to the table and say, well, okay, I will agree to do ceasefire. Once the Nazis are gone. Okay.

Starting point is 01:41:38 So can you list the Nazis? Plus, can you negotiate with the Nazi? Right. Exactly. No, I totally agree with you. It was very strange, but maybe it was perhaps had to do with speaking to his own population and also probably trying to avoid the use of the word NATO as a justification for the word. Yes, that's all. Of course, I don't know, but I suspect you're right on both counts. But I would

Starting point is 01:42:03 say it points to something that I've thought more and more since I did that interview, which was like two weeks ago, I guess. I didn't think he was like as a PR guy, not very good. Like, not good at telling his own story. You know, the story of the current war in Ukraine is the eastward expansion of NATO and scaring the shit out of the Russians with NATO expansion, which is totally unnecessary, doesn't help the United States. NATO itself doesn't help the United States. And so I'm not pro-Russian for saying that, I'm pro-American for saying that. And I think that's a really compelling story because it's true. He did not tell that story. He told some other story that I didn't fully understand. Again, I'm not Russian. He's speaking to

Starting point is 01:42:42 multiple audiences around the world. I'm not sure what he hoped to achieve by that interview. I will never know. But I did think that, like, this guy is not good at telling his story. And I also think, honestly, on the basis of a lot, I mean, I know this, very isolated during COVID, very. We keep hearing that he's dying of this or that disease. He's got ALS. I mean, I don't know. I'm not his doctor. There's a ton of lying about it. I know that. But one thing that's not a lie is that he was cloistered away during COVID. I know this. And only dealing with two or three people. And that makes you weird. It's so important to deal with a lot of people to have your views challenged. And you see this with leaders who stay in power too long. He's so important to deal with a lot of people to have your views challenged.

Starting point is 01:43:25 And you see this with leaders who stay in power too long. It's been in power 24 years effectively. You've done it, you know, there's been upsides, I think for Russia, the Russian economy, Russian life expectancy, but there are definitely downsides. And one of them is you get weird and you get autocratic. You know, like this is why we have term limits. Very few kings don't get crazy in old age. Yeah, and you said some of this also in your post-Kremlin discussion while you're in Moscow still, which was very impressive to me

Starting point is 01:43:59 that you can just openly criticize. This is great. Well, I don't care. I understand this. I just wish you did some more of that also with the supermarket video and perhaps some more of that with Putin in front of you. But I-

Starting point is 01:44:12 Putin in front of me and I understand. I'm such a good person. I know you see it as virtue signaling. Yeah, it is. Have you seen some of the interview he did with some NBC News? Yes, I understand. So I think you're just so annoyed by how bad journalists are that you just didn't want to be them.

Starting point is 01:44:30 Yeah, that's probably right, actually. Some great conversations will involve some challenging... Like, you were confused about denazification. Well, first of all, I accept your criticism and I accept it as true that in some way I'm probably pivoting against what I dislike. And I have such contempt for American journalists on the basis of so much knowledge that I probably was like, I don't want to be like that. Fair.

Starting point is 01:44:57 That is a kind of defensiveness and dumb. So you're right. As for the Nazi thing, I was like, I really felt like we were just speaking so far past each other that we would never like come to I was like, I don't even know what the hell you're talking about and that And especially when I decided or concluded that he really meant it. I was like, that's just too freaking weird to me It's it's almost like Yeah, I can think of many other examples. we're interviewing someone else say something that's like, I was interviewing a guy one time and he started talking about the black Israelites

Starting point is 01:45:34 and were the real Jews. And I was like, you know, and it wasn't on camera, but I was like, I don't that was so it was so far out to me that I was like, we'll never kind of understand Common terms on that So you mentioned there's a bunch of conspiracy theories about uh, Putin's health. How was he in person? Like, what did he feel like? Did he look healthy? You know, I'm not a health person myself So, I mean I can easily gain 30 pounds and not know it. So like I'm probably not a great person to ask, but no, he seemed fine. He seemed he had his arm hooked through a chair. And I heard people say, we've got Parkinson's and

Starting point is 01:46:14 Parkinson's can be controlled, I know, for periods with drugs. So it's it's hard to assess. I'm just not one of the tells of Parkinson's is gate, you know, how a person walks, I think. And his walking seemed fine. I walked around with him and talked to him off camera. His, he's had some work done for sure. I mean, 71 or two.

Starting point is 01:46:35 You mean like, oh, visual purposes? Yeah, I'm 54. He's like almost 20 years old with me. He looked younger than me. What was that like, the conversation off camera? Like you walking around with him. What was the content of the conversation? I mean, I can't, you know, I feel bad even with Putin

Starting point is 01:46:50 or anybody like talking about stuff that is off the record. But I'll just say that when I said that he didn't want to fight with NATO or with the US State Department or with Joe Biden because he wants a settlement. That's a very informed perspective. He doesn't say whatever you want about that, believe it or not, but that is true. So he's open for peace. For peace and appreciation?

Starting point is 01:47:26 Look, Russia tried to join NATO in 2000. That's a fact, okay? They tried to join NATO. So, just think about this. NATO exists to keep Russia contained. It exists as a bulwark against Russian territorial expansion. And whether or not Russia has any territorial ambitions is another question. Like, why would it? It's the largest landmass in the world. Whatever. But that's why it exists. So if Russia seeks to join NATO, it is by definition a sign

Starting point is 01:47:59 that NATO's job is done here. We can declare victory and go home. The fact that they turned him down is like so shocking to me, but it's true. Then he approaches the next president, George W. Bush, that was with Bill Clinton at the end of his term in 2000. He approaches the next president and said, let's in our next missile deal, let's align on this, and we'll designate Iran as our common enemy. And we'll designate Iran as our common enemy. Iran, which is now, you know, effectively league with Russia, thanks to our insane policies. But and, and George W. Bush, to his credit, it's like, well, that seems like kind of an innovative, good idea. And Condi Rice, who's like one of the stupidest people ever to hold power in the United States,

Starting point is 01:48:40 if I can say, who's like a monomaniacally anti Russia versus because she had an advisor at Stanford who was or something during the Cold War. No, we can't do that and Bush is just weak. And so he agreed. It's like, what? That is crazy. If you're fighting with someone and the person says, you know what, actually, our interests align and you've spent 80% of your mental disk space on hating me and opposing me or whatever, but actually we can be on the same team If you don't at least See that as progress like what why would you if your interest is in? Helping your country. What would be the? What's the counter argument? I don't even understand it and no one has even addressed any of this The war of Russian aggression. Yeah, it was a war of Russian aggression for sure.

Starting point is 01:49:26 But how did, how did we get there? We got there because Joe Biden and Tony Blinken dispatched Kamala Harris, who does not freelance this stuff, okay, fair to say, to the Munich Security Conference two years ago this month, February 2022, and press conference to Zalinsky poor Zalinsky We want you to join NATO. This was not in a back room things was in public any press conference knowing because he said it like 4,000 times we don't want nuclear weapons from the United States or NATO on our Western border duh and days later, he invaded. So like, what is that? And

Starting point is 01:50:11 if you even I raised that question, and my previous job, and I was denounced as an of course a traitor or something. But okay, great, I'm a traitor. What's the answer? What's the answer? These are not into you know, Tor Nulun, who I know, not dumb, hasn't helped the U.S. in any way, an architect of the Iraq war, architect of this disaster, one of the people who destroyed the U.S. dollar. Okay, fine. But she's not stupid. So like, you're trying to get a war by acting that way. What's the other explanation? By the way, NATO didn't want Ukraine because it didn't meet the criteria. So for admission, so why would you say that?

Starting point is 01:50:49 Because you want a war. That's why. And that war has enriched a lot of people to the tune of billions. So I don't care if I sound like some kind of left-wing conspiracy nut because I'm not either left-wing nor a conspiracy nut. Tell me how I'm wrong. Who do you think is behind it? If you were to analyze, like zoom out, looking at the entirety of human history, the military industrial complex, you said Kamala Harris, is it individuals?

Starting point is 01:51:17 Is it like this collective flock that people are just pro war as a collective? It's the hive mind. It's an, and I, you know, spent my whole life in DC from 85 to 2020, so 35 years. And again, I grew up around it in that world. And I do think that conspiracies, of course there are conspiracies, but in general, the hive mind is responsible

Starting point is 01:51:42 for the worst decisions. It's a bunch of people with the same views, totally views that have not been updated in decades. Putin said something that I thought was absolutely true. I don't know how he would know this, but it is true because I lived among them. So the Soviet Union dissolves in August of 1991 on my honeymoon in Bermuda. I'll never forget it. And it was a big thing, you know,

Starting point is 01:52:05 if you lived in DC, I mean, the receptionist in my office in 1991 was getting a master's in Russian from Georgetown, who's going to be a Sovietatologist. And he was among, you know, thousands of people in Washington on that same track. And so the Soviet Union collapses, well, so does the rationale for like, you know, a good portion of the US government has been dedicated for over 40 years to opposing this thing that no longer exists. So there's a lot of forward momentum. There's a huge amount of money, the bulk of the money in the richest country in the world, aimed in this direction.

Starting point is 01:52:37 It's very hard for people to readjust, to reassess. And you see this in life all the time. I love my wife, all of a sudden she ran off with my best friend. Holy shit, I didn't expect that this morning, now it's a reality, like how do I deal with that? Well, I got stage four cancer diagnosis, okay? And it's all bad, but I'm just saying, like that's the nature of life,

Starting point is 01:53:00 things that you did not anticipate, never thought you'd have to face happen out of nowhere, and you have to adjust your expectations and your goals. And people have a hard time with that, very hard time with that. So that's a lot of it. You know, people, if you're Condi Rice, sort of like highly ambitious midwit who gets this degree from Stanford and you read Tolstoy in the original, sure you did. And, and you spent Tolstoy in the original show you did and And you spent your whole life like thinking that Russia is the center of evil in the world It's kind of hard to be like well actually there's a new threat and it's coming from farther east it's primarily an economic threat and

Starting point is 01:53:40 Maybe all the threats aren't reduced to tank battles. That's the other thing is these people are so inelastic in their thinking, so lacking imagination and flexibility that they can't sort of imagine like a new framework. And the new framework is not that you're going to go to war with China over Formosa, Taiwan. No, the framework is that all of a sudden all the infrastructure in Tijuana is going to be built by China And like that's a different kind of threat, but they can't Kind of get there because they're not that impressive. So you actually mentioned this. It's not just the Cold War. It's World War two that populates most of

Starting point is 01:54:20 their thinking in Washington you mentioned Churchill Chamberlain and Hitler and they kind of seeing the World War II as the kind of the good war and the successful role the United States played in that war, they're kind of seeing that dynamic, that geopolitical dynamic and applying it everywhere else still.

Starting point is 01:54:45 Yeah, it's a template for everything and I think it's of huge significance to the development of the West, to the civilization we live in now, to world history, it was a world war. And so I think it's worth knowing a lot about and being honest about and all the rest, but it's hardly the sum total of human history. It's a snapshot and and so you keep hearing people refer to not even the war, no one ever talks about the war. Like what how much does Tony Blinken know about the Battle of Stalingrad? Probably zero. It doesn't know anything, largest battle in human history, but I mean he knows nothing. But he knows a lot about the cliches surrounding the 38 to 40 period,

Starting point is 01:55:29 1938 to 1940. And everything is kind of expressed through that, that, that formula. And not everything is that formula. That's all I'm saying. And the Republicans have a strange weakness for it, particularly the closeted ones, the weird ones who were like, have no life other than like starting more wars. Everything to them, the most vulnerable, I would say, among them, emotionally, psychologically vulnerable, the dumbest, they will always say the same thing.

Starting point is 01:56:02 And it appeals to Republican voters, unfortunately, that every problem is the result of weakness. Everyone's Chamberlain. Like Germany never would have gone in to Poland, Czechoslovakia, if England had been stronger. That's the argument. Is that true? I don't know, actually.

Starting point is 01:56:17 Maybe it might be totally true. It might not be true at all. I really don't know. But not everything is that. That's not always true. If I go up to you in a bar and I say, I hate your necktie, I'm being pretty aggressive with you, pretty strong.

Starting point is 01:56:31 You might beat the shit out of me actually, or shoot me if I do that. Like an aggressive posture doesn't always get you the outcome that you want. Sometimes it requires a more sophisticated Mediterranean posture. I mean, it kind of depends. It's a time and place thing.

Starting point is 01:56:44 And they don't acknowledge that. It's like everything is this same template. And I just, that's not the road to good decision making at all. Since we're on the time period, let me ask you kind of almost cliche question, but it applies to you, which you've interviewed a lot of world leaders. If you had the chance to interview Hitler in 39, 40, 41, first of all, would you do it

Starting point is 01:57:10 and how would you do it? I assume you would do it given who you are. Man, it would be a massive cost for doing it. It may destroy my life to interview Putin, though I can tell you as much as I want that I'm not a Putin defender. I only care about the United States. That's 100% true. Anyone who knows me will tell you it's true.

Starting point is 01:57:26 I keep saying it. But history may record me to the extent it records me at all as a tool of Putin, a hater of America, you know, that seems absurd to me, but absurd things happen. What would I ask Hitler? I don't even know. I guess that I would probably ask him what I asked Putin, which is what I ask everybody like, what's your motive?

Starting point is 01:57:49 Why did you do? I mean if he'd already gone into Poland like why are you doing that? You know, what's your goal? And then you know the question is Is he gonna answer honestly? I don't know. You know, it's you can't you can't make someone answer a question honestly. You can only sort of shut up while they talk and then let people decide what they think of the answer. Well, just like in the bar fight, there's different ways. You could, they're different ways. That's exactly right. That's exactly, man, is that true? That is absolutely right. I mean, your energy with Putin, for example, was such that it felt like

Starting point is 01:58:24 he could trust you. I felt like he could trust you. I felt like he could tell you a lot. I think I just wanted to get it on the record. Yes. That's all I wanted. You know, I think it was extremely like, we have to acknowledge how important that interview was for the record and for opening the door for conversation. Like opening the door to conversation literally is the path to like

Starting point is 01:58:45 more conversations and peace, peace talks. Well, I would flip it around and say anyone who seeks to shut that down by focusing on a supermarket video or four minutes versus a two hour and 15 minute long interview with a world leader, anyone who doesn't want more conversation, who wants fewer facts, fewer perspectives is totalitarian. Probably doesn't have good intent. I mean, I can honestly say for all my many manifold faults, I've never tried to like make people shut up. You know, I just, it's not in me.

Starting point is 01:59:17 I don't believe in that. So Putin's folks have shown interest for quite a while to speaking with me. So you've spoken with him. What advice would you give? Oh, do it immediately. How's your Russian, by the way? Have you kept up with it? Yeah, fluent.

Starting point is 01:59:38 So he would most likely be in Russian. So that's the other thing is, I do have a question my language bear. Oh, did you feel with annoying? It's horrible. Yeah, it's horrible. I mean, I don't have much of a technique as an interviewer. Other than listen really carefully. That's that's my only skill. I don't have the best questions. I certainly don't have the best questions. All I do that I'm proud of and I think works is I just listen super carefully. I never let a word go by that I'm not paying attention. It exhausts me actually, but you can't do that in a foreign language because there's a delay here. I'm just whining, but it's real.

Starting point is 02:00:16 It's not, it's not, not whining. Like, can you actually describe the technical details of that? Are you hearing concurrentlyly at the same time? Yes, but there's a massive lag. So what's happening is, so the translator, so we were of course extremely uptight about the logistical details. So we brought our own cameraman who I've been around the world with,

Starting point is 02:00:38 who worked at Fox, came with me now, amazing. And he did, I mean, it was it was our cameras lighting everything like we had full control of that and we had control of the tape. The Russians also had their own cameras and I don't know what they did with it. But we had full control of that and we brought our own translator. We got our own translator because I just don't trust anyone. Right. So so I think we had a good translator. We had two of them, actually. And but the pro because they get exhausted. But the problem is, from my perspective, as someone who's like trying to think of a follow up and listen to the answer, Putin will talk and you can

Starting point is 02:01:14 in part of your ear here, you know, the Slavic sounds. And then then over that is a guy with a Slavic accent speaking English. And then you can your Putin stop talking. And then, then over that is a guy with a Slavic accent speaking English. And then you can hear Putin stop talking. And then this guy's answer goes on for another 15, 20 seconds. So it's super disconcerting and it's really hard. And the other thing is it doesn't matter how good your translators are. I'm interested in language. I speak only English fluently.

Starting point is 02:01:41 And but I'm really interested in language and I know and I work in language. It doesn't matter how good your translator is. In literature and in conversation, you miss so much if the language is moving for you. I mean, you see this in Bible study, you see it in Dostoevsky, you see it everywhere. If you don't speak, you know, Aramaic, Hebrew, Russian, you're not really getting. I mean, even in romance languages, like I, you know, I like Balzac, okay? I like who's obviously written French. You read Paragoryo, it's an amazing novel, hilarious. And it's like, you're not really getting it. And it's not that, you know, French and English are not that far apart. like you're not really getting it. And it's not that, you know, French and English are not that far apart.

Starting point is 02:02:27 Russian? Like what? Plus conversation. So the chemistry of conversation, the humor, the wit, the play with words, all this. Exactly. And my understanding of Russian as a lover of Russian literature and English is that it's it's not a simple language at all. The grammar is complex. There's a lot that's expressed that will be lost in the translation. So yes, I mean, the fact that you speak native Russian, I mean, I would run that walk to that interview because I think it would just be amazing. You would get so much more out of it than I did.

Starting point is 02:02:58 And we should say that you've met a lot of world leaders. Both Zelensky and Putin are intelligent, witty, even funny. Yes. So like there's a depth to the person that can be explored through a conversation just on that element, the linguistic element. For sure. And Putin speaks decent English. I spoke to him in English, so I know that.

Starting point is 02:03:19 But he's not comfortable with it at all. But Zelensky is, I think. No. He is, well, he's better than Putin at English, but he's still the humor, the, like the intelligence, all of that is not quite there in English. He says simple points, but the guy's a comedian and he's a comedian primarily in Russian, the Russian language. So the Ukrainian language is now used mostly primarily as a kind of symbol of independence.

Starting point is 02:03:46 I'm aware of that. It's a political decision. No, I know. He is really his native language is Russian language. Of course, as a lot of people in Ukraine. You can also understand his position that he might not want to be speaking Russian publicly. That's something of... I don't think they're allowed to speak in Russia in some places in Ukraine, right? That's one of the reasons that Russia was so mad is that they were attacking language and That's a fair complaint like what?

Starting point is 02:04:11 And by the way, if you haven't been to Moscow in a while, you should see it And you will pick up a million things that were invisible to me and you should assess it for yourself And my strong advice would be even if you don't interview Putin Go over there, spend a week there and assess what you think. I mean, how restricted does the society feel? I mean, it would take a lot of balls to do this because you will, I mean, whatever you decide, you will be sucked into conversations that have nothing to do with you, political conversations. You're obviously not a political activist, right? You're an interviewer, but I think it would be so

Starting point is 02:04:45 interesting. But for interview itself, is there advice you have about how to carry an interview? It is fundamentally different when you do it in the native language, but yes, I mean, I think, you know, I approached the, and maybe I did it incorrectly, but this was the product of a lot of thought. I was coming into that interview aware that he hadn't given an interview at all with anybody since the war started. So I had a million different questions and as noted, I didn't ask them because I just wanted to focus on the war. But I mean, there's so many, I'll send you my notes that I wrote. I was like a diligent little girl with. That would be amazing. But I think, all these questions, and some of them I thought were pretty funny.

Starting point is 02:05:30 In your case, I think the very fact of the interview was the most important. Yeah, that's probably right. I did have, the question that I really wanted to ask that I was almost gonna ask, because it made me laugh out loud. I was sitting, having drinking coffee before, with my producers and I was like, I'm go there my first questions gonna be a mr. President

Starting point is 02:05:48 I've been here in the Kremlin for two days preparing And I haven't seen a single African-American in a position of power in the Kremlin. Sure Culturally specific and dry and he'd be like freaking crazy. crazy. Yeah, you don't want to open with the crazy. No, I know. With humor. I know. That's probably doesn't translate. He doesn't.

Starting point is 02:06:11 Oh yeah, the Inno B.S. small delay where you have to wait for the joke. Look what? To see if it lands or not. This is not America. At Fox, you were for a time the most popular host. After Fox, you've garnered a huge amount of attention as well. Same, probably more.

Starting point is 02:06:29 Do you worry that popularity and just that attention gets to your head? Is it kind of drug that clouds your thinking? You think? I live in a spiritual graveyard of people killed by the quest for fame, yes. I have lived in it. I mean, I would say the two advantages I have. One, I have a happy family and a stable family

Starting point is 02:06:53 and a stable group of friends, which is just the greatest blessing and a strong love of nature and that my family shares. So, you know, I'm in nature every day and I have a whole series of rituals designed to keep me from becoming the asshole that I could easily become. But no, of course, I mean, that's what I just, you know, that's why I don't want to beat up on I'm grateful to Elon who, you know, gave me a platform and I mean that sincerely. But I who gave me a platform and I mean that sincerely, but I definitely don't spend a lot of time on social media or on the internet for that exact reason. Well, first of all, I think it's, as I've said, a much more controlled environment than we acknowledge and I don't want lies in my head.

Starting point is 02:07:39 But I also don't want to become the sort of person who's seeking the adulation of strangers. I think that's soul poison. And I said earlier that I think that the desire for power and money will kill you. And I believe that and I've seen it a lot. But I also think the desire for the love of people you don't know is every bit as poisonous, maybe more so. And so, yes. And it's not just because I've, you know, obviously spent most of my life in public. And in fact, I don't spend my life in public, I'm completely private person, but, um, but professionally, I've spent my life in public. It's not just that it's like social media makes everybody into a cable news host. We're talking off the air, my new I just I'm obsessed with this. I don't know enough about it, but here's what I do know.

Starting point is 02:08:27 South Korea, amazing country, great people. I grew up around Koreans, probably no group. If I can generalize about a group that I like more than Koreans are just smart, funny, honest, brave. There's I really like Koreans. I always have my whole life growing up in something California with Koreans. South Korea is like dying, it's literally dying. It's way below replacement rate and fertility. It's suicide rate is astronomical. Why is that? It's a rich country. Of course, I don't know the answer. But I suspect it has something to do with the penetration of technology

Starting point is 02:09:03 into South Korean society is the high, I think one of the highest, certainly one of the highest in the world. People live online there. And there was a belief in for a bunch of reasons in South Korea that Western technology would be a liberating progressive force. And I think it's been the opposite. It's my sense, strong sense. And I think it's true in this country too. I don't understand how people can ignore the decline in life expectancy or the rise in fentanyl use It's not just about China shipping precursor chemicals to Mexico. It's like why would you take that shit? I hope those two things aren't coupled technological advancement and the erosion. Let me ask you and I know you're a technologist And there's a line I respect it and there's a lot about technology that I like and have benefited from. I had back surgery and it worked.

Starting point is 02:09:45 Okay. So I'm not against all technology, but can you name a technology, a big technology in the last 20 years that we can say conclusively has improved people's lives? Well, conclusive is a tough thing. Pretty conclusively. I think that we can brag about. I think, well, you've criticized Google search recently, but I think making the world knowledge accessible

Starting point is 02:10:10 to anyone, anywhere across the world through Google search. Well, I love that. I love that idea. Are people better informed, or are they more superstitious and misled than they were 20 years ago? I think- It's not close. No, I don't know.

Starting point is 02:10:24 I think they are more informed. It's just revealing the ignorance. The internet has revealed the ignorance that people have, but I think the ignorance has been decreasing gradually. If you look, even you can criticize places like Wikipedia a lot, and very many aspects of Wikipedia are very biased, but when you, most of it are actually topics that don't have any bias in them because they're not political or so on. There's no battle over those topics. Right. And most of Wikipedia is like the fastest way to learn about a thing.

Starting point is 02:10:54 I couldn't agree more. You can very quickly imagine you're an expert and that may be the problem. I think, no, it's, I just experienced it in Moscow. It's like, again, I feel like I'm in the top 1% for information, certainly intake, because it's my job. And I had literal, and plus, and I'm always out of the country. I've been around the world many times. Like I feel like I know a lot about the rest of the world, or I thought I did.

Starting point is 02:11:18 And how did I not know any of that? And maybe I'm just like unusually ignorant or something or reading the wrong things. I don't know what it was, but all I know is the digital information sources that I use to understand just something as simple as what's the city of Moscow like, were completely inadequate. And anyway, look, I just am worried that we're missing the obvious signs and the obvious signs are reproduction, life expectancy, sobriety. If you have a society where people just can't deal with being sober, don't want to have children and are dying younger, you have an extremely sick you have a suicidal society, okay? And I'm not even blaming anyone for I'm just saying objectively

Starting point is 02:12:12 that is true. And the measure of a health of your society is the number of children that you have, and how well they do. It's super simple. That's the next generation we all die. super simple. That's the next generation. We all die. And what replaces us. And if you, if you don't care, then you're suicidal. And maybe other things too. But that's all I'm saying. So what happened to South Korea? Like, why can't anyone answer the question? They're great people. They're rich. They have all these advantages. They're on the cutting edge of every American, for a foreign country, they're more American than maybe any other country Other than Canada and like what happened? And I mean if the fundamental war is the same kind of thing might be happening or will happen in the United States

Starting point is 02:12:56 Well, let me just ask you this. I think North Korea seems like the most dystopian horrible place in the world, right? Obviously, it's a byword for dystopia, right? North Korean. I use it all the time. And I mean it. If in 100 years, there are more North Koreans still alive than there are South Koreans, what does that tell us? Yeah, that's something to worry about. But also- But like, how did it happen? Like, why? I'm interested in the why. There's a question I asked Putin. You know, sometimes we don't know why, but why does no one ask why? I've seen a lot of increased distrust in science, which is deserved in many places. It just worries me because some of the greatest inventions of humanity come from science and technological innovation.

Starting point is 02:13:41 Okay, then let me ask you a couple quick questions and perhaps you have the answer. And I've always assumed that was true and I should say that when I was a kid, I lived in the Ohio, California next to the Salk Institute named after Jonah Salk, a resident of the Ohio, California who created the polio vaccine and saved untold millions. And so my belief, which is still my belief actually, that's a great thing. It's one of the great additions to human flourishing ever. But if technology is so great, why is life expectancy going down and why are fewer people having kids and why would anybody who was Internet access ever use fentanyl?

Starting point is 02:14:18 What is that? What is going on? And until we can answer that question, I think we have to can assume the question of whether technology is a net good or net bad is unresolved, like at best, right? At best, perhaps. But technology is the very tool which will allow us to have that kind of discourse to figure out, to do science better. I mean, I want that to be true. And when you said that the internet allows people to escape the darkness of ignorance,

Starting point is 02:14:45 man, that resonated with me because I felt that way in 1993, four, when it was first starting and I first got on it. And I thought, man, this is amazing. You can talk for free to anyone around the world. This is going to be great. But let me ask you this. This is something I've never gotten over or gotten a straight answer to. Why is it that in any European city, the greatest buildings, indisputably, were built before electricity and the machine age? Why has no one ever built a medieval cathedral in the modern era ever? Well, what is that? Indisputably, you have a presumption, we have a good definition of what beauty is. There's

Starting point is 02:15:22 a lot of people- Right, let's be specific. Pick a European city or any city in the world and tell me that there's a prettier building than say Notre Dame before it was set fire to. There's other sources of prettiness and beauty. It's purely an architecture. Of course. Of course. Trees are prettier than any building in my opinion. Right. So I agree with that. But also there could be, I grew up in the pre-internet age.

Starting point is 02:15:45 Good. But if you grew up in the internet age, I think your eyes would be more open to beauty that's digital, that is in a digital way. I'm not discounting the possibility of digital beauty at all. And you know, the Ted Kaczynski in me wants to, but that's too close-minded. I agree. I'm completely willing to believe there is such a thing as digital beauty. I mean, I have digital pictures of my phone, of my dogs and kids.

Starting point is 02:16:10 So I know that there is. But purely in the realm of architecture, because it's like limited and, and it is, you know, one of the pure expressions of human creativity. We need places to live and work and worship and eat. And so we build buildings and every civilization has. But the machine age, the industrial age, seem to have decreased the quality and the beauty in our, in that one expression of human creativity, architecture. And why is that? Well, I could also argue that, you know that I'm a big sucker for bridges and modern bridges can give older

Starting point is 02:16:47 bridges that run for their money. But I like bridges too. So I agree with you sort of, but like the Brooklyn Bridge, I don't know that there's any modern bridges that was built in late 19th century, very much in the industrial age, but I'm just saying like the great cathedrals of Europe. Yeah. Even the pyramids whoever built them, uh, it doesn't it seems like if you it's just like super obvious. I'm just like I'm dealing on the autism level here. Yeah. Why is that? But that's a good way to start. If all of a sudden you have electricity and hydraulics That's a good way to start. If all of a sudden you have electricity and hydraulics and you have access, I mean, I have machines

Starting point is 02:17:27 in my wood shop at home that are so much more advanced than anything than any cathedral builder in 15th century Europe had. And yet there's neither I nor anyone I know could even begin to understand how a flying buttress was built, right? And so what is that? And the other question is also consider

Starting point is 02:17:48 that whatever is creating this technology is unstoppable. Well, there's that. And the question is like, how do you steer it then? You have to look in a realist way at the world and say that if you don't, somebody else will and you want to do it in a safe way. I mean, this is the Manhattan Project. Was the Manhattan Project a good idea to create nuclear weapons? That's an easy call.

Starting point is 02:18:11 No. For me, it's an easy call in retrospect. In retrospect, yes. Because it seems like it stopped World Wars. So the mutually shared destruction seems to have ended wars, ended major military. Well, it's been what, 80 years? Not even 80 years, 79. And so we haven't had a world war in 79 years. But one nuclear exchange would, of course, kill more people than all wars in human history combined. So you're saying 79 makes it sound like you're counting. I'm counting because I think it obviously it's like completely demonic and everyone pretends like it's great. Nuclear weapons are evil. Yeah, the use of them is evil. The technology itself

Starting point is 02:18:56 is evil. And in my opinion, it's like, if you can't, that's just so obvious. And that's what I'm saying is like, I'm not against all technology. I took a shower this morning. It was powered by an electric pump. Yeah. Heated by a water heater. Like I loved it. I sat in an electric sauna.

Starting point is 02:19:14 You know, like I'm not. Against all technology, obviously. But the mindless worship of technology. Sure. Mindless worship of anything is pretty bad. But I'm just saying, so you said let's approach this from a realist perspective. Okay, let's. If we think that there is a reasonable or even a potential chance, it could happen.

Starting point is 02:19:35 Maybe on the margins. Let's assign it a 15% chance that AI, for example, gets away from us and we are now ruled by machines that may actually hate us. Who knows what they want? Why wouldn't we use force to stop that from happening? So you're walking down the street in Midtown Manhattan. It's midnight, you've had a few drinks, you're coming from dinner, you're walking back to your apartment. A guy, a very thuggish looking guy, young man approaches you.

Starting point is 02:20:01 He's 50 feet away. He pulls out a handgun. He lifts it up to you. You also are armed Do you shoot him or do you wait to get shot? Because all the data look he hasn't shot you he's not committed a crime other than carrying a weapon in New York City Maybe he's got a license. You don't know. Could be legal But he's pointing a gun at you. Is it fair to kill him before he kills you even though you can't prove that he will kill you?

Starting point is 02:20:28 If I knew my skills with a gun because he already has it done off. Right, but it turns out that you have some confidence in your ability to stop the threat by force. Are you justified in doing that? I just like this picture. Am I wearing a cowboy hat? No. No, but you are wearing cowboy boots and they're clicking on the cobblestones.

Starting point is 02:20:44 Actually, they're in the meat packing. Okay, but you are wearing cowboy boots and they're clicking on the cobblestones. Actually, we're in meat packing. Okay, great. I like this picture. I'm just, I think about this a lot actually, no. Yeah, I understand your point. But also, I think that metaphor falls apart if there's other nations at play here. So, the same as with the nuclear bomb,

Starting point is 02:21:06 if US doesn't build it, will other nations build it? The Soviet Union build it, China or Nazi Germany. We face this, I mean, we face this and the last president to try and keep in a meaningful way nuclear proliferation under control was John F. Kennedy and look what happened to him. But what's your suggestion? Like is it inevitable?

Starting point is 02:21:29 Well, their position in 1962 was, no, it's absolutely not inevitable. And or perhaps it's inevitable in the sense that our death is inevitable, but as human beings, but we fight against the dying of the light anyway because that's the right thing to do No, we were willing to use force to prevent other countries from getting the bomb because we thought that would be really terrible because we Acknowledged that while they were up sides nuclear weapons just like they're up sides to AI the downside was terrifying in the hands of I Mean, that's the thing that I kind of don't get it's like the applications of that technology in the hands of people who mean to do harm and destroy.

Starting point is 02:22:10 It's like so obviously terrifying. It's not so obvious to me. What I'm terrified about is probably similar thing that you're terrified about is using that technology to manipulate people's minds. That's much more reasonable to me as an expectation. Yeah. A real threat that's possible in the next few years.

Starting point is 02:22:26 But what matters more than that? Well, I think that could lead to like destruction of human civilization through other humans, for example, starting nuclear wars. Yeah, well, I mean, this is one of the reasons I wasn't afraid in the Vladimir Putin interview because it's like, it's all ending anyway. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 02:22:44 Yeah, well, might as well dance on the deck of the Titanic. Don't be a pussy. Enjoy it. I think we will forever fight against the dying of the light as the entirety of the civilization. Someone the other day said that Biden ascribed that to Churchill. That was a Churchill quote. That's kind of what I'm saying. It's like if you live in a society where people don't read anymore

Starting point is 02:23:09 Like people are by definition much more ignorant and you Like what they don't know it It's like I do think the Wikipedia culture and I think there are cool things about Wikipedia Certainly, it's ease of use is high and that's great But people get the sense that like oh, I know a lot about you know this or that or the other thing and it's like The key to wisdom again the key to wise decision-making is knowing what you don't know And it's just so important to be reminded of what a dummy you are and how ignorant you are all the time Yeah, that's why I like having daughters. It's like it's never far from mind how flawed I am and that's important

Starting point is 02:23:44 Yeah, I in the same way hope to be a dad. Oh, one day you're gonna have a ton of pups. Five. Oh, pup. What? You mean, like, children's? Yes. Five. But also I've been thinking again, a dog. But unrelated, I would love to have like five or six kids. Yeah, for sure. What have you found a victim yet? You make it sound so romantic, Tucker. to victim yet? You make it sound so romantic, Tucker. Yeah, I love it. No, you should totally do that. Yeah, 100%.

Starting point is 02:24:10 But also in terms of being humble, you know, I do jiu-jitsu, it's a martial art where you get your ass kicked all the time. I love that. It's nice to get your ass kicked. Physical humbling is unlike anything else, I think. Cause we're kind of monkeys at heart and just getting your ass kicked. Just a little helpful.

Starting point is 02:24:25 I agree. I've had it happen to me twice. Twice is enough. It got me to quit drinking. I was good at starting fights, not good at winning them. But no, I completely agree with that. They may ask, you've been pretty close with Donald Trump. Your private texts about him around the 2020 election

Starting point is 02:24:45 were made public. In one of them, you said you passionately hate Trump. When that came out, you said that you actually know you love him. So how do you explain the difference? You know, my texts reflect a lot of things, including how I feel at the moment that I sent them. That specific text I happened to know since I had to go through it forensically during my

Starting point is 02:25:07 deposition in a case I was not named in. I had nothing to do with whatsoever. It's crazy how civil suits can be used to hurt people who disagree with politically. But I was mad at a very specific person. I mean, really, what that, I mean, you're asking me, I'll tell you exactly what that was. It was the second the election ended, and they stopped voting, stopped the vote counting on election night, I was like, Well, this is and it's all now mail-in ballots and electronic voting machines are like, that's a rigged election. I thought that then I think it now. Now it's obvious that it was. But at the time, I was like, I feel like there's that was like crazy, what just happened. I want but I don't want to go on TV and say that's a rigged election because I don't have any evidence It's a rig election. You can't do that. It's irresponsible. What's wrong?

Starting point is 02:25:53 So I was like I want the Trump campaign was making all these claims about you know this or that fraud So I was trying my best To to substantiate them to follow up on it. Everyone else is like, shut up, Trump, you lost, go away. We're going to indict you. But I felt like my job was to be like, no, the guy's, he's president, he's claiming the election, he's got stolen, and he's making these claims. Let's see if we can, well, the people around him were like so incompetent. It was just absolutely crazy. And I, so I called a couple of times, I finally give up, but I'd call and be like

Starting point is 02:26:29 all right you guys claim that these inconsistencies and this you know whatever this happened give me evidence and I'll put it on tv you know it's my job to bring stuff that is not going to be aired anywhere else to the public I couldn't I was like it was insane how incompetent and unserious they weren't able to provide like well here's the here's the point of the story and of that text So then they come out and say well dead people voted well, that's just an easy call Okay, if a dead person voted we can prove someone's dead because like being dead is one of the few things were good at like verifying Because you start to smell okay, and there's a record of it. It's called a death certificate So it was like give me the names of people who are dead who voted. And then we can get their registration and we can show they voted.

Starting point is 02:27:09 Five names. So I go on TV and I say, this Caroline Johnson, 79 of Waquigan, Illinois, voted. Here's her death certificate. She died. And the campaign sends me this stuff. Now, I in general don't take stuff directly from campaigns because they all lie because their job is to get elected or whatever So I I'm very wary of campaigns having been around it for 30 years So like but I made an exception to my rule and I got a bunch of stuff from them Well, like of the six names two of them were still alive What I was I immediately corrected it the next night CNN did a whole segment on how I was I immediately corrected it the next night. CNN did a whole segment on how I was spreading disinformation,

Starting point is 02:27:47 which I was, by the way, in this one case, they were right. I was so mad. I was like, I hate you. I'm not talking about you. I'm so mad. Anyway, that's the answer. That's what that was. Who are you texting to my producer?

Starting point is 02:28:03 And I was like venting. It's like a producer I was really close to and I've known him for a long time. He's really smart and and he's like he was someone I could like be honest with it I was like, ah And by the way, it's so funny. I mean now I'm doing what was me which I will keep to a minimum But it's like stealing someone's text like what how and by the way, I was an idiot. I should have said come and arrest me I'm not giving you my freaking text messages. Okay. Yeah, but I got bullied into it by a lawyer. I

Starting point is 02:28:31 Didn't believe it. I was weak enough to agree with a lawyer. It's my fault Never should have done that. Fuck you. They're my texts. They're total. I'm not even named in this case I that's what I should have said, but I didn't I Said I was mad on the air the next day, but not in language that colorful. But whatever, whatever, I try to be, I try to be transparent. I mean, I also think by the way, if you watch someone over time, you don't always know what they really think, but you can tell if someone's lying, you know, you can sort of feel it in people And I have lied I'm sure I'll lie again. I don't want to lie, you know, I don't think I'm a liar

Starting point is 02:29:11 I try not to be a liar. I don't want to be a liar. I think it's like really important not to be a liar You said nice things about me earlier. I'm starting a question I have questions. I have a lot of questions talking about it. I hate luxury! I'm gonna have to see your texts after this My texts are so uninteresting now. It's like crazy how uninteresting they are emojis and get lots of dog pictures nice You said you some degree the election was rigged Was it was a stolen really ridiculous 100% stolen like he was rigged to Was it was a stolen? It was 100% stolen. Are you joking? It was rigged to that large of a

Starting point is 02:29:47 quick. Yeah, they completely change the way people vote right before the election on the basis of COVID, which had nothing to do with the pandemic. So in that way it was rigged? Meaning what? 100%. And then...

Starting point is 02:29:57 Manipulated. Then you censor the information people are allowed to get. Anyone who complains about COVID, which is like... By the way, it might have hurt Trump. But I mean, it's like whatever. I mean, you could play it many different ways. You can't have censorship in a democracy by definition. Here's how it works. The people rule, they vote for representatives to carry their agenda to the capital city and get it enacted. That's how they're in charge. And then every few years they get to reassess the performance of those people in an election.

Starting point is 02:30:28 In order to do that, they need access, unfettered access to information. And no one, particularly not people who are already in power, is allowed to tell them what information they can have. They have to have all information that they want, whether the people in charge want it or don't want it or think it's true or think it's false, it doesn't matter. And the second you don't have that, you don't have a democracy. It's not a free election, period. And that's very clear in other countries, I guess, but it's not clear here.

Starting point is 02:31:00 But I would say it's this election that... It took me a while to come to this, but it's this election that's the referendum on democracy, Biden is senile. He's literally senile. He can't talk, he can't walk. The whole world knows that. Leave our borders. People are, you know, everybody, everybody in the world knows it. He can't, he can't, you can't, a senile man is not going to get elected in the most powerful country in the world unless there's fraud, period. Like who would vote for a senile man? He's literally, he literally can't talk and nobody I've ever met thinks he's running

Starting point is 02:31:39 the US government because he's not. And so I think the world is looking on at this coming election and saying, and a lot of the world hates Trump. OK, it's not an endorsement of Trump, but it's true. If Joe Biden gets reelected, democracy is a freaking joke. It's just true. I think half the country doesn't think he's senile. Just think you think that speaking. They don't think he's senile, just thinks he's speaking. Do you really think that? They don't think he's senile? Yeah, I think he just has difficulty speaking. It's like a gradual degradation just getting old.

Starting point is 02:32:16 So cognitive ability is degrading. What's the difference between degraded cognitive ability and senility? Well, senility has a threshold. Like it's beyond the threshold to where he could be a functioning leader. of ability and senility. Well, senility has a threshold of like a, it's beyond a threshold to where he could be a functioning leader. Okay, okay. That may be a term of art that I don't fully understand. Maybe there's like an IQ threshold or something. But I'm happy to go with degraded cognitive ability. Sure. But that's an age thing. But he's the leader of the United States with the world's second largest nuclear arsenal.

Starting point is 02:32:43 I'm with you. I'm a sucker for great speeches and for speaking abilities of leaders. And Biden with two wars going on and potentially more, the importance of a leader to speak eloquently, both privately in a room with other leaders and publicly is really important. I agree with you that rhetorical ability really matters, convincing people that your program is right, telling them what were for national identity, national unity, all come from words. I agree with all of that. But at this stage, even someone who grunted at the microphone would be more reassuring than a guy who clearly doesn't know where he is. And it, and I think everyone knows that. And like, I can't imagine there's an honest person in Washington, which is going to vote for Biden by 90% obviously, because they're all dependent on the federal government for their income.

Starting point is 02:33:29 But is there any person who could say like out of 350 million Americans, like that's the most qualified to lead or even in the top 80% like what? That's so embarrassing that that guy is our president and with wars going on. It's it's scary But it's complicated to understand why Those are the choices we have I agree. Well, it's a failure of the system clear clearly It's not working if you've got one guy over 80 the old the guy on other guy almost at 80 like People that he should not be running any so white you have on the Democrats. I give Dean Phillips. You have People that it should not be running any so why you have on the Democrats. I give Dean Phillips. You have

Starting point is 02:34:11 R.k. Junior until recently. I guess he's independent and then you have Vivek who are all younger people. Yeah Why did they not connect to a degree to where it's such an interesting? I mean, I think it's a really interesting quite there Oh, there are a million different answers and of course, I don't fully understand it even though I feel like I've watched it pretty carefully, but I There are a million different answers and of course, I don't fully understand it even though I feel like I've watched it pretty carefully. But I would say the bottom line is there's so much money vested in the federal apparatus, in the parties, in the government. As I said a minute ago, our economy is dominated by monopolies, but the greatest of all monopolies

Starting point is 02:34:44 is the federal monopoly, which oversees and controls all the other monopolies. So it's like, it's really substantially about the money. It's not ideological, it's about the money. And if someone controls the federal government, I mean, at this point, it's the most powerful organization in human history. Like it's kind of hard to, it's kind of hard to fight that. And in the case of Trump, I know the answer there. They raided Mar-a-Lago. in human history, like it's kind of hard to, it's kind of hard to fight that. And in the case of Trump, I know the answer there.

Starting point is 02:35:08 They raided Mar-a-Lago. They indicted him on bullshit charges. Like, and I felt that in myself too. Even I was like, come on, come on, you know, like whatever you think of Trump. And I agreed with his immigration views. I really like Trump personally. I think he's hilarious and interesting, which he is. But it's like, okay, a lot of people in this country, let's let's get some, you know, let's have a very least like let's have a real debate.

Starting point is 02:35:31 The second messed up your cameras are sorry, I'm getting excited. But the second they rated Mar-a-Lago on a documents charge as someone from DC, I was like, I know a lot about classification and all this stuff and been around it a lot. That's so absurd that I was like, now it's not about Trump. It's about our system continuing. If you can take out a presidential candidate on a fake charge, use the justice system to take the guy out of the race, then we don't have a representative democracy anymore. And I think a lot of Republican voters felt that way. If they hadn't indicted him,

Starting point is 02:36:08 I'm not sure he would be the nominee. I really don't think he would be. So now a vote for Trump is a kind of fuck you to the system. Or an expression of your desire to keep the system that we had, which is when voters get to decide, prosecutors don't get to decide. Look, they told us for four years

Starting point is 02:36:24 that Trump was like a super criminal or something. I've actually been friends with some super criminals. I'm a little less judgy than most. So I didn't discount the possibility that he had, I don't know, he's in the real estate business in New York in the seventies. Like, did he kill someone? I don't know. Yeah. You know, no, I'm not joking.

Starting point is 02:36:42 And I'm not for killing people, but like anything's possible. It's good that you took a stand on that. No, I'm not joking and I'm not killing people but like anything's possible. It's good that you took a stand on that No, I'm not joking. Yeah, I was like, well, who knows, you know, I didn't know and what they came up with was a document charge Are you joking and then the sitting president has the same documents violation, but he's fine It's like it's crazy. This is happening in front of all of us and then it becomes like at that point It's not this is happening in front of all of us and then it becomes like at that point. It's not about Joe Biden It's not about Donald Trump. It's about preserving a system which has worked not perfectly, but pretty freakin well for 250 years I know you don't like Trump. I get it. Let's not destroy that system like we can handle in there four years of Trump I think we can so calm down what we can't handle is a country whose political system is

Starting point is 02:37:26 Run by the Justice Department like that is just your freaking Ecuador at that point. No so speaking of the Justice Department CIA and intelligence agencies of that nature which You've been traveling quite a bit probably tracked by everybody which is the most powerful intelligence agency do you think CIA Massad MI6

Starting point is 02:37:57 SVR and I keep going the Chinese I it depends what you mean by powerful Which one bats above its weight we know Which one is massage just to be clear I guess as we well of course tiny country Yeah, it's very sophisticated Intel service which one has the greatest global reach in comms Which one is most able to read your text assume the NSA? But Chinese clearly pretty good. Israeli is pretty good. The French, actually, are surprisingly good for kind

Starting point is 02:38:33 of a declining country. Their Intel services seem pretty impressive. No, I love France, but you know what I mean? And all that. So the question, I mean, I grew up around all that stuff. That's all totally fine. Like a strong country should have a strong and capable Intel service. So its policymakers can make informed decisions. Like that's what they're for. And so as Vladimir Putin himself noted, and I don't talk

Starting point is 02:38:55 about it very much, but it's true, I applied to the CA when I was in college because, you know, I was familiar with it because of where I lived and had grown up and everything. And I was like, seemed interesting. That's honestly the only reason I was like, living in foreign countries, see history happen, like I'm for that. I applied to the operations directorate, they turned me down on the basis of drug use, actually. True. But anyway, whatever, I was unsuited for it, so I'm glad they turned me down. But the point is, I didn't see CIA as a threat, partly because I was bathing in propaganda about CIA and I didn't see CIA as a threat partly because I was bathing in propaganda about CIA and I didn't really understand what it was and didn't want to know.

Starting point is 02:39:29 But second, because my impression of the time was it was outwardly focused. It was focused on our enemies. I don't have a problem with that as much. The fact that CIA is playing in domestic politics and actually has for a long time was involved in the Kennedy assassination. That's not speculation. That's a fact. And I confirmed that for someone who had read their documents that are still not public. It's shocking. You can't have that. And the reason I'm so mad is I really believe in the idea of representative government acknowledging its imperfections. But like I should have some say, I live here, I'm a citizen, I pay all your freaking taxes. So the fact that they would be tampering with American democracy is so outrageous to me. And I don't know why Morning Joe is not outraged. This parade of dummies, highly credentialed dummies they have on Morning Joe every day, they don't seem to,

Starting point is 02:40:24 that doesn't bother them at all. How could that not bother you? Why is only Glenn Greenwald mad about it? I mean, it's confirmed it's not like a fever dream, it's real. They played in the last election domestically. And I guess it shows how dumb I am because they've been doing that for many years. I mean, the guy who took out Mosodeck lived on my street, you know, one of the Roosevelt CIA officer. So I mean, again, I grew up around this stuff, but I never really thought, I never reached the obvious conclusion, which is that if the US government subverts democracy in other countries in the name of democracy, it will over time subvert democracy in my country. Why wouldn't it? That is the corruption is like core, it's at the root of it.

Starting point is 02:41:13 The purpose of the CIA was envisioned, at least publicly envisioned, as an intel gathering apparatus for the executive so the president could make wise foreign policy decisions. What the hell is happening in country X? I don't know. Let me call the agency in charge of finding out. The point wasn't to freaking guarantee the outcome of elections. I'm doing an Israel-Palestine debate next week, but I have to ask you just your thoughts, maybe even from a U.S. perspective, what do you think about Hamas attacks on Israel? What would be the right thing for Israel to do and what's the right thing for US to do in this? Looking at the geopolitics of it. I mean, it's not a topic that I get into a lot because I'm a non-expert. And because I'm not, unlike every other American, I'm not emotionally invested in other countries just in

Starting point is 02:42:06 general. I mean, I admire them or not, and I love visiting them. I love Jerusalem, probably my favorite city in the world, but I don't have an emotional attachment to it. So maybe I've got more clarity. I don't know, maybe less. Here's my view. I believe in sovereignty as mentioned, and I think each country has to make decisions based on its own interest but also with reference to its own capabilities and its own long-term interest and it's very unwise for Not a huge fan of treaties some are fine too many bad But I think US aid military aid to Israel and the implied security guarantees, some explicit but

Starting point is 02:42:46 many implied security guarantees of the United States to Israel probably haven't helped Israel that much long term. It's a rich country with a highly capable population like every other country. It's probably best if it makes its decisions based on what it can do by itself. by itself. So I would definitely be concerned if I lived in Israel because I think fair or unfair, and really this is another product of technology, social media, public sentiment in that area is boiling over. And I think it's going to be hard for some of the governments in the region, Jordan, Egypt, Turkey to contain their own populace. They don't want conflict with Israel at all. They were all pretty psyched actually for the trend in progress. The Saudi peace deal, which was never signed,

Starting point is 02:43:30 but it would have been great for everybody. Because like trade, peace, normal relations, like that's good. Okay, let's just say, I know John Bolton doesn't like it, but it's good. And it's kind of what we should be looking for. But now it's not possible. And if you had like a coalition of countries against Israel, I know it is really nuclear weapons

Starting point is 02:43:53 and as a capable military and all that in the backing of the United States, but like you don't, it's a small country. I think I'd be very worried. So there's that. And I don't see any advantage in to the United States. I mean, I don't, I think it's important for each country to make its own decisions. But it also is a place, like you said, where things are boiling over and it could spread across

Starting point is 02:44:21 multiple nations into a major military conflict. Yeah. Well, I think very easily could happen. In fact, probably right after Ramadan, if I had to guess. And yeah, I pray it doesn't. But again, I don't think you can overstate the lack of wisdom, weakness, short-term thinking of American foreign policy leadership. These are the architects of the Iraq war of the totally pointless destruction of Libya, totally pointless destruction of Syria, and the 20 year occupation of Afghanistan that resulted in a return to the status quo. So like, they're of the Vietnam war, their track record of the Korean war even going back 80 years is uninterrupted failures, one after the other. So I just don't have any confidence in those leaders to improve. When was the last time they improved another country? Can you think of the, oh, the Marshall Plan? Well, you look at Europe now and you're like, I don't know, you know, if that worked. But even if it did work, again, 80 years ago. So when was the last country American foreign policy makers improved? So if I were Netanyahu is in a very difficult place

Starting point is 02:45:33 politically impossible, I'm glad I'm not Netanyahu. And I'm not sure he's capable of making wise long term decisions anyway. But if I was just like an Israeli, I'd be like, I don't know if I want like all this help and guidance. So yeah, I actually think it's worse than just having just returned from the Middle East and talking to a lot of pretty open minded sort of pro Israeli Arabs who want stability above all the merchant class always wants stability. So I'm on their side, I guess, and they're like, man, this could get super ugly, super fast. American leadership is completely absent. It's all posturing. It's like people like Nikki Haley. You just wonder like, how does an advanced civilization promote someone like Nikki Haley to a position of authority. It's like what?

Starting point is 02:46:29 Adults are talking. Adults are talking. Nikki Haley, please go away. Like that would be the appropriate response, but everyone's so intimidated to be like, oh, she's a strong woman. She's so transparently weak and sort of ridiculous and doesn't know anything and it's just like thinks that jumping up and down and making these absurd blanket statements repeating bumper stickers is like leadership or something It's like a Self-confident advanced society would never allow Nikki Haley to advance. I mean, she's really not impressive Sorry, I just feel like you hold back too much and don't tell us what you really think Sorry, I think you just speak your mind off. Well, my brain, you can completely disagree with my opinions, but in the case of Nikki

Starting point is 02:47:11 Haley, it's not like an opinion form just from watching television, which I don't watch. It's an opinion form from knowing Nikki Haley. So strong words from Tucker. Well, felt too. Well, the world's in the balance. I mean, it's not just like this is important stuff. Yeah, it's not just like, well, you know, what should the capital gains rate be? It's like, do we live or die? I don't know. Let's

Starting point is 02:47:34 consult Nikki Haley. So if you're asking, should we live or die and consult Nikki Haley? Clearly, you don't care about the lives of your children. That's how I feel. Not to try to get a preview or anything, but do you have interest of interviewing Xi Jinping? And if you do, how will you approach that? I have enormous interest in doing that, enormous. And a couple other people and we're working on it. Yeah, I should also say like, it's been refreshing you interviewing world leaders. I think when I've started seeing you do that,

Starting point is 02:48:08 it made me realize how much that's lacking. Well, yeah, it's just interesting. I mean, from even a historical perspective, it's interesting, but it's also important from a geopolitics perspective. Well, it's really changed my perspective and I've been going on about how American I am and I think that's a great thing.

Starting point is 02:48:24 I love America. But it's also, you know, we're so physically geographically isolated from the world even though I traveled a ton as a kid a lot, you know, more than most people. But even now I'm like, I'm so parochial. I'm so I see everything through this lens and getting out and seeing the rest of the world to which we really are connected, like that's real, is vitally important. So I, yeah, I mean, at this stage, I don't, you know, kind of need to do it, but I really want to just motivated by curiosity and trying to expand my own mind and not be closed-minded and really see the fullest perspective I possibly can in order to render wise judgments. I mean that's like the whole journey of life.

Starting point is 02:49:09 I was just hanging out with Rogan yesterday, Joe Rogan, and you know I mentioned to him that it's me being a fan of his show that I would love for him to talk with you and he said he's up for it. And your reason you guys haven't done it already? I don't know. I would, there's no, I've only met Rogan once and I liked him. I met him at the UFC in New York.

Starting point is 02:49:36 He was with somebody, a mutual friend of ours. And I, you know, Rogan changed media. I mean, maybe more than anybody. And he did it. What I love about what I admire about Rogan, without knowing him beyond medium that one time. I mean, I'm still in media, but I've always been in media. You know, it's like not a great surprise. I'm doing what I've always done, just a different format.

Starting point is 02:49:58 But Rogan, like he's got one of those resumes that I admire. You know, I liked the guy who was like, I was a long Charmin. I was a short order cook. I was an astrophysicist. I was like, these are called a man of parts. And this guy was a fighter or a standup comic. He hosted some, you know, fear factor and like, how did he wind up at the vanguard of like the deepest conversations in the country?

Starting point is 02:50:23 Like, how did that happen? So I definitely respect that. And I think it's cool. And he, Rogan is one of those people who just kind of came out of nowhere. Like no one helped him. You know what I mean? He was doing the thing that he loves doing

Starting point is 02:50:37 and it somehow keeps accidentally of being exceptionally successful. Yeah. And he's curious. So that's like the main thing. And there was a guy without getting boring, but there was a guy I worked with years ago with like kind of dominated cable news, Larry King. And everyone would always beat up on Larry King

Starting point is 02:50:54 for being dumb while I got to know Larry King well. And I was his fillin' host for a while. And Larry King was just intensely curious. He'd be like, why do you wear a black tie, Lex? Because I like black tie. Why do you like black tie? No, not everyone else wears a striped tie, but you wear a black one.

Starting point is 02:51:06 And he was like really interested. Yeah, genuinely so, yeah. Totally. And I wanna be like that. I don't wanna think I know everything. That's so boorish and also false, you don't know everything. But I see that in Rogan.

Starting point is 02:51:19 Rogan's like, raw, how does that work? And people will, and it's so funny how that's threatening to people It's like Rogan will just sit there while someone else is you know free-balling on some far-out topic, which by the way might be true Probably true than the conventional explanation people like I don't know how can he stand that? You know, he had someone say the pyramids weren't built 3,000 years ago, but 8,000 years ago, and that's wrong It's like first of all How do you know when the pyramids were built?

Starting point is 02:51:46 Second, why do you care if someone disagrees with you? Like, what is that? This weird kind of like group think it's almost like, you know, fourth grade. There's always like some little girl on the front row was like acting as the, you know, kind of the teacher's enforcer, like whip around and be like, sit down. She didn't you hear it, Mr. Johnson? Sit down. That's like the whole American media. How dare you ask that question?

Starting point is 02:52:12 And Rogan just seems like completely on his own trip. Like, he doesn't even hear it. He's like, well, really, when were the pyramids built? And I was like, oh, I love that. Yeah, curiosity, open mind. Yes. The thing I admire about him most honestly is that he's a good father, he's a good husband, he's a good family man for many years and that's his place where he escapes from the

Starting point is 02:52:35 world too and it's just beautiful. Without that man, you're destroyed. If I had a wife who was interested at all in any way in what I did. I think I would have gone crazy by now. When we get home, we don't, she's like, how was your day? It was great. Oh, I'm so proud of you. That's the end of our conversation about what I do for a living. And that is such a wonderful and essential respite from, you said, how do I not become

Starting point is 02:52:59 an asshole to the extent I haven't, I kind of have, But how have I not been, you know, transformed into a totally insufferable megalomaniac who like checking his Twitter replies every day or every minute? It's that. Yeah, you got to have the core of your life has to be solid and enduring and not just ephemeral and silly. So the two of you have known each other for what, 40 years? We've been together 40 years together 40 years. Yeah 1984 It was the hottest 15 year old in Newport, Rhode Island. Wow Sounds dirty, but I was I'm talking about myself. I was Just looking in the mirror. Yeah, very nice. So what's the secret to a successful relationship successful marriage? I

Starting point is 02:53:43 Don't even know. I mean, no, I'm serious. I got married in August, 1991, so that's, well, it's our 33rd year of being married. Followed with the collapse of the society. Yeah, yeah, yeah, as noted. Yeah, so you hear these people, it's actually changed my theology a little bit.

Starting point is 02:54:01 Not that I have deep theology, but like, I grew up in a society in Southern California when I was little, that was like a totally self-created society. I mean, Southern California was, it was that root of libertarianism for a reason. It was like, that's where you went to recreate yourself. And so the, the operative assumption there is that you are the sum total of your choices and that free will is everything. And we never consider questions like, well, why did children get cancer? Like, what do they do to deserve it?

Starting point is 02:54:32 Well, of course, nothing, right? Because that would suggest that maybe you're not the sum total of your choices matter. If I smoke a lot of, I get lung cancer. If I use fentanyl, I may OD, got it. If I don't exercise, I might get fat. Okay. But like on a bigger scale, you're not only the sum total of your choices.

Starting point is 02:54:50 Like things happen to you that you didn't deserve, good and bad. And marriages, and I'll speak for myself, in my case, just one of them. And I could, I mean, clearly spending time with the person you're married to, talking, enjoying each other. I have a lot of rituals. We have a lot of rituals that ensure that. But in 40 years,

Starting point is 02:55:11 like you change, you're like a different person. You know, I like did drugs or drinking all the time when we met. You know, it's been a long time since I've been done that. I'm very different. So is she, but we're different in ways that are complimentary and happy. Never been happier. So like, how do we pull that off? Just kind of good luck, honestly. And then I see other people, no, I'm not kidding. But that's true.

Starting point is 02:55:33 I think it's so important not to flatter yourself if you've been successful at something. The thing I've been most successful at is marriage, but it's not really me. I mean, I haven't. So I think what you indirectly communicate is it's like humility, I think. It's not even humility. Humility is the result of a reality-based worldview. Sure. Right. Once you see things clearly, then you know that you are not the author of all your successes or failures. And I hate the implication otherwise

Starting point is 02:56:08 because it suggests powers that people don't have. It's one of the reasons I always hated the smoking debate or the COVID debate. Someone died of COVID and you know the facts, they'd be like, see, that's what you get. You smoke cigarettes, you die. Well, shit, I, you know, yeah, if you smoke cigarettes, you're more likely to get lung cancer.

Starting point is 02:56:22 If you don't, you know, if you get whatever, cause and effect is real. I'm not denying its existence. It's obvious. But it's not the whole story. There are larger forces acting on us, unseen forces. That's just a fact. You don't need to be some kind of religious nut and they act on AI too.

Starting point is 02:56:39 And you should keep that in mind. The idea that all- The financing way you said that. No, it's true. It's, it's demonstrably true. We're the only society that hasn't financing way you said that. No, it's true. It's demonstrably true. We're the only society that hasn't acknowledged the truth of that. And the idea that the only things that are real are the things that we can see or measure in a lab. Like, that's insane. That's just dumb.

Starting point is 02:56:56 In the religious context, you have this two categories that I really like of the two kinds of people. People who believe they're God and people who know they're not, which is a really interesting division that speaks to humility and a kind of realist world view of where we are in the world. Can atheists be in the latter category? No. There are very few atheists. I've never actually met one. There are people who pose as atheists, but no one's purely rational. And everyone, I mean, this is a cliche for a reason, everyone under extreme stress appeals to a power higher than himself because everyone knows that there is a power higher than himself. So really, it's just people who are gripped with the delusion that they're God. No one actually believes that. If you're God, jump off the roof of your garage and see what

Starting point is 02:57:51 happens. You know what I mean? No one actually thinks that. But people behave as if it's true and those people are dangerous. And I will say by contrast, the only people I trust are the people in Other Limits. And I was thinking actually this morning in my sauna, of all the people I've interviewed or met, this is someone I've never interviewed but I have talked to him a couple of times, the greatest leader I've ever met in the world is literally a king. It's MBC Sheikh Mohammed of Abu Dhabi

Starting point is 02:58:24 who is Muslim. I am definitely not Muslim, I'm Christian, Protestant Christian. And so I don't agree with his religion. And I don't agree with monarchies. But he's the best leader in the world that I've ever met. And by far, it's like not even close. And why is that? Well, there I could bore you for an hour on the subject, but the reason that he's such a good leader is because he's guided by an ever-present knowledge of his limitations and of the limits of his power and of his foresight. And when you start there, when you start with reality, it's not even humility. Humility can be opposed like, well, I'm so humble. Okay. Humble brag is a phrase for a reason. It's not even humility. Humility can be opposed like, well, I'm so I'm so humble. Okay Humble brag is a phrase for a reason. It's like way deeper than that. Just like no

Starting point is 02:59:10 Can I do I have magical powers? Can I see the future? No, okay. That's just a fact. So I'm not God But I've never seen anybody more at ease with admitting that and what then MBZ just a remarkable person. And for that reason, he is like treated as an oracle. I don't think people understand the number of world leaders who traipse through his house or palace to seek his counsel is there's no I'm not sure that there is a parallel since I don't want to get too hyperbolic here, but honestly, since like Solomon, where people come from like around the world to ask what he thinks. Now, why would they be doing that? Because Abu Dhabi's military is so powerful. I mean, he's rich, okay, massive

Starting point is 02:59:59 oil and gas deposits, but like for a lot of, you know, so is Canada, you know what I mean? deposits, but like for a lot of, you know, so is Canada. You know what I mean? And no one is coming to Ottawa, Ottawa to ask Justin Trudeau what he thinks. No, it's humility. That's where wisdom comes from. You start to think like, I spent my whole life like mad at America's leadership class, because it's not just Biden or the people in official positions, it's the whole constellation of advisors and throne sniffers around them. And it's not that even that I disagree with them, it's I'm not impressed by them.

Starting point is 03:00:31 I'm just not impressed. They're not that capable, right? So that's what I was saying about Nikki Haley. It's I don't think she's, Nikki Haley's the most evil person in the world. I think she's ridiculous, obviously. And everyone's like, oh, Nikki Haley, Mike Pompeo. What? Great leaders are so rare that when you see one, you know it right away.

Starting point is 03:00:50 He blows your mind. And what blows my mind about. Sheikh Mohammed in Abu Dhabi is that everyone in the world knows it. And I've never seen a story on this. I know, and I'm not guessing. I know this is true because I've seen it. Everyone in the world knows it. and so if there's a conflict He's the only person that people call like everybody calls the same guy

Starting point is 03:01:11 And it's like he runs this tiny little country the UAE. I mean he's the You know Abu Dhabi there are a bunch of Emirates, but he's the president of the country But still and it's got a ton of energy and all that's a little wealth and all that. And Dubai's got great real estate restaurants, but really it's a tiny little country that wasn't even a country 50 years ago. So how did that happen? Purely on the basis of his humility and the wisdom that results from that humility. That's it. What advice would you give to young people?

Starting point is 03:01:42 You got four. She somehow made them into great human beings. What advice would you give to young people? You got four. She somehow made them into great human beings. What advice would you give to people in high school? Have children immediately. Oh, that. Including in high school? Yes. I think that. That's all that matters. Like in the end, you know, again, these aren't even cliches anymore because no one says them. But when I was a kid, people would say, on your deathbed, you never wish you spent more time at work. And I mean, everyone said that it was like one of these things. And now, now I don't think Google When I was a kid, people would say, on your death bed, you never wish you spent more time at work. And I mean, everyone said that. It was like one of these things.

Starting point is 03:02:07 And now, now I don't think Google allows you to say that. It's like, no, you're gonna wish you spent more time at work. Get back to your cube. But I can't overstate from my vantage how true that is. Nothing else matters, but your family. And if you have the opportunity, a lot of people are being denied the opportunity Nothing else matters but your family. And if you have the opportunity, a lot of people are being denied the opportunity to have children and this messing with the gender roles.

Starting point is 03:02:33 And I'm not even talking about the training stuff. I mean, feminism has so destroyed people's brains and the ability of young people to connect with each other and stay together and have fruitful lives. It's like nothing's been more destructive than that. It's such a lie. It's so dumb. It's counter to human nature and nothing counter to human nature can can endure, it can only cause suffering and that's what it's done. But fight that. Stop complaining about it. Find someone. By the way,

Starting point is 03:03:00 everyone gets together, most people get together on the basis in a western society where there's no arranged marriages. They get together on the basis in a western society where there's no arranged marriages. They get together on the basis of sexual attraction. Totally natural. Get off your birth control and have children. Oh, I can't afford that. Well, yeah, you'll figure out a way to afford it once you have kids. It's like it's chicken and the egg, but it's actually not. When you have responsibility, when you have no choice, this is true of men. I'm not sure of true women, but it's definitely true of men. You will not achieve until you have no choice, this is true of men. I'm not sure of true women It's definitely true of men. You will not achieve until you have no choice

Starting point is 03:03:28 As I always think of men Men do nothing until they have to but once they have to they will do anything That is that is true men will do nothing unless they have to but once they have to they will do anything I really believe that from watching and from being one and I would never have done anything if I didn't have to, but I had to. And I would just recommend it. But by the way, even if you don't succeed, it even if you're poor. But having spent my life among rich people, I grew up among rich people, I am a rich person. Boy, are they unhappy. Well, that's clearly not the road to happiness. You don't want to be a debt slave or starved to death or anything like that. But like, making a billion dollars, that's not worth doing. Don't do that. Don't even try to do that.

Starting point is 03:04:09 If you create something that's beautiful and worth having and you make a billion dollars, okay, then you have to deal with your billion dollars, which will be the worst part of your life, trust me. But seeking money for its own sake is a dead end. What you should seek for its own sake is children. Talk about a creative act. Last thing I'll say, the whole point of life is to create. Okay? The act of creation, which is like dying in the West, in the arts, and in its most pure expression, which is children, that's all that's worth doing while you're alive is creating something beautiful. And creating children, by the way, it's super fun.

Starting point is 03:04:45 It's not hard. I can get more technical off the air if you want. Can you? Yeah, please. I have a lot of thoughts on it. Do you have documents or something? No, I can draw you a schematic. Oh, thank you.

Starting point is 03:04:54 But yeah, that's the greatest thing. And the fact that corporate America denies, oh, free shirags, have an abortion. What? You're you're evil. Are you kidding? Because you're taking from people the only thing that can possibly give them enduring joy. And they are successfully taking it from people. And I hate them for it. You found a TCN, talk across the network. What's your vision for it?

Starting point is 03:05:18 I have no vision for myself or my career. And I never have. So I'm like the last person to explain. Do you think you're old with it? Yeah, I'm an instinct guy, 100%. I have a vision for the world, but I don't have a vision for my life or my career. So really, my vision extended precisely this far. I just want to keep doing what I'm doing. I just want to keep doing what I'm doing. And there was a five-hour period where I wondered if I would be able to because I feel pretty spry and like alert and I'm certainly deeply enjoying what I'm doing which is talking to people and saying what I think and learning constantly learning and but I just wanted to keep doing that and so

Starting point is 03:05:57 and I also wanted to employ the people who I worked with at Fox I've worked with the same people for years and I love them. And so I had all these people and I wanted to bring them with me. So we had to build a structure for that. But this feels like one of the first times you're really working for yourself. Like, there's an extra level of freedom here. Totally, totally. And the good, you know, I'm not, you don't want me doing your taxes. Like, I'm good at some things, but I'm really not good at others. So I'm one of them would be like running a business. No idea. I'm not, you don't want me doing your taxes. Like I'm good at some things, but I'm really not good at others. So I'm more than would be like running a business.

Starting point is 03:06:27 I have no idea. I'm not interested, not a commerce guy. So I don't buy anything. So it's like a whole thing I'm not good at. But luckily, you know, I'm really blessed to have friends who are involved in this who are good at that. So I feel positive about it, but mostly I am, I'm totally committed to only doing the things that I am good at and enjoy

Starting point is 03:06:51 and not doing anything else because I don't want to waste my time. And so I'm just getting to do what I want to do and I'm really loving it. What hope, positive hope, do you have for the future of human civilization in say say, 50 years? 100 years? 200 years? People are great just by their nature. I mean, they're super complicated, but I like people. I always have liked people. You know, if I was sitting with Nikki Haley, who I guess I've been pretty clear

Starting point is 03:07:19 I'm not like a mega fan of Nikki Haley's. I would enjoy it. You know, I've never met anybody I couldn't enjoy on some level given enough time. So as long as nobody tampers with the human recipe, human nature itself, I will always feel blessed by being around other people. And that's true around the world. Like I've never been to a country, and I've been to scores of countries where I didn't given a week really like it and like the people. So yeah, bad leaders are like a, you know, recurring theme in human history. They're mostly bad. And we've got an unusually bad set right now, but we'll have better ones at some point

Starting point is 03:08:05 I just don't want to Don't the one that one thing I don't like more than nuclear weapons and more than AI the one thing that really really bothers me is the idea of using technology to change the human brain permanently Because you're tampering with the secret sauce you're tampering with God's creation and the secret sauce. You're tampering with God's creation and totally evil. I mean, I literally sat there the other day with Klaus Schwab. I was with Klaus Schwab. It was like a total moron. I'm like 100 years old and like, has no idea what's going on in the world. But he's like one of these guys who, speaking of mediocre, everyone's so afraid of Klaus Schwab. I don't think Klaus Schwab is going to be organizing anything. He's just like a total figureheadhead like a douchebag. But anyway, but he was talking and

Starting point is 03:08:49 he's reading all these talking points like all the cool kids are talking about a dafos and whatever. And he starts talking about in his survey and his accent. I think it's so important that we follow in an ethical way. Always in an ethical way, of course very ethical, I'm a very ethical man, that we follow the, you know, using technology to improve the human mind and implant the chips in the brain and I'm like, okay, you have no idea what you're talking about. You're like as senile as Joe Biden, but what was so striking is that no one in the room was like, wait, what? You're fucking with people's brains? Like, what are you even talking about? Who do you think you are?

Starting point is 03:09:31 I mean, you're right, the secret sauce, the human mind is really special. Like, we should not mess with it. It's all the matter, dude. It should be very careful. And whatever special thing it does, it seems like it's a good thing. Like human beings are fundamentally good.

Starting point is 03:09:48 And like these sources of creativity, a creative force in the universe we don't want to mess with. Oh, I mean, what else matters? I don't understand. I mean, I guess, look, I don't want to seem like the unabomber and I'm not. We are in a cabin in the woods. No, I don't. I'm sympathetic to some of his ideas, but not, of course, sending mail bombs to people

Starting point is 03:10:10 because I like people, but I'm going to don't believe in violence at all. But I think the problem with technology, one of the problems with technology is the way that people approach it in a very kind of mindless, heedless way. And I think it's important, this idea that it's inexorable and we can't control it and if we don't do it, someone else will and there's some truth in that. But it's not the whole story. We do have free will. And we are creating these things intentionally. And I think it's incumbent on us, it's a requirement of a moral requirement of us, that we ask like, is this a requirement of a moral requirement of us, that we ask, like,

Starting point is 03:10:46 is this a net gain or a net loss? What, to the extent we can foresee them, will the effects be? Et cetera, et cetera. It's like it's not, not super complicated. So I just, I, I prize long-term thinking. I don't always apply to my own life, obviously. I want to. But uh, I prize it and I think that people with power should think about future generations and I don't see that kind of thinking at all. They all seem like children to me and like don't give children handguns because they

Starting point is 03:11:11 can hurt people. Yeah, fundamentally you want people in power to be pro-humanity. By the way, you don't want people who are 81 who are going to die anyway. Why do they care? And by the way, if your track record with your own family is miserable, why would I give you my family to oversee? I just don't... like again, these are artistic level questions that someone should answer. Well, thank you for asking those questions. First of all, and

Starting point is 03:11:39 thank you for this conversation. Thank you for welcoming me to the cabin in the woods. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Tucker Carlson. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from Mahatma Gandhi. When I despair, I remember that all through history, the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. Think of it. Always. Thank you for you

Lex Fridman Podcast - #414 – Tucker Carlson: Putin, Navalny, Trump, CIA, NSA, War, Politics & Freedom

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.