librarypunk - 004 - copywrong - fair use edition

Episode Date: February 28, 2021

It's Fair Use Week! We talk about copyright, music, movies, and gay porn. Find out what AFAB really means, how to behave in Kmart, and why library workers are not cops.    Is This Beverly Hills Cop Playing Sublime's 'Santeria' to Avoid Being Live-streamed?    

Robert Deval can get it. Yeah. That was a really good Robert. I think that's like one of my, like a lot of people are in amazing roles in that movie. Yeah. Like Robert Duval's role is so good as the, as Tom Hayden. Yeah, so good. Anyway.

Yeah. I wish I could, you know, have kill someone in a restaurant and then go fuck off to Italy. Just Italy for a year. And fuck the lady with, yeah. fucking with no nipples. I don't know. That's the thing that I... That was the smoothest proposal I've ever seen in my life, by the way.

I was like, taking notes. Like, you could lose a daughter instead of gaining a son. I was like, oh! That's smooth as shit, dude. Good. Apollonia. There are so many, like, I don't know why I remember. There is such a big part of...

I don't know why I have so much mental space devoted to the godfather, but I do. My roommates in college. had to post her and then she had the little puppet tattoo. She was obsessed with it. Oh, cute. Actually, I love the book. There's a whole scene in the book that's like a vaginaplasty.

That's pretty great. If you ever want to know. Trigger warning. There's a vaginaplasty. It's actually a pelvic floor surgery because there's a whole thing about Sunny having a huge dick. And it's only alluded to in the movie. Briefly at the wedding. Yes.

Yes. The hand gesture. I was like, get it, girls. It's explored in much more detail in the book. Oh, it's explored. Yes. It is thoroughly a major plot point in the book.

Sunny's massive dong. Oh, Sunny. Okay. I think maybe Kyle forgot or something. I'm sorry. I feel bad. It's my fault. It's only 716.

It's 816. In the central time zone. Kyle is in Boston Well Boston He's in Boston Because he works at Havid He talked his cat I haven't had

Havid Yad So apparently Chris's parents Are related to the departed Even though it's New Hampshire But Boston's like I could sneeze and hit Boston The fucking departed The fucking departed

The fucking departed Allegedly Allegedly go fuck yourself He showed me the rat At the end Just that Yeah Yeah because I've never seen it

And he's like fucking sick of it. That's another movie that I have a lot of brain space devoted to. I love Scorsese. That's another movie I got obsessed with in college. So there's a Korean movie. It's actually based on called Infernal Affairs. That's right. I'm not reading that.

And it's pretty good. So, I mean, you could always watch Infernal Affairs, which would be like watching The Departed without watching The Departed. but then you would miss Alec Baldwin going face to face with Marky Mark, with Matt Damon in the middle, and Leo DiCaprio being weirdly sexy. Yeah. I don't find Leo DeCaprio sexy at all, but some reason. Except in Romeo and Juliet. I've never seen that. He crosses the like twink, butch.

That's not my thing. Continuum. He's hot, yeah. I know my thing either, but I wouldn't look like it. It's a good movie. Yeah. Okay. I just know the soundtrack whips.

It does whip. We used to listen to that a lot when it came out. I mean, yeah, that's great. Fucking whips. Fucking whips. What whips? We need to have our own little segment. Let's talk about movies so Jake can get it out.

I just finally watched 9 to 5. Oh. If someone had told me that Dolly Parton's Soft Dom's Dabney Coleman in a fantasy revenge scenario when she's high, I would have watched that Lickley Split. I got to see it because I'd seen it before, but I got to see it on

my 21st birthday. And in Champaign-Urbana at the not the art theater, but the other one. Yeah. They were doing a screening and me and my friend snuck in some flasks of alcoholic beverages. And so I was getting tipsy watching 9 to 5 up in the balcony. Nice. I was like, I was watching

it drinking beer on my bike, so I was getting tipsy too. Did you guys? It wasn't my 21st birthday. I don't remember how old I was. Am I muted? I was regrettable. I was 32 on my bike last night.

Oh, okay. No, you're not muted. Yeah. You know you're not muted, Sadie. I tell me. I really. But now she's muted herself trying to unmute. I really enjoyed that movie a lot and I wish I had seen it sooner.

This is no longer muted. Yay. Okay. Congratulations. Okay. I'm using the button and it doesn't show us. up on like the Zencaster? Yeah, it blinks when it's on.

Okay. I wasn't sure which way it was, but yeah, the, uh, did you guys, either of you see that, uh, TikTok that was like somebody saying that if you slowed down Dolly Parton or sped up Hosier, it was the same music. Like, if you slowed down Dolly Parton, it became Hosier. I've been pronouncing it wrong this entire time. I have no idea. I don't know.

I don't know who that is. He's the, take me to church. I'll move back down. I don't know. The horny Irish Catholic. Yeah. I have no frame of reference for that whatsoever. Oh, it's moreover.

Yeah, I'm one of those people who's like kind of like, there are a lot of pop cultural references that I will miss. I'm a pop culture void. Yeah. You know, my wife got really, really excited about it because Dolly Parton's from Appalachia. Am I saying that right? Appalachia. It goes both ways. I'm fine with it.

And she was like, she was like, this proves that it's, it's, the accents are very similar and that Appalachia is like. It was settled by Irish. Yep. Yep. Yep. Exactly. In the subpoly colonialist project of America.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the southern accent is way closer to the way British, English used to be pronounced. Mm-hmm. Then received pronunciation is now. Mm-hmm. There's the Tangers Island where it basically. Basically, English has been unchanged for like 400 years.

It's off the coast of Virginia. Oh, yeah. He's like, have you ever seen the actors that try to do that will do Shakespeare as it was actually pronounced? And you get a lot more jokes out of it. They sound like Hagrid. Yeah, well, it's like in one of them where it's like hours and hours. It's actually pronounced oars and oars. And so it sounds like you're saying horrors and oars.

Hors and oars. Hors and oars, yeah. Lat bulbs. That actually, this is a very full circle of conversation with accents. I so yeah 10 minutes at shoppers many cities have local ordinances

prohibiting smoking on the sales floor of a retail store we ask that you cooperate by safely extinguishing all smoking materials in the containers provided at the entrance to the store thank you for not smoking I love this like full house background music I wish I wish smoking was the least of our problem

in a retail environment. Yeah. Yeah, I've got some fun new drops based on... New drops, best drop. From the Kmart tapes? That's the only one from the Kmart tape.

That was really funny. Most of them were like, Layaway exists. It's like, whatever. So my brother worked at a Kmart for five years during high school and college. And him and his friends, they used to prank each other and do things like put condoms on layaway and stuff.

really good really good stuff high school pranks car pranks car pranks just brand i do car pranks with misbehaving run through the house with a pickle in my mouth running to house with a pickle in my mouth misbehaving we are officially misbehaving on this podcast Justin's gonna fire us you. I don't pay you to group off. You'll pay me at all. Yeah, you don't pay us, period. You're fired from this voluntary gig.

Yeah. I just don't think it's working out. I just mentioned something to my boss about, like, my friend started a podcast and I'm on it. And he was like, oh, that's really cool. Like, what is it? And I was like, I'm not going to tell you because it's not very professional because he's a very, like, he's like a straight-laced cinnamon roll. And I just don't want to ruin that.

Yeah, I told my coworkers, because like during our faculty meetings, and we're all pretty close, right? We have like a little like round robin and you can like tell cool things you're doing. I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm doing like a library podcast now where it's like from a leftist perspective. So, you know, politics and I'm not professional at all in it. But, you know, if you want to listen to it, here you go. So, you know, some of them follow my Twitter. So they can't be too shocked. Yeah.

I put it on Tumblr. See if that'll get any views. Yeah. We have very... We haven't introduced ourselves. We're terrible. We haven't even done our show intro. Yeah.

Well, no, I'm going to do the cold open as Jay saying, who could get it? I forgot. But that's going to be the cold open. Robert Duval could get it. In the Godfinaldolk, Robert Duval could get it. In the Godfinaldol. It's just going to cut straight to the music. I just kept going like, Chris, Robert Duval could get it.

in 1977, right? Yeah, something like that. Yeah. No guess this week. Maybe. Probably. Probably at this point, no guest. Yeah.

I put it in a link to the creepy AI faces recently. I don't know if everyone got a chance to look at it, but they're taking old photos. So I guess we're going to talk about fair use because it's fair use week. Yeah. And they're really creepy looking because they're not like, they don't have skeletons and like the muscle so the muscle movement is kind of like jello uncanny valley-esque is this the old photographs that more yeah like of emily dickinson

yeah not deep fakes and i hate it yeah that's essentially what they are yeah they're deep fakes they use the same technology i'm pretty sure yeah probably it's not right oh yeah oh no i'm watching it right now yeah you can just upload any photo. Like people are out uploading like the like a really weird one is like the Van Gogh self portrait. Yes. I was just looking at that one. I mean,

it's a really interesting thing about like copyright of your image. Because it's like is it a particular photo or is it just like you as a person right? Or like when you give you know your DNA to all those ancestry 23 and me people like do that

don't they like actually get like. Can they construct your face from that though? No, but like don't they because they retain some sort of rights to it once you send it to them because they're a private company. There's no data retention policy on those sites. I thought they gave you, they thought they had like privacy or copyright over your genetic code or something if you sent that to them. They can like license it or something. Yeah.

There's all kinds of weird stuff around it. They got the Golden State killer. Yeah. There's all kinds of shady shit around it. And I think that links back to like our conversation last week a little bit. well I think the golden state killer was also because Patton Oswald's wife was a true crime writer and that was like her idea that how they would catch him and her name was um Michelle McNamara yes thank you Michelle McNamara I almost said his current wife's name which is Meredith Salinger

and I was like no it's Michelle McNamara yeah I've uh I've read uh you'll be gone in the dark it's really good I'm not even a big true crime person and I really like that I'm I'm the opposite of a true crime person because I watched too much 20-20 when I was younger. I wish too much unsolved mysteries. Also, when my birthday was like a major date in the Making a Murder series, I was like, oh, I gotta stop this. Uh-oh. Yeah.

Oh, I don't like this Virginia Wolf one at all. Uh-uh. No, some of them are really, they don't work. But it's really interesting because it's pretty powerful because just anyone can upload to it. So normally you'd have to have like an artist do this kind of stuff. Yeah, just like the ethics. So are we all artists now?

I mean, it's definitely like a fair use issue because like, you know, people are trying to write AI into fair dealing and fair use. But, you know, I mean, some of these photos are eventually going to be ones that are that are still under copyright. Someone's going to try, you know, photos from the 40s and 50s. Does that count as transformative? Yeah, I think it does. I think that would be the argument at the Google Books precedent.

Oh, yeah. Is that this is transformative because it's not like replacing a market. Like it's not like you were going to buy that photo, but instead you've got this 3D photo. So, so for people, I guess for people who don't know anything about fair use, we can go over the four-factor test. before we, I guess before we do our warm up, because I also want to go over the cop playing copyrighted music. So the four-factor test, so they're basically the annoying thing about fair use,

but also the kind of thing that makes it work, is that there's almost no conclusive answer. So a lot of, like, faculty, for instance, say, oh, it's an educational use, therefore it's a fair use, and that's not how it works. Yeah, my copyright professor said, like, it fits on a PowerPoint slide, the entire wording of that part of the law, one slide. Yeah.

Yeah. It balances four different factors that all have to be weighted independently. And I put up, I put, I put, I was in a fair use game show this week. And one of the questions was like, is this fair use? And it was split 49.51. So like that shows you how annoying copyright can be because no one in the room could agree. These were all like librarians and faculty members. but a lot of people go, oh, if it's an educational use, that's it.

And it's like, well, no, because you can't, like, copy an entire textbook and put it in your course because that's impacting the market, which is one of the factors. And plenty of, plenty of for-profit stuff is still fair use. Like, you could sell fiction if you wanted to, if it's transformative. Yeah, you might still get sued. Air area. Again. And riced. Yeah.

Enforcement is the whole of the law, because we would all be guilty of breaking up. copyright like every day if it was fully enforced. So the first factor is the purpose and character. So nonprofit and educational uses are higher than for profit and like creative uses. And that goes into the second one, which is the nature of the work factual and published works are more likely to be a fair use than creative works, which is, which is annoying if you're teaching creative works. So that again, you have to balance out the different factors. The amount used. smaller is better, but a full copy can be fair use. So, for instance, uploading the photo into ancestry,

like you're using the whole work, but in a way that is not, that is nonprofit, and that is about factual work. And then the effect on the market, does your use impact sales? And so that's kind of what the Google book case was, is, you know, Google was pointing people to where you could buy the books. I mean, like on Google books, probably.

But it was still, like, not really replacing the, market and had too much of a scholarly value. That was the judgment of the court, whether or not, you know, that's right. And with the amount used, the way that I've heard that one particularly phrase is the heart of the work as well, because it could be a very small amount, but if that's like the heart of it, like why someone would seek that work out, that might actually not be very use, even if it's a small amount. Whereas like, you could have a bigger section that like no one gives a shit about,

and that would be fine, even if you're kind of tiptoe in the line a bit. But yeah, that was, it was always described to me as, like, the heart of the work was a really big factor of that. Yeah, like that political expose that was written about Trump. The only part of that book anyone cared about was, like, one chapter that had to do with, like, the pee tape or something. I don't remember what it was. Right. But, like, if you had only copied that chapter, it would be less than, like, 10% of the book, which is what faculty are told a lot. It's like an urban myth among faculty.

Yeah. Yeah, it's 10% or less. And that's kind of like the, if the teacher doesn't show up. Yeah, that percentage guideline is really flimsy. Yeah, it's like, it's the same kind of urban legend as like if the teacher doesn't show up in 10 minutes, you can leave. Yeah, I'm convinced that like vendors and publishers came up with the percentages because they don't want librarians and like teaching faculty to push back against it and actually exercise the rights. Yeah, because like if you have a pamphlet, what's 10% of a pamphlet

or just 10% of an infinite jest, right? Like, yeah. Those are very different amounts. Exactly. So I mean, like, what's, yeah, you really have to consider like that effect or that impact of like what, what portion are you using, for example. Yeah.

So that's the four factors. So we can keep those in mind as we're talking about other stuff. So I want to go back to the cop playing copyrighted music. I have the whole thing. The whole thing is a drop. I love to talk about this. I'm asking you a question. I'm asking you a question

and you're not now music. That really helps PD license music. I'm asking you a question and you're not now doing your job, are you? So he's in a police office

station and the cop is just staring at his phone. Sir, you're putting on music when I'm trying to talk to you. All this guy is streaming on Instagram. It's a little ridiculous. What a choice You can't turn that off?

Sublime protesters have done this a lot It's not on there, right? Well, it's not, apparently turned it off. The cup just lies And he's like, oh, I'm just trying to look at something. Yeah, because like counter-protesters

That would be ideal. Now, this is later, same cop. He walks up at the cop outside. He immediately starts playing music again and the guy starts walking backwards. You're doing that. What he's doing is he's playing music to try to make it. What are you doing by playing music?

Why are you playing music? Well, then turn down your music. You can't hear you. That doesn't make sense, does it? Maybe you should put your body cam on. Maybe the body cam should have been on earlier. We're in an active crime scene, right? There's a chopper in there.

Sergeant Fares, no body cam. I'm done. Done with you. And didn't another cop do the same thing? No good, champ. No good. No good. No good champ.

Champ. You know what? My guy. Buddy. My dude. Don't call me buddy, guy. Don't call me buddy, buddy. How what?

Dude. That's what we're dealing with. Do you see that? So. Wait, so this vice article calls sublime ska instead of complete utter shit. Which is the genre it actually. is actually good.

It should have been caressed me down, which is a better song. Or literally it has no taste. Anything else. Well, yeah. So when I first saw it,

it did say there was another cop, but the video I watched, it was the same cop, but later, like outside where this guy was trying to fill him. Yeah. So is that fair use? So here's the thing.

Enforcement is the whole of the law. You can do something that's fair use, but automated systems, like on YouTube and Instagram will flag anything, whether or not you have a license. So like when YouTube was suing, I think Viacom about

or no, when Viacom was suing YouTube, it had picked up things that it had uploaded itself. Yeah. Because the bots don't know. Yeah, a bot doesn't know if you have a license. Right. Yeah. Inezvivo, Enjus Vos was getting flagged left and right for all the Orinoco flows.

all the sale of ways, all the only times. I was just reading the EFF's Unfiltered about the YouTube content ID. It talks a lot about that. Like, I don't know if any of you guys have watched Todd in the Shadows. I love Todd in the Shadows. He's a favorite, like, pop music critic. Yeah, they interviewed him for this, I guess. I hadn't gotten to that part yet.

But, yeah, like, he said it all the time. Yeah. And he just stopped trying to even get money. off of the advertisement. He's just decided it wasn't exactly. It's just all Patreon because it's not worthwhile. And he says it's going to change. He could, he could edit for the content ID today. And then two days from now, it'll get flagged because they've just, they've changed exactly how it works. And I think it's like if you get a certain amount of flags or takedowns or something, then they just like delete your account. Yep. Yeah, they can. Yeah. And you can get flags on videos you've already

taken down. Exactly. Which has happened to people. So the whole system is like you could lose like, you know, if you have like a million followers, that's like a livelihood. Yeah. Like DMCA is sort of opposite as to how the law is supposed to work. And that like in the law, it's like you have to be proven guilty or assumed in a sense. Whereas DMCA, you are assumed guilty.

And you have to prove in a sense. And DMCA is terrible and awful. This is the one bad thing Prince ever did. They also interview Lindsay Ellis, which. I'm not sure. I'm not sure if this is before or after the ABO lawsuit debacle, but I'm kind of hoping it's after so she can talk about it. Yeah, because that would be cool to talk about like. DNCA is a threat. Where hers wasn't fair use because she was being critical.

Yeah. No, she was actually, that's the definition. Yeah, that's, I remember when we were watching that video, I actually paused. it and looked at my wife and was like, that's the actual like definition of fair use is, is you got to use it. Like if you're using it as for criticism or something like that, then it's fair use. So like this person clearly has no idea what they're talking about. Yeah, like the trend of fair use like about like probably five, ten years ago, it was all on,

and even probably it was all on satire and criticism. Because you had like all of the like that guy with the glasses folks, they kept getting their videos flagged for their reviews once they moved to YouTube and they did this whole like, where's the fair use? What the fuck like campaign? And now it's all about transformative works. It's like fair use is sort of synonymous with transformative now where it used to be sort of synonymous with satire and criticism.

Ignoring that it can be other things. You can just be like art or educational, right? But I feel like that's sort of the trend. It moved away from, oh, it's satire. So therefore it's fair use to. this is transformative. Which is a difficult case to make actually.

Yes. Because almost everything is derivative. And so a derivative work is not for use. It has to be transformative in some way. So you are already counted against you because it's a derivative. I also,

going back to automated platforms, Patreon is probably going to start scanning files for copyright stuff. So that's probably not going to last very long. But Twitch, Twitch has gotten so crazy about it that they didn't have a license to play Metallica. I love that one.

They played eight bit bulk music. I was like, fuck right to find out. They played fucking music over Metallica on a Twitch stream. Which is just, my heart was so warmed. Because Metallica fucking sucks. And they suck for what they did to Napster in the 90s. And they continue to suck.

and fuck them and you know what Karma and that's the wrong way to use karma I'm a Buddhist I know but still karma baby yeah I was a big

lime wire user back in the day so like yeah frost wire I got money from a Kazah settlement so

oh that's cool yeah back in the day I've got to send you guys the 2005 scene kids get from Oh, no. Two minutes to late night.

I couldn't afford to be a scene kid, so. But he basically has a memory problem. And one of the other guests is like, she's like, why does my iPad not work? And it's like, you've got to stop downloading revenge films off of Kazaa. Who uses Kazan anymore? The guy's like, I do. Yeah, man.

Caza on Dialup in the year 2002. is all I'm going to say about my internet usage. You had to build your life around it. And my discography's through U-Torrent was my big thing. And my parents yelling at me. Yep. My dad taught me how to do it. My mom taught me how to use Limewire.

My dad taught me how to use U-Toran. I learned how to do it all on my own. And my parents yelled at me the whole way because I tied up the phone line. I had a mixtape hustle going because I was the only one to figure all of it out. Yeah, I could do that too. But yeah, I like didn't. We had dial-up, but it was tied to our,

this is a weird tangent, but I like to talk about the wild west of dial-up internet in the late 90s and early 2000s because my parents were so cheap that they wouldn't buy a separate phone line just for the internet. So they ran it through our home phone line. And we had to disconnect the phone from the wall and buy an extra long phone cable to run from the computer to the wall outlet where the phone was. And I was only allowed 30 minutes a day because it would tie up the phone too much. Which now would be great. Like I don't want anyone calling me about my car insurance or my car warranty. No, but like my dad still doesn't have a cell phone. And like nobody, we didn't, none of us had cell phones back then.

So that was the only way to get a hold of my dad who's a janitor and like was on call. Remember when we had phone numbers memorized? Oh God. I still kind of do. My dad's memorized. Yeah, I know my parents' number and my brother's number. Yeah, I don't know anyone's number. Um, I don't really have anything good to add to fair use other than, um, I like weird Al.

and I think I like to explore the area of satire and parody in fair use. I think it's really interesting because even though parody is allowed, Weird Al is someone who always asks permission. And that's why he never did a Prince song. Yeah. It's because Prince never gave him permission, even though he could still legally do it. Exactly. And I think that's one of the things that's like, you know, are really like, why if Weird Al were ever like a sex freak I would be, I would probably just kill myself. It brings up an interesting point about like, it can still be legal, but like whether or not the creator gets mad at it and how much influence that has on what happens. Yeah.

Like the legality is there, but like whether or not it's good practice. Right. Or kind of the opposite. I think I mentioned this in like the group chat one time, but about, and like, you know, not that I'm like trying to defend our former president or anything. but like when he got the meme from his Twitter taken down that had the nickelback photograph video in it because that was copyright infringement it actually wasn't or like or the rally stuff were like bands like you can't use my yeah springsteen and um there've been a few other bands that have requested that their songs not be played at his rallies but i mean

yeah i have to go through the whole like performance rights licensing people exactly they can't just go like this is copyright infringement you have to stop exactly to actually go through like a whole thing. Mm-hmm. And I think about like, well, I mean, even like leading up to the events on the, on January 6th, like, I remember there was like a lot of commentary about the music being played at like the Stop the Steel rally itself that Trump was hosting. I'm trying to remember what some of the music they were commenting on was like, oh, yeah, people where, um, it was Celine Dion was one of the songs. My heart will go on. These are very into the fact that he's really.

into YMCA. Yeah, yeah. He was really in the village people requested that. He stopped playing that. And then I remember that like, yeah, like basically music sets publicly licensed

to basically be DJed at rallies and stuff. I remember people being like, yeah, can you not play that at just as background music? And I remember like some of the background music was like Celine Dion and stuff. And it was being played over Fox News and stuff while they were interviewing people.

Amazing. Well, I mean, if they took it away, I mean, this isn't very useful. It's not really copyright. It's licensing. Whatever. Right. Yeah. But still licensing kind of falls into that.

Yeah. People actually confuse it a lot, actually, in like trademark law as well. Because a lot of people like, oh, the Coca-Cola logo is copyrighted on its trademarked. But anyway, there's, I mean, it is, but yeah. If they were to like, oh, you, please. these don't let him play my song or whatever, they would actually have to remove them from all of the places that use that same licensing. Yeah.

It's all very automated. Music licensing's weird because it's like, I can't remember the outlets that do it. It's like B something. Yeah. Because it's actually different than like royal, like it's music, anything is so complicated. Yeah, music's very complicated. Yeah, public performance versus. And also mechanical licenses.

which you have to give. Well, and also, like, if you have sheet music versus public, so, like, sheet music, so playing something off of sheet music or sheet music reproduction versus performance versus a recording versus X, Y, and Z. Like, there are so many dimensions to music copyright that are very thorny that I only know some parts of. That's what got me into copyright. It was music copyright.

Yeah. Mine was sheet music copyright because of, I, I think I told the story about an orphan copyright work that we used to play at competitions when I was in high school. That was a ticado. It was a ticata by Tariello. And my piano teacher only had one copy of it because it was no longer in print. And so she just kept making photocopies of it for students to learn off of. I love that.

And then for competition, because you had to have an original. copy for competition, we had a competition copy, which was the original print. And so we would always photocopy our music if there was like, and especially when it comes to additioning with music, especially for arrangements and stuff, because even if a work is technically in public domain, you can have an arrangement that is not because of when it's copyrighted, right? So like, I mean, I don't, I didn't usually run into these things because I played a lot of contemporary and romantic composers, as did most of my other people I played at the studio with. But like, so with the Torrello Takata, we would keep a clean copy for competition judging, right? Because they needed an original copy of the music.

And we would have to photocopy it illegally to learn. I love that. Yeah. And so much sheet music has the do not photocopy thing on it. And it's just the Garfield meme of, huh, wonder who that's for. Yeah, exactly. And it was just labeled music professors. Yeah, because, like, you have to be able to mark it up in order to learn a piece.

Like, that's how you learn is you mark it up. You put it in a little plastic sleeve and you write on it with markers. So you do. Oh, no, we use pencil. Yeah, you just write on it. Yeah. Like, we use pencil and put in a, we three whole punch it in binders. But, you know, we were scrappy.

to my high school choir days here. Just like slightly off-kilter copies, you know, where it would be like just a little tilted. You can tell it's a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy. Y'all, I got binders full of this shit. Binders full of. I got binders full of illegal sheet music. You should have seen the sheet music we had in the Middle Eastern music ensemble when I was in college because most of the folk music and even some of the classical stuff, like a lot of, you know, this is very broad generalization. but a lot of like Middle Eastern music is an oral tradition, especially the folk stuff.

And so there is no sheet music for it. And so you just have someone like transcribe it. And then like the lyrics, they'd write it. But like besides like Library of Congress, there's no real official transliteration of Arabic or Farsi like there is for like Chinese and Japanese. And so the way you transliterate it into like English and like Roman characters is different, but depending on who you're talking to. Wait, can I be an ass for a second and ask which. Chinese dialect? Oh, I don't. I mean

Mandarin. I don't know, but like how there's like the opinion and stuff. How there's like the official like... I was just going to be an ass and be like... Cantonese or Mandarin or another dialect. Yeah. Because Chinese isn't a language. But with Arabic, yeah,

because there's Arabic, but there's also Farsi. But she's the almost the same alphabet. And then I think is it Urdu that also uses a very similar alphabet? I don't know. But yeah, it was a fun time trying to read that. She can use. Fun time. Anyway, fair use. All these links you have in the notes, Justin, one of these I dropped in the chat. I see some interesting things on here about, like, copyright bad. Copyright complicated.

Because I am actually like, for an anarchist, I'm actually quite a fan of copyright. It's just the way that we tend to use it and have it enforced. That is the problem. And I know the concept of like intellectual properties. Rather than saying use, perhaps maybe we should say copyright gets abused. Yeah. Because it's like, its original intention is more for like to protect people who were, you know, sort of pushing like scientific discovery and also just like writing and art and stuff so that they could safely go on and do other things and not have their like livelihood. taken away, you know, like the problem here is capitalism

as always. And then it was like fucking Disney. Fuck Disney. Fuck Disney. I had to go ruin everything. God damn mouse. It was like working fine. Yeah. Well, it's also funny because the United States was a massive pirate nation for a century before we signed on to the burn convention.

Yeah. But. Yeah. So it's like, you know, at its heart and like most of copyright law is actually the exemptions to copyright law. It's like, okay, here's copyright. Here's all the shit that you can do that is technically, like, it limits the copyright of others. Like, a lot of it is for, like, the library and cultural institutions.

Like, the huge chunk of copyright law is the exemptions of it. So most of the copyright law is telling you how to break copyright. I just have to make it keep working. Well, what I always tell faculty at the very beginning of faculty trainings is that I don't like copyright because I'm not the copyright police. a lot of people think like, oh, you're a librarian, you must like respect intellectual property. I'm like, no, I got into this through software piracy. That was my track to learning about copyright was like massive amounts of piracy.

Yeah, I'm always like, no, I think- I'm a fan piracy. Yeah, I'm always like, no, I steal a lot of shit. Please edit that out. But I'm always like, no. I'm going to play orchestral music behind it. Yeah, just like. Blind behind it.

Please. Because we're being cops. Just like. play a lot of horn music Oh hang on Mighty Mighty boss tones that actually Um I mean like

Like Are you You know A bird What is this? Am I in the red Are you in the black Cod right now?

Where we come From the bird Singing a Uffrisy song That gum you like Is back in style Oh, it's scatman John. Is scatman slowed 400%. Yeah, like we didn't even lynch have a hole in right now.

That scene in fucking lost highway where they walk into like the hardcore porn playing and it's just Romstein, just blaring. It's, oh, that's such funny. Did you know, Ramstein aside, did you know that the Ramstein box set that was released about a decade ago, came with like a dildos. Oh. What? They're good boys. God bless them.

Yeah. I have a friend who's like a secret Ramstein had like would not suspect. He's just like a very mild manored Chicago boy. And he's just like, yeah, I really love Romstein. I would listen to them and that Noi Bouton on the days I had during the test. Just like put on Halbermanch. Yeah. So that's a that is a that.

So Eisenzerzendez Neubaten, that is a concert that I missed because of the pandemic. No. Yeah, they were supposed to come to Chicago and me and my friends, me and my noise friends were going to go down and see Eisensterzenda, noibatin. Missed it. Fucking. And I think, it was going to be a good show. But anyway, where are we going? Umph is the superior industrial German band.

Yeah. It's my opinion. I mean, you got your pick of the litter there. Yeah, you do. You really got a wide range of bands to choose from. Croftwerk, I mean, they're not always, but they have a very interesting copyright case. So it's actually similar to the NWA Parliament Funkadelic case that was in the U.S. Oh, please.

Yeah, I had to write paper on it in grad school because we had to write a paper about a copyright case we disagreed with. And I did the, it's not Bridgeport. It's the something dimensions ink that it's, you know, on behalf of. of Parliament Funkadelic versus N.W.A for one of their songs that sampled a two-second baseline or something and N.W.A. lost

which got rid of the de minimis defense. And I was like, you know, this is a bad, bad look. And there's a similar case involving Kraftwerk and in Germany because like international copyright law is like a, who it's a doozy. But yeah, I was like kind of the same exact thing happened where Kraftwerk sued someone

for using I think it was like not the other way metal on metal Oh is it okay Yeah it's been a few years For 19c yeah I was like Craftwork don't do this to me Yeah from Trans Europe Express

And they sued Sabrina Settler For her song Nourmere Which Only me Yeah I don't speak German

I took two years I took two years I I do Spanish. Yeah. Public Enemy has a good song that I always want to put in my copyright presentations, but I don't think I can get away with it. But yeah, Cot, can I get a witness?

It's just all about how you can't copyright a beat. Oh, nice. I think it was a response to the NWA case. Probably that would make sense. So my favorite music copyright case is when Radiohead settled out of court, when the Hollies sued them for stealing the chord progression from the air that I breathe because it's very similar to the chord progression in creep. But you can't, it's a court progression.

Exactly. That you can't copyright a court progression. And that's the problem with the blurred lines case. Exactly. The blurred lines case is. It's a very bad case. The blurred lines Marvin Gaye one, that's one that even though like, and I think that's, I think that's, this is where we can really dig deep.

into like the music copyright stuff is that like because it was like you know unintentionally inspired by a Marvin gay song like that was such bullshit like even though what's his nuts fucking sucks yeah it's like he shouldn't have lost that case there's no just because he sucks doesn't mean he should have lost and I think this is where like the law shouldn't be weighing in on what is or isn't creative. Yes. Yeah, especially because like, especially with art and music.

Because with like with other things, it's a little, I wouldn't say it's always clear cut, but it's easier, especially for non-professionals in the area. Yeah. For textual based stuff. Yeah, with like art.

Especially, you remember like the guy who did the art where he's like, he took pictures of, I think of like indigenous people in Australia, but I might be wrong, and then put like guitars and stuff on them. imagine if he got sued for that and like would a judge know what to do with that

because that's totally fair use no he did get sued did he get sued and settled out of the course no well the thing was they weren't his photos right he didn't take the photos and then he yeah and then he put the guitars on them yeah he said the value in the market comes from my signature being on it

and that's why it's not impacting the market because this person could never have sold them for millions of dollars to rich for idiots Oh, my God. But yeah, it's like with music especially, because there are so many, like, factors to music, it's like they always have to have some sort of professional come in to be the person to weigh in on it. But, yeah, music, it's sort of always like a crapshoot depending on what judge you get. That's why I somehow end up following a lot of lawyers on Twitter. I really didn't do that on purpose, but usually it's like copyright lawyers.

and they're talking about like the Google versus Oracle case. And I just put like the Alien versus Predator poster. It's like whoever wins, we lose. And they're like, I don't think that's actually the case. I'm like, no, every case is potential precedent. Like you could get a really fucked ruling that will just be a pain in the ass for everyone. Yeah, like no case is just the case itself. It's always, well, how is this going to affect some case 20 years from now?

Yeah, it would be better if the blurred lines case had just been thrown out and the judge said, deal with this yourself. This is a creative dispute. Another thing from the EFF report is apparently in January of last year, NYU Law School posted a video of a panel about the blurred lines case. And it was moderated. It featured the music experts from opposite sides of the lawsuit. So music experts who weighed on opposite sides.

And the whole point of the panel was to show how experts analyze songs. for copyright and YouTube flagged it. Yep. But I see a lot of people laugh at and that I'm actually like, actually. But a lot of videos of performances of 433 are flagged on YouTube. I did get flagged. Yeah.

And a lot of people like, this is a song that doesn't have any music. I'm like, well, actually, the whole point of 433 is to make you re-contextualize what noise is happening into music. And so it's different every time. So technically, every performance of 433, is a unique thing. So technically, yeah. But yeah, a lot of people...

What if you have to get a mechanical license for 433? Yeah. To perform it luggage. Yeah. But yeah, so like a lot of people are like, well, how is this can be a DMCA take down if there's not actually any creative thing, copyrightable thing happening here? And it's like, ooh, is the performance what's copyrightable? Yeah, someone must have had to tag it because if it was just listening for every video

that had silence in it, it would It would laugh everything. So someone must have reported it. Yeah. So I always find those interesting. Because people like to laugh at 433. I'm like, actually, I, you know, John Cage is good, actually. John Cage is good aside from 433, and that's my unpopular opinion for the day.

I like that him and Merce Cunningham were a thing. Because I like Merce Cunningham as a choreographer. Yes. Yeah. And they like, he really wrote music for Merces. I just, I really. hate that like 433 is John Cage's most popular thing just because it was like a lot of better shit. Yeah, he has way better shit.

Yeah, I really liked his folk punk phase. Who doesn't? Exactly, who doesn't? Yeah, I'm just like that annoying new music person. I don't know. Like all the music I listen to now is just sad women with guitars and just talking about. Actually, like I was someone, he was Carolyn Pendleton. posted a playlist that was like um what is it period rock and it was like sad women with

guitar no it was sad women with guitars from the 90s it was like Paula Cole and Joan Osborne and Sophie B Hawkins it was so perfect see I just listen to like dark wave and then like I'll get in a shower and like put on floodland and then when I'm like feeling myself I'll like put on some opera and that's like all I do these days. Yeah. I've been putting my iTunes on shuffle. I got a really big iTunes library, so I just shuffle it around. That's what I've been doing.

Yeah, it's been fun. That's dangerous to do during sex. Because then you get the Power Rangers theme right at the... That's like you may go dedicated... Victory theme. Like, you got to do it. Yeah, you need to have... Like, I have one called Sexual Congress,

and that's my Fuck Jam's playlist, which, you know, not having sex these days. but a girl can dream. You gotta be ready. Sex, ooh, playlist. And then I'm like, I need to make a fuck. I just put on the X-Files on us. I just like put on like new repurpion.

It just turns out that Carrie was in the Bloodhound gang and wrote that line that you could fuck while you watch X-Files. Actually, I'm Siskel and I'm Ebert and I give you two thumbs up. That's the line I wrote. It was a cultural reset. So good. I loved that song I did too I like did dances at sleepovers to that song was how much I loved that song

I good I approve what is what is the fair use on doing dances at sleepovers to songs because fucking mombo number five how many no I never did that because like I was like a kindergartner first grader when that song came out and in my newsflash I used to be a lady person and I remember I felt cool because my name was in the momo number five list and so I was like oh I'm cool because my name's in the mom number five thing and like I went over to sleepover and like the girl who's sleepover was and like her mom choreographed dance to it and did it for all of that. And that's copyrightable. I'm like well my name's in hers isn't.

I would have never shown up to that person's house again. If someone's mom was like a very lonely abused child and then wanted to like have a friend. Yeah, I'm sorry You went through that If someone else was like, you're going to learn a dance I would have been like, fuck you, I'm going home I want to play with the limits of space and time at this sleepover

And you're not Like, I don't want mom intervention. Mom stay upstairs Yeah That's sleepover Yeah, I was like Like, okay So I was like a good kid at school

but a bad kid all other times. They could be your angle or your devil. Are we hanging it with a bad kid? Yeah, I was secret bad kid. So, yeah, when people invited me over for sleepovers, that's when they found out I was a bad kid who stayed up all night and wanted to sneak out of the house and shit. You break out the cloves and the black and milds.

Yeah, oh yeah, for sure. The best joke South Park ever did was when they had the goth kid tell Cartman how to dance. and it's like you like, you know, Bob back and forth looking sad. And then like every other like Bob you like take a drag off your clove or something. I'm like, yep, that's how you dance in a goth clothes. That's how the goths do. That's how the gots do.

But yeah, I was the kid who was like showing up with Bloodhound gang CDs and sneaking out of the house and staying up all night. Yeah, I didn't really start smoking and drinking until I was 18. I drank a little bit. when I was 17. Yeah, I didn't really drink either. I think it's because my whole, like my mom's whole family was alcoholics, though, so. I never really had the desire to. Now I have wine with me right now.

I just stole things, like intellectual property. I was a good eating shoes, except, yeah, no, like I was poor. And so my dad taught me how to use like BitTorrent and U-Torrent and just torrent things. For, um, so that I could get movies and music. Um, do you want to tie this back to libraries? Please. Me and my mom were fiends for going to the library CD section and ripping that shit the fuck up. I did that when I worked in the music library and undergrine.

Yeah. Half of my most of my music library. My mom and I were doing that like as soon as the library had CDs. I didn't realize that was illegal when I was doing it. I was just like, no. No. I was just like, do you. I'm going to check out this Diamandigalas CD and then written to my laptop.

we had we had two VCRs we were ripping we were ripping videotapes from the library to other videotapes well now and now you have like DRM and so now we don't actually own anything we license it basically as we follow the rules which fun fact to bring it back to EFF um the archive of our own people organization for Transformer Works worked with EFF um to have it so if you're doing like fan vids and whatnot, you can legally remove the DRM from a DVD or something in order to use that footage in your fan video because it's a transformative use. Because normally it's illegal to remove DRM from stuff. So I was like, that's the problem with, yeah, that's the problem with DMCA is it doesn't

matter if you're doing a fair use. And I have to explain this to faculty as well. It doesn't matter if it's a fair use. It matters that you broke the encryption because of the anti-circumvention provision. And then now people use DMCA takedowns in really bad faith as like to like intimidation. Yeah, it's terrible. That happened to my friend actually, not just like the Lindsay Ellis thing, but that happened to my friend because she like messaged me and be like, hey, am I actually breaking copyright law? I got a DMCA take down for this like cross-stitch pattern I put up on Etsy because this like other creator was saying that I infringed on their design because my friend was making like little cross-stitch patterns of like, because she's a, of like, because she's a, of.

queer chemist. And so she was doing like the periodic table of elements but like, you know, Bismith is by, right? And so like doing that. Yeah. Yeah. Like that shit's not a new. No.

And this person, uh, gave a DMCA take down, um, because they came up with like the queer periodic table. Etsy store or something. And then I like went through this person. Oh, eat my ass over. I was like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I was like, you're fine. Natalie. I promise. Yeah. Also, you can't copyright. an idea. Exactly. You can't copyright an idea and like they didn't have the same designs and stuff.

There's only so many ways you could do a pride flag on a like square with some letters in it. Yeah. Eat my ass on that bullying nonsense. Yeah. If there's no minimum creativity in the work as well, you can't copyright it. So the person might not even have copyright over the. Right. And it's like with copyright enforcement now, so much of it is just intimidation thing.

like I'm just like convinced all of the stuff that like libraries do because we're overly cautious because we don't want to get sued because we're on the money. I don't want to like make waves. Like all of the percentage shit. Um, all of like the DMCA takedowns. Like all that stuff. It's like copyright at this point is only meant to bully and to make sure people like don't actually use their fair use rights. Like because that's what they're there for is to like, oh hey, we can actually do shit with this. Um, and then there's all these like,

yeah, no, I just, that's like all I see copyright use for now is sort of bad faith, intimidation, and bullying. And it's also very hard to get an exemption from the DMCA if you're not like a cultural heritage institution. So if you're doing something yourself, it's going to be, you really can't do it. But so much, so many licensing things are just so absolutely crazy. Like I had a, I was working on, transforming a theater class. And so they needed productions of stage plays. And so those aren't, you know, those are pretty few and far between. Yeah.

A lot of them are completely impossible to get. So I was trying to get the war horse that the national theater did. And the only place that was that even claimed it might have the DVD was in Pakistan. They did not accept any electronic forms of payment. So the DVD was out. And so I went to their streaming and they said, we don't stream. outside of the UK. So you can't even buy it. So there's no effect on the market. But, you know, and I had to pay a hundred and two, the library had to pay $120 for,

for a Sondheim DVD production of company because that was the only way we could get it. And then we had to use fair use and the Teach Act, which is something I would have gone into more if Kyle was here. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on a second. I mean, couldn't these problems just be solved if like faculty just didn't want things? Well, yeah. But this was the theater course. And it was like a production design course. I mean, it was like a conference.

Can you just choose something different, like less hard? Yeah, well, all customers. It's like it's customer service is best when there are no customers, right? I'm sorry, I'm not going to eat your ass for this one. I actually, there was like a really cool presentation I went to at a conference. I don't remember which one. I've slept since then. Of this university that talked to.

about like what do you do when the only copy of something that you can find because you can't buy it anywhere is a pirated copy online and that's the only version you can find anywhere and it's like you need it for a course or something it's like what do you do ethically and copyrightably legal it's like well I can't get it anywhere else so technically and so what they did is they would like download them like group them and then like put them on like a protected server just for the classes but they were like you know if people get mad they get mad but what else are we supposed to do? And then I went to the, because I did a project with some,

my emerging leaders project was with the American Indian Library Association. And we presented our poster at like the tribal college librarians Institute. And one of the presenters there was the librarian at the college that was nearest to, I can't remember the name of the college, nearest to where the like Dakota Access Pipeline protests were happening and that was like one of the closest buildings with internet yes

one of the closest buildings to that and so what he did and like all had like the librarians do they would collect posters and stuff but also they would scour the internet for all the memes and stuff

and save those like digital as like a way of preserving this moment and he's like there's no way to find out who originally made this you know photo thing or this meme So technically, like, am I allowed to put this on this presentation? I don't care. This needs to be shown.

And if someone wants to sue me, they can sue me. But for right now, it's like, who's going to? So he's like, no one's going to sue me for this. And it's like, I can't find who the original person was. And this is important. So I'm just going to show it. And I was like, good for you, dude. And I just thought it was like an interesting thing of like, you know, instead of erring

on the side of caution, erring on the side of who's going to get mad. what can you do about it? Enforcement is the whole of the law. I got a question in my faculty copyright because I was using some interactive stuff. And it said, how do I avoid going to prison? I said, the easiest way is don't get caught. And I tell faculty, like, if you're going to break copyright, just don't tell me about it. Like, I don't even know.

I'm not the police. Librarians aren't copyright. Yeah. I'll be like, yes, give your students the PDF so they don't have to buy shit. Do it. I don't care. But, you know, I can't leave it. Well, I just, yeah, well, I say if you're going to do it, don't tell me.

Yeah, I don't know. And the thing is, I was in a fair use week. I think this was the same one. It was the game show on. And they were asking if it's fair use. And I said, well, you know, I work for Texas. And so technically, I would have sovereign immunity. And they're like, no, you have qualified immunity because you're an employee.

And I'm like, oh, that's the shit cops get so they can kill people. Like, that's awesome. So I can just like, I can get like, I can be like a. Only good cop shit. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say something else, but I forgot. Maybe I'll remember.

Who knows? Not me. All this, you know, too, will be lost in time, like tears in the rain. Like, tears and rain. I've seen memes you couldn't believe. Oh, no, I remember. It was based on your theater thing. So at the music library, I worked out in undergrad.

We actually had a lot of laser discs because that would be like the only format, some operas. had ever been published on like live performances. And so we had to like rip the operas from the laser discs and like put them on like a protected like Google drive that like you couldn't download it from like you only had like view privileges. And then like that is what we would give to classes so that they couldn't download it and only the people in like and not just a link like you had to invite people to it. because there was literally no other way to get that recorded live performance of that opera. Yeah, theater is the fucking worst in terms of making stuff accessible. Yeah, it's like you kind of just have to fuck around with it. Yeah.

And I think stable archiving is, you know, one of those other problems that you'll see a lot with fair use questions and also with copyright questions that I've, and I think this is where I guess my background comes in because this is how I, I learned about copyright was through archives, which I don't do now, but that's where I received my education in, was in audiovisual archiving. So that's how I know most of what I know about fair use in archiving. And so making preservation copies is like a big part of that. And so like, what do you do with outdated media? Yeah. And things like that. So like when I when I did work in an audio visual archive or when I did work in a well it was an audio visual archive and I one of the first collections I worked on there was a collection that had been transferred from umatic tapes um which are big smelly yeah oh yeah yeah yeah but it was a public access television show

oh nice yeah uh called what was I can't remember what it was called but it was this lady named WFMU no if only um no it was it was like a television show um um um dedicated to like local jazz and it was like it was being the 80s and it's this lady named Ruth and she was like an old jazz singer and anyway it was like we had just transferred everything from from umatic tapes to DVDs and so I did all the finding aids from anyway but like we had to make the DVDs to be preservation copies because we didn't have technology to play the umatic tapes even though the umatic tapes were a more stable archival format so like you get into those kinds of issues with copyright and preservation right so like you almost kind of have to

constantly evolve your format to some extent for playability so that was like one of the big issues that we ran into with audiovisual archiving is that playability is a major problem and I mean these were never used in classes or anything, but it was like something that money was there for and the family had given money to to make these tapes or make these tapes transferred to DVD so that. And I think that the archive also owed copyright to them. That was the other factor that was at play. But it was, it was a thing, you know, so. The joke that I was going to make was not WF, UHF. Oh, UHF. UHF. That's what it is. We got it all. Another weird Ler reference. Yeah, my acronym.

We got it all on, UHF. Yeah, it was no Conan the librarian, but it was along the lines of the wonderful world of phlegm. I kind of want to stir shit and be like, let me simp for the Internet Archive for, I would gladly simp for the Internet Archive because they have porn on there. Hell yeah, good for them.

No, I'm like such a, like fuck the police about this lawsuit that they're in. I'm like, authors are cops now. I'm like every single author who, like, Neil Gaiman, I'm like, I hate you now. I think Neil Gaiman has been a cop. Yeah. Like, he's one of my favorite authors. I don't think he's that good. I like his short stories a lot.

He's fine. And like Sandman is good. No, Sandman's a fucking rip off. I mean, yeah, is the point. Anyway. He should be sued. for that anyway. Yeah, but or no, it's not Sandman Star D'Dust.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I like the movie because Robert De Niro is like a gay pirate named Captain Shakespeare and that was very important to impressionable young me. Yeah, that's not in the book. No, because I've read the book. I was like,

where's fucking gay Robert De Niro? It was really disappointing when I read the book. There is no character in that book called Gay Robert De Niro, unfortunately. There should be. more books with a character named gay Robert De Niro in it. He's like, he could do Taxi Driver and then go be gay Robert, you know, gay pirates in Stardust. Can I just say that I am so horned for Robert De Niro and Taxi Driver?

Right. The movie changed my life. I had never seen it before until like a few months ago. And I was like, oh, I get it now. Oh, my God. No, I like, that was another movie I was obsessed with in college. I also love Sybil Shepard in that movie. Oh, gosh, he's great.

Yeah. I'm in love with him. her in that movie too. Yeah, so where do we all stand on the internet archive? Anyway, yeah, fuck Neil Gaiman, internet archive simping because they have porn and also they have really good old medical texts on there. They also, I was retweeting some stuff earlier. They have like all these like old like vinyl record LPs on there and like there's even like some like weird of your radio station that just plays them all. Yes. Yeah. I think I think I will simp for internet. I know some of the people involved with it are problematic. I'm not here for them, but I, I, I, I overall

support the project of what the internet archive aims to be. Especially the way back machine is like crucial in law, actually. Yeah. But yeah, like, when people were getting so mad about the like, controlled digital lending, because like normally publishers hate it anyway, but it's like, well, only one person's getting it's fine. And I'm like, well, no, technically the licenses work differently in academic libraries than the new public libraries because I can buy something that has unlimited uses and you can download it but whatever apparently people think that only things work with they do in public libraries but what do I know um but also it's like well you didn't buy the license for this at all it's bad um and it's like with the control digital

lending with them making it so more than one person could use one copy at a time I'm like well the only reason we have that rule is because you cannot give one physical item to more than one person at a time. And so, like, literally we just had that rule because, like, physically you can't check out the same physical one item to, like, two people at the same time. But when you remove that in a digital context, then what's the fucking problem? It's still, like, DRM, like, it'll stop working after two weeks. Like, I guess I don't get it.

Now, there are other countries I know in England and in Canada authors actually do get royalties used based on library circulation. But wouldn't that still count as circulation for the Internet Archive? That's a library. Probably in Canada. Yeah, because I mean, they bought a copy of the book, but I'm like, does it necessarily be every copy they buy or does it have to be we have your work in here and it's circulated?

It's based on circulation, I think. Yeah, but like is it like if the Internet Archive didn't buy the books if they were like donated or whatever, if they didn't get it through a license, would that still count? Yeah, I don't know how it works in Canada. Yeah. I don't know. That's why there needs to be some sort of digital, right of digital for sale, right? Yes.

Like, that's the whole fucking, like, that's what libraries work is for sale. Exactly. That's the whole basis. And I've actually, I actually had to have this discussion a couple of times on, on, like, class discussion boards, because people often assumed that fair use was why public libraries could just, you know, do what they do and check out materials and stuff. They're like, oh, yeah, it's fair use. And I'm like, it's actually not at all what fair use is. And it's the right of, you know, the right of first sale.

We couldn't have used bookstores with that right of first sale. Exactly. Exactly. And yeah, no. Yeah, it's the principle of exhaustion. So if you sell something, you can't control it afterwards. Right. And so it's, they're not, I don't know, like all the authors that were like weaponizing, like,

oh, well, you're taking money away from like authors of color who don't have money. and then I see all of these authors of color being like I'm an anarchist please steal my books on Twitter being like don't use me as a scapego like I am mad at the internet archive for the CDL case because like we said before because they did something stupid and they're insisting that this is controlled digital lending which is not sorry sorry sorry can you clarify that acronym because in my mind a CDL is a commercial driver's license yeah uh control digital lending because for the National Emergency Library because their normal model is

they treat the digital copy as a physical copy kind of where it's like they, because they own Anne physical version of this book, they have an digital version and that gets lent out to an person at a time for like two weeks, I think it is.

And then it's, you know, return, it stops working on that person's computer using like the Adobe editions or whatever. Yeah, Adobe digital editions. Yeah, and then the National Emergency Library removed the number that could be checked out at a time. It still had the two-week limit, but there was no limit to how many people could have it out at a time

because we were in a fucking pandemic and libraries were closed. Yeah, but the thing that annoys me is information because... Am I muted? Or I lost... My voice mod probably just freaked out because I just got a thing that said I was out. But anyway, they're basically spreading disinformation because they're saying this is controlled digital lending and people are like parroting that to me on Twitter now.

And I'm like, no, control digital lending is not just that it's controlled. It's controlled in a one single specific way. So yes, it is still controlled, but it's not controlled digital lending. Right. And the reason this annoys me so much is they did something basically kind of stupid because they're insisting on calling it CDL. And like we said earlier, you never know how a court case. is going to turn out. This could ruin

control digital lending for everyone else just because they made a hasty decision, which was made for good reasons, but like, if you they weren't wrong, but like you know, copyright already sucks enough. If we get a bad ruling on this,

it will suck more. The main criticism I've seen from it from other copyright people whose opinions I tend to agree with is that like what they did wasn't wrong, but that because it, most people would view it as wrong and it's The fact that it got it into court is dangerous. Right.

That is the danger. Oh, I see. Yeah. They took it too far. I haven't been following this very much, even though I like know what you guys are talking about in general. But like is part of it that if they're not actually doing controlled digital lending, but it's gotten a bunch of media thing, this is what everybody's going to think

controlled digital lending is instead of what it actually is. Yeah. But that's just annoying. it's not dangerous. If they lose the case. If they lose, it's dangerous. And if you get a weird ruling. But I mean, I'm just annoyed that people now are conflating controlled digital lending with any type of control, which is like...

See, I didn't know there was a difference. I learned something today, the more you know, because I'm not scholarly communications librarian. Like, I'm like, yeah, copyright law. And I knew that like, you know, the control digital lending thing was like, oh, you know, it's like overdrive books or whatever, like one digital copy per person. But I thought that was just like the rule that we, you know, I didn't know it was like a specific system. Yeah, it's it's it's it was hammered out by like a lot of legal scholars and that's why people were feeling confident to do it. So now if I want to do CDL at my university, like there's pending litigation. Like I, you know, I might not be able to make any progress on this, which is really annoying to me now because like I would like to do control digital lending for like rare books and special collections.

Things that like won't circulate anyway because they'll sit in special collections. so we can just loan out as many digital copies as we, you know, one at a time, but we can loan them out indefinitely with nowhere and tear. People don't have to come to the library, which is great during COVID. And like, it's hard to implement, but like, you know, because you've got to put the DRM on it. You've got to set up the permissions. I've seen people do it now. But also the annoying, the thing that keeps annoying me about the Internet Archive is the guy who's like ahead of the open library keeps showing up in all the CDL meetings to like say, by the way, we're still being sued. It's really unfair to us.

And it's like, I'm not here to listen to you, like, convince me about this anymore. Like, I came to this meeting because someone's going to show how to do CDL in Alma. Like, that's why I'm in this meeting. I don't need you to, like, talk 20 minutes every fucking meeting about how, like, you're being sued and it's very mean. Yeah. I'm just personally annoyed as well about this. Yeah. It's more of an annoyal annoyance thing. But, yeah, also, the thing of this lawsuit has taught me, because it made me research more into the Google

books, Hottie Trust, as well as the Google, or no, the Authors Guild, Hottie Trust, and Authors Guild Google Books. And basically the Authors Guild are just cops. Like, I was like, oh, they just hate everything. Because like, it made me realize that authors don't know shit about copyright. And that when they say we love libraries, they don't actually know what they're talking about either. They have this very narrow, it's like, you know, have one as a keynote speaker and we'll see. Oh, yeah. But it's like, author or like it's sort of like because they work in this certain realm I think they know what it means it's like no you don't actually the biggest cops to the association of american publishers like i tend to view the authors gild a little better uh Maria Palante come at me you embezzled millions of dollars from the copyright office fuck you I'm I've been trying to start this beef with Maria Palante for years I've like published yeah like one of my ACRL chapters yeah are you throwing down a gauntlet right now are you

challenging Maria Palante to a duel. Are you throwing down like four years ago when I published a chapter saying she sucks. Do you buy your thumb at me, sir? Justin, do you demand satisfaction? I demand attention. I guess it's a good point, though. It's like when we do litigation and when we do things, it's like kind of goes back to the music thing earlier where it's like, it's never about that one case. It's always about the precedent that it's setting up.

Yeah. So it's like when you were going to do something risky, even though he's like, yeah, I know I'm right. You know, if you, you know, are fucking up what language you're using. Still, the thing you're doing is fine. But it's like, do you have to think about, like, is it sort of the thing where it's like, we know this will make us look bad or have bad repercussions so we shouldn't do it? Kind of thing. Like, is that a thing we have to focus on primarily now instead of the actual thing we're doing?

I think if you're a big organization, like, Internet Archive, you should be aware of that because you're a big target. Yeah. Whereas, like, if, you know, if I was doing controlled digital lending and turned off the one limit thing. Like, no one would notice that my university was doing that.

But, like, your university would probably get mad at you because they don't want to get sued. And so, like, a lot of universities

are very conservative. Well, they don't understand copyright. The universities don't have a lot of money to get sued with. Exactly. Unless you have it. And even they don't,

they don't like the publicity of getting sued. I wrote my university's copyright policy. That's how unqualified everyone at this university is about copyright. I don't have a JD.

It's like all of the librarian. in my university like we're all like fuck the police about copyright and are like very like I actually work as political people but it's like the main like legal people

at the upper levels of the university that have the very conservative view because like we were for like especially pandemic stuff we were wanting to do a lot more like with like horse reserves and whatnot and like lending out of books and stuff just to make it safer we were all like well safely we could do it this way this way this way

but you know do people who don't actually no copyright law or who are very conservative about it, got to interpret this as infringement. And it's like we were like pretty pleased at the legal council or whatever. And they were like, no. Even though we're like, but we know we're right. They were just like, uh-uh. Yeah, I'm so glad I don't have to worry about that shit.

Like, um. I'm not even like in the Skull Kong area. Yeah. I'm a lonely meditated librarian. Yeah. I completely do not have to worry about that shit. it and I'm so relieved. I mean, every now and then I get questions about

video and I'm like, yeah, sorry, you can't you cannot show a full DVD in your class. Like, no, you can't show murder ball to your class. I'm sorry. Like, I do a lot on like adaptive, um, like, you know, uh, like, uh, like, I have a lot of like,

uh, I don't know how to phrase this. I work with like, uh, mobility and like, adaptive mobility usage anyway and murder ball is like a great film about how adaptive mobility usage works anyway and so I get requests to show murder ball and I'm like yeah we don't have murder ball streaming and you cannot show that online and that's that's that's that's the end of the conversation I'm like you got to find something else I'm you can but it's a pain in the ass yeah exactly one thing I ran into kind of related to like oh can you stream this or whatever or not um is when I was making the like public performance, like, when I worked at Utah, I made this like public performance rights, like, guide because a lot of like students and teachers are like, well, can I, do I have to like pay or do something to show this in my class?

It's like, no, actually a lot of the DVDs we buy, we buy with the rights. But on the guide, it was sort of like, when does it stop being some friends hanging out watching a movie together and turn into a screening without permission? mission, right? Like, what's the number? And we like, try looking everywhere and there's not really a number. No. And I think it's intention. It's your immediate family, basically. Yeah, it's like, ours is like the one text we could find about it was like eight's pushing it. But the good thing about face instruction is it's actually carved out in the copyright law. So like face-to-face, yeah, yeah, you can show it. And then because of the teach act, you can do a. equivalent face-to-face stuff online.

But again, like, this is why we don't digitize DVDs. I still do it for faculty, but I've got a hard copy the subtitles in for accessibility. And then I've got to sit there while it burns, which takes like 30 minutes to get a good, a decent burn out of it. And then I've got to tell them to put it in Blackboard and make sure it's not just in Blackboard, it's also in Panopto with these settings. So it's just a pain in the ass. You can do it, but like it would be easier just to,

like stream it through Zoom, but I think also most faculty aren't technically capable enough to do that. Yeah, they don't know how to wire the audio instead of it just coming out of the laptop speakers. It's complicated. And I, we actually have like a media and reserves library and who's actually really good at this stuff. So I actually just defer most of our questions to her because she's pretty excellent at this stuff. So that's the nice thing about my job is we have really capable of people who actually I can defer these questions to. So like when people ask me, can I show murderball in my class, I can say, talk to this person. They can perhaps help you. Like, it's going to be hard. But we might. But being that person is also, I do wish sometimes other librarians my library would learn about copyright. Yeah, because it's like we can't function as libraries without copyright.

So it always boggles my mind that most librarians don't have like at least a basic understanding. Because without the basic of at least fair use or something, that's how we get to like, well, 10%, 30%, I'm like, show me in the law where it says that. Yeah, there's no hard and fast rule There's not, and so it's like I wish more people had like, like, copyright is, well, now that I work in like digital

collections, I wasn't planning on it, but now that I do it's like copyright's a little more relevant to me, but I still just do the metadata, right? Like, I'm not the person, I'm like, please put this right statement.org URI in the, this, and then that's all I need you to do. But I don't control what content it is, right?

But I still took a copyright in college when I was interested in it but it's like libraries don't work without the first sale doctrine like half the shit that can happen in art or anything can't happen without for use um I'm like it should be I should know a little bit about this probably and so now half the time it's like in my small library it's like we have our skullcom librarian who knows and then like I know I'm not even like in her division but it's like oh I know copyright things and like we just did the like copyright first responders little cohort together and it was like great and it's like I'm a metadata person but like because I know copyright enough to be dangerous about it it like I don't know I feel like I can like actually have these discussions that relate to my job it aren't directly my job and also as faculty like I have a liaison anyway um like my I'm a liaison to music and so everyone

once in a while I'll get like interesting questions. And like the like my department like rep is like I feel bad asking you to buy books because don't you just have to like rent them every year? I'm like, oh, you care. Oh, we're going to use you. I love you. And we're like, no, actually most of the individual ones you request, we just buy and then we own. But you know, but a lot of this stuff, there is.

Yes, we have to pay for that every year. You should get very mad at it and yell at the, you know, your department for making you have certain things for a promotion and tenure and then yell at all of these like publishers and stuff stand behind us help us I've gotten a department to to send a letter to a publisher oh fuck yeah whoa I'm not gonna get music to do that the music folk they they seem open to it yeah well basically they weren't licensing to the library to so we couldn't purchase any e-books and we kept getting requests once COVID hit for e-books for stuff that had been on traditional course reserve And so I said, well, they're just not, we have money set aside for this.

We have a fund called the textbook affordability fund. But like, they don't sell to us. We can't do anything about it. And so, yeah, the whole department ended up getting together and sending them a letter. And then I talked to their rep. And I've also talked to McRaw Hills people. Nice. Because they sent me, they like cold called me.

You know how like a vendor just bugs you? And I was like, actually, I have, I have questions. for you. I would like to talk to your library licensing people. And yeah, I did. That reminds me. Our library is part of a consortia of across Washington State for Overdrive. And I think, I forget which publisher was. I want to say Blackthorn, but they do audiobooks. But they pretty much said they're not going to sell audiobooks to libraries for like the first like two months. What the hell? Or something like that.

This happened like a year ago. Where are they getting all that money that they can afford to do that? Right. Well, yeah. And but our consortia boycotted them for six months. We were like, well, you won't sell it to us for two months. So we're going to wait a full six months before, you know, kind of thing. And I wish more people would do shit like that.

Like, you want to get me started on e-books. We could do a whole episode on that. Especially from the public library perspective with deals like overdrive and stuff, those are like not good deals. Oh, my God. The DRM on that stuff is really, like, it's really nuts. I look at the license, like, I'm always like, you know, but like when I look at the licenses that we have for academic stuff, I'm like, I can just fucking download this book and keep

it forever. Yeah, because the academic licenses, like, we pay for an unlimited, like, for a lot of what we do, we try to pay for an unlimited license or we pay for a package or whatever, and that's kind of set it and forget it. But with a public package like overdrive, which I think our university might be, you can edit this out, but I know that's something my university is potentially looking into right now as like a deal that we have through our system. That's something that scares me because I know what public libraries are being put through with overdraft. and it's not cool.

I think that's why public, like, I tended to see public librarians being against what the Internet Archive was doing and academic librarians being like simping for it. Like it seemed like when I saw like the librarians going on the other side, it tended to be public librarians that were anti the National Emergency Library. I think it's just because the licensing models that were exposed to are so vastly different. Oh, yeah. No, on the other side of that, like you can look at other products. like streaming media, like say Canopy. Yeah, New York Public Library had to get rid of it because it costs them too much money. Well, and my mom, my mom has access to the Kansas City Public Library and they have a token system

because they don't have to pay for academic performance rights, which Canopy is bleeding academic libraries dry. Yeah. But they can set up different kinds of systems because they don't have to pay for academic performance rights for public libraries, right? So they set up different purchasing systems for public libraries than I have for academic libraries. It's nuts.

Yeah, because like, can't you do like there's like the DDA version of Canopy? You can also put a cap on it. Yeah, there's like a few different subscription models. That's what we have set up. We have a cap system set up right now. Like it's, we have a really complicated system with canopy setup. And the sad thing is, is like, it's super popular with public library patrons. Oh, it is.

My mom. We have people actually asking us to get canopy all of the time. And it's like, we're at this tiny rural system in the middle of nowhere. There's no way. Where, like, and that's part of the reason why we're part of this, like, overdrive, like, Washington State Consortia is because it's like, there was no way in hell that we were going to be able to afford, you know, a decent ebook collection with our tiny little rural budget. So are you part of the Orbis Cascade? No Washington Anytime Library. Okay, because I was about to totally like like worship you because, uh, your documentation for

prima. Oh, no. Yeah, Orbis Cascades legit. I knew someone who came out of Orbis. Oh, shout out. Who was at, um, you and I and is now at Clemson. Shout out. But, uh, it wasn't just Blackthorn audio.

McMillan also did this with their digital, with their eweller. books. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. McMillan. Fuck, McMillan. I was so mad about that. Yeah. And I think they do a lot of like very popular romance titles, right? Wasn't that the big thing that they were worried about? And like who else? What do you else do you use overdrive for? Right. That's all you get is smut. Yeah.

I listen to audio books. Are for porn. Yeah. I listen to audio books when I have migraines. Like I own like hundreds of porny novels in this phone could be books. I just watch porn. I mean, I do that too. Sometimes you want to read it, you know? I don't, but anyway.

That was the struggle during the blackout. I remember telling you guys about this is I really should invest in some analog pornography because like... Yeah. Go buy some old magazines. Yeah, I should go check some empty logs. Isn't that what the Internet Archive is for? Carrie, isn't that what you said? Yes, the Internet Archive is great for porn.

rewrite that Avenue Q song Instead of internet as for points The internet archive is for porn Yeah I could go get like archived versions of Megabobs and whatever Yeah Jugs magazine

Wasn't it Um The Carrie you might know about this too Because like Hugh Hefner went to UYC Yes My grandpa was there at the same time as him

Right and he like donated all the shit And they like refused to do anything with it No they have all of it in the special collections there Oh, okay, because I remember there was something about, like, they had all this, like, gay porn, too, that they would, didn't. Oh, yes. Special collections are full of gay porn. Yeah, no, so I did my, like, graduate practicum at the Gerber Hart Library and Archives in Chicago in Rogers Park,

which it's like down the row from the leather archives and museum. Yeah, I love the leather archives. Oh, so good. But they're, like, a little, like, queer, all donation, all volunteer, like, grant funded. library and like their entire collection is is queer stuff and their archives and their special collections is so good and they have this entire just like horn section and it's like glorious in the back um I do it and then I got to like catalog like some softcore DVDs every once in a while like we should do an episode on that too I did a presentation about it at OLAQ

you about I found a lot so I did a whole I did a whole I did a um So, like, completely unrelated to what I do now. My MLS concentration is in rare books and manuscript studies. Completely irrelevant to my life now. But I did an exhibit catalog on LGBT comics. And so I combed all of UIUC's collections. And I found a lot of very explicit gay comics. Nice.

So yeah, I can tell you all about the explicit gay comics, including actually, I don't know if you know what, Safer Sex Comics, which were these tiny pamphlets, which were used to promote public health and safer sex practices amongst gay men in New York City. Was that the ones that Ricky Jervais did a stand-up bit about that was like, why not just come in his hair? Maybe I don't, I don't like Ricky Jervais. I know, fuck him. Yeah. I know, he's a piece of shit, but that was... That's my recovery of Jesus. But, like, that's, that sounds exactly like what he was describing was just like...

Yeah, it's kind of like that. Kind of helpful, but kind of weird. Did you see stuff? Because the author who wrote the Bebo Brinker, uh, lesbian, uh, Pulp novels. Yeah. There are a lot of, a lot of lesbian pulp. I kind of like lesbian pulp. Yeah.

There are a lot of lesbian pulp comics. They're great. Yeah, like, there was, I mean, there was like whole series of underground gay comics that they have bounded up in UIUC, both in their general collection and in their special collections. See, like, I had heard that like they refused to touch it for you. No, it's all over the place there. Okay, who lied to me? How dare they? Yeah.

So we know where to go if we need gay porn all over the place. Yeah. I live there. Why didn't I not take a very? I know exactly where the fuck to find it. And I'm a straight person. I'm sorry. Who doesn't like, you know, that's, you know, you have all these like children on Twitter right now and on Archive of Our Own being like, if you're a this, you can't jerk it to this.

And I'm like, but two people of any variety having sex is hot and I want to watch it. Yeah, exactly. I'm all about, I'm all about people fucking however they want to fuck. Yeah, give them to stuff. Yeah, let's just fuck how we, like consensually. Yeah, what was it? Only, only A-Fab non-binary people can go to this meeting. It's like, you've just reinvented gender.

Women and non-binary people. Yeah, well, no, it was non-binary, but like only, yeah, women and A-Fab non-binary people. And it's like, well, that's just gender again. Women-Lite. You just basically called me a woman, yeah, no. Yeah, it's woman-like. Somebody who falls under the A-Fab non-binary label, like, fuck you. Yeah.

All females are bastards. Yeah. Also. Is that the title of this episode? It is now. Copyright or all females are bastards. I like how far we wandered from fair use straight into gatekeeping and porn. I'm just letting it go.

Well, I was going to say, like, our gay porn collection sucked. My friend was... My friend was the one cataloging it. And he was like, this is just this guy's jerk collection. And he's like, this is crap. Because he was a gay man too. And he was like, which I suspect is why he got assigned it to catalog. But, uh...

The catalog of the porn. Yeah, I don't know if he asked for it. I think it was just some stereotyping going on there. But yeah, he was like, nah, this stuff sucks. It's not any good. I searched and my first result was an article called porn is for masturbation. I'm like, yes, this. Are you in the Internet Archive?

Water is wet. My libraries. I just want to see if we have Well, you don't search for porn when you're looking for porn. You type in what you like. You type in, yeah. You're doing it all wrong, Jay. You type in the very specific full sentence in the porn hub.

I wanted to see if like we have any like our special collections or something. Do I need to info lit some porn behaviors for you? Like that would be great. What I'll learn is by making it relevant to my perverted desires. That's the only way I'll care. Like you need to boogling and string. your desires. You need to frame your desires as a research question.

Can we please do, can we please do an episode on like this and call it you need to Boolean your desires? I just, it needs to be a paper title or a book title or something. We should analyze the metadata of Porn Hub. Like a porn. Yeah. So I'm friends with Bree Watson and they are a sex historian. Yes.

I'm really interested. and like we're working on an article right now. We are together. We can totally have them as a guest. They're great. Yeah, they were a librarian. They were an intern at the Kinsey Institute library at Indiana University. Yeah, they've been on like Conan and stuff for their sex history work.

Yeah, they published their master's thesis and got on Conan because of it. They were on an episode with Larry King. You should link that to me. I'm interested. I don't know. Yeah, we went to. Yeah, they're cool. but we should totally have them as they get us to talk about porn.

I love that. I just love talking about porn, though. I had a backyard party. We had a backyard party with them in Kuzat. Like, I was with them and Milo and Chris at Kuzap. Oh, I love them. Yeah, like, I'm down the street from Kuzap. And so we just, like, casually hang out in the backyard and go for walks and ride bikes and stuff all the time.

Yeah, me and Bree made out a queerty. Hell yeah, you did. Queer Librarians party at ALA. I am not surprised. If there's anyone who you're going to make out with its free. Yeah, of course. I'm at the Zienster from the Zine Pavilion. Yeah.

I was busy that night. I'm glad. It's a regular ALA or G. We should definitely talk about hookups at conferences. Yeah, because I remember I always make that joke, but then I forgot that there's the, like, creepy dude who is just. the creepy dude, yeah. Because I made a joke at ACRL because there was like a, like, I don't know, some other con was going on and they had a condom trough. And I was like ideas for ALA 2021. And then Matt Murray was like, you probably shouldn't make that joke. There was. It's probably safe at the query librarians. Because he's a very sweet man who is very conscientious of other people. And I am not. So he always, he always tells me like, hey, man, you should probably think this through. Yeah, can we do a porn episode?

I would love to do a porn episode. I just want to be perverted. I could send you guys the purple pamphlet. That was a very interesting part of Florida history. I never finished telling you about safer sex comics, though. Okay, go ahead. This is not porn, but it was a way of telling, it was like a way of educating gay men about safer sex practices

during the height of the AIDS crisis in New York City, and they were created by the gay men's health crisis, which was Larry Kramer's, one of his organizations, which they used to promote public health. And they distributed them in bathhouses in public restrooms and subways throughout New York City as a way to, and they were comics.

So they were really visual. They were erotic. So they were designed to promote. Oh my God, Arthur is so cute. sorry. Yeah. So to Prince. Such a king.

Anyway, but they were like, they were really great. And I say this as like someone who's like a huge public health nerd. But like there are really great means of communicating good public health practices and spreading public health information at a, you know, at a wide literacy level. And I just think it's like a really brilliant thing that I learned in the process of researching queer comics. So. That's awesome. also pretty hot if you're into that stuff. I am.

Lots of pants bulges and um, allusioned. Like some Toma Finland shit. Oh absolutely Tom of Finland. Yes. I fucking love Tom of Finland. I do too. Have you seen the movie?

No, I want to though. It's surprisingly good. Oh. They have a, the Tom of Finland has like an authorized like merchandise store. Yeah. It's fun to peruse on an afternoon.

Is that the guy who can't like draw feet or something? No, Toma Fenland was a gay erotic up porn fetish. Basically kind of like basically... I'll drop it into chat. Kind of the originator of like the leather daddy stereotype. Yes, exactly. You recognize it if you saw it. Oh, absolutely.

Like, Orville Peck has a suit that's got some Tomafinland dudes on it. I'm like, Orville Peck, we don't deserve you. So I just- I'm still not sure what Orville Peck is other than some fringe, but I'm into it. Yeah. Gay Cowboy. He did a cover of Fancy. By Riba?

By, yep. Okay. Well, it's not by her originally, but yeah. He did some gender with it, too. I was like, whole. Respect. Yeah. I mostly associate Fancy with Riba, so.

Yeah. Here's one chance for me to go let down. Are we going to get sued? Is that copter in for you? I think that's fair use. And me singing fancy. I have a drop that's probably not fair use. I was just unironically jamming to that while I was putting it in the soundboard.

It's just called Cloud, Cloud Screaming Man. Oh. Is he screaming at the cloud or in the cloud? Oh, my God, you've never seen it? I don't know what it is. I see, like, pop culture. I know the memes. Mainstream pop culture, blank space.

It's like the... He's like an Australian singer or something. And, but his only, he's like, it's his cameo in the song, and that's all he does. But he's like, he's like superimposed into the skyline of like a desert. Oh, I know the memes. Okay. It just came to me. He looks so...

People. usually we'll replace it with a cat with a cowboy hat. Oh, yeah. I just mean the cat with a cowboy hat with like singing like West Virginia or like trains in the sky. I just thought that was like a funny cat meme. I mean, it could be, it could be independent creation, but I think this is what it's referencing. I think it's fine without this. West Virginia.

West Virginia. Country roads take me. Do I use on my new on my new drops? I don't know if I have. Oh yeah, I tried to use this earlier when I thought Jay was going to stop talking. And I was just going to put this as like a response right after he pauses. It was just going to be. Dude, that's 144 eggs. Oops.

But then the, the sentence went on. I tried to time it right. So I'll cut it out when it, when it just, the audio just goes over Jay for no reason. He's offended. You can't, this is an audio medium. You have to express your outrage. I like that you're both amused and offended by the. fact that you've been called out.

Because I talk too much and I'm annoying. No, I think it's just that like, you just, you, you run, you just run. You just run. And I think there's nothing wrong with that. You've been very full of information this episode. Yes. And it's great. As somebody who doesn't, I appreciate it.

Yeah. From introvert to extrovert. I don't have that much shit to say. So, you know what? You're filling that space. with shit that I don't know. Before I learned how to like speak as like a normal human being, that was kind of my dating strategy was to date someone who could do all the talking for me.

So I never would have to talk. Honestly, not a bad strategy. Yeah. But then I had to learn how to be like a grown up and actually talk like a normal person and inflect and do facial expressions. Yeah, like learning how to engage in conversation is really hard. And it like, it took you a long time to learn that too. I still don't know how. It has been suggested I'm on the spectrum, but like obviously not to a point where I've bothered to talk to my psychiatrist about it.

Also, it'll change your insurance status if you are. So probably better if you don't get a diagnosis. What the fuck? Yeah. Yeah, we live in the worst world. Diagnosis of what? This is the worst timeline. Yeah.

So any autism spectrum disorder? Yeah, if you are on, if you are diagnosed officially with an autism spectrum disorder that can affect. your insurance and it could it could technically affect your ability to get health insurance. Does ADHD count? No. I know it's still neurodivergency and I wasn't sure.

Well yeah, that's also the part that I'm not sure about because like I have been diagnosed with ADHD so I'm like maybe it's just like the weird parts of ADHD is why people think I'm on the spectrum because again like I don't care if I am or not like yeah but yeah it was very long process

like this is all skill what you're seeing right now. Like, then I, then I just, you know, took public speaking courses and stuff. Nice. I'm proud of you. Yeah. It's hard. I don't really know how to talk about this stuff, but I used to be good at it.

And then I wasn't for a really long time because of social stuff. And then through practice, I got better. Yeah. I think depression can fuck it up too. Yeah, that's a lot. Like, untreated depression for a long time. Hell, yep, absolutely. I just, I have all Vuba.

It's very fun. But anyway, it sounds like we're winding down. Yeah, we're just disengaging because I said, I was waiting for a pause in him to see. Jay, I want you to say that. I'm not too very self-conscious about that because I've had people like call me dominating before because of it because I was just excited and why I would. Well, there's a word for this. It's called like responsive engagement, which is why like when you say never talk over anyone that's actually kind of culturally insensitive because some cultures talk over people

to show engagement. That's why my best, like my best friend like never knew that I like, because like his family's from New Jersey. Especially. Yeah. Yeah. Especially in Jewish cultures. I read, I've read a article about that.

I've been asked if I'm Jewish. Yeah. making noises and kind of talking over is yeah like culturally acceptable interrupting yeah like Japan does that too like if you're on the phone you're just like I'm listening I'm listening I'm like basically that's how you like respond to people on the phone is you're constantly like yep yep yep yes yes I'm listening I'm listening and that shows engagement so it is kind of a weird thing when you see it in like stack discussions it's like be aware of who you're talking over it's like yeah you should be but also like that's not like a like recently my local DSA sent out a thing about like stacking in in chats and I was like um I know you didn't mean to phrase it this way but it is kind of like not culturally competent for some people like that's also not a thing you can control all the time I've tried on learning like not talking like this and I just say can't I've even like and like the pauses and speech I I guess I registered like they can be really small.

I'm like, oh, that means that person's done because I honestly don't mean it. Oh, yeah. You see it as an opportunity or, I used to, I used to be a really bad interrupter and people would like call me out on it. Like I worked on a, when I was on a trail crew,

it was something that like people found really frustrating. And because we were in such a tight environment, it was something that I became very aware of. So it was something that I became very conscious of working on. So it's just something. thing that like, you know, if you want to work on it, you will. If you don't want to work on it, it's fine. I don't mind because I'm prone to similar behaviors.

So I'm fine and I appreciate your enthusiasm. Yeah. The thing I do, because none of this comes naturally to me, is I've got it locked in what I'm going to say, but then someone else starts talking. And I'm like, oh, no, I can't stop saying this whole sentence I just thought out. And I just continue talking over someone and like realizing I'm doing it. And I'm like, oh, no, I can't stop it. It's like, it's been planned and it's coming out now.

And that's the one thing I have to be like very, that's the one thing I, I'm always like, why don't you just, why don't you just like listen to that part of your brain? It's like you're talking over to someone. I'm like, I don't know. Just words are coming out. Oh, no. I don't know how to stop. But no, it's good for a podcast.

No, I think it makes her a fun podcast energy. for sure. Oh, wait, well, more drop I didn't use. Librarians. Yeah. Librarians. Right at the drop. It just worked so good.

It's really good, actually. I was going to ask the, would we still have copyright? But I think that's in fully automated luxury, gay space communism. But I think I'll save that for when we have a guest about copyright. I think that's a good question for a guest. Yeah. I do like that idea of like asking in an ideal world. Because eventually when we get to the library labor discussion, I'm just going to go, should there be librarians after the revolution?

And we're going to have to answer that. Yeah. No, technically, like, especially with like what do we call ourselves and credentialing. It's like, I probably have some unpopular opinions. Honestly, I just like want my robot body first. I also want to have a robot body. Yeah. Can we make shape changing a thing?

Can I be a ghost in the shell? Yeah. Let's prioritize that first. Yeah. Yeah, I would be probably, it would be really cool not having to like keep eating constantly. I would love like not have to think about that again. One less thing, you know? Yeah. If I could just like. I just want to be existential. Yeah. Brain and jar life glowing orb. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Have my consciousness uploaded to a coffee machine. Be a weird androgynous hacker with no leg. called the puppet master I don't is that a ghost in the shell reference

yes it is okay I've never been able to get through it the puppet master is a male voice but is in the body of a female person who has no leg that's just like disembodied torso with tits and blonde hair um

some gender happens that's a lot of gender that's a lot of gender and ghost and shell in the in the manga at the end uh the major gets put into the body of an androgynous man and in the movie it's a she gets put into the body

of a young girl at the end when her body gets destroyed so there's gender happening. It goes to the shell. It turned up the gender dial to Max. Yeah, I know I wrote paper about it. It was pretty good. They just amp that shit right up. Gender. Yeah, gender 11. I became a barrient of cataloger because of that paper by the way.

I tell that job interviews sometimes. Yeah. So my my origin story is from the mixed up files of This is Basilie Frankenweiler. Oh my God. I love that book. I got to be a librarian because I was working in a library, but I got into cataloging in subject headings

because I was doing research for this paper. And I was like, am I just not searching right? Like what? And then I, my boss was like, here's Sandy Berman. And I was like, Okay, that's a compliment. That's a compliment. That's a next level compliment.

Sandy Berman's ratis hill. Oh, yeah. The raddust. I was very tired. Yeah. I was tired, but now I'm like awake. I had a long day. It's only 7 o'clock for me, so I could be here all night.

My simulins me and I wake up early. I have a delayed chronotype, but my body hurts from riding my bike, but I'm going to be awake for a while because I'm always awake for a long time. I've got some leftover porium seltzer. Hell yeah. I drank like, I had like 20 fucking drinks. I don't know how I'm not. What was, did you have a sexy Purim costume? No, I just read the book of Esther and got really drunk.

It's what I usually do every Purim. It's also what I do on Halloween. I didn't, I did not know that like Purim was a costume holiday until this year. And then I was like talking to my friend about it. I was like, are there sexy Purim costumes? And she's like, oh yes, they're all sexy. And I'm like, no way. Can non-Jewish people celebrate?

This sounds dope. It's just a, it's drinking holiday, and you're just glad that the Jews weren't killed. Yeah, I'm always glad about that. I feel like that, yeah. I think, you know, I'm not Mexican, but like, I will get drunk on Cinco de Mayo. Like, so I feel like it's kind of the same thing. I think we should just entirely Americanize for him and just turn it into a yet another American shitty drinking holiday. So there is.

There's a Michael guest, or there's a Christopher guest movie about this. It's for your consideration where they write a movie for them, but then they change it to Thanksgiving. Okay. I need to watch that. Yeah, it's been a while since I've seen it. It's not one of his better ones. It's no waiting for Guthman, but it's pretty good. Okay.

Well, we can wrap up. So, good. There's no ghosts in the show. Arster says good night. He's been of a breadloaf behind me. Good night. Good night. It's almost as bad as the egg cooking deep in TikTok.

I hate the egg cooking demon TikTok.