librarypunk - 008 - Making spaces

Episode Date: April 11, 2021

This week we’re joined by temporary replacement Jay, Peter Woods, to talk about makerspaces, Maker (™) movements, gender, and education. We also get into who would be the best nu-metal library rockstar. You can follow Peter on Twitter at @PeterJWoodsPhD. His DIY Peloton stream https://www.twitch.tv/xpelotonx.  (PDF) (Re)making Whiteness: A Critical Discourse Analysis of Equity-Based Maker Literature Articles Peter referenced: Funds of knowledge and discourses and hybrid space Creating Hybrid Spaces for Engaging School Science Among Urban Middle School Girls  Stem-Rich Maker Learning: Designing for Equity with Youth of Color DIY Skateparks as temporary disruptions to neoliberal cities: informal learning through micropolitical making Weird makerspace cult Jay wanted to talk about https://lassonde.utah.edu/studios/  Image credit: "Milwaukee Makerspace at the 2011 Frolics Parade" by plural is licensed under CC BY-SA 2.0

Happy National Library Week. It's library punk. All right. Hello, everybody. My name is Justin. I'm a Skullcom librarian. My pronouns are he and him. I'm Sadie.

I'm an IT administrator at a public library. My pronouns are she and they. I'm Carrie. I'm a health sciences academic librarian. And my pronouns are she her. And we have a guest. Would you like to introduce yourself? Sure.

Mysterious guest. Hi. Yeah, I'm Peter Woods. I am an education scholar, currently a postdoc, soon to be a research scientist if we need titles. Also a musician and artist and various other things. Pronouns are he and him. Yeah, that's who I am. Nice. So this is a much demanded. Highly anticipated. anticipated topic. Oh, God. Which is just the topic of maker spaces in general. Because people,

so, I mean, their thing in general, right? But they've also, like, become a thing in library specifically. And, like, so you know about them from an educational perspective, like, because they appear in schools and in kind of, independently managed nonprofit spaces, etc.

Or even for-profit spaces in some cases, as I've seen in various contexts. And I've also been in the nonprofit part of what, well, it was originally a more femme-oriented craft space that predominated the maker movement, or predominated the maker movement. But anyway, not, anyway, ancestrally related to the maker movement.

Is this the thing that you were like absolutely pissed about like three episodes ago? Probably. Having closed while you were in college. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Recreational art spaces.

I came from recreational art spaces prior to being having a librarian. And then when I saw that like these makerspaces were entering libraries, it was like, what the fuck is this shit? Um, because I saw that colleges were closing these like art spaces. And then their libraries were opening these makerspaces instead. and I'm like, this is interesting. And then they weren't hiring me was the other thing. Oh, there it comes out. Yeah.

They did different kinds of making, right? Exactly. It was a different kind of making. It was this like stemified, like, it was 3D printers and software and, you know, Arduino and things like that instead of photography. You said stem, right? You said stem? Yes, stem. Stem.

You said stem? Stem. Stem. Oh, God, I'm so excited now. Okay. This is very exciting. Wait, hold on. You triggered him.

Hold on. What about Steam? Oh, what steam got to do with it? Can we go as far as to say steam? We could say steam. I mean, you wanted the arts. You wanted the arts, so let's just make it steam. Yeah, but like which arts are allowed, though?

because we had a facility with, we had pottery, photography, screen printing. I managed the screen printing and photography facilities, glass, and mixed use. So, had, and a wood shop. Which arts are we allowed to shoe, hit your shoe horn in on that? Yeah, which arts could. Here are the arts. Okay. You can include coding for art.

You can include. 3D printing art More computer touching Yeah Turning Arduino into sculptures And for the ladies out there E textiles E textiles

You mean like Jacardloos? Or the ladies Like a Descartoom? I don't know what that is Oh it's the original computer A Descartes A Descartoom is the original computer, Peter. Oh.

Yeah, like the punch cards, right? Yeah, that's where punch card programming was invented. No, so not that. Yeah. This is, no, that's not for the ladies. For the ladies is the thread is like metal and then you can turn it into a circuit. But you can't wear it. Typical girls' night.

You can wear it. You can still wear it. It just lights up. You like put an Arduino in the pocket and then you sew the circuit and then the the coat you're making lights. It's only a maker be shiny. It's only stem because it lights up. Yes.

Yeah, blinking lights are very much stem. Okay. But if it didn't blink up, it wouldn't be. So normal non-blinking thread, not steam. Blinking thread, steam. No, right. Okay. And it's, this is, and it's important.

It is important because this is solving all of the gender disparities within technology right now. Of course. I just want to be very clear about that. As a woman who works in technology, I see the difference that e-textiles make every single day of my life. You probably are like e-textiling right now. Right now.

Like under my desk where you can't see, even though I have both my hands. That's great. Wait, okay. I used to turn a woman very loosely too, by the way. I'm wearing an underwire bra. Is that an e-textile? I don't know.

Is it attached to an Arduino? No, I don't think so. It could be. It's not raspberry pied. It's not. Okay. No. The bra of the future.

You gotta have light up tics. I don't have an apple bra yet. I saw that on TikTok. Can I live code your jugs? That's what I want to know, right? I don't, yeah. I've known you for like almost three years now, and this hasn't come up yet. we haven't talked about live coding

live coding your jugs each other's nipples yet oh Jesus man I'm really glad you guys invited me to be a guest on your podcast here I really feel like I'm adding

to the discourse right now you really are you just slid right in yeah yeah we had to have an awkward first episode where we didn't know like how loose we were going to be with it

yeah I operate on an assumption of looseness. Yeah. Well, and that's why I kind of brought you in for this because I was like, yeah, Peter knows how to talk about maker spaces and race and gender and those things. But you also know how to be loose as fuck. So like, you know, you're my Arby's friend. That's why I'm the bad boy of the learning sciences.

That's why you're an education guy on a library. podcast, FYI, because education people historically do not hang out with library people. Yeah, we're not cool enough. No, it's like they beef. Yeah, there's always beef. And we use the same terms, but they're defined differently. Like information literacy means a completely different thing in education, which is something I didn't know until I was working with people who taught like introductory courses.

And they would bring me in to talk about information literacy. And I found out that we are not working on the same assumptions at all. Whoops. Sounds about right. I mean, like, why would you let one group define a word for everybody when everybody can make a career out of defining words in different spaces? I mean, it's just, you just, it's important for jobs. It's a job creation, not letting anybody use the same word in the same way.

So just looking out for everybody out there. Economically important. So I wanted to ask you a question. We've got a few for you. I wanted to ask about, I was reading your article and how certain types of making are in the making culture. We've kind of already touched on that. But are there like punk DIY overlaps? Like, because that is a subculture.

And it seems like makerspaces not only are creating their own subculture, either intentionally or unintentionally. Yeah. So are you asking if like there is there a Venn diagram of like maker thing and punk worlds or is it like maker spaces and punk worlds are doing the same thing and they just don't realize it? I'm interested in like the gender dynamics. Like is that the same is the same thing happening in both of those places? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm going to go with yes. Absolutely. Yeah. The thing. So part of them, but the research. that I did for my dissertation was I was looking at doing experimental music workshops within DIY contexts. And one of the contexts that it just happened to be a makerspace, which we, you know, it was the sort of punk thing where it's like we don't actually use the building for what it's supposed to be doing. We just kind of decide that it's a venue that day and we move the furniture to the side and do our thing or whatever.

And in the south, that's just all the VFW buildings. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, definitely. Shout it to the short Legion Hall. Shout it to the, there's a West Dallas Legion Hall. I forgot what it's called. But yeah, yeah, you know the drill. But yeah, so like that what I realized within these contexts,

and one of the big things that I talk about here is what I have lovingly defined as the Punisher conversation or the gear toucher conversation in my dissertation, where it's this thing where, you know, like the show ends and everybody's just kind of standing around awkwardly. And then to start the conversation, somebody from the audience walks up to a musician and starts asking them about their guitar pedals

or their drums or whatever they're using in that context. And the argument that I'm making my dissertation is that this is a huge pedagogical moment, right? You want to learn how somebody is making music or you want to learn like the tools of the trade within this context. You go up and you have these conversations. So a huge pedagogical moment. And then what I also found is that it's an incredibly gendered conversation

that happens. So, you know, there's a very different conversation that happens between two dudes versus, you know, somebody that is a dude and somebody of a marginalized gender identity, whatever that happens to be, you know, across the board on both sides, too. You know, it's there's this, the use of that conversation is to essentially remove people from that, from that space. And so if we're thinking about the analog between DIY spaces and punk spaces, especially in terms of gender in this context, is the thing that we can see. is that these forms of pedagogy transferred between both of these spaces. There's this understanding of like, we're not going to teach you things. We're not going to be a teacher that's going to lecture you and tell you how to do things. Instead, we're going to create a space where people are learning these things independently

and on their own and learning through these conversations and these social interactions. The difference being that punk spaces don't really think about that stuff. And nobody really thinks about punk spaces as a classroom unless you're a nerdy-ass researcher like me. But maker spaces is different. makerspaces are like, this is an educational context. We love Seymour Paffert. Seymour Papert is the best guy ever. Yeah.

And that's what you define that maker space around. So then, so the pedagogies are the same. But what I saw was that the ways that technology as a gendered tool and a gendered thing within the world is that that that just creeps into the pedagogies that are happening. So if those pedagogies are about forming that community and forming that subculture, then this is just a tool that people, use to remove people from those spaces. So, yeah, so being really intentional about that and being really conscious of that, I think is really important. And it's not something that really gets touched on a lot.

And if we're thinking about like makerspaces, like I was making this joke before about e-textiles, right? And this is one approach to dealing with that and trying to change that gender dynamic within the technology. But it's still not addressing that issue of pedagogy where it's like, what are the actual social interactions that are happening and how are these communities forming? and how are those replicating those gender dynamics as well? Yeah.

Can we make coding pink? Yeah, exactly. Kind of stuff. Yeah. Or how can we code about hip hop and then we can get black people in our space? There's also that. Yeah. That's the fun thing in education, right?

It's like, how do you make a more diverse space? Well, you just make a word problem about basketball and then all of a sudden it, like, fixes all the problems of, like, issues. Yeah, it's the elementary school teacher approach. Yeah. Like if you have five Pokemon and you lose four Pokemon, how many Pokemon's? Yeah. And all of a sudden people are going to care about a subtraction problem. Yeah.

Is there like a, go ahead. Oh, no, go ahead. Is there a, did your research focus on other types of maker spaces like in museums and how they get people to interact with their collection? So my research specifically didn't do a lot of that. You know, I'm drawing from that body of research and looking at a lot of those makerspace contexts where, you know, within education literature, there's a lot of stuff happening with museum-based maker education spaces, a lot of stuff with library contexts, a lot of stuff with like school-based maker spaces and things like that.

And so there's a pretty big body of research that's happening there, mostly because people can get a lot of money for it right now. Like, you know, the NSF loves, loves themselves in MakerSpace. So I think a lot of people that are doing informal learning are like, oh, crap, I can actually like get a grant sick. And so, yeah, there's a lot that's happening there. And I think there's a lot of really amazing work that's happening and also a lot of work that's totally overlooking a lot of the issues that are starting

to bubble up. And that was sort of the reason that I wrote that paper that you saw, which was kind of looking at the ways. that equity was being taken up within these contexts and the ways that people were thinking about equity and wondering, is that the way that we need to think about equity within these contexts and how is that, you know, how can we think through equity, you know, more intentionally and think through equity within the sort of theoretical understanding of what making is in the first place, you know, making being, you know, capital M making being a relatively new

phenomenon that has just sort of expanded really quickly without people really interrogating what that means. Some people are doing, I think, a really good job of that. You know, I think about like Paula Blixtein and Shereen Vasugi are both doing really amazing work in that context, but still a bit of a bit of the minority at the moment. So the one thing, I really enjoyed your paper, just saying, yeah. And I think Jay, who is unfortunately absent today, like put in a couple of notes where it was kind of asking like where that sort of intersected with the right to repair because, you know, um, maker spaces all about creating new things and all of that sort of creativity, talk and whatnot. But like, how does that

differ from a workshop where you're learning how to like repair your bike? Like, did you, do you, Did you see any sort of overlap in that way? Like Justin talked about like the punk DIY spaces, but sort of right to repair? Yeah. So it's the sort of weird thing where I think people are starting to sort of catch on to the, some of the issues with making and the way that making has been taken up as like a specific, a specific social construct in a lot of ways, right?

Like, it's that the people that are really thinking critically about this, you know, they have known since the beginning that making isn't like a new thing, right? People make stuff and have made stuff forever, right? Ware talks about this and does a really good job of tracing this idea of like a DIY ethic that kind of underlies making back to the Industrial Revolution when there was a shift socially where people actually had to like, or people were able to shift labor practices to other folks, right? If I wanted a pair of shoes, I didn't have to make a pair of shoes because there was this sort of growing context where people were having specializations and things like that and commerce and capitalism

and all these lovely things. And so like the need to actually like do things yourself, that starts to bubble up later on within, you know, the scope of human history. but that's what 200 300 years ago at this point somewhere somewhere in there you know whatever that math is and and so I think when we talk about like things like right to repair or fixing things and stuff like that I think the way that gets taken up within maker spaces and with making in general sort of depends from maker space to maker space to maker space to maker space like who is thinking through making at that point who is, you know, enacting things in that space,

how are people conceiving of that space and things like that? You know, is this a, you know, the kind of maker space that really loves 3D printing is that the kind of maker space that really loves die cutting machines and laser cutters and, you know, all that like high-tech stuff. Or is it the kind of maker space that like thinks like, hey, we got a bunch of cardboard from the local dumpster and a bunch of yarn. Let's make a thing with this dumpstered cardboard and yarn, you know. And so I think that has a,

a place within making. And I think it's a thing that people are trying to pay more attention to. Like, what is the actual needs of this community? And what's the way that making can actually exist within the social and cultural context that it's actually going to be meaningful for people that walk in? Calbracy, Barton, and Tan have been doing a lot of really cool stuff with this where they're talking about, you know, they're both do a lot of stuff with science education and things like that. So they're thinking about STEM and their loving STEM, but they're also saying like, if

we're going to, you know, set up a maker space within a community, like, what does that community actually want? And they talk about how they do these projects with students that are really awesome, where they're using STEM to solve issues within the community and things like that. So, you know, recognizing that there isn't a whole lot of people in this community that have cars, and they're taking public transportation and they're getting home late. So there are kids that are, you know, like sewing in lights into, like, hoodies and stuff like that. So it's, you don't have to, like, carry a flashlight around, but you put you lit up and it makes it safer. You know, things like that.

And bras. Yeah, and bras. Yeah, and bras. They're doing a lot of live coding of jugs within this maker space, which is, you know, it's important work. It's important work that needs to be highlighted and taken up. And I will be telling the people at the NSF that they need to give me a million dollars over the course of four months to do some more live coding of jugs. For jug codes. It has no vowels. It's just JGS.

Yeah. Yeah. No you. You all work in libraries. Do all of your libraries have makerspaces? Definitely not. I've never worked in library with one. No. Oh. I was led to believe that you libraryed based on the title of the podcast. That's the only way you libraries through makerspaces.

It's true. But I have worked at some library systems. Yeah. I don't care. You medical library. Yeah. But I, well, I work at a lot. I am the medical, I am the medical librarian at an academic library without a medical library because we don't have a med school. So if you don't have a med school, you don't actually need a medical library.

Can you demand, though, that you have a medical maker space where you just like have bodies? Oh, yeah. A couple dozen games of operations. Actually, the University of Tennessee technically has a body farm, which was be like your medical maker space. It's a forensic body farm.

So technically that's a medical maker's space. You should be able to go in. Is that a maker space? It's a ravioli. Remove some skin. Is it a rabiol? So yourself a new costume.

Making. You definitely have to like get suture kits and stuff. So like yeah, you could just have a maker space. We had like an, uh, at my, my first job, which we had a lot of space. It can be. there's a lot of art and craft that goes into it. But my first library did have like an anatomical, we had like a full skeleton set and stuff like that.

So like actually that was kind of a question that follows on pretty quickly, which is, you know, libraries, how does makerspaces work with library collections? Because a lot of places have like tool collections and seed collections. How do those worlds intersect or do maker spaces just stay off to the side and play with the computers? I'm not much of an expert on that, but I will say like the few makerspace, man, come on. Life's hard.

Yeah, come on. Just, you know, just be cool. Come on, man. Come on. Just like, be cool. Be a panelist on like some library con and like that's your answer. Come on, man. Come on, man.

Ask a tough question. Come on, man. Why can't you be cool about this? Come on, Jack. Yeah. We're in like the middle of the big education conference. Like right now, it's like we're like dead setter in the middle of it. And all my presentations are on Monday.

So I think I'm going to like, I'm trying out some like different approaches right now. So if anybody asks me any question that's in any way critical, that I think that's going to be my response. Yeah. That's a good one. Come on, man. Yeah. Dude, come on. Just, oh, that's, like, really spot on.

Yeah. I think, like, yeah, especially, like, for, like, anything that's, like, more of a comment than a question, that's really. Don't ask me that question. Oh. That wasn't even a question, dude. Did you have to? Like, like, now. Really?

Guy. I just want someone to be like, this is more of a comment than a question. panelist just goes next. Wouldn't that be beautiful? I'll do it if I get a chance. Yeah, that's more of a comment than a question. Well, this is more of a middle finger than a thumbs up. Next.

I really want to just like, I need to do more flicking off of people at conferences because I really need to cement the fact that I'm the bad boy of the learning sciences. and I think this is a good opportunity. It's going to be great for your career. It is. It is. I also just want to make sure that I remind people constantly that I'm on the job market as I'm doing it too. I think that would be a lovely thing for everybody involved.

But yeah, so going back to your question of like collections and makerspaces and things like that. Again, not an expert. I don't know what's happening with a lot of libraries. I'm seeing some overlap in what I've seen happening around and in the literature and things like that where people are thinking through approaches to especially early childhood literacy of how we can tie in reading things with kids and kind of making it a more hands-on experience for the kids that are doing things. This mostly talking here about like public library settings where there's a lot of informal education programming for K-12 kids. And I've also seen this expand into, you know, older grades as well.

So how are we taking works of literature, developing new projects or ideas based off of that and building from that realm? In terms of looking at academic libraries and spaces like that and people that are working with adult learners and stuff in that realm, I'm not seeing a lot of that. Mostly those contexts, I'm seeing a lot of the, like, the Richard Hatch mindset of, like, makerspaces are great because this is where the next iPod is going to be invented. This maker space is great because it's about entrepreneurship. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because what we need is another Steve Jobs.

Yeah, it's using the library's resources, like, cashing in on the library without giving anything back. Exactly, yeah. I'm so against entrepreneurs right now. I have an anti-Musk agitation in Google Doc because he's trying to incorporate his own company town in a nearby town to me. And so we're just putting together like a list of politicians that are clearly getting paid off in his donations

to the city. Has anybody seen the footage of the tube that the Teslas are driving through? Yes. Okay, you've seen this. It's a road. It's a road. Yeah. What does it do?

It's a road. Okay. But like, what is it supposed to be? Like, how is this a thing? It's a road. Like, did, if you get in If something catches on fire, you die. Come on, man. Come on.

I'm Elon Musk. Come on. Just like, Grimes, let's go. It was a bait and switch. Baby. Yeah. So there's the hyperloop, which is the vacuum tube.

And then there's the loop, which was supposed to be like on tracks, but they couldn't get it to work. So they decided, well, we'll just fix it with software, because software never fails. And then they just built a fucking road. Okay. And Tesla's drive in it. And they have gall wing doors in a very narrow tunnel with no emergency exits. Right. And lithium fires are very, very, very difficult to put out.

They're highly elusive. Nothing bad will come up that ever. Someone is going to fucking die. I love. So what you're telling me is that this is bad. More or less. Isn't it kind of wild though feeling like we live in a, a time with our own like mustache twirling robber baron super demon honestly i'm sick of living

in historical times like i'm fucking over it yeah no no to have our yeah have our very own like sci-fi villain he's not even trying to hide it i can't wait for the masterpiece series to be made about the year 2020 the thing that sucks though is that like aesthetically our villains are awful. There is no fashion happening. The least you can do is be queer-coded and like sexy, right? At least from my point of view. Like, if you're going to be a villain, those are like, it's a low bar and you fucked it up.

They can't even dress. Like, look at Zuckerberg in his goddamn hoodie. Like, and like Jack from Twitter and his caprice, like, none of them can put on a piece of clothing to save their life. And Bezos, like, he's a piece of, he's a piece of linoleum. Did you see he got jacked recently? Yeah.

That's his new thing. It's really gross looking. Weird. He got into like herbal life or some shit. Well, he's bald so he's automatically a villain. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah.

I mean like say what you want about the alt right. At least like they like did a little bit to like be dapper. Like that's at least like a step in the right direction. They had a haircut. Yeah. Like yeah. And I could see it and be like, yeah, I see that you're trying to look. good, but you're awful.

And that makes me hate you more and also want to fight you more. And it was like, but at least we knew how to identify them. Yeah. Yeah. Who was that dude who got decked by like. Spencer? Richard Spencer. Richard Spencer.

I derived. Nice haircuts still got like fucking laid out. Yeah. I just, there was this really beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

There was that really, like, beautiful moment for a couple of months where, like, everybody realized the depth of horribleness that the alt-right was. And just, like, every week there would be something new of just somebody fucking with Richard Spencer. And it was so incredibly gorgeous. Like, him just getting yelled out of a gym by, like, a middle-aged woman or just, like, getting getting dressed in the face. Like, some lady named Donna. You know, every moment was just like, yeah. And it was just, he was just. His life was just miserable and large and small ways.

And it was just incredible, like the depth of horribleness that everybody in the world teamed up to do. And it's moments like that that you get faith in humanity for just like a second or two. I try to hold on to it. Of euphoria. Yeah. Yeah. So, Carrie, I want to know the story about the maker space you worked in. Oh.

And see where that goes. Yeah, it wasn't actually. The Mormon MLMLM, multi-level marketing MLM. No, that was J. Yeah, that was J. That was J. Yeah, that was J. Entrepreneurship.

Entrepreneurial Mormon multi-level marketing dorm space in Utah. With a really good cafe, apparently. Apparently, yeah. Yeah. I was looking at their website earlier, and it really does look like it's just like 3D printers. Yeah. Like, there was all that effort,

and it doesn't even look like it's very, but it's also like join our club and do our peer mentoring and coaching and bright reflections about 3D printing. What does that sound like? It sounds like a multi-level marketing scheme. It sounds like a cult. Yeah. Sorry. You guys aren't former Mormons.

No, but I've spent enough time around them. I couldn't watch. So, Sadie, I couldn't watch the murder among the Mormons thing on Netflix because it was all about Mormon book dealers. and I've talked to too many of them in my lifetime. Like, I've talked to like five, which is enough. Which is enough, yeah. My wife watched that and was just like, you'll want to watch this later, but I have to tell you all about it right now because it's so bad shit.

And just like told me the whole thing. And I was like, yeah, that sounds right. That sounds about right for Mormon politics. Was Hava raised Mormon too? No, but she has a ton of family that is. So, very, like, you mentioned Dutera the other day. Like, I think it was you, Carrie. It was, it was traumatic.

Oh, we were talking about the essential oils. Yeah. Yeah, the Dutera essential oils. She has several family members who are into Dutera. It was Sensi and Dutera. Those were really big when I lived in Iowa. Lula Rowe was big for a little while. Oh, yeah, that was huge.

Yeah, I went to a Lulero party one time when I lived in. Iowa. That was a very interesting experience. It was, it was like, everything was pajamas. I don't know how else to, everything was pajamas. It was like gray animals for grown women. Which like if you're going to go for it, just go, just go for it. Just get the onesie. Yeah, just like wear a unicorn one. I don't know. I shouldn't judge people like that, but anyway. But here we go. No, my experience was, I worked at a recreational art studio in college. And then I was very faithful.

I supported it for a number of years. Had a really close relationship with the people who continued to run it. And then the building it was in needed to close for ballroom repairs. And so they decided to no longer continue funding the recreational art studio, which had been there since 1973. And I think it was about four years later, or a few years later, something like that, I saw an announcement from the university libraries

saying that they were opening a maker space. I was like, y'all already had this and you ruined it. So, like, way to, I guess, slough it off on the libraries. And, yeah, I had a lot of very complicated feelings about that. I just don't have faith that libraries can do that kind of thing as well as like the recreational art space I worked for did because there were people who are, I mean, you know, if you have the people who are dedicated to doing that kind of work in a nonprofit space or

the university staff that's dedicated to doing it, especially in an inclusive environment, like, you know, a recreational art facility can offer. It can work. But also like it's one of those things that like, I don't know. We tried to do, like, we tried to integrate some of that, like, Arduino, you know, sort of like more. Once we started, you know, doing, we, we did a few meetups with like a local maker group, for instance. And that was always a little weird because they were a little flaky. Um, and things like that. So I, you know, I have some complicated feelings around, uh, maker spaces as a result.

Yeah. So Jay had a question, which is why libraries. I think, Peter, you mentioned that there's funding for it. Is that where the impetus is coming from? I think that's a big thing. You know, this sort of push for makerspaces being the solution to educational problems that don't quite fit within like a school of context. So if it doesn't fit in a school of context, where do you go?

Well, you go to the libraries and then you do all these sorts of things. So, yeah, and I think it's if you want to get a grant in your educational space, that isn't a school. Like, starting a maker space is, I think, a really good way to do that. And you can, you know, bring in a lot of funding in that sort of model. But I think also that there's, I think there's also a very legitimate and earnest understanding of maker spaces is a way to heighten STEM stuff within libraries. And we can talk endlessly about the politics of STEM and how that term is incredibly loaded. And that's, you know, we're not going to shy away from it.

that and I'm going to make fun of it a lot because it's very funny to me. Same. Yeah. You know, STEM, steam, rearrange the letters. We could have had meets, but instead we're just left with steam. Very unexciting. But yeah, I think that there's this earnest interest in having this sort of context and this understanding of education that engages with those aspects, you know, the different

categories of learning and disciplinary categories and things like that. And people see this as a way to have that educational experience without having to have, you know, this sort of... Dedicated investment. Yeah. I think it's a way to avoid some dedicated investment, too. Like, we could have, you know, some more debt. Like, you could have a dedicated staff person or a dedicated sort of environment for this

sort of thing too. Yeah. I mean, you could hire somebody that knows things about this stuff, or you could buy a 3D printer. And I think that it's, you know, if you're left with a choice between let's, you know, try to get somebody hired on staff and then the structures that be saying, no, it's not going to happen versus we're going to write a one-time grant to get a 3D printer. I think it's a lot easier to do that. So yeah, I think there's a lot of things that are pushing for libraries to embrace those sorts of things and museums as well and sort of the same same boat of like how do we get past a place where you're looking at stuff to a place where actually doing things and making things and stuff like that it's a it's an easy way to sort of brand that and bring that

into a context like that and is there like a capitalist ideology that goes along with it that kind of sells it oh god absolutely uh i mean this is this is it's the richard hatch's dream right everybody every kid that's going to walk in there is going to suddenly jump three to four class hierarchies because they invented the next iPod, like every single one, and it's going to be great. But yeah, I think it's just that same thing that's happened within education since day one, right? This is the idea that if you just get the right technologies, they're going to solve all of education's problems. And so there's this understanding of the way that you solve education is by you put a bunch of money into it. And this becomes a way for people to do that quickly.

It's branded. People know what that word means. They know what STEM means. They know that STEM is good. They've seen some research talking about how maker spaces are good for education. And then all of a sudden, you have this floodgate opens and people are suddenly able to just like make these maker spaces happen. For better or for worse. I mean, some maker spaces that open are incredible and they're doing amazing things.

Kids are learning stuff and adults are learning. stuff and everybody's forming communities and it's fantastic, but also like there's also places that just buy a 3D printer and stick it in the corner and then their maker space is done, which is bad. I'm going to go ahead and say that. That is not a good way to use money or resources. So Jay put something in our notes too, talking about like, are you familiar with little free libraries? Have you heard?

Are those the little like the houses with the books inside of them? dollhouses with books in them. Exactly. I'm pretty sure your neighborhood has a few of them in them. You've seen them walking your dogs. For those listening at home, I just gave everybody the middle finger because the booing got me a little excited. A little hyped up on the booing.

The bad boy came out. Yeah. This is a rowdy podcast now. This is back, baby. We've got the bad boy of learning sciences here on library punk. What's the name of the bad boy baby from, I think you should leave? Like that's, I want to be that at all academic conferences. Bart Harvey Jarvis.

Fuck you Harvey Jarvis. Yeah. He's a little tuna can. I'm just going to change my name to that and publish only under Jarvis. Fuck you, Bart and Harvey Jarvis. They don't stay babies forever. Shut the fuck up. They're not babies anymore.

Fucking idiots. feel free to cut this out. I'm just going to talk about the skit for the next 20 minutes. I never cut anything. Sam Richards said, he really doesn't. Hell yeah. Even when I ask him to. I just assume you're joking. So there's this sort of question about little free libraries always end up in like communities that don't have like the lack of need for them to begin with. Like is how much of that is happening in like makerspaces?

Do you see the well-funded wider communities having the more successful makerspaces and the ones that just shove like a 3D printer in the corner tend to be like the underfunded places? Is that parallel? Like is that parallel to makerspaces as well? So yeah. I think, you know, I talk a little bit about this in the article where I think that there is a very concerted effort that a lot of people are making to say like makerspaces would be in

amazing thing to improve education for folks that don't have access to, you know, high quality educational experiences and things like that. Like, that's a way for types of pedagogical models to exist within communities that don't necessarily have access to those models. I think there's a concerted effort to do that. I think people are doing wonderful work on that. that being said uh the history of making and maker spaces that needs to be addressed is the fact that a lot of the you know the capital m maker spaces i mean this started in silicon valley right this was that that was the place where it began uh and then it got shifted over to you know MIT wasn't a early adopter and so there you go there's your there is your historical reference point where that all goes back and so you can imagine all the different problems that come out of that um you know wealthy areas, wealthy schools, wealthy institutions are the ones that are embracing maker spaces. And then on top of that, you know, it's the same issues within education that happen, right? That you look at places that have, you know, rich white kids.

They're the ones that are getting the types of educational experiences that are, you know, considered the ones that students want. They're the ones that I get to act with agency. They're the ones that have autonomy. They're the ones that get to do the project-based learning stuff. They're the ones that get to do hands-on learning and making and all of these things. And I think makerspaces follow suit. You know, talking earlier about my dissertation work, it's the same phenomenon, right,

that we can sit there and say that we've created this wonderful thing that's going to happen, but societal forces are going to creep in regardless of what we have. you know, it's that old quote of we don't have an education problem, we have a capitalism problem. And that's just, you know, what's going to be, you know, the way that maker spaces function is going to be the same as the ways that social context function and social structures function and social institutions function. So, yeah, so the long, the short answer to your question is, yeah, it's, you know, it's the same sort of issues that we're seeing, despite some conservative. effort to, you know, really bring those experiences to people that normally wouldn't have access to them. Yeah, when you started. Such a good answer. Sadie disappeared. Yeah, I just, I just like ascended. Don't mind me. Yeah. Your answer. Is this going to be like a TikTok thing where you're going to

pull the, you're going to pull your little cover up and then you're going to be like in a different place because that'd be cool. Yeah, and a totally different outfit. Yeah. That's going to be what happened. Yeah. No, no, the only thing that's different is now my dog is jumping at me. So, We're all like Bha, different clothes. This is my understanding of TikTok. Yeah, there's a lot of that. I spent today just scrolling on TikTok

because it's starting to actually learn what I like. Which is mostly just like people pranking their Mexican dad. It's very good. And then also that dad also has a cooking TikTok. And so I'm just like, oh, man, I really should make my own tortillas. I really need to start doing it. doing this. Nice.

So, yeah. I feel like I'm officially old because I've gotten to a point where like TikTok being the new social media platform that's up. Like I'm not even trying. Yeah, I'm not either. I can't. It's not even like an attempt. Yeah.

I didn't set up the username. I don't have a password. Like I'm not even there. I'm just like if this ends up in my Twitter feed. fine but like I'm I'm I'm you know let's leave that to the kids yeah I'm kind of I'm kind of a vicarious ticotker like other people will find tic talks and show them to me and that's where I am on tic talk like I'm like yeah I'll watch your tic talks like I just I think whatever is the best will rise to the top and I'll see it and I'm good with that yeah if you follow ted um the archivist

oh yeah ted's got like a really good roundup of tic talks every day some of them are distressing though. Yeah. But he's got some really interesting actual discussions about like racism and cultural appropriation going the last couple days. Like wow, this is pretty interesting.

But yeah, there's a lot of young people and it's just like 18 year old shaking their ass and I'm like, I don't want to see this. Swipe left. So I'm trying to teach it. That's how TikTok works, right? Swipe left. No.

Swipe right. I don't know how to tell it to not show me this stuff. They should make TikTok do that though. Yeah. You hold down and a little thing will pop up. This says, not interested. And you click that. Yeah, no, that was a trick I learned from my wife who is on TikTok every day.

Who shows me the past TikToks. Yeah. Yeah, she sends me a lot of TikToks. She's like my only friend on there. Yeah, that's pretty much my whole exposure to TikTok too is sometimes she'll be like, you want to sit down and watch my favorites. Here, I sent you this one. And I'm like, thanks.

I would never have seen that. Thank you. So I was about to ask, like, how soon is. is it going to be that TikTok curator is going to be a job? And I realized that since I thought that question, it has to exist. Like somebody is making money just curating TikToks. Like in content moderation? Or like, like as a collection development.

Yeah. Because like, no, your meme has a librarian on staff. So they must be pulling stuff from TikTok. Yeah. I was more like, I was thinking like I could like go to some dude named like Steve and I'd be like, here's $5. She'll be like the best TikToks of the day. And Steve would be like, here's, yeah, Steve Wisconsin.

The namesake of Wisconsin. It's actually his great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, grandson. I kept the family name. Steve Wisconsin the eighth. Yes, see Wisconsin the eighth. Constant moderator or no, content, content, content curator for TikTok. Steve Wisconsin

the 8th. Yeah, there are tons of blogs that already do that. They're like TikToks for thick thoughts. Like, there you go. Yeah. Are they making money, though? I have no idea.

I don't know how anyone makes money anymore. I don't either. Not in librarianship. Oh. Yeah. So, let's see. Can I get a booy yo-yo-yo-yo-in soundboard on that? Which fucking boi-yo-yo-yo-y-yo-y-o-y-oh.

Oh, you were talking. to me. I just, yeah, Jay's here with us in spirit. Which fucking, we whipped. Yeah, yeah, that's a good thing. We miss you, Jay. We miss you, Jay. RIP, J, RIP, RIP to a rule one. Misbehaving.

Running through the house with a pickle in my mouth. Miss be behaving. If we do a single podcast without using that, like, clip, I'm going to be really disappointed in us. It happens every time just whenever someone's misbehaving. So, yeah, we're probably going to use it every time. I always try to make sure to get the ham horn in. And I always want to try and get the, like a cheer or a boo.

Well, we got both. I've got a really good one. Yeah, I've got a good ending. I don't think I've used yet. It's going to be, it's going to be stemy. It's going to be real stem. Is it? Will it be stymulating?

I love it. It'll be steamy. Boo. This is the punch. Yes. Peter, you're giving us so many good sound clips. Yeah, I'm actually going to take a couple of these. Great.

Yeah, let me just like rattle off a couple of reactions for you. Do you? Should we just have a... What? Feel free to use that one. Now, now sad. Aw. God.

Okay. And can we get like fear? Oh, God. That was great fear. That was really creepy. That was really good. We should have guests with good mics more often. We'll do voices.

I'll just invite all of my audio nerd friends on. Hey, you have a good mic. Yeah, when you guys do. the episode on ASMR, feel free to bring me back. Do you have an ASMR mic with the ears on them? I don't. I just have this mic, which is a horrible vocal mic, to be honest. It's a mic that's supposed to pick up sound everywhere.

It's one of those mics. Yeah, it's omnidirectional. Is that your Peloton mic? Yeah, it's really good for picking. This is the Peloton mic that I use, yeah, because it's the only good mic that I have. I also have an SM 58, but that's, you know, not appropriate for that. setting. It also doesn't sound really good. No. Wait, Peloton, like the

exercise bike? Yeah, so this is not something you brought me on for this channel, or for this podcast, but, so I have, I've started my own, I should, and I'm going to, right now. So, yeah, I started my

own DIY Peloton channel where I just set up a Twitch stream and then I ride my stationary bike and then I yell things. Mostly, I yell, the word Peloton a lot. I talk about the journey that we're all on. I tell everybody that they're strong and powerful and have inner beauty. And then I try to remember what Agamben's becoming community is about. And then I yell half-remembered quotes from that. And I do that once a week. It's very good.

Like you may be thinking to yourself, it's bad. That's a bad idea. But I would like you to consider that it's actually good. It's pretty good, actually. It's pretty solid entertainment. You do it for like 30 minutes. Yeah, 30 minutes, Tuesday. You know, 30 minutes, Tuesday, rotate the times. You know, I do a morning session, an afternoon session, and evening session.

I usually don't have more than four people watching at a time. There was one where zero people were on for the first 23 minutes and then my mom signed in. And so it was just seven minutes of like built up like, I need to yell something. And so it was just shouting motivational phrases at my mom, which is like, it's weird because like this is of all the things that I've done in my life, as somebody who's been a musician and an actor and a playwright and all these different things, like this is the one thing where mom is like, I'm going to show up to every single thing that you do and I'm going to support you in this DIY Peloton channel.

Like she hasn't seen me play music for like 20 years. that's not true 15 years but like Peloton she is all in on the DIY Peloton and is like on like literally every stream and I've made it a rule that I'm going to do this until either I streamed to

no one which I've come close multiple times or Peloton sends me a cease and desist which I don't think they care about it so they're or they don't even know about it probably the latter so my mom is like

keeping me doing this like week after week after week. And there's been like times where I just want to do something else. And I've gotten so close to being able to quit. And then my mom shows up and I just can't disappoint my mom with my DIY. Well, you're about to get the library. But only for DIY pelotoning. Yeah, you're about to get the library punk bump.

Yeah. Yeah, which is great. Like, I mean, if we want to look at my research gate stats and you can see like how many reads I've gotten on this paper versus. everything else I've done. Like, you guys are really good at, like, bumping my shit. So, like, this is really all I'm here for. So more people will, you know, bump my research gate stats.

But also now they can a bunch my Twitter feed. So, you know, win-win. And your Peloton stream. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we'll put it all in the show notes and people can find it. It's great. Yeah. So there's a question we try to end with.

Because our mortal enemies are very serious. people. Yes. And so in fully automated luxury gay space communism, would we still have maker spaces or are they inherently sort of like a liberal institution? Oh, God. Probably should have written that out so you could have read it beforehand. No, I like, I want you to say it again, though. Like what, so what's the, what's the gay space communism? How is this? Fully automated luxury gay space communism. fully automated luxury gay space communism yeah yeah yeah that's what we live by utopia yeah okay topia so Todd rungren album so like the actual this is the actual thing and not like Elon Musk stealing

the idea and making it happen but it sucks no no this would be this would be real communism not liberal communism great lovely uh so yeah would we still have maker spaces or are they are they outcome of capitalism and that would fade away. Basically asking if we should just, you know, how required are they in our, in our lives? I'm going with no. Gay-based communism does not have maker spaces. And I'm thinking the reason they go away is, I think step one, the concept of making disappears. like capital M making,

but also I think, you know, that translating into like lowercase M making. Like that doesn't become like you makes, people still make stuff and making happens. But like the, the understanding of that term and the weight that it has and like, I'm going to like sit down and make stuff.

I'm going to be a maker. Like that dissolves. I think that goes away. Yeah. You're only doing essential labor. Right. essential work really yeah yeah you're just you're doing the things that you need to do um and i think the other thing that happens with that is the the the the crux of maker spaces and the maker movement

i think is this understanding of developing community through this process of hands-on making and tinkering and things like that, right? Like these, you know, a makers, this idea of like a maker space would have fallen apart if that, if that wasn't there, there needs to be a reason for people to go to these maker spaces. And if it's just, I have this idea and I need to make it, people are going to show up and they're going to make a thing and they're going to, they're going to bail. But if makerspaces as this sort of social phenomenon, like part of that is this community building and part of this is the social, the socializing that happens once you have a community

people together that are doing, you know, a thing as a group, you know, that community or practice idea that, you know, maker space is promote. And in gay space communism, I don't think that you need, like, a place for that to happen, right? I think that this idea of community within a utopian society, that's everywhere, right? And you have this, you have space to make community and form community constantly and around you. And so having that base, having a place to build community for an idea that no longer exists, like does not make sense within gay space communism. So I think for those reasons, I am going to argue in the negative and say that maker spaces are gone from our gay space commune that exists in the future.

That makes sense. And the reason we always ask is because once you have like a vision of a possible future, you can start to say, well, how could we implement some of that now? And so what community spaces can we build that aren't capital M maker spaces? Yeah. Can we have a community shed? And can we have, you know, but, you know, same way with people do, you know, like, tailgate clinics and stuff, taillight clinics.

So people aren't getting pulled over by the cops. And, you know, these things exist, but it's very hard to find public space anymore. Yeah, there's a, there's a paper and discourse that came out last year. by Hollett and Vivoni were the two writers that wrote about it. Another education article, but they're talking about the notion of DIY outside of making context and talking specifically about this within education literature where DIY is specifically a maker thing.

Like that's sort of co-opted. Those terms have gotten glued together in the past 10 or so years. But they're studying skate parks and making skate parks and comparing the skate park that was made by the town, like the official skate park, and then the skate parks that are just like a bunch of planks of wood that people got, and they set it up in an abandoned parking lot, that sort of idea. And talking about how the types of learning that happened that people want to have happened are happening within these contexts, the same things that are happening within maker spaces,

but we're also seeing this community forming that happens and sort of all these other different things that are bubbling up because people are working outside of a neoliberal, context to rethink urban space and, you know, all those cultural geography and things like that. So, yeah, so I think that there's this idea that maker spaces, like, for in a lot of ways, makerspaces are a stopgap, right? This idea of like, if this is the future that we want, what can we do right now to make that happen? How can we create a space to build that community?

Maker spaces do that. And that's sort of the beauty of a maker space. but also like it's not if if if that's the thing that it does like in the future if we don't need that then we should get rid of it and so I think that makerspaces are very much like a temporal solution to a temporal problem assuming that our society is going to go in the right direction which is not an assumption that anybody can make at any point because society is horrible despite you know uh you know assertions from certain past presidents that the history arcs in the direction of whatever the fuck Obama said.

I don't even know. But yeah. And so yeah, I think it's a solution for a problem that exists right now, but right now isn't going to be forever. And so we'll see what happens with makerspaces in the future. Yeah. And it keeps us, questions like that, I think, are really important because they're the one way that we allow ourselves to escape capital.

capitalist realism. It's, you know, how it's, how Mark Fisher wrote, it's easier to imagine the end of the world through alien invasion or nuclear holocaust or it's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism. Capitalism. So if you have, if you had a, but we, if we take one minute to just say, well, what if, then, uh, we can actually free ourselves to, to ask serious questions about what we actually want the world to look like. Yeah. So that's a really good answer. I was, I was expecting you to say, yeah. So I'm glad I went ahead with that. Yeah. I have one final question. Does Great British Bake Off count as a maker space? They're making things and they're building a community. I also want to be a... It's a taco a hot dog.

It has a hot dog in it. No, we're not going there. I think we are also promised talking about Fred Dirst at some point. Fred Dirst, Fred Durst, great librarian rock star or greatest librarian rock star. Yeah.

We went over that last week, though. Steve gets a double show. Well, we had to skip a week on Steve. Yeah. So let's assume that I haven't listened to that episode. Like, obviously I'm a big fan. I have listened to all the episodes. But let's assume for a second that I have not listened

to this particular episode. long time listener first time guest host so what's why is Fred Dirst the librarian like I'm very confused about this and I just need to give me the cliff notes here we got a big friend of the pod

name Steve Feend of the Pod Steve Steve the Feend of the Feend and they're a big new metal Yeah they're a big new metal fan and they just had submitted some questions questions about Fred Durst and whether or not you think if any of our guests have opinions on Fred Durst and his status as a librarian, Rockstar.

Let me tell you that question. Whether it's great or greatest. Yes, great or greatest. That question sent me into like a Wikipedia spiral reading about Fred Durst. I got like a whipped back to like early high school there. So thank you for that Steve. I had a very nostalgic morning. I really respect people who have decided that like the the odds have just not. Yeah, that's my best friend is like that. We sit around and we watch the video Limp Biscuit playing in the 7th Heaven parking lot in Blue Springs, Missouri. Someone had posted to Facebook. They were still a young brand. I think Wes Borland was not wearing any kind of body altering face paint, but he was still really ripping it on base there.

So, Peter, any thoughts? Okay. Great British Bakeoff is not a maker space. I'm going to argue this. And I'm going to argue it mostly because it is a competition. And I think that diminishes a number of the aspects of maker spaces that make them what they are. If this was a situation where everybody was showing up at the tent, there was just a bunch of ovens, there was a bunch of immersion blenders, there was a whole big old pile of flour and eggs. And people could just like make whatever the fuck they wanted.

and then Paul Hollywood could make whatever the fuck he wanted and eat whatever the fuck he wanted, that hell yeah, great British Bakeoff would be a maker space. The problem is that I think there's too much direction that happens and there's too much competition that happens. So it doesn't create space for people to work together and to build that collaborativeness that I think is sort of supposed to be at the foundation of maker spaces. Now, you could argue that there's a lot of makerspaces that probably get into this weird competitive mode where people are individually doing the other things and that it's not happening.

So I guess I'll, you know, as I'm thinking through this as I'm talking, I'm going to amend my answer a little bit and say that either Great British Breakoff is not a maker space or it's a really shitty one. And it could be great, but I want this to like, the reality show format needs to shift. It needs to shift from the competition model to more of like the real world model where it's like a bunch of British people hanging out getting real and having an opportunity to just like make some fucking cakes or some cookies or whatever the fuck they want. And then Paul Hollywood just kind of shows up and hangs with all these folks. I watch that. I would too. Like I want to know the real Paul Hollywood.

I want him to just like, you know, cut loose. You know, let's let's, let's, uh, let's get real with Paul. I heard that during the quarantine season. Let's get him drunk and film him. When they were in the bubble most recently, he just like brought a pizza oven and just made a fuck ton of pizzas. Like I, like I just want to sit back and get drunk and eat pizza with Paul Hollywood. Thank you.

Thank you for your very serious answer to my absolute bullshit question. Oh, it's, it's the, it's the best thing to do. Like either give me a serious question. and I'm going to give you a bullshit answer or give you a bullshit question I'm going to give you a serious answer. Like those two things can never match. That does seem to be what happens whenever we do this. Yeah. Which is why I'm the bad boy of the learning sciences.

I'm never going to answer these questions seriously. Come on, man. Dude. Yeah. I'm also, I'm the mysterious figure of the learning sciences as well. Who's that shadowy figure in the back that just brought up Foucault? Oh, see, that's like everyone at a library conference is bringing up Foucault now. That's kind of passe now.

Yeah. Yeah. Education finally found post-humidism. That's something that I learned at the conference that's happening right now. And they've already gotten to the point where they're like, post-humanism is just white person bullshit, which is like, I love that it took like literally a month of like maybe like a year. Like a year ago, like the special issue about post-humanism came out. and like the next conference is already like, this is some white colonizer bullshit.

Let's just, you know, get past us already. Let's step over this. Yeah, yeah. Which I say is somebody who writes about post-humanism on a regular basis. Cool.

What else? What else are we doing? Fred Durst. You haven't answered the question. Yeah. Okay. So we're, so talking new metal librarians here.

Why is Fred Durst the new metal librarian? I feel like there's much better new metal figures. Okay. So yeah. If we were going to pick on. Yeah. If you were going to pick a, which new metal figure do you think would make the best librarian? So my immediate thought of search tanking in from system of a down.

But I feel like that's mostly because I like his politics. But then I have to ask myself, like, are the politics, do I like those politics? Does being a good librarian line up with the politics that I have and that understanding of politics? So I feel like I don't know that for sure. I don't, I'm not as somebody who isn't a library expert, I feel, I feel like I would still vote for search tankie. And even though I feel like if he said, who would be the best person from New Metal to do anything, I'd probably say search tanking for a lot of ways.

Runner up vote would probably be Tom Arello. I think he's insufferable. I can love Tomarillo so much. Yeah. Oh, God. I just, I can't stand him. I just can't stand him. as like an individual.

But I also think he would make an excellent librarian. That's why he, that's why he'd make a great librarian is because he's fucking insufferable. Yeah, I think so. I just like sucks that it's like, he's also like, and he writes such good fucking riffs. Like,

let's talk about the fucking riffs in the RIFs. That's why I love him so much. They're just good fucking rifts. Rifts for days. They slap so hard. Just so hard. Rifts. He still has that big dick.

I was not expecting that. I just found it. Left and uploaded it. Beautiful. I love it. That was really well-timed. How I feel about Tom Raleigh's riffs. Yeah.

And then last nomination for new medal librarians. I will nominate all of the members of Kitty, both past and present. just because I feel like they're the types of people that take their jobs very seriously and they do it incredibly well, but it's not about being in the spotlight or just like shoving your face in front of people all the time. It's just they just do what they do and they do it incredibly well. And that's, you know, that's their approach to life. And so I would love to have Kitty be librarians. And again, this is the thing where it's like, I'd probably vote Kitty to like do any job if we're talking to new metal people. But, you know, I feel like that translates to libraries as well.

Okay. Well, I think we can wrap up. Hang on the line. I'm going to play us out with some steamy stuff. And then once we end the call, the upload should be done in a second. So thanks, Peter, for coming on. Yeah, thanks very. I really appreciate it.

I think people are going to love this one. Good night. Stand by for the software transmission. You better start your recorders now. Goodbye and see you next week from Earl's Court.