librarypunk - 017 - Technoprivacolutionism

Episode Date: July 1, 2021

We’re talking about surveillance, ubiquitous computing, AI, printer problems, and labor with this week’s guest Callan (eminencefont). https://twitter.com/eminencefont Outback Wish House https://bkfst.org/  Users at the Center of Everything: Service Design in Rapidly Changing Libraries  Responding to Rapid Change in Libraries: A User Experience Approach | ALA Store   Articles and other links Goodbye, ALA | At The Intersection  https://seadoubleyew.com/630/maintaining-curation-lessons-from-an-ipod-in-2021/  https://abolitionistlibraryassociation.org/  Critical Library Performativity: Toward Progressive Change in Academic Library Management and Organizations https://cjal.ca/index.php/capal/article/view/34402  Allied Media Conference: AMC2022  Defend Dissent – Open Textbook   https://www.versobooks.com/books/3717-automation-and-the-future-of-work  https://twitter.com/lib_rev  https://libraryfreedom.org/

L.O.L. Donald Rumpsohn is dead. My name is Justin. I'm Skalkanlcom library. My pronouns are he and him. I'm Sadie. I'm an IT administrator at a public library. My pronouns are she and they. I'm Carrie. I'm an academic health sciences library. And my pronouns are she her. And we have a guest. Would you like to introduce yourself? Sure. I'm Callan. I use the she series pronouns. And I am the director of a small academic college library in Massachusetts. It doesn't end. We're very congratulatory.

That's good. I really thought it was shorter than that. I didn't put together a segment, but does anyone have thoughts about ALA? They want to share? Just open it up to their room. April Hathcock finally snapped. The silence was astounding. Yeah.

Can't blame her. Nope. That is a long time coming. I really want to have her on to talk about ALA. Well, I didn't watch most of it because, well, ALA, but also I contributed an on-demand session for which I had to pay $75. Wait, wait. You have to pay an APC to come on here. I had to, yeah, it was.

Yeah, tell everyone how much you paid to come on here, Callan. Oh, man, I can't, I can't disclose that. And the writer, I said I would not disclose that on the air. made you sign in NDA. Yep. I've been working on MOU for this for for for guests. MOU NDA. ALA.

IUD. SOS. IED. R-I-P. Donald Rumsfeld. Ronald Rumsfeld is dead. It's really hard to get big to say library in those AI generator voices. Like they.

don't understand the word library. So I tried like Hank Hill and I tried like 20 different people. None of them can say the word library. Huh. Did they say livery? Can you spell it library? Can you spell it out phonetically to get them to say it? I tried library and that didn't work either.

Can you try library? Hmm. Library. Maybe. Our first critique of AI. So when I was a kid, I had this like, movie production software CD-ROM

and it had these little characters and you would type in the dialogue and then it would feed them out for it to say it in their little robot voices. And I figured out how to type out words phonetically to get them to say things. So like me and my brother made a satire about

the Clinton impeachment trial with it. And we had a Ken Star character that was handing out subpoenas. And so we spelled subpoena correctly. And obviously it didn't understand the word subpoena.

So we had to spell out subpoena. Like, so P-E-N-A didn't read it out correctly. So we had to figure out all this phonetic spelling to feed into the robots to get them to say the words we wanted them to say. So I know, I think we're going to talk about. about AI later and I just want to interject here by saying that in the 20 to 25 years that have passed since that probably happened. A.I. has not gotten appreciably better. I know, which is incredible. Despite what Ray Kurzweil wants you to believe. Oh, fuck Ray Kurzweil. Yeah. Yeah. He made some cool sense. That's about it.

Screw the Turing test. When AI can say library correctly, then, I I'll maybe start paying attention. I know, right? When AI knows how to say subpoena correctly, then get at me. And not when AI knows how to not be a lady. I think my favorite example of stupid AI has got to be Google Maps reading Malcolm X Boulevard as Malcolm 10 Boulevard. Back to Dallas, I was driving my best friend and I were driving around in Dallas. and the GPS says

MC Kenny instead of McKinney Street. Whoa. Yeah. Which is another great GPS buffoonery. I think my favorite maybe other than

like the standard favorite, like the daily thing that comes up all the time is the proceed to the route thing, which is like I'm asking you to give me a route to go on. I can't proceed to it. Until you tell me where it is, because if I put it into you is, hello, how do I find the way to this place? And it says, you figure it out, honey. I just winked.

That's the universal sound for wink and or finger guns. Can Siri wink? I got my first iPhone a month ago, so. I was reading Carrie's post about iPod and now I want an iPod. Yeah, it's the fucking best. True. Truth. You don't have anything being pushed on you.

It's you're totally liberated from algorithmic control because like shuffle is truly random. You can create your own playlist and then like it's all your own stuff. Yeah. Or whatever you stole, you know. It's yours. I mean, yeah, and you made a good point about like streaming how there's just no curation, which is kind of a parallel to like the big deal problems, which is we offloaded a lot of curation. There's no curation in a big deal. Yeah. So there's no curation in canopy or digital platforms or anything else. And it's just, it's just shit served up to people and like OPEX and everything. Yeah. Oh man.

Are running on the same algorithms. And it's only a matter of time before like OPEX. And I foresee this like OPEX and even discovery layers having a push built into it as well, which is one thing that I was talking about like with streaming platforms and particularly like with consumer grade streaming platforms, there's a major push built into it. it, which is like it does the behavior modification thing, which is that it gets you addicted to the platform by constantly pushing things into you, like, oh, here's your custom curated playlist, or here's your moody lesbian dramas, or here's your cerebral documentaries, right? So everything's being pushed to you constantly because you don't get to curate your library. instead, your behavior is being shaped by the algorithm of the massive content that you have bought into or subscribed into. And I see that happening eventually with library products. Well, that's the, that's very much the paradigm in software design now in 2021.

And this is like in libraries, outside of libraries everywhere. The whole hope is that you continue to act like a computer and a. a predictable machine as much as possible so that things can be most effectively tailored to that machine driven interest base that you've been forced upon. Right. I was really jazzed that like in the talk that we were assigned for homework that you did, but you talked about Shoshana Zubov's surveillance capitalism and she talks a lot about like the framework of Walden 2, which is,

Zimbardo's like shaping of human behavior to like that's so much the ethos of web 3.0 tech behaviors is that you are shaping the behavior to control humanity to you know and that's techno-utopianism in a nutshell essentially yep jumping right in I want to go over like some concepts that you brought up in your talk, which was the first one was disappearing technologies and sort of ubiquitous computing. Could you give us a short definition of what those mean? Right. So the idea of ubiquitous computing is essentially that pretty much everything we do at work, at home, you know, for our jobs, for our enjoyment is in many different sorts of ways,

augmented, facilitated by, or like forced through technology of some kind. And in a library context, which I think sometimes it's a little bit easier to talk about this because it's a little more finite. But if you think about, so one thing that I spend a lot of time thinking about is the need for there to stop being tech librarians. I did scare quotes around that. Because at this point in time, there's no one who is, existing as like a non-tech human in some regard.

Like it, of course, varies from job to job from person to person. But the reality of it is that technology has an incredibly powerful influence over the day-to-day existence that we have, the way that we think about things, we decide things, the way we get from point A to point B, the way that we check books in and out. I mean, all of these things are enabled by technologies. Not even that they're enhanced by or made easier by that. you know, a matter of, you know, if we, let's say at my last job, we had really terrible internet connectivity for whatever reason. And I think the reason is mostly actually that a lot of the cable

lines in that town were subterranean. And so whenever it would rain there or we'd have a lot of snow, the internet service would get remarkably slower or would cut out entirely. Yeah, the rain got in the tubes and it drowned the internet. Exactly. And, you know, people laugh about the series of tubes thing, but there is still, you know, physical infrastructure underneath it. So in the example I was just about to give, like we would have to revert to using online circulation to try to staunch the blow of not being able to have access to our catalogs to be able to check things in and out. And it sounds kind of stupid, but if we didn't have at least that software, which just took

what we were scanning into a spreadsheet that we like just saved it on the computer and then we had to upload it to the catalog once we got back on. online. If we didn't have that, we would have been reverting all the way back to writing things out by hand. And a lot of us don't even know, have never done that, have seen it in action maybe when we were children. But many of us have not worked in a library where that was something that ever was done. And so, you know, even the what we consider to be like the most, you know, level 101 one basic job in the library at this point is just incredibly tech-centric, right? I mean, if you look beyond just the circulation question in this library that I mentioned,

we had barcode scanners, we had RFID pads, we had receipt printers, we had regular paper printers. There's no escaping technology, even if you are not a, quote, library technologist or you're not a quote, you know, reference technology library person or emerging technology librarian. So, you know, take that library example and then multiply that times everything. There's scarcely a profession, scarcely a thing that you buy, a thing that you do, a thing that you use that does not have some kind of technological component to it. And so the problem that ubiquitous computing can kind of create is that we become so reliant upon these things that we don't even really understand where they begin and end.

And we also have very little control over how they are being deployed and designed and used in our lives. And that's where, you know, we can get deeper into algorithmic bias and problems with AI. But ubiquitous computing becomes a problem when there's so much that is being controlled over all these different minute areas of the way that we exist and the way that we live. And we have so little agency over any of those things. And one little last thing I'll kind of staple at the end of this is that I do think that libraries hold an enormous amount of potential power in helping people understand the amount of power they've sort of lost in entering this ubiquitous computing era. And in fact, I would say that for many people, I mean, we are the technology source. You know, we are the one place where they can get online, the one place where they can use computers in the public library world. we also are rapidly becoming, if we aren't already the only public institution that can help people understand things like algorithmic bias and things like the influence that technology has in our lives and why it's not necessarily this beautiful, great techno-utopian future that we were promised in lots of different forms.

I do wonder if libraries can really resist this. The way I'm hearing what you're saying is libraries could let people know about these incursions into their privacy, but it's so ubiquitous that it's really impossible for libraries to cut our ties to vendors that are building surveillance into. Just, for example, publishers really want to track who is using materials now for piracy concerns and also just to probably, hopefully bolster their data vending services. Right. The argument is that we're worried about uncontrolled access. So I really, I hope libraries can do something to fight back, but I'm not. I definitely hear where you're coming from, and I agree.

And, you know, one thing that I point out to people and talks that I give is the study that Cody Hansen did in 2019, where he shows that virtually every electronic journal database provider that he looks into is using third party tracking. There essentially is no way on the modern web to build something on the modern web that isn't going to be tracking you in some way. There are ways to do it, but it's not, it's becoming fewer and farer between to have those things and then also have what people would consider to be like a modern, desirable web 3.0 experience online. And so I think we really do as a profession need to start kind of drawing some pretty serious lines around like what we are willing to continue shilling out money for and what we're not. I mean, I think that there's been a really clear example of some stuff that we really need to reevaluate in the form of Thompson Reuters and Westlaw and LexisNexis and Elsevier.

You know, do we really want to be complicit into like that degree of a global surveillance apparatus? Do we want to be funding deportations and surveillance, you know, in order to deport people, do we want to enable those companies to surveil people and collect those giant globs of data? They're not just library. Like as someone wrote in the notes for the show, they're not just library vendors anymore. And I would argue that when you get to a situation where the company you're shoveling over already what is kind of a compromise of values and like what in fairness right i mean our l severe subscriptions have just gone up and up and up and up and up since i started my job and you know not

only are they price gouging us um but they also are now like essentially making us complicit into this you know military industrial surveillance nightmare i think that we really need to like grow a and like understand that like we need we need to kind of draw some lines around this. And I understand completely the tradeoff argument. You know, there's been a lot of literature on the topic and the profession about deciding not to cancel some of these things because it would undermine the use cases of the patrons that would be losing out if they didn't have access to things like those databases.

And that that's true. But like how much are we telling those patrons like you are part of, this is why we're doing this. We're not just doing this because we don't want you to have access to this nice, wonderful thing that's going to help you get a job in a couple of years. It's because we don't want to be a part of this greater system of surveillance that is in direct competition with our own stated values and ethics. So I know this is not a decision to be taken lightly. I mean, I'm in the middle of dealing with this with Science Direct at my own institution right now. And I know it's extremely hard, but I do think that we really, as a field right now, as we

sort of see, you know, when we have a study coming out a couple years ago that says that none of our products are protecting people's privacy, we really have got to start to collectively push back on some of this stuff. I'm dismayed as usual to see that the usual suspects in the profession are not really taking this on in a way that I feel like they should be. I don't know if we want to dive into the idea of, you know, some of the offshoot organizations and outlets for people to put their energy in as professionals. But I will say that, you know, ALA is someone that should be doing this work,

much as they should have been, you know, fighting for library workers to get vaccinated and fighting for safer work conditions. And they did not do that. So like we need to, yeah, I mean, it's fucking gross. Can I say fuck? Absolutely not. No.

I guess I should have prefaced all of this by asking that. This is a polite podcast. We only say polite words on here like fire truck. This is all for nice white ladies, so speak accordingly. Look at how fucking white we are. Fuck. Well, fuck that shit.

So as a little sidebar here, you all know that I was like castigated for saying fuck in a conference a couple months ago, right? I created a fucking Twitter shit store. The lovely explanatory comma for the uninformed. But I don't want to keep ranting, so I'm going to stop for now and see where we going to next. Carrie, what were you going to say? I was just going to say, come on, don't you know, libraries are neutral. Yeah, and I was going to do a bad comedic break.

I guess we could talk about the, we could skip to organizations that should be doing some of this advocacy work. So what you mentioned in your talk, you mentioned we here, and you also mentioned the Library Freedom Project. I've always wondered, how do you become like a member of Library Freedom Project anyway? That's a great question. I mean, I think we're, the organization is still trying to figure out a sort of like wider deployment of itself in some ways. So the model that the founder of Library Freedom Project, a wonderful human named Alison McRena. The direction that she took things in for the last little while is she did cohorts where people applied to be a part of a cohort that was essentially like a semester long deep dive into library privacy and surveillance related topics.

She partnered with New York University to pull that off. I was in the third cohort, but I also knew Allison from many moons ago because she and I are both Massachusetts people. Or she was briefly in Massachusetts and now she's in Philly. So I think what is happening now is that instead of doing the cohorts, the Library Freedom Project has shifted to doing these short crash courses. And from there, I assume, I mean, there's been some times when we have worked on. So within the larger group, we have a sort of like all. cohort list or that we subscribe to. The four cohorts of us often will work on some particular

thing of interest to us that is going on in the world. So we had one about how COVID impacted library, internet, and technology services. We had another about academic library surveillance. I think that, you know, if you want to become a member, I'm not sure like that there's necessarily a become a member process, but it is an interesting thought to think about how, we could continue to grow this organization because I know some of that cohorting and class-based sort of structure was aimed at creating a smaller set of individuals, and I assume with an eye to kind of keep building that out. I'm doing the crash course right now, actually. Great. Yeah, we'll probably be doing the second one as well. And yeah, it's just basically right now,

it's just the list serve kind of thing. So yeah, I'd really like to see that expand. because I've been following Library Freedom Project for years and was really excited to get in, to finally get in on something on it. Yeah, I think, well, with our, the internet and library technology as impacted by COVID stuff, we created this little subcommittee and it was sort of a perfect example of where we could really use some outside assistance at times. I don't want to speak out of turn in any regard because I know Allison has a very clear and defined vision for this entire endeavor.

But in that particular instance, I think we could have used some assistance from the outside world because all of those of us who were on that subcommittee just ran into a month or two of lots of life changes, lots of stressful stuff going on, and then we all kind of collectively drop the ball. And maybe if we'd had a wider net of folks to work on stuff with, we could have been more effective.

I also think a little bit anecdotally that, like, you know, this is kind of a perfect example, but also I do think that there's a hunger in the field for people to find other things to get involved with aside from ALA or aside from the more traditional buckets where people wind up because I think there's just an enormous amount of dissatisfaction with those organizations that, I mean, for me, the nail in the coffin was the last year and just being in an actual literal life or death crisis and having our professional organization of note just being like, okay. Good luck. See you later.

It was just a bit of a bridge too far. I was just going to say that, well, it is the abolitionist library group just finally put out a website and a list serve, which I'm super excited about. So that's another one to put on the list. They've had the website. They've had the lists serve for a while. And I'm on their prison abolitionist working group, which is. and some stuff. Yeah, I heard with that with that group that when they put their website out,

they immediately had about 500 new subscriptions to the list of like immediately. And so, yeah, I think there's a real hunger. I mean, I saw this too. I began this little offshoot group called Libreve. That was sort of like the byproduct of a conference that I threw together in my living room last year. And that was something like, again, kind of a classic case of, I had the bandwidth and the energy to keep that going and to start that last year,

and then I just completely lost it. So I think that we not only do the kind of the starters and progenitors of these things, like need that assistance, but also there's just so many people out there who are looking for something different and for something that's not just a waste of. I mean, I feel like if folks haven't read April's, April Hathcock's essay about why she left the organization. I feel like it just says it all right there. You know, that there's a very limited amount of change you're ever going to squeeze out of a bureaucratic institution. And it's not

for certain people. It certainly isn't for me. So you mentioned the idea of heterotropic equity work. Since we're talking about things outside of ALA, could you kind of give us an explainer on that? Sure. So this idea came from an article I saw in the Canadian Journal of Academic Librarianship that came out. must have been around winter break because that's literally the only time in the year that I ever read academic journals. And so in this piece, the author Daniel Liebaugh wrote about this idea of heterotopias in the library world as sort of a solve to this. You know, we have these giant bureaucratic systems that just aren't giving us the opportunities and the change that we want to see. So what do we do instead? And she uses the examples of we here, which is an.

entirely BIPAC group of library workers and folks and interested in the profession. And also the Library Freedom Project is another one. She gives us an example. And I think we also kind of saw this arising a little bit informally last year when around the same time as the Libreve stuff happened. There was also a lot of people who kind of united around certain hashtags on Twitter, like hashtag close the libraries, hashtag protect library workers. There was a huge amount of people who were active on on those particular hashtags.

And I was one of the many and we talked a lot amongst ourselves. And that's kind of why the lib rev thing spun off and became the thing briefly. And it's still around. There's still a Slack channel. I just am not like able to administrate it in the way that I would like to. But the whole point of Leebaugh's article is that there essentially what she's saying is we cannot get, we cannot have this, you know, like no giant bureaucratic organization or really any standalone organization is going to just magically solve all these problems and give us this like

change friendly, inclusive, accessible library organization that we want to see. And there's a lot of reasons for that, right? I mean, there's all kinds of institutional debt of different kinds. There's a lot of different people who exist within the umbrella of ALA. We've seen so many different ideological rifts kind of erupting in that group of people over the last few years. And quite frankly, a lot of the people who are in places where their voices are heard in that organization are not radical individuals. They're also not coming to their positions from an anti-oppressive stance. And so there's just not a lot of there there for those of us who really want to see something different. So instead of relying on that one golden goose that's going to

solve all of the library ills overnight. Like we need to sort of develop this, you know, multiple. So like the whole idea of heterotopia is like, you know, hetero multiple different structures that will kind of get us to this more liberatory, more anti-oppressive place instead. And I think that we're in a place where we're starting to see that happen from just sheer brute force of will because people are fucking done with ALA. And they need, they're smart and they're, a lot of them are,

career and they have a lot of passion and they really want to see things change and aLA just does not provide them with those opportunities this is something i was thinking about recently because i don't remember what the name of the conference is but it's a canadian conference and someone made the comment that it's basically entirely radicalized now oh capal yeah capal yeah i present i'm a capel regular yeah it sounds really fun and it's a fucking blast i don't actually know about this Oh yeah, it's the Canadian Association of Professional Academic Libraries, or librarians, and it's like absolutely a totally radical conference. I've gone. Well, yeah, that sounds amazing.

I've gone and presented three times, and it's like totally the best conference in library land. It is absolutely my favorite conference ever. Kapau. Kapal. C-A-P-A-L. C-A-L. Yeah. It's like the best kept secret.

in library land. I was confusing it with choice, which I think is another Canadian. Yeah, there's Willow and Capal. Willu is a library. It's an instruction focus conference and it's still pretty radical. But Capal is like a more well-rounded radical conference. Oh, so they-focused on decolonization and labor and stuff like that. Like Sam Popovich was an organizer one year.

presented and yeah it's pretty rad. I am a big old fan of Capal like well it's the first conference I ever presented at too. They took a chance on me so I'm looking at the website right now

and I see that they are either just did or in the recent past or it was in May yeah it's every yeah every May I see that they joined forces with the Canadian Journal of Academic Librarian which also has, it's like one of the only radical academic library publications that I know of. Yeah.

Yeah. And I submitted a manuscript to them and I really hope it gets published. But some Library Freedom Project folks and I put one in hoping it will happen. But this is good to know about. I am desperate to find radical offshoots in the field because, I mean, my state association where I was kind of putting the bulk of my effort in the last little while. That ain't it. I hate state associations so much. If anybody knows of something equivalent in public libraries, please, please let me know.

If we have any listeners in public libraries, please let me know. You are always welcome. The hope of Librev was that it was going to be something like that. And it could be. It's just, I don't know. I mean, I know everybody had, like, we all had, like, the worst last 15 to 18 months ever. and I just got to a point where I just couldn't do that type of labor anymore. And it bums me out because I know there's such a need for it.

I'm just not the person who can do it. But what I was getting at is I think there's an opportunity to kind of infiltrate and flip some existing conferences that are already sort of accepting of, you know, like labor issues and decolonization issues. and specific indigenous issues. So I would think like the Open Education Conference would be a good candidate because that's very recently been reorganized

into a community project with some pretty leftish people and it's got institutional support. So yeah, rather than like making new conferences, I just think it'd be a good idea to like capitalize everything. Right. I mean, another one that I was really bummed about having to miss last year is the Allied Media Conference, which I never had been to before. And there's an increasing presence of librarians at the conference.

But it's in Detroit. It is interdisciplinary. Definitely check it out if you haven't heard about it. There's a lot of really good sort of like radical leftist liberatory technology focus work being done in that group. And it's, I was dying to go to it. I was really eager to sort of branch out from the usual library stuff. I mean, I do try to go to South.

Southwest every year too for both like professional and non-professional reasons but um I really do like I think that there's a lot to to say for trying to inhabit some of these existing spaces and then also to like branch out from our usual spots because I think I don't know like I'm a person who works with no other librarians right now and an engineering college and it took me a while to sort of prove my importance and relevance in place in their ecosystem, but I did. And I think that we need to kind of start showing up a little bit more and not being off in our own little library corner all the time. No, that definitely makes sense. I was just going to say I've been in Texas three years now. I still haven't gone to South by Southwest because it didn't happen last year. Yeah, I know. I didn't go the first time.

I was going to speak and I was extremely sad. It was like my literal dream come true for a conference speaking and it didn't happen, but maybe next time. Probably for the best. Austin was in a very bad place, like right. Uh-huh. It was, like, Petrie Dish time over there. So, yeah. Sounds like it was very potent and not in no good way.

Like, not in a sexually powerful way. Not a potent potable's way. No way. I don't know if I want to skip this part about threat modeling. Did you have anything you really wanted to say about threat modeling for the library? and library patrons in terms of privacy. This is something we talked about with Dorothy Asallo, and she talks about a lot in terms of assessing what your risk is.

Right. I think the brief version of what I would say to people is that there's a couple really, really great resources out on the web to help with thinking through this stuff if this is something you're interested in. So to give a little bit more explanation behind it, now that a lot of us kind of live in public online, and even those of us who don't necessarily, there's just so many different drag nets of surveillance

that we are trapped within without our knowledge that if people want to try to mess with us or, you know, want to harm us, they can find a lot of information about all of us in order to do that. And this takes a lot of different forms, right? So like one example of this, although I don't know that I would necessarily... Well, no, I think it could be used as a threat modeling exercise.

There was a woman in Philadelphia last summer who set fire to police car, and she was identified using her tattoos and her t-shirt through YouTube videos and Etsy comments. And so that's like that's the, she's, you know, she's been apprehended. I'm sure she's probably serving time because we love the fucking cops in this country. and so that that just is to illustrate a point that all of us have different digital footprints that we're leaving around the web constantly and if somebody wants to kind of like pull us in for for that or things that are not necessarily illegal you know like one example of this that popped into my mind is all of the poll workers that were being harassed at the end of last year there were tons of people who were just like literally like little old ladies going

to do their election day duties who were being stalked and harassed and doxed by freaking Q and people online. And so the idea of threat modeling is to think about like what is out there about you and what is the most, what's the worst stuff for someone to be able to find out about you? And I think for a lot of us, that kind of centers around like your home address, like your cell phone number and then things that would like make you lose your job or your, your livelihood in some other way. And so there's a couple different guides online that I would love to point people to. One is called Speak Up and Stay Safer. And that's from feminist frequency. And that is like a really very easy to read kind of like primer on this topic. And then there's also

Oregon, which Oregon University of Oregon or Oregon State University. One of them has a professor that wrote a like a 70 page free ebook on the topic as well that really dives into the stuff a little more specifically gives a lot of specific technology recommendations. Defend dissent, which is about digital threats to social movements and people who are part of them. So those are those are the two kind of like primers on the topic that I'd point people to. Nice. Also to, I don't know if I have to tell people who listen to this show,

but stop fucking filming at protests. Take your batteries out of your phone. Don't be a damn cop. Turn off your data. You signal. You signal for the love of Christ. Or don't bring your phone. Yeah.

Or don't bring your phone. Yeah. Put that shit in a Faraday cage. Walk away. But it was interesting. I was listening to a podcast by some anti-fascists in Portland. and they were saying the Proud Boys have stopped live streaming their stuff because they know the feds are on to them

and it's just stupid leftists who were the ones still walking around with cameras all the time. Well, I mean, and that's like honestly, it's sad, but that kind of illustrates the whole point of this, right? Because the Proud Boys had to enter like a whole new level of subterranean disgusting cesspit after what happened after January 6th. And so they've gotten wizened up to how they can continue to do their little freak show and different venues in a way that I don't know that other groups necessarily have. And that's bad.

We don't want them to outsmart us on things like this. Yeah. Don't be dumb than the proud boys. Yep. They don't masturbate. No. Don't be dumber than people who don't masturbate. This is the hill carry will die on.

I mean, unless you're like genuinely like, not into sex, then that's fine. I understand that. But like, if you're into sex and you don't masturbate, don't be a proud boy. Yeah, what the hell? Yeah. Happy hump day, everybody.

Dudes will literally join the proud boys, then go to therapy. Unless you're a proud boy. You know, are they going to come at us now? I don't know. Don't me to like bleep out your name. because they listen to our library podcast. No, I mean, you got to be digging pretty deep, I guess. It's fine.

If they haven't found me already. You talked about something I thought was pretty interesting about AI. That's good. Yeah. I was like it when I talk about things that are actually interesting. No, we just thought everything you said was really fucking boring and you paid a bunch of money. We just had you muted without even knowing it. You just paid us $600 to be on this podcast.

Oh, so you can say it, but I can't. All right. Yeah, it's your writer, not mine. That's legit. Carrie's an independent contractor. I glue all this furniture to the fucking ceiling before I get out of here. Don't jizz on my ceiling calendar. God, now I've got to keep that in the episodes so people know what you're talking about.

Or not. I mean, I don't think that. That was a pretty good... Was that actually in this episode? Did we... I mean, I was going to cut it. Yeah. Was it being recorded?

I don't know. I don't know if I started recording that. We'll find out later on library punk. But the part you... You can put it in the show notes. Yeah. Watch devil, man, cry, baby. There's a scene.

You'll get what we're talking about. So the AI as... It sort of ties into this whole conversation we're having more we're kind of serving the systems instead of the system serving us. And you were saying how AI is always used as a way to like mitigate labor, but why not use it to augment labor? So make things easier for people with disabilities or make things, you know, because you can't have a reference bot just do a reference librarian's job.

Like it's not going to work. Right. It won't know what a subpoena is. Exactly. I found zero results for subpoena. L.O.L. Donald Rumsfeld is dead. Did you know that Donald Rumsfeld is survived by the love of his life? The Iraq War. Yeah. Sorry.

Mission accomplished. Did you know... Speaking of IEDs. Never mind. No, please say what you're going to say. I will not say what I... Because I will cut it. On the internet.

God damn it. All right, anyway, back to AIs. So I'm actually... in a demo right now for a personal AI company that I heard about on Trash Future where they were making fun of it because it's it's like funded by like the Saudi foreign wealth fund or something. Like it's it's one of those things that's clearly. Yeah. So it's one of those things that's like clearly going to become like a scam or something.

Great. And so I signed up for it. And I had to talk with the CEO to get my AI activated. And he was like, how did you hear about us? And I was like, oh, it was a podcast where they were making fun of how this is clearly a scam. They don't say the name of it. If I did, he probably would have known because I think they're a pretty popular podcast. But what it does is you can put all these sort of memory stacks into it and then use it to recall things later, which is like great for me because like I am constantly taking notes.

I have like two junk journals, like one for work, one for my life. And it would be nice if that was a little automated. And it just made my life a little bit easier where it could just pick up things. It records when I tell it to. So, like, I've got control over it for now. I imagine when it goes public, it will be much more invasive. You mean when your journals go public? I'm going to publish them.

No, I mean, the AI is going to leak them. It can, I guess. I don't know. It's in the blockchain, which I was told it was very secure. Did you not pay attention to what Dorotheel said? with a blockchain. Yeah, my data is in a blockchain. Yeah, man.

As far as I understand it is an encrypted text file. Your journals, your journals are public. You know, you can get blockchain chickens now. Nice. Your mom's a blockchain chicken. They say block, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's true. It's not false.

That's how I know about it. You learn from your family. That's all I'm going to say. I'm the daughter of a blockchain chicken. there's a lyric for your next song. That's my band right there. I'm the daughter of a blockchain chicken. Oh man.

It would be like fetch the bolt cutters ask like because I was thinking it was going to be like a weird ambient like noise situation. But I also could get with it being like Fiona Apple. Yeah. It's like a soulful situation. It's like I think that's like the situation where you're poor. I think that's like the situation when you pour your heart out. Okay. That's fair.

In like a like a bear singer-songwriter situation. Or it's like a confessional rap. Oh, boy. Well, the library world really needs more of those. Absolutely not. Oh, I deleted the carry rap. Oh, crap. Good.

I do actually delete drops once in a while. So yeah, the idea of like an AI that actually works for you and is like helpful and is under your actual control, and you could actually control the data and use it, you know, in the way that I would like to use it, which is as a journal that is a little bit smarter than a word document. Well, there's so much to say about this. I'm trying to think of what level to start on, but I think like one of the biggest answers I have to this that comes to mind for me in terms of how AI is being envisioned and mapped out is that the people designing it are a very certain subset of human beings Fucking weirdos.

Yes, who have a very particular perspective on how the world works. And that perspective means they want more dollars for their crappy VC to continue to exist. And so they're going to look for very different types of metrics and stories to tell in order to continue to trick people into blowing tons of money into their shit that doesn't work. That's one part of it. The other thing is that we have this wild AI mythos in our, our culture that we just cannot shake that, you know, Hal 9000-esque, like, vision of, you know, that type of intelligence that becomes sentient on its own, decides to destroy all the humans. You know, even if it doesn't destroy all the humans, we have this idea that we are going to

create an artificial intelligence that is truly an artificial intelligence and not what we're calling that right now, which is mostly like machine learning and natural language processing, not necessarily an artificial intelligence. So, we, we're just a very much. So, we, We have a very disconnected vision from where we are right now that we just will not let go of. And the reason why we don't let go of it is because the people who are in charge of the biggest tech companies on the earth will not stop peddling that vision. And these people just, I mean, you know, I love engineers. I work in a college full of engineers.

I think they're wonderful people. But there's also a very solutionist-oriented mindset among these folks. And there's also a very innovation-hungry, mindset amongst these folks. And they very much want to push towards the future that they kind of have already decided exists. And when you kind of factor in the extreme homogeneity of the people who are creating the technologies in question, I mean, at this point, they still are predominantly upper middle class white males who went to a very select set of schools. They are not, they don't give a flying fuck about what the common man would benefit from in terms of AI. What they see instead

is we want to turn that cashier at McDonald's into a computer because we can sell those computers and make bank and keep the VCs happy. And the thing that is really, really tragic about that is that logic has pervaded libraries as well. And I cannot resist the urge to tear apart a particular library in Massachusetts where we saw this unfold in the last year. And the director in question is no longer in this position. Thank God for the people who work there. But there was a director in a town that's about 20 miles north of Boston that wanted to lay off all of their staff, all of their library staff, librarians, like reference librarian circulation staff, because they were going to automate the library. This building is huge. This building is huge.

It was recently renovated. It's like, I don't know, at least 20, 25,000 square feet. They were tragically understaffed from the outset, but they were thinking that they were somehow going to be able to run this library with self-checkout machines and an automated materials handler and just walk away and that be it. And the reason why this person wanted this was not only her own little obsession with AI and her vision of what the tech giants petal,

that she's fully bought into herself, but also that she doesn't want to be a manager. She doesn't want to actually deal with human beings and be in charge of them and be in charge of their welfare and deal with the union that has to push back and has some solidarity and some kind of power over her. So that's, I know this is not the only example of this that has happened in our field either.

I know there was at least one other library. I think in Michigan, Farmington, is that Michigan? I don't know. But there was another one where a very similar thing happened, this, you know, hot to trap, innovative person, change maker, you know, blah, blah, blah, came in with a very similar vision to automate the library. And this repulsives me on multiple different levels. One is that.

Oh, yeah, I was going to say we did talk about something like this that was due to COVID in San Francisco. I've been trying to get the people involved in the community on this show, but I think they've had some pickups with their advocacy. So, but yeah, we talked about how they wanted to do fully self-printing, which printers always break. So that, I mean, you can't even get a printer to run autonomously. You can't run a whole fucking building. It's just so stupid.

I can't even with that. I can't even. And the doors were automated. So if you lose your electricity, like, you can't get in, I guess. Like, I was watching some TikTok where, like, it was like, people are. showing off their ultra wealthy, like, homes. And, like, everything in their house is... Oh, yeah, the TikTok.

The TikTok mansions. Yeah. And so they were saying, like, oh, yeah, the glass is bulletproof. But, like, everything in their house is a smart appliance. So they can't deal if they lose electricity. Right. I want a door that opens when the power is off. So, like, it's very funny how, like...

I remember when we had the Texas blackout, because I was on the internet a lot because I didn't have anything else to do except sit there and freeze. There was a guy who was talking about how his brother was like a prepper and his mom was getting mad at him for making fun of his prepper brother

because he had like 10,000 cans of food or whatever but they only had an electric can opener. And so they were in the Texas blackout and they couldn't open their food. It was literally that thing from the, from like the Simpsons or whatever where he's just like trying to open a can. It's like, I'm just,

so hungry. Oh my god. So the other like addendum to this rant that I want to throw out there because I think it's important is that there is no answer to what do we do with these automated jobs once the people who are in them are automated out of working. No one who is working in big tech gives a fuck about that. And if you look at sort of these like universal basic income proposals that pop up from people like the Yang Gang, you know, like that, they want to give people like $1,000 a month.

Cool. Awesome. I live in Boston. Yeah. I can get some Narragansit to worth a thousand dollars a fucking month. That's about it. That'll pay my rent though, so.

That's cool. You know, you know, for $900 in Kansas City. I don't know the housing market in Kansas City, so I have no idea if that's a joke. That's a meme. Come on, guys, don't you know that for $900 in Kansas City meme?

It's a bad real estate meme. It's a really bad niche real estate meme that only, I guess, like, five people know about. So, cool. Yeah, sorry. Well, you know what you can give for $900 in Boston? A fucking Coke. You can get one of these. A red sacks ticket.

One of these closets behind me. A packing ticket. A pack and spot. Yep. You could get at my last place, you could get a parking spot for four months for $900. Yay. Anyway, universal basic income is like a great idea, except that all of the people, again, who are in charge of trying to decide how we meet these things out are people who have absolutely no understanding of what people need to live off of. So I will throw out another recommendation for a wonderful book called The Automation and the Future of Work by Aaron Beninov.

And he makes a very compelling point about how we have just completely overlooked this part of the conversation and that the universal basic income solution is like a semi-solution. It's not. It doesn't, a big part of what he tries to tease apart in there is exactly this disconnect between what you're talking about, Justin, with like, I want this thing to help. help me. I want this thing to assist me and make me better at things. There seems to be no room for that narrative in this conversation. It's just like in all or nothing, we got to make everybody into a computer at McDonald's tomorrow, you know, not how do we, in the case of libraries, I mean, at my last library, I worked at a very, very busy public library system. We would have benefited enormously from having an automated materials handler, but we would still have had tons of work to do.

And it would have freed us up to be able to work with people more closely and to be better customer servants. And we need to think about, like, if those of us who are in director jobs and are advocating for that kind of increased automated technology, need to think through, what are we doing this for? Are we just doing this because we saw that some library and wherever the fuck that was printed about and library journal or information today did it? Or are we doing it because our staff could actually use this assistance?

and we want to be able to lessen the burden. Like in the case of Brookline, like, you know, you could get, there are a lot of benefits to automated materials handlers. I'm not going to fight that. You know, you reduce repetitive stress injuries. You can free people's attention up on the circulation desk where they can focus on helping people and guiding them through the building and talking to them a little bit more personally. But the idea there is like, you know, we should not be thinking about how to displace our people.

You know, we should not, directors in this profession should not be sitting in our little you know, three floors above the work floor offices, never opening our doors and just being like, you know, Mr. Burns, essentially, and just like trying to like turn our minions into robots so we don't have to deal with them as people. I would like libraries to feel like they can avoid those prattfalls that we see happening in like giant businesses. But unfortunately, there are people in the field that are more than happy to abdicate their managerial responsibilities and stick a touchscreen in there instead. And, you know, another thing, too, to your point about accessibility, these things, like a lot of these solutions and libraries are not accessible. They're just not. I mean,

self-checkouts are not. You know, a lot of them don't come with any sort of voice-assisted use modes or, you know, abilities. A lot of them only have one language. A lot of them force you to actually translate all of their language, all of their English prompts and text into other languages yourself. I actually had to do that at my last job. Luckily, for me, I worked in a place where we had people who spoke with languages. But there's also like the whole like keyless or like automated entry stuff. That stuff is not only extremely prone to security breaches and like all kinds of just, I mean, God damn, people like, who designs this? Do they work with the public? Have they ever worked in a public? I just like, I don't understand it. It's like,

that the whole printer, like the self-managed printer thing. I mean, I was the assistant director who was also the chief technology officer at these three libraries that I worked at before. And I think I spent at least 50% of the time that I was at these libraries fixing printers. So like, what the fuck? I just, I don't understand it. I don't understand it. There's this joke I've seen going around in like IT stuff and it's like you spin. 10 hours automating something that takes 15 minutes to actually do. And it's that. It's like you're going to have this great print system that's going to work flawlessly. And then it turns out you're just doubling your time on it because now it's extra fucking complicated. So. And they and that's another,

that's another thing too is the usability of this stuff is not like I mean, yeah, sure. Okay, you have your fully automated printing system. We had a pretty user-friendly printing system at Brookline that wasn't fully automated. I still had to help, you know, tons of people. If I was ever around, if I was ever within striking distance of a printer, I got bombarded by people with help, who needed help copying something, putting money in the machine, breaking a 20. Like, there was never a time when I could just walk away and not have to deal with it. You know, which is not to say that I don't, I didn't not, like, I certainly did not want to deal with those printers. That's absolutely true. But I know from investing in,

in better printing technology that was like about the top of the line of what we could afford, that an automated version of that is only going to create a thousand more headaches for me, right? So like, why would I do that? Yeah, that's usually my go-to example of why you can't automate anything is just printers. Because like they are impossible to be self-service. Like they just don't work for the public. Did you ever listen to that reply all episode about why printers are so shitty? No. I mean, does it have something with IP and locks or something?

It was more to, it's more to do with paper being an inconsistent size. And the other thing is that apparently the inner mechanics of printers has not changed very much since their creation. But they're expected to do way, way higher volumes of printing than they were when they were first invented. And so they just get worn out really, really fast. Plus the inconsistencies and paper lead to all the jams all the time. That makes sense. Oh, and they've gotten smaller and smaller while trying to cram in the same mechanics, too. And that's also created issues.

Yeah, we had, I was so happy at my last job that we still had, like, basic black and white printers just around that people could print to because those worked all the time. There was always the three and one machines that never fucking work. Oh, my God. Oh, yeah. Three and one machines, like a death sentence. Yeah. Oh, my God. Those are such garbage.

There was like this HP page wide pro 447 DW was the I know the fucking model name because it's like scarred onto my heart forever. This thing sucked the life out of me. I feel like you know how I don't know if anyone else does this or just some weird thing that I do, but I often think about like if I work in a certain area for a long time and I cross and there's like an intersection that I have to cross all the time. I think about how many hours of my life collectively. have I been in this intersection, have I waited at this intersection? And this is kind of like that except for it's like how many hours of my life did I spend trying to fix the HP, page wide pro 447 DW?

Because I'm pretty sure that like all of the time I spent at every intersection that was near any other place of work that I've ever worked in in my entire career is smaller than the amount of time that I spent trying to fix that motherfucking printer. So yeah, automate it away. Have fun. It's not going to work. no one's going to buy your shit. You're going to burn some, like if someone tries to do some hot to trot printing automation

stuff, they'll sell it to one library. That library will get hell of piss. They'll tell everybody and no one will buy it. So go for it. Have fun. So what can people do in terms of, I guess specifically like library workers, what can we do? Can we envision a web 4.0 world that is privacy and agency focused? Like, are consumer choice is effective? Like, as library workers, what can we do?

And I also mentioned, like, sparks tracking of surveillance by library vendors. Like, what's, how do you see the future playing out in library activism? Well, I think that we have actually seen a couple good corporate moves towards at least a marketing ploy around privacy. And I'm thinking specifically about Apple. But that said, they have really done a lot of fighting and work on the back end to actually make things like their privacy labels possible. They've also gotten on all kinds of fights with Google and other companies trying to get them to disclose all the things that they do collect about all the data they do collect about people who are using their services. And I certainly am not here to to Apple's Horn by any stretch of the imagination. I hate all of the big tech companies.

I hate all of the surveillance capitalized companies with equal fervor. But I do think that there is at least a market appetite for some of this stuff. Because I think Apple is banking on people's interests in privacy with a lot of what they're selling. And even if that's not great in the sense of like fuck capitalism, it is nice to see that people, you know, are voting with their dollars in this way. because I think that does speak to a larger desire for some education and some reform around these issues. So that being said, I think in the library space, we do need to think about how groups like Spark and maybe even branching out to groups like the Electronic Frontier Foundation, fight for the future is another one, who do have kind of library contingent interests

on how we might explain the problem to those groups if they don't know already and try to do some activism around this that doesn't just focus exclusively on libraries. Because I will say that, you know, as somebody who works in a very small school, it is difficult to convey the urgency around some of these matters to my faculty colleagues. And that said, if I was able to do so, I'm, you know, I think there would be a lot of buy-in. I think there would be a lot of interest and passion around it. It's just sometimes there are these walled gardens we get kind of slotted into and siloed into. And similarly, too, I think there's just, a major lack of solidarity between academic and public libraries that I would like to obliterate

as someone who has pogoed back and forth between them for my entire career. I have absolutely no patience for this. I remember, I can remember on both, I have been in situations on both sides where I have seen people in one camp or the other, you know, actively disavow, the, you know, whichever group they're not a part of. And I'm just so sick of that shit, I can't even begin. And I think that with this, it gets this issue in particular around, you know, things like the Lexis Nexus, ice surveillance issues. They get coded as academic issues, but they're not exclusively. I mean, this impacts all patrons, whether they be academic patrons or public patrons. It impacts all the different database products that public libraries use as well.

So we need to try to drop some of these walled gardens that we have in our field. and we also need to kind of put ourselves out there a little bit more. So I talked about this a little bit earlier with stuff like going to South by Southwest. And you mentioned the Open Education Conference. And also like I think user experience conferences are a good place for us to kind of slot ourselves into as well as like when I go to South by Southwest, I largely evangelize libraries. I go down there.

I usually like hook up with the every library guys. And we go around and we tell people about how libraries are awesome. And like, you know, that sounds stupid. but like it is really like important and effective to reach out to people on that manner because unfortunately like most technologists are not philanthropists anymore and they don't understand the enormous amount of like user onboarding and education we do for their companies. So we kind of have to put ourselves in their and their way essentially. But I do think that if we're going to see any reform around some of this egregious surveillance

through our databases and journals and other year resources, we have to have a coalition of some kind. There's no way. So like I go to a school with 330 students. Nobody gives a flying fuck what I do over here by myself. But if we were part of a coalition of a ton of other engineering schools or a ton of other small colleges or something else, and we could really put the heat on these guys,

we might have a chance of bringing them to the table. But right now trying to do this all by myself, like there are any of us who try to do this all alone unless if you are you know like look at UC right like UC had this whole back and forth feel severe around their contract negotiations which i don't think we're even really successful and they have a i don't i don't i can't even know how many people work for UC but like orders of magnitude greater than what i have at my disposal so like if you know even a huge system like that they can affect change alone we really have to find a way to try to ban together on this. And we also just cannot

wait for ALA to take action because they won't do it. Or if they will do anything, it'll be like a discovery group with a white paper that'll come out 12 months after it actually fucking matters. Because look at what they did with the fucking vaccines. They did that exact same thing with

library worker vaccination prioritization. Like two months or, yeah, two months after midwinter where people were pressuring them to make a statement, they put out this incredibly... Not in my backyard, cover my own ass, like white paper about, like, dodging any sort of responsibility for pushing for people to be vaccinated any sort of priority. So, like, we cannot rely on them to do this work. It's just too slow moving on an organization. It's hemorrhaging

at this point. Like, we can't, we cannot go that route. So, I mean, I think that I know that Library Freedom Project is trying to start some advocacy around this. I haven't really kept up with that as much. But I feel like that could potentially, and I don't know. they've been working with Spark and EFF on these things. I think that the strength is in numbers with this, both in terms of making sure that we fully execute this and we don't lose bandwidth or wind up in a situation like me where I try to do something and then I just am like in a couple months

and I'd buy a kayak and go kayaking instead. So, which is great. Coyaks are awesome. But nevertheless, like, I think we really need to rely on one another and we need to find a way to build solidarity in as many ways as we possibly can with each. other, whether that be this eliminating this absurd distinction between public and academic libraries, whether this be like reaching across the aisle to your staff and faculty colleagues, whether it be,

you know, trying to find little groups on Twitter or through things like the library freedom project efforts, there is definitely an answer to this. We're not all completely screwed. And I think that we can sort of bank on there being some sort of general interest not only in our own field because this is something that is part of our professional ethics and values, but also in the wider world, because we do see in the market that there is an appetite for privacy. And there is an awareness of surveillance culture and surveillance capitalism. I mean, when right before COVID came out, the age of surveillance capitalism was an incredibly popular book in the U.S. We had Shoshana came to, was she at Bout. No, she was at Wellesley, which is in our consortium of three colleges that I'm

part of. And she spoke to a packed room. I was standing in. room only. So, you know, people do give a shit. They do. And we, you know, I think we need to kind of strike while the iron is hot here while we're in this moment of kind of like rebuilding after COVID, assessing what we're going to keep doing and what we're not going to do anymore. And we really need to come back around full circle to those values and ethics that are supposed to be the pillars of what we do in this profession. And think to ourselves, like, if we really are going to walk the walk here, we have to prioritize patron privacy. And we can't use a dated like 1950s, version of whenever that was first written to guide what we're doing in 2021. It doesn't make any sense.

And that means that we're going to have to understand the landscape a little bit better. And we're going to have to find allies who go well outside of librarianship because Web 3.0 is too complicated and too surveillance written for us to be able to disassemble that system on our own. But I am not a pessimist about this. I do think that we can pull this off. We just have to, we have to get together. We have to keep talking about it and have things like this. I have opportunities to chat about this and get the word out about what's going on. I was going to say earlier, this podcast is like fundamentally a political project in terms of getting people a little worked up and maybe interested in some of these organizations.

So hopefully it's working. So Callan, thanks for coming on. Do you have anything you want to plug your Twitter, your upcoming article, or do you want people to leave you alone? Don't leave me alone. I need constant adoration and reinforcement. So a couple things. I am doing a webinar for Nisha Academy next week, which is about change management and libraries.

And I'm someone who is often asked to talk about change management and libraries. And I guarantee you, I will not give you bullshit that's useless consultant ease. I actually have, I think, some pretty good information to impart. So that's on July 7th, which. I think is a week from today, right? And then in the fall, I don't know the exact date. I think it's September 14th. Gail is doing some kind of like electronic conference

where they have a bunch of people they're coming in to do keynotes and they ask me and the co-author of my book that came out a couple months ago to appear at that. And that's also going to be about change management. And then sort of like just as an aside that relates to that, I did write a book with my longtime co-worker Lauren Stara called Responding to Rapid Change in Libraries, a user experience approach. It came out through ALA editions at the beginning of the year.

And Lauren is an architect turned librarian, and she and I bonded in our mutual obsession with user experience design in library technology and library buildings. And we wrote the book under the guise of under the specter of COVID. And I, you know, don't want to teat my own horn too much here. But if you want to give that a read, I think it might be worth, it could be helpful with folks who are trying to kind of put the trains on the right tracks when they go back into full swing and, you know, try to decide what of the last year and a half they're going to keep and what they're going to do away with.

So check that out. And lastly, a little personal thing, I have a weekly radio show that I do from 9 to 11 p.m. Eastern. It's called out back which house. And I play mostly Gotha New Wave music, also some techno and house music. And it is on a web radio station that I just broadcast from out of my house. And you can find that at bkfst.org. And it's on every week, every Friday, 9 to 11 Eastern PM. Good night.