librarypunk - 026 - Vocational Awe and Christianity

Episode Date: September 2, 2021

This week we’re joined by Fobazi Ettarh to talk about the religious underpinnings of vocational awe.  https://twitter.com/Fobettarh  [e-mail] https://fobaziettarh.com/  #GiveFobaziAJob References: The original paper on vocational awe: Vocational Awe and Librarianship: The Lies We Tell Ourselves – In the Library with the Lead Pipe  Anne Helen Petersen talks more about vocational awe here: vocational awe Tweet about religiosity: https://haha!twitter.com/Fobettarh/status/1432003244289630208?s=20  Germinal paper on protestant work ethic, for background (not necessary to know): The protestant work ethic as a cultural phenomenon  Kathi Weeks, The Problem with Work: Feminism, Marxism, Antiwork Politics, and Postwork ImaginariesShorter article:  https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1095796014526859  Article about the problems with the “do what you love” framework: In The Name of Love by Miya Tokumitsu How the professional and upper classes have turned work into a religious identity: Workism is Making Americans Miserable by Derek Thompson

Welcome to Library Pump, the newest product of ex-libris. My name is Justin. I'm a scholarly communications librarian. My pronouns are he and him. Oh, I guess I have to go now because Sadie's not in yet. I'm Jay. I am a academic meditated librarian. And now member at large on my union's executive board. Yay! And my pronouns are he and him. I'm Carrie. I'm a health sciences librarian. And my pronouns are she her. Hi, everyone. My name is Fibazi-E-Tar. I'm not currently working in a library, but I am still consider myself a librarian, an independent consultant, scholar, and educator. And my pronouns are

she-her-hers. Welcome! So, this week, we are joined by Fabazi-E-Tar, who coined the term vocational awe, which is very excited. to have you here and we're really happy that you're here. And you were talking the other day on Twitter, how you don't really get the chance to talk about like the religious and specifically Christian undertones that go into vocational awe. And so as someone who's both a religion head and always obsessed with labor, I wanted to jump on that opportunity and invite you on to talk about it. So first, could you kind of give us a quick explanation of vocational awe and how maybe your thoughts of it have stayed the same or changed over time? Yeah. Thank you for having me

on the podcast. As I mentioned in the tweet, I really don't get this chance often, and I'm a pastor's kid. So talking about religion and how it intersects with other systems. is totally my jam as well. And so when we're talking about vocational awe, it describes the set of ideas, values, and assumptions that librarians have about themselves and the profession that result in notions that libraries as institutions are inherently good and sacred and therefore beyond critique.

When it comes to how my feelings about it have changed, currently I'm really interested in the ways that gender but also class play a role in vocational awe. I started talking about it in regards to librarianship, which is a majority female field. But as I've been talking to my wife, who has ties to the technical sector, she worked at Microsoft as a researcher for two years in the social media collective. Throughout our conversations there, and Microsoft, like most tech companies, are definitely a heavily male field. there are still some aspects of vocational awe that play out there. And so it's really interesting to see how it manifests when you don't have things like motherhood and service tied directly to your occupation. And, you know, on the other hand, usually when I'm talking about vocational awe, again, I'm talking about librarianship, social work, K-12,

education, fields that are notoriously underpaid. And so one would maybe think that a place like Microsoft or a place like tech and startups where they are paid fairly well wouldn't deal with as much of the vocational awe. And yet I am still seeing a lot of the same problems that pop up with the mission, being above the actual work that they're doing and the unwillingness to let people complain or whatever it might be. And so that is something that I'm really interested currently about how vocational awe plays out in fields that are more male that have more money and endowments

in relation to them. Yeah, I just jotted down a couple notes. on what you just said. The language we use for work all the time is very religious. So things like the mission of the organization or you're calling to a field. And that's especially strong for female-dominated fields like teaching and social work. Like you've got to be called to the field. Even if you're not particularly religious, people still use that language. And I don't think they realize how that's not like.

like a hangover from older language. It's the way very religious people talk now still. So yeah, that's really interesting. I also jotted down some notes about liberal communism, techno-utopianism. Maybe those would be some areas to make some comparisons for the ideology part. The notes are pretty structured out if we want to just follow them. But I was kind of wondering more basically what got you thinking about vocational awe and religion in general. Like just what was going through your mind when you wrote that tweet?

Yeah. So as I mentioned earlier, I'm a pastor's kid. My mom is the pastor, which can be seen as pretty radical, depending on whom you're talking to. But in many ways, it was still a pretty conservative Christian household. And so things like being called towards service or being called to a vocation is something that, wasn't new to me. It was always something that was talked about. Growing up, it was always something that we would have to be on the lookout for, as it were. And in regards to the tweet itself, with COVID and everything, how it's, COVID-19 has really brought out a lot of the not-so great things about vocational awe that I had been warning about when I first started talking about it. When I first started talking about it, it was in relation to Cheryl Kowalski and the rise of giving Narcan or Naxalone to those who have addiction problems. And the idea was that, the idea then was that, you know, if you truly wanted to help the community,

if you truly wanted to be the sort of ideal librarian, then you wouldn't hesitate at giving Narcan to your patrons. It's just another service like story time, like book advisory, whatever it might be. And so my concerns when we were talking about Narcan was that if you ask patrons to come to the library specifically for Narcan or ask the library workers to be trained in giving this out, we're putting yet another burden upon ourselves in terms of overwork and job creep.

And, you know, as I said then, the library shouldn't be sort of a kind of a, catch-all for underfunded or unfunded social services in the community. Rather, we should be working with others in the community. And the biggest critique I got then, because I said, if you're asking people to save lives, we're going, like, the other extreme isn't that extreme then to ask people to give their own lives for the library and the public good. And, you know, that was seen as over the top, completely ridiculous. And then COVID-19 happened. And, you know, this is definitely not something I wanted to be right about.

Like, you know, saying I told you so was never my intention. But unfortunately, we're seeing now that we're almost two years, two full years into the pandemic, that library workers all over the country are going. being asked to give their lives up for the greater good, whether that's the fact that it took the governor shutting, like in New Jersey, where I'm originally from, Governor Murphy, literally having to specify libraries, including those on college campuses, in order for the libraries around me to shut down or the fact that libraries are opening up or never closed and allowing people who are unmasked, who are unprotected, to use all of the library resources as if the

library workers themselves are expendable. One of the biggest cases, of course, being Chicago Public Library, where a series of ProPublica articles had to come out and a lot of advocating in order for Chicago public to close as well. And so now that, you know, it's not necessarily an extreme position to say that libraries are asking for our lives to be given to the greater good, the institution of librarianship, When we talk about masks in particular and people who don't want a mask, people who don't want the vaccine, one of the largest demographics of those people are evangelicals, are those who are conservative and also Christian. And in the thread that I quote tweeted, the person was talking about how do we get over vaccine? seen hesitancy and mask hesitancy when they, they being the evangelicals, don't see this life

as being important. Evangelicals, other Baptists, other conservative Christian denominations, they see suffering as a test of faith. They see this life as unimportant except in how it prepares you for the next, you know, the next being heaven and the afterlife. And so when you're thinking about how do I get my patrons to wear a mask, how do I get my patrons to take the vaccine, a lot of the conversations still think about how can we rationally get, logically get them to do so? And I feel like until we actually talk about the ideology underneath it, the religious beliefs underneath it, we can't truly think of ways to address this problem. And so that was one of the main things that sparked that tweet for me is oftentimes when I get invited to talks about vocational.

off. It focuses on the labor aspects, how it affects the day-to-day workplace environment. And that's super important, of course. I never want to not be talking about that. But I do think that we as a field tend to shy away from discussing the religious starts of librarianship. We, the monks, the Christians, the ascetics, who, from which librarianship as we know it, really grew out of. And I understand why religion is not a comfortable thing to talk about. But I think that it can really help us as a field to, again, get at some of these reasons of defensiveness, reasons for the sometimes There's vitriol that is like thrust at people who want to work for better working conditions for more of a work-life balance. Yeah, it's, there's definitely a problem in, we've got it written kind of like twice here about suffering and its relationship in, in all Christianity, but I think it's particularly, it got a revamp.

during the Protestant Reformation, where suffering is redemptive. And so if you're going through suffering, it's making you a better person. And when you're talking about it in day-to-day work life, it's, oh, this is really, really hard, but it's going to be worth it because it's redeeming the community or something. Yeah, I also think there's like the line of suffering that's kind of from the particularly kind of, I guess, like United States brand, which is like the sinners in the hand of the angry God form. And I'm really glad that they're like we're able to talk. I have so much to like add to this too because I remember Fabazi when like you first, either you gave a talk about this that I attended or I read about it in the first piece you published about this, but you mentioned about it specifically as being inspired by like callings to clergy and things like that. And that's definitely something that like I very much connected to from my own upbringing from these like concepts of calling from growing up in like a Protestant denomination. My dad's a church janitor and like at one point

worked three church janitor jobs. So like I very much like to him it's like a calling on some level. So I it's something that I'm very much like fascinated with and tethered up in in a lot of ways and how that's like informed my own professional journey and like trying to untether from vocational to some extent because I think that like explained some of my early career decisions on some level and like a disillusionment and I think a lot of us go through

that on some level too so like anyway just want to express appreciation on some level but also like my excitement about some of this conversation too because I very much relate to it on another level because of this like

being raised in a similar way of like callings and this idea of like you're being, you're destined to be something and your death, like, the idea that like you should suffer and survive somehow is very like messed up too. And it's very difficult to deal with and having to explain to people that you also suffer and survive is always a little difficult kind of economically speaking because like I have a master's degree, but like the suffer survive is really the dynamic that. I think I focus a lot on. Yeah, and the whole point about suffering being like a focus and being

redemptive. It also, so I grew up, my parents weren't particularly religious in any serious way, but I got really into like evangelicalism as a kid, even through like halfway through high school. And one of the things that was comforting to me about it that I think sort of relates to this idea is like there was like this refrain of this world has nothing for me. You know, of course everything sucks. That means I'm doing it right kind of thing. And so like I feel like the vocational awe might relate to that, like where it's like this like persecution complex. Everything is in opposition to me.

So therefore I should keep doing what I'm doing because I'm doing the right thing. And the fact that it's being made difficult, that just means to do it harder. But then ultimately this is going to not mean anything at the end of the day, end of life anyway. So, yeah. And just because people leave that mindset, that doesn't mean the framework of how they live it has necessarily changed, if that makes sense at all. Yeah, that makes total sense.

And I think that's a lot of what we're seeing now, really, the sort of double down, I think, is tied to that feeling of persecution, of one of the biggest things of missionary work, especially. regardless of denomination is the idea that you will be persecuted for it. And so the worst people treat you or the worse your life gets, the more you must be doing something good and righteous. You know, many non-Christians might not know the story of Job, but the way that they're sort of living, their lives is within that sort of Job framework. So for those who don't know...

It gets brought up a lot. Job was someone who was basically used as a test between God and, you know, the devil saying, you, it's easy to be righteous when your life is going well. Can you be righteous if your life isn't? And so God took away all of the things that made Job happy, his family, his livelihood. He was basically destitute and frail at the end of it all. And yet Job still refused to curse God and die, which his wife in the story literally tells Job, God has forsaken you.

Why don't you just curse him and die? And Job refuses saying that God has a plan for me. And if this is, if this suffering and everything is part of that plan, then so be it. I know that God will be with me. And so, you know, after that, every God basically is like, you're amazing, Job. See, it does not matter how much suffering. the truly righteous will always know that there's a reward at the end. And so I think that as things get worse, at worse and worse and worse,

it can be really comforting almost when, you know, your living paycheck to paycheck, when you see people around you are dying, when you see, you know, the effects of global warming, it, as Jay said, it can be comforting knowing like, this is just temporary, what the true reward will come after death anyway. It's almost like, like they wouldn't, if you told them this seems suicidal, they would be furious. but it almost is in that self-destructive way that they're almost seeking out more opportunities for persecution so that they can continue to tell themselves this story about their own righteousness.

Carrie's talked about Daniel, yes. I mean, there are so many figures in the Bible where you can bring up this persecution, but a reward happens. You know, Job, Daniel, Enoch. My mom loves, she continues to this. It's like one of her favorite ceremonies is to talk about Enoch. Who again...

I used to work for, or it was a college associated with a church, and they had like an order of Enoch. that was like their thing. Yeah. So again, for those who don't know, Enoch was basically so righteous, so without sin, that he didn't die.

God actually came and took him up to heaven. And so again, what we're seeing is that persecution and suffering means righteousness. And so when it comes to America specifically and how this relates to labor, the Puritans were the ones who came and colonized, right?

They were fleeing England because their sect of Puritanism was so radical that so extreme that England did not want any part of that. And so they came and they colonized America. And their belief, again, was this very, was based on this very extreme Calvinist framework where, again, like the phrase, idle hands make the devil's workshop.

It was the belief that if you weren't working at all times, that you were being unrighteous. And so again, even though, you know, hundreds of years later were not living like the Puritans did, a lot of that rhetoric, a lot of that framework was tied into the ways in which we built our work ethic. You know, again, the same with the, evangelicals that you have to work hard and constantly be doing things according to the will of God, according to that calling, as well as evangelicals, they tend to have the three major precepts,

which is chastity, which is pretty self-explanatory and is definitely explaining the decisions regarding Roe v. Wade. That's a whole other podcast. Poverty or perfect charity, which again, the idea that wealth is almost something to avoid. Don't tell Joel Osteen that. Well, the prosperity myth is, again, its own situation. But I mean, like most ideologies, right, there's a, in, many inherent contradictions in it. The idea that poverty is something you should be striving for in that, you know, like the monks did again, where everything around you should just be going towards God. But on the other hand, you have the prosperity myth, which bolsters the Joel Olsteens of the world, which says that they deserve their riches because they are so righteous.

And so there's, again, what do you do when we're talking about labor and that's the framework that we are trying to work against? Because the third precept is obedience to God's word to the authority figure, you know, whether it be God himself or those who are sort of stand-ins for God, your boss, your father, your church leader, whomever it might be, the combination of obedience above all to these words, as well as a shunning of desire for wealth, is a lot of what brings up this defensiveness when you do talk about things like work-life balance or even work-life separation. Yeah, it comes in many levels. because like I mentioned earlier, the community aspect of suffering is salvific, you know, if we in mass are suffering for our communities.

But it comes down to the individual level as well where I remember talking with someone who clearly had very bad untreated PTSD and was like, you know, shaking all the time. Like it was obvious because I have, you know, a similar situation. And I remember talking to him and saying, you know, it's tough. but I've gotten it under control more or less. And it goes, but it made you like stronger for it, right? And I was like, no, suffering just hurts sometimes. It's allowed to.

And in fact, you know, there's, you do a lot of things to keep people from suffering all the time. If suffering was really this great teacher and if it was really this great social force in the world, we would be making our lives worse constantly for each other, which in some ways we kind of do. But it works at these multiple levels. And so that was what I wanted to bring back. Once you, once you combine that with sort of like the internalized capitalism, some I think you get a really, a really difficult bundle of ideology to undo individually. And so with that in mind, I want to move on to the next question, which is how do you see,

how are some ways of vocational all present in the library job searching and hiring process? Where do you see it? This is my question because we're doing a hiring right now in my library and like they're doing these job talks and there's just like a lot of vocational awe showing up in these job talks or like and even like in cover letters and stuff where you have to like do these like I feel like there's so much involved in like the job talk and like you know I was noticing this in the hiring process you don't have to answer this much I'm being like this right now it's okay it's it's night time we've all had a long day.

It makes total sense. But I think this is a really good question because often when I speak about vocational awe and how it plays out in the workplace, it's already, it's once you've gotten the job, right? It's things like job creep. It's things like doing more with less, burnout. All of these things are easy ties to vocational awe. But in terms of the job seeking, it can sometimes be a little murkier. And so, again, just to reiterate the definition, so the definition of vocational awe

describes the set of ideas and values and notions that librarians have about themselves and the profession that results in the notion that libraries as institutions are inherently good and sacred and therefore beyond critique. Right. So if that is what we are having in our head that libraries are inherently good and sacred institutions, then how does that play out as a job seeker? Well, it plays out in two ways. one, knowing that as a job seeker, many library workers who are on hiring committees fully believe in that notion, that librarianship is inherently good and sacred.

And so you have people on the job committee who are hiring who believe this. and what that could mean is that those who don't have the right fit, and of course, I mean, that fit is a very loaded term, right? But those who don't have the right fit, in this case, meaning those who advocate for themselves, who push back against the notion that libraries are inherently good and sacred and are a stand-in for democracy. means that they won't get hired, at least not there.

But on the other hand, as we're going throughout library school, as we're reading articles and books preparing to be on the market, there's a lot of material out there still that describe librarianship as a colleague. For example, one of the books that I came across when I was doing my own research about vocational awe is called Sacred Stacks, the Higher Purpose of Libraries and Librarianship. In the book, they say that librarianship as a calling is a powerful perspective. They consider the higher purposes of libraries and librarians and say the reason that one should be called to librarianship is because like our sacred roots,

those being the monks and the ascetics and the theologians, we promote community, we uplift society, we bestow immortality, at least in as much as books and knowledge can be so immortality. So this is just one of many examples of people who believe that librarianship is a calling. I feel like that needs like the name of the rose like Sean Connery treat we had a movie night if you haven't seen

Name of the Rose Sean Connery burned the library Oh no I had not He's a monk He almost dies trying to go get a book Yeah as the library is burning down around him I just saw the cover of it And, yeah.

But we see that even when we talk about the books themselves, right, this is one of the many reasons why we see potential library workers talking about their love of books, their love of the feelings of the pages or the smell or whatever it might be. they again really truly believe in this idea that being a librarian is a sacred duty one of the many people asked like how I started thinking about vocational awe and I always say that I was I always mentioned L.A pretty sure it was 2014 ALA annual in Chicago I was in grad school or a had just left grad school. Time isn't real. Anyway, I don't know. But I was at a joint Yalsa and AASL meeting because I wanted to be a school.

I was going to be a school librarian. And one of the librarians said that working in a library, working with children and teens and youth is a sacred duty. Just straight out said it just like that. working with children and youth in the library setting is a sacred duty and we must treat it as such. And so for me, again, having grown up within a church and that really took me back because while I really enjoy being a librarian, to elevate it to that of the sacred is a really big claim to make. And it seemed like everywhere I was looking, other people were describing their job, describing their positions as being a part of this greater good, a part of this calling of librarianship. And it was just disconcerting to say the least to hear the same language that we used to talk about.

God and religion in talking about a profession. Yeah, it's a really interesting dynamic because it really is not like on the same level. Like, even cosmic, like cosmically, it's not on the same level. Which is, I think maybe, oh, Sadie's here, I think. Yeah, my internet just gave out earlier. So sorry to interrupt you mid-discay. thought, Carrie. Like, please interrupt.

It's okay. I just think that like, yeah, that that comparison, and I think especially that extreme, and I think especially when you get into fields that involve working with children, people especially like load that on very hard. Because like, if you're like a scholarly communications library and no one's like, you're doing the Lord's work or like, this is like of cosmic important. or like this is sacred, this is like a sacred duty. But I think when children are involved or like books or like teaching people to read or something like that, I think people take on that like level of cosmic importance somehow and really just like disproportionately explode it. And it becomes this sort of whole mood.

And I think that and you know played into like a Protestant country and like a Protestant society and all this. suffering and stuff and then, you know, extrapolates from there. And there's all this, like you said, with the culture around monks and stuff like that, too, completely makes sense. And add on top of that, you know, a lot of puritanical influence, which tell me about it, completely adds up. That's amazing and fascinating connections and I'm here for it. Anyway, I'm going to shut up.

That, Carrie, the saying that it's like very, like, sort of kid-oriented or, like, teaching people how to read. It's, it's like, borderline poverty. porn, I feel like, like, especially with public libraries. It's like, oh, you're going to help the underprivileged. But, like, you know, what you're... That's the lady bountiful kind of mythology is that, like, she brings books to, like, the grimy, impoverish youths.

Yeah, and, like, a scholarly communications library, and, like, most people won't even know what that is. So, like, how can you extrapolate that to, you know, poverty and that kind of thing? Yeah. But I think, again, when we talk about any faith or any religion or ideology, there are different parts of it. And so when you're talking about your school librarians, your public librarians, those who are working with the children and youth, you definitely play, have to incorporate the cult of the American child. the white American child. It is definitely a large part of what we're seeing,

especially amongst the evangelical denominations, amongst the conservative Christian denominations, is how can we best help this, again, white American child? When we are talking about the academic, librarians, we're talking more about religion in regard to books being the sacrament. It's why regardless of how old and moldy and gross the books are, once an academic librarian throws it away, it's seen as this horror show, right? Because books are sacred, just like libraries are sacred.

and there can be no room to push against that, even for reasons that make sense. Because, again, we're not necessarily speaking about reason here. We're speaking about ideology. And so even when we're talking about archives, right, the way that vocational awe plays out for the archivists, for archival workers is that idea that we are maintaining history, that we are the keepers of the sacred knowledge. And so, again, working in subpar conditions is just what you have to do in

order to make sure that the sacred knowledge, whatever, in whatever form it might take, stays pure. And why are we saying pure? We mean pure in the way, again, going back to talking about provenance, right, going back to the ways that the monks lived. They lived, they did a vow of poverty. They often did a vow of silence, even. to demonstrate that you as a person, you as an individual, that's not what is important. It is the knowledge you carry. It is the knowledge you disseminate. That is the important thing.

And so when the knowledge you're sharing is seen as more important than you as the knowledge worker, that's how we end up in, again, these places like vastly being underpaid, vastly being under-supported. It's seen as almost what comes with the job. And the last thing I'll say before I hand it over to Jay is that when I switched from school librarianship to academic librarian ship. I was, I worked in a middle school and in a high school. And my very first library job was the resident librarian ship at Temple. And I remember when there was a discussion about hiring that took place at an all staff meeting. And one of the upper management, she said, I don't even, I don't understand why anyone would negotiate anyway.

It's a privilege to work in the library. Libraries are what holds up democracy. Honestly, it feels like they're unworthy to be a librarian if they're so worried about money. And that, you know, again, most people don't necessarily come right out and say it as bluntly as she did, but that is the, a lot of the bedrock when we're talking about vocational awe and librarianship being beyond critique. That is what comes when you start to try and advocate for yourself, try and push back against the idea that librarianship is an institution, just like any other institution, and therefore can be fallible.

I'm actually very happy that you went in before me because I was if I was like, oh, am I remembering correctly for Basie was in a residency? Because I think we may have, because I wrote with Anastasia and Jason and Lorelei that book. And I think we may have asked you to do a review of it. I'm not sure. But I was like so curious about how you saw residences fitting into this vocational awe model and especially the more like Christian work ethic. sacred space suffer for the greater good kind of discussion that we're having here. So one thing you for reminding me without me even bringing it up. But yeah, I'm very curious about that.

Yes. I think Anna did ask me to do review, but I think I was like maybe in the hospital at the time. Yeah, that's a good reason not to. So I told them next time around. But yes, when it comes to residencies, it's very complicated my feelings about them in general. And it in regards to vocational awe. So again, for those who may not know, residences tend to be one to three-year programs that are,

term limited. They usually do not become a permanent line. They just replace you with another resident. And in many cases, are used as a way to bolster diversity in whatever way that they are defining diversity in librarianship. And so when it comes to vocational awe, and precarity in labor because, I mean, residences are definitely, like, other term-limited positions, precarious. I think that they, they being the residents, have in some ways even more pressure to drink the Kool-Aid. and I mean that in that, in the literal way, to drink the Kool-Aid,

to suffer a sort of death of your own will, your own beliefs, to serve, again, the greater good of the library, the greater good of the community, of democracy, whatever it is that librarianship is a standard, for. Because they often are people of color, the pushback against critiquing libraries is even stronger because they are not in a position of power in the way that other library workers might be. But also, the idea that you're temporary, in some ways, it boils down to the most cleanest way that vocational awe plays out.

The library will live on. You are just here as a blip. You may change something, but probably not because the library is without critique, and you may not, but either way, you will be replaced with someone who is just as passionate to be here,

just as desperate to be within an institution that is at the very least paying full time. And so going back to that Taylorism model, Taylorism was the idea that we're all sort of cogs in the machine. It, the machine being a very literal machine where we're talking about assembly lines. But in librarianship, when we're talking, when I talk about Taylorism, the, the metric, isn't effectiveness at, you know, putting the cogs in the right place. The metric is passion. How passionate are you about the values of librarianship? How passionate are you about the ideals of librarianship, democracy and access to all and intellectual freedom and academic freedom.

all of these different ethics that we have created as the core of vibranhip, if you can say the right things, if you can believe the right things, then maybe we will let you, maybe we'll give you a recommendation. And if you don't, we will very quickly label you in a troublemaker, or label you all of these loaded terms that basically mean that you're not passionate enough

about drinking the Kool-A, that you're not passionate enough about putting the library above all of your needs. Yeah, as you were talking about residencies, it reminded me of a hiring practice that's been reported on an Amazon, which is that no one stays longer than three years. And that's so that you don't have time to organize, and you don't have time to build institutional powers. And so if we were to conceptualize some of our residences that way in terms of even if you get a full-time position, you're not getting at the same institution. Because I'm trying to guide us toward the end. I'm trying to think of like something action-oriented in terms of what do we do?

because we've talked about all the different ways that this Christian thinking about suffering and sacrifice have just permeated so many different individual, cultural community levels. So I think going forward, I'm going to start thinking about residences more like that three-year policy at Amazon. on. Well, and especially because of the type of people that residences, you know, are targeting because they're supposed to be, you know, diverse in some way, shape, or form. It's specifically limiting the power of people within institutions who historically have not had power within institutions as well, so it's limiting their ability to gain power

within institutions on a very systemic level. Yeah, even if it's not keeping them from organizing, it's keeping them from, you know, being the senior librarian who's been there for 10 years, which is a form of institutional power. It's pretty important. So I guess we can go into the closing question. I don't want to keep everyone too long. Yeah, we've pretty much covered everything. We've covered an hour. We always try and look forward to the future. What can people do? And I genuinely am not sure if unionization is sufficient to help people compartmentalize their work-life balance and say, I don't know if it's really going to stop people from saying,

well, it's still a privilege to work in the library. Plus, we're union. People say it in that way, which I always find kind of weird. It's like, yeah, good. That should be the norm. So, I mean, is unionization the most effective political strategy for dealing with vocational all, or is it going to be something? different. And I just want to get your thoughts. Or the ideology of vocational awe.

I mean, they don't even let us strike. So. Yeah. I think that one of the, one of the biggest ways that I believe change can occur is learning who the enemy is or what the enemy is. And so I think that, you know, while of course knowledge, it can't stop at knowledge. I think it's really important for librarianship as a field to actually look at the cracks in the paint, as it were, to acknowledge all of the ways that librarianship as an institution is, first of all, to acknowledge that librarianship is an institution and not just a higher calling. and to acknowledge that librarianship as an institution is not without flaws. It's very easy to think about other institutions having flaws. You know, when there are discussions about the justice system, you know, most people aren't saying, I mean, there are definitely like 46% of the population.

But like, you know, when in general, we're talking about the justice system. We, as a people, understand that the ideals of the justice system don't match the reality of the justice system. When we're talking about the institution of law and order, right? When we're talking about the police, the ideals of protect and serve are very different from the realities. of policing. And so why is it that we can look at other institutions and understand that, yes, they have ideals and those ideals would be great if they could actually live up to them, but we can't seem to understand it of ourselves of librarianship as a field? I think that that would be

a really big step in thinking about the work that needs to be done in terms of advocacy. Oftentimes, when ALA puts something else problematic out, right, we sort of joke and laugh and we're like, yeah, because it's the American Library Association, not the American Librarian Association, right? We understand that ALA is thinking about the buildings and not about the people, even though without the people, there wouldn't be all of the great things that we talk about when we talk about librarianship. So I think that even on that level, if ALA could shift from library to librarian and start to as an organization, you know, it is like the oldest

this professional organization in America to think about, okay, instead of the buildings, now we're thinking about the people. How can we as an organization, as a field, start to put out research, put out materials that best help with advocating for the library workers within the buildings or virtually, you know, since COVID, I think that. that would be a real meaningful step towards progress. Because right now, our, right now we're stuck in the affirmation trap, which is basically the idea that labor is locked into the position

of affirming its own exploitation under the guise of survival. Right. So a lot, when we're talking about ALA, when we're talking about the buildings, and you're talking to administration in general, right? That's usually the biggest pushback. It's like funding. We need funding.

We need, if we don't do all of these things, the do more with less, the job creep, whatever it might be, we will not survive as a field. And so we're being forced to affirm our own exploitation in order to try and survive. We're seeing this in not, you know, all over the place with this idea that accountability and quantifying is the most important way to survive as a field, as an organization, as an institution. And I think that there's a difference between saying what you need to say in order to get funding, in order to get support.

I personally don't mind playing the game, as it were, right? If we know that, oh, these politicians, they need to hear about how the sun hit the books and the smell and, you know, like, whatever, you know, the taste, like whatever, you know, we know that this is what gets people going and this is what gets their wallets open. There's one thing to, like, know that. It's another thing when you start sampling your own product, as it were, right? We don't want to sample, what we've been doing is sampling our own product. We need to separate ourselves from the narrative that we're giving these stakeholders and make sure that we're using it not to continue to perpetuate harm, but in a way that gives our workers support in a way that gives our workers the ability to advocate

for themselves. And, you know, unionization, the thing about what makes union so powerful is collective power, right? And so you don't necessarily need to be within the actual name of the union. You don't need to be at AAAP or whatever the union is. So if you have one, obviously, it's good to be a part of if the structure is already there in place for advocacy. It's always good to try and make that organization stronger. But even if you're in a right-to-work state or in an institution where your dean or whomever, again, really believes in vocational awe really believes that libraries are stand in for democracy, it's a lot harder to

punish an entire organization than it is to punish one or two people. And so working together and pushing for advocacy is the way that we start to move the field forward. You know, if you're, even if you're a solo librarian, working within, working with the other. libraries in your city, in your county, in your state. Whatever it takes to gain that collective power is what will help with advocating for yourself, you know, in the most, if you want to do the sort of neoliberalism, you can use those tenants, right, in a way to advocate for yourself. So if your admin comes back and they're like, we need you to do all of these things extra and you're like, no job creep is bad because X, Y, and Z and they try and say, you know,

whatever defensive mechanism they can say, right? If we know that under neoliberalism, productivity is the most important thing, then using that language to advocate for yourself is something that I believe that we should all be doing. You're not the best librarian you can be if you're overworked. You're not the best librarian you can be if you're tired and burnt out and sick. And so saying, you know, X, Y, and Z studies show that not answering you your emails on the weekends, boost productivity amongst the workers by 20%. You know, those are things that they can understand that they can take their shareholders to help with advocacy. It's all about how we can all work together in the roles that we're in

to create safety and wellness for us all. And so, you know, whether that's in a union, whether that's being a de facto union, whatever it takes to build that coalition is what is going to move us as a field forward. Yeah, I did tell my dean one time the studies show that there's only about four hours of productive work done in a day. And he just went, huh, well, okay. So, you know, approach that tactic however you want. Fabasi, thanks so much for coming on. Is there anything you want to plug, like your social media or upcoming work, or do you want people to leave you alone? I don't want people to leave me alone, so that's one thing.

So in terms of plugging, as I said, I'm not currently working in a library building right now, but I am doing consultant work for organizations. I do basically like EDI audits of your organization and work with people on how to create healthier, more holistically beautiful organizations. Also, if anyone wants to invite me to talk about the religious aspects of vocational awe or just talk about vocational awe in general. Definitely please reach out. My Twitter is at FOB-E-TAR and my email is fob-etar at gmail.com. I also have a website that has my

information and also kind of access a blog called WTF is a radical librarian. And you can find that at Wazi-E-TAR.com. And finally, I unfortunately, and I will be putting a blog post up about it, I had to defer for a year for my PhD. and so any sort of work that you could have for me would be helpful, especially in terms of scholarship. You know, if you want to write a book and you need someone to be a co-writer, co-editor, whatever, you know, I'm here.

I'm using this year to try and take my own advice and, you know, stay, as mentally and physically well as possible. And so I think that it's important, you know, to, it can be hard even for me. I'm a workaholic. It's hard for me not to want to fill my schedule with every single thing. Yeah. You know, having my mom's not only a pastor.

She's also both my parents are Nigerian. And so being an immigrants kid, it just, it really is a lot in terms of wanting to be productive at every single moment of the day. But yes, I think that one of the biggest things that I get in terms of vocational awe, people pushing back, it's like, are you saying you can't love your job? Or are you saying that, you know, we should all just quit and become hermits in the forest? And, you know, my answer is always, I mean, if you want to become a hermit in the forest, this seems like a good time for it. There's nothing really. I do it twice a year.

It's great. You know. But the problem with vocational awe is not loving your job. You can love your job no matter what it is. The problem is when we make loving your job a requirement of, advancement of efficacy as a worker. And so, you know, maybe at the end of the day, what will best serve your burnout is switching careers or deferring, you know, your PhD program for a year. It definitely isn't easy, but, you know, if we're really thinking about the religious

ties here, right? Nothing worth doing is easy. Nothing worth doing will just fall into your lap. Things like self-care and wellness, they're not just words used to sell you bullet journals and fancy teas. They're an actual practice, you have to work every day at it. And that's something I'm trying to do as well. And so I wish everyone the best on their journeys towards deconstructing vocational awe in whatever way that might be to them. Oh, that's great. I think that cover, yeah. That's such a good top. That's such a good wrap up too. You could just like put a bow on it. Like did you, were you like reading something? No, I just, when you're, again, when you grow up and your mom and your dad and everyone you know, make sermons out of like anything, you can pretty much talk about anything. You're just like ready to sermon.

Pretty much. Like my mom can take, you know, not wanting to eat beans and make it a whole sermon. And so it's just my own sort of, again, lots of practice. It's your DNA. Yeah. Does your mom have like a good, like, preaching voice? Yes. Yes, she does.

Which, again, is scary when you're young and she's like telling you to clean your room. Just get that boom in. Yes, yes. She can really project that. What's a nomination? So, a little complex. because again, Nigerian, not denominations in the way that, like, we have denominations here. But I consider myself a Presbyterian.

Okay, yeah, that's, I grew up Disciples of Christ, which is like a Presbyterian offshoot. Yeah, so similar kind of practices. I hope everyone has a great night. You too. much. And thanks for being on. Good night.