librarypunk - 040 - Scary Stories to Chill Your Tomes Vol. II feat. Kay Slater

Episode Date: January 21, 2022

This week we're joined by Kay Slater, an Adult Services Desk Assistant, to talk about their job and library worker inclusion! Twitter: https://twitter.com/kailyn0001 Paul Otlet - Wikipedia Rick Roderick: Self Under Seige - 20th Century Philosophy - YouTube

What was that Twitter thing that was going on, the warehouse? I got it. Okay. Welcome to the library punk. We are a federated reserve of book warehouses now. I'm Justin. I'm a Skaulcom librarian. My pronouns are he and him.

I'm Sadie. I work IT in a public library. My pronouns are they, them. I'm Jay. I am an academic metadata and discovery librarian, and my pronouns are he, him. And we have a guest. Would you like to introduce yourself? Hey, yeah.

My name is Kay. I'm an adult services desk assistant at a public library outside of Chicago. And my pronouns are any of them really. But if you had to pick, I'd choose they or she if you'd like. But that's pretty much. Welcome. Yeah, really excited to be here. Awesome. Yeah. So this is continuing our series on interviewing non-librarians who are library workers and talking about their experiences and just trying to get. library communities to be more about the whole library, I guess is kind of the point I'm making

with this. I just feel like library assistants aren't really included and IT workers aren't really mentioned. It's like librarians, you know. Especially that's what I talked about like systems and infrastructure last week. Like, you know, considering the whole things and so important. Yeah. But what if you just put it in a warehouse? What if you put the system in a warehouse? That's what library is. What if we took old computers and put them in a warehouse so that anyone could use them? Because that's how that works. That sounds like my actual nightmare, Justin.

Thank you. I thought you were going to say, that sounds like my actual job. Yeah, so I thought you were going to say true. No, a good chunk of my job is simply just keeping old computers turned on, so it's not too far off. Yeah, I found out my computer can't handle Windows 11, which is really annoying because my computer is only like, two years old. Oh, really? Yeah.

It has, it's like a brand new computer because I bricked my, my Franken machine that I had had going since grad school. And then I tried to upgrade the processor. And it finally was like, no, I don't think so, not this time. And it just worked. Yes, but yeah, so this computer is not that old. And it's got like an AMD Risen processor. I don't understand what the problem is.

So that's freaking me out. Also, I have a conspiracy about my Chromebook that, like, Google has intentionally bricked it because it's a Gen 1 Chromebook and it can't even load YouTube, even after a complete reset, factory reset. Weird. Doesn't Google own YouTube now? Yeah. That's why I thought like Google Chrome is like the Chrome OS is supposed to run like the drive software very well.

And that's why the Gen 1 ones didn't have any storage. But now it's just either the web has become that much harder to navigate, which is possible or Google's intentionally brick them because they last too long. because I've had this since grad school. Yeah, planned obsolescence. Yeah, I think... Gotta love it. Eventually, like, Apple won't even have to do planned up obsolescence

because it'll just make the OS bigger than the storage for, like, an iPhone 6. So the whole operating system is bigger than the awesome storage. Yeah, my best friend has got, like, an iPhone 6, I think, still. And it's to the point in, like, where he can't upgrade... like the, the, the, the OS on it past a certain point. And so many of the apps that he used that are installed on his phone, like, will now require to be an OS that he can't get. So there's just so many apps on his phone that he just, like, can't use it anymore. Wow. Yeah, because they were, like, trying to force an update. Yeah. That's pretty much why I bought a new tablet

it recently. It was because I have a Google 10-inch Nexus that I think I got back in like 2015-ish. And yeah, it could go up to Android 5 and then like stopped. So it was getting to the point where yeah, I couldn't use any apps and otherwise it runs fine. It's just stupid. That was what was discouraging me because I was thinking about buying like an old iPad just so I can sit out because I like to sit out my porch when it's nice. But I don't like lugging my big laptop. actually works back and forth. And if I'm going to like sit outside and watch Queer Eye for like five hours, which is what I've been doing,

then I could just get a tablet, but I'm afraid the tablet's not going to be able to run Netflix app. I watch Netflix on my tablet now, and I got it for like 250 refurbished. So they're out there. I can swing that. I've been, I've been binging the untamed lately, so. Anyway, I feel like we're excluding Kay.

Kay jump in whenever you want to complain about stuff. Yeah, this is about you. It's all good. No, it's just like my first time on a podcast, so I'm feeling very, like, I don't know. It's weird. It always sounds good after the edit. Seriously, like, I'll think it's like the worst recording we've ever done, and then I listen to it after Justin's edited it. And I'm like, oh, this is great.

Well, it's funny because, like, I DJ and I'm so used to, like, recording, like, music and stuff, but my voice and myself and myself, I'm like, huh? Who? Yeah. I DJ too. I gotta say when I first heard the sound effects coming through my car speakers listening to this, I was very excited

with the air horn and the ham horn sample. It was always pretty incredible like insertion point into the conversation so props to y'all. That's all, Dustin. It's surprising. I don't know why more podcasts don't use

voice mod because it's like 25 bucks for a permanent license. And everyone else is like, yeah, I got the new XR2 board. I'm like, it's five hot keys and software. And it's like, it's like hundreds of dollars. I've looked at getting one because I thought it would be fun to have like tactile. But the switches are just like boring. They're not like toggles. They're not cool.

That's why they don't want them because they're not cool. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, like, bros and electric hockey. are pretty similar. They like to make a big deal about the fancy equipment, but in reality, you can make some pretty cool stuff on some refurbished,

you know, cheap. Both of these people are like non-binary trans people. I know who have this thing I'm thinking of, but they are just like gear people, I guess. But it's just like, I don't know. Fair point. It's a successful podcast, so maybe they're like they could spend it.

Yeah, thank us for them. Let me not be a hater then. Yeah, I would rather just have like, multiple more buttons that I can hotkey and then just have that for like anything. I like, I just got like a new controller that has like paddles on the back and I got a software that can make it do keyboard commands too. But now I'm thinking I can also make my, I can, I was, I had to learn a script. I had to learn how to use a what is it called auto hotkey today because I was, I was deduplicating stuff. And I needed to select the record I wanted, say that I

wanted to make it the record and then hit Control Enter. And I did that for like 100 records. I'm like, this is like grad school when I had to click like a thousand things in Archon because there was no select all buttons. So you had to go through a thousand records and literally click a thousand checkboxes.

And I was like, if I could script this but I didn't script it back then because you would have to both scroll a certain distance and click and move the mouse a certain distance. I'm like, I don't know if I'm going to learn that. But this was just three keys. So it was just, I just had it run a thousand times.

If you use a controller while you're podcasting, does that make this a gaming podcast? Oh, I, oh, no, it's hotkey to F5. That's not hotkey did anything on the soundboard. Damn. Because F5 would refresh the page.

We'll bring K and Kyle back on. Other K, K with a ferret. Yes. Yeah. That was a good episode. Thank you. Yeah. I am trying to do an episode with Horror Vanguard right now, but they're booked out until March.

But I also want to get Kay on because I think it'll be a very fun episode for the both of us to do. Getting them back on Horror Vanguard, or are you doing one with them? Me doing one with him and then also having Kyle on because he's into ancient history. I'm trying not to spoil it, but it's a movie that no one talks about. and I want it to be a shock when it shows up on the horror vanguard feed. I was already on it. It was.

Someone referenced that movie. What was it? The empty man. The empty man. Someone mentioned that on a podcast I was listening to today that just came out. So I don't think maybe it's getting its due now. Maybe it's because of the horror vanguard episode. Maybe.

I don't know. A lot of people listen to it. Yeah, it's weird to think about that. that. Anyway. Anyway. This looks very cool. Yeah.

I don't have a segment because I have somehow all the library Twitter drama, I just miss. I follow so many people. That was why I created a library drama account so that I would re-blogged it on that account and then I never remember to do it. It's just been like the same old drama rehashed, you know. The King is dead long live the king. what's what's her name callan what's her real name i only remember either someone's real name or i remember their twitter name but i can't remember both but um she wrote god she was on the podcast too now i feel

really bad anyway it's calin but yeah yeah she wrote a thing about like all the twitter dogpiles and i think one day people are gonna regret being a part of one i just find them annoying is the main thing because then it's like a million people on my feet all saying the same thing. And I'm like, what good is this doing? I did appreciate the post that was unrelated to a Twitter pile on, but it was the guy responding to a $20 bill with, why am I blanking on her name?

Underground Railroad Lady. Harriet Tubman. Oh, yeah. Harriet Tubman with a gun. And the guy, and the guy underneath was called Librarian Day. He was called librarian Dave, yeah. I was like, yeah. He just went, no.

It's like she carried a gun. Yeah, a bunch of librarians also have been dogpiling on the female host and not the male guest that was on of the Right Good podcast, because they just did an episode where, and the term it already existed, but they couldn't figure out the origin, but sort of calling this sort of like current genre environment of sci-fi and fantasy squeak horror and criticizing it. Sometimes it was kind of catty, but it was like legitimate, especially material and class criticisms of it.

And I just saw that like, I don't think it was anyone I follow, but I was seeing them tweeting that like just a bunch of librarians who were into like that kind of fiction. And I probably know, you know, I don't know if one that I follow was part of it, but a bunch of like Hugo winning authors and then like annoying librarians were just dogpiling this relatively small podcast for

criticizing a genre. So, and I was like, it was at the same time as the other dog pile. And I'm like, these aren't necessarily the same circle, but they're the same kind of people in that circle in those two circles.

So that was my feelings because those were happening at the same time. To describe the Whedon-inspired fandom pandering toxic positivity in modern fiction and entertainment. It's like anything that's one of Hugo in the past couple years is basically that a lot of people think that it's criticizing the presence of positivity and diversity and lightheartedness. or the fact that it says it's attempting deconstruction or like reclaiming of harmful or old tropes.

But if they actually listen to the podcast, that's not what they're saying at all. Isn't that always the case? If you listen to it or if you actually read the article. Most of it's about craft and how they think they're doing one thing and they're just bad at it. But it's like all the people who like go to these writers workshops and they all know each other. so of course are the ones dominating each other for Hugo's. Right. And then the ones getting published and like tour and stuff and uncanny.

So it was a very like materialist thing about it. And also about the types of diversity in it. That anyway, that's a rant for another day. So like Chuck Tingle is squeakhor. Yeah, I am new to library Twitter, but like, yeah. No, I was just curious about, I don't know this, the types of folks who's to be on library Twitter and these pylons I just

as you were saying Jay the circles seem to be kind of overlapping in that regard Yeah it seems to be like so I'm only 29 and it seems to be like I know like still millennials but like older

millennials who and this is more of vibes not that they are like this but vibes are or were really into hands. Hamilton because they thought it was revolutionary. Not me calling Hamilton bad. You've heard it here.

Hamilton is kind of revolutionary. Yeah. But it's like those kinds of folks or like I'm a trans person. It's the kind of cis person that like makes a point about talking about like retweeting turfs and calling them bad and stuff like making a point to do that. I'm like, do you really need to like do the thing that everyone else is doing over and over? again. It's like that. Right. Because that's what a dog pile is. It's just a bunch of people. Yeah.

Yes. Like I hate saying that like I hate it when like, because I know that they're, that's why a lot of like right wing and conservative propaganda works so much as often that it is getting something that is true, but they are coming at it in good faith and not for the right reasons. Yep. Yep. Yeah. So I'm like, yeah, it's exactly what they're doing, but I don't want to like use that language. I think you might as well because like that, that kind of stuff only lands because there's so much of it. There's a lot more that never gains any currency. And most people are like, that's a dumb argument.

So like when something hits, they'll just beat it into the ground. And then eventually, like, left the shit posters will be like, yeah, what are you cooked? Like I did on the first episode of this podcast. That was important to set a tone. Anyway, we've gone 20 minutes and we haven't even talked about our wonderful topic. We're not going to. We're not going to. We just wanted to hang out.

Yeah, just going to hang out tonight. Is that not a podcast? Just hanging out? The podcasts are for making friends and for forcing your hyperfocus on people. So true. And for the abolition of capitalism and movement towards communism. Yes. God, I hope so. So, Kay, how did you first get into libraries?

Did you seek out libraries or just kind of fall into it? Kind of sort of. I kind of came into it. and then also like fell into it. I was doing like a decent amount of like arts administration work in undergrad and like through grad school. And I was also doing a grad program in communication. So I was learning a lot about social science and like I was basically going to do the whole academic professor's track thing. And then I kind of quickly realized that I wasn't really the kind of person that's like has that motivation to be an academic.

and maybe I'm just burned out, but there's a lot of me sort of having a lot of interest in media and cultured and art just broadly, and then not really knowing, or maybe it's not knowing, but it's more struggling with the lack of, like, interdisciplinary, you know, discussion between different disciplines. So, like, art and, like, new media is pretty much kind of new media is what I mostly did through my undergrad, which was, like, you know, game design and art and technology stuff. but that kind of thing was the only real bridge between art and media that I could really find. So I pretty much like when I figured out what media theory was, I was like, oh, okay, this is exactly how my brain really works when I think about art and culture. And then to keep a long story short, through my grad program, I was doing a lot of service work and food service and, you know, being a TA, et cetera. And I wasn't sure if I wanted to be an instructor. So I was talking to one of my professors, and then she suggested that I look into working in a library just to see if I would like that sort of aspect of organizing and arranging information and, like, you know, helping students potentially, like with research and things of that nature.

And so I started looking after talking to like the head librarian at UIC, which is where I got my master's degree. She was like, hey, there's a website that you can go to for like jobs in the Chicagoland area for library. And I was like, oh, okay, perfect. And I started looking just kind of around. And I found a position in a public library in the neighborhood that like my dad grew up in, which was really cool. And because I was looking at jobs throughout the end of my MA and income. The two kind of options are either like you go be a professor or you go work in PR or work

in, I don't know, some kind of private industry. And I was not really interested in doing. either if I had to pick, I'd pick the academic route, but I just was really frustrated by the like, not, this is only the lack of opportunities, but like kind of the lack of opportunities, like, for this degree and realize, I mean, obviously, love reading, I've done that forever, you know, stereotypical kind of like, you know, avid reader kind of thing working in a library, like, or like, you know, anyway. So I also have a lot of technical training and creative software and like, been working with the public or working with

people a lot. So I figured this job as an adult services desk assistant probably encompasses most of what I've been trained to do, which is just like help people with technology and troubleshooting. And then I really like giving people recommendations for, you know, media that I like. So of course, that's pretty perfect for adult services in terms of like, you know, contemporary and popular books and CDs and movies coming out. So I pretty much, so in that regard, I kind of fell into it. I didn't really realize to the extent of like how much I'd actually really feel comfortable in a library setting because I just I didn't do like an English degree so I just I wasn't really put towards that path or it was kind of I was definitely more focused on doing more like curatorial arts

administration stuff when I was in college so kind of more museum focus definitely that I've experienced and I felt interested in doing archival work too just because I've been around art museums for a long time. So I think that's a big interest of mine. But yeah, that's a long answer. Would love to chat with you about like creative and artsy tech and stuff. That's like my shit right now. That is like my bread and butter. Or I'm really like trying to get back more into it. I just doing social science stuff has made it a little bit more difficult. But like I've been doing creative coding like the art stuff. And I have like a not an arduous. know, but like one of the knockoff like metros and I'm like wanting to do cool stuff with that.

Like I'm not doing, I'm not using processing, but I'm using like a wrapper around processing. That's really fun. Yeah. That stuff is so important, I think. So sick. I really want us to do an episode on like creative coding or something and like maybe how that can apply in like libraries like doing like creative tech and stuff anyway. Yeah.

No, that's like definitely where my like broader interest in. working in a public library is it's like because I mean that I really enjoyed the episode on maker spaces but I um I have similar frustrations about the whole like STEM career skill building focus and I really am more interested in like creative spaces but like with technology specifically so like you know so for example like our my library has a gadget collection that we have that like patrons who have a card with us can like check out a like MIDI synthesizer or. and a microphone and like a little media hub, like converter for your laptop kind of thing. And so that kind of situation on a much, you know, broader scale or like, you know, actually part of the infrastructure of the library, I think is something that is like my immediate kind of like attraction to working in a library as a career, I would say. That's the only techno drop I had. That's funny.

That's like, yeah. So was it the public service aspect that you got, because you said you got recommended to try it working in a library. Was it because you were focusing on like community organizing or was it that you thought like helping people do research would be cool? I mean, I have a broader interest in like organizing and, you know, like from a social, you know, justice standpoint, I do. but I didn't really necessarily feel super strong as a individual coming into that but I do so my interest was about sort of wanting to help students

research topics related to communication and technology so a lot of my discussions with most of like the professors and librarians outside of my like workplace have mostly been about academic librarianship been thinking about pursuing that just because I could, you know, if I was going to get the MLIS. But I think now since working in a public library and like having more experience with it, I am definitely leaning more towards like the public service aspect now and having a better

understanding of like, you know, by the interest beyond myself and just kind of what I actually enjoy. Like being of service, I think is, um, because I'm used to just like, you know, selling like pizza slices and like, I don't know, working in fast food and like, I had a job in undergrad as like a tour guide for my like very expensive art school. Like, and I don't really, I mean, I don't know, I just feel weird like selling things that I don't actually want to, you know, be behind. Um, and actually being able to, you know, bridge gaps between people's like, needs, like directly. Like, it's been really cool. Um, and, but I am, like definitely like a baby in terms of library world.

Like I mean, I already like a baby in terms of like my age, but also as well as like, you know, the world of libraries, especially public ones. But yeah, so most of my time in academic kind of spaces.

So pursuing public stuff has been really cool. Okay, that makes a lot of sense. Were you working in a library while you were in school? Because you're not in school now. Yeah, and I was pretty much just a TA. when I was at UIC.

I wanted to make my way into the library there, but I was too close to graduating to be hired. Basically, I interviewed for a archivist, like, research assistant job at the UIC Center for the Humanities or the Institute for the Humanities, and got along with them really well, but then I was graduating in December of, like, you know, last year. So they were like, oh, no.

I was like, oh, you guys do. But that kind of thing was definitely on the, you know, I really'd like to do something like that in the future. I think if I were to work in an academic, because I think I have a lot of fear still about, like, teaching and, like, instruction. So I think working for, like, an institute, like, for the humanities or sort of around building or, like, mitigating materials for a, like, museum or sort of, yeah, you know what I mean?

Just helping out with the academic filing of things and making it available to people who need it. Yeah. Well, I mean, you definitely will have to do instruction if you go to library school. And you really should do a lot of instruction courses while in library school because it's like 90% likely it's part of your job.

Right. Same thing with like supervising. Like you can't really become a librarian and be like, oh, I didn't want to supervise people. It's like, no, they're going to make you supervise. supervise library assistance and student workers and stuff like that. That's one of the reasons why it's like, you know, I'm one of the people that it's like, you know, I think everyone should know how, like, maybe not how to catalog,

but like how a catalog record, like how that affects the front end. But also I think even people who are going to do tech services to take a reference or instruction course, because like reference is mainly just teaching you that people are bad at asking questions and so how to go through answering someone. and that's helpful regardless. And then like instruction is really helpful because you have to like, even if it's not like, you know, Justin pointed this out to me today for reasons I won't say on a public podcast right now. That like...

You've got a crime we're planning. A crime I'm planning. That like even if it's not like a formal training or supervising, you're still like having to like teach your colleague something really quick or like showed them how to do something or, you know, like do like informal training and whatnot. And like having instruction and reference skill is like really helpful for that. Like having a combo no matter what realm you're in is just going to serve you better in the long run. Academic libraries are like the place you're most likely to get into a position where you're

no longer doing public service though. I do have colleagues who like don't interact with anybody. So it's possible. But but the, the, The special collections and archives world is just so competitive. And there's just so few actual slots because it's not actually funded that much. Right. Yeah, it's tough. It's tough to give people advice about library stuff. It's just like, if you really like it, go for it.

Otherwise, like, you know, just you're already doing the best thing, which is just to already work in a library. Yeah, like, that was kind of the, like, special collections archives precarity problem was kind of the reason why I went into doing a MA and Com and not doing an MA or MFA in Art History or Arts Administration, because I was like, oh, no, I don't live in New York. Like, I'm not, you know, super wealthy. Like, I don't have these kind of connections, like, to compete at that level. And Com is, like, very applicable to all sorts of career paths and stuff. Yeah.

Yeah. Com is such a general field, but at the same time, not at all. It's, like, it's so weird. but if you work in technology at all, it can have some application. So that's the nice part. Yeah, especially in terms of like comm research or like the academic side of com. It's like it's pretty much like there's for some reason there's not a lot of, at least in from my institution or past institution.

There wasn't a lot of like interaction between common information studies or information science. And there really wasn't a lot of even relation between common computer science except for the fact that, like, one of our, like, faculty members in my department was, like, also faculty and computer science. So, like, there really wasn't a lot of, like, discussion about, like, IT, really, either, which I think is problematic, but. I think at Rutgers, um, I think their high school is in their, their calm department. So, yeah, actually almost, I almost entered their PhD program, actually, like, last year. Yeah. It's, it's a very, very, very, very, big department. And, but it's a really nice, like, mix of everything that is, it's info, it's

common as well as media studies. So you are getting, like, you are able to till to get that, like, critical theory stuff as well as, like, information technology and, like, some kind of training. So, yeah, like, definitely, hopefully in the future, these things, like, coalesce a lot easier and like folks who have a lot of different kinds of skills can like find a like fulfilling job that pays them all enough but you know we can only dream yeah i i'm just interested because there's there's usually so many stories about how people get into libraries and they normally follow like i've normally hear this sort of academic one which is like i wanted to do research and help people do research because I think that's really cool.

And usually it's followed by I hate writing up the research, but I like doing the research. So I like finding sources for people. So that's usually like the academic story. Like mine also too, a lot of the reason why I feel comfortable, I think, at a library too, is it like as a DJ and as somebody who like makes music, I already have a practice of organizing things. And, like, I think that aspect of, like, making art with technology and music with technology, like, has kind of made my brain more. I don't know.

There's just something to it that I had to kind of articulate. But, I mean, like, you put, like, you know, tracks in a playlist and that's what you play out, like, a set or something. And you have to know exactly, like, what kind of USB to get and, like, how to download the right software. And it's just kind of a lot of really interesting, like, technological practices that go along with it that I think is also influenced, like, why I like working at a library right now. Yeah, it's nice to hear different stories in the same one. But with the division between comms, IT, and library science, I always think about, like, Paul Oatley, who we don't usually learn about as much in library school, but he was just like this early 20th century weird. who just tried to catalog everything and he created all these cataloging systems and he was like obsessed with new technology.

So he was the kind of person who thought like microfiche would like create the internet kind of dudes. He was, he thought like telegraphs would just like print microfeesh from one country to another. And like things that weren't technically impossible is just that like technology didn't evolve that way. So you could create like an alternate 20th century like steampunk of like 1940s. Actually, there was a video game that did that where the World War I didn't end. And so it went on, and the game was set in the year 2000, but World War I never ended.

So you had like this extremely weird, divergent technology world. Or like the article about the Mimex or whatever. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I love the MEC. Yeah. Didn't someone make a MMEX? I think so.

There's also that Chilean or Chilean. an Argentinian writer who did the, I forget, I don't know what it is in Spanish, but hopscotch. And he, like, made his own machine for how to read his book, because it's like a, like a without internet or electricity hypertext book from the, you know, 60s or something or whatever. I just find that kind of stuff fascinating. Yeah, but it's also why, like, why so much language in IT in so much language in library science doesn't mesh and it's really frustrating because if you try and study like library technology, you will find technology like IT articles that use the word library in a way that doesn't mean a library. It means an asset database or stuff like that.

So it's very frustrating to do that kind of research. I'm sure if I did it more often, I would learn how to filter it out. But it was just once in a while I was trying to. look up something about like computer usage in libraries and I just could not find any articles. That's my job search, like trying to find that sweet spot between library and IT when I go out looking. So yeah. But yeah, com is a cool field, actually. I thought about doing a PhD in comms because there's a lot of, like, one of my favorite philosophers has a common degree. Rick Roderick.

So he is a Texan philosopher, and he's very Texan about it. His lectures are on YouTube. I'm going to put them in a notes. People should watch them. They're really good. Calm is good. I feel like,

I keep in mind I'm jaded, but I think that a lot of the topics in com usually are just like popular topics or like that people want to grift about, like, I do research about that's kind of self-serving. I just kind of what I've noticed in grad school, like, people's interests tend to be, this is a piece of media that I really like, and here's a theory that I read, and this is how it kind of comes together. And it's like, yes, but like, does it really? Like, it's, it's kind of, I mean, maybe it's my frustration with,

like, media studies in general, like, and, like, the lack of, I don't know, the lack of reading of Stuart Hall, basically, that I find. But, yeah, I just, it can do some really cool things, especially when we talk about, like, the discussion last week with Megan talking about critical infrastructure studies. Like, that is, you know, talking about the actual material conditions of calm, I think, is where things, where I tend to find, you know, myself most comfortable in. But, yeah, I mean, like any field, it has some, the good parts and the bad parts,

are the not so, you know, not so nice parts. So I want to get into some of those material questions. Like, you know, as a desk assistant, how have your interactions with librarians and library administrators been? They've been pretty good so far. And keep in mind, like, I've only worked in one public library. So my experience is pretty specific. But I would say that a lot of the librarians that I work with really, like,

do tend to value, like, the labor that I put in, because they do understand that it makes a lot of their, you know, job easier, or at least helping to patch certain, you know, issues of, like, I do a lot of, like, readers advisory work for my supervisor, or I'll work on constructing ideas for displays. So, it's, I do quite a bit of things that I think others would consider as part of the librarian, enroll, but I don't have that same, you know, kind of authority, really. But in terms of, like, administrators, I think I've also had a fairly okay experience. Definitely, I feel like working at a small library, I do interact a lot with, like, administrators as well as librarians. So I definitely, having a smaller department, like, in the small library, like, I think as someone who is very well-versed in, like, helping patrons with technology, I

think they rely on me a lot to be at the desk and to be present for patrons. And it's made pretty apparent to me that, like, yeah, if I wasn't there, like, that they would spend most of their time working with patrons and they couldn't really do any sort of, like, back office work. So that's pretty much understood, but it's also, it's a nice balance, at least so far. Yeah. I mean, the distinction between librarian and non-librarian work is just completely arbitrary in terms of, you know, there's some things that I will pass off because they don't require much

training to do, but there was stuff that I would consider still within my role. But like, if I have someone who's, you know, like a graduate assistant and I need to train them up quickly and get them going, like, it's like, okay, yeah, do these projects. This would work really well for you, which usually means I end up passing off the stuff that I would want to do and have fun doing. And then just leaving the worst stuff for myself that I hate doing because I'm like, It's probably the reality. It sucks. Yeah.

Probably that my supervisor probably is like, oh, yeah, that's exactly what the same kind of thing. When I was in a similar position to UK, it was like, I basically was a library assistant. It was a very nebulous distinction because like there were times when I would like do programs with librarians. or even like did a whole like readers advisory present like training and stuff so yeah I think it does really flex library to library but the time you spend interacting with patrons is probably the probably the number one thing that divides that I would think yeah I think for me too like it's that having to be on desk and with patrons a lot and being like a young person with who's very the technology. I think a lot of this stuff come super easy to me and like I don't know. I just feel like a lot of my

coworkers are like may not necessarily have that like ease of use with technology and so I am called upon to like help with a lot more problems when it comes to like patrons having trouble accessing their email or you know just kind of or if there's an issue with the so like for better clarification, like at my library, our front desk is like the front facing part of the desk is like for patron services. It's like circulation. And the other side of it facing the computers is like information or like reference basically. So it's where I sit for adult services. And I'm pretty much monitoring the computer lab for most of my shift. And most of my time is, yeah, spent helping patrons with, you know, browsing the internet, trying to find information they need, you know, printing out a lot of photos. documents, and we have the nice, like, the nice, like, scan easy machine, which is pretty cool. That's also, you know, a pretty big thing. We had, like, mobile printing, too. So a lot of patrons, like, need specific technology assistance. And if someone is at the desk who is not necessarily that well-versed in it, it definitely

makes things a little bit more, I mean, I don't know if it's strained, but, you know, it's not as easy, I guess, or there's not as much sort of flow. Just from one of kind of, you know, just seen with coworkers who are not as like, they're great in terms of like, you know, patron interaction and like they're really, you know, interpersonally awesome. But when it comes to like the more specific problems, like there was a patron who came in a few weeks ago who was like working on a like journal that she's like self-publishing and she used Canva and like the Kindle like digital processing app.

And I didn't really know a ton about it, but I was able to help her in a way that, I think if I hadn't like had some, you know, design or like illustrator training, I would have been like, I have no idea how to help this person. And then I wouldn't know how to like tell that patient I didn't know how to help them, you know, or be like, I can't do this. It's a, I'm still kind of figuring out those boundaries too, which is a fun part about being new to all this stuff. Yeah. I mean, at least in a public library, you don't have to worry about inflating someone's grade if you help them too much, which was something that I got in trouble for a few times for helping too much. And they're like, if you hadn't helped, their grade would be a letter lower. And it's like, that's true.

That's a good point. I've been there as a TA, yeah. So, but with interactions, you mentioned how, you know, you're working closely with librarians who are doing the same public-facing work. Have you any weird interactions with them as you're working together? Has it gotten awkward in terms of like maybe the age difference like you've brought up a couple times or the technology comfort difference? Yeah.

I mean, the age difference is kind of, I don't know, I mean, it's, that's, I think, more in terms of, like, my place in the world is, like, someone who grew up with, like, the internet. And I think that's why I am a lot more, like, on the ball with it, I guess. But in terms of, like, my interactions with other librarians are people that I work with, like, it's hard to say because, like, I don't really know if the people that are what kind of other individuals who work at the job that I do. like if they are of a similar like kind of age or place in their life as I am or if it's because there's a lot of folks that work in like patron services who are like retired but people who work mostly in adult services as far as I've seen have mostly been like people in their like 20s or like some kind of part-time situation where they're also in school or like they're doing something else and kind of figuring things out so I think if there's that

kind of understanding I don't really feel an awkwardness there I think it's just kind of, I'm still adjusting also to working in an environment where I don't have to be on my feet like for eight hours. And like I'm also just like very grateful though people are nice to me at work. So that's a pretty big part of it. So maybe that's kind of where my maybe not apprehension, but a little bit of uncomfortability is. Meaded, say you're muted again. God damn it. You said you had kind of a background in food service.

Yeah, I also had a background in food service and I had a conversation once. Yeah, with another library assistant when I was doing that where it was like, you could tell who worked retail or food service because they would have the hustle. Completely. I was just going to say this. Yeah, is that something that you've noticed working in a library or like in any way? I feel like I got my, oh, sorry. Oh, yeah, no, absolutely. like I feel like that is such a one of the first kind of judgments that I made like working in a library was that I could tell at least from the folks I mean the folks who are like retired I couldn't really tell but like the people who were I would say like maybe younger than like 45 it was like okay I could kind of see like if you're just willing to just like get up and just help somebody like you do kind of have that like the service industry brain but yeah like I definitely noticed because I worked at a like Wendy's when I was a teenager

and then worked in a few bars and now I work at Chili's which is fun but so I definitely am used to just helping out people that like on the job like I and I've worked with people who work a bit more timid and just kind of

more wanting to just kind of sit and a little bit hesitant to help patrons immediately and I don't know if I can really like judge them for that necessarily but I am a little like I don't know. Like, there's definitely a different vibe, I think, just like people who are very used to just being like, okay, I'm going to go help this person and then like, that's it.

Yeah, like, I feel like if you're not comfortable working with the public, maybe you shouldn't be in a public-facing role. Right. Yeah, like, I was really like such a dick saying that, but. Yeah. Like, I know, especially in libraries, it's kind of this culture about, you know, oh, like, you know, you had your head in a book and it's all very sort of abstract. And but then it's like, no, like you do have to be able to talk to a stranger immediately and just meet them where they're at and figure out what they're, if they're having any issues and if you can best find a solution for them, like in that moment.

Yeah, I definitely noticed that with just like a few coworkers. But as such is kind of the field, I guess. But yeah. Yeah. I mean, it kind of ties back to what we were talking about earlier with being willing to do instruction and like doing instruction. But the thing that really helped me, it was something I kind of stumbled on in library school because I was going to do an undergrad minor and I took like one class and I was like, I'd rather just graduate faster. And so then I took our education course and I really latched on to this thing of anti-exiety pedagogy, which is you can't remember something if you're stressed out. So that's why like the buddy system works very well for retention.

that's why I can't turn off my library voice when I'm on mic because I spent hours and hours making tutorials and just being as calm as possible and making people trying to feel like, I've kind of gotten rid of it now because I have a mic that's like a real mic. I feel like I'm yelling at it. So that activates like my I was in a punk band brain. So I feel like that's kind of fixing it.

But when I had the headset on, it was just very like I couldn't turn it off. but yeah, I can see what you're saying where some people just don't feel the need to take an initiative to help. And I definitely don't try to get on to anybody about how they're handling their job. But I do sometimes see people on the on the CERC desk. And, you know, they just kind of give robotic answers. And I'm like, you're not helping the person. You're just, you've like, you've like walked them through like, okay, here's how you get a study room. You've got to do this.

and you got to do this. And they walk them through this. I watched this whole interaction. I was fascinated. They walked into this whole process and then said, oh, you need a minimum of three people. After walking them through the whole process of how to use, like, lib guides or lib apps to take the room.

And I was like, dude, just give it to them. And they walked away. I'm like, what are you doing? They grab them, tell them, tell them it's fine. Tell them there's smaller rooms. I don't know. That kind of stuff. Yeah, I have noticed a similar, yeah, a similar kind of thing at my job.

Just like this, yeah. like a kind of robotic way of answering. And I think it is because maybe the folks that I like work with, yeah, do have this kind of like anxiety about messing up like in front of a patron or something, which I think if you do work in food service, you kind of get rid of that fear after, you know, so many issues with customers. You're just like, I don't care.

Like I don't get paid enough for this. As long as nobody's throwing a burger at me, I'm doing good. Exactly. exactly, like there have been situations at work where like patrons have definitely like been like verbally aggressive towards me and my coworkers and they'll and like the patron will be having an outburst and like leave the library and then we'll sort of check in about like me and my co-workers after and like the co-workers who just like very shook up about it or like it's kind of in a way where I have to working in a bar I'm sort of like okay like I've seen people

like be, I mean, kind of like used to this sort of like, you see people at their worst kind of thing and you just learn how to help manage them through that and you just, but it's, it doesn't affect me as much anymore. Maybe I'm a bit desensitized to the, to the kind of maybe the more chaotic interactions because I'm just used to being paid to help manage them. So that's part of, I think, also that difference between like the more timid people and the other folks are a bit more extroverted. you're working in a library now. Has your employer, like, come up to you and be like, you should go to library school? Yes, definitely since graduating from my MA, they're like, oh, are you going to go back? It's a pyramid scheme. Yeah. I'm like, well, I could, you know, I mean, but the thing is, is like, I think this is pretty much, like, something that I want to do for my, you know, career. So I am likely going to pursue it.

But I do, you know, I live in Illinois. So the program at U of I is pretty much my best shot in terms of not really having to pay too much for it and going to a good program. So that is likely what I'll do in the next few years. If I want a full-time job, basically, that's really the issue is that I can find positions that are full-time with my MA. There are roles that I've been seeing that I could fulfill if I wanted to, but a lot of that also requires more extensive. you know, on-the-job work in libraries. So it's probably just a combination of work experience and going back for library school. And I also, not to brag, but I got a scholarship to the PLA conference.

Nice. Just very cool. Yeah, thanks. But so now all my coworkers are like, oh, are you going to library school? Are you doing this? This is like your thing now, right? And I'm like, yeah. I mean, this is, I want to explore it.

You know, I want some money to go explore it. But it was kind of, it was just funny how they immediately were like, oh, I had really talked about it because I wanted to kind of avoid that sort of like, oh, you should like come join us kind of thing. Like, yeah, I will. Come play with us, Danny. Come play with us forever. Right, right. Yeah, Librarians love to tell the people to go to library school, which is. Considering how much we bitch about it.

Yeah, it is weird. Well, also, like, most people I work with, too, like, they all went to the same program and, like, local to the library. So they're all very, like, you need to go to this program. Maybe. I was thinking, yeah, doesn't the University of Chicago have, like, a public history mixed degree that I was looking at back in the day? And I was like, oh, I could have done this and saved, like, thousands of dollars in tuition. I could have done a dual MA and MLIS, but instead I didn't. Yeah.

Then an MLIS. I mean, is it Dominican? Yeah, Dominican is. Dominican's program is great, yeah. That's the only like program like in the Chicago land area that's for an MLIS, which I think is ridiculous. Yeah, you think there'd be more. Especially with the ALA being here.

Like I don't really get. I guess the oversaturation. I don't know. I guess. I mean, but then you have, you know, like, a huge public library system in Chicago land. In Chicago, like,

who's relying on people not being trained, like, in the city of Chicago, it's always people who are, you know, not from the city. So I just, I find that.

It's all people who went to UIUC or University of Indiana because you can't get a job in UIUC because that's where the library school is. That's where I did my MLS because I'm from Illinois too. And so many people, they just, like, if they're not limited by geographic area,

they normally, like, we're told you will not get a job in Chicago. because that's where everyone's trying to get one. But also then a lot just end up going to Chicago and getting a job there. It might not be like an academic library position. Those are just so hard to get. I mean, CPL is pretty big.

Yeah, exactly. It's a huge system. Dominican's got some really good professors in their like doing like metadata and cataloging. I've always been impressed, like seeing them at like conferences and stuff. So if you're into that, kids, Dominican's a good place to go. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah, most of my, most of my coworkers went there. So they're all very sort of, and I get it. I mean, that's an interesting thing, you know, related, but slightly off topic of like, especially in like cities or something where like all of so many of the librarians won't be from that place. Like not that that's necessarily a bad thing. But I feel like especially in like, especially like in like the kind of job that that you, do or like people who work like an infodest or like cirque reference kind of front end like being very familiar with the area is a plus and like yeah you become familiar and like learn the stuff moving there

but being like from there is such a huge plus and I my first professional position was in Utah and there is not a library school in Utah at all. Brigham Young University used to have one so some of my older colleagues had one from there, but so many of the librarians there, at least at the University of Utah, not, you know, like all of the heathens go to you of you, or some, you know, Utah state is a little more, more many because that's in, I don't know, not Salt Lake City. But so many of my colleagues, like, weren't even from, like, the, like, Mountain West area, because there's not a library school there. A few of the, like, staff people.

who were working on online degrees were like maybe from there or had moved there years ago and then we're working on an online master's. But yeah, it was just like a library full of people not from there. Yeah. I know just, I mean, even like my first like two weeks of working at the library. And so where I work is like the blue line ends like pretty much right across the street from where my library is. So the blue line, if listeners are not from Chicago, it was a 24-11. our subway or public transit. So a lot of folks who come in, a lot of patrons that come in are unhoused

and are facing insecurity for food and shelter and clothing. So it's also a pretty big part of my interactions with patrons, but also a lot of folks who are from the city but are kind of transplanted or just not really at the moment located to that area. And so one of my coworkers was like trying to aid this people. patron on the phone about, they were looking for like a pay easy station like in the city and it was like a 55th in Kedzie or something. And a co-worker like didn't know what neighborhood that was in. I was like, it's not that far from here. It's like, you know, like maybe a 15 minute drive. But I was like,

yeah, no, it's definitely like closer to like Midway Airport. Like and I was like, oh, like, did you not know what that was? And they were like, oh, yeah, no, I'm like, I'm like from Indiana. I don't know what the neighborhoods are in Chicago, and I'm like, we literally work at a library, like, just outside of the city limits. Like, I mean, it's like, okay. I mean, like, I understand, like, knowing the suburbs more, because, I mean, there is a pretty distinct divide between people who live in the city and people who live in the suburbs. I mean, like, I'm from the suburbs, and it's just, like, people around here have no idea what's going on in the city. It's their own, really because of their own ignorance. But anyway, it's very telling to me when people don't know, like, those.

kind of details about like, like I had a help out a patron like yesterday, I think, or the day before. He was looking to like sign up for like a government subsidized phone. And the website had him like pin a location on a Google map, basically. And his location on his ID was like, it was like in Bronzeville or something. Or it was like somewhere, it was near where I used to live when I was living in the city, like near Bridgeport. and I was just thinking like I don't think any of my other co-workers would be able to like actually figure out like from the map like where this would be like so there's no way to like search you know just for the address it was like so I just I think it's a very telling thing of the field that there's not a lot of programs that are centered in a city like that I mean I guess there is there has to be like programs like within like New York or like LA I mean obviously UCLA is like within Los Angeles but I don't think there are a lot of like major metropolitan cities that have library science programs like that, which is like where a lot of people are employed and like a lot of people need assistance. Like that's, yeah, it just seems backwards to me.

And then there's this dichotomy of like where it's like staff slash library workers not in library roles who are maybe more local and then the people with the ML, like the library degree or people have more traditional library roles might not even, and this is doubly true in like academic libraries, but I assume the same thing happens in public libraries as well, where if they didn't get their degree online and are local, then they are from somewhere else entirely. And so then it's like, because I'm not someone that's like, well, if you're going to work, you know, you have to be from where you are because like I've got the hell out of where I'm from as quick as possible. Oh, yeah. Like, you know, like, fuck that. But it's this interesting

dichotomy that I'm now just thinking about of like I'm not someone who wants to get rid of the degree. I think it has its use. But the way that library schools are sort of distributed versus the types of roles that are, the degree is used for, it does create this kind of local versus, like this towny versus someone else type of dichotomy

in libraries that haven't really thought about before. Yeah, I think a lot of that has to do just with pay, too, because, like, we've, at my library, we've had a really, we had a hard time finding qualified IT workers. And part of that is because where we are, the salaries are much lower than, say, Seattle, which is only a couple of hours away, that kind of thing. And part of it is just that, like, nobody's going to move to this area for a 15-an-hour job. It's all people who are either looking for jobs because they moved there because of a spouse's job or something already,

or, you know, like they're looking to get a part-time job while they're in school, you know, and there are plenty of people who are full-time and have been full-time in the library for a long time and have, like, moved up the ladder that way. But the grand majority of them don't go on to taking library positions, within the system. And almost every librarian we've hired since I've been, since I started at my library now, like three years ago, almost every single one of them has had to move to the area, including any administrators. So yeah, there's definitely a pool problem. And like we have a community college, but if you're going to really go for like a major university, it's like University of

Washington Tacoma is probably the closest one. And that's not even, you know, the big campus. So yeah, I think with the education divide and the pay divide in a lot of ways, that really accounts for that. Yeah. I think it also has to do with how often those library jobs open up because we don't, we haven't been able to open. Like, we have probably three people who have their MLSs who are local, but are not in library and jobs because we haven't been able to open any library and jobs in the past like four years. and the public library is just kind of given up on hiring MLS people. Really? So our librarian that we hired most recently was working at the public library system,

had an MLS and was probably the only person in the library had an MLS, including like the director. I don't like the director had one. So, yeah, people do ask me a lot like, because I meet people around here and they're like, why'd you move here? I'm like, for a job, you know, just opened. was a job I wanted. I want to live different places in the U.S.

You know, it's easy for me to do. But, yeah, like waiting out for a job, it takes years. Yeah. Yeah, and you spend those years working something else or, I don't know, yeah. It's just too many, like, gaps. It never lines up. It doesn't, I think if we started a library school, it would create too many MLSs. But then it's also like, because while you're waiting, you would just move somewhere else

for another job that opens up. Yeah, I wonder why there, maybe that is the reason why there is an MLIS program, like, in Chicago, because there would be such an oversaturation of people, and there would be, you know, not a lot of jobs, but too many people with degrees. I mean, it's already the case anyway, but. Or it would be like it would have to limit its acceptance rate so much, that it'd be like, why have this in a city if you're going to only have so much, like, only admit so many people? It's almost certainly why because for a lot of programs, their job placement stats are what determine their funding.

So a lot of, this is why I wasn't able to do a history PhD when I was still pursuing an academic career. The year I graduated and was looking into history PhD programs, no professorships were opening. So there were some programs that were admitting zero new students for that year because they're like, we project there aren't going to be any seats open. And if we can't place you, then that makes us look bad in the rankings. Yeah. So it is some like inside baseball shit of like, we're pretty sure we can get like four jobs this year like for our graduates. But the library school I went to, they were very clear. They're like, we will not hire you at the university library if you graduate from here.

I don't know why that rule existed, but they were very, very clear about it. At least like not immediately after grad school, I'm assuming. or ever. Yeah, basically. They will hire you out of grad school, even if you'd been working there two years at that point. So it was kind of like, don't hold your breath was basically what everyone said.

They were like, just start applying other places because they're not going to open positions for, even if you are an employee for a while, they're probably not going to open a position for you to move into. Because, like, I don't know, they just said it like made them look bad to only hire their own graduates. So I think that's probably the same I'm thinking in terms of putting an eye school in the middle of a city to create its own librarians. Yeah.

They could just kind of rely on the whole prestige game that academia plays. So it's, you know, in another country, that wouldn't be the case. Another country, like a law school is an undergraduate degree. And then you do four years of internship practicing law. And then you're a lawyer in that country. Right. Well, yeah, even like the big prestigious universities. like you Chicago and Northwestern and like, I mean, I'm very surprised UAC doesn't even have a library science like curriculum at all.

It's just, it's just very interesting for for schools that are like R1s, like at least kind of some kind of education on this. If you're going to be so, so, you know, front loaded on research, you would think that there be an emphasis on library science. But yeah. I think it's like a big commitment to get the ALA accreditation. is kind of part of it too. Yeah. They really like creating new grad programs that are easy and have no external accreditation. I know my university.

That's so true, though. Yeah. I know our university has like, our former EVP was also head of new graduate programs. And he kept asking our dean, why not start a library school? And our dean was like, I don't have a PhD, one, so I can't be the dean of the library school. And two, like, we can't just set it up and have it running. Like, it's got to get external accreditation. And we don't have any faculty who can teach library science.

So you're going to have to hire a whole new department of faculty to do it. Yeah, I know when I was at Utah, what they were trying to do, because it's like they were like, oh, we should be, we should have a, you know, a library school here because there's not one in Utah. But what they were trying to do first was, you know, because University of Utah had the library, had faculty, it was technically then at college and had a dean and everything. And so they were like, well, what if we started teaching, like, credit-bearing courses, like, where it's like, instead of just doing, like, instruction and doing, like, one-offs and stuff, like, some of our librarians could teach, you know, there could be, like, a class every freshman takes. It's, like, credit bearing and we grade things. It's, like, a way of, like, first we'll do this. And then maybe that will set us up to do this. To do this. this other thing later. I think I know, like, I feel like that's not a rare thing for an academic library where the librarians have faculty status to start branching into like teaching courses as well. Yeah, UIC is like that. Oh, is it? Yeah. Shout out to Paula Dempsey at the UIC, by the way.

Shout out. Yeah, she's, uh, comm sociology liaison. But yeah, but, you know, they hold faculty positions and it can get tenure and it's the whole thing. Yeah, even at my position where we're not faculty, if they wanted us to teach a course, then you would just be an adjunct. So the one credit research course is very common model. But trying to build a library program off that, I don't know. So, Kate, to wrap up, would you have any advice to give people who are pursuing a non-librarian job in libraries and, you know, or anything?

that you would want to tell them people who are interested. I know we have students who listen, who are interested in libraries. Cool. I would say that working as a library assistant is better if you have customer service experience

or if you're, you know, like you have the kind of as Sadie said, the hustle or like, you know, the ability to want to jump in on patron interactions. I would say that's a good spot to start if you're looking to have, you know, broaden your horizons in that end. If you're already, you know, interested in libraries, but don't have that kind of interpersonal experience.

But, I mean, I'm new to this myself. So I think if I had to give myself maybe advice, like, before I started, I would just, this is a good question. Because, like, yeah, I feel like, I feel like there's a lot of things to learn. that are like librarian related but are also like IT related that I think are really important or like moving beyond your own position I think as much as learning as much as you can be on your own role I think is probably the best idea like if you are in a like public library especially where you can like jump between different roles and you can get a better experience that way but I mean

yeah like knowing your boundaries in terms of like you know what work that you can do what work that you should do, like, in terms of how you're being paid. There was a situation, like, that happened a few weeks ago where we had a patron who came in. He were, like, refused to wear a mask. And my coworker and I, like, definitely had this sort of moment where we both kind of realized that we don't really get paid enough to, like, have a sort of intense, aggressive confrontation with a patron.

And I would just say to, yeah, people who are in non-library in roles to, like, consider your worth as a worker. and that you probably don't get paid enough to do a lot of stuff that you do, but you're better for, I don't know, I don't know what to say. I think that it's good to be absorbent, but also, no, have a good sense of your own boundaries. Yeah, I was definitely given advice to work in a small library so that you would do a little bit of everything. And I was lucky enough to actually end up doing that. So, yeah, they were right.

The more you were able to pick up in terms of lots of different positions will be better in terms of, you know, I've got colleagues who don't know how to use a checkout system. They're all the same. Yeah, like, I feel like if you start off with like kind of a wide range, even if you plan on going into something specific, eventually if you do go to library school and want to be a librarian, it helps you even understand your more niche role if you kind of. of have like a, you know, know the playing field kind of. You know, you know what your place and your function is within the larger system kind of thing. It gives you a better perspective. I was just going to say that working at a small library too, like I have a lot of interactions with my director, like pretty directly. And I think learning a lot from those interactions

and like understanding like the, how the like roles can collapse pretty easily and working in with only a staff of less than 50, I think it's also kind of important to reflect on and be cognizant of the ways that your labor can kind of be collapsed, kind of like context collapse. That's more people than my library has, and we have three campuses and 30,000 students. Yeah, I feel like my staff is probably like 30 or less, if I had to really think. But, yeah. Well, it makes me feel a little better about how dire our staffing is.

no that's good sorry for interrupting so much i feels like there was a weird lag between our streams because i kept being sure it's all good so anything final for you say good night don't post never post i need to stop posting yeah i treat twitter like i treat like i treat a tumbler i just retweet a lot of things same yeah yeah i saw on twitter right before i I logged on to this that they got rid of, if you swipe to your left, they used to show your following and followers. And it didn't for the moment that I refreshed, but I think it's showing it again. Yeah, I can still see it. Okay, good. I was like, if they're making more ways to make us addicted to knowing who likes us and who doesn't. I'm glad they got rid of the, like, really wide photos that were taking up the whole screen

that bugged the shit out of me. I swear, I think they don't have a UX design team. I think they just make changes, and then they decide to keep their not based on the outrage. Like, that's their UX testing. It's just based on vibes. Vives-based U-X instead of like UX experience. It's like vibe VX.

Right, right. Well, thanks for being on. Yeah, this was great. Oh, yeah. Thanks for listening to me talk about my nice new job that I like. Hopefully I get to do more of this stuff. Yeah. All right.

Good night.