librarypunk - 055 - Feminist Scrapbooking

Episode Date: June 9, 2022

This week we’re going to talk about the scrapbooking industry, how information is saved and accessed in scrapbooking, the knowledge management aspects of your daily life, and what hides in Justin’s closet.    Kristin's instagram account with photos of lots of my Daily Pages -- my daily scrapbook practice This is a long-ish interview of me (by one of the big modern scrapbook people) and she does a great job of talking to me about most of my projects and values: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cbx3dtKFhd2/  https://www.craftyassfemale.com/ podcast https://theawesomeladiesproject.com/ Main website Kristin’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/rukristin  Media mentioned: Justin’s how to build a white box: https://complaintificate.tumblr.com/post/81389437835/for-photographing-some-of-our-smaller-rare-books  Glowforge machine: https://glowforge.com/ John Bagford: https://manifold.umn.edu/read/cut-copy-paste/section/9ae020aa-7be0-44f7-8b60-53a77616fcef#ch03   

Oh, my God, to look at my drops, I have to look away from the mic. This is going to give me fucking... Neck problems? I'm going to break my neck. I'm over 30. I can't be doing this. It's kind of demanding physical labor. Work comp. Yeah.

Drop the knife. Fuck you. I'm Justin. I'm a Skalkan librarian. My pronouns are he and him. I'm Sadie. I work IT at a public library and my pronouns are they then. I'm Jay.

I'm a librarian. I'm not going to say what kind right now. And my pronouns are he him. And we have a guest. Would you like to introduce yourself? Hi, I am Kristen Tweedale. And online, I'm known as Are You Kristen, feminist Fabucker? And my pronouns are she her. Welcome. Do I have any segments? It's been a while since we recorded. So I think there was some shit that happened. I think I saw somebody dunk in on someone.

I don't, I feel like I haven't opened to Twitter in like three whole weeks. So I don't have anything to contribute. Your mental health must be great right now. It kind of is, actually. Yeah. Remember when I was put in Twitter jail? And I was like, oh, this is kind of nice. It's like a vacation. Yeah, a little bit.

Yeah, I feel like someone said that like we shouldn't, like, library should be privatized or something. Oh, yeah, yeah. It wasn't the guy that I thought it was. I thought it was going to be the Forbes guy again. Because apparently he does that like every couple months. The Forbes guy, our mortal enemy. Can you be, can you imagine being dedicated, that dedicated to a wrong opinion?

Yes. I get what that means, like, you can just say that, but, like, what does that actually mean? You'd have a subscription to it. It'd be, like, Netflix. Yeah, I think there already is. Also, there are already private libraries. Yeah, Amazon exists. That's what I mean, like, okay.

It's sort of like when the libertarian says you should privatize the police because, like, that would make them accountable to, like, it's like, how? In what way? Yes. I'm excited to talk to you guys today. No, if I don't get to dunk on the police at least once. Oh, Officer Friendly's here. Fuck the police. There's some good ACAB graffiti on the little walk in the woods on my campus right now.

I walk by it every time I'm on campus, it's pretty great. Cheers me up. What is? Pigs? No, it says ACAB. It's like really nicely, like, stenciled. someone took the time to make a nice stencil. It's like very graphic.

Like they took some time for it. They cared about it. I kind of want to turn. I have an old computer monitor that's like not quite. It's like a flat screen, but it's not quite a flat screen. It's kind of like this thick. Oh, yeah. I know what you're talking about.

Yeah. And it's like a 720P one that I had in like undergrad. And so, but I never got rid of it. I've always had it as a backup in case like something breaks because I just keep stuff like that. I don't keep anything else. But I'm thinking about turning it into a light table. You know how when you were in art class? You would put a stencil on top of the thing.

When you get like the Fisher Price ones? I had one of those. I didn't have that. I just had one in art class. I remember I really liked because you'd have the light in the box and then you put something on it. You could trace over it. And I wanted to do it to make stencils for like T-shirts.

Didn't you put stencils on the Twitter one time? Yeah, I made stencils for the podcast. But I don't have very good Xacto knives. I bought like a little case of them. but they're not sharp. What I've learned is, like, the best kind of little knife to buy is those little breakaway knives that they sell at the hardware store. Those are freaking sharp as hell.

I use my tablet screen behind my cross-stitch because I like to work on black Ada. So it's like, I need a light box for my cross-stitching. We don't have a pay draw, but if we did, it'd be to buy us all light boxes. When I was a graduate assistant, and I built a white box. You know how in special collections, people will have like a white background for their little books and stuff.

I just got bored when I was on the desk and I built one. And because we had these huge, I don't know what they were for, but it was like this huge lights. There was some kind of craft thing, but like I don't know why it was in the library. It wasn't a scanner.

It was just a light table. And so I just built a cardboard box because someone on Tumblr was like, here's how you build one. And so like I posted like, hey, I built it. And I took photos and everything. There's a whole post from like 2014 on my tumble.

I'm my Tumblr. Kristen, do you do any cool light things for your scrapbooks? I guess we should let you introduce why you're here. We have a guest, by the way. Who is like my friend? I do lots of crafts. I've done all sorts of crafty things. And this conversation has me thinking of all the really cool things that, one, I do.

And two, I have wanted to use the library's resources because the library, our library is, we have one of the coolest public libraries that I've ever been a part of, and it's funded, like, really well. And it has all these great resources, and you guys were just talking about stencils. And the first thing that came to mind was like, oh, well, I can just go to the library's like Gloveorge machine and use their 3D printer to, yeah, I know. And it's like, well, if your library has resources like that, just- What fucking Carnegie's are funding your library? Yeah, savor that. safer. Don't let it go. Well, that's what I was saying. You guys were talking about moving when we got chatting earlier.

I love this town. I never want to leave this town. And I grew up in North Jersey, right outside New York City. And now I live in the middle of Michigan. And normally, when you move from a nice liberal area into the middle of the heartland, it's not really, it's a culture shock. And most of the time, things are not funded. will. But we have a really great library and it's awesome. But yeah, I do lots of crafts.

And while I don't think I've done anything, that's not true. I do lots of things with light concerning photography because I am a scrapbooker and I own a feminist scrapbook business. And one of the reasons I got into scrapbooking was because more than anything, I love documenting my life with photos. And even before I had a little camera in my back pocket constantly with my phone, I always had a camera on me. And I just always wanted something to do with the photos. It wasn't enough just to have the photos. I needed some way to organize the photos.

I needed some way to explain why the photos were important and what was going on behind the photos. And it wasn't just enough to write them down in a white notebook with a black pen. It wasn't even enough just to write them down in a notebook with colored pens. It needed to be more. and through the years I've learned that every single different part of what goes into a scrapbook is part of the story that's being told, is part of the documentation, is part of what is actually being archived. It's not just, you know, birthday. And even if the story is about birthday, it's maybe you pulled in a piece of the wrapping paper on a present. maybe you use a card.

However you wanted to, and maybe you just used some pretty scrapbook paper. Whatever choices you made, whatever decisions you made, even in the aesthetics of what you're doing, all of those choices matter. The photos, the words, the creative supplies, and whatever it is that you're pulling in from your life. All of those choices mean something. So hi, that's me. That's fucking transcendental. It was a bitch in opening. I already took a little note to put my little Zetelcast in.

I was like, ooh. So I only have sort of a base understanding of scrapbooking based on, like, my grandma's scrapbooked. I have some scrapbooks. I've processed scrapbooks in special collections. So I've, you know, they are a very common way of that things got preserved for a very long time. There's also, like, really interesting collections of, like, early modern that,

that guy who cut up all those early modern books and like type faces and binding types. And he was like, oh, this is really cool. And people like hated him for it. People still need him for it. Oh, that like that presentation you and I both went to. Yeah. Yeah. But it's like if he hadn't done that, it never would have been preserved really.

So like it's a scrapbook and it's like a whole bunch of books that just otherwise wouldn't really be around. But not even books, but like title pages. He was really interested in title pages. I mean, it's just book after book of them. But I've also processed like geologists, scrapbooks and people who did stuff like that. And I think the old in Tampa, that was where I was a graduate assistant, there are these societies. I'm forgetting the word right now, but they're sort of like mutual societies.

So they would run like doctor's offices and social clubs. So you'd have like Centro Asturiano, Centro Cubano, Circular Cubano, or Circulocubano, Centro Italian, Central Español, and they were all, and they all had a bunch of scrapbooks and things like that that they would create as part of like their membership events. So that's, these are the things I know about scrapbook. I know very little about scrapbooking, which is kind of surprising considering I was raised Mormon. So I see in the notes that you have a, I didn't get to reading it, but the Mormon wiki link. And I'm like, oh, God, Do I want to click that and have some sort of like horrible flashback? So scrapbooking is really interesting for so many different reasons. And I personally like to believe that I fall on the more historical documenting side of things, even though I definitely have very strong roots in what is this modern scrapbooking.

I even want to almost say, like, I mean, it's scrapbooking rooted in capitalism. It's scrapbooking rooted in not even just commercialism, but corporatism of corporations who subsume other companies and promote a certain type of, scrapbooking in order to make it appeal to not necessarily the masses, but a certain type of mass consumer. And that was incredibly popular in the early 2000s. And there were scrapbook stores, independent scrapbook stores all over the place. But with the recession, the 2008 recession, and further, all of those stores closed. And that sort of boom, of scrapbooking just kind of died out. And so scrapbooking as this thing that would be really big

in the big box craft stores, and it would take up three or four aisles in its heyday, now only takes up an aisle. And most of the things that you can see in the stores there are also crossovers with other crafts, like planners or things that you can use the die cut machines, the cricket machines, or people do things they make crafts on Etsy and whatnot. But that corporate scrapbooking, this scrapbooking that's rooted heavily in product use and is run by a few companies persists and lives on. And that's how you get most mainstream scrapbook products

is from a few now very large companies. And when you see, when anyone says, oh yes, I think of scrapbooks, my grandma. that's what they're talking about. When they talk about things like creative memories and the scrapbook parties that, you know, the moms and the grandmas and the aunts would have, that's the type of scrapbooking that most people think of. They think of really big albums that you sit on the couch and somebody puts the scrapbook

album on your lap and you flip through it and it has like six photos on one page and sometimes you cut the photos into shapes. And that is the very corporate style of scrapbooking. And it has since evolved into, you know, different styles and different looks based on what sells in any given season, which obviously has to change, so that they can sell you more products in every different season. But that is pretty much the opposite of what my kind of scrapbooking is. And the company that I have, like what I do for a living came out of the fact that mainstream. scrapbooking was not serving just like a hell of a lot of people. And the type of person that the mainstream scrapbooking industry was serving was so narrow that it was just downright

bigoted. And like not even just for the time, it was just like in order to be a good scrapbooker, you needed to be married and have two and a half kids and have the right husband with the right job so that you could stay home and scrapbook. And if that wasn't your life, then you weren't welcomed in the scrapbook industry. And like, that's like, it's such a fucked up message. And not only to people who don't want to live that kind of life, but to every single person who just can't possibly live that life. Like, what you're saying, your stories don't matter. And like, that's, that's such a fucked up message. If you, that it's so, it was just so appalling that I just needed to do something about it. And I am the last person on earth that ever thought that

she would own a business because the idea of business kind of just, no, thank you. But hey, like, apparently feminist scrapbooking was a need that needed to be met. So here we are, somewhere between 15 and 20 years later, creating feminist scrapbooking for people. So something you said, and I think we talked about this in the little, we touched on this a little bit in like the little Digital Garden Redux episode that we recently did, where you said that the way that capitalism has shaped this hobby, this craft, this form of documentation and archiving and knowledge management and information management, how often now it's packaged with other,

of things. And when you said planners, my like a little light bulb went off because, and I think maybe you and I have talked about this or it came up. So Kristen and I met in the little building a second brain thing I did, not shilling for that, but that's where we met. And I thought feminist scrapbooking sounded cool as hell. And I was like, you have to come on. And something I think that came up that we both noticed was how much people are trying to conflate task and product, project management with knowledge management and information management. And when you said that like planners with, because it's not that like you can't track dates and whatnot, because I was looking at the pictures you sent us. And obviously it is chronological. Like there is time baked into

scrapbooking, whether you're like meaning to or not. But when you said planners, that to me inherently brings in, like, productivity and tasks and whatnot. And that was something we were talking about, like, how does that affect, like, library information management and organization as well? So I don't know if that was something you had noticed in the scrapbooking sphere as well because of the planners and whatnot and how maybe that's affected it. Sorry if I'm derailing what else we're going to talk about. Oh, no, no, no.

don't worry about. I could talk about this and anything that you say for hundreds of hours. You could just pick a topic and this and we can just go. But no, that's a great question. I think literally, like, you can take scrapbooking and it's why it's one of my favorite hobbies. And I think it's one of the things that anyone can do because you can take scrapbooking and anything. And it works. So I've had a podcast. It's called Crafty-Ass Female. I've had it for, I'm going into my fourth year. When I started, my podcast. I co-hosted it with a woman named Amanda. She's amazing. She is a teacher in New York City. She just got married and now she doesn't not have time for the podcast anymore. Totally cool. She invented, because she's an amazing human, she invented something called memory planning. It's where you take your planner and you scrapbook directly in your planner. So you open up And sometimes she liked doing it weekly. So you open up to a weekly spread in your planner. Like a weekly review kind of thing?

Yes. Yeah. And you print out the little pictures you want to use and you put them right in your planner. So like on maybe on Monday you did breakfast. You print out a little picture of your breakfast and you put it right in your Monday. Like the ones she did usually had a vertical view. and then she would add journaling and stickers. And then she didn't even have to really, you know,

there was no other scrapbooking that she had to do. And this caught on and obviously now people are memory planning everywhere. And you can do it in a monthly view too. You know, you can have five pictures that you really like throughout the month, print them out the size of the little square in your monthly calendar, put them over the date. And it's like, okay, yeah, here. This is what we did in March.

Here are five pictures. That doesn't feel nifference. like bringing task and project management into scrapbooking. I'm like, yeah, but like, oh, bringing elements of scrapbooking into other things, that actually sometimes that feels a little more subversive. Yes. Let's absolutely bring as much subversion into scrapbooking as humanly possible. And also bringing something like scrapbooking, which you think of as like this granny hobby, if you bring that into things that are like scrapbooking and fishing, Like, yeah, that's, like, that's really weird.

Like, do things that are, like, really weird. Like, a lot of the pictures I showed you, because I thought that they did a good job of showing some information are travel scrapbooks. Some of my favorite scrapbooks, though, are just, oh, I have too much stuff on my desk today. And I don't necessarily want to lose this information, but I don't necessarily think that this information is necessary

to what I am doing, right now, and it's on pretty paper, and I want to clean my desk. And I have some extra binder rings over here. So I'm just going to grab some binder rings. I'm going to grab some extra pretty paper. I have more pretty paper than I will ever know what to do with if I were a cat and had nine lives. And so I can just grab some pretty paper, put all my little notes on it, use some washy tape or some pretty stickers. And then I have a little bound notebook that I just made of notes from, I would probably call it a week, and then I'd date it for a week, and it would go into a pile. And those are some of my favorite books to look back on, because it's like, oh, yeah, this was fun. This was a good

idea. And if I didn't, this is something that I have problems with. I have more ideas than I have time for. And so I find that if I write ideas down and I don't necessarily come back upon that idea in the next 24 or 48 hours or even a week and I just tuck the idea away, if it's not winding up back in my head, then maybe it's okay that I just put it away for a little while because I don't have time for it in my life unless it's so brilliant that it's like the only thing that I'm thinking about for the next two or three days. Then it's like, oh, okay, then I need to do something about this. If it's so amazing that I can't. get it out of my head. Otherwise, cool, I'm just going to write it down and put it away for a little while.

And is it an important note that needs to go in my actual notekeeping system, which is on the computer and important notes? No, because it's not an important note. It's just a little thing that I want to scribble down on a post-it. But it's pretty, and it's another way of my creative energy really, really, really works when I put pen to paper. And I get inspired when I use pretty paper. And my wallet wishes that that weren't the case. And I could just type everything into the computer. But it just doesn't work like that. I'm looking at like the travel scrapbooks. And I'm wondering, like, do you just like pick up things? Like, do you have like a really big bag when you ever you're going somewhere that you're just like, this goes like, like, like you, I saw maps and I saw like flyers and stuff.

or do you plan it more? I'm going to go to like a shop and be like, okay, I'm going to buy like some stuff that is like, it says Chicago on it. But I saw the maps and stuff. I'm like, you must have just like picked this out of a kiosk. I also think I saw Port Smith in there.

New Hampshire. Yeah. I was like I recognize that church. You definitely. I was wondering if you would recognize that church. Yeah, it's portsmouth. Yeah. I have, well, I love collecting things.

I love collecting paper goods. It is just something that I love doing. I just also love maps, huge fan of maps, just still also really like actual maps. I was that kid that, like, you would take somewhere and then I would just go to the brochure thing, and I would take one of all the brochures. Didn't matter what they were about. I would read them, but I wanted one of each of them. Like, oh, yes, this is free literature. I will take all of the free literature you have.

Thank you very much. And so, yeah, I, and honestly, I learned, I learned how to scrapbook when I was a kid. I was 15 when I started scrapbooking. And when you are a teenager and when you're in college learning how to scrapbook, you have absolutely no money to do it. So maps and brochures are all free paper. So I spent the formative years of my scrapbooking life learning how to do it with, a lot of free stuff, you know, and anytime I would go anywhere, like, oh, yes, we went to the zoo. Okay, cool, you get the zoo pamphlet, and then you got the map of the zoo, and you know you're going to use that map of the zoo because it's, you know, designed very well. It gives information, and it's part of the story, because you can say we went here, we went here, we went here, like. And so part of my storytelling started to revolve around, well, you know, what are the primary sources that help me create my own primary source? And that's,

that's how I view scrapbooking is creating my primary source. Like, I am creating primary sources. So it's like you're taking the ephemera sort of, of your life. And effemirate's a technical term. Am I using it correctly? Yes, you are. No, I just really like that idea of like the, the ephemera, like, of your life. your trip or whatever and then using that not only as like a physical like it's free paper but also that like you're then putting your own context over the top of it so it's like a synthesis because i like to collect for like brochures and stuff too like i have one from like the san francisco botanical

garden that i went to a couple months ago like lying around and stuff and i never know what to do with them but yeah that's sort of memory keeping i just i just i think this is really cool i guess Yeah, there's like an emergent quality to it. I think in the Wikipedia definition for archives, I've been researching this a lot lately because I'm bothered by how the productivity and knowledge management scene uses the word archive. I don't want to yell at all of them for it. But like how archives are sort of, I mean, obviously they take labor and stuff, but like because they're normally about for about an institution or a person that there's like this emergent quality where it's kind of creating itself. as like the person lives their life, the ephemera of their life, is creating this archive. And so that's very much what this feels like, where you are producing the documents for the archive,

and you are also the archivist, and you are like self-archiving your own life. There's this emergence to it, generative almost. Yeah, and I think that that's, so that's the part that kind of rubs people the wrong way in mainstream scrapbooking. Really? Like all the Mormon moms are mad at you? In a way, well, like, so the mainstream scrapbooking has always been sold to moms to scrapbook their families. And up until very recently, very, very recently, it has been considered this like mortal sin to just scrapbook your own life. Because, you know, you're being selfish and, you know, your story is not like, for all of the, all of the, all of the people.

patriarchal reasons that exist. Women shouldn't be doing their own story because taking care of a family is more important. And even getting into the actual historical, but scrapbooking is actually about all of this other stuff. It's been very difficult to really have this conversation, which seems so easy and simple with all of you about how scrapbooking is this process of archiving the moments of your life and you being the one to do it, as opposed to using the pretty things to tell the story of these people who you are in charge of. Like, how dare you use your creative energy on something that's not other people? Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I think once you started talking about the conservative bent and big scrapbook, that started to make a lot more sense to me about, like, why you would need a feminist approach to scrapbooking. And so then, like, my feminist, like, laser eye just, like, popped on. So I just turned, I just opened up. So now it's like I'm seeing the code, right? Which is a really good reason to study feminism because, like, that happens once in a while. Someone will say something.

He just suddenly go, oh, I get it. I understand what's going on here. So, yeah, read feminist theory. There's a lot of it. So you should probably start now. So I went to Hobby Lobby's website and I clicked. That is not to interrupt you, but that is. is what I went to school for.

For laser eyes or feminism? Yes. If there was a laser eye major, I really would have taken that. But no, I was a women's and gender studies major. Nice. I never got around to it in undergrad, which was a shame because I should have. But then as soon as I was in grad school, I was like in multiple feminist courses. And that was just like, oh, this is how theory like explains everything.

Yes. Isn't it awesome? Yeah. It's very helpful. It's an incredibly helpful lens for actually looking at things, which is why feminist scrapbooking actually works, because both as scrapbooking and as feminism, you need a lens to look through how you're going to tell any given story, let alone your life story. And feminism is not, and there is not obviously just one feminism. Yeah, that's why I said there's a lot to read.

But like my feminism, which is an anti-capitalist intersectional radical feminism, that is the thing that informs how I tell the stories in my scrapbooks. So I went to Hobby Lobby's website and I clicked on mixed. I went to the scrapbooking section. And then I went to mixed media. And like, like I said, my eyes are zeroing in. I'm seeing the code. And so like you have little cutouts to say things like memories, Mr. and Mrs.

ABC for your children. Love family. These are like cut out pre-made cardboard shapes. Welcome, love family. Hi, in cursive. Blessed, thankful. Little parts. It's all the live-laff love font.

Yeah. And so I'm like, this is, I can see it now. I'm reading the code. I was once in a Mormon household and there was like the live-lap love font on little decals on every inch of the wall. I'm not used to being in like straight people's houses. So that makes a lot of sense to me, a feminist approach to scrapbooking now. And I like how you stress the anti-capitalist part of the feminist angle instead of like, because I can imagine if someone doesn't know where you're coming from,

that they'll think it's like girl boss bullshit. Oh, no, no, no, don't. Please don't. Like, well. And you're not. You're like the exact opposite of that. Well, like, right. I mean, you can have... Is there like girl boss bullshit in scrapbooking?

Well, there's a lot of well-meaning white women who have had an awakening in the last two to three years, which, again, great, good job. It could, you know, it's better than not. But that's not, I'm not here to start a movement based on imagining things just got bad two or three years ago. And like, I think Scrable. Booking is one thing that, it's one thing to tell your story and understand that your story matters. It's another thing to understand that your story matters in a larger context of other stories. And what mainstream scrapbooking, I like that you called it big scrapbooking. That's fantastic. They don't emphasize any type of diversity. And like, when I say they don't emphasize any type of diversity, I mean that in the same way of, like, you know, target as emphasize any type of diversity.

You know, in June, you'll have pride at the front of the end caps type thing. But like, what does that actually even accomplish other than selling more pride t-shirts? Much of sound of fury, you know? Sure. Now you'll have some pride stickers at Michaels and the scrapbook aisle. And some of the major companies will have some rainbow paper, but that's not, that's not really all that helpful. I mean, it's nice. But is it helpful? That's an entirely separate conversation. But yeah, no, no, no.

This is not white women's scrapbook feminism. And I'm just not. It's just so boring. I kind of identify with this because I only started like cross-stitching like three or four years ago. And like I don't do it like as a very serious hobby just when I think about it. But it wasn't until I realized that I could like cross-stitch like or embroider. I've like tried some embroidering to. like swear words or like pop culture references. Like that's when it really started. I was like,

oh, no, this can be fun. It doesn't have to be this like every time I look at patterns at like Michaels or whatever, it's the same sort of bland, angel, family, idyllic thing like bullshit. And yes, the finding patterns and stuff that I actually want to do is like probably the biggest challenge so far of that. The creative hobby I picked is one that a bunch of NFT bros are in and I'm mad about it. Why do you have to get the one that's just like Mormon moms? Yeah.

I mean, it's probably a lot of hobbies. I mean, I think my main thing is probably video games right now. So that's just like the worst people in the world. But video games is the only thing that I don't have my same handle as I do on the rest of my internet. Everything. Secret. Yeah.

Video games is the only thing I have a secret handle on. Oh. And it's, well, it's because I just don't want people to know that I'm a girl. Yeah. You've got what, because I've got a section like what distinguishes feminist scrapbooking from other forms of scrapbooking. You put in accessibility. I'm interested about that.

Yeah. So I think one of the most important things about what makes. feminist scrapbooking feminist is that it needs to be accessible. It needs to be something that somebody can do with very little, both money, time, experience. Mainstream scrapbooking is not that. It takes up a lot of space in your house. I had a hard time to, like, I was scrapbooking in college, and it just took up, it took up so much room and space. It just takes up so much space everywhere. But I needed to do it in college. I was still doing it.

It's been my thing forever. And trying to keep all that stuff in my dorm with, that was just stupid. And so the things that I have done, I have created different challenges. I try to bring the methods of scrapbooking to formats that are more accessible. So I have this project called Daily Pages. It's my daily art practice. and it is scrapbooking inside small notebooks. And so you can get small notebooks pretty much anywhere.

You can get them at any, like most people have random notebooks in their house. And if you don't, you can make them out of paper. And it is for me a habitual way to get into storytelling. And while it's not something that I date every single day, I do this. And I have done this specific project Monday through Friday at noon since April 1st of 2020. And I've live streamed it for my members inside my membership. And each of these books, I've changed it up a couple times, but each of these books is dated in the front and the back. And this project has been one of the most easy to teach, easy to share, easy to do, easy to help.

people get into the idea of both documenting your life, sharing your stories, using stuff, not using stuff, learning what you like, and not have to worry about like, oh, here, you have to go to Michaels and buy $150 for the stuff before you even get started. It's like, no, do you have a notebook in your house? Cool. Do you not have a notebook in your house? Great. Just go grab two pieces of computer paper, fold them in half, and here's how you get started. And accessibility is not just about like, cool, you only have $5. It's also about you only have five minutes in your day. No problem.

That's all this project takes. Because the scrapbooking industry relies very heavily on women who have a lot of disposable income, not just to buy the products that they're selling, but they also rely on a lot of unpaid labor through what are known as design teams, where companies or will quote unquote hire women in exchange for product. And they will ship out, you know, somewhere between hundreds and thousands of dollars of product in exchange for what should be a very high rate per hour of work.

These women are creating, you know, they're coming up with ideas and creating projects. Sometimes they're creating editing video. Like, and they're not getting, they're not getting any cash dollars. They're just getting scrapbook products. And these are still nice, like, white upper middle class moms. Oh, yes.

And it takes so much time that it's almost always moms who have husbands who have jobs where the mom can afford to stay home. So they're being exploited, their labor is being exploited for the thing that they will then go by with their disposable income? Yes. Jesus. Wow. It's like a fucking Oroboros.

And they always want very specific until last year. It was always women who had a very specific profile. Like they wanted women who had children because those were the women who were buying the products. And so if they didn't see women with children in the display images that were being pushed on Instagram and at YouTube, then the customers would be less likely to purchase the products. So it just reinforces this upper white middle class bubble of people who are involved in scrapbooking. And they're being exploited too. Yeah.

Yes. And it's... Capitalism. Well, the design team thing is not just scrapbooking. The design team thing happens in a lot of the other female crafting. Like, it happens in quilting. It happens in all the needle crafts. It just happens because scrapbooking is already a smaller bubble, the bubble begets a little bit.

The bubble becomes a little bit smaller. But yeah, there's so much exploitation. And the other problem is that so these women get, because the corporations don't care how much free product they send to these women because they already have, you know, they make, you know, 10,000 of one product of, you know, each of their line of the products. So 10,000 of one paper, 10,000 of another paper, 10,000 stickers, 10,000 washy tapes. So, you know, sending out one to each of their 10 design team members doesn't actually cost them that much money. So, but to these women, they adding all that stuff up for retail cost could be hundreds and hundreds of dollars to them.

could be more. And so they are then pushed to use a lot of the product on all of these creations that they're making and shared on social media, which then makes the people who are viewing their creations think that it's normal to spend $30 or $40 creating one scrapbook page, which is insane. Like, that's not sustainable. And that's a conversation we have in my community all the time because no one can do that. That's stupid. It's also just like not as that. It's just not, it's not fun that way. I'm sorry, my mind's just blown right. I have like all these things spinning around and like things are opening up and I'm seeing behind a portal and shit. I'm like, whoa. Fuck. I just opened up TikTok and looked up scrapbooking because I figured this must be where

the derangement must be at its peak. And so, like, all the videos are very much the same. It's very long nails, so straight women. Hey, don't be knocking the, like, leather dye thames here. They know how to get it done with nails. Don't be dissing them. I will fight for them. But it's probably straight girls, though.

It's pictures. It's just pictures of hands and scrapbook material, and it does look very expensive. I'm seeing a lot of Harry Potter. So disbodied. Oh, God. Yeah. I'm seeing a lot of Disney. Oh, fucking Disney adults.

I saw Johnny Depp. Oh, fuck. It says they're all the words. It's my Johnny Depp page. Are you fucking kidding me? This is another one for Harry Potter specifically Remus Lupin? Okay. I wonder if some of the scrapbooking ladies who do the Harry Potter are also librarians who insist on still doing like Harry Potter displays and events.

Probably. I bet there's that overlap there. Oh, Kristen, did you not know about this? It sounds, now you're, now you're scaring me. Oh, come into the dungeon. Not the fun kind, either. We have some pride displays up that are trans-inclusive, and I want to see if we could maybe get like a little Harry Potter doll holding a trans flag.

I could trick someone into doing that. But yeah, we also, we have done like Star Wars themed stuff, and it's just like, but yeah, this looks like a content mill kind of stuff. because they're all like different people, but they're all filmed exactly the same way. Are there any like hashtag sponsored where they're like shilling for a specific fun paper? I mean, that's everything.

TikTok. I'm not on TikTok. All I know is that my dad sends me his when he makes them and he thinks I'll like them. Oh, Kristen, my dad's semi-famous on TikTok. You're muted. Yeah.

Oh, I thought you're, okay. That's hilarious. Yeah, yeah. He's got like half a million. followers. I love that for you. Yeah, it's fun. I'm not on TikTok and I'm 29 and my dad's like in his 50s and he's like half famous on it. I'm like, okay, dad.

Like sustainably, it's not just a viral video. Yeah. So weird. He's not into scrapbooking. Yeah. I should get him into it. He probably like it actually. He's a creative guy.

I should, but I got, I got on there because like someone was pushing their TikTok and then I was like, you don't get this platform. Like, you have to be like unhinged at all times. Yeah, I am not a TikTok. I will say that Instagram is where a lot of the things. I made fun of it, but I missed the people just pointing at things. Words that they put on the screen. Yeah. The three of us never left Tumblr. So. Yeah. This is probably how other people feel about Tumblr. Tumblr's great again. Tumblr rules. I've been on Tumblr a long time and not suffer the psychic damage that I suffer on TikTok like immediately. Tumblr's just a bunch of like bisexuals and trans fags now.

Yeah. It's like all it is. Do I still have my Tumblr? It's great. And they're all reading Dracula right now. You just wait for for the good TikToks to go through peer review and then end up on Tumblr. That's how I see TikToks these days. It's just.

Yeah. It's what you should do. But the thing is there are some some TikToks I love because it's like the, there's a lot of people who cook Mexican food and they're like really. good stuff and it's like oh i want to make that so like i follow a bunch of cooking tictox there's this guy in china who's like he puts out like a video a day it's insane and he's like here's a trending recipe going on in china right now and like a lot of them are really super simple and then he's just like yeah and he's cooking so fucking good yeah and you know what kind of where he's from in china he does

all over cuisine oh really he's like oh this one's uh trending in sechuan and this one's sending me all the sashwan ones i want them yeah but he he he was doing like pick So I want to stay on there for that stuff. But then immediately I'll see something that's like, because it's all algorithm focused if you try and find anything else. And it's just awful. I feel like we need to do a TikTok episode because we end up ranting about it every single episode we do. The bad knowledge management of TikTok. I mean, have you seen the hashtags?

I was just thinking about this. It's like, what is the point of hashtags on there? Because they just throw all of the popular shit no matter what it, like whether or not it has anything to do with the TikTok they're making. Yeah. It's just capitalism ruins everything. I literally this whole time I've been taking notes about like, unless we wanted to do anything else real quick, if we could go into like my bullshit of what I wanted to talk about. I did actually kind of have a question. Yeah, I wasn't sure.

Because I, you know, the whole ADHD thing has, I have tried bullet journaling in the past and that seems to have some sort of crossover with like scrapbooking. But like, I feel like with bullet journals, like Jay was talking about how it's so focused on productivity. But then that kind of went from productivity as a tool, like as just a basic tool to use into like absolutely only being about the aesthetics. Like if you look up bullet journaling on YouTube, it's just nothing but like how I do my daily spread. And it's like this whole like artistic mwashy tape, nine million different kinds of pins. and watercolors, and you don't actually even see how they use it in the end. It's just how they create it. So it's like, it's like almost like an opposite problem. I don't know. I was just wondering if you've seen any sort of crossover in that sort of sense and with feminist scrapbooking.

Yeah, I think that's one of the big problems that I try to resolve. And I think that my community tends to attract very specific types of people. They are generally more educated people, and I don't necessarily mean, like, they have a higher education. I mean that a large majority of our people are in education fields, tons of teachers, and tons of people who are just part of some type of job where you are working with education. We also have lots and lots and lots of people who consider themselves neurodiverse. tons of women who are tons of women who are specifically after 40 are finding themselves

saying hey maybe I have ADHD and finding ways to teach techniques to actually get shit done instead of getting stuck in the but I need mine to be perfect and pretty because if it's not then it's not the it's not the A plus it's not the 100 that I should have gotten on the test It's not the, this is a project I need to do my best. I'm going to be, even though I'm not going to be graded on it, I'm grading myself because I'm always grading myself. And that, that's a big on learning that we all have to do. And that's, and there's like a difference between that, I think. And like the capitalist, I need to be productive and produce and be efficient. And this is actually hindering my life somehow. This will help make it better to some degree. So like, it's a good productivity and not like a capitalist productivity. Right, and they're all tiny, separate mindset shifts.

And that's why I really like doing daily pages, because daily pages themselves are like, oh, if I screw this up, fine, whatever, I'll just do it again tomorrow. Whereas, like, in my other scrapbooks, especially the bigger travel albums, the ones where I'm telling stories that, like, I want to get right. I do struggle with even like an imposter syndrome. almost. Or it's like, yes, I know I've been doing this for 20 years, but I still don't think I'm doing it right.

Or even if I can get to that ideal idealized version of what I have in my head for myself. And with the way that, like, you see, like, bullet journalers and planner babes on YouTube making their weekly spreads, that is, like, that's form over function in just the most unrealistic way possible. Like, I want my scrapbooks to actually tell the stories of my life, first and foremost. And I only have a set amount of hours in any given week to do that. If I try to make it about setting up the most perfect, like, stamping, because I love my stamps, and I think they're the best part, and I love making them, you know, look a certain way. And I would take all of my stamps and stamp rainbow titles on all of my pages. But, like, that takes hours. And, as much as I'd love, you know, rainbow stamp titles on all my pages, that doesn't get very far in actually telling a story or moving the needle forward in actually archiving the things that matter. Whereas the people make in the YouTube videos, they don't actually care about the end product. They just want the views.

And the things that get the views are like swirling the pretty colors around, which is something else I put on the notes. One of the other types of scrapbooking, and this happens in a... all hobbies, but it's very particular to scrapbooking. There is actually scrapbooking, and then there's just collecting all the things. Some people literally just buy the things, and sometimes they just organize them, sometimes they just display them. They don't actually scrapbook. And sometimes the amount of money they spend is astonishing. You could live places for the amount of money that these people spend on scrapbooking a month. It would cover rent in some

places. No joke. And then they don't do anything with it. It's like criminal. I don't mean to get like passionate, but. No, do it. I see that with that whole organizing thing is like, again, that's why I take psychic damage on TikTok is because like I organized all of like my fruits and vegetables. I live alone. It's like you can't eat that and before they all go off. Like people would just organize things like to make something look really pretty.

And it's like, can you really live that way? Just washing berries and then putting them in a thing and it makes the nice pop sound. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The consumption just to be like, oh, this is, I have like all kinds of stuff lined up and it's just weird. Like, no one can live like that. My theory, asshole brain is like on fire right now. But I know we're over an hour.

Yeah, I do, I did remember at the beginning, I've got my little light. Okay, I have a scrapbook. So I can bring this up into the light. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, to do, do, do, do, do. Justin. Justin. Justin. That's not what I was expecting. Did you steal that from the library?

This was stolen from Nazi Germany by my great-grandfather. It was part of the French invasion. Okay. And like a fuck-you kind of way? Yeah, it's just some of the stuff he took back. So these were sold to German soldiers, to Nazi soldiers. Erin Nuregen. on Dane Oh God, it's a scrapbook

of their Nazi careers? Is that what I'm hearing? Yeah, no. They're like... Yes, they were really very good at that. Nazi scrapbooks. Oh, psychic damage. Do you know about Nazi scrapbooks?

Only in that they were superb at a fucking course. They were... There's like marching songs. Fucking Nazis. I'm trying to read after each. I've tried to read it. It's a novel script.

And some of this, I think, is handwritten. Do the white lady scrapbooks look like that? Is that like the shapes and stuff? It is not the shapes anymore. These are much more of the... These are traditional? Yeah, traditional. Like, right?

Like, I have a scrapbook that, does not look like that that I got from my grandmother that is, it doesn't have any photos in it at all anymore. Justin Ronegai. It's from the 1914 World's Fair. Oh, cool. But it doesn't have anything in it. It's just like the shell of a scrapbook. My theory brain is like, ha.

Yeah, no, like, I'm like medium is the messaging so hard right now. You have no idea. It took me crazy. My grandmother obviously took out all of the photos at some point, put the photos somewhere. So the photos are somewhere in her house. And like I just have the shell. And you have all the little photo squares are still in there. And like the notes are very minimal. It's just like name of person. And they're all first names. And it was done in like light ink. So but yeah. But yeah, those are the traditional scrapbooks. So like I have some of the. from my grandmother that were done in again, you know, 1920. Oh my God. It's like a yearbook. It's like Nazi. Oh, God.

Are they signing it? It's a Nazi year book. See you next year. Yeah. See you next wall. Yeah. Sweet Jesus. Nice little.

Next year. Yeah. I'm got in the Himal. So I've had that my whole life. You just have a Nazi scrapbook playing around. I think you just. blew all of our minds collectively. Yeah.

What blew my mind more is, Chris talking about grandma talking the photos, taking the photos out of the scrapbook. And then I'm like, oh, but is it still a scrapbook? What's left behind after the photos? What meaning? Because I just saw crimes of the future. It's like metadata of a scrapbook without.

Yeah. But also, crimes of the future is like, it has meaning. The body has meaning because it's Kronenberg, you know. So I'm like in my whole McLuhan mode. right now. Medium is the message. I took a screenshot, put it in the notes. I'm in a mode right now. Fuck you, Justin. Yep. I was like, hang on. I do it. I think it was when I mentioned historical scrapbooks.

And I was like, oh, wait, I have a scrapbook. It's the only scrapbook I have. Of course you fucking do. Yeah, that actually, looking back, that's like the one scrapbook I would expect you to actually have is somehow a fuck you. the Nazis. That tracks. Yeah. I'm surprised I haven't brought it up before. Yeah.

No, you raised it up and I was like, what's this going to be? Oh, oh, no. For the listeners at home, it was like green and totally innocent. And then you just see like a swastika and you're like, great. And nothing else. So like no context beyond just the swastika. That's what's happening now. That's happening to me.

So, yeah. that's traditionalist scrapbooking. It all ties together. Capitalism, Nazis. Fascist scrapbooking. Mormons. Well, I mean, if the pageantry of fascism, where the patronry where they want to show off, but it's also flimsy and hollow, the pageantry of big scrapbooking, can we tie fascist aesthetics and ideologies to like big scrapbooking? I mean, Hobby Lobby's right there.

Yeah. Are we on to something here? I bet now what I'm doing is I'm looking for Army scrapbooking now. Oh, God. And people can put those like meals ready to eat packages in there? They do. No, this is for the wives. This is what you buy on post.

I, okay. Every area I have ever lived in has been like near a military base of some form. And I have been in some military wives. houses and they have those like shadow boxes, you know, and they have like the various like medals and like, you know, like pictures. It's like it's like the graduation, like the college or high school graduation kind of like celebratory like shadow box with like all of the different like accomplishments and shit, except it's like for military careers. It's definitely a thing. Like, you know, people have the flags in their houses. Yeah, like the flagbox.

I'll fold it up. It's like, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, everyone has a bunch of those if you have, because I mean, a lot of my family are a lot older. So, like, everyone was drafted at some point. So when they die, they all get a folded flag. So everyone just had kind of one sitting around. But I bet it's like a whole industry of like aimed at moms. So your son joins the military and you buy the U.S. Army official scrapbook. Because like none of this shit ever goes away or changes, really. It's all the same. Like, there's a direct line from the manufacturer of this Nazi scrapbook to military scrapbooks made today.

You know, they probably sold identical ones. Probably before the war started, they probably were bought from the same manufacturers. I mean... Just instead of the swastika, it has fucking eagle or whatever. Insert flag here. Yeah. Well, I mean, even American companies would have sold it with swastikas in the 30s before the American companies were nationalized. But yeah, it's all nothing, nothing's new, nothing really changes.

There's a straight line of ideology in some of this stuff. Yeah, I think you've found. Oh. Yeah, that's the one I saw. The United States Army, it looks kind of like a plaque. Oh, yeah. So this company has been making them for, oh, like 15 or 20 years now. And I don't know if there are like U.S. military.

official ones. All of the military wives that I know that Scrapbook don't have any type of like there isn't any like official brand or like official affiliated brand or like a brand that you would get

like on base or any of the stores on base. But there are a couple of companies that make ones that like that are like this Army one. There's you know it has all the different armed services and then military themed products. Yeah, I just clicked on one and it's like

pre-made scrapbook pages and it's army and it's got like the, I want you for the U.S. Army and like freedom with like stars behind it that look like, you know, fireworks and stuff. So. How about when it says America? Fuck you out on it. Background is camo. Like, I mean, it's one of those things like the flag code. Like no one actually follows the law. So like if it uses a military seal, if it uses like a military seal, it's technically supposed to be approved by the military, but it never is. I remember this debate coming up with like Bibles. They were like Bible booksellers that were selling like specific ones for the Navy or whatever. And they're like, did you get that approved?

Sir, sir. Did you get that approved, sir? You know, people like that on the internet. They're funny. It's like no one enforces. Yeah, like with flags. I'll just stick them on each other. They're flag underwear. Yes, the flag underwear. Yeah, you can't wear the flag as clothing, which was an excuse used in my high school to stop Mexican students from wearing Mexican flags around their shoulders. Of course. Oh, so they'll use it against Mexican students, but not. They just said it was disrespectful, not illegal, but it's like they are Mexican kids.

Like, let them fucking, let's see. What have we got here? Print and typography. That's from Marshall McLuhan. It's not his medium as the message book, but it's whether he's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, expanded upon it and understanding media, I think it's called. And the actual, what medium is the message refers to.

It's like there's this table of all the types of medium. And then like it's sort of like what its essence or real message is. And then the content or how it's actually used, which is the irrelevant message. So for print and typography, because it's the new visual print culture. And the essence or real message is principles of uniformity. continuity, linearity. And so, like, the printed word through cultural saturation, like, opened the way for, like, French Revolution and all of this other stuff were, like, by things being printed, it sort

of caused this wave of people being educated, but also, like, being brought in all to the same ideas and stuff. We can see this with, I bring this up a lot, the, like, librarians, a lot of librarians when Ellis Island immigration. was happening where they'd tell people not to read haughty and pernicious books because the books they would then recommend were to help to force like Irish and Jewish and Russian immigrants to like assimilate into white American culture. So print as uniformity. Well, this also is going on in prisons because there was a thing in Michigan where books in Spanish and Swahili are being banned,

specifically dictionaries. Yeah. I saw that. I did. I did. some books to prisoner stuff when I was in grad school. And like the kind of shit that they don't allow is fucking, it's fucking, it's fucking fascist is what it is. But yeah, it literally is. Swahili, really. Yeah. I love people like, who this is not even the widely spoken? And it's like, fuck you. Yeah, but guess, guess what large population of people are trying to reconnect with their roots in prison? Like, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, yeah, that's, that's why. But they're like, it could be encoded language. It's like Spanish, the most Spanish speak. in the world live in this country.

Yeah. Also, like, get you some multilingual staff, bro. I mean, I don't think we need more Latino prison guards personally. Yeah, you're right. It's just such a non-excuse. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's obvious, I mean, when we did the book, the prison library stuff, like the, the censorship is all random.

Yeah. Just reminds me of that one ad. was like the CIA Latina, was it FBI? Oh God. Yeah, it was CIA and there was God, God, so my ex and I made fun of that

so fucking much because she was like saying things like half in Spanish and half in English. Yeah, I was like talking about like CIA diversity. Give me a girl boss or something. There was a guy librarian who did one too and I was like, fucking traitor.

It was probably an actor. Yeah. God, I hope so. actor's a traitor. Well, I mean, you know, the CIA, they have a booth at every fucking ALA conference. Yeah, exactly. I can't believe the AI. Yeah. Maybe Emily will finally fucking kick him out.

She has the power to do that. I don't know if that's something she has any influence over. Emily, if you listen. We're counting on you. Yeah. Yeah. If I can kick the CIA out. It seems really weird that that's such an entrenched thing that, like, no one can get

rid of the CIA booth. Like, who is insisting on it so much? Kristen, do you know about this? I will talk to my people. Yeah, no, at the ALA American Library Association conference, the summer one at least, I don't know. Yeah, it happens at mid-well, they don't do midwinter anymore. But the in-person summer huge giant conference in the vendor hall, the CIA always has a recruiting booth to hire librarians because of their great information skills and stuff.

They need librarians and all sorts of other shit. And every year we're like, fuck you. stop inviting the CIA to have a booth and like people have protested and stuff and then you know freeze speech comes out and all that and yeah it's fucking stupid

free speech to protect the CIA yeah they love their their freeze peach you know that's awesome that's a really great that's yeah awesome free speech to protect the people are being big meanies by protesting the CIA at

the American Library Association conference Finderle. They're the real fascists. Yeah, that's a real... Jesus fucking Christ. Yeah, no. So we try to round out on like an action-oriented question. So if someone was trying to get into scrapbooking, what would you recommend they start with, aside from going to your website, which I'll be linking in the notes? One of the things that I would say is that you're probably already documenting your life

in certain ways. You're probably already taking photos on your phone. You're probably already telling stories either in texts on social media. You're probably already gathering little bits of ephemera and whether you're holding onto it or throwing it out as soon as you get home. I would say lean into whatever of those things feels best to you. If you really like to take photos, take more photos. Or assess the photos you're taking. See which of them feel like they have more story behind them. If you really like journaling, then lean into your journaling more and say, you know, are there stories here that I want to tell in a more visual, scrapbooky kind of way? If you really like collecting things and you have some things like, hey, you know, this would

make a good story. Grab the thing and figure out how you want to tell a story. One of my favorite ways for grabbing a pamphlet or something and telling a story is to just take some label stickers, put it right on the pamphlet and journal right on the label sticker. Librarians love their labeler, so like right up our alley. Yes, literally use whatever you have on hand because that's already going to be your style. So grab the stuff you have, use what you already like to do, and have fun with it. Yeah, I would love to get into digital aspects of it, but we just don't have time. But maybe we can do a whole separate thing on that.

I just love the way you frame things, Kristen, about this. I hadn't thought of it and that Sadie died. RIP in peace. RIP and peace. Oh, there they are. Okay. Sadie, we thought you died. I did momentarily.

Okay. Because I'm a big aesthetics person and you're like saying like, what are these ways that you're already capturing information and like documenting your life? How do you want to make that pretty? I love that so much. And like what does making it pretty do? Does it have to do anything? Right. I like that.

It just like makes people more aware and, you know, quote, mindful of what they're doing. I like that. That's nice. Exactly. I'm glad. That makes me happy. Yeah, I've just been sitting here like with my mouth like jaw drop this entire like recording. Okay.

I don't remember what this drop is. I just have to know. Oh, it's chicken. Okay. Oh, I was like, what? It just says human imitation of upset and that it was too long of a title. Even an invitation of upset. Tag yourself.

I'm even imitation of upset. I'm glad I have had phones on. Otherwise, Arthur would be, like, fucking terrified. He's sitting on the coffee table among the ruinations of some catnip he had earlier. Yeah, there are a lot of distressed cat ones that I was like, well, I can't use that because someone's cat's going to get upset. I've got my headphones on, Arthur. Well, there's listeners, too. Other people listen to this than you.

I don't care. Jay's like, this podcast is for me and me alone. I am the audience. Y'all, you all are a figment of my, like, dying brain or something. You know, this is all happening in the moment of, like, consciousness bursting or something and making you all up. That's why you're so funny. Yeah. That's why you're so funny and smart.

What is your main website, actually, Kristen? So I put the right one in. The Awesome Ladies Project.com. Is there anything else, Kristen, you wanted to plug or let people know about before we wrap up? If you're on mobile, you can also join my website as an app. And it's the awesome ladies project on the Apple Store or Google Play. It's totally free. And you've got that fun, like daily pages, five days, little challenge newsletter thing.

I do have that daily pages, a five-day challenge. Well, Kristen, thanks for coming on. And good night.