librarypunk - 110 - Accessible Instruction Design w/ Anaya

Episode Date: October 26, 2023

This week we’re joined by Anaya to talk about accessibility! Interwebs, Libguides, buildings, Braille Playboy magazines, swear words! We cover it all.  Media mentioned https://www.reddit.com/r/Libraries/comments/17alk55/bookseller_turned_librarian_associate/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaU6tI2pb3M  https://accessibility.umich.edu/assistive-technology/instructional-accessibility-tips  https://udlguidelines.cast.org/ https://dwcag.org/  https://ask.springshare.com/libguides/faq/1065 https://www.tiktok.com/@j2atv/video/7229460849893625131

Yeah, we haven't done one of these in a long time. No, I used to have a list of them. God damn. It's library punk. I'm Justin. I'm a scholar communications librarian. My pronouns are he and they. I'm Jay.

I'm a music library director, and my pronouns are he, him. And we have a guest. Which is like to introduce yourself. Yeah, thanks. My name is Anaya. I'm an accessibility and online learning librarian, and my pronouns are she-her. Welcome.

Thank you. It's great to be here. That's. Oh, freaking bats. I love Halloween. I'm going to hang these off the orange tree. Hell yeah. I'm trying to make sure I actually get trick or cheaters this year.

You should, like, post pictures on, like, the discord of the bats. I put them on blue sky. No one liked them. No one likes my bats. How dare they? I'll fix that. Reddit's in the news. It's not.

It sounds like, wait, it is. I've just been going over our libraries again because it's no longer just, it's, like, more active because I think people aren't as active on Twitter or something. Because you pointed out a while ago that our libraries had stuff. And I was like, wow, it's actually like active now. And people are getting really interesting questions in here. So I was trying to find one that was like useful. But someone's just like, I hate my job. People keep yelling at me. What do you do? I was like, yeah, that's public service. I don't know about that one. Get a better boss to ever for you or something. Unionize. I don't know. Yow back. What are they going to do?

I mean, hey, at least it's not just talking about all the book bands and stuff. I mean, those are also bad, but like, that's all the library news cycle has been for, like, a while now. Now is all our libraries was. It's either that or AI is going to ruin everything. Yeah. I just watched the philosophy tube on AI, ethical AI, and she was losing me for a second, but then I was like, oh, okay, I came back around. Okay, good. I thought it was going to turn to, like, a copyright.

defense thing of like copyright's going to solve this problem and then it didn't so it just got faked out a little bit but I thought that's where it was going I do have one our library that was actually kind of interesting so I'll pull up the question bookseller turned library and associate I'm a bookseller for a big book retailer but I am looking for a change this is our quarreators arc I applied to libraries in my county and I placed in band two it's capitalized I don't know what band two is and I'm moving on to getting an interview my question is cataloging. What is it? We don't do it at my company, but can someone provide me a good resource on where to learn this? I didn't go to school, but I've been with my company for over six years,

so it was a substitute for a degree on the application. I hope to go back to school soon. Please help me out. I'm desperately wanting to move my career along. So Jay, you've been a metadata boy for a while. Cataloging. What is it? We simply don't know. I'm getting endless entertainment out of the phrasing of that question. I am too. What is it? What is it? You know, that's going to be my next time I get invited to do a guest lecture or something. I'll be like cataloging.

What is it? I'll save this question for you then. Yeah, cataloging. What do we do with it? I'll say that cataloging is a library way of saying that, like, we describe things and index them so that both we and our patrons can find them. Most of the time, that's through mark cataloging, but not always. always most of the time you'll be doing copy cataloging, which means you're not doing a lot of cataloging. You're just double checking other people's cataloging.

If there's some sort of inventory skill you have from doing book selling, talk that up. Be like, I don't know Mark. Say that you know what Mark is, at least. I don't, I haven't learned Mark, but I have similar skills and experience doing XYZ. So it would not be hard for me to learn should I take, you know, attend a webinar or read a book. or something. There's a really great, like, a free online metadata book that you could read as well.

So that would be my spin as always, I don't know the exact thing, but I have similar experience doing this. So it wouldn't be hard for me to translate that over. That's my answer. And if you're using your favorite online search engine to learn more about that, it's Mark with a C. Yeah, yes.

Yeah, me getting into a bar at 19. Yeah, um, Tell Mark, I'm here. But good luck. There's weirdly a lot of difference, like, between being a bookseller, kind of working at a bookstore and working in a library. Like, you would think it's very similar, but there's actually a lot of differences, I think, even though there's a lot of skills that are interoperable,

interchangeable, it's just like the perspective and the ethos, I guess, of them that can be kind of different. Yeah. I don't even think cataloging is that important because like they can teach cataloging. The question is like, are you good at doing public service? Can you talk to people? Like this is a librarian associate. Or even if you're doing back in cataloging. Oh yeah, librarian associate. Yeah. Yeah. You're going to be working at the circulation desk. Yeah. Can you work a desk? Yeah. That's the important part. Unless it's like the specialist library or something. And any library hiring person who is worth their is going to see someone who has retail experience and want to scoop them up because that's who

you want working your circulation desk is people who have retail experience, especially working at a register or doing like customer service. Anybody who won't be surprised that they just get yelled at all the time. Yeah. And who knows how to deal with questions and with people who might be frustrated, especially they might be, you know, oftentimes if people are asking you a question, it's because they've exhausted all other options, and so they're already kind of frustrated and insecure.

So if you know how to handle those kind of people, that's like a skill, like when I hire, when I look for, when they give me the list of potential like graduate fellows for me to get student workers, a lot of them say like, oh, I've done X, Y, Z in a library,

but it's not actual relevant work to what I would need them to do. I look for the students who had worked in restaurants or who have worked in retail. That's who I look for. Yeah. Yeah, you never know it's going to be relevant. I always say that, too. Yeah, that's also true.

The students who have worked with, who have worked like at places that did like music lessons, and so I had to deal with angry parents. It's another one that I look for because they also know how to handle people. Yeah. Yeah, just try and be relaxed in the interview. Crack a joke. Yeah, and if there's anything you don't know,

try to find a spin so that like, well, I don't know it in this way, but I do know it in this way. Like I said before, I got a job being a discovery librarian, never having touched a discovery layer because I spun it that I had experience using that one as a patron and as a librarian on the front end. And so I knew how those back end choices affected the front end. And I had no idea what I was doing. Cut along he's just going on the computer, so don't worry about it. It really is. I haven't cataloged in years and all of a sudden I have my, what the fuck do I do in connection? And I'm like reteaching myself cataloging, basically.

I hate connection. Connection blows chunks. It's bad. They haven't updated it since 1982, I swear. Sounds about right. Yeah. It doesn't work. Yeah. All right. That was Reddit. Get off Reddit. All right. Jay, do you want to intro? subject for today? Sure. So Anaya is my friend. And the first rule of podcasting is that podcasts are for making friends and also coercing your friends to come on your own podcasts and all sorts of things. Podcast are for friends. Communism and friendship is what any good podcast is actually about. Just ask

Kora Vanguard. And Anaya's got a really cool job that I thought would be interesting for us to You talk about both like what your job is as well as like the things that you teach people in your job. Because we talk about accessibility and disability in all kinds of realms so much on library punk. It's something that's very personal to both me, Justin and Sadie and also to a lot of our guests. And so yeah, so I guess what is like your job title for one? I thought you already said, but say it again. Yeah, sure, no problem. So my job title is an accessibility and online learning librarian.

So, you know, there's plenty that I know a lot about, but my background is different from people that you'd find in disability services or like an accessibility center at a college. I work in higher ed. And so for me, that was kind of a perfect fit because it's like half library work, half accessibility for the library. Or I should say lia is on library and work on the front half. So that was kind of a perfect split for me. And then as my university library is getting, let's say building an appetite for accessibility, I'm excited about being able to do more with that in that

role. Cool. And I thought another cool thing about your position that would probably be interesting to a lot of our listeners, especially we have a lot of library school students or people who are maybe interested to library school, who is like the core of our audience, I think. Sure. And your job is basically, I would say, 99% remote as well, which is very attractive to all of us of like, oh, a job that's that remote and doing library stuff and not, you didn't, you didn't jump off into the tech sector. Yeah, absolutely. I think it probably could be 100% remote. There was the option for that, But because I do live as close as I do to my library, it's easy enough to go in once in a while. And I've done that to try to build relationships, although I don't think it's fully required.

It's the kind of thing where I'm semi doing it to look like I'm trying to be a team player. It's partially about actually building the relationships and partially about building them in a way that I think other people will see it as an effort, if that makes sense. Because I think for this audience, we all know that, like, you can still build relationships. even when you're not in the same place with someone. But that's not necessarily a view that everybody holds. So once in a while, I go into Boston. Yeah. So in our notes, the sort of top bullet point we have is like the accessibility landscape and library.

So since a lot of your job is sort of beyond the like liaison work is a lot of like helping other librarians make their instruction and online learning. Is it just for librarians? Or is it also for faculty, too, like professors? Primarily for librarians in my department. That doesn't mean that I can't or wouldn't work with faculty, but I don't, I haven't tended to. Gotcha. So, yeah, I wanted to talk about that and position it a little bit because I had a chance to listen to some of the episodes you all have done before and talking a lot about accessibility

and accommodations as library workers, which is awesome and fascinating. really cool to talk about, but the sort of the flip side of that is how accessible are libraries to the people that we're trying to serve, right? And I'm not an expert, expert in all of that, but I did want to delineate that there are a lot of moving pieces to it. The, you know, any, any kind of accessibility that you could think of probably has some version of the library. And then because we're libraries, we're going to make it slightly ours and it's going to be slightly more complicated because it's in a library. So, you know, things like the physical building accessibility is super important. That's not something I do a ton of work with, but I wanted to recognize that

that is important, and it's not something I can talk to a lot. So I've got kind of just a list of all of the things that you might want to consider need to have accessibility in mind. And that includes what you all have talked about before, right? Like for library workers, it includes the physical building. It includes resources, electronic resources. The website and any lib guides, you have, which I've gathered together there because they are both sort of HTML-based, generally speaking, not because they're used for the same purpose, because I do a lot with lib guides in an instructional capacity, which is the next category of things. But I don't do a ton with our website because we have an internal IT group for that. And then you want to think about services

slash assistance, you know, are those things accessible? And if somebody with a disability comes to your service desk and asks a question, are they going to get help in a way that they can actually use it. And so, you know, from all of those things, my focus is really on instruction and also the documents that go into supporting instruction. So I work with live guides. I work with some like PDF Word documents like that. And in the past, I've looked at, I've spent more focus on vendor resources and all of that specific to academic libraries. There's plenty of the stuff that will cross over and apply to public libraries. But I think we all know that sometimes academic libraries are their own beast, right?

And I also do a little bit more kind of just in case work versus just in time. Not that I won't try to make stuff work for folks if they have a documented disability or if they identify a barrier, which is really the more correct way to put that. But a lot of times those folks will go to our Disability Resources Center first. So I'm focusing on trying to eliminate as many barriers ahead of time as I can. And then when folks still encounter barriers, we'll tackle those as they come up. But yeah, I use things like universal design for learning and the WICAD guidelines in my work. And a lot of it is either prepping materials ahead of time, checking things other people have created, or working with

people specifically to help them do things in a more accessible way. Yeah, like anytime I think about universal design, I think about this documentary that I watched where a person was talking about garden shears. Okay. And how if you made them accessible for someone with arthritis, made the handles a little thicker and bigger, it doesn't suddenly make them unusable for people who don't have arthritis. It just means that everybody can, can use them. Because sometimes I think people who don't do, like, accessibility work hear accommodation

or something and think that it's suddenly going to make it harder to use for people who don't need that accommodation when I actually it's usually the opposite. I mean, sometimes it might cause a conflict that happens though. But yeah. Yeah, almost always making something more accessible doesn't make it less accessible for other people. There are exceptions, but for the most part, what were you going to say, Justin? Yeah. Well, I mean, we were talking about this in the Discord today about web design because I don't have any

visual problems except, you know, I wear glasses. I don't have any kind of color blindness. But when I'm looking at a screen, for some reason, anything in like, light blue. I have a really hard time seeing. And so the color contrast, and especially with minimal design and websites, is really bad. And even though I have no documented problems with my eyesight, except that it's just weak, I have to constantly tell, like, we alpha test stuff all the time because I usually try and finagle that into a deal of some kind of the vendor, or like a discount. And I've had to tell them several times, like, you're telling me there's an

X there for Xing out of the window. I literally cannot see it. And, you know, if you just designed it better, I wouldn't have to keep telling you that I literally see nothing there except a blank screen. And yeah, I mean, you've got your instructional accessibility tips there. And part of it is like, yeah, keep it simple. Like keep it large. Design it for as many people as possible. But I'm also curious, being the point person within the library and you're working mostly within the library and not faculty, what?

I'm trying to think of like, what does a typical day look like for you? we've been doing like day in the life of. So I mean, what is like, what kind of comes across your table in the day? Yeah. So happy to answer that. It's going to be a little bit made up because most of my days feel very different. But, you know, usually all sort of log on muddle through email. And that's the like, you know, the various detrius of half the stuff you delete immediately, you know, etc.

There's usually a little bit of reading in there. I actually suggested this to somebody else recently. So I'll say it here, but there's a, there's a WICAG a day. So WICAG is the web content accessibility guidelines. And there is a, there's a resource that if you plug your email in, it will send you one guideline per day, which is kind of a really neat, digestible way to get more, more familiar with the guidelines. It includes examples about what something that is compliant and something that's not compliant would look like. My only hesitation about offering that as a resource, it's really great is that for like WICAG is really built for web designers. and it can be overwhelming for librarians who don't have kind of that background to it. So I would just say as like a caveat, if you're reading it and you're not understanding it, that's not the only way to make your work more accessible. It just may not be the best fit of a resource for you, but it's a pretty cool resource. So I get that.

I'll have a couple of other things, you know, accessibility news roundup, things like that. Part of my time I'll spend, because I am a liaison librarian, I'll spend outreaching to our global campuses, working with faculty in sort of different discipline departments about how I can put instructional content, usually modules. I don't do a ton of live teaching anymore into their courses. And then I might have some questions. The last couple of days, I've had a couple about accessibility related things. And then, you know, I might have, I like co-chair our accessibility committee in the library or we have a lib guides working group, you know, things like that. So I may have meetings like that. And then I, sometimes I will be in one of our shared inboxes or I'll be

working on a project right now. I'm trying to add transcripts to all of our like backlog of video tutorials. So I might do something like that. Yeah, I was wondering how much of the instruction was accessibility related as well because you mentioned like doing instruction, but I couldn't tell if that was the liaison part or the accessibility part of your job? Oh, yeah, both. So I'll do, I'll do like, you know, information literacy instruction for faculty for their courses. Right now, I still have a couple of subject areas. So I liaise to analytics, applied machine intelligence, digital media. None of those things were anything I knew

anything about when I started this job, which is fairly common and has been interesting to learn about. So I'll do sort of information literacy for those folks. and I'll do, you know, additional information gathering about what kind of library resources are even helpful in that area. But then internally, I also do instructional content for our librarians. So I had one group that was like, you know, we don't want to do too much at once. So can you come to every meeting and then for like five minutes or ten minutes talk about one thing? And so we'll, like, I think we calls it like one accessibility topic at a time. So we would just talk about one thing.

So maybe one day was color contrast because you brought that up. Maybe another was not using color to designate meaning, which is another important piece. So we'd take them in little bite-sized chunks so that nobody was overwhelmed by getting a bunch of information at once. But we did that for eight months or something. So we got through a lot of really good content. And then in other times, I might have another group that will let me talk for an hour, which I like to tell people, I'll talk for as long as you let me talk. problem. So we did a three-part session on universal design for learning, and it was kind of active time for folks to bring a lesson plan that they had already taught where we're thinking about teaching,

and then we looked at one third of the universal design for learning guidelines, because it's kind of neatly broken into multiple means of action and expression is the last one we just did. Another one is multiple means of representation. And I'm going to blank on the third one. But there's kind of three big chunks. Here we go. Multiple means of engagement is the third one. So there's three big chunks.

So it was actually fairly easy to kind of just look at one at a time. And then I had folks either look at their lesson plan and say, like, where did students stall before? Where might there have been a pain point? Where do you think needs a little bit of adjustment? And then how can you use whichever multiple. means section we were looking at that day to maybe address this. And then, you know, maybe that wasn't the multiple means category that was going to help address that problem. So additionally, I had made some personas, which I'm not necessarily an expert in persona design, but we tried to

pull together some personas that had different disabilities and just different kind of life stages and things like that so that folks could just kind of try to see the lesson plan through a different perspective and decide if they needed to present something in a different way based on that. So we talked through those. And then at the end, we closed by going through all of the checkpoints for that section and talking through different options or ways that we could do that. And so we've compiled those and kept them, which is kind of cool because it's not limited to just the lesson plan they were thinking about. But maybe they had an idea that they could use another time. I forgot what the question was. So just sort of spoiled out.

Yeah, I forgot to have W-Cag of the day. I do get that. And sometimes I don't understand what's going on, but I feel like a lot of those guidelines are like very specific. But like the one today was like videos or audio description, if it's a pre-recorded audio. That's pretty good, pretty straightforward. I like those kinds of things. Yeah. So speaking of audio description, I think that's, so there's two ways to approach audio description that I'm aware of.

One of them is you make what you're going to make, and then you go back to the video and you try to put in a secondary audio track that describes what's happening visually in a movie or a film or a file, so that somebody who's not seeing it still has some idea of what is happening in a visual sense for that piece of media. But a lot of times, especially in libraries, we're talking about tutorial videos. So either, and we're also talking about folks who are not usually have a huge background in creating video media, right? So what I suggest instead is to really write your script carefully for the video so that what you are saying in the video describes what you are doing and allows the viewer to follow the steps you are doing just with one audio file. It takes a little bit more pre-planning, but I think it's going to end up as a better result for the student. It also helps if somebody flips away from your video tab to go try the thing you're trying to tell them to do if you're giving really explicit. instructions, they may not have to flip back to another tab to see what you're doing to follow the instructions. Yeah, that was actually when I was in grad school. My graduate like assistantship

was in reference and instruction. And I think that we were taught even when you're not on video, but even when you're just doing instruction is don't be like, click here. Same as it when you're like making a live guide or something. Never use here as a link. Like here is the devil. Like don't do that. be like, you know, click where it says this on this side of the page. Like, I do that now when I tell people how to get to the library web page. I go, you know, in the top navigation bar, click this word. And then it'll take you to a new page where there's another navigation bar midway down the page and on the far. And I always have to like do the left right with my hands, like do the L's to remember what side of the page that's on.

But like on the right side, on that navigation bar, click this word. Instead of just going, click here, click here and pointing. It's like a good habit to get into. It's a great habit to get into. It's going to make your work more understandable for everyone, which we met we were talking about earlier. And yeah, you bring up writing descriptive links, which is super important.

Click here or go here. They're just not helpful. They don't tell somebody where that link is going. So ideally, you want to, in the shortest amount of words that is still descriptive, right, tell the person where that link is going to take them. And a lot of people don't know this, but you actually want to avoid using,

open in a new link unless you actually have to. And there are some reasons why you would want to. Like if you're going into a database where the authentication protocol is going to break the back button, it's going to like once you log in, you can't hit back and get back to the pages you were on before. That would be a good example. It's just one of when you might want to use open in a new window. But when you do that, you actually want to include a label in the link tag that tells the user that link is going to open in a new window so that it's not a surprising action. that happens when you click on the link. If you're expecting most links to open in the same window and you are using a screen reader and it opens in a new window, you may not realize that that

link has opened. Whereas if the link says open and opens in a new window, then you know to go look for it. Oh, I learn something new every day. Because I'm always when I do stuff in my library's website, I'm always like, if I want a student to click to like a new resource or something outside of the library website, I'm going to have it open in a new window so that they still have like this resource page open. Yep. But maybe I should be rethinking that. It is completely understandable for a long time. I loved open in a new window and it's absolutely, I think, from our perspective as librarians, this is something that we have to like modify our assumptions about what is good practice there because like I'll be the first to tell you. Most

of the things that I tell people not to do, I have made those mistakes for a long time and that is definitely one of them. Yeah. Huh. I find that one, there's like a blue sky account and a Twitter account that tweet out like accessibility tips. And I feel like that one about don't hyperlink here is I've seen that one repeated several times. So it must be one that really gets on their nerves because I feel like I see it a lot. But I can't find the name of the account. If I do, I'll put it in the notes.

But that's another one that's pretty cool that a lot of it is like social media specific. So it's like, here's how to do alt text or don't use your caption. for jokes or I don't know. All of those are good suggestions. The thing that gets me so fucking mad. Oh, yeah, stop censoring your swear words. Either swear or don't. Stop putting a little, cute little ampersands and shit in your swear words.

Because, you know, people who, people you screen readers deserve to hear ass, too. Heck yeah. And also when people are doing, like, content or trigger warnings or something, if they're using filters, like to block out certain words and you are censoring those. words by putting a little ampersands and shit, then they are going to, their filter or whatever isn't going to pick that up. And so then they won't be able to filter that out. Yeah. So you're not helping you. Be an adult. Yeah. Say fuck. Just say fuck. I don't care about the algorithm stuff. Also, this is the thing too. I can't believe YouTube hasn't gotten trouble for this,

but if there's a swear word in a YouTube video, the auto-generated captions, censor it out. I believe it. Which seems really fucked up. Yeah. It just reminds me of the whole like the Playboy Braille controversy. Like, you don't know about this? No. Please teach me new things. The, so I think it was the Library of Congress

funds a lot of the Braille transcription. And so since the Library of Congress serves Congress, Congress got mad that they were using money for Playboy and they wanted to cut the funding. And it was successfully argued that no, blind people have the right to read Playboy. Blind people deserve tits and ass and also the very good articles. That's for the articles.

That's worth the articles. I mean, which they're actually really good. It's a major magazine. A lot of Inipid journalists and like literary figures got published in Playboy because they published good shit and tits and ass. Everyone was like decades ago when it was like really culturally relevant. They were like, no, there's boobies in it. So anyway, stop infantilizing.

Disabled People. It's another part. So what have we got so far? Swear? Titty Braille. Don't open things in a new window. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So if you're going to use things to open, if you're going to make a link open in a new window, use a label. Okay. And it can just be opens in a new window. Like, it doesn't have to be fancy. Okay. Descriptive links. Describe things in your audio. And when you're going to describe things, like, it's, like, it's fine to use the words right and left or, like, green button. But you want to say, like the green go button because some people may not perceive that as green, right? And so it can also be helpful to keep in mind the reading order of a page instead of just saying left or right. A lot of times the, like in library databases, a lot of times our filter menus on the left, right? And so we can kind of say like here on the left before your results because, and it's a little

confusing maybe to think about it at first, but that that left hand tab should come up in the reading order before the result. You can check that that's the case before saying it, but it gives kind of multiple clues about where something is to somebody. Yeah, when making videos, I really always tried to do the captions, the transcript first, so that way I didn't have to caption it, because captioning's hard people. Yep, and it's a little easier when, you know, YouTube or whatever platform you're using auto captions, and then you can go in and fix it versus. starting from scratch, but it still takes a lot of time.

So since we're talking about videos, I actually, like, I would encourage folks to probably not use videos as much as you might think you want to. It's not to say to never use videos, but videos as a media are one of the most time intensive to create. They're even more time intensive to make well. And then if something needs to be updated, you basically have to start from scratch again. So if you feel like your content can be effectively conveyed using a different kind of media, that might be a good call. I also feel like I have a harder time following along with instructional videos when I'm trying to like do something along with it because I keep having to pause and do my thing or like go back and forth. Whereas like if it's text, then I can kind of like,

to me, that's easier to follow as long as someone has written good instructions. Yeah. And even if you like, even if you wanted to get semi-fancy with it, write out your text, record yourself saying it, you can embed the audio file and somebody can push play and hear you walk them through it. But that's still easier to update and create than a video.

Videos are a pain in the ass. Yeah. To be honest. I really only do them to save time internally anymore if I have to just do a quick screen capture to show someone how to do something. Yeah. But like, I'm not going to put one in a lib guide, you know.

No, not really. I haven't made an instructional video a long time. I've put GIFs in live guides before, which I'm realizing now probably aren't accessible. I think GIFs can have an alt tag. Okay. So it's not impossible to make them accessible, I think. Yeah. Yeah, so we actually have a, we do a fair number of instructional videos, and it's a whole process.

And we have one person who's responsible for managing that process. They go through accessibility reviews. They get reviewed. We don't do every single video every year, but we'll have a handful that go through a full review process where we say, like, is this content outdated? Does this need a refresh? And so I feel like at my work, we do a pretty good job of staying on top of, at least the videos that are used for interdisciplinary things. If a subject's special to specialist makes a video and never tells us about it, there's not a whole lot we can do. but at least for the kind of core ones.

And so I feel like I have a really good perspective on how much work that takes to do that well and to have kind of a managed process. So I feel confident in saying, you don't have to. Yeah, I keep getting asked to do videos. And I'm like, no, I don't want to. It's not the best way to do it. They're also not my favorite, Jay.

In some video platforms, you can speed up or slow down the video, but I tend to find that in the same way, that I need to remember to talk slower when I'm presenting or being recorded. I'm terrible at talking too fast. It also annoys me when other people talk a reasonable speed. Like, I want, I want it like three times. So I get frustrated by videos because they always go too slow. And I'm like, okay, just show me, just show me the end. Just, you one of those people that, like, listens to your podcasts or your audiobooks at like 1.5 or 2.0. Yes, yes, I am. Whatever speed. Yeah, I cannot do that.

It bugs, even if it's just like 1.1, I'm like, no, it's too much. I hate it. I don't tend to do it if I'm listening to something for fun because it's, I don't know, I mean, there's no hurry. But if I've pulled up a video because I want it to teach me to do something, I want to learn how to do the thing and then I want to get back to what I'm doing. Like, I don't need a long, rambling explanation of how to do this particular formula in Excel. I just need to know how to do it so I can go back and finish the task. was working on. Hey, guys, if you like this tip for Excel, don't forget to hit the bell and like and subscribe

and share with your friends and check me out on, review me on iTunes. Yeah, comedy podcasts, I always turn off smart speed, but informational podcasts, I have every, I have an individual setting for every podcast, and those have smart speed on because people don't fucking edit right. It's called Remove Silence. It's an automatic tool. It's great. Audacity has it.

I use it when I edit Tinder subject. It removes like a good five minutes. It removes a good 15 minutes. Yeah. And also it's just really easy. I got used to it because Screencast-O-Matic would automatically put a little clip to cut your screencast capture. And so whenever I realized I made an error, I would just stop talking for a second and then start talking again. and then I could move that back and cut out the error because I was making a lot of instructional videos.

This was what I was back at a small academic library. And I had to do such things, such just tasteful things. I don't remember where I heard this tip and I haven't tried it. But along the same lines, I heard somebody suggest using a dog training clicker. Because so you, like as soon as you realize you made the mistake, you click and then you kind of click it again. I know it has such a high, it's such a different pitch from the normal conversational sound that you can actually physically see it on the bar. And so you can just go in and like edit out the the mistake. Did I break you, Jay?

You've got like a really great facial expression. I've never heard of this before. Is that going to upset Arthur if I do that? He's sleeping like a little angel. No. But you have to, you have to be very careful about any puppy girls that might listen to your podcast and you might act. accidentally trigger them. Oh, yeah.

Tinder subject is a sick of a podcast, so we might have some, we might have some perps who were into that. Good for them. They say that affectionately. No, I bought a dog clicker for invasive thoughts.

Oh. Yeah. I stopped doing it, but it kind of works. The bunnies do not like it. I can confirm. People click or train their bunnies, though. I'll just do it at work then when Arthur's not there.

I wonder if my I mean, I heard a click, but... Yeah, I've really good sound dampening because I live on a intersection. Yeah, I should get that because in the most recent Tender Subject episode, you can hear the extremely loud gas station car wash next to me. That was... It's called Ambience. I enjoyed it. Just in the background the whole time.

I was like, what song is that? What song is that? And sometimes you'll just hear people dry parts. past with the really, because like I live in an area of Boston that's got like a huge like Dominican population. So you get people with those like really souped up like sound systems driving by just like blasting. Do my house shakes. Yeah, mine too.

And I live on the third. Awesome. Floor. Yeah. It's really fun. Every day. Yep. But.

You have seen that TikTok right. It's like 2 a.m. And a red Honda Civic drives outside your house and the guy's like on his bed and he's suddenly like bouncing up and down as a body. I haven't been on TikTok in a couple of weeks. You'll have to send that to me. I'll have to go find it. It's really funny.

It's, yeah, it's the physical part of it. I'm like, I feel like I'm having a like a panic attack for a second. I'm like, no, it's fine.

It's music. It's fine. Yeah. Yeah, like some of this, so sometimes I feel like a lot of web accessibility in particular, because often when I've done library stuff, like that's what has been the main focus.

It's like accessibility for your lib guides or for your library website. And it's often focused on people with who are blind or have other sort of site disabilities. And not to say that that isn't or couldn't ever be the case at where I currently work, but I work at a music conservatory where like being able to read sheet music is kind of everyone, and it made me think because I kept getting questions about how accessible like digital sheet music like subscription. resources were. And I was like, then I was like, wait, how do people who incite disabilities read sheet music if they do? And if a person with that, with any of those kinds of disabilities came to my conservatory or worked at it, and like, what would I do? Like, obviously I would know

like kind of what to do with like the website and, you know, some of the more other standard electronic resources. But like, it like totally threw me for a loop. There's Braille. Music scores. Yeah. Maybe I should buy some for our... I just did what I always do now, which is, like, library for the blind and then whatever my next question is. Yeah. So, yeah, Library of Congress, Braille music resources.

But, like, are there other sort of accessibility things that you do related to instruction that aren't just for people with, like, site disabilities? Oh, absolutely. So when we talk about what is accessible, we're talking about, you know, what, like, can something be perceived, can it be operated and can it be understood? And this is a simplification of Wickeg's poor principles. So there's one I'm leaving out, which is robust, which has to do with being able to be operatable between, like, versions. Like, you don't build something that gets obsolete really quickly. And I'm sure that it has other applications, too. but I find this a helpful kind of framework to think about if we're looking at something and being like, is it accessible? Well, you know, based on a wide variety of people, can it be perceived, operated, and understood? So when we're talking about, we just had this conversation in my department

in a session that I did recently about like, well, if you're trying to make your classroom activity more accessible, are you planning to do a gallery walk with your students where you ask them to physically get up and walk around the room? And if so, how can you make that operable? How can you redesign that lesson in a way that somebody doesn't have to physically move their body in order to participate in that activity? And that's a decent example of something that maybe you don't need to totally ditch your gallery walk lesson plan idea unless you have a student who might need that. we try to make things as accessible as possible ahead of time. But there are some cases in which if something is working for all of your students and you don't have somebody who needs something different, it's not necessarily bad to do it that way. But it's not a bad idea to think about

how you might do that activity in a different way in case that's ever something that you need to do. What we really want to avoid is somebody coming to you and saying, hey, I can't participate in this in the way that you're expecting me to. And then have the reaction from us as educators and instructors be, I have never thought about this before. I am totally not equipped to accommodate you in this situation. I have no resources for how I might do this differently. Like, that's what we're trying to avoid. Yeah. Just go to like one meeting or something. I don't know. I mean, hopefully more than one meeting. But it is true that, you know, I don't expect everybody to be accessibility experts, especially not right away. I like to, I like to talk about, you know, we, we need

accessibility kind of point to people. I sometimes call them captains of accessibility because I think it's funny. But we need somebody that's guiding that project of being more accessible because it needs to be somebody's responsibility to figure out what Wicag 2.0 is now that it's just released. It needs to be somebody's responsibility to keep track of the suggested legislature that's coming out of the Department of Justice recently. It needs to be somebody's deal to say, hey, the systems and policies that we have in place are presenting a problem. We need to look at that together and try to make this better. You need to have somebody that you can go to to ask questions or who might say, Wicac is hard and confusing and not really written for us. Here's a version that

is going to tell you what you need to know to be compliant anyway. So having that person is incredibly important. But one person or even a small team of people can't do the day-to-day work for everybody. So it's still everybody's responsibility to try to make their stuff as exactly. as possible as possible. So it's an interesting kind of teamwork approach. Yeah. Also, get that person a team. I hope that would be lovely.

Yeah, expand their services that are ongoing. Yeah, I would, I get accessibility questions because I give a shit. That's all it takes. And so, yeah, I get weird. It's me and the head of access services who get copied on these emails. Like, really bizarre, like emails that have usually absolutely nothing to do with the library, or any of the library services. So it's someone asked for a license for Jaws reader,

which we have a permanent license for like one machine. Sure. Someone was like, oh, we need to proctor a six-hour exam. I'm like, one, no, you don't. No one needs to proctor a six-hour exam. No one needs to take a six-hour exam. What the fuck are you talking about? Is this fucking Inders game?

Like, what's going on? Is this the bar? We don't have a law school. Like, what the fuck? Yeah, if it's not the bar and it's not getting into flight school. Like, I was like, this doesn't need to be, six-hour exam does not need to be proffered. But I think this is assignment design. It's just bad and people don't give a shit. And that's the hard part, especially with like UDL.

I was actually going to ask, did you get any formal training in instructional design or did you pick it up on the job? Yeah, I don't have, I don't have any formal training in instructional design. most of what it comes down to is tying it back to what is the most accessible. And, you know, I've kind of done additional reading on that or online courses that kind of thing to shore up the information in that area. Yeah, me either. But I kind of wish it was part of library school. It's the people I've worked with who I've gotten like instantly along with the most

are always instructional designers. They like get it like that. Yeah. And they're adaptable and they're flexible and they're public service oriented and they're always just outstanding people. Yeah. And it's like, I like to, you know, think that like I try to think through things and some, and then I'll speak to someone who's really in the thick of it more than I am. And then I'm like, oh, fuck, I hadn't even thought of that. And then I kind of feel bad. But then I'm like, oh, wait, I learned a cool new thing that then hopefully I can like make into a habit and like share with other people. Because I'm at a small institution, right? are 300 full-time students at my conservatory. I don't have library staff. I am the library. I am God. When I say I'm a library director, I just mean I'm the only librarian. They just had to put

that at my job title because I like control a budget, right? But then we have like a IT guy, the person who did our website left and we haven't replaced her yet. So I know how to do WordPress and so she gave me an account before she left and just lets me and then so I just do the library website and no one's told me no so far. We kind of have like a person who does each thing. But I am learning that sometimes I am the one person in that institution who knows the most about something. I'm the person who knows the most about AI. So I get asked all the time about AI things. And I've done a couple presentations and I'm helping do policy stuff about it. Just because literally doing this podcast of how much we've talked about like AI and

copyright and everything. So Justin, have you fucking noticed this, that Zincaster, This happened with me and Kate were recording. If you do hand gesture, sometimes Zincaster will, like, do a little, it did, like, birthday, like, things. When I was doing, like, air quotes, it did, like, fireworks or confetti or something. And then we couldn't get it to do it again. I don't know what's going on, but it happened again. It's just you. It just happens to me.

I don't see it happen to other people. And maybe it's a setting I have on. Who knows? But, yeah, it's like what happens when I learn a lot about accessibility. am I going to be the person who teaches this, you know, to people on top of everything else I have to do? Like, am I going to turn into the point person at my institution just by virtue of giving a shit and knowing a lot about it, right? Yes. Yeah, probably.

So, is this a safe space to be cynical for a minute? That's all we do here. Great. Yeah, we hate libraries, fuck books. You're at the cynical store. So here's what's actually going to happen. Yeah, come on up. There we go.

Pause for the dog to join me. We got a dog spotting. Good dog spotting. This is Mordecai. Yeah, I thought I saw Moxie earlier, but it may have. Yeah, she's around. Yeah. So what will actually happen is you will have, you will have a student that comes to your, your college that has a disability that they can.

can't work around without accommodations because lots of people, I mean, you all have talked about this. I'm not introducing something new to the conversation, but lots of people have disabilities and choose not to talk about it or try to ask for accommodations because that process is often so difficult and unhelpful. But sometimes your disability is visual or you absolutely have to have a screen reader in order to do that and there's less of a choice about whether you're going to disclose that, right? So somebody with a disability like that is going to come. the, you know, and it won't be just the library. It'll be the entire experience, but plenty about the physical campus will likely be and also the resources they need for their classes and probably policies will all be inaccessible to that person. And then a couple of things might happen. They will put up with it. Some one person who already has three jobs will be assigned as the ADA coordinator or, you know, whatever, the person who's now going to make sure that this person, the student has what they need. And they will, be also doing two or three other jobs at the same time, so they won't do that particular job

very well. And that student will try their best to do what they need to do to succeed, which will probably mean asking people whose job it isn't in order to do certain things to them, for them, so that they can get the resources that they need in order to do their homework, to go to class, right? And then they may or may not submit a complaint with, shoot, I'm blinking on it. It's not the DOJ. it's the, I don't know, either submit a claim through the Office of Civil Rights, that's that one, or file an ADA lawsuit that things aren't. So, like, that's what will probably happen. Ask me how I know. Or even worse, they'll just quit.

Yes. Yeah. Yep. Getting sued is not the end of the world. No, no, no. If it's what it takes. Yeah, no. I'm actually, I have, I'm not, I mean, litigation seems to be. the most effective means that we have to make a lot of things more accessible.

That is not the worst case scenario, especially if it's a large institution that really should have been doing things better anyway that has the resources to approach that. It really is not the worst case scenario. What I think is really rough is when we have students who come into a situation that they've been told they're going to have what they need to succeed, only to discover once they're on the ground that these solutions are being built sort of underneath them, the people who are supposed to be providing some of those resources for them, also have six other jobs, and are not necessarily, like, amazing at that kind of thing.

I'm not amazing at it. Yeah. I mean, that's how I got into accessibility work, because we had a, we had a student who was visually impaired and wasn't getting what they needed from our accessibility center on that campus. And so I ended up working with the student a lot. The library bought a license to Jaws, even though it wasn't like for a computer in the library, we just needed the student to get, like, be able to read their homework.

Actually, I think it was a computer in the library, but it was specifically one for that student. Anyway. Yeah. Yeah. Because I didn't even know, like, how our JAWS license work. I was like, oh, shit, do we have an ongoing thing? Do we have, like, a lifetime license? But, yeah, it's, I remember being at a smaller college, the person who I think handled, like, all

the ADA stuff also literally did have two other. job titles was like head, like director of student success or something. It was like one of the top three positions in the university. It's like a senior administrator. Yeah. And just very overburdened. And I think it's an important question to talk about is, you know, what does what does it look like to try to make what we do as accessible as possible while still being cognizant of the fact that almost everybody is overworked and is asked to do too many things, right? And I don't think that is a simple question to answer, but I guess I'll reiterate that accessibility is important, and it's also important to take care of yourself. So as far as solutions go, I would try to keep it as simple as

possible, right? That's kind of, that's not a full or complete answer to that problem, but if we keep things simple, they're easier to keep accessible, and it allows us to balance that a little bit better. Tell the student to sue. Well, I was trying to offer very general advice, but yes, all said. Honestly, what I would do after I hit like a wall trying to help someone. Like, you know what you should do? Get a lawyer.

Get a lawyer. Yeah, like, a thing I'm thinking about is like, you know, if I'm the librarian, and so I do everything, is it like, realistically and cynically, if I know that, like, right now, there are no

visually impaired students or faculty, is it worth it to, like how much effort do I put into making things the most accessible possible for visually impaired people until like when there's not necessarily that need at the moment and do I just know how to do it in case that need arises? Or do I put like spend a lot of my time doing that when I might not have that time and there's not a need for at the moment? I know like and I know that sounds bad. But like capitalism did this to me. So I feel like we're now getting into specifics enough, and I feel like I need to say the disclaimer of like, I am not a lawyer trained in ADA law. I am not offering, you know, specific advice.

I refuse to be. But like if I'm making a lib guide or something. Right. Well, that's the advice that I would offer to you is I, if I think with a limited budget and based on the resources at hand, unless there was another factor at play. So I'm trying to say this in the most like legally as possible. but I'll stop. I would probably not collect for Braille sheet music if I didn't know that I had a student that would need that. And I say that because there are services that can translate things into Braille.

Of course, it costs money. But there are having two copies of the same thing, one in print and one in Braille, may not be the only solution that you have and collecting for that way ahead of the fact is not the only solution that you have to that one particular case. And you also don't know if like the next student that has a disability that you might need to do something for may not be a visually impaired student who reads Braille. Right. Yeah. So like I'm sure there's a lot of other like small like librarians at smaller institutions that like can like relate to it's like or like specialized collections where it's like you know, maybe there are other music librarians where it's like well it does happen if someone who can't reach sheet music comes in here.

Right. Because they have like a visual impairment or like someone at an enough. kind of, you know, place where it's that, that need hasn't arose in, arose, arised. And there's also, like, there are libraries for the blind. I'm not sure how ILL works with those libraries, but there, you know, there's other, there's other things where I would put more energy is if you, and I say this, like, for some folks, and depending on the library size, the idea that they may ever have a renovation might be kind of laughable, but like, the university has decided that that's what they're doing, is they're renovating the facade of the library

and they're going to put it in a new door, right? I would be very annoying to whoever is working on that project to make sure that it is as accessible as possible because it's a project we're doing now, and that is a big thing that's hard to change in the future. If you're working on your library website, doing it as accessible as possible now, it doesn't take a ton more time now as you're doing it,

but if you ever had to go back and fix it, would be incredibly time-intensive. So I would weigh sort of your projects like that, as you're doing a thing, try to make it as accessible as possible. But recognize that we are doing a balancing act for that and that what is going to serve a specific student at a specific point in time is always going to be unique to them. And we can't foresee every single one of those things ahead of time.

But if we're making our web content compliant with Wicag, we're a good portion of the way there probably in that respect. Yeah. They replaced the doors in my library and I hated them. they went from automatic sliding doors to the energy saving ones but the thing is our our buttons are way off in the fucking opposite direction of the doors so you got to scoot over to the button and scoot back the doors and the doors hate and no one asked the library and I'm like we could have put up a better fight about that yeah this is why you should take your library buildings course if you take if your program offers on which I think You of I is still the only one, but if you go there, take it. I'm mad I didn't.

Yeah, so maybe this will be like a funny closing question for Anaya. So often instruction, I feel, I mean, obviously people are like doing, you know, going into classrooms and stuff, but so often it's just like make lip guides until you die, right? And like instruction has turned into make a fucking lip guide about it, make a lip guide about it. I'm guilty of this too. Make a fucking lip guide about it. And we are all so bad at making lib guides. Like, there's, we're bad at it because no one teaches us. I'm not.

Yeah, I'm not either. Yeah. I'm not bad at it. Listen, every single lib guide created in the world is terrible except the ones that I create, which are amazing. Go on. Exactly. Mine aren't link dumps like that other persons.

Right. So I guess, like, what are some of the biggest, like, from like an accessibility for instruction standpoint? point. What are some of like the biggest mistakes you see people making in lib guides that we like and how to fix them? So one of the things that I would say is, and this is this is huge in live guides, but it's going to be big in any kind of website HTML thing you make, especially if it's in another platform. So this this counts if you're making like interactive things in H5P or in canvas or in blackboard or right. And it also is true of live guides as well is like figure out. what headings are already going to be on the page. And for folks who don't use them a ton,

headings are texts that is coded to be a structure of a page. So usually the title of the page is heading one. In Lib Guides, the title of the page is already going to be heading one, and the box title is heading two. So if you know that and you add a bunch of text to a page, you could keep things in their own little boxes and avoid this entirely, but if you are going to add additional structure to that, page, you want to start at heading three. And so knowing where you're already starting can help

you not make mistakes. I think headings are really important. They're probably not the most accessible place to start. If you're using images that are conveying meaning, they need to be described. A lot of times we'll say use alt text to describe an image. Actually, my favorite way to do that is to just write your text or copy in a way that is going to describe what the image is also describing. So now it's done textually and somebody who can see the image can benefit from it. But it doesn't need all things. Exactly. Yep, same idea.

Yeah, I've got here to remind me to say, try not to make videos if you don't have to. And then I would add to that. And we're so attached to them, but try not to use PDFs if you don't have to. Like, I will, if you want to, nobody wants me to do this. I will come back and talk for an entire episode about why PDFs are terrible. But PDFs can be accessible, but for the most part are not unless you're very, very careful. So if you can just make a word document, that's better. PDFs are pretty terrible.

But yeah, I would think about links. We already talked about having them be descriptive, the right tag, thinking about images and those headings, and that's a really good start. Yeah. And you can turn off headings one and two in lip guides for the rich text editor for everyone so that no one can use heading one and two. And I put that link in the show notes.

Yeah, unless you open up the HTMLL view and then you can add them back in because I'm good at breaking things. I was also taught to, like, put as little tech, like, don't make really text-heavy lib guides. I mean, don't make image-heavy ones, but, like, if you have to start scrolling, you've put too much on the page, right? Because it can be really overwhelming visually, but also that means that's a lot of info, just from, like, a usability standpoint that, like, people just aren't going to scroll,

or if they're on their phone or, like, a screen reader. Like if you if you have to write a fucking book Just to fucking describe something in your lib guide Also if in your head you are yelling at the person who's reading your lip guide like maybe rethink that Like if you feel like this thing is so important I need to make it in all caps and red Like that comes off as though you are yelling at the person who's reading your lip guide Maybe don't do that It also just like looks tacky

Yeah it's terrible it looks terrible I love judging lip guides When I just want to be bitchy and feel like better about myself, I just look at other libraries, lip guides. I'd be like, ah, mine are so much better, even though I haven't made lip guides in like a year because my university, my colleges, I have them. But like, when I did have to make lip guides, they were good. But you have control over your website, which is why lib guides were invented in the first place is because librarians didn't have that control. I don't have a lot of control, but I can just change it when I need to. But it still has to follow the stupid structure of the website.

Yeah, I hate that. Yeah. I wish we had a different... But we're going to be getting maybe subjects plus, which is like the free open source knockoff of lip guides. So I'm excited to play around with that. My IT guys trying to get a set up for me. And I'll be the only one who uses it.

If we do do a PDFs episode, I'm going to yell about why all academic communication is done via PDF. That's bad. That makes you so angry. It's almost impossible. for me to make my repository accessible. Then people are like, oh, well, PDFs, it's like an open format. No, it's not proprietary.

Like, it's, like, Adobe made it. Like, just because other things can read it and it can be kind of easy to convert between the two, like, it's still an Adobe thing. It's like technically, if you look at like the coded, whatever, it's technically a software. PDF is, like, when you are doing, like, tagging things. It's like whatever PDF is technically a software, I think. It's always hard to copy text from it.

If you have just to highlight text and copy it, put it somewhere else from PDF, it's always bullshit. It's bad. Yeah, it's also bullshit when you do it in Word too. Yeah. Yeah. Also, I've never found a good EPUB reader that I like. Oh, so weird thing that can make Lib Guides weirdly inaccessible is if you copy from Word and paste into Lib Guides, it's going to have, it's going to have like peripheral HTML code that comes along with it from the style. But you don't always see it.

So you just have this really messy back end, and it might be fine on the front. But then if you try to make a global change or something, it can make it inaccessible. It can make it really ugly. It's just, you know. That's why there's that like text. When you go into the rich text editor, there's that like paste as plain text that's meant just for if you got to paste something from a Word doc. Yes, use that strips all of the bullshit out. Because Word docs are just XML documents that you don't see the code of.

That's all they are. We're all going to turn into Emacs guys. Yes, join join me. And is it John that's really into Emacs too? I think he said he wasn't. After I said that the Emacs video guy reminded me of it. I'm the Emacs guy. I think he was like, I'm not an Emacs guy.

Email, I do that through my Emacs. Video games through Emacs. You want to make a podcast? You can do that in Emacs. I mean, you probably can. All right. I think we've gone long enough. So this is probably like the end is probably not the best time to put this, but like I feel like I have to mention it gently, as gently as possibly.

But like we are talking in an audio only format, right? And so I noticed that y'all upload to YouTube as well. We do? There's stuff on YouTube. Automatically when it works. There you go. Oh, I didn't know this. So the closest thing that I can find to like a text

version of the podcast is the automatic captions that got put on to YouTube. But Jay's Day in the Life episode, it like didn't work. So if there's like a quick double check of the, that the captions upload, and they're not corrected, but it's something. Yeah, that might have been one of the reasons I set it up to auto publish, but it doesn't work every time. And I don't check it that often because I don't think that the YouTube captions are that good anyway. Yeah, we have issues, but they're actually, they've gotten a lot better. Yeah. Yeah.

And for a couple episodes, because Zincaster now will automatically generate a transcript, but it's like for each individual audio track. Interesting. And then I haven't looked at it yet, but like, because like one of our guests, like, their stipulation for being on is like, we had to do a transcript for the episode, which like for people who know even when Zincaster makes a transcript for you, you still have to edit it. And it is hard and takes a lot of time.

But we did it for that. Justin did it for the, I'm saying we, Justin did it. Yeah. I didn't use Zencasters one. That was garbage. Oh, yeah. I use Sonic's AI. Gotcha.

Yeah. No, I will double check the YouTube and see that at least showing up because those are probably going to get better over time anyway. Unless they break their captions. It wasn't perfect. Like when I was listening to Justin, you were a day in the life. And that's the one where Jay sings, part of an. aria.

And so like, so like the singing was not captured at all and somehow managed to mishear Nixon multiple times. But for the, for most of the words, it was actually decent. Nice. Okay. Well, I'll make sure those getting pushed. I just like talk really quickly. Well, it was great to talk to you both.

Thank you so much for having me on. Thank you for coming on. We should force more of our friends to come on. It's really fun. Good night.