librarypunk - 115 - infoshops

Episode Date: December 11, 2023

We’re infoshopping. What are they? Justin ponders if they can make leather vests for straight people.  Join the Discord: https://discord.gg/QTr6Tn6YMk Media mentioned Street Libraries: Infoshops and Alternative Reading Rooms - Chris Dodge This City Is An Archive: Squatting History and Urban Authority - Samuel Burgum, 2022  https://web.archive.org/web/20190323204714/http://lucyparsons.org/history.php  https://web.archive.org/web/20011116035809/http://burn.ucsd.edu/~mai/texts/disco.html  https://web.archive.org/web/20030223215959/http://burn.ucsd.edu/~mai/infoshops_defined.html  https://www.upress.umn.edu/book-division/books/the-radical-bookstore  https://radar.squat.net/en/groups/category/book-shop-info-shop-library https://slingshotcollective.org/ https://search.worldcat.org/en/title/1235906145 The Radical Bookstore: Counterspace for Social Movements, by Kimberley Kinder West, Jessamyn. "On-the-Fly Reference." American Libraries 33.5 (2002): 54-57. https://americanlibrariesmagazine.org/2021/09/01/library-birdwatching-programming-on-the-fly/    

So it says librarian at the vampire mansion. And it's because in 2022, at one of the, I believe, Philly shows for MCR, Dragway wore a shirt that said, Pull Boy at the Vampire Mansion. And for Christmas that year, my friend made me a shirt that says Librarian at the Vampire Mansion. But I also have a Pull Boy at the Vampire Mansion shirt. So I am both the librarian and the pool boy at the vampire mansion. At the vampire mansion. exclusively.

Yeah. You don't pool boy for anybody else. No. I can take this off now. It's going to get too hot to wear in here. Yeah, because you're wearing it. Ew. That was a dumb joke.

Because I bought an actual motorcycle jacket because it's the only place I had real leather. So they have armor. Oh, nice. Go over the elbow and shoulders. Nice. And back armor for if you get dabbed in the back, I guess. I don't know what that does. It makes it more rigid.

Yeah. And now I have any inner lining comes off, which means I have this weird pseudo vest. You should put like hardcore patches on it. I wanted the traditional big flaps and buttons and things everywhere. I put it on and like tried to move and just went cree. I was like, this would be such a pain in the ass to wear. I would love to get one that's already broken in though. Yeah.

Maybe. But breaking it in yourself, it's like I mean, in the ass. Yeah. I've had mine for, I got it when I was 18. So almost 20 years now. So hopefully that jacket will last you a long time. Such a like big decision because they're one expensive. but it's also like, I don't know anyone who's ever bought one.

Everyone's like, yeah, this is like my dads or my uncles or whatever. I don't know anyone who's actually ever bought a leather jacket. So I'm like, I don't know who to ask for advice. I know. I really want one because I want like something to put patches and shit on. But then I also want something that I could wear all year and have patches and shit on it. So I'm like, do I turn into like a dork with like a black denim vest that I wear over t-shirts? Do I turn into that person?

But that could also be like a leather daddy look, right? Like get like a little like leather vest and like wear it over like a white t-shirt. That'd be cute. The leather moment, Arthur's fed up with me. Is that enough of your shit? Yeah, he's like, he's a little pumpernickel loaf on my desk right now, but he's like looking away. I was vacuuming a lot today. So he's probably mad at me.

My dog tries to fight the vacuum cleaner. Arthur is just, he's just too calm and he doesn't like loud noises. There are bunnies on Instagram that like the vacuum and they put their face in the exhaust and it blows their little lip-lap open. I mean, that is cute. That's cute. Do they make vests for straight people? Because I was looking at lots of vests in all the stores. Because I was at the cowboy store first.

And they're like, yeah, we don't have anything. And then I went to the motorcycle door and there's a bunch of vests. And I was like, you know, this is all pretty gay. It's pretty gay. It's like leather vests. The pants are just like have contraptions going on. Leather chaps, yeah. They weren't.

Yeah, they were just like, they had leather pants behind the jackets on the rack. But they have the ones that, like, loop into your jacket. Yeah. So that way, because it's got like belt loops on the inside of the jacket. So you put the loops through it. And this is like straps and accessories going on. So I need to go to the guys working at the motorcycle shop because it was at a mall. So they were all like 20-something dips chits.

They were talking about like Halo or whatever. Like, it was really fascinating to listen to. Do they sell like hankies? I mean, bandanas. Mm-hmm. Probably. Wink. Mank.

Mascual men who ride motorcycles. Yeah. Honestly, that's my call. If you want a cool jacket, go motorcycle store, apparently. Yeah. Do you want a place at any selection? Was it a Wilson's leather? No, it was like cycle world or something.

And it wasn't like a Harley store. No, absolutely not. Those are fucking losers. Yeah. Harley branded stuff is just like... It's so dorky. It's pretty dorky. Yeah.

My uncle met his wife at like a Harley convention in Vegas. That's pretty cool. Yeah, and so they go there. It seems like a place an uncle would meet a wife. Yeah, so they go there every year for their anniversary. And it's like anytime I'm like backed out in Arizona, which is not often anymore because my mom's no longer on this planet. But when I would go down there, my uncle would like give me a ride on his Harley. It's pretty sick.

I kind of want like I miss the call. Like so everyone in New Hampshire fucking loves having a motorcycle. I don't know. You also don't have to wear a helmet. Go figure. And like literally when I was like touring my previous apartment, my landlord was like, oh yeah. This garage is kind of small. But, like, people usually put their motorcycles in here.

And I was like, oh, does everyone in New Hampshire have a motorcycle? And apparently it's easy to get a motorcycle license there and stuff. And I just never did it when I was a citizen of the state of New Hampshire. And so I miss my fucking, I miss the boat. Can't be cool kid on a motorcycle anymore. And I'd be too afraid to fucking fall off and, like, crack my skull open, though. That's what all the leather's for. They're more expensive than I thought, too.

Mm-hmm. And also the classes are really expensive. Okay. Let's see if I can find something in our libraries real quick. Oh, I remember, I got a good story. All right. We have news. I lost the fucking link immediately.

Okay. Missouri Library will ban Porn Star book after 20 people on waiting list, read it. So St. Charles County, a city county system is going to remove bang like a porn star, sex tips from the pros. After critics claim it is too sexually explicit. So this book came out in 2018, features interviews from gay adult film. stars and covers a range of topics about sex acts and health, including providing oral pleasure, creating your own home sex video, and how to remain sexually healthy according to the book's description. It was previously housed in the library's adult section. The library system only

had one copy of the book before the book's formal challenge, which the library CEO said had not been publicly available for months as it was never returned. So I guess it was out for months, and then they got the complaints. Is it just gay porn stars or all porn stars? Well, I mean, I don't want to argue semantics about someone who's, I think it's people who have sex, men who have sex with men. Yeah, but like gay porn stars. Yeah. Is this like a, is this like a gay sex book or is this a sex book? Oh, oh, okay.

Cool. All right. I just didn't know if they were just mad that gay porn stars were in it or something. Yeah, I mean, they are. Yeah. But anyway, apparently, so I guess this means the book was like technically marked as missing when it got challenged. It's this, it's not clear. That's suspicious.

But anyway, uh, more. copies of the book had to be purchased by the library's review committee to review the initial challenge. So they had to buy this five-year-old gay sex book and they'd write multiple copies in order to review for the committee to review it, which is pretty funny. Hell yeah. I hope they had a good time. There's one more thing. I hope they learned something, thing of two about analingus or something. Oh, yeah, okay. The library CEO added the book was initially purchased five years ago because

it was the only item readily available at the time about sexuality and sexual health for gay men. But it was removed because it had explicit photographs. It seemed unrelated to the text they should have been illustrating. So that was the grounds on which they removed it was it was literally pornography, I suppose. Which, I don't know. I think this is like a good use case for why there should be porn in libraries. I agree. This is a pro porn podcast.

We're coming for the straight comma sutra next, you guys. The straight comma sutra. I'm going to buy it in the straight info shop. It has straight, it has vests for straight guys and this straight commasetra. Nice attempt to the segue. Yeah. I'm segueing back to the discussion on vests for straight guys. All right.

That was the news. Info shops. What are they? No way to find out. Good night. Yeah. So this episode is my idea because guess what? I've got a hyper focus that I hope's not actually a hyperfocus.

It's just this is the new shiny thing for me. And I want everyone to need to know about it because I think it's cool. I feel like the infoshops are things a lot of us actually already do know about, but don't know them as such, or all of the other types of things that they do or can be associated with. So I ask both of you, when I say infosop, do you know what that means? I read the notes. Shane. Okay. I guess that doesn't matter.

I guess I can't do that. I guess I can't do that. I would have thought of reading rooms from the turn of the 20th century and like the Soviet. Like the pre-Soviet Russia is what I would have thought of as like reading rooms that like radicals and factory workers would create because they needed public infrastructure that exists anywhere except like basically the United States is really the only place I had public libraries at the time. Yeah. So other places had read read rooms. Yeah. Sadie, did, has you heard of this term?

I don't think I did. But I'm, I think that if I hadn't like looked at the notes, my brain would probably assume that it was some sort of like Silicon Valley. tech novelty grift probably. Yeah. But knowing it's in the context of libraries, it makes a little more sense. Yeah. So I also hadn't heard this term as such until like the beginning of October when I was at the new member training for the Lucy Parsons Center.

Oh, because they go over. What's an info shop there? And I was like, oh, shit. I learned a new word today. And then I was like, oh, I got to learn more about this. So in the notes, I was cheeky and I went, so what's it? an infoshop. Is it just an anarchist bookstore? Because this is how we get into, like, most people probably, well, maybe not have been to one, but I've probably heard of an institution that is similar.

So a lot of the times, sort of like radical or anarchist bookstores, so think of Red Emma's in Baltimore, if you've been there or heard of it. It's also like a vegan cafe. It's really great. There's wooden shoe in Philadelphia. There's, um, oh, What's the one in Chicago? I even have a always carry a book sweatshirt, a cab from them. You got a friend gave me. I figure what the place is called, though. But a lot of times, like, quote, anarchist or radical bookstores are infoshops, but also things like independent, like, zine libraries, or, like, alternative or community reading rooms, things like this.

So, Info-Shop is a portmanteau of information and shop. Wow, what a complicated term. And often in the United States, they look like bookstores. Mainly, and this is something I, as I was researching for this, that I, like, hooked onto, a lot of times it's like people just want to disseminate information and oftentimes just kind of want to open up their own sort of little independent library, but rent's expensive. So you have to make money in order to have the building that you're in, the space that you're in, unless you squat it, right?

And so it's like, well, what if we sold books instead? But like I said, they can be other types of spaces. They don't necessarily have to be bookstores. They're also organizing spaces. So, for example, the Lucy Parsons Center, we offer the shop as, like, a free meeting space. So organizations will have meetings either open or closed all of the time there, especially like organizations that our members are a part of, right? Like, warm up Boston will have little work.

There were they make little heaters and stuff, stuff like that. So it's like an organizing space. But also like this was the thing that made me go, oh, this is like the whole last reason I wanted to be a librarian was that like it's not just like a bookstore. Info shops are places where it's like if you're new in town, right, and you go to that town's info shop or something and you go like, hey, where are the squats around here? Or what area of town do I need to avoid because all of the cops tend to be in that area of town? Or like what resources are there about safe injection sites?

Like that kind of information, you could go to an info shop and ask it there. And they would probably have that information because that's like it wasn't just about like selling Marx translated in Spanish, Carlos Marks, which is the best thing that's ever happened to me. I'm still not over Carlos Marks, right? That was Portuguese. I thought it was the Portuguese translation that did that. Was it Portuguese? I thought it was Spanish. I remember Frank was saying the Portuguese translations of names are always really wild.

But I thought, I don't know, we have that in our Spanish language section. So I think maybe Frank was just making a comment. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. So this leads me, so like an info shop, instead of just being a, quote, anarchist bookstore, what they really are is that they are a third, space where people can be connected to radical information of all kinds, whether that be history

and theory through books, whether that be like information about like resources and networks, whether that be, hey, I want to get involved in this type of organization. Who do I, what, what's there available to me, right? You know, that kind of space, which is like more than just a bookstore, right? I know it's like I get kind of annoyed at the people that go like oh well public libraries are so great because they do all you know they do XYZ beyond just books it's not just about books like the books are important though all the other stuff is often because social services aren't funded and we are having to do labor that we aren't trained for right this is often what that means um but like here it's like no this is an actual like the books are kind of just the way that the lights get kind of kept on if an infoshop is operating as a bookstore. It could be operating as a different kind of third space. Yeah. Yeah, because like with the LPC, for example, we're a nonprofit. And so any revenue that we get in just goes back into buying more books. We own the building that we're in because some guy who used to volunteer with us when he died left us enough money in his will

to buy the building that we were in. And so we don't have to worry about rent anymore, but we We still have to do like utilities and, you know, keep the lights on and stuff. You know, for example. So when I was doing research for this, like the history of info shops, because like in the United States, at least, like the Lucy Parsons Center in Boston is the oldest one. It's the first one in the United States as such. And it has been running since 1969. It started off as a Maoist bookstore called the Red Bookstore.

Yeah, it used to be a Maoist. And then in like the new left militant sense. And then in the early 90s, was renamed as the Lucy Parsons Center and became a nonprofit. And like we're all sort of like all volunteer run and we're like multi-tendency. Most of us are anarchists. But you know, but like if you want to like trace like the history of info shops,

it's sort of like the 1600s. If you think about radical presses and like seditionists and shit, it's sort of the some of this sort of like spiritual. lineage of Info-Shops in the 1600s. And then in the early 1900s, we also start seeing autonomous social centers. So instead of just these like reading rooms, like Justin was talking about like autonomous social centers are things like that are like cooperatively run or whatever, but they're like outside of like any sort of like they're really big in Italy, apparently. Italy's like where so many self-managed social centers are.

And there are things like free schools, free stores, concert venues, meeting spaces, even libraries can be autonomous social centers. And so like these types of spaces in the early 1900s up through, even still today, are also in the same spirit. You don't start getting the sort of like anarchist bookstore, what we kind of associate until the 80s and 90s, when you get the like DIY punk ethos, people squatting a space and making an infoshop there as like an autonomous social center. And so yeah, most, if you like look at the history, like most of the info shops in United States at least, and even in the UK, start in either the late 80s or the early 90s. And then there's like the Lucy Parsons Center in 1969. Yeah, like globally also, that's sort of where they come from is these squatted social centers. Places like in the UK, the 1 in 12 club was one that is sort of like a was like a squatted space, the 121 center.

And then I've seen Violet actually talk about this one a lot, the 56A InfoShop. All of these in the UK are more like social centery places. Germany, I think they're called InfoLaden or InfoLodian. Laden in Germany. And one that I know about in Japan, because I've got a sticker on my laptop from them, is called the irregular rhythm asylum or the IRA. And I love to think that they did that on purpose. Seriously, I hope they did. That's amazing.

Yeah. So, like, with their history, they're fairly new as such. but their sort of lineage goes back hundreds and hundreds of years, and then it's not until maybe like the last 30 or 40 years that they start looking like the sort of like anarchist bookstore with a bunch of like crust punks, working the, you know, work in the cash register kind of spaces that maybe we might associate now.

Which like I find funny because so often like anarchists, you know, sometimes are of the left, are the ones that are like, not the anarchists don't love theory, I know I do, but like anarchists, I feel like it's the Marxists that are the really intellectual ones

that are always like reading books and shit. And then the anarchists that are like, oh, cool, I'm going to go do a thing now. That's like the gross over generalization stereotype that I don't think is accurate. But the fact that most of these spaces are anarchist and they're like bookstores is, I think, cool. And goes back to what was it like?

the C&T in Spain that had like reading rooms and like reading groups and stuff because the population was largely illiterate and so then they would read you know theory and

to help you know liberate the masses and shit any questions so far I don't want to just like ramble the whole time I think it's probable that a lot of it is just anarchism is one of the dominant tendencies on the left that actually cares about doing radical stuff Like, you do still have, like, I mean, you've always had, like, Orthodox Marxists, Maoists, and Trotskyists and stuff, but I feel like kind of one of the dominant tendencies has been like the IW and that sort of libertarian bent of leftist thought in the U.S.

Yeah. Or like Black Rose, which are anarchists, but are very about having a program, like an organized anarchism, where, you know, that's like a little too Marxist for some Orthodox anarchists, but too anarchists for a lot of Orthodox Marxists. It's kind of, it comes out of the, oh, I forget the word. It's in Spanish. Espefismo, I think. It's like a melitesta thing. I don't know. Anyway, so I think another reason why I find these kind of, this topic interesting, and I think also, like, as librarians thinking about this, and I got this from the book,

The Radical Bookstore, Counterspace for Social Movements by Kimberly Kinder. and thinking about like placemaking, right? And in the book, literally, there's this term, the infrastructure of descent. And I was like, ooh, I like that. Because, like, we talk about, like, infrastructure a lot on here, I think. And, like, placemaking, I thought was interesting because, like, one of the points is sort of like, okay, any place can sell marks. You know, Barnes & Noble will sell Karl Marx, you know. So like what makes a radical bookstore radical?

You know, what is it about these spaces that makes them radical beyond just the books that they're selling, right? And like what is the difference between like a radical bookstore and an indie or independent bookseller? Because the author made like a really valid point that actually those are actually two different things. And like one of the major arguments for like the placemaking. and sort of infrastructure is sort of like, okay, if a radical bookstore is going to be a radical bookstore, like a lot of that is not just what they're selling, because an infoshop might not sell anything, right? But it's sort of thinking about like, how is it run? You know, we can even think about like libraries. How are we running them? You know, who is making decisions? What is

the infrastructure look like? And is that radical, right? If it does sell, stuff? What is it doing with those profits? What else does it offer? Is it just selling books? Or is it also like offering like free zines? Are there workshops that are offered? Is there information? Like can people come and put up posters for events happening? You know, are there posters and buttons and stickers, like, how is the space sort of used beyond just selling books? And, like, that, a lot of that has to do with, like, its role in its community. What is an independent bookstore doing for a community and in that community beyond selling books and participating in print capitalism and, like, entrepreneurship or something? Selling books is good. We like books

sometimes, right? But like, you know, like thinking about like beyond just being a bookstore, what role is this space playing in its community? Is it a community space? Is it a, is it helping, like, make people's lives better or like connect to them to resources? Is it, like, helping, like, organizers make connections and stuff? Like, at the Lucy Parsons Center, we're like, we're a nonprofit, right? We are not a political, party. We, we ourselves aren't like, I mean, a lot of us are in groups and stuff, but it's like, our role is like, this is where like people can be connected to orgs. And it's like, okay, if we're going to be in this area of Boston, we're in Jamaica plane, which as I've said is like a very

largely like Dominican part of Boston. It's like, do we have books in Spanish? Do any of us speak Spanish? You know, what, you know, if so many of the people who come in and volunteer, and stuff are white, like, what are we doing wrong? How are we not serving the actual community that we're in correctly? Like, you know, like, those are sort of, like, when we talk about, like, especially in like the mid-century and stuff about how, like, radical bookstores and, like, disseminating literature and stuff has been a key thing in a lot of, like, social movements and people's and, like, social change and stuff. It's like, I don't think those people were going to Bard's a double, you know, like, this is about, like, I literally got this sentence from a Wikipedia

article, but the common, like, in an info shop or an autonomous social center, it's a place where the commons are created and practiced. And I think that's, like, one of the big differences between just like, maybe like your local indie bookstore or something and, like, a radical space is, like, we are selling books, sure, we are participating in print capitalism, which I want to talk about. but we are also trying to like model the world we're trying to build as well, which is like, yeah, I like that aspect of it. Yeah, the main difference is that there are no commons in the middle of like a city anymore. So everything has to be like owned by a landlord and organization at some point.

So you have to build a commons by sort of maintaining it or owning part of it or it's more metaphorical comments. Right. And it's like, especially if an infoshop is going to operate as a bookstore, you know, like something the radical bookstore book talks about a lot actually is the concept of print capitalism. This was a new concept to me. But basically it's like, because I thought I was just like, oh, selling books. Like I didn't know what it meant. But it's basically like a nation building theory that like through a print. through like the printing press right that is how like common language and discourse gets disseminated

and is proliferated through a capitalist marketplace and that helps shape like like the the state and the nation and the people who live in it right and like if you print your books in a in like a vernacular more people are going to buy it um and so you will make more money that way right but then it's like, yeah, so that's sort of like print capitalism is sort of participating in this like act of nation state shaping through the dissemination, like the capitalist dissemination of like print. And also how in like the capitalist white quote West, we tend to like the printed word has an authority that other types of information do not have. Right. And so if some something's in a book, Emily Knox talked about this, right? If something's in a book, it must be good then, right? It must be true if it got printed in a book, right? And so, like, radical bookstores, you know, anarchist bookshops and everything, like participate in print capitalism. Indie bookstores participate print capitalism, but like indie bookstores are not

radical bookstores. A radical bookstore can be an indie bookstore, right? But, But not all indie bookstores are radical bookstores. One of the, besides the sort of like making and creating and practicing the commons in the space is also that like infoshops and stuff will like leverage and undermine print capitalism because it's like they're often using whatever profits to just like pay the rent of the space to buy more books to sell. If there are paid employees to pay them, we have a part. but otherwise all of us are volunteer, right? A lot of these spaces are volunteer cooperatively run.

And so it's like, like, I saw in like one example that like a person really had just wanted to open up a library, but needed to be able to pay the rent. And so open up a bookstore instead. And that seems to be like a common refrain is like, well, might as well open up a bookstore. But like if you're disseminating radical ideas, which undermine capitalism, it's sort of, And like, you can also like offer information and ideas that are outside of this sort of print capitalism, this sort of like head, idea that the printed word is the valid form of information. Um, you can offer other types of information there as well. And so I feel like like that's sort of the difference that like infoshops and radical bookstores are doing that maybe indie bookstores aren't doing. Indie bookstores are kind of just participating in print capitalism, but aren't Barnes & Noble. And like indie bookstores are good.

We should have indie bookstores. Like indie bookstores are great. Support your local indie bookstore, right? But like that's a sort of difference. Indy bookstores aren't necessarily making a third space that people can just come in and like not have to buy anything to hang out and come in from the cold. You know, have some coffee for free. you know yeah like learning about this idea of print capitalism like as librarians like we also are participating and want to be driving forces of print capitalism i would i would argue even though we aren't like i feel like we don't view ourselves as like a capitalist enterprise because like oh people have to buy our books but it's like we still make choices about what books to buy with the money that we have right like what you know we are participating in the the flow of capital and we make those decisions based off of that right and then we like people

what books people can check out is based on what we buy and so that also helps shape culture via print capitalism yeah i plus it's just the ideological component of it's the dominant ideology and we reinforced that by being part of the state but i was i was kind of confused about the the connection between print capitalism because when i was reading what you gave us it was it sounds kind of like the linguistic theory, but I know it's a nationalized, it's about creating an imagined community. So it's Benedict Anderson imagined communities, I guess, originated the term. And so the way that you just tied it in and it kind of clicked for me was undermining the print dominance of information spreading. But was there another connection? Like, was this in one of the other things

you read, like the Kimberly Kinderbook or something? Yeah, this was in the Kimberly Kinder book. Okay. Yeah, because this person was also reckoning with. like, okay, these are places that sell things that make money. That's capitalism, though. So, which it's not, but like, you know, it's sort of like, okay, how do we reckon with participating in, like, how, you know, sort of like selling things to make money, how does that equal or, you know, how can that exist in an anarchist or radical space? Because, again, the way they were using it made it make it feel like, and it, I, like,

skimmed a lot of the book, but I did see like they bring up this term a lot. Like I did like a control F in the in the ebook and they bring it up quite a bit. So there's probably some nuances that I miss just by virtue of having skimmed a lot of it. But yeah, it was sort of this sort of like, if you have to be a place that sells things, how do you undermine capitalism while doing that? Right. And that print gives ideas more authority. Yeah.

And, like, prank capitalism. Again, like, like, you said, it's largely a linguistic thing, but I would also argue that, like, it's not just a, like, it's about ideas. Yeah, it's about building communities. Ideas spreading, right? And, like, if you can understand each other, then obviously that is part of that. But also, it's just like what ideas are the ones that get disseminated. You know, because of the communities, building identities. Yeah.

This is anarchist literature. This is Maoist literature. This is. Right. capitalist literature. Yeah. Like, we have to make the point all the time at the Lucy Parsons Center that, like, we are a multi-tendency bookshop. We aren't just a Maoist bookstore. And we also, we are not an anarchist bookstore. We have a little anarchism section, but we also have a Marxism, Leninism, Maoism section. And we've got a section

on like philosophy and critical theory. And we've got sections on like various, like, national and geographical movements. We've got a fiction section. people are really loving all the Ursula Le Guin and just keep buying that. Do you have a sex book by gay porn star section? I mean, there is the queer section where you can buy books about like flagging for gay sex. It's the second MLM section. Exactly. Yeah.

I mean, we even have like a kid section. Like one night I went in and there was a hijabi woman and her kid looking at like Palestinian children's books. Like children's books like about like Palestine like kids and stuff. And because she was so happy because she hadn't, you know, seen these in other places. But we carried them. So like would an indie bookstore that wasn't radical sell Palestinian children's books? I don't know if they would right now, you know. So yeah, like there was just like the anarchist book fair that happened.

And like we participated in that. And also like burning books, which is the bookstore. that's used a lot in the book that they were at the anarchist book fair, right? Like PM Press and AK Press were at the anarchist book fair. But yeah, no, we have to stress all the time

that we're like multi-tendency and not just anarchist. We're just vaguely radical, progressive, leftist stuff. But our anarchism section does tend to be the one that gets, that we have to restock the most. You reminded me that there's something

very similar in Seattle. It's called Left Bank Books. That's in Pike Place Market. So I haven't been there in a very long time because I haven't been to Pike Place Market in a very long time. But looking at their website, they look to be pretty similar to an info shop, even though they don't seem to use that term necessarily. But yeah, they work with books to prisoners and do publishing and stuff. So yeah. Yeah, or like community media centers are another kind of similar idea. Like a note or Champana, Champana Urbain. Urbana Champaign's got one. Have you been there, Sadie? I have not for years and years, though.

It's like, it's like right near the big sign that everybody always takes pictures of. And it's like this like tiny little like very narrow upward like bookshop off to one side. So it's really cool. I remember going there and thinking it was super cool. But yeah, I haven't been there in a long time because I haven't been to that area of Seattle in a long time. Yeah. It's like they're also publishing. Yeah.

I was just looking at that. Yeah. pamphlets, looks like a couple books, some collections, the Seattle General Strike. Nice. That was written in 1919. Another thing, too, is the ability to reprint things that are out of print that a normal publisher wouldn't bother because if you're selling it, it's copyright issues. But the ability, like, a bunch of anarchists don't really care. No, they don't.

So there's a lot of, maybe there should be a term for this, or there already is, like, gray publishing. And the same with it, there's like archives that are like, yeah, these are like orphaned works. What do you can do? Copyright's too long. And so you have this like... Or like, we've reached out to the estate or like the copyright, like the press and like it doesn't exist anymore. So... Yeah, no one owns it.

Yeah. I mean, that can technically happen. Yeah. Probably does all time. But yeah. I have a guide in my office for like really complicated copyright questions. That's like a flow chart, basically. It's not a flow chart.

It's like a long article with lots of block sections. And I have it whenever someone's like, is this thing from the 60s still in copyright? I'm like, okay, here's what rules apply to books in the 60s. Can you send that to me? Yeah. Yeah. It's very useful. Yeah.

And so how does this relate to libraries? Because I feel like most of these spaces exist as like, quote, anarchist bookstores or something. So that's not a library. That's a bookstore. It doesn't have to be a bookstore. A lot of these are, do come out of sort of like DIY like zine or, otherwise alternative libraries and reading rooms that are like community sort of sort of outside of a public library system so you know something calling itself like a library it's like a reading room where

you can go in and like read books and stuff and educate yourself or sometimes even like lend them or like zine libraries that exist outside of a like public library or academic library system I think is probably the most obvious thing that in like community libraries, right? But the thing, the thing that scratches the itch for me is thinking about like information seeking and information accessibility, right? Being able to go to a place and ask for information about tenant organizing and then being able to give you that information. That's like what I do as a librarian, right?

Like that's just fucking the reference interview, right? like this is a type of information seeking and a space that is providing that information that like, I don't know, I feel like there's something here that I feel like I'm probably not the first person to point this out. But like, I don't know. Like, this is the thing that like what, when we think of like the reference interview or information seeking, I mean, like people who haven't read studies about information seeking behaviors, I think, feel like information seeking means looking for books, looking for journal articles,

because that's, but it's like, no, information seeking could be like looking up medical information if you are an HIV positive person. Like, information seeking could be all sorts of stuff, right? It's literally just like, there's information that you do not currently have and you need to seek it out. It doesn't have to be like a book or something like published. And so, like, me signage. Yeah. And so it's like being able to go somewhere and ask, you know, where could I get Narcan? No questions asked. Like, that's a type of information seeking. And I, like, we're not, I feel like people who aren't librarians don't maybe don't know. I don't know how common information seeking as like a concept or term is outside of library science. But I feel like it's something we as library science people should share with the world. I think it might help to like think about these spaces through the lens of information seeking and like connection. Yeah. I mean, I guess there's always the question of like mission of the organization too because like the library is there to tell you, you know, I need a map of downtown or whatever.

Hell yeah, grip it and rip it. Come on big dog. Take a sick. Oh, my God. You bought liquid death. I like, I like bubbly water. Leave me alone. Oh, it's a sparkling one.

Yeah. It's a sparkling one. It's got a big-ass dent in it. I don't know what happened there. But yeah, I guess part of the problem could be if you start providing like reference services and you want to be relevant to the community, at what point are you just doing a community service that's different from the agitation and organization and information that you're trying to do at the bookstore. Like at what point are you creating alternative social services like Black Panther Party would do?

Like at what point are you just like, yeah, we're going to help you like fix taillights. Which, you know, lots of like DSA chapters and stuff do stuff like that. Like, yeah, tell light clinic. Black Panthers did cooler stuff where they're like, yeah, we're just going to install like a gorilla fucking free breakfast. No, free breakfast, but traffic lights. They're just like, we're putting a traffic light here because no one's putting a traffic light here and we need one. Like, cool stuff like that. But like at what point are you doing something beyond the scope of what you can sustain is one problem.

Yeah, because it's like I would argue then that like the point of an infosop would not necessarily be with. the InfoShop would be the people doing that, but rather groups that would do that could organize there, maybe have it there, or like it could be collaboration or like connect people to groups that are doing that. Like prison reference services. Yeah, it feels like a hub kind of space to me. Like I said, like at the LPC, like a lot of us are involved in other orgs, but like the LPC in and of itself, like, is not, like, we'll have like movie screenings or we'll do, you know, talks or workshops or stuff. But most of the time it's like us doing something with another organization whose mission it is to do whatever. Like, I feel like that could be a way of getting around quote scope

creep or mission creep as it were. A lot of this just sounds like a lot of the shit the public libraries try. Like, not in a bad way. Like, but yeah, like, for the 2016 election, one of the libraries, uh, from the system I was working at the time organized basically like a giant fair where a bunch of organizations came in and all pitched for volunteers to like a giant overflowing room full of people who are all absolutely terrified after the 2016 election. So like, and it was everything from like the local immigration center to like the local like domestic sexual violence, uh, support line. So like, yeah, Like it sounds like there's a lot of mission overlap, even if it's not necessarily creep, you know?

Yeah, it's like something we just did at the LPC that I remember when I went to my first like new member, when I went to my new member training and then right after it was a general meeting, I remember saying that one of the reasons I was interested in getting involved is that like I was a librarian. And so I have a lot of very relevant skills, one to the operation of the bookstore, but also of like digital privacy and secure. stuff and I, you know, knew a lot about, like, like, running workshops and like I knew about copyright and stuff. And also I knew some very basic book binding. And everyone in that room turned their head to look at me. You know book binding? And I was like, not very well, but a little bit. Because what they were working on was this really cool book that we keep in this store called Liberation Soup, which is a directory of radical organizations that agreed to be in the book. And we don't have it online, where you can come in to the store. And if you go, like, oh, hey, what are some,

like, resources for, like, free food around here? Like, I'm in a bad way or something. It's like, oh, here's info on food, not bombs. And here's the flyer that they gave us. There's, like, a thing, the group Smokeworks, which helps through, like, safe injection, but also, like, other types of, like, drug use. There's, like, some, like, radical student organizations in there, like, things that maybe a public library might get in trouble for endorsing we have in there. We have like the socialist rifle association like info in there and like John Brown Gun Club. Like those kinds of folks. Like do you need security for your protest? Don't don't use the fucking cops. Call these folks instead. Like, you know, like we have that kind of information in there. So it's like we could do like infoshops and

radical spaces can like, where there is that overlap, we can go farther where maybe people at the public library might want to go that far, but can't because of bureaucracy and red tape and library boards and shit like that. But yeah, there is a lot of overlap. But they could recommend that you go to the info shop and seek that information out there. Right. So like sort of leads me to like action oriented like what the hell okay what do we do with this information like that's one thing if you are a librarian it is good of you to know that these spaces exist in your community if they do and if so like what services do those spaces offer where you could recommend patrons to them should they be asking for that kind of thing right that's literally

what your job is you know like that's not you I mean, that's not you like pushing an agenda or anything. It's just if a patron is asking for a kind of resource, and you know that that resource is either there or could be connected through that space, then that is literally your job to direct them there, right? So it's like, that's a, like, just like knowing how to use search and certain databases or directories or whatever, like knowing what infoshops are in your area. and why you might connect patrons to them

is like a good thing for you to do. And also to like maybe take inspiration from infoshops if there's not one in your area. Like could you do these kinds of services at your library of like the like Sadie like you mentioned? Like is that something you could do at your library? You know, could you work with these types of organizations if there's not an info shop in your area

to help connect people to information. What's your meeting room policy? we also have meeting rooms for free. Who's allowed to use them? Don't let Nazis use them. Don't, don't do that. That's step one, I think. You're allowed to, you're allowed to not let Nazis use your meeting rooms. I fucking promise. I promise you, you're allowed not to. Seattle Public, are you listening? Oh, yeah, no, I did a library journal gave me money again and I got to read them for filth because I give them my slides ahead of time, but I don't put me criticizing them in the slides, and then I say it anyway, and then and they still send me money, and I'm trans. So fuck you, library journal. Thanks for the money. Assholes. Other action-oriented things is obviously,

volunteer if you've got the time at these spaces, if they are volunteer run and accept volunteers, right? Sometimes it'll be more of a, no, they have paid employees. But sometimes it's just like volunteers. And like, I know at the LPC, it's sort of like as little or as much as you want. of like volunteering. So just because I'm crazy and have no social life doesn't mean that you volunteering at your local space has to look like the way that I'm volunteering. But it's like I went there going, okay, I have these skills. Are these skills useful to you? I offer them to you. I will provide these

services. I will teach people y'all how to do it too so that these skills are not just things that I have. but like, you know, like, we're going to be doing an inventory audit. And I was like, oh, I'm literally doing an inventory in my library right now. Like, this is what this can kind of look like. Here's information from archivists on like how to properly clean books and bookstacks and stuff, since we're going to be cleaning while we do this too. Like, you know, that kind of information. It's like I go there with the skills that I have and I sort of go, cool.

How can I help? I don't go, I would like to do this. these things here, but would you like me to do anything here is sort of how I phrased it? Like, I don't want this to turn into me saying, go white savior at your local anarchist bookstore, show up, and being like, hi, like, being a cringe lib asshole. Like, don't do that. But, like, you know, library workers have skills that other spheres don't. Like even if like, like, say, you work in IT, but like you've worked the desk before and even in IT in libraries.

Like, you know what goes on in like patron interactions. Like, that's a unique sphere the way that like libraries and patrons, like that's a unique thing. And the skills to operate that is unique. And so like I feel like we should offer that other places if we can't. And even if those skills of yours aren't one of the. like still volunteer if you want to. You can still hang out. You can learn something new too.

You can learn something new too. I have learned so many things. I, yeah, like I have learned so much about so many things and so little time that it's hard to believe that I only started volunteering there at the beginning of October. I was like, wait, no, it's been longer. And all of the people are like, no, you've been here longer, right? And I was like, no. They go, fuck, you just jumped in.

I was like, yeah. because I'm crazy. Maybe I'm manic right now. Who knows? But yeah, another thing that, like, came up while I was, like, researching, and I know this is such a retro, like, 90s, maybe early aughts idea, but maybe we should bring it fucking back is, like, doing roaming reference at InfoShops. I know that sounds so cringe and dorky.

But, like, again, like, we have skills. and like how cool would it be if there was like at your local info shop if maybe like once a week there was someone there who you could go to to like not just ask like oh hey where where's a squat I can stay in but like other types of like questions that we might call like ready reference or like reference questions and like just hang out like and without having to go to a library because what if it's about like I don't know illegal shit or something you know You know, like, what if it's something you wouldn't want to tell your friendly neighborhood public librarian at the task? You know, I feel like, like, I saw an article about someone who used to provide roaming reference at Burning Man.

And I was like, you know what? That's pretty incredible. It's not a bad idea. Points were made. Your roaming reference in a library is kind of pointless. Yeah. I don't necessarily think you roam outside the library. It's necessarily.

as cool. Yeah. Yeah. Because I know such a retro idea in the roaming reference kind of, like if you say it now, it's like, okay, what library science, what library school teacher has updated their syllabus in like 15 years, right? Or more. But I don't know. Maybe it's a, maybe like community roaming reference is a thing we should start doing. I don't know. I don't know. That's probably already a thing. And I'm, that's, and I just, yeah, that's probably already a thing. But still, I think it's a good idea. Is this anything? Is this anything? And then also like, you know, we offer workshops at libraries all the time. And sometimes they're not attended well. But like we could offer those same or similar workshops at infosops if even if we aren't volunteering there. I know like, again, at the LPC, it's like people can just like be like, hey, we would like to

offer this thing here. Could we do that? And we go like, sure. And then it happens. So it's like, ask if like you could maybe offer work. workshops on if you are someone who knows about like digital privacy, if you've done some like library freedom project stuff, like offer like you don't have to teach people how to go full Edward Snowden, but like you could offer like basics. Here's how to get yourself started. And so

people aren't so intimidated in getting started in digital security and privacy. Or like workshops on like making hand stitching zines if you know how to do bookbinding. Like bookbinding in general, offer bookbinding workshops. Wouldn't that be cool? right? Offer workshops and how to like search the web effectively, especially now with how search engines are all fucking broken. A lot of people like any library skills if they go to college or whatever, if they've learned skills there, those aren't necessarily applicable to the rest of the internet sometimes. It depends on who the librarian was, I guess. But like, I don't know. I feel like there's a lot that like, where it's like if we as people who are librarians or library workers that like as a ways to get more involved in our communities and in specifically and also just like radical movements in general, if we're not already, you know, deep in them, this could be a good way to do it is like offer our skills and our expertise and our knowledge outside of the library, you know?

Thank you for coming to my TED talk. Oh, because I muted myself in Zencastor, my drops didn't play. You had drops. Well, just now. I'm transgender. That is also true, Joe Biden. I am also transgender. Tramgender.

Tramgender. Trangender. Oh, there is a, I got a zine called Two Trans, Two Furious. Incredible. And it's all like essays about being trans and the Fast and Furious franchise of Films. and the cover is like animorphs, but it's Dominic turning into a car. I feel like I need to do a show and sell with the class.

I think I posted it in the Discord. Oh, fuck, I hit my kneecap. No, hell that hurt. See? That is some of the best and worst art I have ever seen. Yeah, yeah. This is what the back looks like. It looks like a Tumblr blog.

It has Hot Gayo. in it, apparently. Yeah, I feel like, I thought I saw that, like, Gretchen Pelker Martin was one of the editors for this. Maddie Luchanski did the cover art, published by Rapid Onset Gender Distro. Good distro name. So everyone go buy this.

Yeah, I never heard a roving reference outside of the library before. The only thing I can find is, like, a book from 2014, where they were talking about putting academic librarians in other buildings on campus. But the Burning Man thing is cool. Yeah, like, did I put that article? I downloaded that article for sure. I'll find the citation because it's like, that's a cool idea of just like, that's a skill I have. Does my, would that skill be useful in helping the community that I'm in?

You know, I wonder if the Black Panthers, like, worked if, like, there were any librarians that were Panthers and, like, did cool shit. That'd be cool. Liberians showing up all over the place. Yeah. If you know of a Black Panther librarian. Call in, by which we mean put it in the Discord, which we enjoyed the Discord first, or email us or something. All right. Are we good to wrap up? Yeah, that was all I had. Thank you for letting me ramble. This was very fun.

Yeah, and we've got a lot of stuff in the notes. So take a look and find out if you've got a local info shop. And I'll find that Burning Man article. All right. Good night.