librarypunk - 122 - Dr. Chuck Tingle

Episode Date: February 17, 2024

This week we’re talking to the world’s greatest author, what else is there to say?  Pre-order Bury Your Gays: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250874658/buryyourgays Chuck’s Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/chucktingle Media mentioned TLA post by Chuck: https://www.tumblr.com/drchucktingle/739065274126499840/the-texas-library-association-tells-chuck-tingle 

Okay, let's go. I'm Justin, I'm a Skalkanlcom library, and my pronouns are he and they. I'm Sadie. I work IT at a public library, and my pronouns are they them? I'm Jay. I'm a music library director, and my pronouns are he, him? And now, Library Punk is proud to introduce the top bookeroo with a five-star review. The man who's shot makes the world hot. Taekwanda Grandmaster and the world's greatest author, Dr. Chuck Tingle. Heck yeah.

Incredible. What an introduction. True honored by that introduction. Wow, what a trick that was. We've been so hype for you to come on, so. Yeah. It was for us. Very fine.

No, I felt like, you know, when I do my booktrikes, that was. tours. I think Buclews are used to authors being a maybe quiet and reserved, though. I think being an author, being a novelist is a pretty solitary, quiet activity. And book findings can sometimes have that ride, but I come puffing out of the sacks and do a couple of laps, generally. So I think playing that song is pretty fitting for my live introductions as well. Yeah, I listen to as prep, I listened to all of my friend Chuck. Wow. We did a lot of episodes.

Yeah, about like 25. I just had it running to catch up on all my tingle lore, tingleverse lore. But no, we're just super excited. I guess we have to explain. Well, actually, just a few episodes ago, we said, we talked about your story with the Texas Library Association. And I said, well, I guess I have to talk about it. And then we say, you know, there is still an open invitation for Dr. Chuck Tingle to come on the podcast. So I'm glad that we made it happen.

Yeah. I guess. I mean, this is an honor to be here. Also, I think it's been a little bit. Things happen fast in the Tingleverse. You know, that whole thing happened to, gosh, I mean, part of this year, it's only been a little over a month. And it seems like being history now. And this is the first time that I have trod anywhere kind of specifically talking about it.

I know we're going to talk about all kinds of stuff. But since you are in Texas and this is a librarian show, you know, we can get it and we get into it. Yeah, absolutely. You've done a whole post on the specifics of what happened. And I have my own theories about why it happened. I don't know if that's too inside baseball for the listener. but I am very curious. I will say, well, who we're going to say is a listener?

Is it other librarians listening? I mean, is it all kinds of book lovers? What are, what would you say your listeners are? Gay children. Like gay children, we mean librarians and other types of library workers. We have a lot of people who are in library school, so people who are going to be librarians, people who are thinking about becoming librarians. That's great.

That's perfect. means it's not really inside baseball. That means we can talk about library theory and the audience will go wild. Oh, yeah. They'll love it. Oh, yeah. So what? I don't know if it is it too, is it too deep to ask? What, what do you think happened? I don't know. Should I, should I give a quick rundown? Sure. Go ahead. Yeah, just to set the stage. I tend to ramble, but I'm going to try to keep this. So do we. This is going to be a summary. like no other, I was invited to be a, you know, it was a guest at the Texas Library Association big conference and kind of a main guest. I don't know how you quantify it, but I was going to speak at the big, big dinner. And there were some back and forths with my publisher where they, you know, they invited. And then a few months later said, well, Chuck can't wear his mask.

And my publisher said, that's absurd. He has only appeared anywhere. with his mistake and why did you invade him if you didn't want the mask? And then they said, well, he can trot around with his mask, but not in the main conference. And then the publisher said, well, then the point of the mask is one to protect privacy. I mean, I'm pretty political. And the amount of death threats that I did, I mean, pretty much one a week, maybe more. And so there's that. But second of all, it is also, you know, part of my expression as a pro ron the spectrum. I have learned over time as well, but honestly, this is in a very interestingly part of my gender expression as well. And so there's just a lot of things that I don't necessarily

think libraries should be policing about the way that the Bucrose choose to express themselves in a sincere and important way. And, you know, the publisher actually did write back, The Texas Library Association said, well, we rescind our invitation. Chuck is no longer invited. And when that happened, my publisher did send back a thing that said, you know, there is an important reason that Chuck wears this. I don't know what the exact words are, but they said, you know, this is not some sort of a gag or a bit.

Chuck needs this to appear. This is an aid for him, to which they said, we don't really care. And then I made my post. So that's pretty much the rundown of what happened. And I was a bang from the conference. You know, technically, I guess I could go, I would say if I want to present myself in a way that feels comfortable and physically express my neurodivergence and gender, I am not allowed. So that's where to. Yeah.

And I remember that they eventually, they did rescind. They rescind their, yes, they rescind. After I posted this, there was a big pushback. I think a lot of Buckroos were pretty upset. And then they said, oh, oops, Chuck, you can come again. And honestly, you know, I guess I appreciate the bucklers trying to make some sort of effort, although the apology was a little lackluster, I would say. But I also decided, you know, as someone with specific needs to present myself, I cannot imagine them actually taking care of me and being a sick environment for me if they won't even do the bare minimum of just kind of letting me exist in my own skin.

You know, there are things, especially with my way on autism spectrum of them. I actually honestly just, I think even neurotypical buds probably get this of I'm overwhelmed by. crowds and sometimes I just got to get out of there. I only travel with my buckaroo who can kind of help me get away from things and helps me along. So I always have a guide and I can't imagine them accommodating that. So I just thought I don't really feel safe with these buckaroos. That's actually a huge discussion around the library conferences, especially since the pandemic when a lot of them did move online for a little bit. A lot of librarians who do a lot of disability advocacy started talking about, wait, we've been able to make them virtual this entire time, like,

or hybrid this entire time. Why haven't we been doing that? Because like, I love going to an in-person conference. I love being around a lot of people. I love that kind of thing. But I understand that like not everybody does, and especially in librarianship, it tends to attract a certain kind of person sometimes, right? Oh, yes, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, I think, is it, Jess Schaumburg is one of, and we've, we've had them on the podcast before. They've talked a lot about, like, the sort of, like, library conferences, having the ability to be hybrid or completely virtual, like, is an accessibility issue. It's a disability issue. Like, accommodating the fact that people had these different needs with how they show up in public or interact with other people is important. Yeah, well, I'm glad that conversation's happening. I'm, I was, you know, the whole thing was pretty shocking to me. just because it seems, you know, maybe I'm in my own little bubble. It just seems so obvious that if someone has this thing they need to physically present, that, you know, a library of all places would be accommodating.

I think, you know, I have an interesting relationship with, like, autism, because my whole life, it has kind of only been a positive thing for me. I really like it. I think it's very cool. Autistic, actually, and it's been that way ever since how it's diagnosed. I have never seen it as a disability. But I also recognize that it kind of needs to be because it is a spectrum and that there are some buckaroos with this diagnosis who do need help, who need additional help.

And so in this conversation, you know, it made me uncomfortable that I had to actually say what this mask is, is that technically speaking, this is a disability aid. It even makes me uncomfortable saying it because, like I said, I just don't, I don't, when I talk about my autism, that is not the focus. It's just kind of something that needs to be addressed because of your government funding for program of taking care of what you're who are functioning in a different way than I am and stuff. So to be thrust into this situation where I have to have that conversation about my own with no divergence very publicly because the Texas Library Association, I don't really know why,

but because they had a problem with my disability. I think is really sad and kind of the most insidious part of all this is that when you gatekeep like that, when you do decontent like that. Whatever this was, you're not just kind of not allowing someone to go to your preference. It's not just one thing. It's putting all of the effort and all of the work that has to be done onto this Baccaroo, in this case, myself, but didn't really want to have this conversation and to talk about this as a disability aid. I think ultimately it's a good thing because it is a good conversation to have.

But, you know, I think it would have been better if I could have that. conversation in my own time, I guess. Yeah. And I'm really glad that you've come on to talk about it because this will be recorded for, you know, we do have a lot of people who can help run these conferences, people who aren't just at the student level, but, you know, I've helped run conferences. And, you know, so that they can realize that they need to front-load this labor and not dump it on the attendees, which was my theory because there's a lot going on with book bands right now and, you know, certain state agencies have to, like, leave the American Library Association. And there was some like, oh, is this an agenda against Chuck?

And my theory is actually, it was just incompetence by the conference leaders was they just didn't realize, oh, we have to work to make something accessible for people. And we're going to invite someone and not even think for one second about what they need. As an invited guest, it's such a, like, it's so unbelievably rude is the thing about this. Well, let me, so I've obviously thought about this a lot. I'm not going to say push back on your theory, but here's where the discussion is that that is well. That's kind of generally what I would first go to. But the thing that's confusing to me is that it's not that it's a lot of work for the person who is banned and has to kind of talk about their autism and all this stuff.

What they were asked to do is so bare minimum no furt that I feel like in my mind when I thought of the theory that you just brought up, it falls apart for me because I think what did they actually have to do other than or into someone's appearance, I guess? I mean, there's no additional stuff. I have someone that comes with me if I need help with anything. So I don't know. That's where I get stuck. No, totally. The thing is, I have never been involved with this conference or the Texas Library Association. I'm not from Texas originally. I've only lived here five years.

And I just, the state level stuff wasn't really interesting for me. So I don't really get involved with that particular conference. So I couldn't tell you who in particular was running it. But it just, the banality of just like, oh, we had this rule, right? There's this rule about masks, right? and then just putting it out there so callously. Well, but it's interesting. They didn't even say there was a rule.

They just said we, and they didn't say that someone was uncomfortable. They said they were worried that someone might be uncomfortable with the way that I look. So I just, it is kind of mind blowing. You know, the really obvious one is to say, oh, Well, you know, they're just being discriminatory. It's run by a bunch of being conservatives or something. But, you know, if you look at the other people invited, my bud, T.J. Plain was invited, you know, queer. I think George Takai is one of the Buccane's one of the guests.

And in the years, they had had, you know, drag queens and all kinds of stuff. Now, I know that there's some politics with the ALA. maybe leadership changes or something like that. But, you know, that seems kind of strange to me too. What I came to and what I wrote was almost a left side thing. And it's interesting. This is a great podcast for this. Since, you know, we're kind of talk about library politics and all this stuff.

I think the most intricate one, but the one that actually I can't, it doesn't have any obvious fold open it, is not the far right idea. it is the far-left idea that I, and I encounter this sometimes, where because my presentation is so unusual, because what I write is, and I use unusual, not disparaging, just literally uncommon, that sometimes very far left, bookers who have never heard of me or have heard of me from 10 years ago, think that I am some kind of a, you know, you know, ironic message board, like 4-chan thing that is homophobic or like a parody. I don't really know entirely, but every once in a while there will be someone kind of very

heroically making some posting, you know, Chuck Tingles, a bad guy. He writes about being a buckaroos, pounding dinosaurs, and big feet, and obviously making for the queer people. And obviously, not really queer, not really neurodivergent. That kind of thing, ironically, just seeing someone and kind of gatekeeping them and saying, that is the wrong way to be queer, that is the wrong way to be artistic. Isn't itself about the most homophobic and bigoted thing these, quote, left-wing people could do? But it does happen. And when I thought about it with this conference, I thought, gosh, I wonder if that is it because it is a very, you know, like I said, they have a lot of clear bucklers. They have kind of, you know, have had drag queens in the past.

I thought, what if someone booked Chuck and then someone high up kind of looked at my catalog and thought, oh, this is obviously a joke. That was maybe my theory. And I don't know if it's any more likely than the other ones, but it's the one theory that I kind of can't poke a hole in. And, you know. Yeah. And it relates a lot to, like, I'm glad you brought up the idea of comfort and people being uncomfortable, right? Because I feel like this is also another thing in a lot of spaces, but in libraries, like the idea of like what should be allowed in a library based on what makes certain groups of people uncomfortable. Like, a lot of people get angry about homeless buckaroos using public libraries because people get uncomfortable around homeless people. And it's like, you're going to be uncomfortable. when you are out in public sometimes. And I feel like people are having a hard time grasping that. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Discomfort is not automatically a bad thing or a harm or anything against people. Yeah. Right. I mean, libraries are kind of, and why they're so important to me is it is kind of a last public meeting space, you know, funded by the public.

Like, it's like this revere, it's so interesting that of all the kind of public services and things that, you know, tax, tax dollars go to, even more than like parks, like sitting parks and things. But the library is such a like a town hall where they say, okay, we're going to have all these voices. Anyone can come here. And we are going to be a place of ideas is such a beautiful thing. And I think emotionally why maybe the. the Texas Library Association thing affected me more than I expected was because I thought, wow, this felt like the last, last thing, you know, it felt like these are the Buckewis who are standing up for that space. And then to see it crumble like that was pretty devastating.

I obviously, I don't think this is all libraries. It's just some particular buccaroos in the Texas Library Association. It is interesting. Yeah, it's it's very disappointing, and I'm very sad that it happened, and I wish I had been at least able to voice my displeasure directly to the people involved if I had, it would have been nice to yell. Get myself thrown off of the organizing committee or something. Well, I, you know, I'm actually kind of curious because, you know, there are buckaroos that know what happened. And behind the scenes, I'm actually kind of surprise that no one has hosted. something. Maybe someday, but you know, these are large organizations, you know, these are, and not everyone's going to agree. So I think the one thing that has been kind of surprising is that

there has not been any more information. Especially with how sparse that apology was like, you say that it was lackluster and I'm just like that not even, I would go lower than lackluster if I could think of the word for it because it just wasn't really anything at all. Yeah, I think that Speaking, I think calling it apology is generous. I think technically speaking, I'm not even sure if it was an apology so much. But then, you know, trying to take the high ground trot here. I am curious, though, for this event, I mean, did you already have planned out what you were going to talk about? You know, I think so that seemed like more of a Q&A.

So, no, I did, I did not. In fact, I generally kind of don't like to, I don't like to know what questions are going to be. I know, you know, most podcasts or at least most professional ones, like yourselves, you know, will send kind of the question list or things like that. I don't ever read them intentionally. I just, I kind of don't like to know. Not to do most of our guests. It's fine.

Yes. Yeah. It's for us more than anybody else. Yeah. Sometimes I feel bad because I know effort goes into them, but I do genuinely think my answers will be better if I don't know. I also think it's very kind of you. Speaking of accessibility, I think that there are some Buccaroos who very much appreciate and kind of want to plan. So it's a good thing to do, but it's just kind of just the opposite of the way my brain works.

I like to just let her rip. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that is one of the reasons. It's also to keep us on track because all of us have ADD. So if there wasn't like a bullet point list, it would be really hard to get through everything we wanted to. It's hard even sometimes just to frame ourselves in. It's always fun to like be watching the notes while the podcast is happening because Justin will like move things around and it raised things based on what we've talked about. Well, what note are we at?

One. Well, yeah. Yeah. Like start to get hurt you. No, no, no, no. Okay, we're on the two now. We're on the second bullet point. Okay, we're good.

We're good. You've done these library conferences before, right? What can they do better? I mean, we already talked about the load on putting the load on to someone else. But, you know, I mean, is planning too much in a head? Is that a problem? Is it like too rude? Is it like, do you need this?

Do you need that? Does that get patronizing at a point? I have actually not done a library conference before. So I don't know if I can't. I do, I mean, I love book tour stuff. And so I, you know, have done a lot of them kind of bookstore. I do presentations. I've done a lot of, I mean, I've got to did a panel at Comic Con for probably the last thing,

seven years. So I'm in San Diego Comic Con every year and we've done a bunch of conventions. But I have not. done a library association conference, you know, without saying too much after Texas Library Association, you know, did what they did, I think that I might appear at possibly some other state conferences this year. Maybe. Wink, wink, but that's kind of getting worked out. But no, I have actually, I wish I could answer that better, but I don't, I don't really know. I'm excited to learn. Yeah. Well, we'll just have to bring you back on once you've done your tour of all 50

Library Association, or 49. Yes. Yeah, 49. Yes, I'm not loud at one. Band for life. When you started doing like your book tour stuff, I mean, did you, was there anything you learned that you needed while you were doing book tour talks after you started writing?

Interesting. I think what I learned was that, um, I am a very different, I had a very different person than most authors. Like I kind of said at the beginning, there is a book, book tour is generally a pretty quiet affair. And, you know, when I'm on tour, it's a show. It's a pretty big show.

We got a projector and everyone's running around. I kind of get offstage, flatten like Elvis Presley under the hot glare lights. So, you know, it's just kind of a whole, It's a whole different thing, and I knew that going in, but I think I definitely learned, especially on the last book tour, doing Q&As, where I would have a bud from the city kind of company with your chat. And that's always wonderful.

I just love that part of it. I do love a deep discussion. But when I started then running around doing laps and all that to toss in the microphone, I always think my Q&A partners must be thinking, oh, my. My gosh, what did I sign up for? I wish authors would like that. My least favorite part of most library conferences I've been to is when they get some celebrity or author as the keynote. And you get a bingo card out because they say the same thing every time,

which is how much their public libraries a kid was so important to them. And they wouldn't be the author they were today without it. It's like I could do it in my sleep now. It's like, no, you're actually interesting. Yeah, well, you know, I guess we'll never. know what I would say to the Texas Library. So, I like to get out in the slides and

I play some games generally. It is really a fun time. I think, honestly, I think because of the styles, this next bookturb will probably do more off-site things because it was a little too big for bookstores. So, you know, I think it'll end up being more in theaters, which is even more like a dang show, which in itself, even talking.

about this, you know, and I'm not the biggest author ever. I'm not being James Patterson, but interestingly, Buckaroos are trying to really like to trot out and see me in person, which I think is really, it's just really fun. I get so much energy. It's like, I think every day and night, I'm crying tears of joy by the end. It's very ambitious. Yeah, no, I feel the same way of, you know, like, we just went to a friend's first live show for their podcast, and it was a wild. time. You know, it was done in a bar theater thing and we all had fun and we went up for drinks afterwards and it was, you know, just a great fun time. I don't understand why more things can't just be allowed to be fun. They have to. Even other podcasts, I feel like there are some

where it was clearly a conversation that happened and then they went back and re-edited their questions in so they sound more formal. And I was like, why would you do that? Why wouldn't you just enjoy the conversation and have fun? We're here to prove. love and have fun. That's right. You know, let's, let's be, let's think trot.

I actually, so, you know, my appearance is also, I never do live readings too, which is a, I'm kind of another chicken show. So that makes the energy up too,

because if we're doing kind of games and discussion, the side shows, instead of live readings, you know, I don't know how awkwards do. I guess that's what the rest of, but that seems like a tall order to hold an audience just by reading.

reading a book. But, you know, Buccourers like it. It's been that way, been that way for decades. But, yes, that's not really good time. Yeah. Not going to go full Charles Dickens making your living off of live readings. No, I know. Maybe more, maybe more than Bob Barker making my living off of a live game show host. Nice. I would watch it. Yeah. Same. All right. We're starting a petition. Chuck Dingle host Jeopardy. Yeah. Bring me to your dang libraries. A game. I'm going to blow the roof off of that place. Yes.

Heck yeah. The moment I get control over the budget. I'm going to have to get involved more with the Massachusetts Library Association just so I can make this happen. Do it. Or the Music Library Association, since I'm in that one. Oh, you'd be a hit at the Music Library Association conference. Heck yeah. Oh, yeah.

Heck yeah. I am curious because Sadie and Jay both have written Erotica, and I wanted to know what made you start. and did you have a moment where it was like, all right, this just needs to get out there? Yes. So I think, you know, erotica specifically, I do tend to like art that dabbles in the taboos. That's probably why I like horror is, you know, you have the tab violence and then violation. And then erotica is just the taboo of sex and sexuality. So artistically, I've always found those interesting.

I think kind of exploring sexuality has always been interest of mine with art and kind of, I think, is coupled with my artistic philosophy that, you know, I just like art that pushes the boundaries of the format. A book that is more than just the text on the book, a thong that is more than just the time that you listen to it. So I'm generally interested in what's outside the formal piece and how that art connects to it. It's sort of a Dadaist philosophy, although that, funny enough, very punk, also kind of cynical. And I don't think there's anything cynical what I do. But I think my interest in all of that philosophically really may be interested in sexual art because there is all this baggage that comes along with it outside of the art that is very interesting to play with. I remember, you know, being a young buckaroo and kind of learning it out or seeing the Supreme Court obscenity cases.

I think it was Larry Flint, actually, and Hustler, but basically just the idea of the Supreme Court saying, well, pornography, is defined by something that has no artistic value. And the second that I heard that, I realized, oh, then pornography just doesn't exist because there is literally nothing with no artistic value. That is, that's absurd. That just can't happen. Everything, every creation has some artistic value. When the Supreme Court can't just say, well, sorry, there's no art there. And so I remember getting really riled up about that and thinking, gosh, that's so interesting and kind of wanting to kind of explore sexuality and art and stuff because of that very, very early on in life and thinking that was so interesting. So I think it probably comes from there in some ways as well.

Yeah, it's fascinating. I've also heard you talk about the holistic nature of how you perceive art, you know, living your life as well. Yes. Yes. I mean, I think it is the interaction of the artist and the audience. I think, you know, it's interesting how controversial this. It's been debated forever about can you separate the art from the artist? And it is actually my belief that that's not possible to do by simply because I don't think that art end with the piece as we see it. So no matter what, you know, your view of a painting, painting is going to be framed, not just by the physical frame, but by what you know about the

artist. Not only that, what you don't know about the artist, I think a lot of the times the argument against us, Bucker said, well, what about a painting that I have known? I just, I've seen it for the first time. I believe that not knowing anything of artists also informs it. So it is really literally impossible. And I also think that that's okay. You know, it's up to each Buckery. to decide how much of that they are going to participate on. What's a bridge too far for them? What's a bridge not? But just pretending that you can do the separation,

I think what it does is it makes it so the bucking is that can then feel absolved, as if they are now not responsible for their actions in participating in these things, when in reality, I think that we kind of need to own it and also say that sometimes, Sometimes it's okay to read a book by someone who has done bad things. It's all up to the person reading it and how much and what it was. I mean, the great example for me is, you know, I love the Beatles. I listen to them all the time. I don't know if a lot of Buccarus know this, John Lennon, not a very good Baccaroo.

You know, and I think about that and I think, well, after Wade, he's not alive. He also actually addressed the fact that he was not a good buckery, and most of his career is about him trying to change that. But without anyone calling on it, he kind of did it himself. There's all these things I can go through. I can think about, say, J.K. Rowling and think, I don't like what she has to say. All these different things. I weigh it. She's still alive.

I'm not going to buy any sort of Harry Potter books or whatever. But that's a choice that I am going to make, and other buckeries can make virtual. of whether they want to, you know, have me a third thing because I don't buy, you know, I don't buy J.K. Rolling books, but I still buy Beatles records, you know. If someone has a problem with that, that's fine, too. The whole point is that pretending that we are in some sort of a vacuum where art and the reality of whom made it are fundamentally disconnected, the only thing that does is let's, gives people an excuse so they can feel better about participating with these things when what I do is when I listen to a Beatles record, I know that my opinion of that song

is going to be colored by what I know about John Lennon. I'm not going to say that's going to make it better or worse. It's going to make it different. And to pretend it won't is not really something that I'm interested. Sorry, that was probably the most rambling answer. You've ever gone on this thing, pod. I apologize. It's really not. I went on for that when I apologize. No, it was, it was great. And, like, I'm so glad that you also brought up, like, the obscenity cases and them arguing that, like, well, pornography doesn't have artistic merit because, and this kind of also relates to the, like, when do you decide to read or something? And, like, there's a discussion right now in libraries about, like, whether or not particularly public library should have, quote, pornography in them because a lot of, yeah, because a lot of conservatives are like, well, we have to ban these books about queer people because that's pornography, because it talks about, and then they just can't. can't say anymore. It's just, oh, it's porn because we say it is. And then you get a lot of librarians who think they're helping by going, libraries don't have porn. Books that talk about queer sex aren't porn and all that. And I'm like, no, that's not the way you should address that argument.

That's very interesting. It is two separate issues. You hear a lot about some conservatives kind of saying that these queer books are inherently porn. But you are right. There's a bigger conversation, which is that adults use libraries, you know, why is that not a place where pornography would be available? There's a big philosophical question. That's totally interesting. Well, and like I, when I think about this is like my thing is just like having worked the front desk at a public library, like, I checked out so many romance novels to so many people. And it's like, what's really the difference there between that and like Playboy? It's a matter of me. them, right? These are written words. So you assume that they're safer somehow than like a Playboy

magazine where you can see like a woman's scantily clad or whatever. But like and then then you factor in ebooks and how like the number one thing that public libraries check out is romance and erotica, right? Because that's because it's more private that way. Right. There's less there's you know, your neighbors aren't going to see you checking out, you know, like the best erotica of 2023, which is the kind of thing that my old library that I worked at had. And so it was just like, are we really concerned with like porn here? Or are we concerned with how visible sexuality is? And that just circles right back to, you know, conservatives and what they believe is acceptable versus what is. And then part of obscenity, too, is always it's the community's standards.

I forget exactly how it's phrased. But there's part of that too when they weigh what obscenity is what the community standards are for that. So it could vary quite wildly. And yeah, no, it's a really weird time for libraries right now, I think. But yeah, Jay is 100% correct. And why don't we have porn in libraries? And if we did, how do we do that in a way that works? Instead of just writing it off the table. So that answers my question, which is, are there libraries? Because I know, you know, erotica is about it in for written word as much as, you know, that is the closest equating to a, like, visual porn that most would think of. But libraries also have video, DVD rentals, downloads. Are there any libraries with, I guess, what the majority would call, you know, traditional bonzo pornography

in their video archives? Does that exist in any libraries? It depends. It's more common in academic, libraries because of like women's studies courses. Oh, yes. But also there are some more sort of like specialized libraries. Like, for example, back at the end of January, when Justin and I went to the live show, we also went to the leather archives, the museum in Chicago, which does have a library inside of it. And it's just pouring in there.

And there's another library in Chicago that I actually volunteered at when I was in grad school called the Gerber Heart. And it's a queer library in archives. and some of the DVDs that I cataloged were pornography. And that was a thing that circulates in that library. Like when people say, oh, there's not porn in the libraries. I'm like, no, there is. I know because I cataloged it.

So it just depends on the type of library, usually. I fear that a library should be a trove of information and an expression of existence as human beings and then not contain something that is pretty a big part of most human, you know, existent in such an interesting kind of relic of, you know, I guess you could say religion or conservatism or things where it is very fascinating. You know, even you saying that, I'm thinking, you know, I have tinglers that are references to or written about big event. You know, you can go back in chronological order, look at my tinger shorts. And really, it's like reading history for the last years because there are different political events or different things. But also that happens with,

you know, visual pornography where it really makes the new, you know, the Arabelan parody from back in that election. I'm just thinking of these things where there was a big news item that was based around a piece of visual pornography and the idea that that is somehow not historically relevant. And whatever you think of it, even ethically, even if you said, I don't like any of that on ethical bounds or the creation or the industry, I think denying that it has historical context is pretty silly, actually, when you really think about all these events. It is silly. It is.

Yeah. So I was really curious to ask if there is kind of anything in particular that you love about writing erotica? Like, it's what your catalog is probably mostly known for at this point in time. So, like, you've been doing it for a long time. Like, what are your favorite aspects about writing it from the initial creation all the way through people's reactions? I find specific to erroneca, I find the fact that it is generally a genre where there's a, it's almost like a one-beat story. And I just made a pun accidentally. that was not my intention, but I did really mean that, and now I realize that's a great cut.

But with my horror novels, I am writing, those are very much like three-act structure, very much traditional story beats generally of, I use film story beats a lot. So, you know, I can map those out. What I like about erotica as an art form is because they are shorts, it is essentially a single beat, which is the character has a problem, and then you have to figure out how did they solve that problem with that? And so it's such an interesting. That was great.

Finally, the soundboard makes an issue. And I think that's so interesting that there's an entire genre that just has this structure, especially when you look at, you know, the 3-X structure is, So, you know, that's basically prehistoric. It's just so ingrained. And then to just kind of have this thing where you say, well, what is it that makes this function as the one being? And honestly, because erotica has the separate goal, it's supposed to arouse, you know, a lot of buckaroos, it's supposed to get them off. And so that, and I talked about this before, like horror, like comedy, are these interesting genres where you have.

have a second goal. And honestly, not even a thigh goal. It's almost like the beat and then traditional structure is the side goal. And your main goal is either to kind of arouse with erotica, to stare with horror, or to make laugh with comedy. So those genres have always just fascinated me. So I think, yeah, that's my third part of writing erotica, just knowing that I'm exploring this really unique genre. I felt so interesting. Yeah, the, uh, the horror. Vanguard podcast talks about that relationship between horror, comedy, and erotica a lot. They're always saying horror wants to do things to your body. Yeah.

And they talk about rom-coms every once in a while. And they also, we are very good friends. And they ask me to give them a good shout out on the podcast. And I was like, perfect slide in. But yeah, that's something they talk about a lot. And also, I was watching one of your interviews earlier where you talk about with, I believe is Camp Damascus about how you call it more cathartic horror as opposed to more darker horror. Like, my trot is more on the darker horror side, but it makes complete sense because cathartic

horror, it has sort of the same goal of like romance or erotica where I know at the end that everything's going to turn out good, either, happy ever after or happily for now or whatever. But how the hell do we get there, right? How do we go through all of these obstacles to get there. And that's what I really like about romance and erotica. And so I was like, oh, this makes complete sense that like cathartic horror kind of maps a little bit onto the same kind of structure as romance and erotica. Although here's one difference that I would say is that I think you have to trust, you have to trust either the author or the director or whatever who's telling a cathartic horror story. Because one thing that you did say, the only difference is that I don't think,

I don't think that you know, you have to have a thing in the back of your head where you're not quite sure what kind of horror it's going to be. I think the job of a cathartic horror writer, and that's what I would call myself, is to ease the edge of a sort of brutalist kind of hardcore horror. And I always make the audience think this time it could go in it. Because I actually think that the real key to it is not knowing and then being taken that direction. So it is similar in some ways, but a little different. It's like a rollercoaster. It's the feeling that you're, you know, maybe going to fly off and trash and die, but also knowing that, you know, there are safety checks and these different things. So I think that the best catharsis can only work if you have.

actually believe that there are the stakes where it could not go. And so I'm kind of experimenting. You know, I have set up, you know, straight, my first kind of horror novella, very cathartic. I think Camascus is cathartic. I will say there's something coming up, you know, I think what I write is very positive, but there are some things trouting that I think could be, could be a lot. We'll see. We'll see. I'm playing around and I'm experimenting. But yes. This segues into my next question is I was listening to your interview

on Talking Scared that you did last year where you mentioned the comedy horror sort of erotica thing and like there are so many parallels there that are super interesting. Like there's the element of anticipation, there's elements of disgust,

there is, you know, so many things crossover things between those three genres. But I was kind of curious, like, what sort of other crossovers between those genres have you discovered and having kind of played between horror and erotica? Or are there any other sort of elements between those that you are exploring or are hoping to explore in the future? Yes, there's two. One is timing, obviously, which kind of goes back to the tension and release of the way that you get

these bodily reactions, whether it's fear, laughter, or arousal, is through peaks and valleys. and peaks and valleys inherently involve time, how much are you going to build that tension, where you're going to release it. So that's one similarity. I would say the other thing that kind of you wouldn't expect but have been very interesting for me is I prefer to write high concept ideas. A lot of bookeros actually kind of misuse that term

or don't really know what it means. I would say all my writing is pretty high concept, especially my queer horror, which is a high concept for listeners who don't know. something that that means, like, really artsy, elevated, kind of like a difficult to understand thing. High concept is actually the opposite of that. If you talk about a high concept film or something like that, it's essentially something that the concept who that fell the movie without an actor or director attached, it's a one-sentence idea

that generally has a bit of irony to it. And it's almost like, almost in some ways a joke, even if it's not a comedy, a really obvious high concept example would be the film Liar Liar which the one sentence pitches a lawyer can't lie for a day. So that is like the epitome

of high concept of just kind of taking something, flipping it on its head. And so I have straight my core novella which is that one day or year, zombie apocalypse but it only affects the

cisgender straight people. you know, so Camp Damascus, spoilers for anyone who has not read Camp Damascus, skip ahead name 30 seconds, but let's say a minute because I do ramble, but skip ahead and then go by Camp Damascus. But Ted Damascus is about, you know, V-Ns just to find the means and in a church, instead of removing possessions, invoking possession to stop what they perceive as sin. So it's taking these familiar ideas and then kind of in a one sentence, kind of twisting them. Yeah. I think that and and erotica and horror are all very good with high pizza. I think, you know, a big influence for me is Jordan Peel. And if you look at his work as a comedian on Keene Peel, a lot of those

sketches, if you took the idea and filmed it a different way, would be horror. You could film them as horror sketches. And a lot of romances are like that, too. Absolutely. Yes. And then Jordan Peel's movies, you know, if you take what Get Out is about and say, you know, it is, it is these kind of old white people kind of stealing black bodies. That is a horror premise, but also that could have been a sketch on Key and Peel. And so I think when you take those high concept things, that goes for those three genres, even pornography, if you really look at, I mean, these days, if you're looking at, the industry of pornography is pretty dang gonzo now where it is just, Buckroos are just having sex.

There's not generally a story behind it. But I think kind of in the 70s, 80s, and 90s when people think of, it's generally, you know, a pretty heightened setup about it then a nurse or a king's man or a dang firefighter or something. So all of these really high concept ideas work. And I think ultimately what that relates to is all three of them are camp in a way, because I think camp is high concept. So I think that that is kind of why queer horror works for me and why, you know, I think a lot of Bukhuz resonate with tinglers as erotica and also some as humor. Yeah, we were talking about your upcoming appearance in our discord and someone said something.

And I said, no, tinglers are political. commentary first, erotica's second. Yes. I would say so. I would say that they are, well, you know, what's interesting is when I write them, I, they, I don't know what I do first. I do write message first. That's a very astute observation. I always want them to function as a piece of erotica. And that, I would call that the heart of it. But you are correct is that because I am such a message first writer, It is generally the message as commentary and that the erotic that is the vehicle. And then I honestly, I didn't say this all the time.

I really don't write them to be funny. I don't really like, personally, I'm not a big comedy guy, but what I have learned is that I kind of have a naturally funny voice and perspective. So when I write things, even horror kind of ends up. kind of funny and and tinglers I can lean into it a lot more and Bacruz will find it funny but interestingly the goal of them really is not to be comedy which I think is probably one of the most interesting things about it because it is clearly very funny to Bruce and that's great I mean sex is funny yeah sex is inherently weird and silly so like yeah run with it and it's also hot

these things are they are the same, yeah. Yeah, like I loved the way in one of the episodes of my friend Chuck when you talked about, when you wrote about the like physical manifestation of washing my hands, that one, how you talked about how, you know, with that one, you wanted to talk about it's the importance of washing your hands during the pandemic and like good hygiene, but also like forming habits and trying to take the negative connotation away from habit forming. instead of making it hot lesbian hand washing situation. And it was awesome.

I was like, yes, this is great. Yeah, like, I just, I loved the way that you talked about that, about like, the messaging and the erotica, they're the same thing. You can't really separate them. Yeah. Yeah, there was another thing you had mentioned somewhere. I've just started Camp Damascus, so I just bought it. And this is, this always happens where I have an author on and I want to get the whole book done. But then I just do everything else, like watch all their interviews instead so that I don't ask the same question they've been asked a million times.

No, no worries. So I'm just at the part, I'm just after like chapter one. I'm like halfway through chapter two. But you mentioned at one point, years ago, how the terror of God was really like the concept of if there is a God and if like how a horrifying a concept that can be in and of itself, especially if there is a, you know, a Christian god. it sends people to hell for being queer. I just bought a book called The Horror of God. It's about, like, Job, and I think it also ties in Islam. But is that one of, like, the main sources of horror for you?

Or is it one that you fix it on? You know what? I think it is kind of, it is both, yes, that, but kind of the opposite of that. I've never been a religious Bukaru. Religion has not to, you know, it's, I'm always very flattered by Campanaski's reviews and stuff, because a lot of workers say, oh, well, Chuck must have kind of grown up in the church and all this stuff. Exactly what I thought.

Yes. And no, not at all. I think I kind of about maybe six or seven encountered the idea of a kind of a Christian god. And I don't know about that. It seems kind of being silly. And then didn't really think about it too much anymore. But, you know, in my youth, I, you know, there's a lot about me that is private, but something that I have talked about a little bit is, you know, my teenage years and 20 were spent

traveling the country, a little Jack Terawak style cruising around, kind of docking, without a home, and going all over the place, getting rides, and kind of meeting a lot of buccarees. And I was very close with, and I'm still very close with, some very religious buckroos. a couple of buckaroos that were raised in quotes. One of them, you know, that you might, that buckroos have kind of, you know, one of the big cults. And so actually, I called them up and interviewed them before right in Kansas.

And also, I think that, you know, coming from a place of, I think because I didn't have that religious upbringing, but had very religious friends at a young age, you know, I would attend their root beer keggers. When they were definitely old enough to be having beer, beer, they were still having the root beer. I was at one that the police came to break it up,

and everyone tried to give out some minor in possessions, and were shocked when the partygoers revealed that it was all root beer. So, you know, I had personal experience, and I think a lot of times I talk about writing from a place of love or creating from a place of love. And that can sound pretty abstract, but I like having Camp Damascus to point to, which is that, you know, as you're reading, you will see characters in it that are religious characters that a lot of Buccarus resonate, that I think another author who wasn't writing from a place of love could have handled in a pretty aggressive way. And I think

that because I'm coming at it from a place of love, those characters can really sing and it can kind of bring together some things. And I think what it does is it make Camp Damascus less of an anti-religion book and more of an anti-using religion for hate book, which is, I think, I think, nice. So, yeah, that just comes from running from a place of love. I think my fear generally is kind of the opposite of that, is at such an early age to kind of reject the idea of kind of a sentient, only present being. The idea of death, the idea of the thighs of the universe, those are awe-inspiring things.

They're beautiful things. But when you really think about them, they're also kind of frightening in a lot of ways as well. Yeah, that's great. Thank you for letting me know. I do love religious horror. There's always some I go back to. But I want to make sure that you have enough time to talk about your upcoming book, Bearer, Gays. So is there a pitch that you have and you would like to share with the listening?

Let's see. I think that if you like pathetic horror, and I'm not going to give away the ending, because I will say that there's, you know, not everything goes right in this book, but I do think it's a very cathartic read. I think that it is very, it's kind of a love letter to fandom, I think. I think that it's a love letter to kind of human creation. I know that we are living in an increasingly obvious.

automated time. I think that it's also, interestingly, because through writing tundlers, I've gotten very close to a lot of aexual buccaroos by writing asexual tinklers, tinglers without any sex that kind of follow the erotic of flannel. So I have a lot of the ace and aerobuds. And interestingly, I actually think that Kim, that barrier gates is a love letter to my asexual and aromantic buds. Because there's kind of some controversy, a lot of gatekeeping from queer community about that big. I think Barry to Gays makes it pretty clear where Chuck stands on issues of gatekeeping. So, I don't know, that's a pretty vague pitch, I would say. But Camp Damascus, I think it's kind of better to go in cold and let the mystery unfold. Sure. I did, you mentioned Jordan Pee,

And I saw another interview where you said, Get Out was almost a direct line to Camp Damascus happening because you realized how cathartic it could be. And if the movie hadn't ended the way it had, then maybe Camp Damascus never would have happened. Was there a similar eureka moment for Bear Your Gaze? I've heard you take a lot of inspiration from movies. Yes. I think, yes, Camp Damascus, you know, Jordan Peel, Get Out was so brilliant. and he is doing his own, you know, marginalized horror. And so I do as well, you know, but I'm writing for the queer community.

And so I think I had, if you're in a marginalized group, there is already a lot of horror and trauma flying around in the real world. And I just thought, how do you make horror that is escapist and cathartic, but also has the troaks of horror has some brutality and all these things. Just how do you thread that needle and make something that is moving for a marginalized community? And then, you know, he really is such a genius with that. And so that helped me crack the code. I think that the cracking the code for bear your gaze was I had this idea for a long time. And then I watched a video about

the barrier gaze phenomenon, and I've already known about it. But I just kind of, there's a very specific event that happened involving the show Supernatural that got me very generally don't get that about barrier gaze things. I don't know why. I just, there isn't one of them in my history where I really got that upset, but that one kind of, kind of got me to say. And so that kind of was the catalyst where I thought, okay, I've had this idea for a long time. Suddenly I had these really big feelings about barrier gays. And, you know, like I said specifically with that show. And then I thought, well, it's more than just this show.

There's all kinds of movies and stuff. I'm going to kind of create a story and take this idea in and kind of give these characters that I think have been mistreated. And this is why I say it's kind of a love letter to fandom. I think give them another chance with some of these characters that we have felt wronged for rooting for. And so I think the catharsis of it is drawn from that. That's fantastic. I can't wait to read it now. I'm trying to be mysterious because it's there's so much.

I would say that barrier gaze, as far as a big, swings in art. For sure, the biggest thing I have taken artistically. I think that it is more autobiographical. A lot of Buckers try to find out about my way under the mass, but it is very much about my own life as a creator. And so, and then conceptually, to bring in these elements from fandom and different shows and stuff, I can't really think of anything I am not aware of anything like it. So I think it'll be interesting when it really comes out and Buckers realize, oh, that's what this is about, is going to be kind of a wild time.

So I always have to kind of hold my tongue and think, well, I can't spill too much. We're not going to be in the news for like, Barrier Gays Leaks happen on obscure library podcasts, gay library podcasts. Yes. And well, not with that attitude. Let's see. You know what? You know what?

I won't be trying harder. So tell me more about the influences that went into barrier games. Only if you're a coward. You know what? I do need that confidence. When you're, when I guess you've already sort of answered this when you're talking about barrier gaze pulling from your life. But I mean, is there other, and you interview other people. But is there anything historically that you play with?

in queer history or is it you're is are you really just pulling from your life and people you've met with barrier gays with barrier gays or camp damascus or any anything else you want to you know with barrier gays I am pulling from

supernatural and pulling from lost RIP Mr. Friendly also known as Z who died and then in a flashback episode we learn was gay the whole time an interesting way to treat a gay character.

That's so barrier gays that he comes out after he's dead. There's a show called The Hundred that is, you know, there is a lot, and actually, Buffy, you know, a lot of Bucreys are very excited because the main character is named Nisha, which has the relationship to supernatural, but there's three main characters, and the other one is Tara, which I think is, Buffy fans will be aware of. And then Zeke is the last one, which is probably the most obscure, but that is actually a reference to loft.

So, yeah, there are different kind of in-point to media. There's references to my own media. I mean, there's, you know, Camp Damascus is kind of involved in Beirford. I think so if you are, here is one little thing I can say that I think is a fun little thing to let you know how meta-barrier-gays is. When writing the book, I had to change a character's name because it is a real person, a real famous person. And the legal department had some problems.

Let's just say that the legal department was okay with it until they got the draft and realized what this person was doing. And then the name change happened. But a lot of readers, when I mentioned, I tweeted about the legal department and they said, oh, wow, I wonder what parts had to change. And I thought, this book is so meta that they'll know what parts had to change because when I had to change it, I had to go back in and add a whole new part of the book where the lead character has to change a character's name because the legal department makes them change the name. So readers will actually know what name had to be changing because now it's in the book where I talk about the legal. It's amazing. It's a pretty big swing of a book, is I guess what I'm saying.

And it's available for pre-order now already? Yes, yes. And, yeah, well, this is a library. So you all, you all, you know, pre-orders, dang, they're important. I think that maybe the video game industry has kind of given a bad thing. But as far as publishing book, yes, if you have heard this and you are interested, pre-orders are very, very important. Yeah, we'll make sure that people know. And we always want them to, because we have tons of people who order, you know, or love to read and things like that.

Although, it's a stereotype. I try to break down on this show as well. Like, my job is to organize information, not necessarily sit there and read it all day. I'm a librarian, not a reader. A professional reader. A lot of our listeners have controls over budgets and acquisitions and can say, yes, I'm going to buy this book for my library and I'm going to buy a million copies like we would for a James Patterson novel. Put Chuck Tingle where you normally put the James Patterson novels. Please order a million copies.

I think my publisher would be very happy to get that million book order. Yeah. I think you've oversold it, Jay. Nope. Okay. Now with that attitude. You know what? Again, I'm being shown.

Exactly. We have some feral listeners. Honestly, but shockingly shy when I ask them, do you have any burning questions for Dr. Chuck Tingle? And they go, no, no, no, we're good. Yes. You know, that's okay.

They sue the mask and they think there's a buckery who doesn't want to be asked questions. When funny enough, I do love being asked questions. but I can understand that. I think one person sent in a question that was about when you are writing your tinklers about the human personification of insert object or concept here. Like obviously, of course, we love the pound of the butt by my library card. Yes, of course. The title was right? But this person wanted to know, like, how do you come up with those?

Like, do you have a dartboard that you throw things at? Or do you just get inspired? Like, how do you come up with your, like, human version of insert thing here? As my phone and my notes, and then when I'm trotting through the day, something will happen. And generally, if I think, oh, that's really relatable. That's kind of a feeling or an idea that everyone kind of encounters, that I'll write it down. I think, oh, that's an interesting thing to explore with a tingler. I think when they resonate the most is when there's empathy.

where everyone kind of sees it and thinks, oh, that's a feeling that I've had, or that's, that's kind of a thing that I've noticed. And you can't really just sit down in brai stores. And then there's another type of tingler that's kind of just like less topical. You know, sometimes something happens in the news and it's me synthesizing my feelings on it and then kind of expressing that in a real book. And then the other kind is kind of just, I'm building out the world. And generally that, if it's something that's kind of seems like a strange combination of ideas, like a mummy race car, for instance. Love that one. Which there is a tingler about a race car. You know, you think, well, why isn't it just about a race car? I think that in general, yeah, when I do those combinations, it will generally have to do with, you know, a story I want to tackle what the theme is. And I think, oh, that would be interesting.

There's a lot of lawyers in the Tingleverse, a lot of bigfoot lawyers and stuff, and that's another when you add on kind of a thing. And generally that just has to do with, oh, if I have some feeling, I think the story is going to be Beth told if it's about this character who's maybe very objective and doesn't bend the rules and it's strict. And I think, okay, well, that's going to be a lawyer character and then they're going to learn to kind of loosen up or something like that. generally it comes from whatever feeling I'm trying to express. And then on the page, it ends up being a kind of absurdist in its own way, which is wonderful. It's kind of funny that all these very kind of logical things, when you extrapolate them and kind of don't have any fear or boundaries that it's going to seem too strange for Buckaroos can really turn into these beautiful kind of absurdist things that I think are very powerful. Yeah, like handsome rabbit that's a librarian. Well, I will tell you, if I had that idea, I could not,

because rabbits are living animals. So I can only do extinct animals. Ah. Yes. Wait, are you telling me Bigfoot's extinct? Well, or cryptozoological. Oh, thank God. I will say if the big feet came out of the woods to reveal themselves,

I would have to take down all my on my Bigfoot tinglers because then you would enter a bestiality realm which is not there. But a good example, actually, a couple of years ago, I wrote an Easter tingler

and it's about the Easter Bigfoot, not the Easter buddy. So there you go. We support Monster fuckers on this podcast. Yes, there you go. I have also written Bigfoot erotica before. Oh, there you go. Incredible.

Yeah. I'm very handsome. I mean, It's kind of, that one is just right for the picking. It's like big, big feet. We all know what else is big. It's just like, it's. Well, this was a lesbian bigfoot.

Oh, that's right. Yeah, I wrote it for someone else in like a challenge. And I did a, it was like a Southern Gothic horror story with like with skunk apes. Lord of Boys. Yes. That's great. I live in the Pacific Northwest. So it's like Sasquatch, sicker on like every scene.

single car. So, like, joking about, like, Bigfoot, like, walking out of the woods. I'm like, that would just make people here more feral for it for the concept of Bigfoot than like, yeah. Where in Pacific Northwest are you? I'm kind of in the Seattle area, so. Oh, okay, okay. I've trotted around there quite a bit. Chuck's manager is in Seattle. So I know all the places around. Boston just has ghosts. We don't have anything. Don't sell yourself short. That's great. Yeah, well, I mean, I have been to the Cryptozoology Museum a couple times. I was going to bring that up. I was going to ask if you've been because there's a very handsome painting of a Bigfoot with very kissable lips.

He's really, he's really, I've got a photo of it. I'll send it to you after we're done for recording. Oh, Chuck has also been to Portland, Maine. Like I said, I trotted around. Yeah. I trotted around in my younger years. I think I have, Chuck has been to every state, actually. Ever than Alaska. Never tried into Alaska. I've got a fix that, I think. Somebody had a Juno bookstore there.

Alaskan Library Association, get on it. Yeah, exactly. I've been following your just, I'm sorry to keep you as long as I possibly can without letting you go, but you can just tap out at any point. But I have been following your Patreon, and I saw your drawings that you've been doing. And I was wondering if you're building something up to that, or if it's just a daily sort of meditative thing? Or what's going on with that project?

So I do it to, I do timeline Tuesday, where I draw a creature from a different timeline every Tuesday on my Patreon. I just like it. I think it's a really fun imagination exercise, very meditative. I think eventually, you know, all that material is there, I thought that'd be kind of fun to put into a book. But I am intentionally not thinking about it like that, because, I just want it to kind of be its own little thing.

That's important when you are creating to kind of have these little, you know, these things that don't necessarily in the service of kind of the big project that you let your mind trotting, trot out in other ways. I think that's very important, at least for me. I feel that way about the show a lot, that it has to be fun first and anything that we create for, if we were to ever create a book from it or anything like that or stuff. I don't know what you could do with this stuff. Catalog of cat sounds. That would always, that would always just be incidental.

The main thing is that we're just doing this and hanging out and having fun and meeting really cool people. Is there any final thing that you wanted to let listeners know about? Let's see. Well, first of all, I just want to say, you know, it is we are on this timeline. We have a beginning. We have it and we travel on it and we try to use our time and make our decisions as best we can. Which of those decisions kind of branches off and creates little timelines.

And I do kind of try to stress that there's a lot of power in that, even just taking a walk in the park or putting money in a buds meter who you'll never meet. Little things very much matter. And for the listeners and this audience of librarians, you know, I think that for anyone, it can be easy to forget how much you are doing by making these choices. But holy cow, the amount of power in these choices that you're making all the day and time recommending books and things like that. Unbelievable, unfathomable power to bend this timeline, to prove love is real, to add a little bit more creation and push back against the endless cosmic void. I just want to say, thank you, first fellow, for wielding that in the way that you do. And second of all, just I always remember that if you ever feel like it doesn't matter, it really, really does. It really does for a buckaroo, just kind of making a sandwich in the morning and choosing to prove love that way.

But then if you're handing out books, holy cow, it matters so much. So thank you. You're going to make me cry. Well, Chuck, thank you so much for coming on. Oh, thank you for having me. This is a treat. It's been really nice. I appreciate it a lot.

We hope your opinions about librarians are a little better now after the Texas thing. We hope we've restored your faith. Oh, no, no. I'm a big, I'm a big librarian fan. So there you go. And also a fan of handsome library cards. Who is it? Yes.

Yes. Again, sentient, living, handsome, ripped library card any day of the week. Mm-hmm. Same. Yes. Yes. All right. I agree.

Amen. Chuck, hang on the line so we can get your recording after I hang up. And good night.