librarypunk - 126 - Lo and Behold, Reveries of the Connected World (2016)

Episode Date: April 15, 2024

Movie night. We’re learning about the cutting edge of postmodernist impact from the Internet in 2016.  Media mentioned https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5275828/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lo_and_Behold,_Reveries_of_the_Connected_World https://walkerart.org/magazine/minnesota-declaration-truth-documentary-cinema-1999/  https://walkerart.org/magazine/werner-herzog-minnesota-declaration-2017-addendum  https://www.wired.com/story/mirai-untold-story-three-young-hackers-web-killing-monster/  https://qz.com/778747/an-early-internet-pioneer-says-the-construction-of-the-web-is-crippling-our-thinking https://www.reddit.com/r/ElectroBOOM/comments/1772skr/server_room_goals/ https://www.thecut.com/article/amazon-scam-call-ftc-arrest-warrants.html https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/04/24/the-ecstatic-truth

I'm Justin. My pronouns are he and ze? I'm Sadie, and my pronouns are they them. Oh, man. Now, I also can't do a Van der Haetzog impression, and my pronouns are he, him. I'm glad you two were so easy to impress. Well, it was a really bad impersonation, but it was still funny. Thank you. No, Van der Heatzog talks like this, and it's kind of constrained. I think some of the questions in this movie, he was doing like a space.

ghost thing where he changed the question that he asked in post. Oh, yeah, that would make complete sense. I mean, it doesn't- We'll get into that. It doesn't really show him asking questions, right? Most of it was just like inferred what the question was from the people's answers. Or did I completely miss that part? Just like blacked it off.

Well, he's asking questions. We just don't see him on camera. Yeah, which is what Space Ghost could do because he's animated. So they would interview people. It's the intimate dream of itself. I think you were the only one of us was insane. Yeah, they would ask nonsense questions, and then the guests would get really confused, and then they would redo all the questions and cut in the interview footage.

So it just looked like everyone they interviewed was really weird. Yeah, that sounds like something very, and never apologize. Okay, so Jay suggested this movie. Yes. And he's written notes. No and behold by Vin. Reveries of the Connected World. What a great movie.

It's so good. I'm going to watch it again. It rolls. It slaps. I say the end of you would love it. So I first watched this back when, remember when we did that episode about Digital Gardens because I wrote a paper? I first watched this documentary when I was writing that paper because of the bit about Ted Nelson in it. And so we talked a little bit about all the Ted Nelson stuff from it.

In that episode, that was like two years ago. Jesus Christ. Last year, something. Yeah, no, that was two years ago. And yeah, I think it's, it's an interesting movie that has both not aged well and also aged extremely prophetically well. It came out in 2016, and it's about the internet broadly, like the history of the internet, as well as not just like, here's what the internet is, but more importantly, like, how have human beings use the internet? Like, how has the internet affected how human beings relate to each other? as well as, like, relate to their environment in both good and bad ways.

And because Verner is never going to be like, this thing is great. Like, Grizzly man is all about going like, this man did not know that nature is an unloving God or like, you know, it's all but it is chaos and murder. Like, Verner is not about, like, Verner loves that things are chaos, that the universe knows no smile. That's Verner's whole thing.

And what I found interesting was that this movie was sponsored by a company. I didn't know this until I was looking into it. Net Scout Systems sponsored this film, which I didn't notice anything about them in the movie, so that's kind of surprising. And there's this great quote from an interview with TechCrunch,

where Werner says that he hoped the film when asked by TechCrunch would affect he hoped the film would have on the audience. Hetzog replied, I think we have to abandon this kind of false security, that everything is settled now, that we have so much assistance by digital media and

robots and artificial intelligence. At the same time, we overlook how vulnerable all this is and how we are losing the essentials that make us human. I would say, this is not Old Man yells at Cloud the documentary. Like, this is not an anti-internet or anti-technology film by any means. But I think it's more about questioning and examining what we're doing with it. Yeah, I think it's a straightforward post-modernist piece of what is the self and particularly how does the internet affect how we think about ourselves and how we relate to ourselves and relate to each other? There's a lot of scenes that have mostly to do with communication, like the idea of extrasensory perception through technology, sending ideas in the universal language of the brain rather than writing.

There's a couple MRI guys who are talking about the ability to learn the language of how your brain interprets information, whether you're watching it or reading it or just thinking about it. Tweet sent from my algae fridge via my brain implant. Neuralink, basically. Yeah. And Elon's in this movie. Yeah, and he looks like an idiot. It's great.

Absolute fuckwad. He looks like such an idiot. And there's this smart hot lady with tattoos that makes him look like an idiot. Oh, my God. I want to marry her. It's so good. Yeah. Elon looks like he's having an existential crisis in this movie.

There's just like long shots of him. kind of just sitting there not saying anything. That was his move in interviews, too, for a long time, was to respond slowly. Yeah. It's a look expensive. And Herzog is not like, Herzog will make people do that on purpose. So I love that it like backfired for Elon because, and I'll get into this, because I feel like it's important to know about Werner Herzog and how he makes movies, particularly

documentaries. and what this film is trying to say and how it says it. And I'm going to get to use my little film studies brain for this that I don't get to use a lot anymore. But yeah, because there's like lots of cool. Like there's like the history of the internet in this. There's Ultimate Chad, Ted Nelson, who I learned his spouse. I mean, they are not married anymore, but they are apparently still friends and stuff. He's a trans guy.

Wasn't a trans guy when they were married, but decided to come. come out and move and they're still friends and I was like, hell yeah, we love it. Ultimate Chad. Came up with the term dildonics. We love Ted Nelson. I want to hold documentary on Ted Nelson. But it also talks about like internet harassment or like people who are

quote addicted to the internet. I'm actually very like, there's two parts of this like where it shows like there are where the, there's like the addiction part and then also the people who have the fake disease where you think you're allergic to like. like electromagnetic waves and shit, which is pseudos. Yeah, EHS. It is not a real thing. Now, those people's symptoms or whatever are like very real and disturbing their lives.

And that's bad, you know, that's bad. And they should get help and treatment. But what they think is causing it is not what's causing it. Right. And this is kind of just shown. Yeah, I really appreciated how like the different things that were sort of like juxtapositioned together, like the family. who went through the harassment and then the young people who were, you know,

this cracked me up because it's, you know, in the woods of Washington. That's actually like 20 miles from Seattle. So it's like not that far away actually who are addicted to gaming versus, yeah, like the people who live in the radio free zone, which totally fell down that rabbit hole this morning on Wikipedia. Oh yeah, me too. Yeah. And and yeah, against like, you know, mentions like Vince Surf mentioned, Bob Conn mentioned, you know, insert anime

Meta-a-a-a- person here yeah you know like who are just like these powerhouses father of the known internet

kind of thing you know versus these people whose lives have been very sort of very normally disrupted

by the internet you know what I mean like there's absolutely nothing like huge about the way that their lives have been disrupted except that

they're all interrupted by the internet and then like yeah talking about self-driving cars and robotics. And yeah, I really like the way he just kind of juxtapositioned all of that together and solar flares.

Yeah, because he's very like apocalyptic. He loves like thinking about like how like the things are like catastrophes and like he almost, he made this documentary one time about this guy where there was like a volcano that was going to go. And everyone was told to evacuate except for this one guy. And Herzog was like, I got to film this because he was fascinated by a person who's concept. conceptively and like ideas about death were so different than everyone else's. And the volcano ended up not going off. Oh, I was going to say, was that Mount St. Helens because that happened. Yeah. No, no. It wasn't that. It was a different one. But yeah, like, he's very interested in like catastrophes and like the chaos of the universe and how scary that is, but also it is very beautiful. But he loves knowing how like alien it is or apocalyptic, right? Like a lot of his documentaries explore. these kind of like very hostile environment. So it doesn't surprise me that like the,

a chunk of this documentary is talking about like, well, if there's solar flares, it will just destroy the whole internet and all of our communications and kind of is apocalyptic in a way. And it's not a question of if, but when. And he's like, tell me more. Yeah.

Yeah. I was talking to that hot lady. I would also be like, no matter what she was saying, we'd just be like, yeah, tell me more. Just keep talking so I can listen. Make Elon must look like an idiot more. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So for people who don't know, Werner Herzog is a German director. He's also an author and an actor. You may have seen him in The Mandalorian. He is, I would like to see the baby that's Van derogtsog. He also, he loves opera and has directed a bunch of operas. Me and Werner Herzog, he's just like me for real. And he like came, like, he sort of came to prominence in this film

movement called the New German cinema, which was like Germany's like film like New Wave movement. And it's inspired by like French New Wave, which I hate and Italian Neal realism, which I'm about. I don't really like a lot of new wave, except for New German cinema. So as you get like Rina Faspinder, Vendez, some really great German feminist cinema and like Marxist cinema, stuff like that. More it's like low budget. And like Ryaner Fassbinder was making movies about like gay people and a racial relationships and stuff like that. And so Werner comes like in during this and he makes

Aguirreau the Wrath of God. He makes a really great remake of Nospheratu and he does like documentary and fiction. And to him making these like there's no difference to him between how he makes his documentaries versus how he makes

his like drama films. And especially his like early films, but this is true even going through his whole careers. He loves putting actors in extreme conditions that mirror what is actually happening in the story. But he always stresses that he will never ask an actor to do something that he would not offer to do himself. So often, if he's putting an actor through something, he will also do it. Like when he asked Christian Bale to lose a bunch of weight for a movie, he also dieted the same exact way and was like starving

himself like during filming. He's like, if I'm going to make you do that, I will also do it. He is not a director that sits behind the camera, he gets in and does it as well. And he's very like Wagnerian, right? He loves like very dramatic and like existential like, you know, crises of the self and the other and man against nature and like all of this stuff. Like he's so into this. Which leads me to like the thing that most people talk about when they talk about Ben O'Hertzog and it is, reflects like how this documentary presents what it's presenting is his idea of quote ecstatic truth and this comes from a manifesto he delivered it's called the Minnesota Declaration aka the lessons of darkness which is also the title of a film he did where he talks about like especially a documentary

like the relationship between like filmmaking and truth which Which leads me to ask the both of you, what's a documentary? Miserable pile of lies. I'm going full, well, there's your problem. What's a documentary? Well, the assumption is that documentaries are nonfiction, film pieces meant to be entertaining and informative. Usually, in one way or another, I would say they aim for both. Think of a lot of nature documentaries are probably the most popular. And then there's the whole genre of documentaries that make fun of the style.

Documentaries in particular make fun usually of cinema verite, right, Sadie. I guess I would also say that a documentary, I mean, it's obviously supposed to be nonfiction. But yeah, I think that that line is a lot finer than people realize because they're also very sensationalist in a lot of ways. Like, cold-hard facts aren't entertainment and documentaries are usually meant for some form of entertainment, even if it is, infotainment sort of like, you know, like I'm a fucking nature documentary person, right? And like, David Attenborough voice is a thing that happens in my household very frequently. So like even, even, even filming nature, you have to frame it. You choose which parts of it you're showing. So like, it's, it's, it's, it's nonfiction in the same way a lot of book nonfiction is. It's like,

yeah, it's, it's somebody who's saying something that they believe to be true, but whether or not it's actually true or anybody else agrees with them is a different story altogether. Yeah. So documentaries are, quote, presenting the truth. No, they're not. Right? So in this, like, Minnesota declaration, he rips a new one into cinema verite, you know, the like cinema, true cinema, right? Objective, documentary style, fly on the wall type of filmmaking where you just like, you capture reality as it's happening and you're not staging it or whatever. And he's like, no, no, no, no, no. That shit's bullshit, right?

There's an infamous quote that goes around on New Year's, where he talks about how he was in a room full of directors, and they were talking about how you have to be the fly on the wall. And he was like, no, we're not the fly on the wall. We're the hornet that stings, right? Like, that's what you need to be as a documentarian. You're not the fly on the wall. You're the hornet that stings.

And everyone booed him, and he was like, happy New Year's motherfuckers. Or, no, you losers, is what he says. Like, happy New Year, you losers. And I'm like, yes. Incredible. Yeah, because he talks about, like, facts are like, the phone book is facts. Facts are not illuminating. Facts are boring. Like, there's nothing there in a fact. Whereas in a documentary or even in film, it's like, you're choosing where the camera goes, right? Like, everything is staged. Everything is fabricated. And so ecstatic truth comes from this, quote, fabrication and imagination and stylization. So, Like, for instance, in Grizzly Man, there's a scene where he's, like, interviewing a coroner. And the take that was used, it's uncomfortable to watch. Not because of what they're talking about, but like, the guy, like, the way the guy's saying stuff and it seems kind of unnatural.

It's because Verna Herzog made that guy do that take over and over and over and over again, and then use the take that felt fake, because that's where the truth comes from. If the scene where they're talking in, lo and behold, the scene where they're talking with the family, and the daughters are just like sitting there at the table and not saying anything and there's like food on the table. And then the parents are like sitting there. And it's all very like staged and posed. And there's a part where they all just kind of like look at the camera like all together because that's how they were directed to act. Right. Like in his documentaries, Verna Herzog will supply lines to people. So it's not just them talking, even though he's very improvisational in his filmmaking. But in documentaries, he will often feed people lines. He's like, I want you to say this. Right. Instead of just interviewing people, he will give them lines or he'll stage them a certain way. Right. Like in his addendum to his manifesto for a, you know, fake news world, like a post-Trump thing, which I find interesting from like a, you know, when librarians are freaking out about fake news and misinformation and all that. He talks about how like, when Michael Elangelo shows the Pieta, where Christ is 33 years old, and Mary is 17. Is he depicting a lie there? No, he's illuminating the truth, even though what he's showing didn't happen. It's an impossibility, right? It's like through these kinds of like pushing things to their extremes, sometimes, or purposefully doing misinformation, or purposefully doing something that's not real, that's where the truth, like, comes out. And I also in like the beginning of lo and behold, where he's talking to the guy with the internet, you'll notice like the focal length, like the camera lens that's used. It makes the guy almost look like too close in the shot sometimes. Like I always feel kind of uncomfortable in the interview scenes because it all feels so unnatural. Like there's like another filmmaker would not have used the focal length or the camera lens that Herzog is using because it's or like he would not put them so close or so far away. Like, it's also unnatural.

And so I went down a rabbit hole about what ecstasy means for ecstatic truth. Because, like, ecstasy, I always think of it, like, in like the religious sense or like the sexual sense. But apparently it's this whole thing in like existential philosophy as well. But it means to, for the subject, to be completely absorbed with and focused on the object, right? where everything outside of that goes away. So like when you're like hyper-focused on something, or in like existential philosophy, it's the like outside of oneself. And so like an ecstatic truth is a truth that is like comes from this like kind of mystic, religious, like everything else falling away. But it's just like a truth outside of itself. It's a truth through fabrication.

So yeah, there was like in his little addendum, he says, facts cannot be underestimated as they have normative power, but they do not give us insight into the truth or the illumination of poetry. Yes, accepted, the phone directory of Manhattan contains four million injuries, all of them factually verifiable. But do we know why Jonathan Smith correctly listed cries into his pillow every night? Which then, like, makes, like, some of the questions that Vernard is asking, and lo and behold, like, make more sense. Like, when the end is just him just asking, does the internet dream of itself? Like, he doesn't give a shit about, like, technology and stuff. He's like, Ted Nelson's talking about, like, hypertext and cut and paste

and all that. This guy's a fucking genius. You know, like, he's, like, more interested in these sort of, like, ways that things, when they, like, relate to each other, then how does that truth come out? Yeah, it felt like he was definitely flirting with Ted Nelson. I mean, Ted Nelson did come up with Diltonics, so. Who wouldn't? Who wouldn't? Ted Nelson, call me. I want to be your best friend.

Just watch that scene again. He's definitely like being flirty. He gets so mad about cut and paste. So funny. It's so mad. But yeah, Vener thinks about truth, quote, unquote, and this documentary about, it's about information, but it's about, or the internet, but it's felt like information and connection, right? And so how is he using fabrication and poetry in order to show the truth about the internet?

I think one of the great scenes is when he interviews Elon about Mars colonization and then talks to the hot lady with the tattoos. And while she's talking, it kind of cuts back to Elon just sitting there. And then Elon just says some, like, nonsense. He says he's never had a good dream. He only remembers the nightmares. It was still all edge, lord shit. It was. I don't even remember the nightmares.

But it was part of the discussion about solar flares and the interference they would have with our just in time delivery systems and shipping. And then also having Mars is a backup planet and how dumb that is because we can't really. breathe air anywhere else but on earth. Yeah. So if you are hesitant about this documentary because Elon Musk is in it, have no fear. He looks like an idiot. A lot of the guys in this movie look like idiots. I'll just say, it's great.

Yeah, especially the self-driving car guy. Yeah. Yeah, he asks, Herzluck asked the self-driving cars guy, can a machine make movies? And he's, the guy's like, yeah, sure. you know, machines can learn faster than humans, which machines don't really learn, but that's different. And he was like, yeah, self-driving cars would be great because if one car makes a mistake, all the other cars can learn from it. It's like, that also doesn't seem to be how they work. And then he says, could a machine love?

And he goes, well, what's the purpose of a machine loving if my dishwasher fell in love with my fridge? That wouldn't be a very good dishwasher. But I love that Herzog asks that. I love that Herzluck is like, could a machine love? Like that's the kind of, that's the, that's the Herdsawkes Spice, baby. He's like, oh, yeah, could movies, could robots do whatever? Could a machine do this? And then he's like, can a machine fall in that?

Well, I thought it was really funny because it's like all of these like tech dudes who are very clearly used to being interviewed about their tech shit. Mm-hmm. And like are used to talking about that. So they like have the certain cadence. And then the second that he poses these sort of out of left field questions to them, they like falter and like just kind of stare in that like why did you even ask me this question and it's like that's the point that's the point he's trying to make like yeah like you're thinking about all of this technology but you're not thinking about connection with and people yeah yeah and like

the I think I really did love the like can your dishwasher fall in love because to me that's just like a hell of charming idea the idea that right like I would love my refrigerator if I have to have internet of things kitchen appliances. I want them to be able to fall in love with each other, right? Like, I want to make a family in my kitchen. I don't got to be part of it, but I want it to exist, right? Because I'm that kind of sap. But like, yeah, obviously these guys are like, well, what would be the point? And I'm like, well, what's your point, dude, if you're not putting any of that into it, you know? It's like technology for the sake of technology has never actually gotten us anywhere good, I think. it just leads to weird shit like SpaceX launching rockets to Mars that will never actually be able to fucking colonize instead of, you know, meaningfully putting effort towards like climate change. Yeah. Anyway.

That's why the battlebots guy is great because like, yeah, like they show like how cool like the AI and these like little like fighting robots is. But more importantly, they're like, oh, and number eight, this is the one we really like. It's really special. And it's like they show like how much they. like what makes this one special and not because it's like, they, they like have affection for it. And Herzog shows that. Like, that's what the focus is on is like the affection they have for it. And I'm like, yes. Like, yes, do you love it? Yeah. Do you love it? Yeah. And the guy's just, it's so cute how he's just like, I mean, yeah, no, we love number eight, like, starts to try to explain why and then just sort of like falter. And it's just like, no, we just love it. I'm like, exactly. Yeah. Or like the one like cool legendary hacker guy. Like I love that the story that they tell is like of him hacking something for the joie de Vieve. It's not for money. It wasn't for and he just won it. He was just fuck it around. It was playful. I like I love that. I love that like hack like this like hacking as playful and not as like purely malicious. Like I was like yes, yes, yes. Like showing that. And that. And like, hack, like this like hacking as playful and not as like purely malicious. Like I was like, yes, yes, yes. Like showing that. Instead of like, oh, and this hacker did this thing. He's like, no, this guy was just fucking around and having fun. That's sort of the legend of Kevin Mittenick, though.

So, like, I wonder, like, and I'm obviously, I haven't read too much about him besides just like a Wikipedia article when he passed away last year. But, like, I wonder how much of that is played up from what actually happened because he realized that was his reputation. But I absolutely believe that it's true, if not in Kevin Mittnick's case. in somebody's case because people just like to fuck around, right? Yeah. The first internet worm was literally somebody fucking around and make like pretty much just accidentally infecting the entire fucking internet with this worm and then getting like nailed to the wall with the computer abuse act or whatever.

Like first person ever prosecuted under that. But like he was just literally just like, I wonder what would happen if I did this and fucking curiosity. Yeah, right? Like that's like the imagination that. Yeah, the poetry. Yeah. Well, and I just really like that he.

ended Kevin Mittnick's bit with being like, but you didn't sell it or anything. And in Mittnick is like, oh no, it was just a trophy. And then it just immediately cuts away from him. And I'm like, yep, that's such. Game respects game. Yeah, right. Well, and it also got me thinking like any, any sort of talk about cybersecurity or like legends in the field and stuff, I was, I'll have to see if I can find it again so we could put it in the notes. But it was an article about the three dudes who created like the Mirai botnet and how they went from just basically fucking around on forums to be having like a front that they used for cybercrime without even like really thinking about the fact that they had moved into cybercrime and these are dudes who are like 22 and using a loan

from their parents and how they went from that to getting prosecuted by the FBI. But then the agent who prosecute who like tracked them down and prosecuted them took them under his wing and connected them with cybersecurity. workers and they basically turned white hat and are all now like super well-known cybersecurity researchers who were like dudes in their 20s who fucked around too hard on the internet and got caught, right? So that's what happens to the people who get caught is they get offered government jobs. Yeah.

And like it's absolutely that narrative. Yeah. Because like it's like, oh, these promising young men, which is like narrative that's used in a in many different ways. But I just, I just always think it's interesting how it's like they created this thing almost by accident. And yet somehow like this FBI agent was just like, you know what, y'all aren't like terribly like you're not actively malicious even though you created something that took down half of the internet on the entire East Coast of the U.S. in like a single DOS attack and, you know,

created the thing that took down like, oh God, what's his name, Brian Krebs website for like four weeks or something like that. And was just like, no, y'all have potential. I'll hook you up with like the right people and I'm just like, it's such a fairy tale. It's the cybersecurity fairy tale is kind of what interests me about it. Sorry, tangent. No, it's a good tangent. I think I found the article. I put it in chat. Yeah, let me see. I don't know if it was this one or this was not the same one, but it looks like it covers the same story. Hold on. I think it was unwired. It's either on wired or the verge. Anyway, we can go on. I'll find it. So yeah, a thing that interests me also about this film is that like, you know, it's about connection, right? And it almost has this like, Johnny and I were

talking about this, like, this is almost like utopian, prelapsarian view of the internet. We're like Ted Nelson, this radical poet hippie, right, talking about Project Xanadu, King, King, King, King, and his little transclusion on his little houseboat, dragging his hand through the water and thinking about, you know, systems theory and shit. And all of that, even talking about the low of Oh, I guess of like the internet, which like, we'll talk about how this film gets its title, because it's just a cool story, is kind of obfuscating. It talks about it a little bit, but this film kind of obfuscates that like the internet was designed for the military. And it was meant to be a tool of the military industrial complex. And then there were cool.

Yeah. And then there were cool hippies like Ted Nelson who were like wanted to, you know, think about connection, right? Like this is a tool to connect each other. But even that one dude is talking about like the internet forums and like the internet directory. It's like, think about the kind of people who had access to the internet. Like it was never this utopian space of anonymity or wherever one was nice to each other. Like it was shaped by the type of people who were on it. And these like implicit biases and systems of oppression that we have in the real world, of course, get

replicated on the internet. There's never been my little asshole quote of the digital. Garden of Eden, right? That has never been a thing. We can't ever go back to that because it's not real, right? And so, like, I guess that would be one of my criticisms of this film is that it doesn't necessarily, I mean, it shows like the bad parts of the internet, but it's focusing more on, like, you know, the harassment aspect or like the addiction aspect and everything. And it doesn't talk about how the internet was a tool for the military. And that's, that, that, is going to shape then its entire.

That connection isn't made. But the very cool thing about the first message sent over the internet is that there was people at the University of California and they were on the phone with some other people, I forget where, and they had to have their own machine and to log in, you had to type of log. And then the machine would know that that meant log in and it would go. And so they typed L and they called the people and like, did the L go through? People were like, yep. And they typed the O.

And did the O go through? Yep. And then when they typed the G, the system crashed. And so the very first message sent of the internet was low, as in low and behold. And it's very prophetic, right? And I think it's very cool that that happened. But they talk about that like the only reason we know that is because like someone like wrote it down. And that like this film does talk about digital preservation or lack thereof, especially with all the scary solar players.

And how like there's so much information that is going to be lost because we're not writing. it down physically. Print out your emails, basically. The Wikipedia emergency project. Yes. That cracked me up. Basically, it was that sort of a tongue-in-cheek project where if like something happens, these group of people will know specifically to start printing off like different Wikipedia articles so they could try to preserve it all at once and, you know, like making hard copies of it. And I'm like, it's kind of one of those like two sides of the same coin thing because it's like, yeah, solar flare could happen, completely wipe out the internet, fuck up a whole data centers, massively lose a bunch of information. But we also, when we think about disasters, it's like that

paper could get waterlogged in a flood or burned up in a house fire or taken out by a volcano, right? So like there's like, yeah, just like both methods have their, their dangers. So it's always interesting when people talk about preservation as if one is more reliable than the other. I would actually argue that like physical paper preservation is probably at this point more reliable than digital preservation. But I don't think that's going to hold true forever. I think it's probably going to equalize at some point. But I this is why I say we need to all be Buddhists about this and accept the fact that things are impermanent and we will lose things sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. I like how I like how when they were talking about like the low message, how he was like compared

it to like, was it Christopher Columbus and how like somebody logged, like the guy who was up on the shipmast, like logged when they first spotted land. And like, we know that because they kept these logs. But like he holds up like the like, like, you know, like a yellow lined note pad and is like, we know this because of, you know, we only know this because of this note written here. And I'm like, those are this, that's the same exact thing though, right? Like we don't have the actual message preserved, but we have the notes they made about the message preserved. Just like. We don't see the land. And they're still alive.

Yeah, well, in that too. And like, but like in the same sense that we don't see the land that this sailor saw, we only know that he saw it because somebody wrote it down. Like, I just thought it was funny that they were like acting like they were such different things. And I'm like, it's literally just a written log. Both of them are a written log. Both of them are just documentation.

I don't understand why you're acting like one of these is like so much more obviously like useful and historic. Yeah. I like how they talk about how none of the students there realize how important that room is and how it's almost like a shrine. I'm sure everybody knows. I'm sure they show that on the tours and everything. But I love this like him like making it like this like religious space almost. Like it's a really cool way to start the documentary. The smell of the old parts of the machine of the packet. Oh, that was so sexy. It's so good. Just like, yeah, get all up in that machine. Like, server rooms have a smell.

Yeah. It's. Oh, the shot, Sadie, the shot of the server room with all of the wires so perfectly. Oh, my God. Pristine cords. I was like, someone's got a fetish for that. Like, surely. There's no way is a server room that tidy.

They are when they start. That's the thing. People take those photos when they finish putting it all together and they first get the data center up. and running and that shit. And then, you know, give it five years and it's a fucking spaghetti-ass mess because that's, that's, that's the entropy of computers. Yeah. Did you see the, the server room that was shaped to look like Frylock? Like what?

Like Frylock from Aquitaine. I've not watched Aquitaine. Oh, God. I know. Is Freelac the one that's French fries? Yep. I put it in the chat. It's on Reddit.

Of course it is. Oh, my God. Did they do it on purpose? Yeah. I mean, it has to be. Yeah. One comment says it's AI generated. I don't know if that's true or not.

Yeah. It looks like how in labyrinth, how they make some of the rocks look like David Bowie. But yeah, that's fucking frilock for certain server room as artistic endeavor. Mm-hmm. I mean, that's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the shot of the server room in this very much reminded me in like the, not the beginning of 2001 of Space Odyssey, but like past the primates part.

Once we get onto the space station, it's kind of just like going through everything, almost like this like circular like panning, like tour of everything. It like kind of had like a similar vibe of just like showing us the space and getting acclimated to it. It just like it looked so pristine. I was like, this is fake. Oh yeah. Or someone tidied this up. This looks too good. But that's the point, right?

It's not supposed to be facts. It's supposed to be ecstatic. Can we talk more about Ted Nelson? I love him. Absolutely. Yeah, I don't know much about him, except Xanadu. Yeah, he's like a fucking internet hippie. Like, he's always like, so, like, he is very, like, he's what happens when, like, the humanities are still intact, right?

Like, the way that he thinks about the internet and what it can do is very, very, very. very like idea first and then can we make the technology do it. It's not let's do a technology. It's what if technology could do this, right? Like his big gripe about cut and paste is that when you cut and paste something on your computer, you cut it, right? And then it goes into this invisible space where you can't see it. And then like your internet's clipboard or your computer's clipboard. And then where you put your cursor, then it interjects it back in. Instead of in real life with scissors and glue and shit, right, where you physically cut something out and then you, like, move it and transpose it, but you can see everything. And so he, like, talks about how writers would have stuff scattered everywhere.

Because, like, with cut and paste is where you're rearranging on a large scale and able to see. the relationships between parts. And he's so, he's very big on hypertext. Ted Nelson is the guy who invented hypertext, by the way. We love him. And he invented transclusion and the true back button, which is a back button where there's like a two-way connection instead of a one-way connection. So much of the internet and our hyperlinks, they take you somewhere, but then there's no

way to go back to where you were except for the back button. This is why like backlinks and obsidian and tools like that are so cool. But Project Sanadu was about hypertext and transclusion to show the relationship between text, like this literary concept of intertextuality and visualizing that literally in a computer program. So that if you are reading a document, there would be these visible links to other documents to show where that quote came from or how it's connected to this thing. And like transclusion where like a link, a bit of a chunk of something, would kind of be embedded in, hi, Arthur, embedded in something, but link back to its original source. Arthur, stop showing your ass on the podcast. Thank you, buddy.

Okay. Let him speak. And let his ass speak. So, like, he also, like, he thinks about, like, the way that we interact with information on the internet now is very much limited by how we think about how we interact with. paper, which is funny because his whole thing with cut and paste is that we should think about it more like how we think about with paper. My man contains multitudes. But it's kind of like how with e-books, right, we do the one book one loan thing because that's

how we do with physical books. But we don't need to have that constraint on us in a digital space, right? And so he thinks about how when we interact with documents online, we're interacting with them like we've with paper. but we aren't thinking about how we don't have the constraints that we have when we are working with paper when we're online. And I love how organic his thinking is. He talks about how he got all these ideas because he would trail his fingers through water and would see how the water would separate around his fingers,

and then connect back again and how that's how everything works, like how systems work and how information works. Whereas it's all of these like interrelated system like streams of disconnection and connecting again. And like that's how he views the type that's hypertext, right? All these these literal connections between things and they're not one way, they're two ways. So you are always seeing the context between information. Fucking love Ted Nelson. And yeah.

Can I say that that whole quote where he's talking about the water between his fingers and stuff? I was just the whole time I was just like this too is your. I mean, my man came up with Dildonics. I was actually just about to ask that question is, how does this all link back to Telto Dildonics? Like, how did he get from hypertext to, you know, intranet fucking? I just, I'm very intrigued by. My man is a poet.

I mean to read more about this dude. That's for certain. But yeah, like that rules history. So the term was, thank you, Wikipedia. The term was coined as early as 1975 by Ted Nelson, Chad, Chad, Chad. in his book, Computer Lib slash Dream Machines. The idea of virtual sex has been, okay, yeah. So it's from this book, 1974 book by Ted Nelson, printed as a two-front cover paperback

to indicate its quote, intertwingled nature. I love Ted Nelson. He came up with a word. Of course he did. Yeah, I don't know. I would have to read this. I don't have to look into it later because, yeah. But yeah, no, I love him.

Because Jizek also talks about teledildonics a lot. How he talks about how, like, tell, like, the ideal date would be, like, two sex toys, like, interacting with each other and so that the people wouldn't have to or something. I'm probably misquoting that. There's, Jizek talks about it somehow. But, yeah, no, like, the way that Herzog is very, like, poetic and humanistic in how he approaches. of technology. I think that's why the Ted Nelson bit is so good, is because Ted Nelson is the same, and that he is very poetic and humanistic and organic. He's very like Donna Haraway. Like technology and nature are not mutually exclusive. They're a cyborg, right? On my Donna

hair away bullshit. Whereas these other people in the documentary that don't view the internet as this thing of organic connection that just see the technology and not the people and not, even if they kind of talk about the connection and stuff, they're really just focused on, look at the cool technology that's making me money, right? Whereas I thought it was really cool when we get to like the neuroscientists who are talking about how we can like view, like, you know, have people watch a video of an elephant or something and by scanning their brain, we can kind of see what they're seeing. And like this universal language thing that Justin was talking about, like, they, like, yeah, this technology is cool. But what's really cool is like, look at what our brains can do and look and let's think about how we can then like be like as people, what this means for us as people and not what does this mean for technology.

My thing is why they were really cool. Whereas the self-driving car guy, he can fuck off. Elon Musk can fuck off. Like, the cool solar flares lady, she was like, we need to think about this planet that we're already on and live in before we start thinking about colonizing Mars like a fucking idiot. And that's when it cut to Elon Musk sitting there looking like a fucking dweeb. And talking about how he only remembers his nightmares. Herzog asks, like, will the internet dream of itself? That's how he ends the documentary.

is asking people about like, can the internet dream of itself? Like, what kind of question is that? I really liked that he ended with that because it was really interesting because, like, as he's asking these different people that he's interviewed over the course of the thing, it's like, it was like, it, like, really distilled each person's, like, point of view that they had already been talking about the whole film down to, like, what they had, like, yeah, it just distilled their whole viewpoints into, like, a single, single answer to a single question. And I do really, really, really. like the fact that he doesn't, it doesn't show him asking the questions. You only get the answers, right? So you kind of have to infer what the question is. Yeah, or you can hear him asking the questions, but you don't see him. Yeah, you don't see him. And like, yeah, I just, I, I really liked the way that he cut all of that together. It was, you know, like, oh, of course the neuroscience guys are going to go off on this, like, this kind of answer and the, you know, the cybersecurity guy is going to say this kind of thing that the internet of me. I really liked the way that he talked about that.

Yeah. It was really interesting, especially coming from a cybersecurity person. Like, I was like, like, I'm going to have to go back and rewatch that because like his hit him talking about how it makes, how it makes you, it's very egotistical. And that it like, yeah, I'm like, he was bitten. It was good. Yeah, it was good. So like, I'm going to be thinking about that's going to live rent free in my brain is really what it is. It's the internet of me. So. instead of the internet of things. Yeah. Yeah, like, I, that's the sort of like individualistic view of the internet and technology.

Like, yeah, all of these things are connected, but it's just for me. And it's like, this was something I talk about in the little digital garden paper I wrote in that, like, you know, digital gardens, the idea is this hypertext thing that Ted Nelson talks about, right? And how you can connect, like, your thoughts to the thoughts of other people. like through hypertext. But right now, digital gardens are siloed. A person can have their own thoughts and stuff linked, like, and have this little network.

But your digital garden is not in the same place as someone else is. And so you can't connect your stuff to someone else's right now. So it is this siloed, isolated, capitalistic thing, like capitalistic isolation instead of like a more socialist. Like, what actually happens when we think about like lowercase C communist like technology of actual connection instead of internet of me, right? And this capitalistic, eco-driven, like, isolation thing.

Can I get up on a soapbox for half of a second? Yes. And I've said this in the Discord, but I really liked, they talked to, I think his name was Sean Carpenter, who's a security person who he was basically the whistleblower on the San Medina lab, you know, basically this giant Chinese government attributed breach that happened is considered one of the, when it goes into this in that document, he considered basically, at least at that point in time, the biggest cybersecurity breach in history. But while they were talking to him and he was describing, because he couldn't talk about the actual incident, but he was describing sort of

the methods that people use to sort of get to what they want. Like I look at this conference itinerary and I find the guy that I want to target and then I find the guy who spoke before him and then send that guy in email or, you know, send him a fake email from that guy that he clicks and it opens a Trojan and that lets me into his computer and I start digging around. And then from there, I continue to branch out, right? That it's like he said it was like 95% of a hack is this research that you end up having to do, right? That still holds true today. But they kind of cut that, that interview of him describing that also with Kevin Mittnick sort of talking about how he did hacks and being like, oh, it was the gift of gab.

Like he talks about this whole huge hack that he did that was the trophy hack. And he literally did absolutely nothing technology related to get this code. He wanted this code base and he just like, it was a phone call. Phone called his way through it, right? So like, and talking about it as if it was like this adventure, right? The whole time Kevin Mettick's talking, he's talking about it like it was just this gay old adventure that happened to land him in federal president. I love it. You know, while I was a fugitive from the FBI, I was using, you know, Harry Houdini's real name because I thought I had a sense of humor and I'm just like, oh my God, yeah, yep, yep, that's Kevin Mittnick.

But like those two, I liked how those two things were kind of drawn together because it really sort of illustrates this, this idea that like cybersecurity and, you know, social engineering and hacking is this, this thing that's like, elevated above like the average person's understanding or grasp when really all that social engineering is is a fancy term for running a con. That's literally all Kevin Mnick did. He didn't have to touch technology. He just was a very good con man. And there have always been very good conman freed about Joseph Smith. Like, you know, they're like if Joseph Smith was alive today, he would be pulling that shit. Right. So like, sorry, ex-Morman moment. Ex-Morman moment. X-Morman Mormon moment. But like, and so when people talk about cybersecurity as if like, or like hacking as if it's just this absolutely inscrutable inhuman thing that just happens behind this like technology curtain, it's just like, I find it really interesting because it's like it's the white color way of saying you're a con man.

And if we started framing it that way in everyday conversations when we talk about cybersecurity and hacking and spam and, you know, fishing and all of these things, I feel like it could actually, like, turn a lot of the tide on what makes those things effective. You're not thinking about, you're not thinking about the fact that you're being conned because that is a personal, like, failure. You're thinking about the fact that you, you're being hacked. But like, I read this article recently where there's a journalist, this financial journalist handed $50,000 to a guy in a shoebox to a guy in the back of a cab. At the end of, at the end of, at the end of, her workday. And it started with a fake call from an Amazon representative, right? And ended with

her handing over her life savings to be kept safe because of an FBI, like a fake FBI investigation, right? And it all happened over the course of a day. Like, she was hacked, but really all it was was somebody had their social security number, had her social security number and then conned her all the way through that. Right. So people talk about being hacked, but it's not, it's not any different. Just like you can be conned into a religion, you can be conned into giving your money away, anything like that. So like, instead of being like cybersecurity is a series of checks and controls, it should be methods of being, like, being aware of the tactics that get used so you're more resistant to them altogether, whether or not it's through the frame of security or the frame of religion or any other frame that people get caught up in, you know, MLMs and shit. Okay. So, yeah, yeah, like, no, no, it's like the same reason why, like, how AI is not just a marketing term, it's a term that's meant to obisicate through intimidation.

Mm-hmm. Right? When you make something seem really complicated and technical and above what the lay person can understand, then the people who, oh, the people who do know about it who are super smart, super geniuses, they can get away with murder. Literally. Because, yeah, literally. And so, like, with cybersecurity, you're absolutely right. Like, I mean, yeah, there are some, like, advanced, you know, technical aspects, but literally sometimes it's just a phone call, right? Like, I think I mentioned this in a previous episode.

There's that one YouTube guy, like, Kit, I forget. I'll put in the comments, but he, his grandmother got scanned, like, with, like, an online, like, tech support, you know, a scam kind of thing. And so his whole thing is he does Twitch streams where he like will get a phone call from a scammer or we'll do, we'll find like an online tech support scam thing. And he will stream what that interaction is. And he will look up scripts and he will like fuck with the people. And he'll like do all kinds of stuff. And he will explain, oh, this person is doing this. This person is going to go into their developer tools and change the HTML of their screen to make it look like they did a certain thing.

And then he has these tools that will show that that's happening. Or like he'll tell people about like the more social engineering kind of like the types of questions that will be asked and like the script that's asked. Like sometimes people read us the script back at the like the people before they can say it. Like where a lot of it, yeah, some of it is tech, but a lot of it is just it's. social, right? And yeah, so it's, it's really interesting to watch him go through it. And it all goes back to like, you've been saying, Jay, it's, it's about connection. Yeah. More than it is about anything else. I got scammed one time. Yeah. Have I said this on air before? I don't know. Yeah, no. So back during the pandemic, the town that I used to

live in in New Hampshire had like a mutual aid spreadsheet, like some of the local lefties made like a mutual A, the Google sheet, where it's like, if you were willing to offer, like, hey, if someone could text you to ask for a car ride so they could get groceries, or if you had a bed to crash on, or like, that kind of thing, put your name in the spreadsheet. And I was like, yeah, I have an SUV. I used to live at the mountains. I'm sorry. Like, I have an SUV. I can help people get, you know, take them to go get groceries and shit, right? And I was working from home. Like, yeah, this is great. And nothing came from it for like a year until, like, I finally, someone actually did. was like, hey, I'm about to apply for a job and I need like money for this one specific thing. And you on this

list said that you were able to help monetarily because I had more like income then. And I was like, yeah, of course I'll help. But then I think scammers found that spreadsheet. And because I kept getting other texts from people and I thought it was the same person. And they kept asking for money for like diapers and for like formula and stuff. And I was like, yeah, of course. Like I, I, I have the money, so I will help you. Right. And then I realized that, like, they were being, like, calling me all of the time. Like, they would call me all of the time, and it would always be, like, a different number.

And I was like, why do you have a different phone number every time? And they were like, oh, it's, like, it's Google, like, the Google phone, like, call, like, number thing. And, like, they would, like, just harass me, basically when I wouldn't give them money right away. And that's when I started being like, wait, is this a, am I being scanned? And I asked, like, how did you get my number and my name and stuff? And they're like, from the insert town I used to live in here, like mutual aid spreadsheet. They, like they said, that's what it was from. And I was like, oh.

And so it made it really hard for me to realize that I was being scammed out of hundreds of dollars because people were saying, yes, I got your name and phone number from this. And so I thought that they were people who needed help. which I guess technically they were, but like, yeah, I was, it got to the point where I was getting harassed and called. And then sometimes every once in a while I'll still get a text message. It's like, hi, is this Jay? Can you help me? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And I felt stupid that my like, me wanting to help because I had the means to help people got taken advantage and it took me so long to realize it. So, I was just like too kind-hearted and not suspicious enough, I guess. That's how it works. Yeah.

Yeah, no, that's how it works. It was like, you know, like, oh, I know that this is a mutual aid thing and I want to help, right? You know, that's how they get you. The problem is L-Cat. What is that Power Puff Girls meme? The problem is L-Capital-E-Moe, where she's like smashing something, which never mind. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

That's from a different meme originally and then someone made it into PowerPuff Girls. Incredible. The final note I had was on like, so a kind of obvious missing part of this documentary is that there's no interview with Tim Berners-Lee who created the World Wide Web concept and everything. And he's not in this. I think Herzog wanted him to be, but for whatever reason he couldn't get him. He's mentioned like once. And like, because this is a movie about connection, like, I think. this shows the failed project, sadly, of linked open data, which Tim Bernersley came up with,

and how, like, Ted Nelson's idea of what a connected hypertextual internet is like, where it's these like literal connections between texts and ideas, and it's very human and organic, right? And then Tim Bernersley idea of linked open data with all of these URIs and how a, um, bunch of different concepts and different languages and whatnot. The computer would also know what they mean and they could link together. And that's like a great idea in theory, but what it's largely turned into. One is like, libraries aren't using it unless they're like paying for bib frame or whatever. Homoosaurus is linked data.

I will say that. We are actually linked data. But like, I think I mentioned I want to write a paper about this eventually when my brain is not broken anymore and I can get back into writing about how linked data largely now is this sort of like reverse tower of babble and that it's trying to take everything and it like is almost prioritizing the way that the computer understands it and minimizing like all of the complexity of human language and communication into this almost like divine language that like ignores context and connotation and affect and emotion and all of that.

Like, yeah, you could take these two words from these different languages and show that they mean the same thing. But instead of this being like organic and messy, like, because I always think about like my ideal link data is not exact to exact, but fuzzy matching, right, to show how things are similar instead of how things are exact. But now it's, it's very reductive. And so I find it interesting that the linked data that is not in this movie. But hypertext to Nelson is Project Xanato's in this movie, which is also a failed project, sadly.

But the digital garden people are trying to bring that back, but also the digital garden space and like online note taking and everything has largely been taken over by the like Silicon Valley entrepreneur people and like the productivity people. Which makes me sad because this is technology that has such revolutionary potential, but it's just existing in capitalism and being eaten by it. And it makes it really gross. I hate it. So what do you all think of link data? Well, I mean, it's the solution to the problem of teaching a computer to actually understand what humans are telling it. But could it fall in love? Probably needs language first. I feel like Ted Nelson's internet. I feel like Ted Nelson's internet, a computer could fall in love, but I don't know if linked open data, a computer could fall in love.

I feel like linked data, it feels so cold to me. Yeah. Well, I feel like the approach has always been make everything full text and then use transformers to understand how language is connected to each other, which is just computers creating algorithms to understand the information rather than people ever hard-coding the relationships of the information into it. So that's why AI has all these biases, because no one even trains the data, really. It trains itself. Well, no, people wrote the algorithms. That's where the bias comes from.

And people wrote the data that's being analyzed. I dislike this like the computers are training themselves or writing themselves. It's like, no, they're doing that because a person wrote an algorithm and a person wrote data. Right. But the algorithms are also algorithmically generated. So if you want to understand why the, like a GPT is making a certain association, you actually have to reverse engineer what it was trying to do, which is why it's hard to figure out what the, why it makes the connections it makes because no one ever taught it how to actually make connections. Right, because the original algorithm that a person wrote. Yeah. Well, it just, it just brute forces the whole project instead of putting in the labor that needed to be put in. Yeah. Sadie,

you're making a face. I was just thinking about the term brute force and it's various uses. I had gone on a tangent in my own brain that wasn't. You weren't thinking about linked data at all. To be completely honest, I don't understand a single thing about linked data. Like, you would have to like seriously, like, I kind of understand it. But like, we should probably just an entire episode of just J and Justin explain linked data to Sadie. Like a really good way of visualizing it is wiki data, which is one of the wiki projects. where there's like, like, link data is like human readable and understandable, but a computer

doesn't know what a word means, but then you get a URI, it's like a string of numbers or something. And like, you assign that to a word or something. And so the computer knows to associate those two things together. And then so you could say like Apple and maybe it's URI as like one, two, And you can say Apple is an example of a fruit, which has its own URI. And so a person, it's human readable and understandable. But then there's like a computer understandable, hard-coded relationship as well. So if another thing has the aspect of is a fruit, then like that, and then like fruit would have its own URI and that relationship would have its own URI.

So in Wikidata, I have a wiki data page. And it's JL insert last name here. And it has my picture and it has a bunch of stuff about me. But then you look and I also have a property that's like Q, something, something, something. And that's what the computer knows. And so then you can take all this data and put it, it's like it's structured. So you can like query it in a database, right? And so a computer knows what it means and a person knows what it means.

Okay. So like two words in different languages can have the same URI. I kind of because they're like meaning the same thing would be another thing. Like if these two words have the same meaning, the computer then knows that these two words are the same. They might just have like a different attribute for what language they are, but they mean the same concept. How this works on the internet is kind of beyond what I understand.

But if you use Google search, the little info boxes that show up, like if you Google like a movie and then it brings up like the movie. and then it's like rotten tomatoes score and like if it's in a library and buy it on Amazon like all of that is because of link data like if you go to library conferences and there'll be demos from the company that took over bib frame from the library of Congress or whatever where they will implement bib frame in your library and so that your library's collections are now findable on the internet and so then it'll like show up or whatever like because like bib frame is just library cataloging with link data in it so that then like it's structured in a way that

the internet understands. So yeah, Johnny would be way better at explaining this than me. And Johnny is probably listening and going, no, you're forgetting all of these cool things or you're not understanding this. Okay. So have Johnny and Jay and Justin. Like, let's get them back on. Yeah. So like, that's why I was confused at this movie about internet and connection doesn't talk about link data.

Data. Yeah. They just talk about hypertext. I love hypertext. Link data is very hidden from people. Yeah. Like most cataloging work, it makes itself invisible. Whereas hypertext is like in your face. And it's participatory as well. Hypertext also involves like you doing it too. So I've talked a lot. Yeah. Do y'all have any other final thoughts? Recommend to me another Herzog movie. Documentary or fiction? Yeah. Documentary? I mean, Grizzly man is honestly really. really good. But he also did this one where the Green Ant Stream, that's about,

Horror Vanguard does an episode about it, where it's about like this like Aboriginal thing in Australia and like their like apocalypse myth or something and like a court case or something. I actually haven't seen it, but it sounds really cool. There's also one where he is filming like from an aerial above of all these fires after this one like genocide. or something and the way he's framing it is like another planet almost. He's showing how alien and catastrophic it is, like the way he's talking about it. Okay. Yeah.

He's very cool. He's also got a great sense of humor to feel like people don't see. As far as his fiction movies, his version of Nosferatu is really good. TBH. It's like, it slaps. The Year of the God is good. Fitzcaraldo is about a guy who wanted to build an opera house in like this. jungle and it's very like

megalomaniate like the production of it was fucking crazy no one died but like a guy had to amputate his foot with a chainsaw and like a guy got bit by a snake and like no one died but some shit happened. It's very like

heart of darkness. Yeah a bunch of shit happens to Herzog and he's like I actually don't like when things go wrong they just always seem to I'm like my man It's because you keep trying to make movies in the fucking Amazon That'll do it He's made like two movies in the Amazon

Like dude Yeah He also made a movie with Nick Cage Called Bad Lieutenant Oh my God He did Bad Lieutenant Yeah okay He did Bat Lieutenant

I haven't seen it but I have heard It's so I don't like fucking left field It's like hair side This is super serious grisly man, like, you're the wrath of God. And he just fucking badly did it. He was also with, you know, the Mandalorian. He was in, I think, family guy. He's done like, yeah, he's been in some, like, he was in the boondock for an episode.

Yeah, he rules. Everyone, oh, and also he's directed some operas. People should watch some opera. It's pretty cool. I like that he likes opera. It makes me happy. He's just like me for real. Everyone go watch this.

It's good. All right. Good night.