Life Uncut - American Nightmare. The Truth About the Wrongfully Labelled "Real Life Gone Girl". Uncut with Denise Huskins

Episode Date: March 5, 2024

We are so grateful to have been able to speak with Denise Huskins.Far too often victims of assault are not believed. The story of what happened with Denise's kidnapping and assault is harrowing. However, in this chat Denise articulates that what happened next from law enforcement, the media and the public was worse.  In March 2015, in Vallejo, CA, Denise Huskins and her boyfriend Aaron Quinn awoke from a sound sleep when armed men bound and drugged them, and then abducted Denise. Aaron was warned not to call the police, or else Denise would be killed. Aaron trusted law enforcement and called the police to try and find Denise. But instead of searching for Denise, the police accused Aaron of her murder. They said that his story was just unbelievable. When Denise was released alive, the police turned their fire on her, dubbing her the "real-life 'Gone Girl'" who had faked her own kidnapping. In this chat Denise answers so many of our questions like: Why were you and Aaron targeted? If law enforcement thought your statements were too inconsistent and unreliable to believe you, then why were you later seen as a reliable witness in court?  Why have the other kidnappers not been pursued and prosecuted?  Did the police ever take accountability for their mistakes? We speak about Denise and Aaron having to decide whether to speak out publicly to clear their names of creating a hoax kidnapping OR be used as witnesses in court to help prosecute Matthew Muller.  We also discuss how Denise and Aaron were able to help each other heal and went on to get married and have two beautiful daughters. Denise is remarkably resilient. You can watch "American Nightmare' on Netflix or read Denise and Aaron's book here. Please note that this episode discusses violent and sexual assault. If you are listening from Australia, you can find free help by calling 1800-RESPECT.    If you enjoyed this episode, you might like some others that we recorded with two of the wonderful women from The Tinder SwindlerYou might also like the episode that we recorded with Kayla Laws from the Netflix Docu series Is Anybody Up?   You can watch us on Youtube If you have an question please send it on it to life uncut podcast on InstagramJoin us on tiktok Or join the Facebook Discussion Group Tell your mum, tell your dad, tell your dog, tell your friend and share the love because WE LOVE LOVE! xxSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Life Uncut acknowledges the traditional custodians of country whose lands were never ceded. We pay our respects to their elders past and present. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. This episode was recorded on Darug Walamutta land. Hi guys and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Brittany. And I'm producer Keisha, filling in for our girl Laura today, because unfortunately she's feeling really unwell, but my word. Wow. Today's episode, excited might be the wrong word, but I am really excited to bring it

to you. And one, it's for a selfish reason. I watched American Nightmare along with the other 50 million people that have streamed American Nightmare on Netflix, and I just knew that I wanted to help Denise tell her story. but this is truly one of the most harrowing and unbelievable and gobsmacking stories I have seen in a really really long time like I just said there's one part that was completely selfish I wanted answers to the questions that I was left with and I know so many people were

left with those questions yeah so if you haven't seen the docuseries or read their book a victim f from crime victims to suspects to survivors we'll give you a little bit of a recap so that you can kind of get your head around what we're about to talk about. In March of 2015 in Vallejo Denise and her at the time boyfriend Aaron they were both asleep when they were woken up by some armed men who bound and drugged them. These men then abducted Denise and told Aaron that he was not to call the police. Or they would kill her. Yeah they threatened that they would harm at the very least Denise. And can you imagine that feeling of being a partner who I mean both of them right and we speak about this but one of you has just seen your loved one be kidnapped and all you want

to do is help them but you can't because it could kill them and the same thing goes for Denise who's been kidnapped is if she does anything and tries to save herself then something will happen to him I can't fathom that feeling yeah I can't imagine having to make that decision and I mean Aaron at the time trusted law enforcement and he trusted that they would do the right thing and go searching for denise but that is not what happened aaron initially was accused of murdering denise they also said that his story was just too unbelievable to believe so they did not even look for denise and look for the people that kidnapped her which is the part for me that left me with so much anger 48 hours later denise turns up and she is dubbed the real life gone girl so to give you an idea

of timing the movie Gone Girl had come out the year before and she was accused alongside Aaron with creating this hoax kidnapping. The reasons for that were not particularly clear in the media but essentially they were making up that Denise and Aaron had concocted this plan for attention of some type. And then we see the same thing happen again with the police with what happened to Aaron to Denise. Aaron has come forward said please help my partner's been kidnapped they've said bullshit then she turns up and she corroborates his story she's like I have been kidnapped and they say lo and behold bullshit like the victim blaming straight out of the gate on this is like nothing I have ever seen before but it did leave us with quite a few questions because what we saw

in the docuseries was that initially they weren't believed and for so long they weren't believed but then later on they were used as witnesses in court to prosecute the men who had kidnapped Denise and I had I was just like how does that make sense you know did people come forward and do they apologize for the fact that they got so many things so wrong which is a question that we did ask Denise yeah and then some of the other big questions uh why was Denise and Aaron the ones that were targeted Denise specifically why was she the one that was kidnapped why have the other kidnappers not ever been pursued or prosecuted because only one person was ever convicted did the police ever take any accountability for their mistakes we cover a lot of questions that I know you guys

would have had when you finish the docuseries yourself and a beautiful part of it I think is what happens afterwards and how Aaron and Denise in fact got through such a tumultuous and traumatic time to become stronger than ever because I know that is a question that a lot of people would have at the end of the day the Netflix docuseries was incredible it was incredibly done it was by the producers of the tinder swindler i love the fact that they focus on the victims but netflix always have a limit and rules and boundaries on exactly what you can and can't talk about and say and this did happen in some capacity with the docuseries with denise and aaron what they felt like they were allowed to include denise goes on to tell us that some of the things she wanted to talk about

were omitted and she agreed to that at the time but the wonderful thing about podcasting is it is a free space for you to talk about anything you want to, and we feel really honoured that Denise trusted us with this. We hope you get as much out of this chat as we did. Denise, welcome to Life Uncut. I'm so excited to have you today. Thank you for having me. Denise, we start every episode of this podcast by asking you what your most embarrassing story is. We call it an accidentally unfiltered. Do you have an embarrassing story? It also feels strange to ask you that with the premise of this episode, but also everyone

has an embarrassing story. Right. Well, my initial reaction was, is being publicly called gone girl, not enough. Right? When you said that in email, I was like, she has a really good sense of humor. Well, yeah. And humor is a really important thing when you're overcoming trauma and tragedy. And it's something I think initially you don't expect. But I mean, when you're going through the worst moments of your life it all gets so heavy that you need levity you need like a moment of reprieve and just even making a stupid silly joke can be enough just to like lighten the mood so how does it feel now because I'm sure it's one thing to have had the world know your story

when it happened and for it to be written about but I'm sure it's another feeling for it to be really out there again, you personally telling your story on such a humongous platform. How are you feeling now that the world has seen that? Oh, there's a lot of mixed emotions and it hit the both of us harder than I think we realized, you know, in preparation, the team at Netflix is like, you know, how are you doing? It can be quite overwhelming when it hits 190 countries in a day and millions and millions of views and you know you're going into it trying to prepare mentally but there's no way to prepare and it's tough because there was such a positive reception from so many people all over the world you know I can't even count how many messages we've gotten

and so it should be really positive but I think there's also you know the public exposure right after the kidnapping was so intertwined with those two days of captivity of, am I going to get out of this alive? So internally, my body just processes it as a life or death situation. And so the past month and a half since it's been out, there's just a lot of that deep pain and processing and feeling of sickness and anxiety. It's been a challenge to process through it, But at the same time, it's the reception of it that it got number one that I mean, the messages, the overall meetings that we were hoping that people would walk away with are definitely hitting very hard. And so it's reassuring and really leaves me hopeful because it's clear that the audience is really receptive of, you know, how victims are treated, victim blaming. A lot of people can connect to big parts of what we went through.

And so so, yeah, it's it's a mixed bag. Oh, that was one thing I did want to ask you is what were your key hopes to get out of filming this documentary? Well, you know, everyone focused initially and still kind of does about the sensational aspects of the kidnapping and, you know, the elaborate pieces of it, you know, all the reasons why they said they didn't believe it, you know, who the kidnappers writing emails in defense of us and all the links that they went through during the home invasion. And for us, though, the aftermath of the kidnapping, being received the way that we were by law enforcement, by the media, by the public, the rush to judgment, the victim blaming, the shame,

all of that was even more devastating than the actual crime itself. Because you can kind of understand that there's people out there who are motivated to terrorize and cause harm, But there's still that hope that there are people to turn to that are there to help. And we turned to those people and they just made everything worse and they attacked us. And that was really difficult to comprehend. And then by saying the hoax claims destroyed our reputations, anything of value in our life that we wanted to return to after overcoming a life or death situation was taken from us. So the things that gave us meaning, you know, we were lost. And even as time has gone since then, hearing from other survivors and them saying that they were treated that way when they went to police and the false accusations and confirmation bias, the realization of how common that is, is really devastating and reason why we feel like it's really important to keep sharing. Denise when the docu-series first came out on Netflix we actually spoke about it in the podcast

and the conversation we had was how I think in the last couple of years we've predominantly seen this switch in policing of police and I think that that's because there are now media companies that are willing to hold them accountable and that's something that we didn't have access to before we had social media and before there were companies like Netflix investigating this type of thing. You guys released a book in 2021. More people know the reality of the story. Does it kind of counter this narrative that the media portrayed? Or do you still feel as though you have to kind of prove yourself and prove that you were telling the truth the entire time? It's gotten better. There's more people who believe us, believe in us, are interested in

the truth. And, you know, the reason why law enforcement can go out and publicly make a statement, people believe in the police, and they do it quickly to implant that narrative. And then it's really hard for people to forget about that and let that go. And so there's still, I mean, there's definitely still people within the Vallejo Police Department who are involved in the investigation of our kidnapping who don't believe us still, and still think that we're somehow involved, which is insane considering the evidence that they have. There's still people in the public who don't believe in it, don't want to believe in it. And there is also a lot of pressure in speaking publicly. Again, initially, anything I did or said was under a microscope,

picked apart. If I was too emotional, then I'm faking it. If I'm not emotional, then it didn't really happen. I mean, there was a no-win situation. And so speaking to law enforcement, giving them every detail, there's too many details, there's not enough details. So that I think is still very much something that I battle with and the pressure performing the way that people expect. And then even, you know, writing a book and doing a docu-series, there's also, you know, a big publishing company or co-author, there's the network, the producers, the whole teams involved, putting money into it to make this happen. And so there's still that pressure of like not wanting to let them down. Or if I don't, again, if I don't sit

there and perform in the way that they think will be entertaining for the audience or emotional enough or whatever then I'm letting everyone else down and there's yeah certainly a lot of that. You did say something a little bit earlier that I just wanted to go back to because I feel like it's extremely important we brushed over it a bit but you said that the aftermath and people's responses including the police but the general public as well was far worse than a kidnapping and two days of sexual assault and thinking that you're going to die and I want people to think about that for a second because you're saying people harassing you on online and on the news and not believing you it was worse which I completely believe you but I think that is

crazy that people don't realize the harm in their words online I do want to go back a little bit if we can just to your relationship with Aaron how you guys met how long were you together before this happened? Yeah, we met, I was in Vallejo for a physical therapy residency at the hospital Kaiser. There's an amazing program to specialize in working with patients with neurological disorders. And he worked there and, you know, we interacted socially and professionally, like in group settings. And we just always kept gravitating towards one another. There was just something, an instant connection. He had just been going through, was still going through this breakup with his ex-fiance who also worked with us. So it was initially one of those,

do I even go there? Do I, you know, it wasn't the ideal situation, but in the end, our connection, And, you know, we couldn't deny it. So we were dating for about seven months before the kidnapping. And yeah, I mean, it was, again, it was a really complicated situation, but we instantly fell in love. And there'd be moments where we're like, okay, maybe we need to take a break so he could process through this a little bit. And we would like take a break for a day or two and then, you know, reconnect.

Love is love when it's there. you can't deny it. Laura, who usually hosts this podcast is the biggest believer that you can heal within relationships. You know, it's not this binary process where you have to be whole before you enter. Totally. For those people that haven't seen the documentary yet, I know that they 100% will, but can you take us back to the night that it happened and what you remember? When did you realize that there was somebody in the house? Was it, did you hear something from downstairs or another room or was it until you were, you were literally someone standing over your bed? What did that look like? Well, no, I mean, Aaron and I, we had an emotional evening before we went to

bed. We were at a crossroads in our relationship and trying to figure out, you know, do we move forward? Can we make this work? And ultimately we decided, yes, we can. And so we were emotionally exhausted, went to bed around midnight and it was about 3 a.m. when I was woken from a deep sleep to where I, I was convinced that I was still dreaming that it was a nightmare, but I kept hearing a voice relentlessly saying, wake up, this is a robbery. We're not here to hurt you. And I think as soon as I realized that it was reality and not, and not actually a dream, you know, my eyes shot open, my body froze. I could see a flashing white light against the wall and red laser dots crossing the wall and over our bodies. And the voice just kept speaking.

And I realized we're surrounded, they have guns, like people are here, this is real. And, you know, there wasn't really a chance to, to react. I mean, it was really like paralyzed in sleep, and then instantly realizing what was happening. And the voice just kept speaking and gave instructions and told me to tie up Aaron and he dropped zip ties at the edge of the bed and he talked me through tying up Aaron's hands behind his back and his feet together and I didn't think about screaming because I felt like if I did that they had guns they would shoot us instantly it was designed to make us defenseless and and then it just got worse and worse from there these people and the voices were they in the room or was a voice coming from outside and giving you instructions

no it was in the room he had a large master bedroom but it was still pretty vacant you know he had a big bed and two like bedside tables and one armchair in the corner but it was a pretty big open space so two of them were on the corner of the bed closest to aaron i remember when i was watching your story on Netflix and the one question that I had the entire way was there are multiple people involved here yeah so where the hell are they where the fuck are they well yeah you know Britt and I spoke about whether like you said it was very elaborate it was very planned was there a way to fake the amount of people in the room or have voice recordings or something like that and I keep coming back to this idea that I was like no they weren't drugged at this

point you know you would be highly aware if there was more than one person in the room and yet still to this day there have not been multiple people pursued not that they haven't even been looked for and that's something that's like part of the gaslighting even after muller's caught and beyond of well you know they found a blow-up doll in his car and thought okay that's what they saw and there was pre-recorded messages that were played for us blacked out swim goggles were put over our eyes and then headphones and it was connected to something with these pre-recorded messages with like a dubbed over voice giving instruction again kind of in like a robotic way saying like be calm we aren't here to hurt you we're here for financial

gain and then saying that a medic would come and take my our blood pressure that we would be given sedatives. So later the FBI found those recordings and claim that that was part of what he did to fool us to believe that there was other people. But just because we listened to the recordings doesn't mean that that's why we thought that there was more people. I saw two people standing at the edge of the bed. My head was down, but the two people standing wasn't a blow-up doll. they were moving. We heard when we were upstairs in the bedroom closet, we could hear people downstairs on opposite ends of the house. It was like a 2,400 square foot house. So it was a large home. And so they were on opposite ends of the downstairs. One was going through the drawers.

Another one was using a drill that we were assuming that they were putting later, putting up the camera to monitor Aaron. The one person who spoke, which we know is now Matthew Moeller, He was upstairs in the bathroom next to us. And there's like someone walked past as he was guiding me to the next room. Like you can't deny movement of somebody else. There's no way to replicate that. There was also tasers that would be snapped from the opposite side of the room as a threat, which we took that okay. And then even in one of the recordings, they said, if you don't comply, we will cut your partner's face or give electric shock. So, yeah, I mean, I could go on and on about other things that when I was in captivity, he said the others were coming to the house. A different truck pulled up to the house. I was taken in what we now know is a Mustang, but I assumed it was a Mustang with how it sounded. So it was a very different car.

You know, I could hear the doors open and close. I heard whispering in the next room. So the blow up doll and the recordings don't, they don't answer all of those things. And the frustrating thing is, is they went from one conclusion to another that was wrong. You know, Aaron murdered me. Then I show up alive and it's a hoax. And then they catch this one guy and he did it by himself. And it was all very, like, it was really early on when I spoke to one of the FBI agents and he said, I'm 98% sure he did it by himself. And they hadn't even gone through all of his electronic devices. So I was like, dude, can you, and I even said this to him, I'm like, I really please approach this objectively and with an open mind, because we know that there was more people involved.

and it just everything we've seen since then doesn't seem like they've actually taken that seriously well when they're like he's like oh i'm 98 sure he's alone you're like great mate i'm 100 sure he wasn't so seen as though i was the one there well that was the other thing because the one agent with the conflict of interest david sesma he questioned me the second day when i went in for questioning by law enforcement and i was with my attorney and at the end of it he had told me, you know, are you sure that there are anything that you don't want to change? It's a felony to lie to a federal agent. And then he told my lawyer off in the next room, you know, I'm 99% sure she's lying. Have you seen the movie Gone Girl? And so when later they're telling me,

I'm 98% sure he did it by himself. I'm like, okay, cool, bro. Like last time you were 99% sure and you were 100% wrong. So can we forget about this percentage? I held my tongue, but trying not to cuss to an agent, but it's like, please enough with this percentage stuff, like keep an open mind. It's such patronizing language. I mean, we all have this inbuilt evolutionary sense. It's an instinctual sense that when we were in a position where we could literally die, your senses are heightened. Your sympathetic nervous system goes into overdrive. It's like that thing when you're somewhere alone at night in the dark and you can feel when there is someone around you.

Yes. When you were initially taken, Denise, you were taken into a car and you were driven away. What do you remember from that time? Well, when he put me in the trunk of the car and the door closed, the air was thinner and instantly I was afraid that I would suffocate. And I was thinking, I mean, these people fucking stupid, I'm going to die in here, you know, but then, you know, I knew I was starting to panic. I kept thinking, you know, something goes wrong, they could just stop at the side of the road and burn the car and thinking of like, what that would be like to be burned alive. And, you know, your mind just races with all the possibilities of the horror that you could face. And so I mean, I just like I'm a physical therapist and I have talked and trained people with breathing techniques. And so I'm just sitting there trying to just focus on my breath, try to not let myself go to those places, you know, because of course, like instantly just even waking up to a voice speaking like you were saying, you know, everything in your body says like react, do something.

But then the logical side of you is going, well, no, if you do that, you could be hurt, you could be killed. And it's not just me, but my actions could hurt or kill the person that I love. I felt too, like the whole 48 hours, if I let myself go too far, like I was just on the edge of losing my mind, like not being able to hold it together. And I needed, I knew that I might not be able to physically fight or scream right now. but I need to pay attention, control my reaction and get as much information as possible because there might be something here that gets me out of this alive. It's right what you said,

that it's not just you. And it's so easy now to think of you in that car on the way to your captivity. But then when we think back to where Aaron is, he's doing the same thing. He thinks that he can't move and all he wants to do is help you back at home, but he can't move because if he does you could die well initially we were given sedatives that i think for some reason i it seems for like a lot of people especially in the media and reporting don't get how powerful sedatives can be and what they what it actually does i mean he was completely knocked out he was passed out unconscious for hours and i was too when i was in the trunk of the car like I was trying to like stay calm and pay attention to like which way

am I turning or what does this sound like but eventually you know I couldn't fight the the weight of the sedatives and that was the same for him and so eventually when it started wearing off I think maybe it was around like 11 a.m or noon and that's when he realized like okay I'm gonna have to start doing something they're gonna ask me to do things they were telling him they were going to communicate through his phone and messages and text messages. And they had a camera pointing at him. And so he thought that they were monitoring him. And so, you know, I mean, he, he was really just trying to like, be present, because he knew he needed to save me. But then he started realizing the camera wasn't working, it was making this noise. And so he thought like, okay, maybe they

and he was responding to some of the messages, and he wasn't getting an immediate response back. And he thought, well, if they see me, can't they see that I'm responding? So that's when he started kind of going, okay, maybe they don't have full view of me. Maybe there's a chance that I could reach out. And he thought, cause he was told they had tracking, they were monitoring his phone. So he thought, okay, I can't call 911. But if I call my brother, who's an FBI agent, then I could just tell them, you know, some story that, you know, we were supposed to meet. And so I was trying to cancel or whatever. But he he eventually got in contact with his brother and his brother said, you need to call 9-1-1 immediately. And that's when he realized, like, OK, I do. But that decision for him was the hardest. like to make that I don't know I don't I don't think I'd want to trade places like yes I was

in captivity and I was raped and I thought I was gonna die but like to be in a position where a decision you're making could lead to someone else being killed the woman you love is um yeah like he knew he would be safe if he called the police but he thought he could be killing me but he believed in law enforcement and believed that they would help and so he he yeah he he called and sadly it made everything worse. Denise I can imagine that a question that the two of you have wondered for a long time is why us? Why me? Why did this have to happen to us? Have you ever got clarity on why you were targeted uh no i'm not sure if i'll ever know there was the reasoning that was given by the kidnappers you know moeller who's the one speaking to us

who held me captive who raped me he he explained to aaron separately and me separately and then also it was in the pre-recorded messages that this was a mission intended to target his ex. And he said her first and last name and her name was in the pre-recorded messages that were played for Aaron saying like, I'm going to take, I'm going to take Andrea and you're going to, you know, and gave the instruction. And, and he told me when I was in captivity, this was meant for her. I got the wrong intel. You saw a mail with her name on it and an engagement card of theirs, but this was months ago. And it was my fault. And even after I was released and then the police went on national news to say that it was a hoax, the next day police and media were

getting emails from the kidnappers saying, it's not a hoax. We did it. Trying to get credit for what they had done and said, again, in the emails, this was a mistake. It wasn't intended for Denise. It was intended for Andrea and continued with that. And so that's another thing that's been frustrating. I don't know if that aspect has been fully evaluated. And what made it worse is we found out later that the lead agent in charge of investigating the kidnapping, the one who told my attorney that he thought I was gone, girl, had had a prior relationship with Aaron's ex. And it overlapped when Aaron and her started dating. So he definitely knew who Aaron was. And he didn't question Aaron, he questioned me. And so it feels like the

significance of her being the main target was diminished to potentially diminish the significance of his conflict of interest what do you and Aaron make of that situation because of course that could be just one of the most wild coincidences but to a viewer I know how I felt I felt like there's no way all these dots could have aligned like it just felt like there was a connection that was being missed what do you guys think i mean there's so much of everything we've gone through that is so hard to believe that you know it very much could be that law enforcement with their egos had their confirmation biased and the lead agent just thought okay this is going to be a big case And I'm going to be on it despite me knowing, you know, Andrea and Aaron, and I'm just going to stay on it because this could help boost my career.

And so, I mean, it really could just be a series of coincidences. I'd love to know a little bit about, and I don't quite know how to ask this question because it's so contradictory, but those few days that you were in captivity, it almost looked like in a way he was being polite. And I don't know how to say it because you can't be polite when you've just kidnapped and are about to rape somebody. but what I mean by that for the people that haven't seen it and I hope you can expand on this Denise is it just seems like he was like I'm really sorry that I'm about to rape you you know like and I'm sorry that this has to happen and that doesn't make sense to me because I'm like well if you're sorry you're not going to do it what was his demeanor like to you over those few days yeah from the beginning he was the pseudo remorse the politeness I mean instantly

from the instructions of having me tie up Aaron as I'm trying to tighten the zip ties. You know, my hands are shaking. I'm overwhelmed. I'm afraid that I'm not going to be doing it properly or fast enough. And it's almost as if he was reading my mind because he would say, you're doing a good job. You are staying calm. He so threw out from the beginning, even when he said that this wasn't intended for you. And I'm sorry, we got to the location he held me captive in. And as he walked me inside, he says, you know, I don't want to dehumanize you anymore than I have to. So I will let you use the restroom by yourself, knock on the door when you're done. Pretty quickly, I realized it was just a form of manipulation. And he was trying to condition me if he could

show me that he's not going to be aggressively violent, then maybe I won't be either. And it became almost like this game of like equate it to like this just horrible game of chess where I don't know the rules. He's in charge of the rules. They constantly change. And if I lose, I'm dead. But I still have to play. I still have to figure this out. And it's like he's doing all of this. Clearly, you don't choose to do a kidnapping and follow through with rapes if you don't have some pleasure out of it and some motivation to cause harm and to terrorize someone. So I think some of it wasn't just to manipulate me, but also to manipulate himself, to convince himself, I'm not all that bad. So I have to do this. And he continuously drugged me. It's

protocol I have to do this but yeah it's all bullshit because if you if you really do feel bad just stop just be done with it release me so yeah and even with the the emails that were sent later on it was like you know we can't see like yes we caused them harm but we can't see two innocent victims be shown this way publicly like we did it here's evidence to show that we did it So, you know, I think everyone tries to be the hero of their own story. And so it's like he created this huge mess and terrorized people. But then he's like, oh, I'm going to be the hero and make it better. Even the rape was a form of manipulation in itself and control, I guess, by saying that he had filmed it.

And that would go out to whomever to see if you did anything wrong. It's like micro manipulation within a larger world of manipulation. Right. And after the first rape, when I hadn't fought back, he took me to the bathroom and he said, well, now you can take off the goggles when you're in a room alone. Here's some toiletries, take a shower. Or, you know, and I pulled up the blindfold and I saw just like this array of like, you know, shampoo and conditioner and a toothbrush and just all this stuff. And I'm like, he's rewarding me for my good behavior. I was a good girl. And but then at the same time, there's always that threat. Like if you don't, like you don't want to know what's going to happen.

Did that type of mentality continue throughout the entire time that you interacted with him? And I mean, more so in the court case when he was being prosecuted. Did that narrative shift or do you think he still was trying to convince himself that this was something he had to do? No, well, when he was caught and in custody and the detective Alameda Sheriff's Department for the Dublin case where he attacked another family and he left his personal cell phone And they were able to find him. And there was one detective who, when they arrested him, was like, there's something wrong here. There's more to this. I think there's another victim. She found goggles with the blonde hair. Her victims didn't have blonde hair. And so she's like, I need to find out who this other victim is. Once they were able to link and connect the cases, there was overwhelming amounts of evidence that showed that he kidnapped me, held me captive. Later, they found the recordings of the rapes. So there was absolutely no way he could get out of it. He was absolutely guilty for doing it.

so his only defense to say he was not guilty was to say that he was mentally unwell that and he claimed that he has bipolar disorder and then he was in a manic state and delusional etc etc and i mean to us it's like well of course you're gonna say that you're you know mentally unwell or insane and and you can't claim that you're mentally insane if you plotted and planned this kidnapping with a group of people, you know, for half of a year. So I'm not surprised that he went that route. But that's the route that he he went on. And so he was very strategic when he did interviews with media later, like I'm, you know, I'm saying I'm not guilty. And there's the law, he's a Harvard trained lawyer. So he knows what he's doing. I have no doubt that he's probably

struggled mentally. And I felt that when I was in captivity. And that was part of my defense. I thought, okay, I could feel from him that because he kept wanting to talk to me and tell me that he had PTSD. I was in the military. This is the only way I can earn a living. So I kind of would turn to him and listen. And he wanted to talk. So okay, I'm going to be your therapist you know just trying to build a rapport trying to connect with him as a human because I thought that might be the only way to get me out alive and I think yeah it felt very much too like if I provoked him I antagonized him it might fit the narrative that he had or maybe of a past experience and would take out whatever that was on me. So I wanted to make sure I didn't push him

over the edge and kind of handled him with care and showed him too, that he could trust me to not react, not fight. So then maybe it could show him that he could release me and I would still be compliant. And what were his actions and what was the dialogue around the time that he decided to let you go the time he decided to drive you back to your parents house do you remember was there a point that you think he switched was there something that you said was something that he said he maintained from the beginning this was intended for andrea this we were hired from by an outside person it's we're going to hold you for 48 hours and then we're going to release you and it was always that because i would say to him anytime he was there i'm like i don't i know you're going to

kill me. I know you're going to, I know you are. And he would say, no, I'm not. That's not what I'm, you know, that's not what we're in this for. We're a startup companies to show people. So even if there is media coverage, it's actually good PR for us because it shows that we can complete these things and not kill and not overreact and, and kill the victim that we can follow through. And so he kept saying 48 hours, 48 hours, and he wasn't beating me or really physically being violent. He raped me. But I kept thinking, okay, like, I'm going to wait this out. But I knew if that 48 hours came and went, and he made up some excuse, any excuse not to release me, then I knew that I would have to switch gears and figure out how not to take the sedative. and somehow find a way to fight back. But sure enough, he woke me up in the middle of the night and said, okay, we're going to go.

He had said that he couldn't release me in the Bay Area because police were looking for me. He said that he wanted to release me to where I could get to my family. So I told him where I grew up and we decided on a crossroads that was, I didn't want him to know exactly where my parents lived but it was on my driver's license and he had my purse so it was like I can't

really lie to him but it was a little less than a mile from my mom's house and so he and even in the car I wasn't sure if if he just kept saying this just to to keep me compliant and calm and there's one moment where he stopped at a rest stop to say I could go to the bathroom and I realized, oh my God, it's dead quiet. Like this is where he's going to kill me. And he opened a door and I was alone in a like campsite bathroom. And I thought, holy shit, he really is going to release me. Like, I, you know, I was in shock and disbelief and at all. And yeah. And I even too, it was like, he's just telling me he's going to release me near my, my family's house. And when he drove off and I peeled off I had tape over my eyes I peeled off the tape and I started

walking down the street and I saw that I was in my neighborhood and that's when it just finally sunk in like it I mean he followed through Denise what was the media coverage up until that point and at what point did it switch to we thought it was Aaron now this is the real life gone girl well I didn't see the media at the time and I didn't even right after the kidnapping I think I saw Nancy Grace's piece and I was like I can't I can't watch this shit yeah and even my family's like don't read the comments don't you know so I really didn't pay attention but you know later looking back pretty quickly almost immediately it was why did the boyfriend wait whatever 11 hours to call and even then my dad was asked that question and I was still

missing and my dad had no idea what was happening to me and the one person who should be the most irrational and hysterical said well maybe he was tied up maybe he was drugged and it's like if like my dad can come up with that and law enforcement and the media can't it's kind of maddening i think then because i was forced to record a proof of life to verify that i was alive the day that i was alive because i had to give a current event and a personal fact about me and the media would say it was like wow she's really calm again not realizing that i'm sedated heavily my family couldn't recognize me aaron it's like she's scared but everyone else's interpretation is like whoa she's too calm henry lee the reporter who was on the netflix series again in the series

goes it sounds like she's ordering off a menu like fucking kidding me like what the yeah like what do you what am i supposed to do like i've been told i'm like need to record this i was just given another sedative i could hardly hold he had me recite and repeat over and over again this It wasn't a live phone call where I'm calling in and I have the chance of being, mom, save me. Like I had to do the task. I completed the task. And then I'm being punished for it. Same thing of like, oh, she shows up alive.

Well, thank God I'm alive. But I guess you guys aren't happy that I'm alive. Sorry that I survived this, you know? it's not like there's a handbook for being kidnapped in the middle of the night by a stranger and raped for two days and then released and there's no right or wrong way for any victim in any situation to act and the media and the police should know that that's what's so infuriating and i i'm so sorry that you had to go through that entire thing and then you come out and you think oh my god i'm safe like these are the people they're going to look after me and help bring this

of justice and then they just fuck you yeah well and it made it even more terrifying because moeller and captivity the way that he said we will be watching you we will know what you say and the arrogance he was not afraid of getting caught at all and he even told me erin went to police you'll have to speak to them these are the things you can and can't say he of course told me you can't say that you were, he's called it us having sex, but you can't say that you were raped or that I was in the military. But it made me wonder why so quickly I was not only not believed, but attacked. Like immediately the first interaction I had with the Vallejo detective Mustard was him saying that he was going to offer me a proffer of agreement. I haven't even spoken

to him. I spoke to Huntington Beach police, but I'm thinking like the kidnapping's not over. It's continuing on. This is phase two and someone in law enforcement's involved is what I was thinking at the time. Like, why else would they do this? Why? Like, are they trying to frame us? Like it didn't make sense to me and it made it even more frightening. And I felt we have no one to turn to. I was happy to find out the FBI was involved because I thought, okay, these are the real professionals. And it was just the same thing, if not worse. So consistently throughout your story, I'm hearing the expectation of you to perform how people want you to. It's more than just not being believed. You were actually offered an immunity agreement to out Aaron. It's almost

as though that was used as a bargaining tool to try and get one of you to crack before the other one like they were trying to play you off against each other because they didn't believe either of your stories yeah meanwhile while not actually looking for the person that did it absolutely right if it weren't for a police officer quite far away connected to a different crime that he had also committed I think your story would be very very different so when did you first hear from Misty. So we didn't talk to Misty until 2018. I didn't even know exactly the details of the investigation other than Mueller attacked another family and what was reported on the news as far as him leaving the cell phone. And that's how they traced the call. In the FBI affidavit,

we learned a little bit more about that home invasion and some of the things that they investigated and what then they later found as far as the goggles and the blonde hair. But now what I know is that when Misty contacted the FBI and said, you know, that case that you called a hoax, I think there's a connection here. They went in and took all the evidence and took over the case. And so she was done with it. And then they move forward with whatever version of an investigation that they had. And I mean, it's unfortunate because I feel like if Misty stayed on the case, she would have pursued leads that were very obviously there. And again, things would have been different. And then even because of what happened and how the FBI

originally treated us, they didn't question us for more information. It was just kind of like, this is what we're doing. And now we're suddenly, we were suspects and we're going to prosecute you and you can get jail time to, oh, you're victims and we're going to need you to speak in court and you're really reliable sources. Yet we don't believe this huge chunk of information about why you think that there's other people, but you are such good, you know, victims and telling what happened that it's really important for you to be on the stand. And so it was just this really, and also we can't speak publicly. And if you speak publicly and share all these fuck ups, then it could negatively impact the criminal case and Mueller might get less time.

And so now we're in a position where we have to stay silent, even though the facts of the case are being misrepresented, misreported. And we just, we have to wait it out because our primary goal is to make sure this man does not hurt another family. And we tried to do that initially and we were ignored and he attacked another fucking family. So, you know, the amount of pressure and expectations of victims, not just right after and reporting the crime, but all the things that we have to do after to make sure that they get the conviction that is needed to protect the public, to protect other victims. It's incredible. But that was our main focus the whole premise of law is innocent until proven guilty but you guys were guilty until

proven innocent the entire time not only were the police not reprimanded for fault after fault after fault actually that's too kind fuck up after fuck up but they ended up one of the officers end up getting a promotion and he won an award i saw how does that make you feel when you watch that now Yeah, everyone got promoted. Yeah, I mean, that's one of those laughable humor moments that is not funny, but you like either you laugh or you cry. Because it's just insane. One of the reporters who had done really great reporting consistently after Mueller was caught, she had reached out to us to say, hey, we're gonna have this report come out. you know it might be triggering but detective mustard got awarded officer of the year and i like i still like i laugh like i straight up laughed out loud because i'm like like it's it's insane it is ridiculous it is like you really need to stroke his ego that much the same year that he fucked up this kidnapping and we named him in a civil lawsuit so there's a civil

lawsuit in the works but he's getting officer of the year I mean it's it's so ridiculous it's like you cannot write it you cannot write it right with that lawsuit you guys sued for defamation was there ever accountability taken was there ever an apology was there ever people who came to you and said I'm really sorry I did this I'm really sorry that I didn't believe you I fucked up. And I just want to apologize for my own mistakes. So they're one of the agents did later on. But as far as the Vallejo police and everyone involved from the chief of police to the captain to everyone, their counters through their lawyers is we did nothing wrong. All your claims are I'm substantiated. We were valid in believing this and treating you that way because you didn't

act like a victim, because you were calm. You were wearing sunglasses. You had bags. I didn't have control over that. He took my bags and then he dropped me off with the bags. That's not up to me. He put sunglasses on my head. I still had them on. So it was just more and more rounds of victim blaming. It's not us. It's you. It's your fault. We did nothing wrong. And there was never been any accountability with any of them from Vallejo or that lead FBI agent, Sesma. Again, he's gotten promoted and blamed circumstances and not taking accountability. I think he even might have, from what I've heard, claimed that he stayed on the case because he built a good rapport with me just like what the fuck are you talking about because i was polite to you i like i mean that's

another thing i don't think people realize that's really bullshit is you're in the worst moments of your life and these law enforcement people and authority come in and they say hey how's it going oh i heard you lived on the east coast how was that oh so you're a physical therapist and you have to do the small talk bullshit because you're entertaining them because you don't want to be disrespectful because you're hoping that they will help you and that's not rapport that's it's wasting time it's wasting my mental energy my physical energy like get stuff done you've also just come from performing like you've just come from this whole feeling like you needed to build rapport with your attacker and you've been put into almost the same situation where you're like

how am i best going to do how am i best going to get through this well so what a dumb question like oh where are you from i was just right it doesn't matter like i like why does that matter where i'm from right yeah i mean that's definitely something i hope that they can change because it's yeah it's it's really ridiculous and also too it's like you weren't even the it wasn't real rapport he was he was trying to manipulate me because he believed that i committed a hoax so it's not actually rapport, you're just trying to essentially, I mean, that was like, also one of the most terrifying realizations after this is hearing what Aaron went through with his interrogations. And all of what we experienced with law enforcement, the psychological manipulation,

and quite frankly, torture was the same as how I was treated in captivity, they read the same book, and they they did the same tactics and when you can't distinguish between the good guys and the bad guys I think that's a serious problem and hopefully again they can self-reflect and make changes but as far as Vallejo police themselves or at least the ones that were involved in this case I don't I think accountability has to be the first step of that to recognize that something needs to change. Yeah. And that's also another thing too. It's like, they probably could have saved a lawsuit if they just straight up face to face said, you know what? I'm sorry. I believe this. Like we understood why they doubted parts of it. It was so hard to believe even living

through it, that this was happening. No one expects to be woken up in the middle of the night and attacked or attacked on the street, or, you know, like you don't walk around expecting that. Otherwise you'd live your life in terror. And, and so like, I can understand why parts of it was hard to believe, but again, they didn't follow the evidence. You can believe what you want to believe, but do your job, follow the evidence. And they didn't do that. And then it's like, okay, you messed up. Just admit I made a mistake. How can I learn from this and not make another mistake and not put innocent victims through this again and they just refuse to do that that is what is much more frightening I think to me we're all capable of making mistakes but how

we learn from them is key and they didn't learn the message in the docuseries was definitely that the police took no accountability and fucked up which I think is brilliant that it's out there because I didn't realize how inept they were until I watched the docuseries but one thing I think a lot of people are thinking myself included is that most people you would assume when they go through something so horrific and so traumatic as a couple it would drive them apart it would cause so much guilt on both of your behalves that maybe you could have done something differently to save it why did this happen so much stress so much trauma that you both have to work through but for you and Aaron it appears from the outside to be the opposite because you look like you have an

amazing life now and you're married and you have children was there ever a time that that was going to go another way? I mean, the first year was really hard, but I didn't really doubt whether us being together was the right decision. It was, you know, like the reason why we stayed together is because we belong together. Like I said, in the beginning, our chemistry was undeniable. We feed off of each other while we were each other's biggest fans and cheerleader. And the one thing that we never did ever was blame one another. And, and our families never blamed anyone, you know, so there was never any of that dynamic. And that was a key thing to help us through it as individuals. And as a couple, both of our families were incredibly supportive and helpful. and there was of course the self-doubt and the self-guilt and blame and that was more individual internal to ourselves and we went through couples therapy and we discussed a lot of

those types of insecurities and fears and it was a lot of hard work but we got through it and we understood each other on a level that I don't think many people could you know so and a lot of this, even just going through the court cases and dealing with law enforcement and then speaking publicly, I don't think we really could do it if we didn't have each other. There's moments where I'm completely wiped out and Aaron's the one who's strong and taking over things. And then sometimes that role switches and then sometimes we're both defeated and we just have to lay on the couch and accept that. And that's fine too. So I think like kind of accepting that it's not a straight line to recovery and there's ups and downs and we give each other and ourselves a lot

of grace as much as we can. I think being in the professions that we are as physical therapists and helping others heal and find peace and overcoming obstacles helps us understand even trauma and the brain and the body and recovery so we have that advantage as well so i think there's a lot of pieces that helped us see through the other end denise you guys have gone on to have a beautiful family what's the significance of the day that your daughter was born? I think instantly I want to cry. So yeah, she was born March 25th, 2020, which is five years to the day that I was released from the kidnapping, which is just insane. I mean, it's really like life truly coming full circle and creating new memories new meaning having you know

because I'm sure a lot of people who've gone through a traumatic event the anniversary around that time is always re-triggering like the smells in the air you know there's just so much that brings you back to that place. And now we get the opportunity to have an amazing little human who's just so sweet and full of life and innocence. And, you know, we get to experience life all over again through her eyes and guide her through it. And that's just amazing. And now we have another little girl and just seeing them interact. And I mean, that's certainly, it refuels you and motivates you any moment where I'm like, I can't do this. I can't put myself out there publicly again. Like, look what happened, you know? But then I'm like, well,

fuck, like things need to change and things aren't going to change if people don't know how bad this is. So we need to make sure we are doing whatever we can for those little girls. Denise, your story is truly incredible, but the most incredible part about the story is not what happened. It's you and Aaron and the way you have handled it and the way you were speaking about it and trying to make change and getting up and doing podcasts like this, which we appreciate and we know can't be easy. But the fact that the story also focused on the victims instead of the perpetrator, and I know that that was a pretty active decision by the producers. Did you have much of a say in the way that this documentary came together did you get any any oversight any

changes what was that like oh yeah we would not have worked with them if it would have been different we again I it's just hard for I think anyone to understand how difficult it is to go through this process of trying to tell your story publicly in the quote-unquote entertainment industry because you don't have any power as a subject and we knew we wanted to write a book before we did anything because we knew anything on film was going to be edited contractually when you enter these types of projects all the power is in the people with the money the networks and the producers and it's written in the language like we get to use your life rights your name exploit, dramatize, whatever in any way that we can. So it's a big leap of faith. And we've

entered some things where we've had to get out of because it did not match. This isn't what we agreed to. It's been like, it's really big fights to get out of contracts. And so when we talked with Ra, the production company, we saw Tinder Swindler, we saw other works that they did. It was very victim centric. So we've seen the proof is in the pudding. They've already done this. This is what they, not just what they're claiming, but what they're showing that they're doing. They already had contracts with Netflix. So Netflix was already on board with that. And again, we had many, many talks with Netflix with them before, like we had them write an outline before we moved forward. And even along the way, there's still, you know, differences

an opinion of what should be highlighted or not. But I think ultimately, like they, they showed the emotion around it, they highlighted the really important pieces and the overall message and theme that people were taken away with is why we wanted to do this. And so, yeah, it was a lot of work. And we're grateful that we were able to find the right team finally to do it and it was received well, which I think just on another side note is encouraging to me because I think in 2015 things would have been very different of how true crime was structured. And people are wanting to hear more from victims. It's less about what's the perpetrator up to? There's some people who still want to focus on that, but it's more what's the bigger picture and seeing more about the

systemic flaws and wanting to make change so I think that says a lot about who we are as a society and an audience as well so it's yeah it's overall like I'm just really pleased with with how it all turned out. Denise I also think that while reliving these experiences on such a large scale would cause so much pain I know that there would be so so so many people particularly women who would be feeling as though they could relate to you yours is obviously the extreme version but far too often victims are not believed do you feel as though going through this process of reliving it and having more and more people hear your story do you think it has been worth the positive outcome yes and I need continued therapy like I just you know it's been physically really painful the last

month. And it's frustrating for myself. And I almost feel ashamed because it's like, everyone's been so nice. I mean, it's insane how many people from all over the world have reached out and shared their stories with me and saying how strong and brave I am. And then I'm at home, you know, with my stomach sick and in a ball and going, I'm not brave and strong. Like if I feel this way, you know, they can run parallel to each other. Correct. And I have to keep reminding myself that because logically logically I know that internally that's where the work still lies you know so we've come we both have come a long way and we've made progress and I think it's just part of the realization if if we do put ourselves out there we need that extra assistance to help

get us through it because it's it's a part of our healing to be able to share and try to connect to people on a more global scale and we need to attend to these deep wounds as well so we'll keep working on it personally and then also on these projects so. Denise I can't thank you enough for giving us your story and your time today because like you just said that's not easy and I can't imagine what it's like having to relive it but you're doing it for you as much as you're doing it for past victims and I know that you just said you get a little bit nervous about putting yourself out there again and telling your story again because the response in the past hasn't necessarily been amazing but I want you to know that we are on your team and I know our

audience is on your team too and that's why we're doing this today and we just wish you nothing but an amazing healthy wonderful future well thank you I really appreciate it wow that was incredible I feel very lucky to have been able to speak with Denise. Something that we know far too well from the people we've spoken to on the podcast is that going back and reliving these stories can be really traumatizing and it can bring up a lot of emotions that maybe it would be easier to not have to revisit that time in your life but Denise is doing this for a purpose and that purpose is not only to make other victims feel as though they too should be believed but in an effort to change the fact that law enforcement they do need to do better they fell so short so many times in her

story without people like her speaking about it I don't see that change coming about yep she's an incredibly strong woman and I completely take my hat off to her and I'm grateful that she gave us her time today yeah so if you did enjoy this episode please do all of the podcast things like subscribe share it with a friend definitely share it with a friend because so many people we know 50 million people have seen this on netflix so so many people that have enjoyed it on netflix and got something out of it are going to get even more out of this episode so please share it with a friend and if you want to go and watch this whole interview you can on our youtube channel we've put the link in our show notes so you can just jump on there and click it if you

want to go have a search for it now it's just youtube.com forward slash at life uncut podcast also if this is the type of conversation that you really enjoy we have two episodes linked in our show notes one is with panilla and cecilia from the tinder swindler the same producers of american nightmare and we also spoke to kayla laws she was involved in the netflix docuseries about revenge porn it was called is anybody up it came out a couple of years ago and it was a really interesting conversation with her about having something happen to her that was not yet legal and watching the prosecution of that man for a very different crime that he committed so links to those are in the show notes and you know the drill.

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