Life Uncut - Are You the 'Fixer'? Unpacking High-Functioning Codependency with Terri Cole

Episode Date: October 22, 2024

Terri is a licensed psychotherapist and relationship expert. She is the author of ‘Boundary Boss’ and ‘Too Much’. This is the third time Terri has joined us on the podcast! The first time was to speak about cheating, the second was to speak about boundaries and today Terri is joining us to unpack codependence! But, not the standard idea of what codependency is. Today we speak about what Terri refers to as ‘high functioning codependence’ and how we are able to recognise when we are doing ‘too much’ for other people, and need to prioritise ourselves more. Spoiler, none of us identified as being codependent… until we learnt what high functioning codependency looked like and the alarm bells RANG! We speak about: High functioning codependency isn’t what we typically think of a a ‘codependent person’ They’re highly capable, the person everyone depends on, the problem solver, the ‘fixer’ Resentment inventories! We all need to identify where we are ‘over giving’ and ‘over functioning’ Being hyper independent, “I got it” and not wanting to ask for help or owing other people anything  How it all contributes to burnout and cognitive overloadDo you identify with any of these labels? They might be new to you!-approval seeking, -auto fixing/auto accommodator-self sacrificing-hyper helping You can listen to Terri’s previous episodes with us here: People Pleasers Anonymous - Better Boundaries and Once A Cheater, Are They Always A Cheater? You can find everything from Terri: Website  Book website Instagram Podcast You can watch us on Youtube Find us on Instagram Join us on tiktok Or join the Facebook Discussion Group Tell your mum, tell your dad, tell your dog, tell your friend and share the love because WE LOVE LOVE! xxSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This episode was recorded on Camaragal land. Hi guys and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Laura. I'm Brittany. Today's guest that we have is someone who statistically on this podcast is our favourite guest because this will be her third time back here. And I'm not sure we've ever done a three-timer, have we? No, that's why she's statistically our favorite because it's the only person who has ever done three episodes. But that's because, I mean, every time we have spoken to Terry Cole,

there have been real aha moments that both Britt and myself have had around our own lives, our own personality traits. We've spoken around cheating. We've done episodes on boundaries. We were speaking about boundaries on our last ep that we did with Terry and we were talking about high functioning codependence. And I remember sitting there during that conversation. I had this moment where I was like, ping! But to give you a little bit of a background on this, I think so many of us have a perception around what codependent means. And it is not necessarily a very positive label that we would put on ourselves. I think we often think clingy, we think needy, we think can't not be in a relationship. But this definition and conversation around what a

high-functioning codependent is, is something that's really different. And I honestly think so many people will have that same aha moment who will be listening to this episode. So Terry, welcome back to the pod. Why, thanks for having me, Laura and Britt. Terry, you have been in this industry as a psychotherapist for like 20 years. You've written multiple books. What was it that led you now to specialize in this high-functioning codependency? It's really just what I saw. I've actually been a therapist for 27 years, but it's really what I saw. I mean, what was happening for me is that in my therapy practice, I attracted women who were like me, which was super highly capable women, like just the masters

of the universe, like doing it in the world and managing businesses and homes and families and aging parents and all the things like just having it going on. And then I would see a relational pattern. If I pointed it out and say, Hey, what I'm seeing, this is codependent behavioral pattern. they would immediately reject, immediately go, yeah, wrong lady. Everyone depends on me. I'm the one making all the dough, making all the decisions, making all the moves, moving everything forward, doing all the emotional labor. Like I'm the rock in my family and in my friend group. And like, I'm not dependent on shit is basically what they would say. And I realized they don't know what codependency is. They think that codependency is codependent

no more. Melody Beatty, you got to be enabling an alcoholic to be a codependent. And like you guys said, weak, dependent, can't make a decision. Like the long suffering wife of like the debtor who's going out and spending the rent money. You know what I mean? But that ain't it. And that wasn't what I was seeing in my therapy practice and what I had experienced myself. So my definition of codependency is being overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the situations, the circumstances, the relationships, the careers of the people in our lives to the detriment of our own internal peace. How does one identify that in themselves though? Because I think the alternate, this original understanding of what codependency is, it's way easier to point out.

It's way easier to be like, oh, that's someone who can't be without a man or can't be without a person. But the definition of what you've just described, I feel like the line is so blurred between figuring out, oh, maybe I have high functioning codependency, or I'm just super invested in my family and my friends and my loved ones and my businesses. All right. So I'm going to tell you exactly how you can figure it out. First of all, how you feel, right? If you are going to do a quick resentment inventory, anybody listening to this or watching this, and that's going to show you in what relationships you are most likely over-functioning, over-giving, because the over-functioning, under-functioning dynamic

creates resentment. So if you're doing all the things for all the people and you're invested in the people that you love and you feel great and you have no resentment and you're not exhausted and burnt out, then go you. Then it's fine. And even if it is high-functioning codependency, that can also be a choice. You can say, hey, this is my identity and I want to be that way. what I'm finding is that it's not sustainable that right like what you could do like in your 20s for a long time as you age start hitting perimenopause menopause you just don't have the bandwidth to do all the things for all the people so maybe it would be helpful if we identified what are the traits of high functioning codependence so that people can see like do they

see themselves in these traits and then we could talk about behaviors really because that's how you're going to be able to go is this me or is this not me if we look at the traits feeling overly responsible to fix other people's problems let's just start there giving like going above and beyond giving till it hurts even if you're not asked to always ready to jump into damage control there's a problem and you're like okay so you're going to do this i'm going to do this like you're great in a crisis it can also look like kind of being a little judgmental of other people because we really do think that we know what they should be doing we really do have the solutions for them And if they would just listen, then they wouldn't be in pain and we would be so much

happier if they would just take our frigging advice because we can get frustrated and pissed when they don't take our advice because now they're still complaining about the same shit that we could have solved. We did solve two weeks ago. They just didn't take action on feeling exhausted, resentful, bitter. Another trait is being hyper independent where you're not the best at asking for help or allowing people to help you, where you're sort of like the mantra of the HFC is, I got it. I'm good. We don't love it. We don't love being vulnerable to other people, which is what asking for help

makes us. So it's like that hyper-independence is really something that's there. And what does it look like? Like in your day-to-day life, if you're like, hmm, I wonder if I'm an HFC. Well, do you give unsolicited advice called auto-advice giving? The second a situation happens are you immediately like okay i've got the answer so i'm going to google this i talk to this person i'm connecting with my friend who's an md like we're doing all the things for other people and you don't even know them you're just sitting next to them at the cafe just overheard the conversation fact literally those are true stories which i shared in the book about you could be codependently attached if you're an hfc to people you just freaking meet so there are some

distinctions between sort of the old school self-sacrificing we talked about auto-accommodating right? What is auto-accommodating? I share a story in the book. I'm at my hair salon in Manhattan. It's like a busy Saturday. And I'm laying in the sink because I have a mask on my hair. And now the sink traffic is backing up. And the more it backs up, the more anxious I'm getting. Here's me just laying, taking a sink. I don't even need a fucking sink. I could be sitting somewhere. I raised my hand. I have the assistant come over. I'm like, you know, I could move. She's like, yeah, lady, how are you doing? We got it. We do this every Saturday. So that's auto-accommodating. I took it upon me, Terry Cole, I should be responsible for

the sink flow at my busy hair salon. But is that not just because you're a normal person that has some level of empathy and you can see that you're inconveniencing other people, even if it is indirectly? It's not you. You don't own the salon. But I feel like I would do the same thing. I'd feel like, why are we stopping this flow and I'm stopping the next person from getting their shit done and getting out just because I'm laying here. Yeah, but it's not though. It sounds like that, but here's the thing. That was not my side of the street. The girl who was running that sink flow could have, if she needed me to move, she would have asked me. She has eyes too. She saw that I was laying there doing nothing, right? So it isn't that. It wasn't my side of the street,

but I'm so codependently dialed into my environment. It made me so uncomfortable that I was trying to fix what wasn't mine to fix. And here's, here's why we should give a shit. What is the cost of doing that? The hypervigilance. I could be laying there meditating, calling my mother, doing nothing, resting my exhausted brain. But instead you wonder why my brain was exhausted. I was not doing that. I was thinking about how they could have a better sink flow. And I was going to tell someone my idea in the middle of my 10 minutes laying there, like incorrect. You said something and my very first thought was, but isn't that a contradiction to the literal definition of independence? You were like, it's the person who is so self-sufficient

that they can't take help, that they're so independent that they repel help. How are those things connected well they are because we can be hyper helpers to other people and we love the you mean listen there's a there's a helper's high that shit is real right where it feels amazing to help someone who's in a jam or to come up with a solution someone's like oh thank god for you you know there's a high that comes along with that so you can be that and not want to allow someone else to do that for you. Because to do that, you must be in that state of vulnerability. And when you're in HFC, it doesn't feel good. We're very comfortable and we may not even be conscious of it, but we're very comfortable giving and doing and providing and helping and saving, right? We're super comfortable

putting on that cape. We don't want to be a burden to other people. We don't want to owe other people. well, these are other reasons besides the vulnerability. But part of it is if an HFC, if you let someone do something for you, you feel like you owe them kind of like there's a lack of mutuality in some of the relationships with HFCs. I think that this is why it's so hard for someone who is a high functioning codependent to figure out that that's what they are, because you would see those traits as being, I've got this, I'm independent. And exactly like you said, some of these women who may display these characteristics may very well be the breadwinner in their family, you know, and those

attributes don't lend themselves to your classical ideologies around codependency. And so that's why when we were having that conversation, when we were talking about boundaries, I had this real moment. And I know that in some of my past relationships, I've definitely displayed codependent tendencies, but I definitely didn't think it permeated all through my life. And then the more we spoke about it, the more we were like, oh yeah, yeah, I see this now. Can we draw a picture here for everyone and just really simplify what takes something from codependency to high functioning codependency? What are those characteristics that a high functioning person has that a normal codependent person doesn't have? Well, part of it is that the irony of HFC is that the more capable you are, the less codependency looks like codependency, but it still is codependency. So again, the same way my clients were not identified with codependency, the old school definition. And so why it matters is because if you're an HFC, nobody's checking on you. You know why? Because you're fine, right? You're always fine. We're the ones checking on other people usually. So really, it's just a way of outing people where the way that HFC, the way our codependency and our boundary crossing, because that is what it is, shows up is auto advice giving, auto accommodating, over-functioning, over-giving, taking on more responsibility in the relationship, being like, I got it.

having the over and under functioning where, you know, I would tell a joke that, you know, in my 20s, I could take a perfectly functioning boy and turn him into an under functioner in two weeks or less. You know what I mean? Because I would just like, do it all. I got it. Like, just don't just relax. I got it all. And it's almost like your value sometimes is in the doing and being the person that everyone comes to for, you know what I mean? For whatever they know they can count on you. Yeah. Cause I think sometimes we get stuck in, I just did it to my partner this morning on the way here. We get stuck in it. It's easier if I just do it. Like it's easier for you to just send me that and I will do it, then tell you how to do it now and walk you through it. So

I think a lot of people get sucked into that vacuum, but we tend to talk about and see HFC in this negative bubble. Like it has this negative connotation to it. Can it ever be a positive that someone is an HFC? Yep. I say it like they've got a disease, an HFC. That's correct. That is correct. Here's the thing. When we balance out the disordered boundaries and the overfunctioning and the auto, right, the reactions of being an HFC, being an HFC is your superpower, right? Your high capabilities don't suddenly go away because you get into recovery, which is all we can hope for with HFC. There's no like curing it, right? this is your nature this is what you learned it's a combination of nature and nurture but when people on the internet push back to me and they're like maybe i'm just nice how about that terry maybe i'm just generous you ever think of that i'm like here's the thing if you can't not do it it's not you being nice yeah if you can't not do it it's a compulsion like any other compulsion so i know we

love to think of ourselves as mother Teresa, but what I'm saying to internet people is that if you are compulsively doing this shit, it is not a choice. So it's not you consciously being nice. It's you automatically trying to change someone else's feelings or situation or circumstance because it is making you uncomfortable. I don't want to gender it, but I do see this in my friendship groups. I see this with the women that I'm close with. You are often the ones that get lumped with a lot of the stuff it's the mental load it's the kids it's the trying to maintain a friendship group it's the trying to you know have a successful career so I wonder if it's sometimes hard for people to identify whether it's like almost as though they feel as though it's

forced upon them like figuring out like what is it that they're choosing and opting into doing because it's a characteristic of HSC or it's because it's literally the nature of which we live where a lot of women are tasked with the burden of not only just being the carer but the worker and it's like you can do it all and you've got to do it all at the same time indeed but here's the thing we have choices and the thing is i think that what i hope this book does is bring those choices from the basement to the conscious part of the mind because if not what does a life look like if we just hfc it up until we're dead like what does that life actually look like it's not that satisfying. I can tell you for sure. And that the bitterness and the anger and the

feeling put out and the feeling martyred, you don't think that women when they're 21, they're like, I can't wait to grow up and become a martyr. It's got to be amazing. Nobody wants that. You know what I'm saying? It happens over time and time and time and time and time when we're overgiving and we don't create equitable relationships in our lives, but you can change if you're in a situation where even if you've taken it all on, because you're like, that's right. I'm super woman. I can do it all. But maybe you're burnt out or maybe you're resenting your partner, or maybe you don't have energy, or maybe you feel depressed, or maybe you've gained weight or whatever the things are, you know, or maybe you're going into perimenopause

or menopause. And this creates a whole other ball of wax that we got to deal with that gives us, we don't have the same capacity when the hormones are changing because it's changing your brain. There's so many things that are going on. You can change. So that's what I walk you through in the book is we have to be able to tolerate our own feelings because it's not your job to do what you're doing right now in many of your relationships. It is not your job to fix other people's problems. It sounds like one of the main byproducts in a romantic relationship, maybe not romantic, but is resentment. If you have this high functioning relationship for so long and you build resentment, and in my eyes, resentment is one of the hardest things to

overcome in a relationship i think i think it's probably easier to don't come for me i think it's easier to probably overcome a physical infidelity in one night than it is of 15 years of resentment that's been built up i will agree with that assessment because the thing is a lot of times if it's a one-off with infidelity that can be the trigger for a relationship you know not if somebody had a fucking separate family they didn't know about but if it really was a one-night experience, that can be the catalyst to, you know, Esther Perel would say, you know, this can be the thing that brings people really together and sort of, you got to burn it down to rebuild it. But with resentment, and it's such a slow build with resentment, it's cumulative. So it's like

all of the stuff you're not talking about, all of the truth that you may not be telling, because you just want there to be peace. You just want everything to be okay. You want everyone to be okay. But that can only happen if you are actually okay. And if you feel burdened and underappreciated and exhausted, you're really not okay. And your relationship is not okay either, because sooner or later, there's going to be some kind of a crack, right? It's going to come to a head, but you don't have to wait for that to happen. You can do an inventory right now. If you do a resentment inventory and you go, okay, I realize now I'm resenting my partner because they said they would do this with the kids and they don't do it unless I ask them. And then I

check and then I set it up and then I'm the one who does the calling. You have to have a conversation that says, Hey, here are the things that we do as a couple. Here are all the things I was being interviewed by someone. And she said, I'm having a seven hour meeting with my husband tomorrow. I was like, wow. And she said, I realized she's like, my husband's great. I mean, people would consider him like he's modern, you know, he does a lot, but here's the thing. I still resent the shit out of him. I was like, why? And she was like, because first of all, he wants me to throw him a parade when he does shit. And he has no idea how much that I do. Like he wants a parade for the four things that are on his list when he packs the dishwasher. Yeah. And she's

like, and I don't want to give him that because he doesn't even know the one 10th of what I actually do to keep this shit running? Like he does not know. And I was like, but babe, whose fault is that? He doesn't know because you're not telling him, but you're holding him responsible for knowing even though he doesn't. But you also, then you get into this area of like scorekeeping when you're doing that, when you're like, well, you did this and I did this. And I feel like that is just, you know, when you get to that point in a relationship, when we're talking about resentment, like scorekeeping is such a dangerous thing to do to your partner i'm going to disagree and i'm going to tell you why i agree that bean counting scorekeeping bean counting is not the way to go

but if you have a very lopsided relationship right now where you're doing all the emotional labor where you do all the cooking all the kids all the stuff and have a career there has to be a come to jesus like okay we need to rejigger this thing because it's not working right that moment of that lady being like, there's 4,000 things on my list and there's 20 on his list. I'm like, okay, well in your seven hour family meeting, I guess you can offload some of this stuff on your list or maybe see if you guys can that be, can we pay someone to do some of those things or whatever, but there has to be more fairness in a relationship. I'm not saying it has to be perfectly equitable. Definitely. You're going to do things better than your partner.

your partner's going to do things better than you. Same for me, right? We all have our skill set. So it isn't like I planned the vacation this time, you do it next time. It won't be that, right? Because I would never let my husband plan a vacation because he would just buy the airfare. He would just be like, oh, the airfare to LA was $4,500. Is that okay? Like, no. My fiance would book it for like the wrong year. I would never let him touch it. Right. So we know that, but then there are things that they do better as well. And I think that we have to come together in our unions and get real. If we set it up as if it were 1950, but it's 2024, we might need to revisit and recalibrate how we're going to be doing these things. And yeah,

people are not going to love it sometimes. Yeah. But even that, I would be devastated if my partner came to me and was like, sit your ass down. I've blocked out a work day, seven hours that we're going to go through all this shit. I'd be devastated. I would hope that we could get to a place where you are letting each other know constantly, the constant communication. But I'm just as guilty of doing the opposite. I'm just as guilty as them saying, what's wrong? And me being like, nothing, don't worry about it. And then that's what you said before, that slow creep of resentment that builds up. And then one day it's just there. It's so sneaky and you don't see it. I'd love to know what the effect is if you're an HFC, the effect on your children or those that

you're bringing up. Because I imagine that if there's a level of control and not letting them do anything, you're going to put a level of independence on those children. Sorry, not independence, lack of independence. I know what you meant. Yeah, yeah. My brain knew what I was trying to get out to. I got you. This is a really important reason why we want to stop the cycle, right? Kids are like a perfect reason to do it better than perhaps our parents did it. What happens when we over-function for children is that we are sending them a message. They're coming to us and saying, mom, I need help. Can't do this. I don't know how to do it. And you saying, you're right. You can't. I agree with you. You think you're a loser? Me too. So we're all on

the same page that you're a loser and that mommy has to save you. And you can't tie your own shoelaces. Yeah. Now, I mean, we want it to be age appropriate, right? I'm going to say that to my three-year-old the next time she wants me to wipe her ass. I'll be like, you do it. You do it, Lola, you lose her. Yeah, she's three. Age appropriate. But what we want to teach kids is deductive reasoning, critical thinking, right? So the first thing, a kid comes to you and is like, I had a terrible day.

This horrible thing happened. You know, you say, what happened? They tell you this horrible thing. And then I got so mad, I like kicked the person in the leg or whatever they said. Instead of you being like, well, now you need to go and apologize, telling them what to do or solving their problem. The first step, right? The first step on the bus has to always be no matter who you're talking to. Okay. Before we get into it, what do you think you should do? Even asking little kids what they think they should do is okay. We're not going to let them do it. If they're like, I think I should get a gun and shoot Bobby. We're obviously not going to let them do that, but we're teaching them to think, think through consequences, trust their gut. Whenever I'm talking to a little kid and they're wanting me to fix whatever it is, I'll say, listen, your gut instinct is good.

So tell me, what do you think you should do? We'll figure it out together. Like, I'm not going to abandon the kid, but we can teach children to problem solve instead of being so afraid of them making mistakes and so afraid for them. We treat kids nowadays a lot like they're super fragile and they're super not. I have a question around like where this comes from. We don't just show up in the world and be like, oh, I'm high-functioning codependent. All of a sudden, this just happened to me. What are the, I guess, the predetermining factors that would make someone high-functioning

codependent? I mean, just look at the way we're raised. It all, I hate to say it, but it all goes back to the scene of the crime, which is the family of origin and childhood. And most of us were raised to kind of be good girls. Where's my happy girl? Turn that frown around. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all, right?

So we're taught to suppress our feelings. If those feelings will not be liked by other people, we're taught to be hopeful. The most thing when I was being raised, being perceived as being nice was pretty much more important than anything else. Be nice, be a good girl. So we're really coming into this at a disadvantage because we have to learn to prioritize how we feel, what we want, what we think, and how we feel. and in this process of getting into recovery, you have to understand that those things are

not just important, what you think, what you want and how you feel. It has to be literally the most important thing to you, more important than what anybody else wants, thinks or feels. Now that's not to say we don't compromise in our relationships. Of course we do. This is how we have relationships. But for most people, we were taught to not prioritize what we think, what we want and how we feel. And we have to. So we're unlearning a lot of home training. And then you have personality traits too. Some of us are just more people pleaser by nature as well. If you're an extrovert, if you're very positive, if you like to help, if you were a helper in your family system, right? So there's all these different experiences we may have. And then we all have our unique

relational blueprint, which is what you saw. How did the adults relate? Like an HFC blueprint is a relational blueprint. What we learned about how you're supposed to be in relationships. So if you had a people-pleasing mom, if you had a mom who did all the things for all the people and nobody ever thanked her, you came by it naturally. Do people who have characteristics or can see themselves as high-functioning codependents, are they more inclined to get into relationships that do not serve them and are negative and bad relationships or toxic relationships, which we like to throw around? Or is it quite common that they will get into a great relationship, but then still have high functioning attributes in that relationship?

Both are true. So I can't say one is more common, but I have to say high functioning codependence, getting involved in unhealthy relationships. So the over-functioning and under-functioning like being an HFC and getting in relationship with a narcissist. I mean, I did devote an entire chapter to that in this book, because the truth is it is common. and it makes sense. If you're an HFC, right? You have a narcissist whose vibe is, it's all about me. You have an HFC whose vibe is great. It's all about you. I want you to be happy. I want you to feel fulfilled. I want you to think I'm the best and that sex is the best and that we're having so much fun together and taking care of someone whose expectation is that you will.

it's like a perfectly messed up fit it's like that cracked pot finds the perfectly cracked lid and it is like a match made in heaven i mean obviously until it's and how hell breaks loose so is hfc or just codependency linked to say anxious attachment style honestly i feel like any attachment style could be hfc now other people might disagree but i identify myself as being pretty securely attached. I had a very present and responsive mother. I have the same friends I've had since Nixon was in office, and you probably don't even know who Nixon is, but 1973. Thank you. You know what I mean? I've been with my husband 27 years. My ability to have long-term relationships is there, and yet I was the most HFC of all the HFCs. And so what is it

about? Part of it was my place in the family. I was the hero child. It was an alcoholic system. so I was the one who did good so the whole family could agree yeah if nothing else everyone agreed I was amazing you know what I mean but none of those things are free so family systems roll in your family system attachment style certainly can play a part but I gotta say I don't think any attachment style is free from potentially being an HFC when did you realize yourself well I mean when you've done all the study you've written the books literally when was it that you were like oh this is me i'm talking about myself you know it's interesting i in in the book i tell this story and we might have talked about this so i don't need to rehash but there was a very

painful experience with one of my sisters being in a terrible relationship with an abusive guy who was doing crack and she was drinking and they lived in a house without running water and electricity this is one of my older sisters who like had a history of like bad dating life and she was in this domestic horrendous domestic situation which for an hfc means that every day of my life was a five alarm fire of like, how can I get her out? What must I do? Like everything is possible. Also, when you're an HFC, you're really optimistic that if you just keep at it, you'll figure some shit out, whatever it is. Yeah. So anyway, I was crying to my therapist and this is my, I was in my late twenties then. And I was saying, Bev, I've done everything. I've done

everything I can. What am I going to do? I was talking about my sister and she said, Terry, let me ask you something. What makes you think you know what your sister needs to learn in this lifetime and how she needs to learn it? And I was like, I don't know, but I think we can agree. She doesn't need to do it with a crackhead in the woods without running fucking water. I mean, is that, can we agree with that? And she said, honestly, Tara, I can't agree because I don't know what and how your sister needs to learn what she needs to learn in this life. And so I'm not God and neither are you. And she said, but do you know what's going on for you? And I was like, obviously no so help what is going on for me because i'm confused and she said you've worked

really hard to create a pretty harmonious life and your sister's domestic dumpster fire is really messing with your peace and you really want your pain to end and i was like you are not lying bev that is fucking true but can't both things be true at the same time can't you want your pain to end and also you don't want your sister to be with a crackhead in the woods with no running water Correct. That's true. But the way that I was going about it, I was trampling on my sister's sovereignty, her right to make her own decisions, even if they suck. People have a right to succeed or fail, to thrive or flail without me being like, this is too stressful for me. You need to get out of there now because I can't tolerate it. So what I did was, this is when I started, I was introduced to boundaries and she was like, and you don't need to talk to her and let her tell you about this abusive guy. Like you literally don't need to, you need to protect your tender heart around this situation. So I drew a boundary, talked to my sister, said, Hey, I love you. And I'm going to step back. If you ever want to get out though, I will always be your person. And within nine months, we talked a couple of times, you know, it wasn't like we, I didn't cut her off or anything, but I wasn't entertaining this conversation because, you know, we'd get off the phone after she's telling me the most horrible shit in the world. And she's like, I always feel so much better after talking to you. And I'm like, I feel like a toxic waste site.

And I think as codependents, we can do this. We're fixing problems. We're keeping things going and actually we're not helping the problem. We're actually just enabling the behavior to continue. Yes. We're literally robbing the person of the experience that will get them to the place in themselves. Yeah. So with, with my sister, the PS on the story was nine months later, she called and was like, Hey, are you still my person? I definitely am ready now. And I was like, putting on my sneakers, jumped in my car, picked her up. She went back to school. She got sober. Like the most important PS is that instead of Terry and her cape saving her older sister, my sister got to be the hero of her own frigging story. Got that self-esteem

all respect from me to her, but also building a life that she loves. Not because I made that possible for her because I paid for it or because I kicked him out or I called the police or whatever, because I tolerated the way it made me feel, which was horrible until she got ready. And then I am appropriately helping her, right? Me going to get her, helping her get back on her feet. That's appropriate, right? Me deciding when and how she should leave. And I was going to make it happen that's not appropriate that was me overstepping for my own pain you know can you tell us what you mean by the terminology let them you speak about this idea let them what does that mean to you and how is that something that we should be implementing if we do kind of recognize

okay we are hfcs yeah it's funny there's a couple of things i can give you to do in the moment that's helpful and that's actually that's a mel robbins thing that i actually put in the book and obviously credit her, where she says, when people are about to do something that, you know, is like whack and they shouldn't do it and you want to tell them not to do it, or you want to give advice, you want to control something, or you want to tell someone the best way that they should drive down wherever it is, that instead of saying it in your mind, just think, let them, let them live, let them go the way they want to go, let them do what they're going to do. And even though it's an illusion, why I think it's funny and why I mentioned it is that of course it's an illusion

because you're not actually letting them or not letting them, but what it signals to your central nervous system is that you can relax. Like you're telling yourself in my vernacular, that's not my side of the street, right? That's for them to discover, or that's for them to learn. So again, you know, Brett, I almost feel like you've got, there's a black or white thinking that you have, that it almost means that what I'm saying perhaps is like just everyone, every man for himself, Like, fuck you. You're on your own. I'm just being nice. Why are you judging me? But what I, what I say is that there is a place between, and that's what we're talking about. When we say let them, we are allowing people to make their own decisions because they do have a right to make mistakes the same way we do and how I never would have learned. I don't make mistakes, Terry. Please.

Yeah, of course you don't. Obviously not, Britt. Obviously. I mean, Laura does. That's different, though. I carry them for the both of us, Terry. Don't worry. No, obviously that was a joke.

Okay, but what about in the instance where this whole idea of letting them, let them, when the decision that they're making genuinely directly impacts your life and makes your life harder? When we're talking about let them, I'm talking about you have a kid who's going to change their major. Now they want to become a chef and you're like, well, that's a horrible life. I really don't think he's going to like it. He's not even a good cook. I don't even know what the hell he's talking about. Instead of all of that, you say to yourself, let him, he'll find it out.

Maybe, maybe I'm wrong. He'll get fired. He'll be fine. Exactly. He'll discover it on his own. When you're talking about, we have a family, we are married, right? My husband came to me many years ago and was like, had this opportunity to go into a war zone to he's an artist and he does on the spot drawing and he's incredibly talented. He's very

successful. And I did let him, but it was appropriate that he came to me to say, how do you feel about me going to Iraq to an active war zone? I was like, I mean, terrible, but I'm not going to stop you because it's your dream. And then I don't want you to resent me. So good, go, just don't die, please. Which he did not. So he's gone more than once. And he came back. If I had had children, young children, my kids are grown. I've got grandkids at this point. I do not think, A, I don't think he would have asked me, but B, if he did, I do not think I would have been like, just let him, you got to live your life. No, I don't think so. If I have a six month old, you know, when you can do that later when kids are grown, but we've decided

together to have these children, let's dissect this decision that you're going to make. Cause you are not a single man about town, buddy. You are committed to me for life or so you said, and we have kids or a kid. And that is something to consider. It does matter if it's going to burden you. You may still choose to support him in it. But the thing is, it can't be his decision. This is a decision we make together. I wouldn't take a job that was going to suddenly put me on the road, you know, three weeks a month when we have a puppy or we have animals to take care of and assume that my husband was going to be like, that's cool. No problem. I'll let you live your life. When we're in unions, this is where negotiation comes in. This is not across the

board. When we say let them is when we are going across, getting from our side of the street to someone else's side of the street, and we can't wait to tell them what we really think they should do. And maybe we don't need to do that. When we talk about codependency, the antithesis is, I'm assuming hyper-independence. Is that a negative thing or is that what we're striving to be? I feel like if I was to actually put myself in a category, I would probably say I am hyper-independent, but then some of the traits that you were saying about that can also look like codependency. I was like, oh, maybe I'm not just hyper-independent. Maybe some of those parts are also codependent. Brittany's like, I think I'm codependent. Yes, but you're an HFC for sure.

I've lived alone forever. I don't ever ask people for help. I just don't, even with my emotions, I don't unload on friends. I just keep everything to myself. I like to think of myself, I could go to an island and I like to think I could survive on my own for years. Like that is genuinely, I truly believe that when I say that. It's so funny because Britt and you, and you would never, ever, ever admit it because I

think it's like the antithesis of like who and how you want to be in life. But I, I see you and think you're a high functioning codependent completely. That's so interesting. because I always I don't even choose people that are around me like I don't even date anyone in the same country because I don't want yeah but that's just having intimacy issues that's just like that's just you can have co-existing issues right that was I was the same used to only date men on other continents because I really wanted a relationship my therapist was like do you though because I feel like you don't because you keep dating men who live in Greece

anyway while you live in New York City I want to talk speak to the hyper independence because that is one of the traits of HFC. And one of the reasons for it is not wanting to be vulnerable. And the thing is to have the juicy, delicious, amazing life that you deserve, you have got to learn and allow yourself to be vulnerable to the right people. Now, that means we need to figure out who is emotionally trustworthy, who gets to be in the VIP section of our lives, who gets to be in the front row of our amazing lives. That shit is a privilege. Should not be just general seating, right? Okay. So I'm cooked. Got it. Multiple things at once. Multiple issues at once. Got it. I'll work on it. Terry, I love speaking to you. I feel like every time we do

have these conversations, I learn so much more around things that I would have thought were conflicting. And then I see how so many of these characteristics are interrelated. And that for me has been such an eye opener, unpacking, especially unpacking the decisions I've made in the past and kind of how I now show up in my relationship. So I'm very, very grateful for that from a personal perspective as well. She also knows what she's going to say in the seven hour sit down she has with her husband, Matt, tomorrow. I think the last thing too is if we do, if someone has now recognized this, they've listened to this and they're like, holy shit, I'm also Brittany. I also have multiple issues going on at once. What do they do? What are the steps that you're like,

okay, I'm an HFC. I'm doing this in my relationship. Let's put some proactive steps in place. Yes. I like it. Well, first of all, I have a gift, which is proactive. It's an HFC toolkit. it's free. Just go to terricole.com forward slash HFC. That's going to be a beginning because I have so many people who are like, help, where do I start? We already talked a little bit about doing a resentment inventory, right? So that's the beginning is being really honest with yourself. This requires like, there's so much in the book about us becoming intimate with our own emotions because as HFC is so much of the time, we're very familiar with other people's emotions and likes and dislikes. It's like you could have a stadium full of information about other people, but we

don't expect other people to have a stadium of information about us. We're like, I'm fine, whatever. It doesn't matter. I'm fine. And so I feel like we need to be upping our own game with understanding our own emotions. How do I really feel? So the resentment inventory is sort of a quick sort of shortcut for you to look at what relationships might need your attention. where might you be over functioning where might you be not asserting how you really feel so i feel like that's a beginning and then the tool the toolkit will help you it gives you i give you something how to simplify and do less because i feel like as hfc is we're doing too many things i mean there's a whole other conversation here that we can have around burnout but i feel as

though we've probably taken so much of your time but i think that this would be one of the biggest indicators right like women who get to their mid-30s and or 40s or whatever it is and you have this moment in life where you're like I am so fucking exhausted by all of the things but I can't get off the hamster wheel because it's spitting so fast and I can't drop all the balls that I've got in the air at the same time how is burnout so highly interlinked because we can go go, go as HFCs because we actually like never say die. It takes us getting to burnout. Usually it takes us getting to something that stops us where we have to be like, okay, I need to regroup. What is going on? Burnout, when you get there, you're not functioning from your right brain. It's so

exhausting. The fatigue is so enormous and you really start to not care, right? So it's like we go from with HFCs, like too many fucks for too many people for too long. And then like the pendulum just smashes into a rock wall where you're like, no fucks for anybody. Don't care. Literally, I cannot care. It's like, you want to start cutting people out. We want that pendulum to swing back to the middle. So you get to burnout where maybe you don't have any Fs to give to anybody. But when we start to treat ourselves better, take better care of ourselves in a real way, because trust me, I know if you're an HFC, you're probably going to SoulCycle. You're probably going to the gym, you're getting your nails done, you're getting a facial, you're maybe doing

whatever, like in your mind, you're taking care of yourself. But I want you to the taking care that I'm interested in you doing is self consideration, which is before you commit to things before you take on another thing, you two questions you ask yourself, do I have the bandwidth to do this without becoming bitter or overwhelmed? And number two, do I even can want to do it. Like that alone, not wanting to do something is a really good reason not to do it. And I think that as HFCs, we never even consider, we feel like we have to write a dissertation on our no as to why we're not doing something and justify the shit out of it. How about I just don't, it's not my thing or I'm just not up for it. I'm really exhausted. Like let people in on

where you really are and stop making yourself do a bunch of crap you don't feel like doing because that makes you better. Terri, we love having you every time. I can say every time because it is the third time. We'll have you back in six months. I always have a realization and I always take something away. I think today I'm taking away this resentment inventory. I haven't heard of that before and I really like it.

I really like this let's start tracking that ourselves and being a bit more proactive with it instead of just letting it build up and then imploding in our relationships, like all relationships. Terri's book, Too Much, is available now. you can get it anywhere you can get a good book because it is a brilliant book but you can get terry literally everywhere websites instagram podcasts youtubes we'll put it all in the show notes all the links we'll link you to all of terry she's there but thank you so much for joining us again today it was so much fun brit and laura thanks for having me

you