Life Uncut - Can a Narcissist Truly Love You? Unpacking Narcissism with Nova Gibson

Episode Date: October 3, 2023

The term 'narcissist' seems to be thrown around a lot. It seems like a LOT of us have dated one so we wanted to unpack everything about narcissism. Nova Gibson is an expert on narcissistic abuse, the founder of Brighter Outlook Narcissistic Abuse Counselling Service, and the author of "Fake Love."  We unpack: Covert v Overt Narcissists Strategies they use like mirroring, love bombing, the discard process and gaslighting Distinctions between narcissism and psychopathy/sociopathy Is it possible for a narcissist to genuinely love, or are their affections always self-serving? Do narcissists ever change for the next person? Patterns of why people date one narcissist after another You can get a copy of Nova's book Fake Love! You can cast your vote for the Australian podcast awards here! GET TICKETS TO OUR LIVE SHOW HERE  If you have an question please send it on it to life uncut podcast on Instagram hereJoin us on tiktok Or join the facebook group here Tell your mum, tell your dad, tell your dog, tell your friend and share the love because WE LOVE LOVE! xx  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Life Uncut acknowledges the traditional custodians of country whose lands were never ceded. We pay our respects to their elders past and present. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. Hi guys and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Laura. I'm Brittany. And this is a spanner in the works baby because it's Wednesday and you're used to only hearing from us on a tuesday we are mixing things up and we are dropping our interviews now on a wednesday well we're trialing it for the month of october and if it all goes well we'll keep it and if it

doesn't we'll go back to the old format i know it's only day one but i'm vibing it i'm vibing the new setup we're not even a weekend tuesday wednesday thursday a bit of everything you're getting the same amount of content we're just making it easier to access and we have a really good episode today yeah we are talking about narcissism we're talking to nova gibson she is an expert on it she has written an incredible book called fake love but this is a topic that honestly brit i feel like you and i could talk about narcissism for so long because yes because we've both experienced it but also i think so many people experience either being in a relationship with a narcissist navigating a friendship with someone who might have narcissistic tendencies

and also the term narcissism i think gets thrown around so much these days it is such a quick insult for people who behave in a way that may be self-entitled, but there really is a difference between someone who is narcissistic and someone who is a narcissist. And that's something that we're very much unpacking on this episode. Yeah. And we had these big grand plans with Nova to talk about narcissism in relationships, but then also narcissism in the workplace and with family members as well. Like we wanted to cover it all, but we got a bit carried away and we went really deep in the narcissism and relationships chat so what we've decided to do is do just this episode relationships based and then Nova is going to come back and we're going to get into narcissism

in the workplace and family as well so those episodes are going to be coming in the very near future yeah like a part two and part three well the reason for that and I mean I don't even know if it was like that we're obsessed with it but I just feel like there's so I am I take it back but there's so much to it and I think the more that we started to unpack narcissism in romantic relationships, the more that we realized we would be doing ourselves a disservice to try and pack everything into one single interview. And I think people are going to need and want different things out of it. Like if you're dealing with a parent who is narcissistic, that's a very different set of expectations and rules and ways to address it than what you would

if you were dealing with someone in your romantic life who was a narcissist. So that's why we kind of broken this up over three separate apps. Now, before we get into that, now I know there's a 99.99 chance that you have your phone in your hand right now oh you're listening to it on your phone i can see you podcast i'm gonna assume it's on your phone if you could do us the biggest favor please can you go to the podcast awards the australian podcast awards and vote for us life uncut for the listeners choice award so i know we've said it before but this comes around every year it's so important to us it is our oscar for the podcasting awards and there's a whole bunch of categories that people get nominated for and we never get nominated in our category but we can

win the listener's choice which is your vote and for Laura and I it's it's the one that we really care about because you guys are the ones we care about you know so if you could type in podcast awards vote for life uncut for the listener's choice we'd be super super grateful I mean if there's ever been an episode that you've listened to that you've loved if you shared it with a friend or if you've just been on this life uncut ride for the last four years along with us start what you're doing go fire up the podcast awards and swing us your vote also if you don't know this it's kind of annoying because you've got to put the vote in and then you've got to get an email back and then you've got to authenticate your vote it's a two-step it's not annoying it takes

20 seconds yeah but if you don't do the two-stepper it doesn't count you have to confirm in your email make sure you confirm in your email anyways I think what I found really interesting with Nova was the idea of can a narcissist change because I think that's something everybody asks themselves right like are you the person that makes them better and they go on and be better or are they always going to be this person well I'm in the back of this as well like the other part of this is can a narcissist really love you? Do they have the capacity and do they love in the same way that we do? And that is something that we really unpack on this episode. Nova Gibson is the author of Fake Love, Understanding and Healing from Narcissistic Abuse. She's also the director

and founder and primary counsellor of Brighter Outlook Narcissistic Abuse Counselling Service. Nova has a Bachelor of Social Science specialising in behaviour and today, well, she's here to talk about narcissists with us. Nova, welcome to Life Uncut. Hi, guys. Thank you so much for having me. No, thanks for coming on. Laura and I have like a weird, sick obsession with talking about narcissism. It's how the podcast started four and a half years ago. We bonded over narcissists and the love has sort of stayed with us ever since. We've done an episode a few years ago on it and we thought, you know what? It's time to delve deep again. Yeah, like when you say that, it really is how the podcast started. We both had our own experiences dating someone

two different people, not the same person, but who were, we think, narcissists because we experienced all of their telltale signs. And it's something that we'll get into with you, this idea that it's almost up to the person to try and unpack whether the person they're in a relationship with is a narcissist because often it's so undiagnosed. But before we speak about all of that, Nova, I'd love to know what your accidentally unfiltered story is. Okay, so not many people know this, but before my practice started to expand, I was actually training students in diplomas of counselling. And it was online. And one day, one of my children had called me to ask what we were having for dinner, like right in the middle of a busy day.

And I was speaking to one of my clients and I was typing away, well, I think he was like a middle aged uh gentleman really nice old guy and I got distracted so right at the end of the call I said okay love you bye so I got off the phone and I'm like oh my goodness I just told a client that I love them so um because that's the standard thing that you crossing the boundaries yeah exactly not the kind of thing that a counselor is supposed to be saying uh to their clients but I had to ring that man back and go, you know what? I really don't love you. You are a lovely guy, but I was just talking to my son and that's just the way we end phone calls. Bright red face. And yeah, I never lived it down at work. The fact that I told a client that I, that I love them.

This is very unprofessional of me. I do not love you. I just want to make it very, very clear. Exactly. I think you're a lovely guy and you're worthy of love, but I don't actually love you. that was an accident. All right, well, let's get into it, Nova. Why was it that you wanted to write the book Fake Love? Why did you want to write a whole book on narcissism? I wrote Fake Love. I've been meaning to do it for a long, long time. I wanted to put all my thoughts down on paper that I had been counseling people around for 10 years or so, but it all started with my own experience. That's the reason I started to specialize in narcissistic abuse recovery for victims because when I sought help there was none I went to all the usual places and although the

psychologist I saw was absolutely lovely it just seemed like they had no idea and I felt like I was telling them what was going on and I felt quite patronized because they were saying things like well it sounds like you're codependent and I'm like oh no this has nothing to do with codependence So then I went through my own healing journey to heal my own trauma and discovered that victims were just crying out for assistance. There was just no one in my profession who really, really got it, who understood the insidious dynamic of narcissistic abuse. So I started specializing in it and then I decided to write the book. So I'd have everything I tell everyone and support everyone with all that information in one place.

I'll never forget when I, I mean, we've spoken about loads on this podcast in the past, but I'll never forget when I went through the relationship that I did. And then it was when everything was unraveling and like, it didn't make sense. And I remember reading something about narcissists and I remember reading about the kind of steps about the discard process and the invalidating. And I remember seeing this article and reading through it. and it was like someone turned the light bulb on. It was so instant that I was like, oh my God, that's what it is that I'm dealing with. That put into words what I've been experiencing.

The behavior is a textbook, aren't they? Yeah. And you had what I articulate in fake love. You had your light bulb moment. And the fact that you're starting to Google their behavior and you're hearing that word and it's having that, you know, massive impact on you, like a veil has been lifted, is a huge red flag in itself. Because when you're in a healthy relationship, you don't tend to, you know, start googling your loved one's behavior. And everyone has to wait till they have their own light bulb moment. And that's when the journey starts. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to leave because of very powerful connections that have been set up with your abuser, such as that

very powerful trauma bond, but it's the start, the penny drops. Do you think as well, I mean, now we are speaking more and more about narcissists, about narcissistic behavior. Do you think that the word gets thrown around too much, that it almost invalidates how severe it can be? Absolutely. And that has been going on for such a long time. It's a buzzword. And I think that makes it very, very difficult for victims because it minimizes their experience. society tends to think that narcissists are someone who looks in the mirror all the time they're arrogant they brag a lot and what that means is you can see them coming but most of the

beautiful clients that I work with their loved ones are what we call covert narcissists and there is so much more to them than looking in mirrors which really relates to what we call an overt narcissist. So what's covert? Covert narcissists can be actually shy, quite introverted. They can be charismatic to the outside world and their abuse takes place often on a very passive aggressive level behind closed doors. They can be quite anxious because they are sometimes shy and the opposite of an overt narcissist. This is how they infiltrate your your life so easily you know they put on the charm and you don't pick them as someone who's going to abuse you so then how if covert narcissism is i'm assuming it's a they're a bit

smoother and it's a bit more low-key and not everyone is seeing it like you said people aren't seeing it coming yeah how does the overt narcissist present are they also love bombing and doing all these subliminal low-key sort of measures to infiltrate your life or are they more like in your face. They use the same strategies. They will mirror you. They will mesmerize you with grandiose gestures of love and commitment. The mirroring you where they mirror your best qualities back to you. So you think you've met your soulmate. They use those same strategies, but the covert narcissist is more passive aggressive and you don't see them coming essentially. When you say that somebody has this personality type and they follow such a similar

pattern of behavior that we see on repeat. It's almost like colored by numbers to be this version of a person, but how does someone become a narcissist? You're like, are you born with it? Yeah. Are you born with it? Is it environmental? Yeah. So the exact cause is not known, but much research tends to center around, as you said, Laura, around environmental influences such as previous trauma or the flip side of that, where they're overindulged and there's no consequences. There's no rules. They get

rewarded for bad behavior. And some research will also link in genetics as being responsible for that personality disorder developing, but the exact cause is not actually known because if you think about it, a narcissist does not think there is anything wrong with themselves. I was just about to ask you, does a narcissist know they're a narcissist? Well, a narcissist thinks they're special. A narcissist has this grandiose view of themselves, whether they are overt or covert. They think they're superior. That's one of the major traits of a narcissist. So are they going to admit that they're a narcissist? Well, unless they're one of those absolutely highly malignant narcissists who could care less about

being called that name. Most narcissists are not going to admit that because that would be to admit being flawed and to have some kind of deficit, some kind of weakness. So a narcissist does not view themselves as having a problem. It's everyone else that has the problem. And of course, it's probably the only disorder where the actual person with the disorder is not negatively impacted by it's everyone around the narcissist who is in therapy. So yeah, it's an interesting question that I get asked a lot. Do they know? Well, they know that they're different in terms of they think they're special. And if someone just doesn't worship them, that's just because they're misunderstood. They just haven't seen their special qualities because they're so below them.

So speaking of disorders, how does narcissism differ or intersect with other disorders like sociopathy or psychopathy? Because I used to throw the term back in the day, sociopath, I used to throw that around a lot, like he's a sociopath. What are the differences? Yeah, well, the terms do get intertwined a lot, but research says that a narcissist, well, they all fall into what we call the cluster B personality disorders, okay? And sociopathy and psychopathy fall into a category that we call antisocial personality disorders now the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is that a psychopath is born okay so studies have actually shown you know differences in the wiring i guess in their brain where a

sociopath is made you know perhaps they were brought up by a very abusive intolerant parent who has created that sociopath through role modeling and the environment. So that's the difference between a sociopath and a psychopath. One's born, one's made. But the difference between the antisocial personality disorders and a narcissistic personality disorder is NPD is driven by shame. The narcissist has this massive internal shame that they're forever trying to hide. that's why they form this mask of superiority with their false self, we call it, because they're trying to bury that true self, which is weak and wounded and vulnerable. And they crave the attention and the admiration of other people to maintain their ego and keep that vulnerability

and weakness at bay. A sociopath and a psychopath, on the other hand, they don't need attention. They regulate their own ego. They regulate their own emotions so they won't get anxious. They don't care what people think about them. They will be very impulsive, very reckless, engaging in behaviors to get what they want. Crimes because they don't think about the consequences. It's about getting what they want and they don't care what other people think. Whereas a narcissist will experience massive anxiety. If they think that someone is thinking badly of them, that will create a massive narcissistic injury and they have a hairline trigger for criticism, which is very different to the antisocial personalities. Is that not like almost a contradiction though,

this idea that someone who is narcissistic sees themselves in such a grandiose way, they see themselves as special, but then also implicitly feel as though they carry the shame. How do those things kind of function side by side? Well, the dysfunction lies right there, Laura, in that this mask of grandiosity and superiority and sense of entitlement is to mask that shame. It's kind of like a shield of armor that they develop to never be weak and vulnerable again. and this is why they are devoid you know of empathy and remorse because they are considered weaknesses so you have empathy for someone else you can get hurt so when they develop this disorder

whenever that happens I guess that empathy switch so to speak switches off that's the trade-off and humans devoid of empathy in an adult body that's a scary thing yeah it makes me think because like and I guess if for anyone who's ever been in a romantic relationship with someone who is truly narcissistic you almost sometimes see these moments of vulnerability and so you see that as your entry point like I remember in my relationship it was very much like he could be this version that I hated but then he also had this weakness or like this vulnerability about him that I was like if only we could crack into that and I think that that is often when you're in a relationship with someone you see those little parts of them and then you keep on trying

the chip away so that they can be that person, but they don't have the capacity to. No, exactly. So those little breadcrumbs of that person that you were seeing, that is what victims cling on to, victims of narcissistic abuse, because it feels better. We experience what we call cognitive dissonance, where we dismiss the mountains and mountains of abuse, because that feels bad. So and we cling on to these breadcrumbs, which remind us of that person, that person that doesn't exist, that we fell in love with, because that feels better. And our brain, it sounds very strange, but our brain is wired for safety, not happiness. So it wants to, I guess, bring us back to a state of equilibrium by getting rid of all those horrible

feelings which comes when there's conflicting information. I love this person, but they're abusing me. So it gets rid of the mountains of abusive evidence, so to speak. And to do that, though, you have to make the abuse okay, which brings the victims to engage in coping mechanisms such as minimizing the abuse. They don't know what they're doing. Maybe I can help them. You know what maybe it was my fault i haven't been having enough sex with them lately so you know that's why they went and cheated and of course especially the covert narcissist is going to play the victim all the time and they will use their victimhood which is kind of what you suggested there laura they'll use their victimhood to pull your empathy strings because yeah they know that you have that

empathy and they will use that empathy as a weapon against you. The other thing that you have to be mindful of is that people who love you don't abuse you. Whether there's a percentage of time that's only 10%, 20% where they're abusing you, that's 10, 20% too much. It should be zero, but victims will offset the 10, 20%, whatever it is of abuse because the 80% when they're not abusing them feels like heaven because it is heaven compared to a normal relationship? No, but because the abuse has ended. No, but you just said something that I want to go back to for a second. You said our brain is actually wired more for safety than happiness. I think that's going to be surprising to a lot of people. I was surprised by that. I always thought that we as humans sought out

happiness probably over anything else, especially you would think why people might say in a narcissistic relationship, they're not safe. But those 80% moments of happiness, I would have thought is why people stay. So generally speaking, we're made to seek safety before happiness. Well, when you're experiencing trauma in your life, your brain is going to want to keep you alive. So you've got to survive that trauma. So your brain's number one job is to keep you alive. it's to keep you safe so all of those terrible feelings the literal chemicals that pulsate through your body the cortisol that are pumping when you are walking on eggshells in that state of fight or flight that keeps you safe in the trauma but when we're without and we'll get into

this later but this chemical cocktail that is associated with the trauma bond our brain wants the dopamine back again. It wants to get rid of all that horrible cortisol. It needs, just like a heroin addict in cold turkey or withdrawal from the drug, it craves another hit of the drug because they love the drug. No, because they want the withdrawal to end. So this is the same principle where our brain wants to get rid of the horrible withdrawal from that which we've become addicted to without knowing it and get rid of those horrible withdrawal symptoms you also said often the reason why you get so hooked in these relationships is because they're so magical at the start they really are they're unbelievably perfect yeah too good to be true some may say

yeah and the chemistry is there and this feeling of truly finding your soulmate this like unbelievable match which comes about and then it's this process where they start behaving in a way where you're like, I don't even know who that person is. I can't even recognize that person. And so you're constantly trying to get back to what you originally had. But you said that that's not real. How do you almost recognize or come to terms with the fact that that's not real? Because it feels so real. And for such a long period, it can be very, very real. And I know that that process and that length of time can be different for all different people. Yeah, it is very real for each victim. This was a real relationship. You don't know that it's

one-sided until you have your light bulb moment. And even then it takes time and lots of support. I think that that realization that this person doesn't love you because people who love you don't do what they did to you. They don't abuse you in such a horrific callous way, But it is the most painful realization. You feel like you lost yourself. You were used. You were conned by this person. And it takes a lot of time to really come to terms with the fact that this person was duping you. But with lots of support and seeing it in front of you, I get people to journal the abuse so they can see what this person did to them. You can see that someone who loves you, well, number one, the grandiose gestures in the beginning, that's not normal.

So that's a red flag. If you experience those fireworks in the beginning, I'm not to say that it doesn't happen once every blue moon, but for the most part, that's not normal to become enmeshed with someone that quickly and experience that soulmate effect. And that's because it's manufactured. So you fall in love with that illusion of that person. But your biggest clue when you have that light bulb moment that it wasn't real is because someone who is capable of loving you with that intensity does not suddenly rip the carpet out from underneath your feet and do a complete shape shift. People who love you do not do that. And this is where you experience such confusion because your prince or your princess is gone and you don't know why and

you want them back. Is a narcissist actually capable of love? Okay. I get asked that a lot. And what my standard answer to that is, it depends what your version of love is. You know, my version of love, which I'm assuming would be the same as yours, is someone who loves you unconditionally, supports you, has compassion, empathy, does not intentionally try to make you feel insecure. You know, we all have isolated incidents where we can snap at someone. We might have a bit of a bad day, but these are ongoing, consistent patterns of behavior over time, which therefore forms their personality. So they know the value that everyone else like you and I place on that word. So they throw the word around a lot, but it doesn't, it's not backed up with

action. So if you look at what they do, where they flip and they flop and they go like a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, that's not what love looks like. That's what manipulation looks like. So to answer your question, I would say no. Love is just a word they use because they know the value that other people place on it and they use it to manipulate people. Do you find a real recurrent pattern with people once they've dated a narcissist and then they're trying to move on that they either want to constantly be picking fights or having this tumultuous relationship moving forward because that's what they're used to and that's what they need or that people are just avert to even going into a new relationship. What are your patients like in terms of their

recovery from a narcissist in a romantic relationship? Yeah, both, Britt. Many people who haven't got the support or haven't really understood narcissistic abuse will find themselves straight back in another narcissistic relationship. And if you think about it, it kind of makes sense because as you know, at the end of these relationships, you are rock bottom. There's no closure you're blamed for the abuse you're an empty shell you're lost and here comes another narcissist sensing your core wounds and they make you feel better they're loving you that I would never do that to you so they're healing the wound from the last narcissist and of course you haven't had the support around to understand narcissistic abuse and what that love bombing actually is.

And you're not looking out for red flags. You just want to feel better. But you were betrayed at a soul level by someone you loved so much. How can you go on and trust someone else again? And that's why it's so incredibly important to get the right support because you are going to meet another narcissist. They are everywhere. It's a pandemic out there. We don't have to worry about COVID. We've got to worry about narcissism. COVID's over. The NPD pandemic has begun. So they are out there. You are going to meet another one. But as your healing journey progresses and your boundaries are up here and they become rock solid and you do not override your instincts, you trust your gut. When you see a red flag,

remembering you're not going to pick it immediately most of the time when you see that red flag it will be a deal breaker and you will get your nike shoes on that's the difference because you've got to expect to meet another one the difference will be not you it's not a matter of trusting others you'll trust yourself i think that this is a fear right people often think oh they're going to go into the next relationship and they're going to be better they're going to go in the next relationship and they'll make that person happy and they'll live happily ever after and why couldn't to have been with me. It is probably the one thing, well, one of the one things I hear from everyone. You think about it, you've been abused, you've been given no closure, you're feeling

insane, you're a shell of yourself, you're most probably still addicted, trauma bonded to your abuser. And you're seeing them immediately discarding you or if you've managed to escape, not looking back like you're just something on the bottom of their shoe. And here they are with the next soulmate. You've been blamed for the abuse. You've developed some coping mechanisms to apportion blame to yourself, not forgetting you reacted in ways that you're not proud of in the reactive abuse. What if this person's not like you? What if the next target is not crazy like, in inverted commas, you are? You've been conditioned to feel that way. What if they give that person that love bombed you? What if that person remains for the whole time and this new

target is not as messed up as I am? Every victim thinks this way, but as sure as the sun comes up tomorrow, the love bombing must finish. And they will go through exactly the same cycle because that over the top love bombing period is not sustainable. It's got to be about them. And as soon as they know that their new victim is hooked and they're not going anywhere, that's when they will have the carpet pulled and they will be struggling to get their soulmate back. So they never, ever change for the next person. But this is what also the narcissist thrives on is it's like a smorgasbord. They've got your pain. They think you're pathetic. You're so weak because you're crying and you deserved what you got anyway. And they're getting, the new target is

reflecting back to them how amazing that, because that's what they're perceiving of the narcissist who is love bombing them. So they've got your negative supply. They've got the new target's positive supply. And here they are on this pedestal, just thinking that they're it in a bit. Can you talk us through what a trauma bond is? Because this is so instrumental as to why people stay in narcissistic relationships. And it's almost like all of their friends and family around them may recognize how toxic that relationship is, but you become almost addicted to the volatility, the highs and lows of the relationship. Yeah, you do become addicted, Laura. Trauma bonding is essentially an addiction. So I'm just going to touch very briefly on what

happened to the victims in Stockholm, because this just solidifies what happens for narcissistic abuse victims. So trauma bonding is another word for Stockholm syndrome. So a bank was held up, I think, going back to something like 1976 in Stockholm, Sweden. Now, the terrorists took, I think, four hostages. They kept them for like four or five days. What happened there was they were isolated from their loved ones, from the community for four or five days and nights. they were terrorized they were told they were going to die but as the terrorists spent more time with the victims the victims started to humanize them they were making them comfortable they were getting them cups of tea they were talking about their own lives in other words

the victims started to humanize the terrorists they've just had a bad past they're not really bad people what was actually happening here was that the terrorists had put them in fear for their life, but getting them isolated on their own and all of the strategies they used, especially ending the terror and making them feel better, which felt like heaven, you can imagine. To these victims, it created this very, very powerful trauma bond where the victims were experiencing rock bottom lows followed by major, major highs, which replaced the rock bottom lows. So there was this chemical cocktail going on in their bodies. And in the end, it was just perceived highs where there was nothing really nice going on. It was just that the abuse had ended.

Now, this rollercoaster of emotions where the abuser abuses you and then becomes the only one to be able to heal the wounds they created, which is your withdrawal, essentially the pain of not having that rollercoaster in your life. Your abuser becomes the only one who can heal the wound. So when you come out or you think of being without your abuser, you essentially flatline your what am I if I haven't got, you know, that roller coaster in my life again, it's the equivalent of the heroin addict having their drugs flushed away and the victim literally craves their abuse or just a glimpse of them just to unblock them because they love them. No, because they want that horrible anxiety that builds and builds and builds and builds until they unblock and then they experience relief from the withdrawal. So that's where this very powerful attachment forms that the victims don't understand themselves, let alone someone outside of the relationship, because it defies logic that you,

on a logical level because this has got nothing to do with a lack of intelligence or weakness and it's got everything to do with the insidious nature of their abuse and creating this addiction under like an iceberg under the level of awareness so it's like someone if you can imagine in your sleep someone comes and puts heroin in your body every night you don't know it's happening and all of a sudden one day you know a few weeks you're you're craving heroin you'll literally crawl along on your hands and knees just for a whiff of it to end the withdrawal. This is what's happening when you're craving your abuser and you think you love them. You don't love them because love feels good. It's just that it feels so painful to be without them. That's not love. That's addiction.

I recognize this because I even remember, I remember going through one of our mini toxic lows and I thought the relationship was going to end. And I remember pulling over on the side of the road and having a full blown panic attack because of where we were at. And I've never experienced that in another relationship. And I could never imagine experiencing that in my now relationships, but that became so normal. It became so normal to have this like unbelievable anxiety around what if they're going to leave? It is absolutely the same thing. And there was actually studies where people that were in that heist and other kidnapping scenarios went out to seek adrenaline seeking activities because they

without this walking on eggshells and this roller coaster of you know being in a constant state of fight or flight there was just emptiness they didn't know how to cope how to survive I remember when my relationship ended it was two years and there's a so much went on about that we've spoken about a lot on the podcast but there's a lot of stuff that happened that I will never speak about because it was just too intense and too bad but I remember when it all came out I'm embarrassed and ashamed to say it but if it wasn't as bad as it was if this one extra thing hadn't happened I would have gone back a hundred percent knowing the abuse that I had put up with I remember thinking if only I didn't find that part out because I probably could have accepted

the rest of it like in my head it wasn't as bad and I look back now in hindsight and I'm like oh my god addictions are not rational are they the gambling addict for instance who knows they lost their house and their family rationalizes away how that wasn't as bad as it really was to get the dopamine back again to get another fix so what happened to you brit and to every victim is that over the course of time with the insidious erosion away that you didn't know was happening of your boundaries and your sense of self, you developed a threshold for abuse that was sky high and a threshold for respect that was on the floor. And you can't fall off the floor. That's as low as you can go. And that example that you gave is so normal and so common. And I hear people saying to

me, they've just told me about these absolutely hideous betrayals and domestic violence. And they say to me yeah but he didn't do this or she didn't do this and I'm like you're waiting for that to be the defining moment I don't say that because I get it I understand it no but I remember saying he loved me he loved me still to other people I was like he just loved me differently like he just loved those other people as well but I still was justifying I was like it was real it's just he loves differently. That's your brain minimizing the abuse, rationalizing it away. That's your cognitive dissonance kicking in to make the abuse not as bad as it is. Remember I was saying earlier that our brain dismisses all of the abuse and therefore we have to make the abuse not as bad

as it is because the thought of being without that is just overwhelming. Something you said about the erosion of boundaries over time and your self-respect being so far down on the floor that there's nowhere else to go I think for anyone who's been in a narcissistic relationship they will really identify with that because it's almost like you get to a point where you're like how am I tolerating this I never would have tolerated this before but it becomes so normal that you will tolerate even worse if you are somebody who's in a narcissistic relationship what are your options like what do you do is there ever going to be something that you can do to get that person to change or is your only option to walk away your only option is to walk

away unequivocally run run run get those nike shoes or whatever the latest brand is yeah no sponsor get those running shoes on well maybe they will now who knows get those running shoes on and leave i say this over and over again in fake love your job is not to fix your abuser and learn to risk manage their abuse, your job is to leave. You can re-evaluate whether you think they're a narcissist or not from a distance where you'll have more perspective. But just quickly, I wanted to just touch on reactive abuse because this is what every victim engages in. And it's another thing that makes them feel responsible for the abuse. Maybe they deserved it. They're getting told by the actual abuser the actual narcissist that they're a narcissist which is even more

confusing they start to buy into it because they did act crazy at times they did act volatile and guys this i just want all your listeners to know that whatever you did this is normal it's irrational those those crazy behaviors we go through when we're being provoked until we finally reach that threshold, which is where the narcissist wants you to be, they manipulate you to engage in that reactive abuse. These volatile behaviors that you feel so remorseful about are normal, irrational, but normal given the context of your abuse and the difference between you reacting to the abuse and the abuser abusing you, which can be very hard for outsiders to understand let alone the victim when the outcome is the same the difference is in the motivation

where the narcissist is intentionally baiting you provoking you until you finally erupt in that isolated incident some behavior that's so far removed from your character and then they go gotcha you're the abuser then they might video and get the camera out put it on tiktok and then there'll be a trial by TikTok for you. How powerful is silence when dealing with a narcissist? How powerful is just shutting down and not engaging? Because if this idea of baiting and trying to get a reaction is the sole motivator, what happens when you stop? Silence is everything, but it's only going to be beneficial to you, especially in the intimate relationship, if you get away. you've got to get out of the environment that's making you sick so to speak but we say silence is

is golden combined with no contact minimal contact gray rock if it's your partner is the parent of your child or it's someone you work with but the narcissist does everything in their power to get you to react they rely on what we call narcissistic supply that's their oxygen that tells them the mask of grandiosity that they wear is real. So that's why they will fly into these narcissistic rages if they even perceive criticism, because what you're telling them when you want to just have a discussion with them about their behavior or talk about your feelings or something they've done, what you're telling them is that mask isn't real. I've seen behind you. You're telling them they're flawed. So you're creating a narcissistic injury. The narcissist will want

to punish you to heal that narcissistic injury. So if you don't react, which it means you're rendering them insignificant in your life, that's like throwing acid in the face of a narcissist. It's infuriating. Yeah, because they're losing control of you. So a very important acronym that I talk about with my beautiful counseling clients is an acronym that we call Jade. And I also talk a lot about this in Fake Love. Probably the most important one you need to know, J-A-D-E, everything the narcissist does and says is to get you to Jade with them, to justify, argue, defend, and there's two E's, explain and give them your emotions. Now, when they're gaslighting you, telling you that the

sky's purple with such conviction and you're trying to get out the screenshots to go no it's not it's blue they already know you're right they want you to go crazy trying to prove it and your reactions are their oxygen so when you cut them off from your reactions that's the worst thing that you can do to them that's not the the goal the goal is not to get revenge or punishment with a narcissist when you do go no contact the goal is to heal you try and get revenge you play their game and they're still inside your head you can't you can't get revenge against a narcissist because they don't have the same emotions as you do so fascinating and i think something that most of us in our lifetime will come across we're going to deal in some capacity

whether it's in a romantic relationship a work relationship or or family a parent or a brother or sister and we definitely if you'd come back nova we want to continue this narcissistic chat with families and parents at a later date absolutely but thank you so much like it's so fascinating to us and every time doesn't matter how much you read every time we learn something else yeah also every time i ever sit down and have these conversations about it it just and i'm sure you've been seeing me shaking my head through this whole thing it's just this constant reminder and I know like Britt and I have said it like I was absolutely fucking crazy in my relationship I was an insane person I was insane you feel insane that is the

job of the narcissist to make you literally feel insane everyone feels the same way because the abuse is just so covert and insidious. And on top of that, everyone else is thinking they're this great person because they're wearing the mask for everyone else. And you're being gaslighted, which means your reality is being distorted over time. So you do not trust what comes out of your mouth. You don't trust what you hear or see. So you feel insane. That's the end result of every narcissistic abuse relationship I don't know if you're the same but I'm assuming but it's the validation as well like as the years go past sometimes I think back to myself and I was like was it that bad was he that bad and then I have these conversations again and I'm like fuck yep

yep no he was yeah and that's why I get victims to write it down so it's tangible and when they're having a craving literally they're feeling like they're going to explode unless they unblock them and look at their new targets, Instagram, and just get a little sneak peek at what they're doing, see if they're happy. It's normal. It's irrational because we ignore all the abuse, but it's normal in the context of your abuse and the powerful addiction, the powerful trauma bond. But you feel crazy and you feel powerless to stop it. Thank you so much. I really do think that anybody who has experienced this type of relationship would absolutely relate to everything that you're saying and also hopefully for somebody

who may be dating a narcissist and is in the throes of the confusing period when that relationship takes a shift might be able to recognize what it is and what's happening to them that's my hope in my book is that you will recognize yourself you will feel validated and you will get out it's I don't care what you did, it was not your fault. There were very specific strategies set up to make you feel the way you feel. But whilst the abuse was not your fault, the healing is going to be on you. Don't wait to change them. I don't care. I mean, it sounds awful to say that, but someone who's been abused as a child, the last thing they would think of is abusing someone else so if you're being abused and that person is using their abuse to abuse you because you know

they they had it tough that is not an excuse you're having your empathy used against you get out regardless and heal yourself and don't go to counseling with them these are not relationship issues they are issues of abuse put your nikes on do them up run away don't look back exactly Thanks so much, Nova. My absolute pleasure. I'll see you on the next one. Guys, we hope that you got so much out of that chat in terms of your romantic relationships

and navigating romantic relationships with a narcissist. Like we said in the beginning, we are going to do part two on this where we're going to be looking at what it is like navigating a relationship with a narcissist when that narcissist might be your mum or your dad or someone in your immediate family who you can't necessarily just walk away from.

If you did get something from this episode or you know someone in your life that could benefit from this because chances are you probably do. Well, statistics say you probably do. Share this with them, point it in their direction, share it on your socials. It also helps us grow, which is really important for us to continue to bring you these episodes

and getting the most amazing guests for you. And on that note, don't forget, tell your mum, tell your dad, tell your dog, tell your friends and share the love because we love love. We'll be right back.