Life Uncut - F-Boys and how to spot em - Uncut with Logan Ury

Episode Date: November 28, 2022

Hey lifers!Today we take a deep dive into the controversy surrounding the latest campaign from Balenciaga.When a brand so consistently flirts with provocative content, are we surprised that they cross the line into child exploitation?When towing the line where fashion meets political/social issues and pushes the boundaries of what is and isn't acceptable, when does a brand go too so far that they risk being entirely 'cancelled?'We unpack whether it's plausible for a brand as big as Balenciaga to have not been across these campaign decisions and how they've benefited so much from similar decisions in the past.Then we are joined by the wonderful Logan Ury!Logan is an author and the behavioural scientist at hinge! She joins Britt and producer Keeshia today to talk all things f*ckboys/f*ckgirls and explain how the concept of the sunk cost fallacy can be applied to relationships.You can find everything from Logan (including the newsletter that producer Keeshia raves about) here: https://www.loganury.com/This episode was brought to you by our wonderful sponsor Dr Lewinn's marine collagen peptide + inner beauty range.We know you guys love a discount code so if you jump on to https://www.drlewinns.com.au/ you can use the code UNCUT20 for 20% off all products!T&CS:To participate apply the qualifying coupon code during checkout to receive the 20% discount off order total (including GST).All orders placed with a qualifying coupon code and qualifying Dr. LeWinn's products during the promotional period will be eligible to receive discount. Promotion valid from November 29th 2022 at 00:01 AEDT concludes on January 29th 2023 at 23.59 AEDT . Postage options are not included in the order subtotal. Offer valid only while stock lasts and not applicable to cancelled orders due to out-of-stock merchandise. Discount not applicable with returned merchandise; total value of discount will be deducted from the value of any returned items. Limit of one discounted transaction per customer. Gift sets are excluded from this promotion. Offer available online only. Customer is responsible for shipping costs for returned merchandise. Cannot be used in conjunction with any other offer. Only available on drlewinns.com.au.Tell your mum, tell your dad, tell your dog, tell your friend and share the love because we love love! xxSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A Life Uncut podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respect to their elders, past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today. This episode is recorded on Gadigal land of the Aurora Nation. Hi guys, and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Laura. And I'm Brittany.

And do you know what I've been dealing with all day? Flatulence? No. Is this a trick question? You know something that you never, you just never wear it on a day-to-day? A stick-on bra. Oh, you do have your hand down your... Look.

Why do you have that? oh because you've got like a little razorback shirt on i've got it yeah i decided to wear a stick on bra but like you know these things are like pretty much a one use only situation and it has been used i saw it on lola's face the other day i've been running this stick on bra for like three oh god maybe three months now i even wore it to the wedding got super sweaty and it has not been stuck to my breasts all day it's been hanging about three centimeters below my every time i bend down one just goes and peels off i didn't know stick on bras was still a thing like do people still where do you even get that from david jones so it's a thing i have so many

of them you know why are you holding it in your hand showing like and look even lol is like unpeeled some of the sticky from the inside of it this looks like it's five years old could be it's disgusting should i but now i'm gonna sit here and do the rest of the record with my nipples your nipples are big right now oh thank you i'm putting my stick on bra back on lucky me anyway we have a great episode planned for you guys where you have a bit of a story that you for some reason won't share with me until we turn the mics on so it better be bloody good i had to just have a laugh just that just this morning this happened i don't know if you guys have noticed you haven't said anything so i don't think you've noticed that my hair has been looking a little bit different like

it's quite lush no but you always have extensions no it's quite shiny though no no okay well i feel like i feel like your hair goes through so many different variations of who it wants to be that When we have a change, it's kind of like when you go through a bad breakup. Most people cut a fringe. Yeah, bad fringe. Brittany just every two weeks changes her hairstyle. I'm either like blonde, short, long extension. No, I have noticed myself this week, right?

I thought my hair was looking really shiny, but I have been taking some hair tablets. So I was like- Healthy, shiny, beautiful hair. And it's been smelling really good, but I don't know why it's been smelling because, you know, in my head, I haven't been doing anything different. I realized that I'd been using a different shampoo and conditioner. I'm one of those people, you know, you don't throw anything. It gets almost empty, right?

a shampoo and conditioner gets almost empty so you don't throw it out you just get a new one and then you just accumulate like 15 bottles in the bottom of your shower that are all slightly moldy we've all seen the inside of your shower britney well it was the inside of yours so yes so there's like 20 bottles of different shit in my shower and i realized this morning i've been using the shampoo conditioner and i was like it just smells so good which one have i been using because i want to obviously know and replace it so i pick up the bottle which is a beautiful ones the shampoos in this beautiful yellow bottle, the conditioners in a beautiful white bottle, very small niche writing

across the front. And I had a look and it said, dog shampoo. I knew exactly where this was going, but I didn't want to take your punchline. I knew it. I've been using Delilah's shampoo and conditioner. It's lemon myrtle. It's perfect for your coat.

It's beautiful. I feel like my mane is really shiny and my coat's very healthy, but I've been using it for, I reckon, about eight days before I looked. So do you think that it's worth reinvesting in a second lot of it and just continue? No one's going to shame you for using dog shampoo. First of all, I'm going to blame my cleaner.

I think my cleaner put it in the shower. I think they also didn't know. Because I have it in the bath in my second bathroom because that's where I often will wash Delilah. So how empty were these bottles that you decided? Were they full bottles? No, they're full ones. Okay, right.

Because I was going to say, surely unless you're not the one who ever washes your dog, like surely you would have been like, oh, these look very similar to the bottles I used to wash Delilah. No, they were a new one I hadn't used on Delilah yet. so I've been using lemon myrtle but like it's very Sydney like you would not know there's no picture of a dog on there because I know people at home are thinking do you not remember when I fed my nephew dog treats not knowing that they were like these organic it was not intentional

but they were like these beautiful organic like farmer market they were sent along with human food there was like a little packet of trial dog treats in there and they were like donut shaped and I just assumed they were cookies and I gave them to my nephew and they were really bougie eastern suburbs dog treats yes and i remember we had a listener that must have been a year or two ago but they wrote in they lived in japan and they couldn't read they couldn't speak the language yet and they couldn't read what they were buying so they were buying like dog and cat treats because it was like real bougie packaging and they didn't know until one of their local friends came over and literally saw them eating the thing and they're like what are you doing she had no idea

she's like i thought these were delicious snacks she was like putting them out for her friends and everything do you know what i think it goes to show more so than us just being revolting and not able to like read the packaging maybe the standard is now too high for our pets i feel like you're speaking to me when you say that delilah does eat air fried salmon like human grade salmon but apart from that she has her meatballs in there as well now she's been eating really well i did give her okay i learned one i had a made a grave error i gave her tie you're gonna kill her you You cannot give a dog's tie. A dog's tie.

You can't give a dog's tie. Spices, onions, garlic. It's a terrible idea. It went straight through her. You'll kill her. I think that's what happened. You know how I had to throw my rug out because she shat on it? I think that was from the tie.

What kind of tie were you giving the dog? It was just the chicken out of the tie, right? I would never give her all the onion and stuff. I know she can't have it. What I gave her was what I thought she could eat. I'm not irresponsible, but I think I gave it to her with some rice as well. I think the sauces must have just been coating the chicken still too much. Oh, yeah.

Oh. That shit's infused. Oh, explosive diarrhea. Thai spice. Thai spice. That's when I usually hand her over to Keisha and I'm like, Keisha, I need some dogs in here. Sorry, Keisha.

Well, I don't know if you're going to start a trend with this one, Britt. I don't know if people are going to start taking on using dog shampoo. Well, I mean, it is all – Despite how luminous and luxurious your hair looks. No, it's beautiful and it's all natural and organic because it's good for the dog. So what's good for the dog is good for me, I think. All right. Well, something else that's probably better for humans is our sponsor on today's episode.

That is Dr. Lewin's Marine Collagen Peptide and Inner Beauty range. Now, if you are wanting to incorporate more collagen into your life for healthier skin and healthier hair, their Marine Collagen Peptide Inner Beauty liquid shots could be for you. Yeah. Now, this is really great if you're the kind of person that doesn't like tablets or powders, which I'm not a huge fan of tablets, but I will do it. This is the answer because it is like a little concentrated shot.

You don't have to go and pile up the tablets. so it's absolutely perfect. Do you know what I do? I mix my tablets in with honey. I used to do that too but I was like a child. Yeah okay I still do it like a grown five-year-old. Before we get into what today's episode is about we are talking to well actually I'm not speaking to Logan Urie today Brittany and Keisha did an interview recently with relationship expert Logan Urie. She's from Hinge. She's their coach. She's amazing. We've had her on the podcast before but we did this there was only one time that Logan was available. It was about a week or two ago but it was when Laura got married. The reason why having Keisha fill in on this interview, that was so perfect timing is

because this conversation is all around fuck boys. Sorry, Keisha, not that you are only attracted to fuck boys, but like, why are we attracted to fuck boys and Keisha and Brittany? And the other part of this is around the sunk cost fallacy. Now, something that we've touched on on this podcast before is this idea that if you're in a relationship, it's safe. You kind of know what you know, and you know what you're getting, that it's easier and better to stay in it than it is to risk that relationship for something better when you're not happy. It's like people who stay in relationships long past they're used by date, just because the fear of starting again is so great. And Logan, she's an author. She's a behavioral scientist. She does work for Hinge

as a dating coach. She knows her stuff. So she's the most perfect person to talk to about this. But anyway, something I want to speak about before we get into the interview with Logan Urie is something that I'm sure so many of you have seen in the news and across social media in the last couple of days and that is Balenciaga and their wildly controversial campaigns that have come to light in the last week or as I like to think of it they're what the actual fuck campaign what the actual fuck what the actual fuck were Balenciaga thinking now so for anyone who doesn't know what we're talking about basically this all started last week there was a campaign that was launched and it was a teddy bear BDSM style teddy bear that was modeled by a child a little girl

standing in different areas within a room that was kind of like a lounge room and surrounding her were empty wine glasses and also other objects that could pertain to being sex toys. Now it has been very widely criticized and there's also been a secondary campaign that's come to light. Now this has come to light in the last week as well and this is a picture of the collab that was done between Balenciaga and Adidas and it's a flat lay image of a handbag and court documents like paperwork it's obviously taken in what's meant to be like a lawyer's office on the desk yeah it looks very busy like very important this really nice designer handbag with someone that's you know got a lot to do and one of the pieces of paperwork that's brought out on the desk

is actually a court document from the 2008 supreme court ruling on child pornography now when you layer these things together when you look at the images around the bdsm teddy bear that features this little child and then you look at this separate campaign that has court ruling documents around child pornography it really is hard to kind of argue the case that this isn't trying to sexualize children well it's not even one child Laura it's there's a few different girls in this campaign shoot it's not even just one like they've gone out of their way they've got multiple little models and they put them in multiple different compromising positions it's disgusting and it's hard to look at for me this doesn't take an eagle-eyed sleuth to discover

this to unpack it you look at the photo there's only one real piece of information you can read in the photo like all these pages are scattered everywhere and there's this one piece of information they're not dumb they're one of the biggest brands in the world they know someone's going to say wonder what that is that's what people do for some reason unbeknownst to me or anyone in the world we cannot figure it out they have wanted to hone in on this I don't even know what to call it I don't know whether to call it a topic but they've decided to go down this track of involving children and I can't work out why it's almost like we had a discussion about this you and I Laura not that long ago in regards to this new Jeffrey Dahmer Netflix show that took the world by storm we had

a discussion about is it too far is it too much because they are Hollywoodizing the idea of true crime and it's gone to the next level it's so real it's so it made it look so glamorous it was so over the top and I think they're doing the same now with this campaign with Blenciaga it's almost like they need to keep pushing the extremes to be spoken about and i just think this one has gone too far like where do we draw the line if for a fashion brand the only thing that they can think of is i have a brilliant idea let's get a three-year-old or multiple three-year-olds and put bondage bears and court documents relating to like child exploitation yeah child exploitation who in their right mind approved that and this is the thing right there's a lot of blame shifting

brands that are this big there's not one person that sits back and says I have an idea I'll call a photographer let's press go this goes through so many people for approval yeah and I think the thing that's really important about this is not only I guess like it's one thing for a brand to claim ignorance and when you say blame shifting Brit there's been a lot that's happened in the last couple of days where Balenciaga as a brand is suing the creative directing agency. So there's an agency called North Six and they're the ones that were responsible with coming up with the creative direction of this campaign. Balenciaga has opened a $25 million court case against them to try and sue for damages. But as a brand, when your brand has been built on pushing the social

norms, Balenciaga's brand has been built on controversy in the last couple of years and the amount of PR that they get from creating incredibly controversial content this to me is not it's not an accidental oh we didn't know that this was going to be included maybe Balenciaga wasn't aware that that specific piece of paper that specific court document was going to be included but the issue is is that this conversation hasn't come up because there was one image that pertained to child sexual assault the reason why this has become so huge is because when you put the BDSM bear together and you put together the flat lay image it was their overall intention to be shocking and the question is is obviously has this gone too far I think in the court of

public opinion the answer is absolutely yes okay this is what frustrates me and where I want to call bullshit is that I do there's like a lot of blame shifting but this is what Balenciaga came out with their statement and said we take this matter very seriously and are taking legal action against the parties responsible for creating the set and including unapproved items for our Spring 23 campaign photo shoot. We strongly condemn abuse of children in any form. We stand for children's safety and well-being. Now, the thing that I'm calling bullshit on is that's all well and good, right?

What they're saying is there were unapproved items that we, you know, so we didn't sign off on it. Someone's taken creative control and done it. That's fine. There is no way Balenciaga releases that campaign without then reviewing the images and saying, yes, it doesn't happen. It will never in a million years happen. So even if someone has gone, I've got this brilliant idea, all this shit wasn't supposed to be in there. Let's put it in there. It still goes back to Balenciaga. They still

tick it off and say, brilliant. That's what we wanted. Thank you. Here's your money. Let's go live. Well, absolutely. And I think also on top of that, for all of these high fashion designer creative concept campaigns, there are so many cooks. There are so many eyes on this creative because nothing walks out of the door of a high-end fashion brand that hasn't been scrutinized over. There's so many millions of dollars that go into creating these ad campaigns. So I think to try and shift the blame is a way of trying to save face. I also thought it was very interesting. Not only is Balenciaga trying to shift blame and say that they weren't aware that there was items that they didn't have full insight or overview over that were included in the campaigns. The thing is

they're only trying to sue North Six for that one image, for that one document that was included. Nothing has been said about the BDSM bear and the inclusion of children, because obviously they were completely across that campaign. So that is not a leg to stand on for them to be able to sue in that. Now, this comes back to what we just spoke about in terms of high-end fashion brands, really pushing controversial concepts as part of their ad campaigns as a way of generating PR. I guess the thing that I think is really interesting is that fashion has a long history of sexualizing children, not in such obvious ways, but in terms of like using very prepubescent young girls to model what should be for an adult. Now, obviously this is well and truly gone far

past that because it is a toddler modeling something that has been created for an adult, but it's blurring the line between what is for a child and what is something that we see as being very sexualized they did do a homeless range and i'm using that inverted commas balenciaga in conjunction with kanye west that was inspired by for want of a better word homelessness which is absolutely wild and so out of touch you think of the people that are collaborating and making this range a billionaire it's like a billionaire company a billionaire individual that have come together and said what i feel like is let's take the piss a little bit here well i don't think it's taking the piss i think it's disgusting yeah but the reason is is to make people angry and by making

people angry it generates this huge pr machine i don't think it's to make yeah make people angry not about the issue at heart though it's just a spark conversation like look at this shoe laura i don't know if you've ever seen their homeless range that shoe is made to just look like somebody and how much they sell it for thousands of dollars yeah it's crazy it's made to look like somebody has not been able to afford shoes for 10 years and have worn the same pair of shoes everywhere they've gone. Do you know, I think we'll put the picture of these shoes up on our social media. We're not going to put up the picture of the child with the teddy. If you guys want to look at it, you can go and Google it yourselves because I don't want to be responsible

for further disseminating that sort of images. But I think like the big part of this as well is, is that it's core to Balenciaga's actual strategy around growing their brand. So in 2015, they bought on a new director called Demna Vesalia. Now Demna Vesalia has been responsible for them taking a far more controversial slant in how they create their content. And interestingly, since Demna has come on board, the sales for Balenciaga has quadrupled. Like the concept of making shocking fashion has definitely been beneficial up until this point. A quote I found really interesting that came in September 2022 from Vogue. Now Demna said, fashion should not please the most important quality is the lack of fear because fear blocks creativity and if

you're trying to please then you're never going to make it you should instead not please now i think we can all agree that demna has well and truly achieved the objective of creating a campaign that was to displease enough people the amount of pr that this has generated for all the wrong reasons is truly unbelievable i think we can all agree that demna is a dickhead demna our mate damn nah is done i don't know like when does cancel culture come into this do we think that balenciaga will bounce back because there are a lot of tweets going around from high profile people saying balenciaga's cancelled in my eyes you know they're on that train but then the world was waiting with bated breath for kim kardashian to release a statement because kim's brand is very

much aligned with balenciaga kim and kanye were all always huge balenciaga fans ambassadors they had very tight ties to the brand. Which also just means that she makes a fuckload of money from the brand. But she has been quiet up until literally today, which is Monday. So that's quite a few days and everyone has been sort of saying where you at, like on her comments, why aren't you commenting? And she came out and said this, I have been quiet for the past few days, not because I haven't been shocked and outraged by the recent Balenciaga campaigns, but because I wanted an opportunity to speak to their team to understand for myself how this could have happened as a mother of four i have been shaken by those disturbing images the safety of children must be held with the highest

regard and anything against it should have no place in our society period i appreciate balenciaga's removal of the campaign and apology in speaking with them i believe they understand the seriousness of the issue and will take the necessary measures for this to never happen again now to me this reads I'm a mother I am not happy with this but they pay me too much so I'm not going to be stepping away from the brand this is how I took it which I think is pretty obvious to say you know they said they're sorry and it won't happen again and we said it before the brand in our eyes as a consumer as someone that's sitting back taking a back seat watching the brand is to blame I can't see how there is a way around that I know there's pointing fingers but like you I mean on a much

smaller scale but you do shoots you're a brand but a much much smaller yeah but you but I guess the idea is you know how they work is it at all possible that this has somehow slipped through a company's fingers of this level I reckon ultimately in this every single player every single person who was in those photo shoots played a compromising part in what the outcome was but the buck stops with Balenciaga because there and as we said their entire brand recently has been based on trying to be controversial in towing that line where fashion meets social issues where it really questions but not only questions it really pushes the boundaries on what is and isn't acceptable within society and I think Balenciaga very much in this instance has taken it so far

that it's going to be at the detriment of the brand being cancelled because there's a difference when you talk about adult concepts and you use children who we are so fiercely protective of because they are the most vulnerable people of our society it's just not something that is open for interpretation the very last thing I want to add is that I do find interesting but they they're covering it very well is Balenciaga have wiped their entire Instagram but they have done that before they've done it since 2021 but usually from what we can see they do it before a campaign is coming out you know a lot of people do that for hype they have done it now but it looks like they've done it after the fact they're saying this is something we always do which is very convenient

around probably the biggest controversy they've ever had but I just find that an interesting move What do you think? Do you think this is going to be the end of Balenciaga? No, I don't. Should it be? Possibly, but I think they will do some amazing PR. It'll be something really positive. They'll do a very safe campaign.

It'll be swept under the rug. They'll make a huge apology. They'll point the finger and Balenciaga will be back on track in a month. I think it's just a little tiny speed bump. And I honestly think that this will, in the future, not now, obviously because this is terribly negative PR that they're receiving, but I actually think, and especially from what we've already seen in terms of them quadrupling their sales figures,

I think controversy for brands that seem untouchable, that have people like Kim Kardashian at the helm, this will in the future result in them actually increasing their sales. Not because people want to lean into the exploitation of children, but there are people who like the exclusivity that comes with it being so controversial. All right. Well, let's get into our favorite part, accidentally unfiltered. All right. You can kick it off, Bria, because I have one that's just real fucking gross there's always one isn't it okay so this literally just happened to me and r.i.p i'm at work with my boss and i've just gone to google something on my phone i've opened up safari and as my boss is looking over my shoulder at my phone with me very

professional the screen that pulls up is juliet allen's sex toy shop last night i was making the most of her 20% off black friday sale so my page was full of beautiful crystal dildos and all sorts of toys I panicked I thought this is me done my boss went really quiet then she said well those are pretty they are very pretty dildos though aren't they crystal crystal dildos what do you do with a crystal dildo do you leave it out under the moonlight to cleanse its aura well then she goes I blame you guys because Juliet was a guest on one of your earlier shows and that's how I got into her crystal dildos so we'll take full responsibility if you want to send your boss our way that is absolutely fine but I think she probably went home and ordered her own by the

sounds of it do you know what I think I want a crystal dildo just like I mean what do you do with it though when you're not do you hide that under your bed or is it so pretty that you put it out on display doesn't put like a good juju in your vagina like a gua shua but for your vagina yeah like do you think it's like it's better for you than plastic or whatever yeah I'm still using dildo from 17 we highly recommend the rose quartz one for anyone who has a latex allergy oh my god so funny so my cleaner i've only just recently gotten a cleaner so i'm still not thinking about it i'm just a grot right like i forget that they're coming because it's new and i've got my invisalign out like my you know like i haven't even put it away i just take it out in the morning

put on my side table because no one's ever here all these little things like that but then i forgot i came home my house was immaculate but then because i had a box of sex toys under the bed they were all neatly put together and off no and i was like no they didn't go under your bed and put the sex toys he cleaned under the entire bed and I'm like that's not no he's very thorough that is like out of bounds for a cleaner things that are under the bed are there because the cleaner is not allowed to touch them to be fair it's probably great it's probably full of dust I mean even the dildo is probably full of dust I haven't used it in a while but he's just there dusting the KY jelly and all of it like cleaning them up no but he had put them all in a nice

little box in the corner which was great okay well look this accidentally unfiltered is actually one that I, it worries me because I feel like a few people are going to relate to it. I'm going to paraphrase it. That's why we love these. They're relatable. I feel like a lot of people have done this. I actually wouldn't mind knowing how many people have done this. Okay, hit me. Okay. Hey girls. So the other week I had my period, which you know. Yes, that's relatable. No big, no big exciting story there. Anyway, I was on day six of my period and I thought, ah, you know, I'd been leaving it a little bit long and thought it was time to change my tampon as you do i go to the bathroom and i thought it just doesn't quite smell right maybe maybe i have bacterial vaginosis

we've all been there so i pull out a tampon only to find that there was a second tampon sitting inside oh i don't know if this is relatable and i absolutely have no idea how long it has been there for well you could probably tell by the level of smell if it was like a skunk I think this is relatable. I think there are so many people who have accidentally done this and I mentioned it and producer Keisha put her hand up. I think that there are people out there that have done this, yes, the double tampon, but I don't think it's common.

I don't think it's a common occurrence. What if you're really tired and you get up in the middle of the night and you think you're taking it out or you're a bit drunk? What if you're drunk changing a tampon? I have never, but I am now, and I know you're against it, Laura, but you haven't given it a crack. I am so pro this Diva Moon cup, like this Pure cup. they are just so good if anyone out there I know you guys are out there if you've used them you're

like preaching to me right now they're like yes it's amazing it's super hard to convert someone I try okay so I went to the chemist and I bought a version of the diva cup it was like an orange one it kind of looks like a bulbous ball and I woke up in the middle of night with pain I felt like I had a tumor it's not right I was dying I was like what is this it's so big it was like putting a tennis ball inside my vagina so my you got you would have got like the really post pregnancy one no I just got the one for women who have had two children and I was like it's not that wide hey well don't brag that you're tighter than others so my sister Sherry was trying to get me to use the moon cup she'd been using it and my close friends had been using it for years before I use

it now I've been using it for a year so they've been using it a long time they would try and try and try and I didn't want to do it because I didn't get it I thought it was gross couldn't understand it I finally said fine I'll try it so I did exactly what you did and I accidentally got the post-pregnancy one because I said to my sister this is awful could barely get it in can't get it out what are you talking about she's like what size did you get I said I didn't know there were sizes I just thought that one size fits all I went back and looked and I got like the real post-pregnancy one which that's probably what you got which is why it feels uncomfortable it was literally like putting I know it was like cutting a tennis ball in half rolling it up and

popping it inside me I could feel everything well if if and I want you to try again Brittany has her moon cup and she like flings it around it's like always in her handbag one day i walked in delilah had it in her mouth like that moon cup is just fucking floating around she'll put it she'll pull it out at lunch and just pop it on the table i have never seen someone flap a moon cup around more delilah did eat one of my moon cups it became one of her favorite toys that's a whole not only did delilah eat it it then just became her dog toy like you'd walk into the house and just have a moon cup on the ground well she loved it i just want to take it from her okay this is going too All right, let's get into the chat with Logan.

Logan Urie is a behavioral scientist turned dating coach. She's the author of bestselling book, How Not To Die Alone, which I probably need to order multiple copies of and have in every single room in my house. She also works as the director of relationship science at Hinge. Logan joined the podcast a bit over a year ago now for an episode called How Not To Die Alone. You can go back and have a look at that if you haven't heard it. Logan, welcome again to Life Uncut. Yay. So happy to be here. Now you did do an accidentally unfiltered last year when you did it and it was bloody brilliant. And you've just now said to us, I don't think I can, the only ones you've got are like really, really, really bad. So you don't want to re-drop another

accidentally unfiltered. Is that right? That's true. Yeah. I feel like I really gave you my, my best story last time. Today, Logan, we would love to talk to you. I mean, it's very fitting for the episode that I'm filling in for Laura on because Britt and I are both single. We're both on Hinge and we're both navigating the dating world and today we want to talk to you all about the sunk cost fallacy, fuckboys and how to get off fuckboy island. I have been on fuckboy island Logan. I have been stranded on this island. We've got passports, we've got citizenship on it, we've got every single type of thing that you could need to stay on fuckboy island. I feel like I was on a boat that sunk and then I had to like swim to save myself and the only place I could swim to was

fuckboy island and no one's come to save me. Oh my gosh that's so true. Logan let's start with what is a fuck boy? Yeah, it's an interesting one because sometimes people are like, oh, like I'm just having casual sex with somebody. Like, is that a fuck boy? And I'm like, no, it's not just about what you're doing. It's about the expectations and if they're leading you on. And so I would say a fuck boy is somebody who shows you enough interest to string you along, but then isn't actually willing to show up and be in a relationship with you. And I do want to say from the beginning, you know, we are saying fuck boy and it has boy at the end, but it could really be anyone it's not a certain gender it's just a great term to kind of describe that person who's

leading you on it makes it seem like they're interested but doesn't want to be in a relationship with you I'm glad you said that because you can definitely have fuck girls too I reckon at some stage I have done that when you if you said to me have you ever been a fuck girl I would have said no as if like I'm an amazing person I'm so nice to everybody but when you crumble not so much I really care about people's feelings generally speaking but when you break it down like you just said and you're like you know it's just that person that that does sort of keep someone around but they're not ready I've definitely done that before I was emotionally unavailable for a very long time but I still liked people's attention so I was like I'll just like hang out with you

sometimes knowing it wasn't going to go anywhere so I think that women can definitely do that as well but why is it you've been talking a little bit recently about this this whole idea of a fuck boy is this just having a real moment at the moment I do this work as a dating coach I do a lot of research where I'm talking to people about dating and I just feel like fuckboys are this obstacle that are really getting in people's way because they feel like, oh, a little bit of attention is better than nothing. And if I date this fuckboy, it's not going to prevent me from finding somebody who does want to date me or I'm going to change this person. And I'm like, if I could just get rid of all these fuckboys, remove them from the dating ecosystem, like so

many more people would find love because when you actually are really single and nobody's coming over and keeping you warm in your bed, that's the motivation you need to go out and find somebody who actually wants to date you. And so I think people think these fuckboys are annoying or frustrating or mostly harmless, but I'm really trying to say to people, here's why they're a problem. Here's why you're addicted to them. And then here's how to get over them. And I'm also talking to people about if you're a fuckboy, here's why and here's what to do about it. So yeah, I've really gone down the deep dive into fuckboys and it's been super interesting. I want to get into that soon to what you were just saying about when you sort of hang on to

someone for too long or keep someone in your life for too long that it's detrimental to your future dating we're going to get into that because that's a real problem someone in this room has that's not me before we do that how can we identify the difference like in the early stages of a relationship between a fuck boy or fuck girl or someone that just wants to have sex and hang out because that is okay yeah it's a great question because you could say like it's early stages of a relationship They don't owe me anything. Like, couldn't this just be somebody that takes a longer time to warm up? So a couple of things that I would keep in mind when you're saying, is this a fuckboy?

So one of them is that their actions and their words often don't match. And so fuckboys, you know, can do a lot of that love bombing behavior where they're like, your birthday's in February, my birthday's in February. Like we have to throw a party together or my roommates are going to love to meet you. And so they're promising you the world. They're talking about the future, but then their actions don't actually match it. and they often cancel dates or just do not show up. Another thing that's a red flag for fuckboys is that the relationship feels like it's always happening on their terms. So it's like you ask

them to do plans and they'll say, oh, you know, I'm busy, but like maybe later that night, or they send you the you up text at 10 PM. And so it's like, they'll see you when it's convenient for them, but they're definitely not willing to put in the effort to mold their lives to incorporate you and then the last two I would say are you know they don't want to put a label on it they're very you know allergic to labels allergic to exclusivity something like that and they're not introducing you to their friends and family I think that's a big one it's like you know they're happy to see you at night or they're happy to spend time with you but they're not really incorporating you into their social life or having you meet the people who are important to them what do you think

about Keisha and I were just having this discussion we might go too into depth but what do you think about someone that just takes like 24 hours to 30 hours to respond to a message when like the messages are just you just generally texting it shouldn't take that long and I know a lot of people are busy do you just think that that's a like I don't really give a fuck about you it's interesting like you might be surprised by the number of coaching clients I've had who talk about texting and how they're bad texters and they worry that people are going to think they're not interested So I've had this with guys who are just like, I don't like texting. I think it's boring.

I like to put my phone away and concentrate on work. And I really just want to like meet up and talk on the phone. I also have had people that are doctors or nurses where they literally can't have their phone out all day because it's not hygienic. And so sometimes there's just people where like they are dating despite their bad dating skills and they do it with everyone in their life. It's not personal to you. And so for those people, I'm like, tell the person from the beginning, I know I suck at

texting. It's not personal. I'm going to do my best. But when this inevitably happens, don't jump to conclusions. So just want to say that there is that group of people. I think when it becomes a problem is when they do it in a way where you feel like you're waiting for them. So you say like, hey, do you want to go out on Saturday? And they say yes. And then Saturday comes and goes and they don't respond to you. And so I'd say there is a group of people who's just pretty bad at texting and you shouldn't read into it. But in general, if you're somebody who wants to be with a good communicator that texts back right away, like that's something that you can filter for and either give the person feedback and see if they'll adjust or say

this person doesn't meet my minimum threshold for how much of a texting response I need. And Logan, what about, you know, something I think I've experienced and I think every single person in the history of existence has experienced is like, let's say you are texting with someone and everything's going great and like, yeah, life can be busy and sometimes they might take a couple of hours to reply or whatever but I feel as though there's this real pivotal moment and you can feel it in your gut but it's not necessarily obvious to the eye like I know that I've had these things where I've gone to Brit I've been like I just don't think this guy's into me anymore like you know he's he sent this message and Brit's like that

message is fine like what are you talking about and I'm like nobody took like an extra 10 hours to respond to what he normally would like there's just these slight changes in behavior that you go oh I think something has shifted I think he's not as into me anymore like what's your advice about those types of situations it should you always go with your gut is it always accurate or do you think it's overthinking of things like lots of people do yeah those situations are so hard like I feel like even though I'm married that's definitely something I think about in my social life or my work life like for example the other day I passed one of my housemates and she gave me what I thought was a dirty look. And then I started freaking out like, oh, she's mad

at me and just like went into a super spiral. And I talked to one of our other housemates and he was like, these are all the things that have happened to her in the last few weeks. Her look had nothing to do with you. And I was like, I wish that we could all wear a post-it note on our head that said, this has nothing to do with you. This has to do with me. And like, it was just such a helpful reminder because I was really spiraling. And so my like overall feeling is just in general, I think we can be very sensitive and we can read into stuff. And we have, you know, there's this thing called the fundamental attribution error. So it's a thing where let's say I am going to a date and I'm late. I know all the reasons I'm late. I'm late because the bus didn't show up.

I'm late because there was traffic. I'm late because my boss ran by my desk at the end of the day and asked me for a favor, right? So I think I'm late because of these external reasons. But when somebody else is late, I just think, oh, they're late because they're selfish. They're late because they're a jerk. And we just start assigning these qualities to them, not thinking about the external circumstances. And so for the question you asked, it's like, if you didn't respond for a while, you'd be like, this was the craziest day. The podcast broke. I had to rerecord. You would know the reasons. But for the guy, you're like, it's a sign. He's not interested. He got back together with his ex, right? And so you just think about that his feelings have

changed. And so sometimes your intuition is right. But before you jump to conclusions, I would give the person a break and see like, does it go back to the way it was? Was there maybe an external factor? And before being too upset about it, I might call out and say like, hey, it seems like you've been really busy lately. Like, is there anything going on? And I think giving them a non-aggressive question so that they can answer and let you know, like that helps you make sure that you don't lose a good guy who's interested, but just

doesn't want to be, you know, attacked with a question like that. it's such a good example of how I feel like we want people to be mind readers and we want people to express themselves like exactly how we want. And like, trust me, I do this all the time with my husband, but I've just learned to be like, if I'm more clear from the beginning, even if it feels like a tiny bit embarrassing or I'm like, oh, I wish I didn't have to say this. You're more likely to get what you want if you're more clear. And like, obviously you can do it in like a playful, humorous way. And so the reason why this comes up to me is I was coaching somebody last week and she is like so specific about dates. So she lives in San Francisco. She's interested in

this guy who lives in LA and she's like, okay, so I'm going to be in LA on November 21st, November 28th, December 5th, December 7th. Which of those dates can you hang out? Like really intense, intense energy. And he just wrote back and he was like responded to something she said about like a movie, but didn't respond about the dates. And when she was saying like, should I follow up I'm like you were so clear about the dates if he wanted to see you he would have followed up with one of those dates or an alternative thing so it's like you're still putting the ball in his court he has to make the date but you're letting him know do you think and I think this is something that everyone I mean a lot of people dating and single people go through

probably not people in a relationship is dating what we're going to call a fuck boy I feel like we're saying the f-word so many times in this episode I'm really enjoying it is dating we need put a sense of warning at the start of this is dating a fuck boy better than not dating at all and what I mean by that is if you know you're seeing one of these people if you know that he or she I'm we're gonna we're just saying he at the moment because we're referring but if you know that he is being a bit of a dick you know he doesn't really want anything you know he's messing around but you're obviously both allowed to date other people do you think that that is beneficial because you're like well you know what like I'm getting sex sometimes I have someone to

talk to dating's like a muscle like you know you go to the gym to train the muscles yeah do you think that that is better or do you think that is wasting your time because this is something kisha and i always have discussions about we get a lot of questions written in do you think it's better to be like do you know what yes you have two out of ten things you can give me right now but you're actually taking away five out of ten things that i'm looking for yeah i love this question because it's something that i've studied a lot and i have studied it really with like why you shouldn't keep your ex in your orbit, but the same thing is true with the fuck boy. So basically we have this idea that even if we are still talking to our ex or might get back

together with them, it won't inhibit us from meeting someone new, right? We're like, those are totally two different things, two different lanes, but that is not what I found. And basically there's this idea called optionality where you think if that's still an option, then I'm not going to be as serious about the other options or I'm not really going to commit to the other things. And so it's like, people think it's harmless, but it's not. And so with fuck boys, yes, you're getting some attention. And you said like, dating is a muscle and you're working out that muscle. But I would argue you're working out the muscle wrong and you're going to get injured. You're actually like doing reps in the wrong way and building the wrong habit, the wrong pattern.

And so what I would say is like, sure, you technically could still be going on dates while having sex with your fuck boy but when you feel lonely instead of being like that's a motivator i'm gonna put more effort in you just go back to them and so really fuck boys take time they take energy they're frustrating they play games they send mixed messages and so i like to compare it to walking on a treadmill it's like sure dating a fuck boy gives you something to do but after all that effort you really don't get anywhere this is i mean i think this is something that keisha you do often keisha has this really bad habit and it's it's what we talk about all the time of like everyone that she dates seriously dates casually sleeps with you're like i just genuinely think

they're a really great person i'm gonna keep them in my life and you do every single person i've never met anyone that keeps more fuck boys exes whoever in their life just because they're not my person doesn't mean that they don't bring other elements of things to my life and some of them have become good friends but now logan's saying that this is it's like an opportunity cost, right? You're taking away potential opportunity. Yeah. And I think that's something that if I'm being completely transparent is that by keeping them around in my life, I also do think like, oh, you know, maybe the timing just wasn't right for us then, but maybe it will be right in the future. And if I kind of like get rid of that person completely from my life, then that option

might be taken away from me in the future. What are your thoughts, Logan, on timing? Do you believe that there is a right person, wrong time? Or do you think if it's the wrong time, it's the wrong person? So first of all, just want to respond to the thing about seeing the best in people. Like that is an amazing quality and I feel like it probably just makes your life better. Like there's tons of research, right? That people who are optimists often like see opportunity more than other people and then have good things happen to them. You probably assume people will be nice and that they'll like you. And then in response, they are nice and they like you and you like them back. So this is overall a great quality that's probably serving you in life. In general, I would say

though, don't fall in love with potential. I think oftentimes when you are that type of person, you're like, well, they did this, but they were having a hard day. But if they got a different job, then it would work. And in that case, I would just say, if you're looking for monogamy and you can only date one person, I really don't want you to waste time with someone who can't really give you what you need. And so embrace that quality. But I would say don't allow it to have you make excuses for other people? And I was coaching this guy the other day. He was so sweet, like fell in love with his personality, but he definitely had this trait. And so what I gave him as an exercise was thinking about a person he loved, which in his case was his younger sister.

And I was like, imagine that your younger sister described the person she was dating. And what she was saying was what's happening to you with the girl that you're dating. Like, how would you feel about somebody treating your sister like that? And he's like, I would be enraged. Like nobody should treat my sister that way. I'm like, well, you should at least hold yourself to the standard of how you should be treated that you have for your sister. And so for you, you can really think about like, this person may be lovely. I appreciate them. All these things are going on. That being said, I don't necessarily need to put up with this behavior. And so that's my little rant about, you know, having high enough standards while still

understanding that people are doing the best they can. Now for the timing question. Oh yeah. The timing, you know, this is a hard one. I don't feel like I have like a scalding hot take on this one. What I've heard people say is even if it's the right person, if they're not willing to date you now, it can't be like right person, wrong time because the wrong time thing inherently makes them the wrong person. That being said, I do have some stories. Like I had a friend who she met this woman on OkCupid. She asked her out. The woman said yes and then later was like, I'm going to need to take a rain check. And a year later, my friend reached out and was like, how about that rain check? And now they're married and have a baby. And so that story is just so cute

because it's like it genuinely was the wrong time for that person. My friend remembered her and reached out and like it did work out. But I feel like that story is memorable because it's the exception, not the rule. And so in general, I would say most people are willing to make time for you if they feel like you're the right match. And so there's something going on if they feel like they can't make that moment work and so I would say like value your time feel urgency around this and if somebody can't be with you right now find somebody who both wants to date you is willing to make you a priority and isn't giving you a date in the future now Logan something that one of my childhood best friends said to me a couple years ago and I have never forgotten it because it was

one of the best bits of advice I've ever heard both of us were kind of like dating people and she was finding that she was, and I know that you've experienced this too, the person before the person. Oh my gosh. Of course. You know, the person that they would date. I call it the one before the one before the one. Yeah. The one before the one. Anyway, she realized that she was kind of in a lot of these situations where she thought that she was seeing someone. And then as it turns out, they were seeing her and also seeing a couple of other people. And then they would pick from that group and so something she ended up asking pretty early on which is pretty full-on but she would say hey is there anyone that thinks they are dating you right now like is there anyone

that in their mind they think that they're seeing you because I want to know about that before I invest more of my time you mean just trying to find out like if yeah a nice way to say are we exclusive or not more so like not so exclusive it's more so like this would be she would ask upon like the first or second date where she would kind of want to gauge of like it's okay if you're dating other people but is there anyone that thinks that they are in an exclusive relationship with you or working towards that what is a way to ask that question in a maybe less full-on way but I think it's brilliant yeah it reminds me there's a famous quote it's from a famous comedian I forget who it's from but it's like I don't have a girlfriend but I know a woman

who would be angry to hear me say that. Yes. Like it's definitely the same essence and I've honestly been thinking about that a lot lately. So what's hard about your friend's question is that I feel like it comes across as very cynical and really like, man, dating has burned me and I'm having a hard time

and like you better not fuck with me the way other people did, right? Like I totally understand where she's coming from. She's trying to protect herself, but I really worry that saying something like that could be a huge turnoff because what it's going to lead to in the guy's head is alarm bells are going to go off. It's like, she's super skeptical. She's cynical. Like she's been around the block and she's been burned. She's always going to question me. And so like, even though I have so

much empathy for why she's asking it, I feel like the phrasing of that question could get her in trouble and could turn off a guy who's otherwise like very honest, has done nothing wrong, but just feels almost like guilty until proven innocent. And so let's see if we can come up with another way for her to ask that. So there's one way of doing it, which is just saying, are you seeing anyone else right now? Another thing is that maybe she doesn't need to know in the beginning, but it's more that once she and the guy really start hitting it off, she should be more upfront about having the DTR that define the relationship conversation or the woo woo what's up with us. And so like, what about if, you know, when things are going well,

let's say like after a month, she says something like, I'm really enjoying hanging out. I'm going to delete the apps. I don't really feel like I need to meet somebody else right now. What about you? How are you feeling? And by sharing what's going on for her and mirroring the type of honesty she wants to have, she's letting the guy say something. So he could say, I'm happy to hear you say that. You know, I did get out of a relationship pretty recently. And so I want to play the field a little bit more. I'm not ready to do that. Or, oh, I already deleted the apps. Like I didn't mention it. Like I think just creating more opportunities to have hard conversations with people and feeling bold because we often don't bring things up because we're

afraid of the answer that we might get and so instead I would really think about you know what could she do to feel more empowered to have that conversation sooner a discussion that we have a lot a lot of questions that come in is around when is the right time to say what you want in a relationship or what you're looking for when you start dating do you put it straight on your dating profile do you do it day one on the first date you're having dinner you say hey look what are you looking for are you relationship kids just want to have sex casual because for women as we get older a lot of women are looking for a relationship it's what they want but there is this idea of oh well if I go and say that too soon it might scare them off or they might think I'm

too serious even though the guy might want the same thing there's this idea that if you directly go and say what you want they're going to run for the hills I was on a date this week and the first date and he said to me we're having dinner and he said to me what are you looking for in a relationship and I mean I have a dating podcast and I freaked out in my head my internal monologue was holy fuck do you tell him what you actually want which is like looking for I've already bought my wedding dress well I was like and I did the most roundabout answer where I like touched on both I was like well you know I'm 35 so I'm yeah I'm looking for the right person I want to share my life with someone so I would like a relationship having said that I'm also open to just cruising for

a little bit and having fun and seeing if something goes somewhere and I just did this stupid answer that like covered every single base possible because in my head I'm like if you just tell him you're ready for a relationship he's going to run a mile how early on do you think you need to have those conversations or it's okay to have those conversations it's such a good question and I think a lot of people worry about this they're like I really know what I want but I don't want to scare the person off. And so I have done some research on this at Hinge. And so we ran this really cool experiment where we had a couple different mocked up profiles and under what are you looking for? Some people just had something more generic, like somebody to laugh with and

have a great time with. And other people were much more explicit about like looking for a long-term relationship, looking to get married and have kids. And what we found was that it all depended on what the person who looked at the profile was looking for. So when somebody who's looking for a relationship sees on your profile that you're looking for a relationship, they're much more likely to message you. And so already putting it on your profile, basically as soon as you're meeting the person is great because you're really getting more messages from people that are what we called intentioned users, people looking for a relationship. But perhaps the even better news is that somebody who's not looking for a relationship, when they see that, they are 11%

less likely to send you a message. And so it saves you time. You're basically taking those fuckboys and saying no fuckboys allowed. And then they self-censor and remove themselves from the pool. And so if you're thinking about all the places that you could say it, you could say it on your profile. You could say it in your first message. You could say it on your first date. You could say it in your second date. To me, this is evidence that saying it as early as possible is great because instead of wasting your time with someone who's not looking for the same thing, You're saying it from the beginning and somebody who's going to be scared away by that Is probably somebody who's not looking for a relationship

And so I really feel strongly that there's nothing to be embarrassed about if you just own your story and you say Hey, i've been dating for a while. I've learned so much about myself. I've had some good times I've had some bad times, but I know i'm really looking to be in a relationship What about you? You're basically doing what I said before you're sharing in an authentic and vulnerable way you're modeling the honesty that you want them to have and then you're allowing them to share and you're making sure that there's no right answer so it's wording don't go in crazy and hot now logan you have a phenomenal newsletter i am signed up to it for anyone who isn't you

can grab it from logan's website i'll put a note in the show notes for it and a couple of weeks ago your newsletter wrote about this thing called the sunk cost fallacy the scf i just made that up as the SCF. Love it. Love it. What is the sunk cost fallacy? Well, thank you for being a newsletter subscriber. The sunk cost fallacy, my husband always says it as throwing good money after bad. It's basically this idea that once you've invested in something, you have to see it through. And so the example I gave in the newsletter is that I went to the movies and I knew 15 minutes into it that I didn't like it. And so the old me would be like, okay, I'm going to stay because I've already spent the $20 on the movies. But now that I know about this, the way I think about it

is whether I stay or I leave, either way, I've paid $20. But at least if I leave, I get my time back. And there's this feeling of, well, I can go call a friend. I can go listen to a podcast. I can go shopping. I can have a delicious lunch, whatever it is. And so really understanding that just because you spent money on something doesn't mean that you should also spend your time on it. Just because you've worked hard on a project, but the project isn't going anywhere, it doesn't mean you should continue. So it's giving you this understanding that despite the fact that you've spent your time on something, it doesn't mean you need to keep spending more time on it. And so how it's relevant to relationships is that sometimes I meet people who have been in a relationship for

two years, and they've actually been unhappy for 18 months, but they keep staying because they feel like, well, I've already invested this time, I have to keep going. And so how it relates to fuck boys is that you're already entangled with them and you think i should keep going or i'm gonna change them i'm gonna fix them but i would much rather that you call it identify what it was which was a situationship with the fuck boy and then move forward and find somebody else instead of saying well i've spent this much time with them i might as well stick around i think this happens a lot i've had a lot of friends i've even been in the situation but a lot of friends that are like i've just you know we've been we've been going for six months now like i feel like i've put so

much time and energy into him that I'll just hang around another six months and see what happens whereas exactly what you just said all you're doing is stopping yourself from going and getting opportunity in the next six months I would be the person now like you I would walk out of the movie now because I value my time so much more yes take back your time yeah time is invaluable I think it's such a hot commodity that people don't have enough of and you don't want to be giving your time to people that aren't adding anything back to your life. And I think that's something a lot of people need to think about right now. If you're in this situation, if you are literally in a situation now where you're with a fuck boy or fuck girl or someone that you think is wasting

their time, ask yourself, what are they adding to this situation other than maybe, maybe sporadically semi-good sex? I totally agree with all of that. And like, isn't that just a message that you would want to spread to like your audience, your friends, your family, which is just value your time more. like think about like what you could do if you weren't scrolling on instagram or you weren't feeling bad about a fuck boy or you weren't wondering you know is this person gonna text me back and really just being like if you think about a role model that you have or like somebody who's super accomplished like they're not wasting their time on those things they're achieving their goals learning becoming better investing in their relationships and so really like i wish that we

would all and i totally include myself in this take our own time more seriously like we've been speaking about it in the terms of like dating and the earliest stages of dating but does this apply to people in long-term relationships as well like I mean I know that for my parents my mum had been with my dad since she was 15 and I know that she got to her mid-40s and she was kind of like we haven't been in love for a really long time but we've spent all of this time together we've built this house together we've got this family you know we've got this life together does the sunk cost fallacy apply to people like that, that have been in really long-term relationships? Yeah. So I'll just start by saying, I've been married for two years, so I don't want to speak

on behalf of somebody who's been married, let's say, for 30 years with kids and a house and a mortgage and all that. So I think there is a lot of nuance there and there are complications. But yes, this applies to many areas of our lives. It's why we put up with friendships that have probably reached their expiration date, but we're just sort of like, well, I guess I'll keep them around. And sometimes it's a good thing. Like sometimes you've built a life with someone and even if the romantic or sexual part has faded, they're still your partner and you want to continue living with them. And so just because some of that early chemistry or honeymoon period is faded certainly isn't a reason to break up. But yes, I would say I see this all the time. And in my book,

I talk about two types of people, hitchers and ditchers. And so ditchers are people that stay in relationships too short. Maybe after three months or six months, they're like, oh, you know, the love has faded. It's not as fun as the falling in love. I'm going to move on to the next person. They don't understand that with every relationship, there's naturally a transition and falling in love isn't the same as being in love. But for sunk cost fallacy, hitchers is absolutely relevant because hitchers stay in relationships too long because they've already put that time in. And so that goes back to the example I gave of the coaching client who had been with a woman for two years, had not enjoyed it for the last 18 months,

but was like, the first six months were so great and I've already invested the time. And so for someone like him, I would just say, you know, you can't stick around for what was there at the beginning. And so yes, absolutely applies to longer term relationships, but more complicated because of course you've built a life together. How do we identify if we are the fuck boy or fuck girl in this situation? Like what are some of the signs that maybe we need to check ourselves and have a bit of a look in the mirror as to whether we're bringing that to the dating world? I worked on a podcast for the last few years called This Is Dating. And one of the people that I was coaching, he was so lovely, but he was a very typical love bomber. And I would also say

fuck boy. And it was so interesting because I felt like he was even doing some of it to me. Like after one of our coaching sessions, he wrote me this like really intense poem about how I had helped him. And every time I logged on to Zoom, he would tell me how beautiful I looked. And I was like, oh my God, like I'm being love bombed by my client. And it was just really interesting because he was truly a lovely person. I don't think he was doing anything malicious, but there was obviously something inside of him that had this need to flirt, to seduce and to please. And so I've really thought a lot about that psychology. And so one of the things that I noticed with him and that I think is true with a lot of fuckboys is that it's kind of like all these interactions

are a game that you can win by getting somebody to like you. And so as opposed to thinking like you and me are a team, baby, and it's like us against the world. It's like you versus me. And how can I win by really seducing you? And so if you think about dating as a game that you can win, that might be a sign that you're a fuck boy. And so even though we generally want to be liked and that's like a healthy part of survival and being in a group and this and that, these people have an excessive need to get validation. And it's something that I would encourage them to look at, which is what hole are you trying to fill? Why do you feel like everyone you need to date, you need to get them to not just like you as a person, but to fall for you? And like, why

is the setup this feeling of like, can I get them? And for them, it's so much about the like, can I get you to like me? Is it the chase? And you're not realizing that there's a real person on the other end whose feelings are at stake, who thinks that you genuinely like them. Well, what you really like is the feeling of getting somebody else to fall for you. And so really, it's that extreme need to win people over. The other thing goes back to what I said about the beginning, which is where their actions don't match their words. And so they make a lot of promises. So for example, things like, oh, we can date when things get less busy at work, or they give a lot of compliments, like I'm so into you. And they know in their heart,

they don't mean it. And so it's like they have a skill of saying, what does that person want and delivering it. But what they should move towards is only saying it when they mean it. And then the last thing I would say is getting involved with people who you know want commitment even though you don't. And can you move towards a world where you let the person know that you don't want commitment? And if that's the only thing they're looking for, then you move on instead of kind of lying to yourself and being like, sure, maybe I would date her one day. When in your heart, you're like, no, that's not the person I want to be in a relationship with. Well, I think it would be very silly of us to have a behavioral scientist and a dating coach

from Hinge on and not talk about dating profiles and how all those single people out there can make sure they've got the absolute best profile. What are your top tips for making like the bomb profile? Yes. And we've done a ton of research on this at Hinge. So first thing I would say is think about your profile as telling a story. So often we're like, okay, well, this picture plus this prompt, think about it all together. So I like to say to people, what are the three things that you want to communicate on your profile? So it might be, you know, I love this sports team. I'm super close to my family and I love to cook. And then you want to have a profile that really gets those things across. So you don't need three pictures of you cooking, but you might want to

have a combination. And then you don't want all of your answers to say the same thing. You really want variety. So that's number one. The next thing is that your first profile photo should be a clear headshot. No filters, no sunglasses, no dark shadows. Just like, this is what I look like because people don't want to play a guessing game and they're not going to be like, well, let me see her other photos. They're just going to be like, nope, can't tell what she looks like. You also want to include photos of you doing an activity that you love, a full body shot, and at least one photo with friends and family, but not something where they have to guess which one of your siblings you are or which one of the bachelorette girls you are.

where's wally that's literally the case for me because my photos are with girls who are on the bachelor ignore the bridesmaids ignore the bachelorettes you don't want to play where's wally and then when it comes to your prompts you want to have a mixture of humor and vulnerability so show us your dad joke show us your puns whatever is your sense of humor but you also want to have some earnest ones like i worked with this guy who was really nerdy and sweet and loved reading and so we wanted to say that he wanted a long-term relationship but we wanted to do it in a sweet way. So we wrote looking for somebody to combine my bookshelves with. Cute. That's a good one. I just thought it was so cute. Cause it's like, I'm looking for something serious. I love

reading, but like I'm in it for a good time and a long time. Well, I put a photo up of myself and my dog, Delilah, who's my, everyone that knows me knows she's my obsession. And I just wrote like package deal. That's so cute. This long-term deal. This is what we come as, but Keisha has this problem and we always say that you really need to work on your prompts be great give people something to talk about I'm a big advocate for that as well and when I write to someone first I like to comment on something that they've gone to the effort of something on their profile but Keisha's quite extreme if somebody writes to Keisha and just says hi or hi how are you she won't write back because she's like yeah fuck you you put no effort in whereas like I think that's

a bit extreme because sometimes it's boring I'm kind of like you don't care how I am you don't know me also what am I going to reply to that good how are you like sometimes at the end I think of myself sometimes at the end of a really long day I might want to start a conversation with someone because I'm interested in them but I do not have the energy to go through and think of something funny to say so sometimes even I and my advice to everyone is be creative but sometimes I'm like hey how are you that's what I do so I do you think that that's too Keisha's too extreme to not respond to a, hey, how are you? You know, I've thought about this a lot. And also, you know, I've been following this trend of beige flags. You know, beige flags is this idea that red flags are run

away, green flags are go, and beige flags are like a sign that the person might be boring. And one of the things that came up is just saying the, hey, how are you? And I used to be like, come on, people are busy. It's no big deal. But at this point, I'm like, put some effort in, like comment on something on my profile, say something like what you're up to, and then ask a question. And so in this stage where a lot of people are burned out and we're all just trying to make it through, I would say that I think that's an okay filter. And I, my really advice for everyone would be put more effort into your messages because amazing people like Keisha are filtering you out. If you just say, Hey, how are you? Stop flirting with me. I know. I'm just

trying. I'm a love bombing you. There's also amazing people like me. And sometimes I get on the dating site and I'm like, I don't have anything left in me. I don't, I do not have one more creative thing so I'm going to be like hey like your glasses how are you that's it maybe you shouldn't be messaging at that time then maybe you should come back to the apps like at a time I'm doing my best here it's so hard it's like I write all these creative messages and nobody writes back so what's my motivation but I would still say that putting an effort into that early stage is a sign that you're willing to put an effort into dating and the relationship and so I would still say like worth it to write nice comments. They tend to get more responses than

just a like, and I feel okay with you ignoring the people who write, hi, how are you? Unless of course you think they have a really great profile and you know, you want to make an exception. Look, at the end of the day, I think that dating, I mean, I'm not a dating coach. I think dating should be fun. And I think that if you're getting really exhausted by it or you're hating it or you're having a down moment and you're not enjoying it anymore, I think you can take a break I think maybe it's time to get off the app for a couple of weeks just hang out with some friends go out and try and meet people but I would hate for anyone out there to be so down and out about dating because they're going through dating fatigue situation so the question is for

people that are experiencing dating fatigue is the right thing to do what I do and just like shut down for a couple of weeks and just go out and enjoy with your friends and then try and go back on because this what happens too is I've been single for the best part of 10 years a lot of people out there, they live in the same suburb, right? So when you're online dating for that long and you live in the same area or the same city, you're seeing a lot of the same people. You're having a lot of the same conversations. It does, you do get a lot of fatigue. So what's your advice to those people? Yeah, I definitely understand where you're coming from. And this is something I hear about a lot. So there's a couple of things you can do. So one is just taking a break and

recharging and whatever that means for you. So whether it's like spending a lot of time with friends, just being at home and reading a book and drinking tea. Like if you feel like you just want to recharge, that's great. I would generally say it would be good to have a date in mind that you're going to come back because what I see is sometimes people say they're going to take a short break and then they don't come back for a long time. And then I worry that they're being a hesitator and spending too long waiting and not enough time dating. So that's one thing I would say. Something else is what is making dating feeling like burnout for you? And so one of the common things that I see is that people are having the same conversations over and over in their

chats. And so for example, I had a client who was into trapeze. And so she had this really cool photo of her doing trapeze wearing this leotard. And so people would always comment, oh my God, so cool. How long have you been doing trapeze? And even though she was proud of it, she got so sick of this conversation. So we switched up her profile, new pictures, new prompts, and then she got into entirely different conversation. And so I'd really break down where am I getting tired? Is it that I'm going on too many dates a week? Is it that I'm having the same type of conversations? Is it that I'm not sleeping enough? And so really trying to diagnose what's making you feel burned out and then addressing that I think is better than just

like the download, delete, download, delete cycle that can get really tiring. Well, Logan, I think we've covered a lot of ground today. So much ground. We covered so much ground. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast again we absolutely love having you can you tell everyone where they can find you where they can get your book absolutely yeah so my book is called how to not die alone and you can find it in both bookstores i read the audiobook so you could get the audio version you can take my three dating tendencies quiz at my website logan yuri.com slash quiz and you can follow me on instagram at logan yuri and i actually really suggest signing up to logan's newsletter. Cause I always find them really, really interesting. Yours and Mark Manson's

newsletter are my two favorite newsletters. That is such a great compliment. Thank you. And he's amazing. What's coming up in the next newsletter. Have you written it yet? Ooh, I love that. Yeah. So this week and next week we're talking about emotional vulnerability, basically how people are looking for it, what it means, how to be emotionally vulnerable without, you know, sharing too much information. And yeah, we have some other fun ones coming up with lots of dating advice and psychology terms and all of that stuff. Well, I hope everyone listening puts their floaties on and swims the fuck off fuckboy island thank you so yay okay amazing to chat with you thanks for having me on again until next time you know that we never

finish an episode without our suck and our sweet our highlight and our low light of each and every week and brittany hockley you can kick it off i got scammed this week how and not not by something you want to be scammed this was a crucial thing how much money did you get scammed by about 120 how many dollars oh that's yeah i'll be fucking dirty yeah i'm dirty and they're not paying it back how did you get scared so delilah got a period as we know she's on heat and i hate last up to four weeks because i googled that because i'm like when is this gonna end so i tried to get us some dog nappies it's a heat nappy right it's literally just a nappy put your bra back in your way you're waving that bra around can i stick it to your forehead for the rest of the record

i don't want your boob sweat on my forehead so i i quickly tried to get these dog nappies and the pet store in bondi like the local one didn't have any they were sold out so i had to get them online which said next day delivery so great so whilst i was on there you spend a bit more for free delivery right so i was like i'll throw some toys in and i was like i'll get some big you know i ended up spending like about 150 bucks i was gonna say 150 for nappies is pretty fucking no so i got the big dog food and like i threw the toys in because i was like i don't ever want to make your purchase count baby but friday sales let's go for it i don't like to leave the house so they just never came then they started to ask me about my bank details and i was like

hang on a minute wait where did you order this through amazon no it was like some pet circle thing what like an actual website online yes that came recommended they were like you need to verify it's you so we can send it out but they took the money and i was like i'm not giving you any verification of my just send the product and then i was like hang on a minute then they kept sending give me these automated things. And I was like, just give me the money back then. Didn't get the money back, didn't get a product. Have you called the company?

Because you know that that's exactly what happened when we bought the Roadcasters. They wouldn't send them to me and I had to verify that the credit, because that's not a scam. You need to just verify it. They're a real company. That's a real thing. Well, far out.

Why are you? No, because I even sent it to Keisha and she said, that's dodgy. No, no, no. That's like a very, it's a very real thing. A lot of companies, we do it with Tony May. If we can't, because for example. I paid you, just send me the product. Because so when you buy something in Shopify or through like a, you know, any sort of web

portal, for some reason, sometimes maybe your IP address doesn't match where your credit card is, whatever it is. If there's something that's suspicious about your purchase, it flags on their end that your order looks suspicious. And so therefore you need to prove more identity. You should just have to send across like a copy of your license or something that shows. No, they asked for my bank statement. Oh yeah.

Yeah. To prove that the credit card is linked to that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fine. I think just send me my whole company yeah it's all the too hard basket I the reason I shop online is I want to sit there press buy and it turns up to my house I don't want to go and make a phone call I don't want to go into my bank and screenshot and send them shit like your suck is more so that you don't want to spend time to prove your identity rather than getting scared okay it

appears that way you didn't get scared well I am because I haven't responded they won't give me my money back so they're just pretending now that I'm not here we'll talk about this off record What's your sweet for the week? My sweet for the week is I'm still crushing. I'm already, no. I'm crushing hard. No. Look, I'm feeling my breasts as I say I'm crushing.

I am going to tell you that this is a disaster waiting to happen. Brittany has got. You always veto me. Yep, and I'm always correct. This one. Maybe I need some support every now and again, Laura. There has been some that I've been supporting. This new one, this is a bad idea, Brittany Hockley, and you know it.

Look at your face. I cannot believe that we have a dating and relationship podcast and after three years you are still entertaining this relationship firstly firstly you know I have an attraction to people that aren't here yeah because I'm commitment phobe I know that's not a red flag because I know it I also want to make this very clear to everybody listening to this this is I'm not being the hard-ass best friend yes you are if you knew all the details around this which you don't but if you did you would come and smack britney and say you are being such a naughty little girl do not try and entertain this day what's the detail you don't like that he doesn't

live in this country yep see to me turn on oh that he's physically not here turn on that you only knew him for two days and now you're in love with him i'm not in love with him i'm in lust with him it was three days and we've been speaking for a long time now of course on social media i can't Guys, okay, my suck for the week is that Brittany never learns. She never learns from her mistakes, and I am so tired. Three years of being the responsible one. It's too much. You're tired, but let's be real.

I'm giving you content. That's all I need. And I'm learning slowly. It's just so hot to me. He's very attractive. No, the whole situation's hot. Oh, there's so many red flags. Do you know what?

Someone just says – I'm not here, but I want to talk to you. I'm like, oh, yes. I'm not available. I can't commit to you. And I also am. Why don't you drop a crucial piece of information, Laura? Delete that out.

Fucking delete. Yes, I know. But maybe this is the exception. No, but maybe you and I need to have a talk about maybe what's right for some is not right for others. And maybe I'm never going to be the person because I'm so fucked up that needs someone in my space all the time. Maybe I can't deal with that and I go into a shell of myself.

I don't know because I haven't had it. But there's definitely something to me that loves the idea of being in love and having a relationship where you do only see each other sporadically. But then they cheat. You still have to deal with the heartbreak. and that means so do we yeah but that's cute for you yay supportive best friends forever to be fair i love you you're dealing with my heartbreak was pretty tough love it was pretty fucking get back out there please do not get out of bed no absolutely it was not

no it was not i yeah look brit i want you to be happy i just don't want you to date fuck boys and after this episode of talking about dating fuck boys now i know i've also said this before but i don't think he is all right what's your we'll revisit that later if i'm talking to him in a couple of weeks what is your suck so my suck for the week besides that no you're not my suck i love you and i do appreciate the content but holy dick sometimes i'm like holy dick holy dick my suck for the week is that matt had the man flu over the weekend which meant he spent the whole time in bed yeah which you know it hits him hard he had to stay in bed and watch tiktok videos it does hit men to be fair though he was actually really he was

really genuinely sick and i take the piss because he's normally he's usually so hands-on with the kids he's so hands-on with everything around the house he actually was like flawed on saturday couldn't get out of bed until three or four p.m and then come sunday he was pretty good but like we were testing for covid all weekend and no no covid just the flu okay my sweet for the week is that last week was tony may black friday sales and it was like the busiest week i think we've ever had it was bananas it's so sometimes it's this weird thing to me that i had this whole other life like my tony may life is just this completely separate business and real job so what i'm what i'm hearing in that was i'm gonna get a really good christmas present or i'm like

i'm feeling it's like an expensive diamond ring is that what i'm thinking um but really it genuinely is it's just like every so often we have like career goal kicking wins over that side of things i'm just like oh yeah congrats that's and it is great because you do have a double life i do like All of my past relationships. Jewelry designer by day, podcaster by every other hour. By any spare hour. Guys, that is it from us. We hope you loved the episode.

If you did and you haven't, please leave us a little review. Maybe a sneaky little sausage. Yeah, maybe you could hit five stars, whatever you fancy. And don't forget to tell your mum, tell your dad, tell your dog, tell your friends and share the love because we love love. We'll be right back.