Life Uncut - "Fix the sex, fix the relationship" - Uncut with Esther Perel

Episode Date: November 14, 2022

It’s been the best weekend! Laura and Matty J got MARRIED!!!So today Britt and Producer Keeshia give a little bit of a wedding recap, but next week we will have a whole episode with Laura and Matt unpacking the entire day! Today we are joined by the world leading relationship psychotherapist Esther Perel.Esther has been our dream guest for over 2 years so it felt like Christmas had come early being able to interview her and get her advice on:-What relational/erotic intelligence is-Disillusionment from expectations of our partners-Can one person be the problem in a relationship?-Desire and prolonged connectionWe also speak about Britt's journey on the challenge starting and who she forms alliances with.Voting is still available for the Australian Podcast Awards and we'd truly be grateful if you could take a minute to vote for life uncut. You can vote here: https://australianpodcastawards.com/voteIf you loved the episode and want to hear more from Esther she has a show coming to Australia.You can check it all out here: http://estherperel.com/australia2022Tell your mum, tell your dad, tell your dog, tell your friend and share the love because WE LOVE LOVE! xx See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

hello lifers before we get into today's episode we just wanted to quickly jump in here and beg get down on our hands and knees britney get down on your knees go on i've had that a few times this week i'm sorry that was i just saw an opening i saw the opening this australian podcast awards listeners choice is open you can vote for your favorite podcast it's not particularly hard i'll put a link to the voting in our show notes you can also find it in our Instagram bio and voting closes in a matter of days so we would be ever so grateful if you could take a spare second and do that we are on the last legs of the voting so again we we've said it we've told you it's the Oscar it's the Logie it's the Academy Award of podcasting it's the only thing

we really really really want it's the only thing I want more than a boyfriend it's the podcast award so like and you guys know how much I want that but no it'd mean a lot to us if you could take the time and all seriousness if you ever have loved even one episode or you like what we give you every week or if we've helped in any way or we make you laugh we make you cry or you just enjoy listening to us on a run literally anything this is what means the most to us and this is what matters so we would really really bloody love you laura's going to tell you i'm going to give you a puppy i'm absolutely not so we have to put that disclaimer in yeah please go and hit the link australian podcast awards vote for life uncut you're the best life uncut podcast acknowledges

the traditional custodians of country throughout australia and their connections to land sea and community. We pay our respect to their elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today. This episode is recorded on Gadigal land of the Aurora Nation. Hey guys and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Brittany and I'm still recovering from the weekend that was. And I am still hungover. She's Brittany, I'm Keisha, producer Keisha. It is lovely to be here even though if we're being entirely honest we're both kind of in that two day hangover category. Well Keisha is on the podcast today on the intro filling in for Laura

Johnson. Although she didn't legally change her name. Laura Byrne Johnson, she got married on the weekend it was amazing so we've allowed her a week off you guys actually last week recorded I'm gonna say it and I know that we've said it in the past but this was a brilliant episode yeah we have an amazing episode today that we recorded last week it's Esther Perel now if you don't know who that is Esther is a world-renowned probably I reckon big call but she's got to be one of the leading relationship specialists in the world the leading like I would be I would have to be that bold and say that she is the number one if you were to say like you know when you're in a little bit of a microcosm like whatever field you work in and there's certain people that

are super well known in your industry well ours is like talking about dating and relationships so if there was anyone else in the planet that also talked about dating and relationships for a job I'd be like oh my god guess who's on the podcast this week Esther Perel and they would be like how did you get Esther Perel on the podcast well I was like I mean we've all three of us we've girl crushed on Esther Perel for a very long time. I've been sliding into Esther's DMs. I've been messaging her press, her PR, everyone for probably two and a half years, I reckon. And finally, somehow we struck gold. They got back to us and they're like, oh my God, Esther would love to come on your podcast. And I just thought it was Christmas. I messaged the group chat and

I was like, you will not believe who I got on the podcast. It was huge. But we're speaking to her today about many things, but we're going to get into that later. Let's go back to the wedding, the wedding that was the weekend that was one thing i just want to say off what you just said about we've given laura like a wig off i tried to make a joke to laura on the day of her wedding okay so you you know it's the day of the wedding and look kisha and i are sharing a room together at a different hotel down the road laura i know she's been in makeup for hours she's getting ready it is her wedding day it is two hours before she's getting married and i just thought i'd send a lovely message and I'm gonna interject because a little bit of context is that within

our team we kind of consistently make jokes to each other that we work at dumb times like it could be 11 that's not a joke we do work at dumb times it's not a joke it's an abnormal relationship where like we could be texting at literally any hour the other day we were texting at like 5 30 in the morning like it's not abnormal for us to ask each other for things at out of hours times Very, very weird. So I wrote a message to Laura and I said, hello, my love. I just want to say that I just love you so much. I'm so proud of you getting married today. I hope you have the best day ever. I can't wait to see you marry your best friend in the whole wide world. By the way, if you get two seconds, could you just quickly record this ad and send it through

to me? I need to send it off. Then I press send. And then this is the wedding day. Two hours before she's getting married and then I immediately sent a text back in capital letters that was like psych ha ha ha ha thinking it was clearly a joke I get this really long message back from Laura explaining why she can't send me the ad right now she's like hi my love thank you so much I'm not going to be able to do the ad right now the kids are here wild I'm getting my hair makeup done the equipment's in the car and this big explanation I was like bro what the fuck I was like it was a joke it was a joke do you think that i would really ask you to record an ad for the podcast on the podcast machine edit it and send it over i wouldn't put it past you britney

you're pretty good at times okay some things that you ask for it's just unreasonable but i was like wow you you must have high stress levels right now because you completely miss that one but the wedding was i mean we're not going to talk about it too much because we are going to do a big episode with matt and laura on the wedding next week when they're back from their week it's not even a honeymoon. I don't know what it is. I think they're even in Sydney. I don't think they even went. I don't think they're going anywhere. I think they just got home. They just put block down numbers for a couple of days. That's the only way that they get to have a holiday. But the wedding, we're going to do a whole episode on it, but it was incredible. And I know you guys

saw a lot on social media and you guys saw all the photos that Laura put up, probably the paparazzi photos as well. Photos that Keisha and I put up that, you know, there's been a lot of beautiful photos and Laura looked like a supermodel. She looked, I had to pick my jaw up off the ground when she walked down the aisle you know what it was actually a conversation that I had with Laura's friend Carla and her partner Marcelo uh the following day like at our age we've both gone to quite a few weddings right and are you kidding I'm like the only one not married I literally put a post up today that said well that's me done for life because everyone except you Keisha's married something that we were talking about is that I think something felt

very different about Laura and Matt's wedding and it wasn't just because you know they had the kids there and they had busted there they had the whole family involved it wasn't just because they had to delay the wedding quite a lot and they've been engaged for some time and so there was this sense of like oh finally they got to have their day but this other thing that we discussed and I hope I don't offend anyone that I've been to a wedding of because I'm not specifically talking about anyone but I think that a lot of the time in wedding speeches whether it be from the bride and the groom or from the other people in the room the stories that they tell about the relationship can be very romanticized and I get why like I get that you're not going to get up there and be like

oh you know he hates how they do this and she gets annoyed at him for this and that I like them one percent of the time yeah something really beautiful about Laura and Matt's wedding and I'm sure that they will go into their vows and what they said but there was really this feeling of like this is so genuinely them and I mean we spend a lot and a lot and a lot of time with Laura and everything that they said about each other was just so true that it was one of those really beautiful feelings where you're like this is such a genuine love story like I know that every single word that's coming out of everyone's mouth right now is completely truthful and it was just beautiful it was like because it wasn't all sugar-coated yeah it wasn't sugar-coated at all it was just

like genuinely these are the best things about their relationship and they're very consistent it's not like they're kind of picking from the top 10 it might have had something to do with the fact that they wrote their vows the night before we don't have time to bullshit this You've just got to get it down on paper. In true Matt and Laura style. Now, okay, a lot of people have been in the DMs. A lot of people have been asking us a very important question, Keisha. That is about the singles table at the wedding.

Believe it or not, that is all you guys want to know. Keisha and I were sat at the singles table. Yes. Because we're single. The singles table. How did you find it? The singles table was pretty dismal. There weren't a lot of single people there.

There were a couple of single people there. They're pretty cute. Keisha. Oh, no. Don't you dare throw me under the bus first. I don't think it's – you make out with someone every weekend. That's not throwing you under the bus. Keisha, lock lips.

Keisha kissed someone at the singles table. Do we want to go into that, Keisha? No, we do not. Oh, okay. That was brief. No, we do not want to give any details. A little cheeky kiss at a wedding, a little lip-locking, like having a great time.

I had a wonderful time on the dance floor. And don't you dare think that you're getting away scot-free because, Brittany, I was not the only one to lock lips with someone that night, was I? I plead the fifth. That's not a law here in Australia. That is an American law. Maybe we both lock lips with somebody.

Is the podcast going to be coming to us from Laura Johnson and Brittany Johnson in the future? Maybe. We might have to listen to next week's episode. I'm sure Matt and Laura are not going to let either of us get away with anything on the episode next week. But one thing I also wanted to discuss, I don't know how you feel, Keisha. Maybe I'm a few years older than you.

So you are, correct me if I'm wrong, you're 29? Yes. yeah 29 I am 32 give or take three years 35 we're both on the same day different years I'm 35 I've been to a lot of weddings how different I found myself at that wedding like my transition there was one thing that really stuck out for me the bouquet oh yeah the bouquet okay throwing I find it such a patronizing thing I used to love it I used to be down there I was like front center front row forward tackling people like fighting for my life like i was getting that bouquet it's never done me any good evidently but i i was always getting this is why i don't believe in

it's why i don't believe in fairy tales people but now when so laura went on the dance floor and she was like oh because there are more single women out there than men right this is also not ideal for single people for the straight girls at the wedding laura went out and she's like all the single people get out here and everyone was gathered around it was like this really big deal the whole dance floor was empty ready for this bouquet throwing no one walks out there because there's only four single people there that are mulling up the back anyway i'm trying to hide i've gone to panic mode i'm like you're trying to hide in your bright canary yellow dress my fluoro yellow dress i was like i'm just gonna stand right here next to the bar no so there are

four of us that go out there right but i didn't i didn't want to go out there and the feeling that i got it wasn't even like a no no like don't make me do it like i wasn't playing it up and then i went out there i did not go out there there was this overwhelming feeling of i do not want to go and stand here right now while 70 people watch me fight for the death for a bouquet at 35 i didn't want to do it i felt like i transitioned into this you know i fought to the death on the bachelor didn't get me anything either so i feel like i wasn't going to do it you won the bachelor what did you win humiliation no i won some best friends do you think that that is what the bouquet toss is designed for because i feel exactly the same but it's something that i've never had to worry

about because I'm only five foot two so I'm never ever ever going to unless it falls to the ground but I feel yeah you're the first one down there you're the closest to stop drop and roll but I also feel the same the bouquet tosses it's just like I don't want everyone's eyes on me being like give it to me over here I bet it's funny because I stood up the back I didn't go on the dance floor but then I said Laura go long I still I still was like you know I was like anyway we're gonna get a lot more into the wedding next week Matt and Laura but it was that was a brilliant time and we all got all of your lovely messages so thank you thank you very much it was just the best like god it was a good wedding i had so much fun i still feel like shit

thank you so much for that laura really appreciate the two-day hangover but yeah it was phenomenal and speaking of exciting things you have something very exciting that happened last night the challenge the show that you disappeared for a little month and we all had you know that while you're away because obviously you were under an NDA and we were also under an NDA we were just told you were off doing something you wouldn't be contactable and we weren't allowed to talk about it yeah and so we were kind of making a bit we were poking fun about it on the podcast Laura and myself just being like oh Brittany's away we don't know where she is where could she be getting all these messages from people being like it's so obvious that you guys actually know she's filming

the challenge like why don't you just admit it and I was like because we're not allowed to yeah it's a it's a tricky one because I guess for the people that don't know when they get somebody unlike myself who is heavily in the media that's my job radio and podcasting not only do they make me sign the NDA but they make your colleagues and people close to you that are also you know have these platforms that make them sign the NDA so there were a lot of people being like why are you guys lying to us blatantly but it's not lying it's so you don't get sued there's a difference I'm usually honest but in when money case someone could sue me I will lie to your face I am not that ethical where I'm like I don't have enough money to be sued I can't really say I've got debts to

pay off no I actually forgot it was that time I feel like I forgot I did the show it's really crept up on us because we've just been so busy as a couple of months ago but you feel it was in August you filmed right yeah it's actually a pretty quick turnaround I thought it was going to take quite a bit longer for them to air the show yeah quick turnaround August we filmed it over in Argentina which was pretty cool just outside of Buenos Aires not that we got to see much of it because you're in like a lockdown sort of like batch vibes you know where you're going to mansion for a couple of months it was like that you're just like locked and loaded it was pretty wild last night was the first episode i don't maybe you guys saw it i feel like that is a nice

little ease into what the show is going to be definitely gets more drama filled and the challenges get pretty fun and pretty gnarly that's all i'm going to say for now but i'm still torn whether i want to be celebrating it or like sink into a hole like bury myself i don't know how i don't know how it's going to play out yet but it's on so mondays and tuesdays 7 30 channel 10 okay so we've got another episode tonight yep episode tonight something that i feel as though they brushed over insanely quickly on the show and everyone in our discussion group was talking about as well is kieran stott cheating on his partner he like came into the show being like you know i want to do this because i want to rehab my reputation i'm in a really good relationship

now blah blah blah night one he cheated on his partner like what the fuck i know so actually i from memory i think it was actually night two right like in the house not that that makes a difference night one night two it was same thing but i think it was night two but this all looks like it's the same night right but it wasn't it's just over two nights we didn't talk about exactly what went down in the shower like the specifics i didn't really want to know to be honest i was like okay cool you've done the wrong thing you've cheated so you like come in the morning and be like hey I fucked up last night or like how did it kind of transpire I don't like cheaters I don't agree with cheating at all I don't think it should ever happen I just think don't be with someone

that's the stance I've always had I've been cheated on multiple times been cheated on in ways that you didn't even think were possible like very extreme cheating so I'm very against it there was a lot you didn't see it seems like they brushed over very quickly and I'm thinking it might be a bit of a theme ongoing not the cheating he definitely did not do that again but there'll probably be more conversations about it that come out I would imagine the reason I say I find it tricky is because Kieran was my partner right we got teamed up on day one I know Kieran you know I knew him from Bachelor in Paradise a few years ago never close friends we just did this one thing together and then I didn't really speak to him ever again so we got along really well we were friendly I

can't say anything about how he treated me I think he's a great person if you say what's he like just to hang out with and talk to I did have a big conversation with him after like that night and I really laid it out there and I said I told him what I think about cheating I told him I think about what he did why it's so wrong and what you didn't see as well is a very emotional very remorseful Kieran now they're gonna be a lot of people out there I know they're gonna say of course he's remorseful it was on camera you got caught and that's true that was the thing that absolutely blew my mind this is like his fourth reality tv show it's not like he's new to this world it's not like he didn't expect for them to catch this on camera like I was just in disbelief

yeah and I don't want to speak on behalf of Kieran like I really really don't I can't really not comment on it because he was my partner and it was a show and you're in such a weird position in that situation as well because like you're not there to rehab his reputation you're also not there to look after his relationship you're there to win the challenge well this is it right you can't I can't control or no one can control in that environment what their partner's doing you get partnered up with someone you paired with someone you've got to survive the days and the nights and the challenges together. And this is part of the challenge, right? Whether you're agreeing with someone on something or you're getting along, it's irrelevant. If you're with

them, you've got to find a way to work together. So what I want to say about Kieran is, do I agree with what he did? Absolutely not. Do I think he's working towards changing who he is and what he did? Yeah, I really, really do. I know he didn't like who he was on alcohol, also not an excuse, but it's a big thing to be able to recognize. You know, we've done very recently, we did a episode on alcoholism or excessive drinking you know this whole relationship people have with alcohol and the first step is realizing that maybe you have an unhealthy relationship maybe you don't like who you are on it and that was a pretty big revelation that kieran had he wanted to make a change and he did and he speaks now on his instagram he's you know he's he's been sober

since that day he didn't drink one sip of alcohol while he was on that show and there was a lot of partying he was beside himself with his mistake and he did call it a mistake and i think it'll be interesting to see the show play out about how the alliances go and what alliance is going after what other alliance how they navigate it it was a whole another ball game that I don't think I was prepared for I don't have that maliciousness in me and you have to be pretty like sly and sneaky to navigate these kind of worlds and I find it very hard to lie and argue with people and start confrontation I've always been like that like I will be the last person to start a confrontation if someone goes at me which they do in the show I will 100% stick up for myself but I'm not going

out seeking it if a fight breaks out I'm probably leaving oh you've kind of just like dropped a little bit of spicy tea I'm really keen to uh see the next couple it was just a lot of like you know you're in a house with 21 people or something there's always these tensions there's always people that want to you know people want to make themselves feel better people that need energy to like they need to vent. They want to have, it's stressful. It's a very unusual, it's a pressure cooker. That's exactly what it is.

Very unusual situation. So I think people act in ways, well, I'm giving people the benefit of the doubt. I'm hoping people act in ways that they might not normally act in. And I think that's me being generous with that statement. But anyway, you have to watch to find out. Moving on.

I would like to know who was your favorite person and who was the most annoying person. my favorite person I became very close with Megan, Megan Marks and Kiki both bachelor alum as well well we we shared a room so we get put into a room and then that's you spend your time in there until you guys go home so and it's everything's intensified it's like the bachelor a couple of weeks in there feels like months and months and months 24 7 but they're actually both beautiful girls very intelligent girls lovely normal down-to-earth kind I just I love how being normal is such a compliment because in reality tv normal's not normal normal's not normal but I I

just found that they were very different to maybe people's perception of them okay and that's why I think it's always really good and don't judge a book by its cover and I we had a lot of fun in there so that's what I'm gonna say okay and so who's the most annoying I'm not gonna say that But I told you, I'm too nice and humble. Who's the most annoying? Oh, Conrad. So Conrad, I love Conrad. We were so close.

You can't give me a fake answer. No, Conrad calls himself, no, his nickname. So I'm saying this. He was in our alliance, Batchy Alliance, but he called himself Super Annoying Man. It was his nickname. He's like, hi, I'm Super Annoying Man. And he'd intentionally be super annoying all day because he was so bored. He was like, I'm so bored.

So he was like an annoying, but I love you annoying. Okay, like an annoying younger brother kind of vibe. Well, the reason I brought up being annoying is because do you ever find out something from the internet that you're like, what? And you go and tell people about it and they're like, oh yeah, I've heard about that. And you're like, how did I miss this? Last week, I found out that in Switzerland, you can be denied citizenship for being too annoying.

What? Did you know this was a thing? Like a law? Like you can't be annoying as a law? Yeah, so there's certain parts of Switzerland. it's because the final decision is not made by the federal government it's made by what they call cantons and municipalities which i don't know municipal yeah yeah like little communities basically is what i gather that that is talking about where they go into the village and for the

final process of a citizenship application they basically take a vote from the community so you don't apply to the government no you have to go down to the town hall and you're like okay knock not can you let me in it's like you know when i don't know if you've ever filled out a passport application or a citizenship application i'm a dual citizen so i actually have gone through this process with the uk and you kind of have to tick a lot you've got to do a lot of paperwork and it's got to go to all these different places and you've got to have all this different documentation i suppose so the final step in switzerland in particular parts of switzerland from what i can gather is that they go around to the community and they're like hey do you want barry in or out

Like tick yes, no, maybe pretty much because there was a woman. This is taking me back to year six when I asked all the boys out. I know, it's like a popularity contest because there was a woman who was denied citizenship twice because apparently she was a very staunch vegan and she was really fucking annoying. Did they say that? Did they say, sorry, we're denying you because you're annoying? They basically said you don't fit into our customs and our traditions

and you're too annoying. So she's allowed to stay. You don't get like burnt at the stake or kicked out. You're allowed to stay. She's not like a witch. No, I know. No, but it's like I'm just picturing this little village where they're like, you're crazy.

So she's allowed to stay but she's just not allowed to become a citizen. That's it. Well, as it turns out, she had it denied twice and she's protested it, which if you're painting a picture of this woman probably wouldn't surprise you. How awkward when half the village you know, half your town doesn't want you there. That is – what would it take – okay, here's a question. What would it take for you to deny someone citizenship in your village?

One thing that would make me not want someone to be a citizen of the place that I lived in, and it really, really grinds my gears, is when someone walks past a pedestrian crossing and I get that you have the right of way, but if you don't give me a courtesy wave, you're out. You're not allowed to cross without waving? You're welcome. You're welcome.

I'm so glad I gave up those six seconds of my life to let you walk. This is a big call, Keisha, because they're not doing anything wrong. I know, but it's like a little courtesy wave, like a little cheers. So I won't courtesy wave everyone on a crossing. I'll only courtesy wave. Well, Brittany Calically, you're denied. If a car's coming pretty quickly, right, and I've stepped out, if they have to stop abruptly or something, I'll be like, thank you,

or if I made eye contact, whatever. But I don't just do it all the time. I don't just throw them out left, right, and center because it's the law. It's like, okay, I agree with that when it's merging. yeah courtesy merge wave oh if you don't courtesy merge wave you are dead to me i'm like i'm gonna overtake you and sit back in front of you and go really slowly that's why i'll do it i will kick someone out for you oh i okay i've got one i've got a couple actually people that don't pick up their dog poop people that walk around let their dog take a big stinky shit and

then they don't pick it up you and all out in my town you and all out in my municipal what happened last week when we uh took Delilah out I had to go back I ran out of bags and then I had it was embarrassing because she did four poops and I was like how many bags I had to go I had to go home and get a bag and then I was like someone's gonna think I'm abandoning the poop so that's one I think another one would be people that walk around on the phone on loudspeaker so Laura Byrne Laura Byrne. You are not allowed in my town, Laura Byrne, with no headphones. You know, people that walk around having a conversation,

but it's on loudspeaker. Everyone can hear the conversation. Sometimes I don't mind that because like – Because you want to eavesdrop. At least I get both sides now. Like at least I don't have to put the pieces together for myself. There's three sides to a story. I've got two.

Who's bringing me the third one? I think it's – you know those people when you're out in public somewhere, whether for us it happens a lot at the beach or at like Bondi Hill when you're wanting to have a picnic and people are playing their music on a speaker obnoxiously loud. Yeah. And you're like, music shit. I don't want to listen to it.

Also, it's not my vibe. Yeah. I'm not feeling it. I'm on a date. You're with a big group of people. Turn it down. That drives me absolutely nuts and I would deny citizenship for that. Okay, my last one.

You are not allowed in my town if you ghost. If you're a ghoster. If you ghost people on dating. That's not allowed. I put it as my rule. Is that trauma coming through right now? No, I just think I don't like ghosts, especially in a small town. I'm going to run into you, so don't ghost me.

Like, I'm going to see you. I'm going to watch you not pick up your dog's poop, so you are out. Do you know what my final one is? If you can't reverse park. We can't be doing this in society. If you can't reverse park, you're out. I would love to know what you guys – what would you kick people out of your town for?

What would it be? I would love to know that. You know what? I'd kick my neighbour out because she puts the hose on me all the time. In real life. She's gone. Yeah, she's gone. The Russian lady upstairs that waters me.

Let's get her out. She waters the plants. she waters me she waters my friends she is out it's the time for us to get into our favorite part of every episode actually do you know what before we get into accidentally unfiltered i have an i can't believe they said that that happened to me what all right so recently i was at a bar and i had had a number of beverages okay so what sounds like a standard every week no what i mean by that is that you were feeling pretty it was more so that like i could be paraphrasing but the specific line that i'm going to tell you was so distinct that i remember it specifically like

i know i was a bit drunk and i the other details of the night i might be a little foggy on but this i was not foggy on this i heard so i'm at the bar waiting there's quite a few people waiting for a drink this guy turns around and he looks at me and i'd seen him a couple of times throughout the night we'd kind of interacted very briefly but not really had much of a conversation and he's like six at best and i i just kind of assumed he was talking to someone else like i thought he was talking about something else and to someone else and moments later he looked me dead in the eyes and went you're a six at best what the fuck and i genuinely was standing there you didn't know him hadn't spoken to him like i had briefly spoken to him previously but like not a conversation that

you could be like oh that would be why he said that to you minimal i reckon 10 words max exchange more in like a passing like oh like hey how you going so he's looked at you and said you're a six at best and then walked off did you set his pants on fire did you pour alcohol on his pants and set him on fire really know how to handle this situation because firstly i didn't ask i didn't ask for what you thought like firstly i'm a nine do you mean six upside down that should oh that would be my comeback six upside down back to my friends and i was like wait this really weird thing just happened to me and i don't really know how to handle it to be fair the girls thought i would be a lot more offended than i was i mean now that i sit and think about i think because

i was a bit tipsy i was a bit like that's a fucking weird thing to say to somebody whatever play on let's go but now that I'm sitting in it it's pretty rude I'm thinking back about it I'm like it's pretty mean I think why it doesn't bother you is firstly that I mean I would have probably said something to him but what would you say like I would have said six upside down or I don't know what I would have said I just would have said at least at a minimum I would have said wow because that's powerful it's how you deliver it I think silence speaks words in this situation but yeah it was pretty outrageous so that's why I can't believe they said that and I genuinely still to this moment cannot believe that that actually was said to me i think the reason it

hasn't bothered you is you know it's not true like you know you're not a six looks like i appreciate you trying to pump up my tires but it's true because i think that's i think that's why you can just be like fucking lol like it was a bit weird and also you know that that speaks more about this person than it does about you that's what i think that's when someone says something like that i'm like wow you've got some work to do on yourself because potentially because i'm solid sorry that happened to you i mean i've seen you hook up with people i've seen who you've hooked up you hook up with tens no I mean like you're it's true actually the people that I hook up like that's the one thing that makes me really confident in my personality my ability to hold a

conversation because I'm like you know what you can get objectively I am absolutely punching above my weight in these situations maybe you're not punching maybe that's the problem do you have an accidentally unfiltered I have an accidentally unfiltered I was at a very popular restaurant with my boyfriend at the time his mom and his auntie and uncle that I was meeting for the very first time we were halfway through the main meals when i suddenly felt a stabbing pain in my stomach after having a very large night out the night before i immediately thought shit literally i quickly excused myself and ran to the bathroom i am talking an instant code red you know when you know you've only got minutes you do i made it to the bathroom but before i could close the stall

door oh my god she was so close before i could close this tall door i could no longer hold my fart which ended up being projectile diarrhea i was lucky i was wearing a jumpsuit as it shot sorry a jumpsuit is the least lucky thing to be wearing in that situation kept it in though like would you rather that be in i don't know i was wearing a jumpsuit as it shot through my undies and somehow missed the rest of my clothes. I chucked my undies into the toilet water. I lifted the lid and flushed it. I ended up on my hands and knees wiping my shit off the floor.

I went back to the table 30 minutes later to a concerned boyfriend and I lied that I had seen an old friend from high school in the toilet cubicle. He never knew. My current fiancé knows and he thinks it's hilarious. I love the pod. So many questions. I love how some people, they will send in like the most outrageous

things to us and then they'll be like by the way love the pot thanks for hearing about my anal sex issue i don't know if we're in a jumpsuit in this situation with projectile poop okay do you want this situation contained because then it's all over what you're wearing do you want to be in like a short skirt or something so it projects down i would rather that run down clean that up 100 i'd rather that run down my legs so that i could actually wash myself i feel like jumpsuits you know when you like on a night out let's say you've been on a night out and you have to go to the toilet like you just have to go to a wee a normal one not like this situation and you are sitting there in a cubicle especially if it's one where you can't wear a bra

and so you're just like sitting there with your boobs are out you're like flopping around and you're like wow i really need to reassess every aspect of my life that's what a jumpsuit makes you do jumpsuits don't have your back jumpsuits should all have a fanny flap like the bodysuits do yes exactly like the little clips a long john with a flap yeah that's what i mean long johns have flats no no long johns some long johns are just like one well you know what i reckon if she had a long john that had a flap on it she wouldn't have had this problem she would have had to stuff her undies into the toilet also that's an issue for a plumber but there's a lot of problems with this story it's not just the jumpsuit it's the flashing the undies down the toilet like i don't

know put it in a bin i don't know because you've just clogged the bathroom and also would you would you go on your hands and knees to clean up the poo i know this is a moral dilemma would you get on your hands and knees and clean up the poop or would you just wait till you thought the bathroom was empty and like put some toilet paper over it so people could alert to it and like there was an accident then run away britney hockley you just said that if people don't pick up their own dog poo i didn't say i'm doing it i'm citizenship i was just asking what you'd do i would clean i'd be mortified about that but yeah like you have there are moments in your life i think sometimes where you might be thinking oh gee i'm doing so well at life like i'm really succeeding in my

career and then you've got to clean up your own shit off the floor and every now and then you just need to be taken down a peg for yourself. All right, let's get into the episode with Esther. Introducing Esther Perel is a pretty tricky feat because if we listed all of her accomplishments, we would probably be here all day. Esther is a world-renowned speaker, a world-leading psychotherapist, author of a couple of books that you've probably heard of, including Mating in Captivity, Unlocking Erotic Intelligence, and The State of Affairs, Rethinking Infidelity. Esther has been on my hit list for a very long time. I have been hounding her PR.

Esther, you probably don't know this, but I have been chasing you for a very long time. I'm a bit of a super fan. Welcome to Life Uncut. Thank you so much. Do you read or do you also listen to Where Should We Begin? I'm a listener. I mean, like look at us here on a podcast and audio platform. We are big listeners.

But also I've watched some of your amazing TED Talks and one of them, which we're going to get into some of the conversation around it is maintaining desire in a long-term relationship. But Esther, before we get into picking your mind of all the brilliance, there's something that we start with every single one of the interviews that we do, and it's called an accidentally unfiltered story. Basically, we just want to know what is your most embarrassing moment in life? I have many embarrassing moments, first of all. I don't know if this one is the most, but it's the one that immediately came to mind because I think one of the things that is really embarrassing is when you get caught in something that you got away with for a long time because

you begin to get used to the idea that you're going to get away with it for even longer time. So I finished college, university, and then I had a student card. And at the time, these student cards were not laminated. They were just written in handwritten form on a card. And as i finished university i began to change the number every year it was so glaringly you know fake it was clear that somebody was futzing how you turn a two into a seven you know but it worked it worked like that for a good 10 years and then one day i was traveling in cappadocia in turkey in a godforsaken place a tiny archaeological site and the person that was working there i gave him my student card and he said to me this is a fake card this is not a real student card and this was

and he took it away you know he said I cannot let you travel he burned it I don't know what he did with it but he basically it was like of all places and I was alone there was nobody there that you know it's not like I was shamed publicly but it was like here I had to come to finally fall from grace so was it like an id is that what is that the point yes it was a way to not have to pay for museums oh so like the discount card where everyone's like yes yes two for one it's the student card that made everything cheaper the train tickets the bus tickets the theaters the movies when you're backpacking through europe or you're like on a what is you know 10 years after being at university a holiday that you're trying to do on the cheap and then your student card gets

taken away from you you've got to re-budget the whole thing that's right it was like what am i gonna do now you know but anyway i never forgot the the thing i looked at him it's like how did you but why why would you what is it is was he on a power trip like why take this away from me now i have to sleep in 10 10 person dorms i don't get my private rooms anymore it wasn't power it was integrity it was like he was very much about protecting the archaeological site and there was integrity to that and there was integrity to people having ethics and uh and i wasn't ethical so you are you're one of the world's leading relationship psychotherapists and you have more than established yourself in this field was relationships and understanding

the way relationships work something that you have always been interested in yes I've always been interested in human psychology I've always been interested in what makes you know how do we deal with suffering how do we deal with what people do to each other in the best form and in the worst form how do we overcome you know as a teenager it's how do you overcome rejection how do you overcome you know a lack of confidence how do you build friendships how do you deal with groups so yes I've been a massive student of human anthropology of that sort well speaking of suffering and this is something I found so interesting about your personal story not just your childhood but also your parents story can you tell us a little bit about how your parents met

and why suffering has impacted such a core part of your research and also the way that humans interact. I mean, and it relates to your question about the interesting relationships too because my parents are both survivors of the German concentration camps. They meet on the day of liberation. My mother started the war when she was 18, my father when he was 25. They meet when he's 31 and she's 24. And they are alone. They have lost all the relationships, every single member of their family, all siblings, all parents, all grandparents, etc. So this idea of how do you rebuild relationships? How do you regain trust? How do you regain faith in relationships? How do you allow yourself to get close again? Those are all relational questions.

And then they actually really were very communal people. They created family of choice, you know, before the word was invented. They created a circle of friends that they were going to live their life with and rebuild their life with. And so I understood the importance of friendship, I understood the importance of people and of community, and all of that was relationships. And I also understood the power of relationships to gossip and to control you. It wasn't all just the positive things, but there was an enormous awareness around relationships because they had lost them, because they were grieving them, because they wanted to find ways to give them a sense of continuity, even symbolically.

So I'm named after my grandmother. There was ways of kind of making the dead not just disappear, but to keep them present. So it was intergenerational and transcendent as well. So they were in a concentration camp for four years, is that right? Yeah, five. Five years. And were they in the same concentration camp? No, they were.

My mother was in nine different camps. My father was in 14 different camps. My father did this. There was lots of different things, but they were liberated on the same day from neighboring camps. And what did people do? They walked on the road and they said, do you know somebody from my hometown? Do you know someone?

It was like that. people were searching for somebody they knew and someone said so and so it just came out from this camp and he was from a little village that was you know 10 kilometers away from my mother and so they knew each other it's something that you know is ingrained in history but it's always different when you realize that it wasn't that long ago and when you speak to somebody that you have such a close relationship to that such a close connection do you think that your parents i mean i think i know the answer but there was obviously a trauma bond of sorts because I can't imagine that there is anything that can compare going through what they've gone through especially when they've both

lost their entire families and there must be this feeling of you understand you get me and I feel safe again yes and none of this was their language this is our language today you know I think my parents would never have gotten married if it wasn't for the war because my mother came from a much more educated background than my dad. My dad was virtually illiterate. He went to three years of schooling. My mother came from an aristocratic, orthodox Jewish background, and et cetera, et cetera. But it was, I'm alone, you're alone, I have nothing, you have nothing, let's get married. And as such, their bond wasn't just a trauma bond. Their bond was also that they were committed to building back their life. They fought to stay alive and they didn't just want to

survive. They wanted to live and they wanted to enjoy life and they wanted to see the world. And in that sense, I think that it's not just the suffering that connected them. It was also the kind of joy that they wanted to experience. And that's not always the case. So I was lucky in that sense. What can I say? I got the model on both sides, you know, the loss, but also the generativity of recreating. So you mentioned something earlier, you said relational intelligence. Could you explain a little bit around what relational intelligence actually is? Well, first of all, it is an intelligence, which means that it is something that you develop and that you acquire. You know, we develop an intelligence when we become good chefs, we develop an intelligence.

So it means that it's a set of skills, practices, understandings. Relational intelligence is how you map, how you kind of can read what goes on between people. The various roles, the responsibilities, the communication, the boundaries, the creativity. You get a map how people handle conflict, how they create trust, how they deal with rupture, how they repair, how they establish expectations. It's very complex relational systems, actually. It's a lot of things. It's not just a straight line I have a relationship with. Relationships are multi-layered and multi-dimensional. And so the intelligence is the understanding of it, the ability to navigate it, the ability to be fluent in it on all these levels. That's what

I call relational intelligence. And it's different from emotional intelligence because it doesn't just emphasize the empathic nature of relationship. It also looks at power structures. It looks at conflict. It looks at breaches of trust. It looks at the way people tell stories. Relationships are stories in the end, always. And people tell different stories about different relationships. and in a couple very often when they are in the beginning they share the same story and then when things don't go so well like when they come to me it's when they have very different stories and sometimes they have stories that can't bear being in the same room at the same time because they're so opposite i think it's so interesting when you say because like i had never heard of relational

intelligence before and we have conversations about relationships almost daily but obviously I think emotional intelligence is something that we talk about quite a bit what do you find is one of the biggest pinch points in relationships when you speak about relational intelligence I'm guessing when people come to speak to you or when you find that people have a fracture in their relationship it's because they're at this point where they're not able to communicate they're not able to see the other person or understand where the other person's coming from but what do you see is the biggest and most common issue that people have when they speak to you about their relationship issues? There's a range of reasons that relationships fall apart. One is the

disillusionment, because people today bring to their romantic relationships a set of expectations that is unprecedented. They really want one relationship to meet all of their needs. And the disillusionment, when this doesn't happen, is profound. With the disillusionment comes loneliness in the relationship. You know, it's one thing to feel lonely when you're by yourself. It's another thing to feel lonely when you're next to someone

who you thought you could be close with, understand each other, communicate, make love, you name it, and they just don't get it. Or you don't feel like you get them or you can't get through anymore. People come because they're stuck and they're stuck in the same repetitive patterns

time and time again. And they don't know how to get from under it because often when they get stuck in a pattern in a couple or in a conflict or in bickering or whatever they think that it's the other person that needs to change and that it's the other one who's responsible for their misery and so they often come to therapy to drop off their partner so that you can fix them yeah do something good with this work your magic and then bring him back is it ever one-sided though is it ever a situation a relationship where it really is one person is the issue and the other person is not very rarely because there is no such a thing

as one person is the issue one person may have a certain issue but then there is how the other person reacts to that issue and the way that other person reacts to that issue is going to determine what the first person is going to do upon that and so relationships are figure eight it's what I do that makes you do what you do that you would not necessarily do if I wasn't doing what I did. So stop doing what you're hypothetically doing. You see, that's what happens, this kind of intertwined dynamics between people. So it's very rare that in a relationship, it doesn't really matter whose issue it is, because the issue is how the couple organizes together around an issue it's not who is the issue is what is the

issue and how is the couple organized around it is the issue too much distance not enough connection estrangement no way too much space between them not enough intimacy is the issue reverse enmeshment too close you know not enough differentiation high reactivity everything one person does the other one has a reaction to in both cases the issue is one of these different things but then you look at how does this pair organize itself around this thing that becomes the issue in the couple do you think that we are as humans do you think we're made to be monogamous you think we're made to be this one with this one soulmate for our entire life or do you think it's something that we've really pushed upon ourselves over time as society like we have developed this

expectation that you're supposed to find your penguin and then just mate with them for the rest of eternity look i think that research is pretty concordant at this point that we are often socially monogamous but not sexually monogamous that monogamy is it's not biological in the sexual sense there's just about no species that is even the vole birds that everybody has wanted to focus. So monogamy is a cultural and economic system. It's a system that also has changed meaning throughout history. For most of history, monogamy was primarily an imposition on women so that we could know to whom do the children belong, who should he feed, and who will get the cows when he dies. It was about patrimony and lineage. It had very little to do with love.

And that was monogamy. Monogamy in the romantic era becomes a very different thing because now marriage is about love. And so monogamy becomes the affirmation of that. And then it becomes about trust and affection and loyalty and fidelity. Very different story. monogamy today is a very different definition than even 60 years ago when it used to be one person for life and today monogamy is basically one person at a time and many people will tell you i am monogamous in all my relationships but it's every relationship is a monogamous relationship it's not one person for life and now we have yet a new definition that monogamy that was brought into the queer community and the gay community that you know monogamy is an emotional commitment between two people, but not necessarily based specifically around sexual exclusivity, which is the way that it has traditionally been defined. So monogamy is not a static concept.

It has changed definitions throughout life. And I think that that is something that we often forget when we say, are we monogamous by nature? No, by nature, we are not. Certainly we are socially monogamous, but not sexually monogamous. But monogamy is not about nature. Monogamy is about culture. So for couples who are in long-term relationships who have chosen sexual monogamy with that person and I think that this is something that I mean it's something you've spoken about a lot but it's also something that a lot of people experience and that is that over time the desire that you feel for your partner the intensity of those feelings they wane and it's not that you don't love your partner anymore but the excitement definitely can start to wane especially as you

become more and more familiar with them and the fact that they fart in the morning and leave their dirty undies on the floor and all the things that they do that just aren't as sexy as what they were when you first got together. Just don't quite turn you on, that dirty undies don't turn you on anymore. But I think it links into what you said a little bit earlier, where you said, you know, we have these incredibly high expectations of our partners to be everything and to do everything. So how do you find that happy medium where you keep the desire, but you also maintain what are seen as being healthy and normal expectations of your partner? There's a difference between keeping the desire and wanting the excitement of the beginnings. And first of all, not every couple

starts high and then goes low. Many couples start lukewarm and as they get to know each other better or as they develop more internal confidence or as they feel better in their own body, they develop a whole new desire that was not necessarily there in the beginning. So I think we have to get away from the kind of the narrative that you start hot excited can't get your hands off each other and you have only one way to go and that's down a desire is a lot more complicated than that you know it also just makes it sound when you say like that and that is kind of like socially that's how people speak about relationships I guess it makes it seem like it's absolutely doomed like why the fuck would we ever do it if that's the only place to go

no exactly but I know my last relationship was that it started it was amazing to start with but all that happened was the desire intensified it didn't you know it just kept going and going and going and it was exactly because of what you said as the emotional connection developed so did the want but i guess i'm talking about long long term like this is a one-year relationship that brit's talking about i'm talking about you know if you've been with someone for 10 years you know like exactly like how do you keep on that trajectory so the first thing is look desire is like the moon. It has intermittent eclipses. It comes and goes. Erotic couples also have lapses, but what they know is they know to resuscitate. They know how to bring the spark back. They know

that in order to maintain desire, it's premeditated, it's willful, it's conscious. If you just want to be swept away and you just want it to happen, in a long-term relationship, what is going to just happen already has. It only will happen because you make it happen. And you make it happen overtly. That's what conveys value. People like music. They make sure to listen to music, to go to concerts, to go to live shows. It is a visual part of their life. So if people say sex is important or an erotic connection with their partner is important, then it has to be be alive. It has to be visible. It has to be an active presence in their life. It's not just a thing that you're going to do at 11 o'clock at night after you've gone down everything on your

list and you say, and now let's just turn to each other and think that we're going to get the juices flowing without nothing. It doesn't work this way, but it doesn't work this way with anything else either. But we have an exceptionalist view about sex. Everybody understands that if you want to go play tennis, you have to prepare yourself, you have to order the court, you have to get your gear, you have to find a partner. There's a whole ritual involved that says, and now I'm going to play. But with sex, people have this idea that they literally can throw that sock on the floor like you just did. And that suddenly they're going to be, you know, filled with testosterone. And this is off. So how do you keep desire alive is first of all, by understanding that desire

isn't just something that jumps inside of you. It's something that you cultivate and you cultivate it very actively. And it involves playfulness, imagination, curiosity, novelty, that it's de-erotic. People can have sex. People have had sex for centuries and often felt nothing. The point is not to have sex. The point is how do you maintain a connection, an aliveness, a vibrancy, a vitality with each other. And sometimes that involves the whole act of sex. And sometimes it involves being sexual, sensual, erotic with each other. And that's a whole distinction. You know, people, you don't talk about desire by talking about frequency. You don't talk about desire by talking about performance. You talk about desire by talking about pleasure. Pleasure

is not something that you measure. It's something you experience. And so that's the first question you ask people is not do you still have sex? How often do you have sex? But how pleasurable is your experience with your partner and with yourself? Do you enjoy that connection? Sex isn't just something you do. It's a place you go. And then you ask people, where do you go in sex? Where does it take you? That's the poetics of it. And when you talk with a couple, it's really that. You know, the question i love to ask people is i turn myself off when or by how do you shut down that's the right to your question about this how do you shut down and people will tell you i don't take time for myself i overeat i drink i worry i'm stressed about money i fight with my partner we have not

enough connection i haven't been outside and god knows what how do you turn yourself on how do you maintain your sense of aliveness your desire how do you awaken yourself you know and then what do they say. I go into nature, I dance, I take care of myself. I've seen friends. I talk with my partner. I play. It's that. It's not specifically what I do sexually that makes me interested in sex. It's being alive, feeling good about myself, feeling worthy, wanting to experience pleasure that makes me want to have sex with my partner. You famously said, fix the sex and you fix the relationship. How important do you think sex and having desire, not just sex when you say frequency, but how important do you think it is to a healthy relationship? I think that desire in the sense of

a vital expression of wanting is essential in a relationship. But over time, it's not always just through sex. I don't think that you need to be, you know, first of all, many people decide that they want to be sexual with other people than their partner for a host of reasons. Illness, age, attraction, one person not being so interested. And they consider themselves monogamous, emotionally monogamous. Then there are people for whom the connection is important, but it doesn't have to be the same as it was in the beginning. And then there are people for whom a deep sense of friendship, a companionate, affectionate coupledom is more than they ever thought they would have in their life and more than they had when they were young. And that too

is very valuable. I think that the most important thing when we talk about relationships is there is not a one size fits all. Sex is very important, but it is not also that important or the only thing that is important. And for some people, it is more than for others. The challenge is when it's more important for one person than the partner. That's when you've got one person who wants this language this is a place where they like to play they like that sandbox they need that type of connection and for the other partner it's not as important that discrepancy becomes problematic well that's a question we get a lot here is sexual compatibility it's not the emotional compatibility it's not social compatibility it's sexual compatibility and is that the end of the

world and is that a big red flag in a relationship but what do you mean by that brit what is sexual compatibility so the questions we get is i guess frequency how sexual someone is how much they want it how much i guess effort they want to put into it where some people are like you know i want to have sex every single day with my partner but they're always too tired it's sex doesn't mean as much to them maybe on a weekend they're too stressed there's always a reason so i guess the question is if one partner feel and this is quite early on in relationships too a lot of these are like the first year first couple years if one partner is very sexual and wanting it a lot and the other partner is not coming to the table, is this relationship doomed? But I don't think that

I have nearly enough information when it's presented like this. My first question when one person is so much more interesting than the other is to ask the other person, do you enjoy it? First of all, do you enjoy it? Then I'll know why you don't want to do it as much as the other person. Then the next question is, how does your partner reach out to you? I mean, what is foreplay like. And if it's a five minutes before the real thing, then I can also understand that for a lot of people, that's not enough. Actually foreplay should start at the end of the previous orgasm, you know, or a person says, you know, my partner doesn't talk to me the whole day. And then suddenly they turn around and they want to just kind of get into it. No, that doesn't work for me.

I'm totally disconnected. Or, you know, one person saying I have high testosterone, I have high desire or I get aroused, that doesn't say nothing to the dynamic in a relationship. That just says you enjoy having sex or you like it or you need it or you want it. That's all I know. Now tell me what goes on between the two of you. If I'm a camera on the wall, what am I seeing? Am I seeing one person just suddenly, you know, say, here I am, what's up with you? Why are you never interested? Or do I have a person who actually knows how to elicit interest, you know, by reaching out. The one thing that is very important, though, is that it's okay to be responsive. Not everybody is an initiator. Some people don't necessarily want to do something

until someone else says, how about? And then gradually they bring them into the experience. But if you think of it as, I always want, and I have to talk you into it. And I have to, you know I did the dishes and now hopefully I'll get some that sounds like their relationship but okay I appreciate so much that this is the perspective that you come to this conversation with and I think it's so important for a lot of people who have a mismatch in the sex drive in their relationship because they can definitely become that one person feels like the villain like they're withholding sex but I know that from my personal experience like I became a mom in the last two years. I've had two children in a very short period of time. And so my whole identity

has changed. What I need in order to get in the mood to have sex is different to when we first started dating. Very much, very much so. Yeah. And I think that sometimes, you know, it's very easy to fall into a pattern of arguing about sex. If at, like you said, 11 o'clock at night, that's when they're like, well, I'm ready now. And what do you mean you're going to reject me? And it's like, well, guess what? I'm fucking tired. It's 11 o'clock at night. And I've just been up all night the night before it's almost like you're setting yourself up or that person setting you up to say no to then be angry and I think a lot of people still if they're the one rejecting or not coming to the table with sex it can feel like they're the problem so let me change

this whole dynamic for you oh free therapy session from Esther Perel I'm in strap me up strap me up yeah well strap me in sorry we're talking about eroticism I'll strap you up too, if that's what it takes. Put me in the sex swing, I'm ready. How old are your little ones? My little ones are three and one. So here's what I think happens, right? Number one, I'm going to give you three little snapshots.

First of all, you have your little one. You tickle them. You nibble them. You lick them. You look at them in their eyes. They look at you in their eyes. They're adoring gaze. And it feels almost the same kind of pleasure

as you had in the first days when you met your partner it has that kind of charge and basically at the end of the day when you say i have nothing left to give i also want you to know that sometimes it's because there is nothing more you need you already are satiated all of that is erotic it's not sexual but it's erotic it's very pleasurable in that way and that is for you to then know that sometimes that makes the partner feel very lonely, very separate, and that they want to know that you can still have some of those feelings with them as well. That's the first thing. The second thing is that when your partner approaches you and you want to say, I'm tired, I think it's very important to also say, I really like that you still approach me. It feels really good. I hope at some point

soon. I find my way back to us. I know that at this point, I've been really absorbed. If you've been nursing, you've been stimulated plenty very differently, but it creates a certain kind of saturation. And what's important is not to tell the other person, now you want, how come you think of this? And I'm so tired and I have nothing in me, is to actually say, I so need you to, it's so important for me that you continue to want me even at a time when I don't know that I want as much. But it doesn't mean I don't want you. It just means that I'm in the beginning of those few years of, it's basically till the second one is about two or three. And then if everyone's on occasion, you say, I'm not in the mood, but can I please you? Be giving. Because it makes the

other person feel like, you know, the experience of being generous hasn't disappeared. The fact that you have less desire is temporary. It's a transition and it's exactly the state that you are in and these things are what preserves the couple during those few more fragile years Esther I want to ask you about something you've said the word erotic eroticism a few times and I love that word it's such a sexy word it's just it's in a league of its own we've talked a lot about long-term relationships but what about eroticism you've talked about it in terms of self-care for maybe single people or just as an individual yes totally what is the important yeah what's the importance of eroticism for a single person and how does one incorporate

eroticism into their life does that just mean more masturbation does it mean like what level are you talking about no i think i'm gonna go back to what we talked about before what you heard me say my parents didn't just want to survive they wanted to live in a relationship with oneself or with somebody or with more than somebody it's about the difference between not being dead and being alive. And that aliveness is about being generous. It's engenerative, creative, playful, pleasurable, curious. Those are the erotic ingredients. Unfortunately, in modern times, eroticism took on a very sexual meaning, but it never was about that. It was about life force, about creativity and pleasure, those things. So what does it mean eroticism for

oneself. It is how you experience yourself and you give to yourself. You say, I'm worthy of feeling good. You make yourself feel good. That can be because you cook for yourself. That can be because you pamper yourself. That can be because you stroke yourself and you don't just actually masturbate. You give yourself the pleasure of touching yourself because you don't just think touching is something that somebody else does to me. Touching is something that I also do to myself, my hair, my neck, my legs, my hands, whatever it is. So eroticism is about allowing myself to be playful and not just to feel like you have to be in responsibility transactional mode all the time. Eroticism is to give time for yourself. Eroticism is to be kind to yourself.

All those things are the things that make you feel radiant, lovable, desirable. That is the quality of what we talk about when we say erotic with yourself and the narrowness of which we are all trapped in, that it has to do with you masturbate, you look at pictures, you go to porn. That's all part of it, but it is not the essential. I mean, if you're going to masturbate and you're going to do it as fast as possible to get it over with, then it's not erotic. unless every once in a while you want it fast and furious of course but as a whole the erotic is the

pleasure of being with yourself and thinking that you're in good company it's that experience it's the same in a relationship and i think that if people put more focus on the erotic and not only on the sex desire is much more preserved over time and over decades because you continue to be curious you do new things you don't just have a sense that it's foregone conclusion same old same old what's interesting in here not much i've been there done that it's funny i made a joke a very long time ago on the podcast and it made headlines and it was a joke but thinking back to the comment as you speak and i'm like actually it was true i made a joke that i go and get massages just so i can be touched okay and i had a bit of a laugh but i think it's probably true

i actually used to go and get massages yes not just you oh they ran wild it was britney gets massages so someone touches her it was like you know like the clickbait articles but I think that that has something to do with it sometimes when you've been single for a long time you do you it's not to be erotic it totally it was part of what you just said it's not to be touched sexually it's to feel good that's what a massage is about it's to relax to get to unwind get rid of stress and it's also sure there probably is a level of physical contact skin to skin with someone else a connection yeah but you know it's very puritanical to think that if you know it's look at the way you're describing it you're making sure to say it wasn't sexual it wasn't sexual

well it wasn't a happy ending no but it doesn't have to be that to be erotic that's what it is it was pleasurable it was pleasurable that's the main thing is it feels good it's enjoyable it's pleasurable it's sensual and that is fine it doesn't have to defend itself as it's not sexual I hope you continue your massages and you love them till you die and I often extend them I'm an hour deep but I'm like do you guys have an extra half an hour I extend it on the table it's great why do you think it's problematic for us to have this narrow definition of what is erotic and how do you think that that has impacted our ability to be able to have these self-care moments or to be able to connect on a level that isn't just defined by sex with our partners?

It's a great question. First of all, it narrows the definition of sex and it turns it into a performance industry. And it turns it into, you know, once you start to have this idea that you have to protect yourself from sex, then friendships become fraught. Friendships between men and women become fraught because God knows there may be something sexual in there. Everything gets measured around this thing that is the back of your mind the whole time you know there is certain things that are sensual that are intimate that are pleasurable and they don't have to be if you only measure them by we had sex and we had an orgasm and it worked how many how hard how long that's not very pleasurable in and of itself that makes a lot of people not so interested

but if you take the time to just stroke my hand all the way up to my shoulder in the slowest way possible without any expectation because a lot of people are shying away and not interested and they become the part of the one that says i'm tired because the instant thing when the partner begins to touch them is they think oh shit now i'm gonna have to go all the way and i'm not in the mood for the whole production and so they stop it from the beginning so true so true instead of just allowing for the and then you know it you allow it it starts you didn't have a thought it was not on your mind you didn't have the energy in you but suddenly you know the connection and the contact awakens you and arouses you and the arousal elicits the desire and the desire elicits the

the continuation of this rather than from the beginning yes or no in the mood not in the mood I feel desire. We don't always start with desire. We start with connection, with touch. We start with engagement of any kind. Then that engagement may actually arouse us and we didn't even expect it. We were not in the mood at all. And then that suddenly brings in the desire. The desire is not always the starting point. You don't start because you're in the mood. You start because something is happening to you that you feel good about. I really do believe, and I had someone say this to me once, that often actions precede feelings. You may not feel something, but if you act in a certain way and like just the way you described that you know you can roadblock the

the central touch that you know may lead to sex or may lead to more intimacy you can roadblock that because you can't be bothered to go the full hog or you can lean into it you know and see if those feelings do arise correct and I think that that can differentiate between what makes you feel connected to your partner or continues this route of just being like not tonight not tomorrow night there'd be so many people listening that would know that as soon as their partner touches them in a certain way the first thing is oh fuck how do i get out of this instead of enjoying whatever it is maybe it doesn't isn't going to lead that way so maybe it is about just changing our perception and our initial thought to let me just enjoy the moment because the definition is that

sex is the whole thing and you know that it happened because it ended with an orgasm that you can measure and that you can you know ascertain rather than that if you go for the pleasure then you just start with something because it feels good and then you'll see where you want to go afterwards and then you are much less in this division between there is one person who is interested and one person who is not there's one person who doesn't know yet if they're interested you know you can come home at night your partner has cooked for you or cooked some of them whatever not for you you're not in the mood you're not hungry but then you sit down and it smells really nice and you see the meat and then you take a fork and you take a bite and then you say you

know what i'm gonna make a little plate and you're going back for seconds and you could still the next day say, I wasn't hungry. But it was delicious. And the only reason you can go through this whole sequence is because you didn't block it from the start. Esther, you have a bestselling book, The State of Affairs, Rethinking Infidelity. Now, I love this idea, but I want to know from you straight up, is infidelity the end in a relationship? Can you come back stronger than ever? Affairs can shatter a relationship because it was already dying on the vine or because the transgression is so painful that the pieces are too small to put them back together. But affairs can also bring an alarm in a couple that had

degraded into complacency and neglect and make suddenly people realize that they have to lose a lot and that they don't want to lose it. And so they reconnect with a force that they hadn't experienced in a long time. Some relationships will end, some affairs, sorry, will end the relationship and some affairs may strengthen a relationship. And some affairs may shake up a relationship. And often it will neutralize the whole scorecard. And then people have to rebuild and redefine all the pieces of their relationship. So there isn't one answer. There are many, many kinds of affairs. And I think that what's very important is to let people figure this out and not pressure in one direction or another.

It is a very powerful experience that people go through, often very isolating. And what people need is the support of their friends and their community without judgment and with patience and care because nobody else has to deal with the consequences of the decision. That's a really good point.

So true, especially because we can, I think in our want to protect our friends, the instant reaction can often be, well, break up with them. Like you should not leave them because society tells us that, you know, I mean, there's a lot of push that like for a lot of people that it's the deal breaker. And I think until you're in that position, you do not know how you would react to it because you, you know, I think a lot of people think that they would react in a certain way and then they, it happens to them and they realize that maybe the relationship is worth holding onto and working through something. Yeah. So we could literally talk

to you. I mean, I could have a personal therapy session with you for a very long time, but we know we have to let you go but you are coming to australia very very soon so i'm assuming you are sold out i was about to say to people buy a ticket but you're probably sold out are you no so we actually were sold out in sydney and we have added a second event on december 3rd so we have a few tickets left and we are doing something else also in sydney which is that we will be launching in australia the release of our card game our story card game called where should we begin the game of stories so we're coming with two big joys one is to meet you all and to speak with you and be in conversation and the other one is to play with all of you to get the cards out

and you can find the game right now already on estherperel.com australia 2022 so that is the latest news actually irrespective of any tickets everybody can have access to that amazing Esther thank you so much for coming and being part of the podcast we really appreciate it like Britt said we've been trying to get you on here for so long so this is an absolute joy for us and you can find Esther literally usually we get guests like where can we find you you can find her everywhere head talks google books podcasts live show the game thank you so much and I hope everyone go buy some tickets to Esther's show. Are you coming?

Will I see you there? We will absolutely be there. Now that we know that there's spare tickets left. We thought it was sold out, so we're like, damn it, but we are there. I need some serious therapy. Yes, there's a second event. Wonderful. Looking forward to seeing you.

Bye-bye. All righty. You guys know that we never finish an episode without our suck and ass weed, our highlight and low light of the week. Brittany Hockley, what was your suck for the week? This is a pretty easy one, Kish Petit. It involves you. you know what you've done no we had a bit of a mishap Keisha and I we had a rough start to the

wedding we drove down together to the location it was about a four-hour drive I'm not going to say the first part because I have a feeling that's going to be your side we had a dress mishap to start with with Keisha's dress we had a lot go wrong had a lot go wrong then we had car issues with my car on the way down we had to stop multiple times added all this time to the drive we stayed at Bannister's right we booked it a little while ago we're on the way down and the phone starts to ring i'm driving and i'm like you know how it comes up with a number but it says the location so it's like a la dollar and i was like a la dollar i don't this has got to be about the wedding because it's you know we're on the way down there so i answer it and they say just checking

on your reservation what time you're coming tonight and i was like is this banisters and they said no this is this blah blah hotel kisha and i had and i'm not blaming anyone you are blaming someone and there's only two of us that you can blame and you're not blaming yourself okay keisha and i had booked accommodation right and keisha was in charge of that because she was being great and she was looking after that i was just i was like take my bank card book everything you want use my email but i just physically don't have the time to book it you know so she did the searching and she found it which was amazing so we found this hotel that's because we wanted to say banisters they didn't have availability so we found this other hotel you could cancel it we're

like fuck let's just book it because you can cancel up until four days before so we booked this like six weeks ago then we realized that banisters had someone must have cancelled a room came up they were free so we booked that and I was like yes amazing we love banisters and I said to Keisha I've organized banisters for us can you cancel that booking so we tried to cancel it we wrote back emails and we thought it was all cancelled and then Keisha's like don't worry I'm gonna look after it and I was like okay cool I believe my actual response to you was it's all good don't stress we'll sort it out tomorrow don't worry we were about to go to Laura's hens party and I was like just don't worry about it we'll sort it out tomorrow and maybe one of us or

potentially both of us yeah I'm 100% not taking it anyway long story short I paid an extra six hundred dollars for a combination we didn't need so it was a very expensive weekend we tried to get out of it I we tried to say look this was a mistake we tried to cancel it can we get our money back and they said tough titties so that my suck is that i'm paid just for some very expensive hotels for a weekend that we didn't need so that was my suck of the week anyway that was my sack my sweet would be god's got to be that i went on another really really great date that's got to be my sweet yeah where are you at with this person now does britney have a boyfriend no britney's got a crush does Delilah have a new dad Delilah loves him you actually like him yeah Delilah does

that's the litmus test that's the only important part of this Delilah likes everyone how do you feel about him no I've got a mad crush Matt is that oh my god I sound like I'm 12 should I send this to him I haven't no I would die I have a mad crush he's great he's really great so I think that was I don't know date four or five still cash very cash but that's the furthest I've gotten a long time let me tell you that tell us who it is well it's his name i want to stalk him on instagram you know the rules not yet what's your suck my suck is that a couple of weeks ago i tried on a dress in david jones that i really liked but they had it in the size that i wanted but not the color that i wanted right so i went onto the website of the actual place and it was age and i ordered the

dress right and it came like 10 days to spare plenty of time play on so it comes to time for you and I to leave to go to Laura's wedding which was about a four hour drive away and it was you were kind of hustling me being like let's go come on hurry up we need to leave oh yeah we're gonna hit traffic yeah literally needed to go it was time to go so I went to put the dress into my car to drive to your house so that we could go and it was in that moment that I realized that they had sent me the wrong size yes so I ring the store in Bondi Junction and I explained what had happened I was like I am supposed to be leaving for a wedding right now and I've just realized that I've got the wrong size of this dress I love that you say it like it's their fault like

they did they sent me the wrong size I know I did check I checked on my email to be like did I fuck up or did you guys fuck up and like I get it these things happen it's not you know that's not a big problem but the problem was that we were about to leave and so I was like do you guys have this dress and they were like we're so sorry we don't have that dress in store and I was like what are we gonna do so Keisha calls me she's like okay so like I know we're supposed to be leaving right now but I'm just gonna go to the junction and go shopping for Laura's dress and I was like I just like took a deep breath and I was like okay babe call me that is not what you did you were like are you having a laugh right now and I was like I will be as quick as I possibly

can anyway shout out to the girls at age in Bondi Junction because they were so lovely there were three of them and they did it all within the space of about I reckon 15 minutes but I ended up looking like a birds of paradise and that's not the dress I was originally going to I get a text from Maddie J because we're bringing the cots down right for the kids we're traveling we had to pick the cots up and we had to bring them out so we had to get there because that's where the kids go to bed and he's like hey whereabouts are you with the cots and I was like not far you know when you're on you know when like you're like on my way I'm close when someone's like where are you when you're wait for dinner or something but you're still in the shower it was like that i was like oh we're

we're not far he's like what's not far like not far like kisha's at bondi junkie shopping for a wedding dress anyway i got a dress and i was very comfortable in it so thank you for that but that would be my suck of the week because it was quite stressful and yeah a bit disappointing but that's okay things happen my sweet for the week undoubtedly would have to be the wedding it was one of the most fun oh sorry i thought that wasn't obvious now i feel bad about my sweet obviously the sweet's the wedding but I felt like that was obvious. It was just one of the most fun days and like actually do you know what the suite also would be the next day. Recovery. Yeah the recovery day which Matt and Laura will certainly tell you about next week when they do the whole big unpacking of

it but it was just such a good time. I think a lot of Laura's friends have become our friends because you know we do spend so much time with her that we not only know about her friends but we also know them because we get to spend a fair bit of time with them as well and it was just it was just the best it was just the best wedding i had the greatest time i had the shittiest hangover the next day you got a sexy make out what a time to be alive what a time to be alive so yeah that would have to be my sweet for the week well that is it guys we hope you loved the episode if you did please share the love tell a friend let someone know about the podcast if they don't make sure you're in the discussion group life uncut podcast facebook discussion group that's

where the magic happens keep your ass gun cuts coming in your accent unfiltered can't believe they said that any embarrassing moment please send them to a life uncut podcast on instagram and we will see you on thursday you know what to do let me do it let me do it laura's never no one ever's done in their life i've done it when you've been away so i'm good move aside take it away take it away take your mom tell your dad tell your dog tell your friends and share the love because we love love does that feel good We'll be right back.