Life Uncut - From attitude to gratitude and resilience with Hugh van Cuylenburg

Episode Date: September 6, 2021

Happy Tuesday Lifers! Or maybe we should be wishing you a content Tuesday? Because in today's episode we are diving into the happiness trap and how our goal should possibly be one more of content-ness than happiness. We sat down and chatted mental health and mindfulness with Hugh Van Cuylenburg from The Resilience Project.Hugh's story is interesting. It's thought provoking, and it's empowering. In times like how we are living right now, we couldn't think of a better time to talk to someone like him. Hopefully after listening to this episode, you'll feel that little bit better and more ready to take on the week.You can find everything about Hugh here: https://theresilienceproject.com.au/about/Content warning: This episode touches on suicide, If this could be triggering for you in any way this episode may not be for you, xIf you love the episode, please let us know by leaving us a review. We really appreciate them!Share the love because, well, we love love!!! xxSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hi guys and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Laura and I am joined by my lovely co-host Brittany who is on the other side of the pond at the moment. Britt, where are you coming from? I am on the other side of the pond, Laura. Firstly, hello. Secondly, I am coming. That was a weird intro.

Hello. I tried something new. I like, okay, wait, wait, wait. Every time you tell me to try something new and then I do try something new, it completely throws you. Like you don't know how to respond. Yeah, but I love it because this is like me living on the edge. I'm like, what intro is she going to do?

What's she going to throw at me? Am I going to be able to roll with it? You're a real risk taker, baby. I am. I was born this way. I am coming to you from just outside of New York. I'm in a place called Greenwich, Connecticut, and it's on the outskirts of New York. I am here for the US Open.

Jordan was playing in the US Open last week. It sounds shit, babe. I'm just going to tell you, New York sounds like a really shit place. Do you know what sounds great? Staying in your bedroom and your lounge room for nine weeks. That sounds better. But do you want to know, okay, do you want to know something that might feel you like, it might make you feel a little better.

I think you're going to have a little bit of a laugh at my expense. Something happened to me at the tennis, and it's the first time in a while I've been slightly mortified or slightly embarrassed. now I want to preempt this story with I know I shouldn't have been embarrassed because I know it's normal I know it's natural but there was a part of me that wanted to die just a little bit at the US Open it's the first time I've been so I didn't know what to expect but the security was high I'm talking security everywhere metal detectors you got to line up forever it was sardines it was full capacity they do all these bag checks you pull everything out of your bag

they'll frisk you and then you do this multiple times and they're doing this obviously because that's the US Open for security. Now there's people everywhere, there's lines everywhere. Now as I was running out the door that day I got this feeling of like you know that feeling that all women get when your period's coming and you know that it's going to be on its way but it could be in like two or three days you know you just get that early heavy feeling. But I ran back inside and I was like oh I don't want to go because I actually was wearing white. I was like oh I don't want to go and get stuck with my period somewhere. So I ran back inside quickly I said to Jordan just quickly let me get something he was like we're late so I ran back in and I was like two seconds

now I use a moon cup do you use a moon cup Lauren you know what a moon cup is right surely I mean I know what a moon cup is yes but I've never used one I was going to use one now that I have my period again after having like the kids but I've I realized and I didn't know this they come in different sizes so the one I have from before no longer is the one that's appropriate for after birth and I was like that makes me feel really self-conscious so I need a fucking bigger one so I did Laura I did the reverse I didn't know they came in sizes either and when I first started to go I went to the shop the health shop went in and bought one and I was and my sister's been telling me to use them for years right she's like they're so good they're so comfortable you don't

know they're in there I couldn't get this thing in I was like why can't I get this thing inside of me when I finally got it in it was in so much pain the whole day then I couldn't get it out turns out I'd bought one that was like just after birth I couldn't I couldn't get it in and I was like I called my sister I called Sheridan and I was like I can't get this moon cup out it is literally stuck inside me she's like just pull it and push it in like squeeze it and I was like it is not fucking working this is the biggest most uncomfortable thing anyway I bought a post-birth moon cup I learned my lesson quickly but flashing back well I'm at the US Open so I've run inside I've got my moon cup now if you guys use a moon cup or if you don't I'm going to explain it but

it's like a little bowl of plastic and it has a little centimeter flappy thing at the end that you use to put in and out but it also comes in a little like usually they come in a satin case and that's what you keep them in like a beautiful little case so you don't see them I was in such a rush that I just grabbed the moon cup and put it in my bag I didn't have the case in it so it was just this big plasticky thing that I trust me I'd use it as I've seen better days well we know that it wasn't a big one because you haven't had kids so it was the smallest size of the plasticky and just so everyone does know they're like silicone so they're kind of like they're obviously like they're like collapsible and soft they're not like a it's not like tupperware container

that you're shoving up your vagina no it's not a tupperware container so I'm in the line and at the US Open there's people everywhere and there's this big burly security guard he's got guns strapped to him he's really intimidating anyway I go through the security and he's like open your bag for me and I was like sure people everywhere he pulls out my bag he starts to pull these little things out of it he pulls out the moon cup holds it up in the air and he goes and he's like he's like looking at it in the light and he's twiddling it between his fingers and i'm like i'm like what are you doing and he was like everyone was looking at me and i was like put that down he goes ma'am what is please explain what this is and i was like that goes in my vagina

but when i have my period you're like it's not a shot glass i haven't brought a little hip flask is smeared off black like what are you talking about I was like he was like twirling it because it's so soft he was like twirling it in between his fingers and I was like sir please put the vagina cup down immediately anyway he he was mortified I turn around and I'm trying to make it I'm mortified but I'm trying to make a joke of it like I turn back around and there are people laughing but they're not laughing at me like there were girls just going what the fuck oh my god but there were so many guys around me that obviously knew what it was that were dying on my behalf anyway I was like I was like I'm really sorry that's a vagina cup he nearly dropped it he

nearly threw it back at me he's like man you can just go straight through I don't need to check anything else like I really care about the environment and so that's what that is but you know what I'm glad that you've now learned something it's really important that men know about these things and I feel like he's just had an educational lesson at the tennis one that he probably didn't want to hear but why is it though like I it's kind of still got that stigma around it doesn't it like we shouldn't be embarrassed you should be able to go to the chemist and buy your tampons or your pads or your whatever sanitary items you use and not feel like they need to be put into a paper bag like it's this sinful thing that you're walking away from the

chemist with a tampon how dare you menstruate how dare you bleed once a month so you know what you get out there at the tennis you cheer Jordan on with that moon cup of yours you just embrace it wave the red flag for everyone to see that's why I was like it's one of those things where you shouldn't be embarrassed and I wasn't embarrassed because I was like oh that's my period I was more embarrassed because it wasn't that's what goes in my vagina and this man is holding it and didn't have a k and just like seeing his look seeing my look seeing him hold it up to the light to the sunlight to look through it because it was like a clear one I was like what are you doing with this thing he would have gone home and told his daughters for sure we have such a great episode

for you guys today and it's something that we really wanted to bring you some content that was a little bit more uplifting and that would leave you feeling just like you have some tools in your toolkit to be able to deal with the current situation in the world at the moment and you know a little bit better about life yeah you know what we wanted to leave you better than we found you put it that way so on today's podcast we're interviewing Hugh van Kylenburg who is from the resilience project and the resilience project is all around mindfulness empathy and being able to like make the best of these really difficult situations and I think one thing that Britt and I have always advocated for on this podcast one thing that we have spoken about since the very

beginning is this idea that through breakups through some of life's like most challenging hurdles some of the best and like most unique growth can come from it and you know we've spoken a lot about the hardships of breakups and relationship breakdowns and how as much as it can be a really painful time in life that you can come out of these experiences a better person and I also think with what we're all going through at the moment in the world in the current situation it is really monotonous and it can be really challenging, but I do think that there may be some ability for growth and there may be the possibility that will come out of this and be able to use some of these tools in this really challenging time that a lot of us are going

through in a really positive way as well. This is what the interview is about. I'm really excited to get into it because I think it's so perfectly timed with what is happening at the moment. But before we do, Britt, I have a question for you. Is it personal or? Look, it's not personal to your situation right now, but it's definitely very relatable. And I think our single audience is going to appreciate this one. So I was having a conversation with one of my girlfriends just the other day who is single and she's been dating this guy on and off. They've been texting quite a bit. And the conversation came up around ghosting, which I know we've covered ghosting plenty of times in the past, but I don't think we've ever actually answered this question. So he has been

taking progressively longer and longer to reply to her text messages and you know the soft fade out which I know everyone's heard of that term instead of just doing like the cold hard ghost the soft fade of like taking a little bit longer to reply to a message each day or saying like I'm too busy to reply at the moment how long on a normal spectrum in a normal relationship when you first started dating how long is an acceptable time frame to not hear from a person and to not get a reply. I remember those days. There are so many variables to this question. Like so many things I want to know. Were they talking a lot at the start and it's faded off? Has it always been this consistency? Do you know the answers to that? I think like the standard, like texting all the

time at the very beginning and then now getting the, oh, I'm sorry, I'm super busy with work. I'm like a little bit crazy at the moment. And then the messaging has gone from being like throughout the day to being once in the morning or once at night time so like eight hours between text backs is that okay is there a time and a point in a relationship especially at the beginning of relationship where someone is genuinely too busy and if they are genuinely too busy how long can they be too busy for like like how long do we wait how long do we accept tardy messages I think it has to be I think like if I'm gone because people are people are really busy obviously it might be different now with the current climate but people genuinely can be and you know this

Laura like you could be flat out from the second you wake up until the second you get home to bed for me I would say it has to be within the response has to be within that day it has to be within a 24-hour period if you're letting it roll over to the next day and and you're she's getting a message back saying hey sorry I couldn't get back to you so I was flat out and they're not giving you much I'd can it honestly I would because we all know and I really do believe this that if you want to contact someone it doesn't matter how busy you are you will within that day so even if he has been flat out he might be doing heart surgery all day who knows you might be flat out all day but when you get home to bed you you finally you've brushed your teeth you've combed

your hair back you've put your moisturizer on you've tucked yourself into bed you're going to text the person that you're thinking about and you're going to text the person you're interested in you go because you're going to think oh i can finally get back to them i can't believe i haven't gone back to them i want to get back to them so i think if it's going over than 24 hours for me that's a bit of a red flag i'd be like and but i'm the kind of person that would probably be call them out not in a bad way i'd be like hey look i'm getting that i would i'd be like brit's like fucking text me back you bitch unless you're doing heart surgery text me back no i would just say hey getting him if if she's actually feeling like he's not interested i'm

being on just saying that and don't be I don't think you should be pedantic and overdramatic like overdramatic don't make something into something that's not there but if you genuinely are getting a feeling that the whole situation has done a flip and it's changed I'm the person that would say hey look in all honesty I'm getting the feeling that you're not that interested which is cool like it is what it is kind of thing and he's either gonna say I'm so sorry I've made you feel like that like I really just have been flat out or he's gonna say yeah I just don't think the timing's right I just think life's too short we all know especially with what's going on life's too short to wonder what life's too short to not know life's too short to waste your time on someone

that's not interested in you and I really think the big takeaway from this and this was the conversation that we had is like life is too short to not be a priority like it's okay to have ebbs and flows around priority like you don't always have to be that other person's main thing and it's completely impractical to expect that someone's going to be texting you all day every day like it's it's unsustainable for starters but you still want to feel like you're a priority to that person and I know that there's variables to this like Rit said maybe if he's doing heart surgery there's some exceptions. Well let it slide okay doctor. Right whatever saving lives you're too fucking busy but no it comes down to like what does busy look like if he's studying if he's

working like a normal nine-to-five job if he's just been out exercising like there are breaks throughout the day where you can send a text message reply or you can just touch base in some capacity it doesn't have to be like a big back and forth thing but I also think sometimes we need to check ourselves because I know like when I first started dating I really love the constant back and forth messaging and then if I don't get that I'm not being satiated in that way and so like I sometimes have to turn up at their house I sometimes have to pull my own head in and be like it this is not practical like it's not sustainable for everyone to do so like I understand that as well but no I think the situation with her

was that it had become the norm to not hear back for sort of eight hour days at a time and that had happened for four or five days in a row and I was like I think you should call it I think that this is like run its course now yeah I'm gonna say call it too I'm gonna I'll not call it but like just do what I said I just be like yo is this going anywhere or not because I've got data restrictions and I don't want to waste my text on you and I also think sometimes we're so scared to ask that question we're so scared to be like hey what is happening like are you too busy or like and you don't have to ask it in like a passive aggressive kind of way but just asking the question I think the reason why we sometimes are so hesitant to ask the question is because we're

so scared of what the answer is going to be you know we don't want to hear that actually maybe they're not that interested in us and we're opening the platform to get the response that we don't want so we kind of stay away from it and we stay clear of it but I honestly think you would rather know you would rather know so you do not waste your fucking very precious and valuable time that you could be investing in someone or something else or just masturbating there you go I mean, you could still masturbate and text at the same time. Could you? I need to concentrate on what's happening.

Meditate and masturbate, baby. What if it was sexting, though? You need them. What if you're getting no reply? That would be the most miserable sexting of the world. Hey, I'm thinking of you. Okay, eight hours later, thinking of you too. Okay, let's get into our favourite part of the episode,

accidentally unfiltered. Woo! If we had sound effects, I'd put something in there. Pow, pow, pow, pow! Pew, pew, pew, pew, pew! This is where you write in your embarrassing moments and we read them out. We love them. I am going to kickstart. All right, hit me. This was just so cute and innocent. Hey ladies, it was my first date in a really long time. The first since my

divorce after being married for five years with two kids. So you can imagine. I'm talking it had been years and this mama had forgotten how to flirt. So I'm sitting there with this absolute dreamboat. We're hitting it off and I've probably had one too many vodka sodas. I decided to try and give him the eyes you know the kind it had been a really really long time since I'd had any action so I thought why not give it a go we were staring each other straight in the eyes so I thought now's the time I go to seductively take a sip of my straw you know maybe making him think that that straw could be something else in my mouth later lolacosa how awkward anyway I go to sip it but instead I lean down and I shove the straw straight up my nose as it was as if it

wasn't embarrassing enough it went so far up that it got stuck i had to pull it out it was like getting a covid test and this and it came out with snot all over it i sneezed my eyes began to start streaming with tears i've never been so embarrassed in my life my face went bright red i couldn't even look at him and we started pissing ourselves laughing but the best part is we've now been together for years he reminds me of it of him it's so gold it's so funny this reminds me of the time where i tried to flirt and i was like trying to apply lipstick but i was really applying a tampon to my lips because i was so fucking drunk that was the best story of like you ever told oh no getting stuck in oh no actually you've told some bangers yeah look the guy having sex with the back

of my knee like there's been a few i've lived i've lived a well-rounded and colorful life everybody the knee sex unless you've got any other secret stories nothing for me will ever trump the knee sex but anyway moving on what's your accidentally unfiltered did i ever tell you the time about how i broke my tooth in half after having like very very rough no i will let's save that for another time okay i have an accidentally unfiltered for you my husband and i before we were married we were shopping in westfields browsing in jb hi-fi and for some strange reason all of a sudden we got really really horny so we headed to the parents bathroom for a sneaky shopping trip quickie we snuck in the bathroom we locked the door and we started going for it who are these people who

have such exciting sex life i don't know i am so boring like so boring this makes me like feel guilty that matt doesn't get enough fun in his life it also makes me think i need to start checking the mother's rooms at the my shops are people just going for it in there apparently so here we are no most people are just breastfeeding in there this makes me annoyed think of the breastfeeding mothers okay we snuck into the bathroom and we locked the door and we started going for it he was fully naked and i had just a bra on all of a sudden he had me up against the wall and my butt pressed against something at the same time i heard doors opening please stand clear it's like an emergency open button we were both mortified standing there but us naked as the

doors started to slide open and we huddled in the corner trying to hide there was a woman there with her two children sitting there with a pram trying to come into breastfeed and here we are pressed up against the wall she was probably like go get them girl get some needless to say we've never had sex in a shopping center since i don't think she would be like go get some i think she would be like guys wear contraception because this could happen to you there'll be no more of this because there will be two of these and also please get the hell out so i can breastfeed my child anyway guys we love your accidentally unfiltered stories please keep sending them in to life Uncut podcast. And now we will get in, because I'm sure you've all been waiting for it, it's

about time, we will get into the interview with Hugh. Hugh van Kylenburg is a co-founder and speaker from The Resilience Project, as well as a published author and podcast host of The Imperfects. For three years running, Hugh's national speaking tour has sold out. The Resilience project works with schools, sports clubs and businesses to provide evidence-based positive mental health strategies to build resilience and happiness. He was a school teacher once upon a time until he had a bit of a life-changing realisation when he was volunteering in Northern India. Hugh, welcome to Life Uncut. Thank you, girls. That is a lovely, lovely intro. Well done. We practised a few times. It looked like it was just off the top of your head. It looked

very natural. That was straight from the email you sent us and said, can you please read this out on the podcast. We're so stoked to have you on today. And before we get into what we're going to be talking about, we do something with all of our guests. And that is, and I know you're prepped for this, that isn't accidentally unfiltered. We want you to bare your soul and tell us the most embarrassing, humiliating thing that's ever happened to you. Well, the most humiliating thing that you're allowed to talk about anyway. I have many. I thought what I might do is tell you my first ever really embarrassing moment or like the first one I can ever remember. It actually happened when I was at school. And by the way, I've already got

an answer to a question I was desperate to know. One of you has the best laugh I've ever heard in my entire life. It's pretty. Yeah. And I've never known because I listened to the podcast. One of my really good friends, Talisa, is your biggest fan. She lives down the road from me. She's like always talks about you guys. And she sends me all her favorite episodes you guys have done. And I've always wondered, who's got the amazing laugh? And Britt, it's good to know it's you. Yeah, I don't know if amazing is the right word, but the laugh belongs to me, yes. Do you know what the funny thing is?

When we very first started this podcast, Britt was nervous about doing the podcast at all, and she was like, I don't want to do it because I'm worried about my laugh being unleashed on the world and people judging me or thinking I sound ridiculous. And it's literally become the fucking mascot for this podcast. It's so good. Whenever you guys say something funny and I'm about to laugh,

I don't laugh because I want to hear you laugh, Britt. okay that's like it's such it's actually become a compliment so something that i used to be embarrassed about when i was going on the bachelor as my family were like wishing me away they were like just remember one thing keep the laugh under control they're like australia's not ready for it i was like okay i promise i will and now it's it's everywhere it's unleashed it's wild i know the way this works you guys have questions for me but i have so many questions for you both about reality tv like i don't even know anyway but this is not the time and place for it but i'm so fascinating. I was like, we can do this.

We'll do this offline. We'll sprinkle them in when they come up. I can see what you're doing here, Hugh. You're trying to get away from telling us your embarrassing stories. You're like, I've got a good distraction plan. Deflection and flattery gets you far. So I reckon a lot of people listening will go, yeah, I feel like a lot of people have heard my story, but no one would have

heard this story before. So this is like my first ever proper embarrassing moment, and it was mortifying. And I remember when this happened thinking, I will never, ever come back from this, ever. So it happened when I was in grade two. Oh God. So like that's seven. So I was eight. You've really held onto this trauma. I have. I talk to my psych about it occasionally.

We should have laughed. It was just after my birthday. So I just turned eight. Do you guys remember show and tell? I feel like you guys would have loved show and tell at school. I used to love show and tell, but on my birthday when I was in grade two, mum and dad gave me two things. I got a brand new Sharon football and I got a spinning top. When you like, like spun it, it lit up and it made like this noise not that exciting but for an eight-year-old it was pretty amazing and so when it was my turn to do show and tell I was like well I think I better go last because you should always say the best to last and this is going to be the people won't believe this I've got a football and a spinning top so like which is just anyway the closer yeah I was like I love that I

finished this session off here so anyway so I got to the I went I was like you go first you go first I've got something pretty amazing we'll finish with this we'll finish with this and so I go to I go to the back, right? I go to the back and there's a long line and I'm about probably halfway through the session and I started to go, oh, jeez, I think I need to do a wee. I really need to do a wee here. And I was like, oh, well, there's nothing I can do here.

I can't leave here because people – I had the football and the spinning top behind my back and I was like, I can't leave here because people will see it. I can't reveal what this is. It will ruin the whole excitement of my show and tell. I know where this is going and I'm mortified now. I am too. I feel sick for you.

But it's almost worse than you can possibly imagine because the timing of it's just so extraordinary. But so it finally, one person before me, her name was Greta Throves. Ironically, I had a very big crush on Greta Throves. I was in love with her for seven years of primary school. And I'm waiting for my turn. And she just went forever. Like, I was like, oh my gosh, please, please stop.

And she just kept going and going and going. And then I was like, I think I'm all right. But she kept going for a bit more. And then I went, I think I could be okay here. And it was my turn. and I went, good afternoon, Mrs. Bewley in grade two, for show and tell today. And then I just went, oh, no, and I just, like, closed my eyes

and I just weed everywhere. Oh, no. And for my next magic trick. And in 1988, we were wearing just these, like, tight grey shorts. That's what we just wore. So, like, there was no question. Grey is not good for anyone. No, especially, like, we.

It was so obvious. Oh, you poor thing My heart is broken for you So I just wet my pants in these grey tight shorts It was running down my legs It filled my I was wearing sandals Just filled my sandals

And for some reason I was so frozen with fear and shock I just stood there I didn't like I couldn't move And everyone just like stood there Like you can imagine like I can't laugh for you because I'm I feel like

Don't worry, I'll laugh for you, Brit I'm just so mortified for you But like I want to know Is the football still behind your back? What is the location of the show and tell? Oh, I'm holding it because I still didn't want to give it away. I was like, I can't. I don't want to tell him.

I was like, I'll wee. I'll do this wee. I'll get this wee out. And then everyone will, like, go, it's okay. He's got a football and a spinning top. So I just hung on to them. And Mrs. Buley was going, Hugh, I think you should go to the toilet. And I went, I'll do it.

And I remember going, I remember saying to her, I already have. Anyway, for show and tell, I have, like. She's like, yes, go to the bathroom, not the toilet. I'm just imagining Greta, Greta listening to this podcast. Greta, if you're out there, now you know. He was in love with you for seven years of primary school and he also took a pee in front of you in his pants. I shouldn't have said that.

I had a girlfriend in grade six called Zoe and I feel like I shouldn't have said that because Zoe's going to hear that I was actually in love with Greta Throves in grade six, but I was going out with Zoe. I'm glad you got that off your chest, though. I'm sure it feels better now. It's not over yet. What happened?

So anyway, Mrs. Buley goes, I think you should go. And I was like, and I just started crying and I dropped the football and the top in my own wee and I just sprinted to the bathroom and I remember sitting like I closed the toilet door and I was like I was done but I just sat on the ground and I just cried and cried I remember sitting there going I will never ever come back from this like how do you how do you recover from this socially like you haven't have you but you know what we learn in life these embarrassing things are character building it's funny you say that because I remember mum they called mum to come and get me

because I wasn't coming out of the bathroom mum came and got me I've never been so happy to hear mum's voice and I remember going home that night I remember telling dad and I saw this look of like oh god I'm trying so hard not to laugh here like he had the kind of smile like he could tell it was extremely funny and I think I learned back then that like not that I could articulate it at age eight but embarrassing self-deprecating stories are very connecting like they're very bonding and a year later a guy called Douglas Smith who were playing computer games he wet his pants because he didn't want to give up his go he wet his pants and I was like oh I know what to do here I remember thinking, I wish someone took me to the bathroom.

I'll take him myself. I was like, Doug, come with me. I'll take him to the toilet. So I don't know, like in a weird way, I kind of learned a bit about empathy through that. Thank you for sharing that story. It is very humanizing because I think everybody has been in a situation, a compromising situation where they can relate in some way.

Well, Hugh, I actually, just to like, just to make you feel a little bit better now, because I don't want you to be alone on the podcast. When I was like 10, I had this huge crush. Okay, I'm going to take that back. Let's call me like eight because 10 is probably a bit old. when i was like eight i had this huge crush on my older brother's friends like pretty much all of them there wasn't just one like i just crushed on all of them and i wet the bed one night i'll never

forget this moment either it's much like yours i wet the bed you know when you're a kid and you dream you're on the toilet and it's so natural like you're busting so it just comes out anyway i got told mom and dad and then we went to school for the day and then they obviously did what parents do when they got the mattress off because it's soaked through and they hose the mattress down and cleaned it and then they were drying it outside and i'll never forget i came back from school and I walked out the back and all the boys were there that were my crushes and they were all laughing about the fact that I wet the bed and I remember being like well like I thought I was gonna marry one of you and my life is over I can I will never anyway I hooked up with all of them

later on but like five years ago I was like I think things are only embarrassing when you think they're embarrassing yeah you know like things are only a big deal when you think they're a big deal and that's what you project and I think that that's actually probably look at me this is a great segue and it also it also allows you to take a bit of control back I mean I know and this is like just very much from a personal perspective I talk about loads of embarrassing stuff on this podcast and then it goes and gets repurposed in daily mail and I genuinely have gotten to a point in my life where they could write anything about me and it doesn't actually affect me or upset me anymore because I have control over my own narrative like it allows me to yeah I can have

a laugh at myself and I know that there's something very bonding like you said in being self-deprecating. There's something very humanizing in the fact that we all have these experiences that we go through. Some of them are wildly embarrassing. Some of them are a little more traumatic than others, but it's relatable because nobody's life is perfect. Everybody does stuff that they're a bit ashamed about or a bit embarrassed about. And I think that it's just weirdly become one of the core things of this podcast is sharing embarrassing stories and us all laughing together. Yeah, totally. It's funny. I don't know why I think about this when you say that but i can't help but think about what's the eight mile eminem's movie where like yeah you know

how like when it's the final rap the grand final rap and the rap battle and then he goes first and he says all the embarrassing things about his life and the guy's like oh and he doesn't rap he just doesn't say anything because he's like oh i got nothing because eminem owned all his shit like all the stuff he's ashamed of he just owned it all let's actually get into it tell us okay that's the hour thanks for coming tell us about the resilience project and sort of how you stumbled across that how it started and what's the core essence of the resilience project so i've been asked this a bit recently so i've been reflecting on it a lot more of late and i feel like the more i think back to it it was kind of started when i was very young really not when i was wetting my

pants at show and tell a little bit later than that but so when my sister was 14 years old she's diagnosed with a mental illness anorexia nervosa an eating disorder and i guess a bit of a heads up for everyone listening that i will be talking a little bit about this now so if it is triggering for you or is raw i mean if it is a raw thing for you this topic this is a good place for you to be right because i will be talking about so many of the evidence-based stuff we can do to help people or help yourself if you're struggling but it will be a bit raw one of my best mates his name's al and he said to me the other day i was talking about part of my talk where i talk about my sister and i said how do you find that he's he is the blokiest bloke manly man i've ever met in my

entire life his nickname's dolly he's a sparky and uh he said yeah i got a bit emotional i said oh yeah, right. And he said, yeah, I actually got sweaty eyes. And I said, you what? He goes, my eyes got sweaty. I was, oh, you were crying. Right. Gotcha. I guess the point of sharing that story about our Dolly is that it's okay if you get sweaty eyes, listen to me speak about all this stuff. But when I was 16, my sister was 13, 14, she was diagnosed with anorexia nervosa. And this is back in the mid nineties and I didn't, or late nineties. And we weren't really talking about mental health back then. So I remember mom and dad saying that she doesn't eat food. And I was like, oh, okay. I remember thinking that can't be that serious. If she just

needs to eat food and then she'll get better. And a few years later, she's admitted to hospital because she's dropped below crisis weight. My sister was weighing in at around, I mean, my sister's about probably five foot seven, five foot eight. So not an overly short person, but she was weighing in at 31 kilograms. So it was horrific, right? Like it was, it was really bad. And I remember. Extreme. Yeah. I remember that night we went home from the hospital And I think for a lot of people, you can kind of remember and count on one hand the amount of times you saw your parents in tears. Like, for me, it wasn't much, but it's an awful feeling, right?

Like, it's just the most heart-wrenching when you see your parents in tears. And I remember Dad was standing over the dishes. We'd got home from the hospital. My sister wasn't there, obviously. It was just my little brother, Josh, who a lot of people know from our podcast, myself, Mom and Dad. And I remember Dad was doing the dishes and he was crying. and I knew what was going on was upsetting but I'd only seen dad cry maybe once before in our life

and it really rattled me but I just have this strong memory of just looking at mum and then looking at my brother and thinking we're not a happy family and that's new because we have been happy for well obviously I remember we have the happiest memory of childhood but when my sister got sick it all changed for us and I just remember thinking we're not happy anymore and I wanted to know I became fascinated at that point with the question what is it that makes people happy I knew my sister's mental illness was well beyond me but I did feel this responsibility I think maybe as the oldest that like I could maybe cheer mum and dad up or I could cheer my brother up and we could be happy again and I so desperately wanted to know what to do but I really had no

idea so I think when I was 17 18 I became really fascinated with that question and then it wasn't until another 10 years that I found myself living in India I was over there with my ex-partner the we went to India because she wanted to go I was very happy in Melbourne and you know I loved living in Melbourne I was very much a sheltered homebody I suppose and she said now we've got to do something and so she said let's go to India then we're in India having a great time and then she said we should volunteer some volunteer teachings with our teachers and I said no let's get backpacking but we thankfully we went on her instinct and we found this community to volunteer and it was a community that very poor like no running water no electricity people sleep on the

floor. Sorry, there was electricity. I couldn't afford to have it switched on though. And I remember being there and on day two or three, feeling very homesick and massive culture shock. But I remember thinking to myself, sitting in this classroom, my kids teaching and thinking, never in my life have I ever, ever seen joy like this before. I'm sitting in the middle of the desert. There's no electricity. There's no running water. I've never seen people smile like this before. And we're only going to be there for a few weeks. It turned into about three and a half months in the end. I think it was about three and a half months. I can never remember exactly, but we lived there. And the whole time I'm thinking, what do these people do? I need to know what

these people do because I want to learn off these people so I can talk to my sister. And learned a huge amount off these people, came back to Melbourne. And pretty soon after that, I started this program, which was just meant to be about teaching primary school kids some things they could do to feel happier and improve their mental health and cope better in challenging times. And now 10 years later, people say, oh, it's really taken off. It hasn't taken off. It's been ridiculous amounts of blood, sweat and tears over 10 years and a lot of rejections, a lot of no's, a lot of this won't work, a lot of that won't work. And you probably need to go back to teaching. But now it's in this wonderful position where we teach this stuff to people every single

day. And I feel very lucky I get to do this as a job. That is a very long answer to your question. Sorry. No, it's exactly what we want to hear. And I think it's interesting. I mean, something you just touched on at the end when people think that, oh, this is an overnight success. We just finished an episode recently which was all around failure and this idea that failure is such an important part that puts us into the trajectory that we're supposed to be on you know it makes us pivot our life so when people think oh like this is so successful now but knowing that it's something that you have worked on and sometimes these overnight successes have 10 years behind them of work and of like changing what you're doing and kind of rethinking the program for it

to actually get to a point where you're like okay now we can cater for this huge audience which you obviously do I think it's very valuable to hear that because well there's 10 no's to every yes and I think people just see that the one yes that you get but they don't see the no's no no no no what do you think so what are the pillars behind what makes the resilience project when you say you were in India and you saw this joy that these people who were very impoverished were experiencing what was it that you were like okay there's something about this community that's different there's something that sets this apart were you able to kind of extrapolate what those key things are? They did some really basic things that we don't do well here in Australia, but they're

things we can easily do well, if that makes sense. Like they're just small practical things we can do every day, which is what I got really excited about. So the first one was, they were so unbelievably happy with what they had. By our standards, it was nothing. Like in the mud hut that I lived in, there was the four walls, there was shelter, there was no bed. It was like you sleep on the floor. There was a tiny pot where they'd do their cooking. But that was so good. I remember the kids said to me the first lunchtime, sir, do you want to see our playground? I said, I'd love to see your playground. They took me to a broken swing set. It was just the chains hanging down. The swing wasn't properly attached. And they pointed over their shoulders

with this massive smile. They were going, well, I didn't look at their faces. I just said, have a look. And because I didn't look at their faces, I thought they were saying to me, look how bad this is. Broken swings and a seesaw. That's it for 180 kids. But then I looked at their faces. And I realized something. These kids are actually saying, hey, sir, check this out. How good is this? How lucky we've got a playground. And some people go, yeah, but they don't know what they don't have. That's why they like it. That's not true. The local high school has had amazing play equipment, which these kids walk past every day to get to school. That didn't bother them. They just focused on what they had. And we struggle with that in Australia. I feel

like, in fact, I feel like the more privileged we are, the more we struggle with this concept of gratitude. So many of us live our lives off this model of happiness called the if and then model of happiness, which is like, and I'll give you three examples, but I'll give you four examples, but it's very possible that people will go, no, that's not me. But there might be something that you can think about in your life you do this with. So if I buy this car, then I feel happy. Or if I get this promotion, then I feel happy. Or if we could buy this house and live in this suburb, then we'll feel happy. Or if I get this many followers on social media, then I'll feel happy. There's nothing wrong with wanting all those things. They're perfectly

healthy things to aspire towards but we attach happiness to it we say if it happens then i feel happy it never works because you know that feeling of like you buy a nice new car feels good for like i don't know a month you're sitting there and you go i will keep this one clean this car i'll keep clean and then four or five months later there's shit everywhere all over your car and you pull up at the lights and you look at someone else's car and go oh gosh if i had a car like that then i'd feel happy or we get a promotion in australia feels good and then a year later a better job comes up and you think, oh, actually, if I got that job, then I'd feel happy. Or we get a certain amount of followers on social media, then we go, oh, actually, if I get this many, then that'll

feel great. Then I'll feel happy. We constantly replace these things with things we don't have in order to be happy and it just doesn't work. Well, I think a big part of that as well is this idea that like happiness is supposed to be a static constant state. I think just like every emotion that we feel in life, you can't have happiness all the time unless you have all the other emotions but we work so hard to push down the other emotions and not acknowledge them and that when they do surface we think like oh well I shouldn't feel like this I should feel happy all the time I know that I'm guilty of it from time to time like we live in a two-bedroom apartment we have two children it's quite crammed for our standards of living and I think oh like it's this

house that's making me stressed I'll be happier once we move into a bigger space we have more storage and there's you know everyone has their own rooms and people aren't waking each other up how would you recommend or like what do you say to people that they can do on a day-to-day to be able to be more grateful for what they have or bring more of that happiness into their lives well summarized Laura that was I couldn't agree everything you said then was so spot on so in order to be more grateful you have to practice it right so Dustin Martin who I'm very lucky to do a bit of work at Richmond Football Club and Dustin Martin for example now practices gratitude daily and he's done it for, I think we're coming up to nearly 1,500 or 1,600 days. He does it every

single day because he knows if you want to be good at something in life, you have to practice it. There are many ways you can practice gratitude. I'll give you three different ways. Number one, at the end of the day, write down on a piece of paper or in a journal or on your phone or on the shower screen door, whatever it is, what are three things that went well for me today? Not three things you're grateful for. Many people do that and they last about a week and they stop. And the reason they stop after that question is because when you think, what am I grateful for? You think on day one, you say family, friends, my house.

Day two, you say job, food, water. Day three, I'll say family again. When you repeat yourself, gosh, that's boring. So what went well today? I had a nice coffee. I saw the sunrise. I had a nice run. Just what went well today?

The second way to practice gratitude could be you can do this once a month because the result of this, when you do this, the impact it has on you literally lasts a month. It's so powerful. write someone a gratitude letter have a think about someone in your life it may be someone that you see all the time it could be someone your family could be a partner might be someone from your past could be maybe i could write to greta thraves i still love you and you thank them for the impact that they've had on you the positive impact they've had on your life and then you hand deliver it to them if you can you actually hand deliver it to them i did this with the i do a lot

of work with port adelaide football club now and we did this and the players actually read out their gratitude letter. A lot of sweaty eyes, a lot of very sweaty eyes. It was a beautiful, beautiful session. But the research says you do that has a profound impact on you emotionally, mental health point of view. And another way you can practice gratitude, which you can do any moment, anytime you catch yourself feeling a bit down or stressed or worried or angry, just stop and have a think about awful things that are happening to people around the world that are not happening to you. You know, I found myself the other night I was doing the Today Show or the equivalent of the Today show ever in New Zealand, which means you have to be in the studio at five in the morning

to be New Zealand time. And the night before, we got two young kids as well, Laura, and I was quite stressed about not getting good enough sleep. My daughter, Elsie, who's one and a half, woke up at nine at night and we couldn't get her back to sleep till midnight. And then finally she went to sleep. And then my son, who's four, walked into the bedroom. At one, I'd just fallen asleep and I'm thinking, right, I'll get about three and a half hours sleep here. He walks into the bedroom and he said, oh, daddy, I went to bed and I said, oh, no. And I said, no, hang on a minute, you're wearing a nappy. And he said, he goes, I know my penis missed. Which is so cute. But anyway, he was right. It had missed. And then I went to, I cleaned up his

sheets. It's 1.30. Then we realized we run out of nappies. We had no more nappies. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm now driving down the street at two in the morning. I had to be up in two hours, having not slept yet, trying to find nappies. And I was, I was really angry. I was really stressed. I was really worried. I was like, this is the worst. And then I did this thing, right? You answered the question, what is not happening to me right now that could be happening? And that same day, India had had 350,000 new cases of COVID. And I'd seen photos of people queuing up, people dying, queuing up for the hospital, 300 meters long queues. And I'm thinking, my gosh, I'm safe. Like my son's not in danger. I'm not going to have to queue up here. I'm just

going to find nappies. Do you know what? I'll be really tired tomorrow. In the grand scheme of things, I am so lucky that this is the biggest issue happening in my life right now. And straight away, I felt better. So there, again, long answer to your question, but there are three different ways people could practice gratitude. When you're saying, how can you be more grateful and put things into perspective? I last year did a course with a Deepak Chopra course, which was 21 days of gratitude and abundance. And it was very similar to what you're saying, but I got a lot from that. It's a three-week course anyone can do. You can do it online. And you write down things like you said things you're grateful for but he would do something different with you every day so he would

say write down 10 people in your life that have had an impact on your life and then why then he wants you to go back and reflect on it and it is so funny that once you're not really thinking about it you're just thinking of the impact and why and why you admire those people it was people like my parents but because of the love that they have and that they're still together for 42 years it wasn't because they're rich wasn't because they have all these things and it was all these little things was my friends because I admired the business that they started on their own and it was just a really nice way to start to look back and be like put things into perspective again it's not the money that I need it's not all these things that I want to chase it stops the comparison

culture because I think well everyone our generation is so guilty of this toxic comparison culture and I think Laura when you were talking about you know you live in your two-bedroom apartment you wish you had more if everyone around you lived in a two-bedroom apartment you wouldn't think about it. Would you? You'd be like, cool, I'm happy. Everyone's in this situation, but that's what it is. We compare ourselves to everyone else's life. And I think that contributes a lot to these mental health issues and feelings of negativity and not being worthy enough and thinking that the life you have isn't making you happy. It's because we do live in a society that is very consumerist driven. We're advertised to constantly. Like we are told exactly what you

said earlier, Hugh, like, you know, if you get the next newest, best thing, you will be happier. I I mean, every time that Apple brings out a new phone, there's a line around the street. Every time, you know, Adidas brings out new shoes, there's a line around the street. Like we are very, very consumer-driven in the society that we live in. But how do you think,

and I think just going on for something that you just said, Britt, this idea of comparison culture, it's something we talk about a lot on this podcast. And I think because we both work a lot in the social media world, we really do see how fake it is and how much people put on this so fake facade.

But at the same time, we even get sucked into it from time to time. what role do you think comparison culture plays into the mental health battles that people are having in this day and age? It has an enormous impact on us. It's an example, I was chatting to someone the other day about this. If a friend came up to us and said, oh, I've got a promotion, I've been promoted at this job, like they said it to us and they sat us down and said, I'm so excited. We would say, I'm so happy for you. That's just so, and we would feel that. But the way it's presented on social media, I think our first thing is to go,

I haven't had a promotion in ages, or gosh, I'm not getting paid that amount of money. the way that Instagram or whatever it is, whatever Instagram is probably the most common one, the way it's presented and packaged up, we just can't help but compare ourselves because we're comparing ourselves to everyone. So then we don't look at our friends and go, oh, my friend's got a promotion. Great. We go, that's someone else who's doing better than I am. But if they'd sat down and told us face to face the good news, we would just, we would feel joy for them. So there's so much happening. A very good friend of mine, Ben Crow, was talking to me about this other day. And we were talking about three main places we get our information, consuming

information from right now, social media, the news and advertising. And if you just think about the three roles they play and what they do to us. So the news is skewed massively to the negative. So I think it's something like there's an index that measures positive to negative language in the news. And I think at the moment in 2021, it's something like 88% of what we hear on the news is negative. I could be a bit off there. It's close to 88%. So we have a lot of negative news. Social media is predicated off shame. So whenever you jump off social media, you feel regret and shame. You feel like I'm not enough, basically. That's what you feel like. And think about the amount of hours we spend on social media. That's the main feeling we get from it is I'm not enough.

And then we have advertising. And the role of advertising is to make us feel like if we had this certain thing, our life would be better. Now, according to research done not too long ago, the average amount of advertising impressions we receive a day is 5,000. So we get 5,000 reminders a day that our life could be better plus we spend however many hours on social media feeling like I'm not enough because I'm not like this person and then we have this negativity on the news I think that all adds up to the amount of anxiety right now in the world is just it's off the charts and I feel like these three things have are a big part I'm not saying turn off the news we need to engage in what's happening but just be aware that that's like a deliberate like there's

a lot of good news happening in the world as well and we got to tune into that as well i listened to one of your podcasts last week that i want to direct people to when we're talking about this idea of we look at our friends if our friend came to us and said you know i got a promotion that we should automatically be like fuck that's so good good on you i'm stoked for you anyone that hasn't listened to the imperfects your podcast you do host it with ryan shelton and the episode i'm referring to i'm sure you know what i'm going to say but was ryan really openly talking for an hour about his best friend Hamish as in Hamish Blake as in Hamish and Andy and the fact that for years and years and years he resented him as a best friend and he was insanely jealous of him he

couldn't be happy for him he could not as a best friend listen to one episode of Hamish and Andy because even though he loved him as a best friend he was insanely jealous and he was comparing himself to him and the way that he spoke about that and then obviously he ended up coming out and talking to Hamish on your advice, I think a lot of people can learn from that. Our first response doesn't have to be and shouldn't be negative. Why wasn't this me?

Why aren't I good enough? When I was listening to him speak, I just thought far out, you suffered for so long when if you just had a conversation with your best friend and you had this different outlook, it could have been a really, really beautiful thing.

But I'm really want people to go and have a listen to that. Yeah, that is the reason our podcast exists because of that conversation that Ryan and I had in a cafe. We'd only just met. We were sort of becoming friends and we just got on so well

and we're having, I think we're having a beer or, no, we're having lunch one day and he just started telling me about he and his best mate, Hamish Blake, and how Hamish and Andy started and he wasn't part of that and which he understood

because they've just got this beautiful chemistry. They're extraordinary together but how hard it was for him to watch that take off without him being part of it. I mean, he was a part of it but he thought he was only a part of it because they felt sorry for him.

He didn't actually feel like he was worth being, and he's unbelievable he's the funniest person I've ever met like he's so worthy of that anyway so he told me that story and it was very emotional there's quite a few tears and then when we were leaving he gave me a massive hug and said oh gosh I need to talk about that thank you so much and then as you said just then Britt I said oh have you talked to Hamish about this and he said no and I said you need to like you need to tell him your story because I reckon his side of the story will put to bed all these anxieties and all these apprehensions you have about this I'm sure he doesn't have the same opinion as you I'm sure he's I reckon you have just and we all do this

it's not a very generous interpretation of the situation I think we're all our harshest critics and you have been so harsh on yourself and then for the next year I kept saying whenever we chat I'd say have you chatted to Hamish no have you chatted to Hamish no why not oh it's too hard when are you going to chat to Hamish and then I said right we're doing an episode you're going to talk about this but you need to speak to Hamish about it first because you can't come on the podcast he can't hear about it from the podcast this is going to be embarrassing if he listens to your podcast and he's like so do we need to talk about this pal like what's going on here yeah yeah exactly yeah there was just big build-up towards the episode coming and he

they caught up and and he called me straight after he's like oh it's unbelievable he's in tears again he's like it's the best chat we ever had and then how I got this beautiful message from Hamish like this long I think it was even maybe on Christmas day it was around Christmas beautiful long message just saying what an incredible chat they had and how their friendship has just gone to the next level and they just couldn't believe it and it's all from a conversation that it's hard to have these conversations when you're unsure about something with your best friends, but it's almost always worth it.

And they're two very special people, obviously. It's a lovely story. But that's how the podcast started. That's how The Imperfect started from that situation in Ryan's life because when he told me that, I went home and thought, gosh, I wish more people could have heard that because everyone could benefit from that. And I told Ryan, he's like, oh, I don't know about that.

I'm not sure, but it took him a while to convince him. But about six months later, he agreed that we should do a podcast. Well, it's that old adage as well, like where you know you just because you think something and just because you feel something doesn't make it fact we can feel and we can perceive something around us or we can think something of a relationship and until you actually sit down and have those uncomfortable conversations and and get the other person's perspective you don't really know where or like what is fact in that and I think we do it a lot in relationships and I always talk about this from sort of personal

experience I might interpret a situation in a certain way and I might be upset about something that my partner Matt has done or said or think he thinks something but just because I think that that's what he thinks doesn't make that fact totally and until we sit down and we unpack that together and he goes yeah actually but this is my side of things and this is what I was thinking and this is how I was feeling that you sometimes then go oh okay I had that a little bit wrong and I had created that situation in my head a little bit so we control our immediate environment around us but we can also fabricate a lot of what's happening as well. A lot of it doesn't necessarily mean that it's real. Yeah. Our inner critic runs so much of how we feel and

think about ourselves and our inner critic can be so brutal and so unkind. And I think that's why you need to tell people what you're thinking because they can often reality check it for you and say, that's not, that's not the case. Hugh, I want to get into something that's a little bit more serious and that is depression. Obviously, depression in men particularly is very, very prevalent and it's something that we have seen increase dramatically over the last few years with everything that's happening in the world, with COVID, with job loss. How do you think depression affects men and women differently? Do you think men have been more affected or in a different way, I guess, from what's been happening in the last few years? Yeah, well, I should probably

very clear to everyone listening i'm not a psychologist and what i'm about to say is purely from my observations of people that i have that i know and love and that i work with it presents in so many different ways for men there's a reason i care deeply about this topic and that's because of a guy i know and i will answer your question in a minute but i just want to give the context for why i care so much about this i had a friend many years ago who i used to play cricket and he was the scorer at my career club and he's an autistic man a beautiful person like just the most beautiful person I'd ever met. He was in his mid-40s and with his autism, he was a little bit awkward socially at times. He found social situations quite hard to navigate. The first

day at cricket club, we're all wearing our training tops and he came up to me and said, where do I get one of those t-shirts you guys are wearing? And I said, Luke, I'll get, I said, I've got one in the car. I'll get it to you, give it to you after the game. We finished the game, we're in the changing rooms and I thought, oh, I'll get Luke's t-shirt. And I ran to the car, came back and I did a presentation. I said, Luke, welcome to the club. We're so happy to have you here. And he realized what was happening as I was, so he came, he just walked up the front himself and he just took his t-shirt off and just stood there with no top on, just waiting for this massive smile on his face. He was just waiting to get his t-shirt. It was so beautiful. And I

gave him his t-shirt. He put it on, massive smile on his face, hands on his hips in front of everyone. I said, uh, and by the way, we're going to the pub tonight. Look, if you want to join us, we'd love to have you. And he said, I can't. And I said, why not? He said, I'm going to mom and dad's house to show him my new t-shirt with this massive say. And he said, you guys are my best friends and he went really red. He got so embarrassed and he just ran to the car. It was one of the nicest things I've ever seen. One of the things with Luke, he would call me all winter, like how long till cricket season? He just was so happy during cricket season because he had this purpose and he, as our scorer, he really belonged. And he'd call me on the 1st of June

every year, how long till cricket? And I'd say, Luke, it's four months. And he'd go, that's a long time. Bye. And he'd hang up. 1st of July without fail, Hugh, how long till cricket? look it's three months that's a long time but yeah and he would just august first of august anyway i got a call mid-september two weeks before cricket started which was not he didn't use the call then and he said hugh how long to cricket and i said oh mate we're nearly there it's two weeks round one's in two weeks time there's a big pause and he said that feels like a very long time to me right now and he was very quiet and i froze for a bit and i was about to say, are you okay? And I thought, no, it's probably his autism. And I said, mate, I'll see you in two

weeks. We'll have a good chat then. And he goes, okay. And I said, see you, mate. And I hung up and I went and told my wife, Penny. And she said, is he okay? And I said, I don't know. I think so. I'll chat to him in two weeks. Penny said, just give him a call back. Just check he's all right. And I said, he'll be all right. He'll be all right. I'll see him in two weeks. Two days later, I got a phone call from the president of my career club, letting me know that Lukey took his own life the day before. And my job is mental health. My life is mental health. And I had the opportunity to check in. And I didn't do it because I thought, I think he's okay. It's probably a bit awkward with his autism. If he is okay and I ask him, he might be a bit offended. I don't think I'll say

anything. And I just left him. I thought I'll see him in two weeks. And I kind of have to live with that. And so the topic of depression and anxiety and men's mental health, I mean, everyone's mental health, not just men, because of my sister and my wife struggles with OCD as well. It's everywhere. Everyone listening right now will know, anyone who was listening to that story and felt something, it's probably because you yourself have struggled or you love someone who's struggling right now. It's just mental health stuff is everywhere. And to come back to your question, it presents so differently in so many people. For Luke, he almost put it out there to me. He tried to put it out there to me. But then I know someone else who's struggling with

depression. And for them, they're just so angry all the time. For them, they would rather look angry than sad. I have people like that too. Yeah. They get really angry really quickly because for men, it's not a very manly thing to do to be sad and to talk about that. It's a bit easier to just crack it and get really angry at this really short fuse and just it can present like that. Other people, it's like all of a sudden they're very reclusive. You don't see much. They don't come out anymore. They don't want to be around people. They don't have the energy for it. it presents so differently in everyone. I mean, I'm probably going down the path of what you want to talk about a bit later on about how we talk to men about this stuff. I don't know if you want to

talk about it now or you want to. Yeah. I mean, one of the biggest questions that we get because we have such a hugely female demographic of our audience, you know, 98% of our listeners and we have men who listen, but I think a lot of the men who listen are quiet observers. But a big question that we get from the women who listen to this podcast is how do I talk to my partner who is struggling with mental health? How do I be there to support my partner who has mental health problems what can I do or what can I say to be able to you know I want to stay in this relationship but I don't know how to support my partner that is the biggest question we get asked in regards to mental health yeah I think that's important to just note that that's like all men in your life

too how do you talk to your father or a male friend or you know your partner as well I think it's just how do we approach any man in our life it's such a good question because as men we're trying so hard to look like we've got everything under control we're trying so hard to be stoic to be you know from a young age for me for example not by my parents because my parents were not like that I was very lucky but a lot of men boys when they cry they're told come on grow up don't be a girl be a man stop crying don't be a pussy yeah that kind of stuff and so we go oh shit okay yeah I want to be a man I won't cry then I won't have those negative emotions so we kind of we learnt from a very young age that that's not okay to show that side of you. It's not socially

acceptable. It's not manly. Then all of a sudden, when we're in our 20s and our 30s, our 40s and beyond, things happen to us in life. We go through breakups. We lose loved ones. We don't even know why, but we're just feeling really down and really flat. Then all of a sudden, the way out of it is to talk about it. We've never done it before. It's an incredibly hard thing to do if you've ever done it. Incredibly hard. You know, the day, the R U OK? Day, I think is an extraordinary initiative. And I have so much respect and admiration for the team who have brought that to life. I think a lot of us have got stuck in the thinking that we have to say, are you OK? To me, that question, if I'm not feeling good and my wife says, are you OK? I'll get really

defensive and go, yeah, I'm fine. I wouldn't answer that question, honestly. I think we need to have a think about the person that it is. And it might be menacing just thinking about mates of theirs but have a think about the person what do you do with that person like do you have a beer with them do you have a coffee with them what is it if you're worried about them if it's a friend or whatever suggest that activity we'll grab a beer grab a coffee and then you chip it away you chip it away at them when you've seen down them like oh how's your partner going how's your girlfriend how's your boyfriend whatever it is how's work going and you keep chipping away at different areas of their life and let them try and give you a window like just something like

an opportunity just like yeah it works a bit tough at the moment oh how come what's going on and you just like just chip away in different areas. If it's your partner that you see all the time, it's a bit hard to say, do you want to go and grab a beer? I mean, it's a weird thing to say to them. Let's go and have a beer when you're sitting in the house. They'll be like, what are you up to? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you're going to propose. So you'll notice I haven't given you a great answer for people with their partners because it's an extremely difficult one. And I don't know exactly what the answer is yet, but small, like small chip in, don't expect to just burst the door open with this incredible life-changing question that all of a sudden

they're in tears and they're telling you about their biggest fears and their childhood trauma and that kind of stuff it's just small little steps chipping away because what they're wrestling is something in their mind that they feel ashamed of and when they don't talk about it the shame grows and grows one of the things that we advocate for so much on this podcast is just opening space for communication you know and not being afraid to have hard conversations because i think that that's where so much growth comes from and it's where you actually really form such a deep connection with your partner if we're talking about having these conversations with your partner allowing that space for it and not being scared to ask big questions you know and that doesn't

mean that someone's necessarily ready to give you those answers straight away or you can't push the subject if they're not ready for that but allowing that space for when they are ready that they feel safe to have those conversations but I think that this whole conversation that we're having right now really lends itself to a buzzword that's been floating around in media and also you'll see it a lot if you're kind of into reading about psychology and that's toxic masculinity I'm sure a lot of people listening to it would already know what that looks like but here you touched it on the head where you said you know it's this idea that we raise men and boys saying like you can't cry you don't show feelings you don't show emotions because they're typically feminine qualities

and by not allowing men to express their feelings or to be vulnerable then they're prone to express it in other ways whether it be through trying to take back power or it be through violence or it be through other ways of expressing themselves which are not necessarily healthy ways I was doing a bit of research on this recently there was a study that came out in 2015 which was because of our very traditional gender roles and the way that men have been exposed to this idea of toxic masculinity men are less inclined to seek medical help or to go and speak to a counselor or speak to a psychologist about their mental health battles purely because it's seen as a massive weakness. Whereas as women, we are more inclined to go and do so because we traditionally, when

you think about our gender stereotypes, we traditionally like talking about our feelings a bit more. So we're more willing to go and sit down with someone and actually unpack and get help for the things that we need help for. Totally. I think the only thing I'd add to all that is in my head, I'm just thinking about women listening to this who are really worried about their partner and how they can get their partner open up more. One of the most powerful ways to influence anyone's behavior is to model the behaviors. So if you're able to talk about things that you're struggling with like the vulnerability thing we're talking about before as soon as you make yourself vulnerable someone is more likely to be vulnerable back so by you

just saying are you okay i'm so worried about you or what's going on you do i feel like you're really angry i feel like it's a pretty cold entry for them like but if you had to start the conversation by saying oh i'm struggling so much with this thing at work or i'm feeling really insecure about this i'm really worried if you really open up yourself it's like you've warmed them up a bit and you've kind of given them permission and you've demonstrated, you've shown them how you do it. You show it that it's okay to do it. So modelling, it is the most powerful way to influence someone's behaviour. I think something that I want to add, and this is not a man in my life, but this is something that happened in the last few days with me with a

female friend. I hadn't seen her in a little while and she texts me, you know, like, how are you? What's up? Blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, haven't seen you in ages. I wrote back, I'm great. So busy. You know, how are you? She responded, yeah, I'm okay. And then continued to ask me questions. and then she she asked me like five more questions and I was like I think it's just about being a little bit hyper aware and really present in a moment thinking about responses and I was like hang on it's not really normal to say I'm okay yeah I just didn't feel like it was great and I was like oh hang on like are you just okay what's that about and I just ignored everything else she said and then the floodgates just opened and she was you know there was so much going on and she

obviously needed to speak to someone but nobody wants to be the person that writes to you and says hey can I unload on you like as humans we don't want to come and put that onto somebody so I think as a friend or when you're talking to people in your life I think it's just to be really hyper aware of small changes that might not seem like a lot but like you said with your friend with autism there was a change there and you recognized it and I think it's important now that we all know that if you know that it's a little bit different behavior for someone then ask them about it like you don't have to make a big deal about it but i think it's honing on those things and also i think like on top of that brit like the more that we have these sorts of

conversations the more that mental health problems are normalized the more that we make space for having conversation with our friends and our family members it breaks down that awkward feeling of like oh i don't want to ask them i don't want to make them uncomfortable like it's because we feel uncomfortable it's not necessarily about making them feel uncomfortable it's that we feel uncomfortable to ask the question so therefore we can often avoid it altogether because we don't necessarily know how to deal with grief or to deal with mental health and we don't necessarily have the tools the correct tools to be able to support that person because it's one thing to open space for the conversation but then once you've been handed that information what do you do with it

like where do you go from there and how do you support that person non-judgmental listening is the most powerful tool and by non-judgmental I basically mean you don't say much like you just listen to them talk and you empathize as much as possible because shame cannot survive empathy if you have shame about something and someone gives you empathy for that situation and gosh that must be so hard I can imagine exactly how that must feel I've felt like that before or whatever it is that's the most powerful thing you can do there was research I was reading the other day that was saying that that's the most powerful first step really doesn't have to be a psychologist or a counsellor, telling someone what you're going through

and then them just listening to you is huge. But you know that feeling. Like anything you go through which is difficult, when you eventually tell somebody with a lot of tears involved, that feeling you get afterwards, like you have this like, oh, you can't take like a deep breath. It's almost like this enormous relief. Like you just feel a lot lighter because of the conversation

you've just had. Laura and I are so lucky that we unload on each other all the time. Like we've become so close that we don't even really need to be asked. We'll be like, hey, how are you? I'm not good. We just start crying and then we just sit there and we're like, that's cool. Let's just like cry it out for a minute and then that's it. But it took a long time to get somebody in our life that we felt comfortable doing that

with. But I think it's really great if you can find that soundboard. Yeah. How did that come about for you both? Like, was it just one of you opened up one day? Who had the breakdown first? No, I mean, our friendship kind of evolved over the podcast. Like, it's really funny for us because I think, you know, from the get go, people assumed

that Britt and I were really close friends but we didn't really know each other we we'd met a few times and had been friends because we'd shared a common experience being the bachelor but when it actually came to starting the podcast we really only had started to become friends it was just that we had core conversations and similar ideas on things that we wanted to be able to have on like we were like you know this is the stuff that we would love to be able to have a conversation about and you know we have different perspectives we've had different life experiences and then through us having these like really genuine conversations like unpacking loads of different topics attachment theory love languages everything you know and sharing so much time together we've

you know become the best of friends as well like that's grown as a result of the podcast but when you touched on two points which are massive to the resilient project and the and the whole thing that it's being built around you've touched on empathy and you've touched on gratitude but one of the other core beliefs that you have is this idea of mindfulness now Can you talk me through what that means to you and why it's so important for the Resilience Project? Yes. I remember 8.30 to 9 o'clock every single morning in this school in India, the kids would sit down and they'd have their hands. It looked like they were saying their prayers. And for the first couple of weeks, I thought that's what they were doing. I thought

they were saying their prayers. And the principal said, no, it's meditation. And this is back in 2008. And I thought, oh my gosh, what a ridiculous waste of time. There's poor kids doing half-narrow meditation every morning before school. But then I realized something. It was optional. no one had to be there every single child turned up and some parents as well and all the teachers are there and i was the only one not doing it so we kind of joined in and i remember i mean had a profound a profound impact on me and i got back to australia remember i was at footy training i used to play football back then and i told some of the guys at footy i said oh we should you know we should be doing meditation and i'll never forget the look on their faces and at that point

i realized the way we talk about in australia needs to be different because all of us not all us. A lot of us, especially men, have this stereotypical thought that it's sitting there, legs crossed, hand in the air, making weird noises, which it can be, but you don't have to. There's many other ways. And mindfulness, this is how I'd explain it. Now, if you are, anyone listening, if you are deep into the experience of mindfulness, I apologize if you find this a bit of a basic or simple description of mindfulness. But here's what mindfulness is to me. It is the ability to be, just be wherever you are, to just be present. And we are so bad at that in 2021. There's research, I was at a conference and a psychologist said this and I

didn't find out where she'd heard this from, but she said, we spend 49% of our day thinking about the future and we spend 34% of our day thinking about the past. So we get around about 15% of our day where we're actually thinking about what's happening as it's happening. And we're not bad people, but you both know what that feels like. That's like having a hectic day and you just think, I just want to be at home having dinner with my partner or family or kids, whatever it isn't. And you're sitting around the dinner table and you realize something. Five minutes later, you haven't listened to a word anyone said because you're thinking about an email you send the next day or an issue that took place during the day or what you read on social media

somewhere else. Or even worse, we're grabbing our phone and checking stuff while we're having dinner with people. We just got to get better. And we're not bad people. We just got to get better at being wherever we are because we can't control the past. And we're spending a third of our day thinking about it. Worrying about, thinking about something you cannot control is quite anxiety provoking so by its very nature not being present it makes us quite anxious the only thing we ever have control over in our lives the only thing we ever have control over is what is happening right now in this moment right now that's all we've got control of but we're not showing up for enough of that time and i think our devices are largely to blame i think the way

we live our lives is so counter to being present you know but i think the more practice and the only way to become more mindfulness is to practice. And I know a lot of people are probably practicing apps. There are some great apps out there, my favorite app. Waking Up is terrific, Headspace, Calm, Insight Timer is a beautiful free one. You can do that. But you can also do things like, other people would say, going for a swim in the ocean or going for a swim is my mindfulness. All I do is think about how the water feels on my skin or other people say running, they just listen to their breathing. You can walk a lap of the block. You can pay attention to what you can hear when you walk your lap of the block. And every time your mind goes somewhere else, bring it back to

to your breathing or to what you can hear or what you can feel or what you can see in that moment. As long as you're thinking about what's happening now, you are being mindful. And the more time we spend practicing that, the better we get at it. And I think we all know instinctively, I mean, we all know when we're not present. Like you're chatting to someone, you get a buzz in your pocket, someone's like, you've got a notification, you're thinking, who is that? Would it be this person? I need to check that. Or I say it again, it's the only thing we can control over is what's happening in that moment, but we're not showing up for enough of that. It's definitely something that we have to make an effort to do it's not something that's ever going to come naturally

we have to consciously say I am going to be more mindful I am going to be more present I am going to go to this lunch with my friend and I am not going to pick up my phone I don't think we can just rely on it happening organically it's not something that's going to happen organically you need to consciously make the decision and action it because nothing in your life is going to change unless you make a change and also that reminds me a little bit of like when we had we did a really big episode with osha gunsberg around anxiety and one of the things he said which i still remember is this idea of like we go to the gym to take care of our bodies like we work out we have to put in effort if we want to have a six-pack but we don't really do that much conscious effort on

our minds and what effort and what work are we putting in to make sure that our minds stay healthy and that our brains stay healthy and the reality is is like so much of who we are as a person and what we stand for and what makes us us is our thoughts it's our mind and there needs to be work that's done there to ensure that we are able to be happy and grateful and mindful and all the other things and I know that this is not a new concept and we've all heard of this before but just being really conscious about carving out time in your day to be able to better yourself just to add to that I think it's so true one of the things that I have found really helpful is leaving my phone at home. Certain places I go to, if I go to the park with my kids or going to get coffee with my

wife, whatever it is, just leaving your phone at home so you just don't have a choice. And you'll notice about 10 minutes in, you get a bit antsy. You find yourself kind of going, oh, I just want to grab my phone right now. But after you get through that awkward stage of like, I just want to be checking my phone, you start to just relax a little bit more and you start to just enjoy the feeling of properly being. It's just too tempting. There is so much awesome stuff on our phones. it's just too tempting. You can say to yourself, I won't check it for the next 10 minutes, but I know I am waiting on that email. I need to check that. And then 20 minutes later, you'd like neck deep in Instagram and you leave it at home and just watch what happens. So what else can you say

we could do, little or big, things that we could change in our day-to-day that can help us, I guess, be more present, be more mindful, improve our mental health and just improve our life as a whole? If I said you've got to give two bits of advice to people that will help them experience better well-being, I feel like for a lot of people, I'd just be saying, just get a good pair of runners and don't go on your phone as much. I feel like they're the two most basic, like exercise and getting off your phone. There's a story that I tell about this kid in India who whenever he saw something he was really grateful for, he'd point to it. He couldn't say the word this. The TH is too hard for him. English is his third language. Instead, he would say this. Whenever

he saw something he was grateful for, it was shoes. He would go, sir, this. This, what he was saying was, how lucky am I to have shoes on my feet? Some of the kids in the school don't have shoes but i do well lunchtime would come around and he would get some steamed rice because he couldn't afford lunch so the school would give him lunch he'd walk past with his steamed rice and go sir this this this what he was saying was how lucky am i to have lunch every day now that went vile for a while people were calling it this moment people were doing hashtag this moment on instagram and it went berserk for quite some time a couple of scott pendlebury did it on his social with afl football did it his so and then it went took off and billy slater did it and

caitlin bassett did all these people did it and so it went off and but what i noticed was i got tagged in all of them. What I noticed was I would say 95% of them, the dis moments were people either out in nature or exercising. So, I mean, they did use their device to capture it. So it's like... Look, baby steps, Hugh, baby steps. Yeah, baby steps. But okay, to come back to your question, if I had to do two things, it'd be get off your phone and exercise more. But I would say embrace vulnerability as a strength. I would say just see any vulnerable opportunities that are opportunity to be strong. There's a guy I do a lot of work with who plays for Port Adelaide. His name's Charlie Dixon. And he told me his story a couple of years ago around stuff and

depression and how he was struggling. And I said, have you told your teammates this? And he said, no. And I said, why? And he said, he's the biggest, toughest man I've ever seen in my life. And he was like, well, my job is to be the tough person. That's not really my... I said, if a teammate of yours told you that they were struggling with depression, would that be tough or would that be weak? And he said, it'd be unbelievably tough. I said, why is it different for you. And about a few months later, maybe it was a year later, he had the opportunity to talk to his teammates about what he was going through. I've never seen anything like it. Like he is getting hugged by every single one of his mates. They're all telling him they're here for him.

The support, they've all got his back, all that kind of stuff. If we view vulnerability as a strength, not a weakness, we are going to break down so many barriers that are currently holding us back and I know it's a big step and I know that's just like I'm giving you like a cliche but it's true anything you're struggling with if you can find the strength and I'm not saying get up in front of a room full of 43 men like Charlie did but find your person like you two are lucky you've got each other most people in this world will have one or maybe two people they can turn to to be truly vulnerable have a think who that person is for you like have a think who is that person in your life who you know instantly when something goes wrong you think

I need to tell this person. Really, first of all, how lucky are you to have that person in your life? And when you need to be vulnerable, when you feel you're struggling with something, get in touch with that person and be vulnerable. I think that's probably, if I could summarize everything we talked about today, I think for today, it's like, yeah, vulnerability is a strength. Embrace it. Hugh, thank you so much for making time to come on the pod and to share just your teachings and the things that you've been advocating for through the Resilience Project. can you please tell everybody who's listening where they can find you and how they can listen to you if they want to find out more now find me in lockdown so you can go to our website

the resilienceproject.com.au you'll find links to my book to the podcast to the app i mean i do think the podcast is a nice place to engage in first because as i said before it's very accessible ryan shelton is just so unbelievably funny my brother is just the most beautifully intelligent insightful person he's gone from being a tech person to now just being so much smarter and more intelligent and insightful than we are so it's kind of become his podcast all of a sudden but i think that's a nice place to start but i yeah i love that you guys are having you know having you to in a sense advocate vulnerability and you do it every single episode some of the stuff you talk about i still can't believe you you do it but it's it's you're mumbling

we like to share everything here on life uncut yeah but you do it you do it in a way that like The episode I listened to the other day was like you were saying, do people call it stiffies or boners? I was in my head going, I think it's boners. I was like, hang on a minute, why am I going to take this so seriously? No, it's a boner. Laura thinks it's a stiffy. She thinks it's a stiffy and I'm like, bro, it's not.

I'm living my 90210 best life over here. It's definitely a stiffy. I'm an 80s girl. Thank you. Thank you so much. Honestly, I love the stuff that you advocate for and I love the teachings that you preach. And, guys, if you do want to listen to Hugh's podcast,

it's called The Imperfects. We'll put some details in the show notes for this. And, yeah, thank you so much for taking your time today. That's a pleasure. Thank you for having me in it. And I'll just finish with a very big hello to your biggest fan, Talisa, a good friend of mine who is just obsessed with you guys. Hello, Talisa.

Yes. Shout out. Shout out. And thanks for the kind words. Absolute pleasure, guys. Thanks so much for having me. You know we never finish an episode without our suck in our sweet, our highlight, and our low light of the week,

the best and the worst and i'm gonna kick it off come at me bro did i say what it was suck and sweet did i even introduce that segment no just keep going it's fine oh wow it is called suck and sweet i'm gonna kick it off my suck actually i'm doing it backwards we have strict rules guys if you're new to suck and sweet we have strict rules the suck always goes first and you finish with the sweet but i'm gonna flip it around this week because i made the rules so i can break the rules the suite of the week is I'm like I said at the start of the episode I am in New York I did get to watch Jordan play the US Open and that is definitely my suite I think just after being apart for so long and I love nothing more than watching him play he's just very good at what

he does and I think watching someone you love succeed at anything in life it's just it's a really feel-good thing so for me that was my suite my suck was that while I was there I got full-on heat stroke like I was like pretty much passed out I vomited I was just I just hadn't had any water I was sitting in the sun for too long this body hasn't seen the sun in a while so I got heat stroke and that was my suck how did I not know this how are you like hey I passed out at the US Opens and I just forgot to mention it until the end of the episode because it wasn't it wasn't at the US Open it wasn't until I got home heat stroke hits you a bit later like it's like a cumulative effect wasn't until I got back home that Jordan was like are you okay like you don't

look very well and I was just like I am not okay and that was the end of me but it's like it was there's nothing serious I was fine he splashed some water on my face I had to lay down I had some panadol and that was it I don't stress yourself too much Laura actually heat stroke's not something you're gonna get is it because you can't go outside that's too soon it's oh hey Brittany fuck you too okay my suck and sweet my suck is talking to you Brittany my suck for the week we all know I'm not going to keep on harboring on about the current situation that the whole thing is still pretty sucky and the the never-endingness to it is very sucky but my suck for the week is not lockdown it is the fact that my toddler my two-year-old does not

eat like it doesn't matter what I do it doesn't matter what I cook the only thing she will eat is snacks and the only thing she wants to eat is like unhealthy snacks so every single day it's a battle from the minute she wakes up until the moment she goes to bed it's like she she wants jelly beans she wants like just literal shit that we don't give her because obviously like I'm not going to sustain her like my two-year-old child on a diet of sugar she can't say jelly beans she says Jolene's so now every time she asks for a Jolene we're like Jolene Jolene Jolene Jolene and it gets her really angry and it's quite funny to watch a two-year-old get angry whilst you're seeing Dolly partner can you just starve her out no you can't starve them out you just I just I just keep on

making like a whole variety like a plethora of different types of food hoping that she'll eat like my kid has a smorgasbord a degustation every day and she just grazes from like a carrot a piece of bread a little snack here it's so infuriating it's so infuriating cooking actually nice food which I don't even do for Matt or myself and then watching her not eat any of it drives me crazy so that's my suck my sweet for the week is that it was father's day we had a cute day yesterday and when I say we had a cute day we went for a walk and everyone was happy thank you and Marley didn't have jelly beans for breakfast and we just got to spend some really really sweet family time together and it was actually a bit sucky because like at the moment the postal system's here

everything is really delayed with delivery so Matt's present didn't arrive but we did get a really gorgeous big breakfast from a cafe and we kind of set it up and had like a little cafe experience at home so that was really really nice and wholesome and it's great to spend some really quality time with like Matt and the kids when we're not trying to kill each other so that's my sweet I did see that your little picnic lunch it looked very cute indeed just like it's so crazy to us that like it's now been two years of being dad and mom and I know that that sounds so weird because like to you guys you all know us now it's like having kids but every so often we're like when did this happen yeah how did this happen that was that two minutes worth it

it was the best seven minutes of my life but now i'm paying for it cumulative seven minutes anyway guys that is it from us and we hope you enjoyed this episode we'll be back on thursday with ask uncut if you have any accidentally unfiltered stories for us slide on into our dms at life uncut podcast send us a dm with your ask uncut questions you can send it through there as well and if you have been one of those little naughty scallywags who hasn't jumped onto apple podcast yet and left us a review please jump on there let us know what you thought of the episode and you know the drill tell your mom tell your dad tell your dog tell your friends share the love because we love love

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