Life Uncut - Groomed And Abused Daily By His Step Mother. Then He Changed the Law - Uncut with Harrison James

Episode Date: May 21, 2026

Harrison James is an award-winning activist, author, and co-founder of the national law reform campaign #YourReferenceAintRelevant. Before all of that, he was a 13-year-old boy who became a victim of abuse that no child should ever experience. After his parents separated, Harri moved in with his father at 13, seeking connection and a fresh start. What followed was years of grooming and sexual abuse at the hands of his stepmother; abuse that resulted in a pregnancy, a daughter Harri was forced to call his sister, and a web of silence and shame that nearly cost him his life. Harri has since channelled that pain into something extraordinary. His #YourReferenceAintRelevant campaign,which he co-founded with fellow survivor Jarad Grice, has now driven legislative change across multiple jurisdictions, abolishing the use of good character references in the sentencing of convicted sex offenders. He's also the author of Transform Your Pain into Purpose, a part-memoir, part-practical guide for survivors and advocates. We chat: The turbulent household Harri grew up in and why his parents' divorce made him so vulnerable How grooming actually works and why it looks exactly like love and care to a child who's starved of both The moment Harry's dad walked in on the abuse and did nothing What it was like to be a 15-year-old boy secretly caring for his own baby daughter while calling her his sister The day his stepmother fled to the Philippines  How Harry ended up at a mental health facility at 19, and why that saved his life His first experience of good character references: watching them being read aloud at his own father's DV sentencing Why good character references are not just unfair they're the very thing that enables abuse to happen in the first place The long, politically complicated road to law reform, and what's still left to do Harry's partner Bella, their unexpected love story, and the baby girl they're expecting You can follow Harrison on Instagram @itsharrijames You can get Transform Your Pain into Purpose at all good bookstores. Timestamps 0:00 — Trigger warning & introducing Harrison James 2:30 — What Harri's childhood looked like before his parents separated 5:45 — Choosing his dad at 13: the appeal of freedom and a fresh start 9:12 — How the grooming started 16:28 — His dad walked in on the abuse. His response was devastating 20:06 — The vasectomy: his dad's impossible denial of what was right in front of him 21:08 — Finding out his stepmother was pregnant on the school bus 33:00 — Telling his mum the truth for the first time 37:12 — Going public in 2022: why Harry posted that raw 11-minute Instagram video 40:30 — The good character references read aloud at his father's DV sentencing and how the campaign was born 46:48 — Writing Transform Your Pain into Purpose  48:30 — Meeting co-founder Jarad over a beer at the pub 52:00 — How abuse warped Harry's understanding of love and how Bella changed everything 56:17 — The campaign's wins: NSW, ACT, Victoria, Tasmania and New Zealand 58:20 — Sitting in the courtroom at Paul Frost's sentencing, and the moment he walked past the Downing Centre knowing it had changed 1:06:00 — Why this campaign isn't just legislative: it's a cultural shift 1:08:30 — His message to every survivor: you don't have to change a law to be worthy You can watch us on Youtube Find us on Instagram Join us on tiktok Or join the Facebook Discussion Group Hosted by Laura Byrne & Keeshia Pettit  Produced by Keeshia Pettit Video Produced by Vanessa Beckford & Lachy Pugsley Tell your mum, tell your dad, tell your dog, tell your friend and share the love because WE LOVE LOVE! XxSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hi guys and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Laura and I'm Keisha. Now before we get into today's interview I do want to say that this interview discusses themes of childhood sexual abuse and trauma and I think it's really important that we put a trigger warning at the start of this. Help is always available at 1-800-RESPECT. I don't want to say I'm looking forward to this interview because it feels as though that's the wrong thing to describe it but Harrison James is an incredible person who has done incredible things in this space and we are very fortunate to have him in the studio today. Harry's story is truly incredibly traumatic to hear. Harry was first abused by his stepmother as a teenager at the time he was only 13 years old

and what makes this story even more complex is that the abuse lasted for years and resulted in a pregnancy that led to the birth of Harry's daughter. Now, Harry was coerced into keeping that abuse a secret, and he was also forced into acting as though his daughter was actually his sister when he was only just a teenager himself. Harry has gone on to become an award-winning activist and co-founded the National Law Reform Campaign, which is Your Reference Ain't Relevant. He's also published his first book, Transform Your Pain Into Purpose, which is truly incredible. We're going to get into all of that in today's interview. Prior to the Your Reference Ain't relevant campaign, good character references could be used and held weight during the sentencing of

perpetrators. Now, if you're not familiar with what a good character reference is when it comes to sentencing, there is a particularly, I guess, famous case of this. Now, Mila Kunis and Ashton Kutcher back in 2023, when Danny Masterson, who was that 70s show co-star that they were very close with, was going through his sentencing for forcible rape, they provided good character references for him. Now, these good character references, they were letters that asked the judge for leniency, describing Masterson as an outstanding role model, an exceptional older brother figure, and a positive influence on their lives. This is the very thing that Harry has been campaigning against in Australia, because up until recently, if you were convicted of child

sexual assault charges, good character references could be used in the court case, and they could be used during your own sentencing to give a more lenient sentence. Harry, welcome to Life Uncut. Thank you so much for having me on. I mean, I've heard your story and you tell your story a couple of times now, but something that I feel as though I have missed is your parents went through a separation and that's when you kind of had a bit of a division between you and your dad. What was your childhood like prior to your parents separating? Well, it was quite a tumultuous household, to be honest. It was a house that was rife with

domestic violence and perpetrated by my father. And that led to the divorce, as you say, when I was a 10-year-old boy. And because my parents were so focused on their divorce, I, as a child, felt I had to choose a side. So I was swinging back and forth. And I didn't see my dad for three years until I was 13 years old. And I was this young boy entering high school, didn't have a male figure around him. And, you know, my father was really my only option. And that's when I thought, you know, as an innocent child, the abuse that I experienced at the hands of him, you know, that'll all go away. You know, he would have changed and we built this sort of relationship around going to the gym. I remember I hated sports and I hated like anything physical

like that. I just wasn't that type of boy, but I wanted to go to the gym to make an effort with him. And I remember that was our point of connection around that time. What was it like with your, I mean, I can only imagine as a kid when your parents go through a separation and you feel as though you have to choose a side. I think that's a very relatable thing that a lot of kids go through. What was it and what did it do to your relationship with your mom when you said, hey, I'm going to go and rekindle this relationship with dad. And then ultimately I'm going to go and move in with dad. Yeah. Well, it was for a 13 year old boy, I'm the eldest of four, right? So it was actually a very attractive sort of proposition to move in with my dad and have my

own bedroom near the beach and you know have that sense of freedom and not be bombarded by my little brothers and sisters and because there was that swinging back and forth and my parents would talk about each other and I felt I had to take that aside and I felt so strongly about that that I had to be absolute in my decision and when I decided on my father because of that you know that sense of freedom that I thought I would have and you know I was really tricked into thinking that my dad had changed and he'd gone from being me as a kid to a reformed man in my mind as a 13 year old kid I didn't have that language at all I have the language now but to go back there and to have that connection it felt incredibly validating like I'd lost something for all those

years and I think because my parents were so focused on their divorce and they were bickering back and forth I just felt so disregarded I think I felt like an afterthought almost and that is what gave my stepmother an ample amount of room to involve herself I think for a lot of kids that go through like a violent upbringing you get really used to walking on eggshells in your own home and kind of like that whole oh you grow up so quickly because you enter your own home and you know that you could be walking into something that's peaceful you could be walking into something that is incredibly volatile and you get so used to having to kind of switch gears to try and mediate the anger and the violence. I imagine that going and living with your dad and having this,

you know, fresh start mentality would have felt really exciting and you probably had a lot of hope. What was your relationship like with your step-mom initially? It was non-eventful to begin with. You know, she was from the Philippines and I hadn't been to the wedding or anything like that when they got married and she was just sort of there she was just sort of an entity that was in the house and i moved in and it was only like that for a short period of time until she invited to take me to the movies and we went to the cinema for the first time and then that's when like the touching on the leg started and the hand holding and the the kissing and stuff like that and i remember when we were heading home from that experience she said do you hug your real mom

like this and she was like instilling that sense of guilt into me that i made a choice to do this even from the very beginning that constant coercion and that gradual breaking down of boundaries that that's grooming 101 it really is like incomprehensible to think through and i know there's so much to your story that we're going to get into how long was this period so like you You moved into your dad's house, the period, I guess, of like, you know, being like, yeah, that's my step-mom. I'm guessing you didn't really have that much of a close connection or relationship with her.

It was a matter of weeks. It happened that quickly. Yeah, it was very quickly. It was very quick. And when my stepmother, you know, asked me to go to the movies, you know, she just sort of framed it as, oh, let's connect. It's like, you know, you're going to live here now. Let's be stepmother and stepson.

Let's connect in that way. But yeah, the first few weeks, it wasn't like that until that initial thing. And then that's when it's sort of the gradual erosion of those boundaries, as I said, came into fruition. But I also want to touch on something that you said before about, you know, walking into a household and it's like a minefield because that's what it is. And that's fawning. When you're exposed to that for so many years, for my stepmother to see me in that moment,

you know, for the first time, it felt like I was loved and that I was seen and that I was heard. So I was just in it hook, line and sinker from the outset, you know, I thought, oh my god an adult is finally cherishing me and choosing me and choosing me yeah showing me affection and love and care yeah even if it was completely warped yeah it was still a form of love and care in my mind what was the i guess your dad's behavior like at this point because you know you say you move back in thinking he's a changed man thinking that i guess like the volatile outbursts are going to end what was he like that didn't last very long yeah yeah it never does yeah it never

does I mean throughout the course of me living with him like this yeah we'll get into when the sexual abuse ceased but throughout that period of time when I was living in that household he became physical towards me again and stuff like that so it just it went back to how it was before was he physical towards your stepmom as well uh I was told that he was to her by her but again I don't know if that was just a tactic for her to ingratiate me into feeling a sense of guilt for her because for that entire period I felt as though I had to protect my stepmother I felt I was the man in the relationship that's what she told me what it also does is is it also means it's the two of you verse him yes it creates this like it creates a dynamic yeah and also it also creates

a sense of sympathy for her you know she's a victim she's a victim as well and I'm protecting her and that's what ingratiated me into that keeping silent for so long about the explicit at sexual abuse but you know i was maintaining this brave face to protect her i think as well like i mean and from everything i've heard you speak about in your experience when you're 13 years old and you're having these experiences with your stepmother and like the abuse that's happening to you you don't realize that that is abuse and i mean socially even the way in which she's framing it the way in which you're framing it to yourself it's like and i don't want to say that you're like happy in that moment but you're like happy that you're getting that connection

with her and how sick it is is that that is how it can be interpreted but you aren't to know any different because you're a child yes and as a child you don't have language to explain that yeah let alone understand the situation for what it really is you know i only had language to boil it down to oh we were having an affair behind my dad's back so i knew something was wrong i knew there was that feeling of something is not quite right here. As a 13 year old, I don't have the language to talk about grooming and being abused. Like, I don't know what that is. I just know what I know. And I just put it all down to, I felt this sense of shame because I was participating in an affair behind my dad's back. You also probably felt the shame because you felt responsible.

Exactly. She instilled that from the outset. You are part of this. You are making a decision in this you are the man in this relationship if you say anything we both go to jail I remember walking past cop cars and my stomach dropping because I thought the police were going to arrest me you think about what it is that you experience as a 13 year old kid and then you put on your backpack and you go to school like that image of like how young a 13 year old is you're in year seven like these are very very adult feelings and very I guess like adult responsibilities that are being placed on someone that doesn't have the ability to comprehend what's happening to them at that age.

Do you think, and I guess I'd love to understand your experience on this, that we view sexual assault to boys differently to how we view sexual assault to girls? I think there's an element of truth in that, but I also think that we struggle as a society, we struggle to hold the fact that two things can be true at once. And I think, yes, it is incredibly valid that I'm a male, I was a victim of sexual abuse, my perpetrator was a woman, but we can acknowledge the discrepancies without disregarding the wider issue, which is that sexual abuse and sexual violence, for that matter, disproportionately happens to women and children. And I think we can accept the anomalies without disregarding the truth of the matter.

And I think that's really important for someone like me to say, especially as a male activist who speaks out against these issues, because we have to look at this as a whole of society issue, not this or that. It all bears true at the same time. And I think that's really important to acknowledge. harry i'm cautious of my wording around this and i know that it's it's complex because it's abuse yeah but my question is whether your first experiences and it's the word experiences that i'm toying with that i'm like that's not the right word but were your first sexual experiences with your stepmom yes my virginity was taken by my stepmother right which has so many more implications than people realize yeah because not only do you not have the comprehension of

the fact that this is abuse you've also got no other experiences to compare any of it to no you have no good experiences to compare or contrast with exactly right but also the fact of the matter is it bleeds into every aspect of your life from that point on not just in a sexual experience like it was so hard to engage in a relationship after in a normal way it was so hard to sit at a party as a 15-year-old boy and listen to mates talk about, oh yeah, I lost my virginity at a party and me have to feel as though I have to lie to protect my stepmother. So I made up stories and that was my baseline. That's all I knew my entire childhood, walking into that minefield, feeling as though something's going to blow up at some point. That anxiety is not normal for any

child to feel. And I've been dealing with the ramifications of that for my entire life now. talk me through this period and this like three years that this kind of stemmed over i guess like what was the exposure like for you you're seeing your stepmom every day you're having to keep this secret was your dad always in the house like talk me through what living together and this experience was like yeah for sure so my father when this was first happening was starting up his business now i won't get into the specifics of what the business is or anything because I don't want him to laugh. He was busy. He was starting up his business. He was flying interstate and he was not in the house all that much. He would go either to work first thing in

the morning and would get home very late at night. I remember the first time that penetrative sexual abuse occurred was on a Wednesday evening because my dad would fly to Queensland every other Wednesday. And then that was an opportunity for my stepmother too. That was the first penetrative form of sexual abuse sorry to be graphic but that's just what it was in the lead up front so from that time at the movie theater to the first act of it there was gradual touching hand holding kissing and it just slowly but surely evolved into this bigger thing and from that point on it happened every morning and every afternoon before and after school for those three years and the final act of sexual abuse occurred on my 16th birthday why did it end it ended it's interesting

well we have to get to a point that we haven't spoken about yet which is my daughter being born into the world so when I was 15 years old my stepmother fell pregnant to my daughter who I had to pretend was my sister so I wasn't faced with further consequences of abuse at the hands of my father like I was fearful that he would find out and I'm sure we'll touch on that more but just to answer your question, it ended because, so the last act of sexual abuse happened on my 16th birthday, which is the 7th of January. And we ended up, my daughter was born in December of 2015. So I was 15 turning 16. That's when it ceased. And we were taking the newborn baby over to the Philippines to show the baby to my stepmother's family. And essentially we were

in the Philippines, my father and my stepmother's sister and her friend were taking me out drinking and clubbing, which is no place that a 16-year-old should be. But that is when I was sexually assaulted by another perpetrator. So it was my stepmother's sister's friend who sexually abused me, the person I was going out and drinking with. And my stepmother saw that as an opportunity to get out of her entanglement with me by accusing me of being a cheater and saying that I played up on her with this other woman when really I was sexually abused. And I actually believed that. I was like, yeah, okay, yeah, I fucked up. And then that's when she sort of saw that as an out to distance herself from me. But that didn't mean that the grip she had on me ceased.

I was still believing for years and years and years after that that's the mother of my child. I need to protect her I can't say anything because my daughter deserves the father that I didn't have yeah so I want to be the best version of a father that I could for her I mean I want to unpack this part of your story more but I do want to go back to before you found out about your daughter and about the fact that your stepmother was pregnant there was a time when your dad walked in on you yes that he discovered that you and your stepmother were having this relationship what happened there and how did that I guess like how did that never evolve into a greater conversation in your household well it beats me yeah I can imagine but he walked in on me being abused by

my stepmother we were laying in the bed and she was kissing me and he sort of stood there and watched it for a little bit which was really sick but he watched it and then he erupted and screened the roof off the place then my stepmother stayed in the lounge room that evening he was in his bedroom i was in my bedroom and the next morning i wake up and it's about 7 a.m no one's in the house they've obviously gone so i've still got this sense of anxiety like oh i've done the wrong thing i've been caught and i get a phone call from my father and he said if i ever see you doing that again you watch what i fucking do to you and that was the response and i just was bawling my eyes out i put my tie on put my backpack on

and went to the eighth grade at school just went and sat and got the bus to school it's unfathomable and it also reiterates the narrative that your stepmom manipulated you with that you were a consenting party to this relationship that it was an affair that it was an abuse and your father blaming you for that only would solidify reinforce that's what i'm after when your dad walked in and he obviously held abuse at you and said you know he was going to kill you if he ever catches you doing it again and had i'm sure some very severe conversations with your stepmother what were the conversations that the two of you had after that because she was missing that morning he was missing that morning surely the two of you discussed it yeah we did and it just fueled the conversations

about how we can do this more covertly got to be safer you've got to delete your messages after every time we speak delete delete delete she would do this thing where if we were sitting on the couch all together she would like trace my back and she would do two two four e which meant love you forever but it was just like a thing that she would do keep that in plain sight yeah in plain sight just that constant grip of you're still involved you're not going anywhere i'm not going anywhere and my stepmother had this and a lot of perpetrators of child sexual abuse specifically have this thing where they make the entire like the victim's entire world view everything good comes from that perpetrator and everything bad comes from that perpetrator

so you are in this constant state of wanting to please the person who's abusing you as twisted as it sounds but all the good comes from them and all the bad comes from them if you do the wrong thing it's just a really vicious cycle that's what kept me in it for so long another component to his relentless denial of the fact that his own son was being abused by his own partner was the moment that your stepmom did become pregnant your dad had had a vasectomy yep prior to even meeting her yep it's just unfathomable to anyone who listens to your story to think like at what point can you stop denying that this is happening and can you stop denying that it's still happening in your household how did you find out about the pregnancy

what was your reaction what was their reaction so yeah right my dad did have a vasectomy and just And I had pure ego, pure denial, wanting to bury his head in the sand, not wanting to admit it. I can't speak on his behalf. I don't know what the thinking was. I don't know what the excuse is. But the fact of the matter is he turned a blind eye to it. And that is disgraceful. I found out about my stepmother being pregnant.

I was on the bus going home from school. I was on, it's 360. I was staying at, because they were overseas, my dad and my stepmom. They were in Thailand. not the Philippines, where they were just on a holiday in Thailand. And she sent me a message on Facebook Messenger saying, I'm pregnant. My whole world just collapsed. I went, oh my God, we're going to get caught.

This is it. This is the end of it. I'm going to go to jail. You're going to go to jail. We're going to be found out. My dad's going to kill me. That's literally, that's the thought process. And I responded, don't tell dad.

Do not tell him. and she said i already have and he thinks it's his and he just went with that narrative i can't again i can't explain why there's no rationale or scenario in that i've tried to think of thousands and thousands on it like i can't come up with a decent rational way of thinking as to how he got to that point but that's where he was and he's denied my abuse he still denies it to this day do you think he had any i mean it seems silly to say like he had no idea he clearly walked in on the two of you together but do you think he was in such denial that he didn't think it was still going on i think he was in such denial i think he also in his twisted in the twisted sort

of narrative that we have culturally the same sort of narrative that my stepmother pushed upon me was that Harry's a young boy of course he wanted this I still think that's my father's mindset to this day when you found out that your stepmom was having a baby and you knew it was your baby how do you rationalize that as a 15 year old boy like how do you accept that you're going to play the role of an older brother like what did that look like for you I don't think there's any logic to thinking there's a rationale to this it's just survival it's just play it by ear fawn stick to the story like don't deviate I didn't go to house parties I didn't associate with friends outside of school I would just keep my head down and stick to the story protect my stepmother and my daughter

at all costs it was just pure survival I don't know how else to articulate it other than that That's just what it was. I remember as a 15-year-old kid, I knew that my father was awful to me. So the only narrative that I could tell myself was I'm going to be a better father to my daughter than my dad was to me. And that's all I kept telling myself. And that was my guiding light through that period of time. Did you feel as though you were able to be parental in the role that you were taking? Yeah, it's interesting because my partner, Bella and I were talking about this the other day because I don't really outwardly speak about moments of severe abuse to her because it's obviously distressing but we've got a baby on

the way and we were talking about night feeding like what it's like to feed a baby at night and she went you wouldn't have done that and I went no I did I would look after the baby and feed her at night when I was a 15 year old boy but only when my father was away so when anyone else was present the narrative was on the generous and kind older brother who really looks after his little sister but once it was just us in the household that would all melt away and we would play happy families so you would assume then the role of being a dad and behaving in the way of what a dad would do yeah and then because my father was out of the house the veil was gone and even though i was in this dynamic of abuse i didn't know that i thought oh my god i can

finally live out the truth i say in parentheses which is we're in a loving relationship without But yeah, I'm a dad. This is the dream. Yep. There's a component that I've only just thought about, and that's that your father being very violent and abusive and already warning you of what he would do to you. Once your daughter was born, I can only imagine that you also wanted to protect her because if this truth ended up actually coming out, that also puts her safety at risk.

I was jeopardizing my safety and hers. You're 100% right. That was a constant thought process in my mind. it's just, it's so much weight for an adult to carry. I can't even imagine the complexity of what would be going through a teenager's mind and the fact that no teenager would ever be equipped to deal with that. You lost contact with your daughter when your step-mom fled back to the Philippines. From what I understand, you haven't had contact with her since, which is really, really sad. I'm so sorry that you've had to experience that. What happened on the day that

you found out that your stepmother had left and taken her with her yeah that was an incredibly traumatic day so my father as I think I've painted an adequate picture of here he's like a bull to a red rag if you wave something at him he'll go for that and my stepmother acutely was aware of how he operates and before she fled to the Philippines and got on the flight she knew that she needed to created distractions so she could escape and she sent my father an email falsely accusing me of raping her so I had to come forward and say no that that didn't happen I didn't do that I didn't tell him obviously but my biological mother was forwarded the email as well picked me up and then that's when I was sitting in the passenger seat of the car I was looking straight ahead at the road

and I told her I was in a relationship with my stepmother and there's a very real likelihood that my sister's actually my daughter I said the word relationship because I still even after all those years of coercion and being told this certain I was still sticking to the script of I was an active participant in this how old were you at this point 19 the thing is and what people don't necessarily realize is that when you have been groomed for so long it takes so much reconditioning to understand that what you experienced as a child was abuse especially if your version of love has been coupled into the abuse which is what often happens if it's not a siloed sexual assault experience but it's groomed over systemic long periods of time

you as a child think you think that's love yeah and so then even as an adult you still assume the responsibility of protecting that person that you loved as a child i mean we do it not with sexual assault but we do it to parents who have been abusive to us and sometimes it takes people many years if ever do they get to a point where they go you know what I realize my parents don't love me in a way that actually parents should protect and love their their kids what was it and I guess obviously that email must have been a real turning point for you in the road what was it that made you start to realize what you had experienced was actually abuse yeah so at that point where I did come forward at 19 about what was going on still

didn't have any comprehension that it was abuse but in that year I was dealing with you know being falsely accused of rape losing my daughter and coming to terms with the fact that what I was going through was actually abuse and I didn't want to be here anymore so I had a plan to end my life It was on a Friday afternoon. I said, I'm going to have the best final weekend ever, and then crashed my car on the Monday morning. And yeah, I took every drug under the sun. I drank to oblivion over that weekend. And for some reason, I don't know why, but on the Sunday, I woke up the Sunday morning after having a dream of my mother finding me. And that afternoon I was in a, checked into a mental health facility on Suicide Watch and I just reached out for that help and thank God I did because that is the reason that I'm here today and was able to actually get on the front foot of acknowledging that what I went through is abuse and tackling that portion of my story.

And what did that look like when you went into, checked into a facility? Was that where they were able to help you through that? Yeah, 110%. There was a team of psychologists and therapists, and we did group therapy, and it was just a breakdown of what I went through. I would talk about my story. And also, when you say it out loud, because I never sort of said it out loud. You weren't allowed to. Yeah, I wasn't allowed to.

And you sort of realize, holy shit, this is actually not right. And you sort of come to fruition with it in that. So it was incredibly re-traumatizing and difficult. but that month and a half two months in that mental health facility was the most life-changing aspect and it completely transformed the way i viewed what i went through as well i wasn't completely healed like it wasn't like a fix i don't want to frame it as that i think it's i think it's wrong to to frame it as like i got from one point to another within a month and a half two months that's not what happened but it just gave me the skills and the language to understand what

I was going through and it gave me the skills to sort of be able to to navigate it not to forget about it and move on but to move forward with it what was your mum's reaction when you had this conversation with her when you sat down with her and said we were in a relationship what did your mum say to that her face dropped and she went a ghostly white and I talk about it in the book but I remember saying it to my mum and it felt as though the car was like vacuum sealed around us And it just, the truth just filled any space that was in the car around us. But it was also, that was my mum's initial reaction. But also straight after that, it was, we're going to get you the help you need.

You can live with me. You're not going anywhere near your father. It was just, it was action. And my mum was like, unbelievable. She's amazing that that was her response. And just instinctual as well. How has she coped with, I guess, you know, finding out about the length of your abuse and the lengths of the abuse itself? I can only imagine like naturally as any parent, you would feel as though you have an obligation to protect your child from any harm.

And while it is in no way her fault whatsoever, I don't think that you would be able to alleviate yourself of that guilt. How has she handled it? It's not her fault at all. You say correctly it's and she struggles with that guilt. But I think it's important to understand that that swinging dynamic back and forth with my parents' divorce, having to choose a side, ultimately, no questions asked. You can't have one leg in this side and one, you know, like you had to choose. I cut off my mother. My stepmother coerced me, as I said, in everything that I engaged with in my life revolved around my stepmother.

So there wasn't time for my mum or anything like that. I didn't really see her over those three years. And I think she thought that I had just found, you know, a camaraderie with my stepmother. She never really saw it as anything suspicious because my stepmother not only groomed me into believing it, she groomed my entire support system around me into thinking that she was a safe person for me to be in the care of. Yeah, that was the most important thing that I think I learned from your book. And I know we are going to get into it when we talk about good character references, but

it seems as though every single abuser particularly childhood abuser forms an entire world around the child they are able to spot the vulnerable children they're able to spot where they can infiltrate it and they're able to deceive and convince every single person around them that they're a good person providing some type of love and care to this child who otherwise wouldn't have it have you ever spoken to your stepmother since no you've never had any contact with her never had any contact she fled the country i remember when she was in the process of leaving sending emails because that's all i had to check where my daughter was but it was to no avail i never heard anything and if i were to you know reach out and try getting contact with

my daughter one i'd have to go through my stepmother which is incredibly traumatic for me but also two you know my daughter she turns 11 this year she's autistic and i just think last time she was in this country was when she was three years old she probably wouldn't even remember me and then imagine going to her and saying oh remember that bloke vaguely that was your brother that's actually your father that is just going to disrupt an entire life of this little innocent girl that didn't ask for any of this so i have to accept responsibility as a father and do what the adults in my life should have been doing and has prioritized the children and i'm taking that step and also i have faith that we'll cross paths at a later date when it's more appropriate

because the last thing i want to do is is pass on any form of this trauma to this little girl i think it's been incredible to see as well and i mean for anyone who follows you they would know that you still speak about your daughter you still speak about her in this way that you have endless love for her and i know you mentioned you having a baby now yeah and i saw the post that you put up recently around how the fact that you're having a daughter feels as though it's almost like a second opportunity but doesn't replace the fact that you still already have a daughter in this world the only other thing i want to ask around this is what did your dad do at the time knowing that this was his daughter or he perceived to think that this

was his daughter did he do anything to try and get her back like i mean i don't know what the rules are around being able to jump on a plane and take your child to another country but what rights did he have in this as i would assume he's on the birth certificate so it's it's interesting because my mother my stepmother sorry was very calculated in how she did this because she applied for my daughter to have a filipino passport now i don't want to get into the particulars of it because i don't want anything to be jeopardized with the situation as it is now but i know my father tried to accommodate things i know i tried to sort things out in and see what the legalities of getting my daughter back to this country is and stuff like that but ultimately the emotional

turmoil that could be projected on my daughter far outweighed my need for closure and for my daughter to be with me yeah i know she's got and i know it's i don't really know how to say this without because my stepmother's obviously not a good person but the grandparents around her and stuff like that i know for a fact they love that child abundantly and that she's in a safe space in that it's a hard dynamic to try and convey to an audience online no i understand and also it's now all that that little girl knows like i mean when your whole life from three years old becomes living in the philippines with a filipino family that is culturally socially completely different that is a different life like there is no world in which transplanting that back into

Australia is not going to be. Traumatic. Yeah, exactly. And also too much for an 11 year old to comprehend. What I had to comprehend at 15, 13, 14, 15 was unfathomable. Imagine a little 11 year old girl having to comprehend that. Yeah. Plus comprehend what she's going through as well. And also I'm totally pre-empting the notion that it's not going to be smooth sailing if we ever cross paths again. I hope in my mind that it's going to be rosy and we skip to each other and we hug and we embrace and it's going to be this wonderful reunion but the fact of the matter is it probably isn't going to be that the only tool I have now is to ensure that my daughter knows how loved and adored she is and I've done it with my advocacy with my engagements in the media and

with the book there is a permanency to what I've been doing and saying so when she comes home eventually as I hope she'll have an a legitimate record of how much her father adored her let's Fast forward to 2022. So far, you had shared this truth about the abuse that had been happening with some people in your life, like your family and some close friends. And one day you decided to post a video for everyone to see. What was going through your head and why did you end up wanting to share it publicly? I think it was just denial after denial of what I'd gone through, especially from my father. And I just wanted some form of validation. I think I just wanted to be seen. I wanted to be heard i wanted you know it's it's all good for your mom to say i i'm sorry for what

you went through you're amazing and stuff like that but you don't really believe it but um i think to hear it to make a stand and to make a stamp and just to be like this is what i've been through and just to have some form of connection with anyone outside of who was involved in the story in some way i think that was incredibly important for me and yeah posting that video was just an act of like it was like the kettle had reached boiling point and the steam was spewing out of the kettle and I just had to release some steam some way and that's what that video was and yeah it was just me telling the truth it was 11 minutes of raw video just me saying what happened and it gained a lot of traction was the response what you expected it to

be yeah well uh well yes and no a lot of it was very lovely and you know people saying yeah you're so brave and this is so amazing and sort of what i was hoping to hear came my way obviously my father reacted incredibly poorly i mean that's no surprise he told me to watch my back when i crossed the street and say it was just ridiculous did he contact you straight away how did he yeah he contacted through another family member he said it through like via you had no relationship with him at this point no i haven't spoken to him in about four years now last time i saw him we had screaming match in uh in the front yard yeah so he still blames you yeah even with it still flies to the philippines wow so he still sees your stepmom and still sees as far as i know yeah

what a continual betrayal from your own father continual denial yeah continual complete disregard for his son's trauma and what he's been through does he realize that he's not the father now i think he i think he knows but again i've had no no conversation with him i've had no conversation with him it's weird to wrap your head around it really is it's like i don't understand it a very specific form of i don't know whether it's narcissism or ignorance or arrogance like it's narcissism it's ego it's denial it's it's all of the above it's evil it's evil yeah yeah and so far your stepmother has never faced repercussions for what she did to you she lives in exile in the philippines yeah uh the first time you encountered a good character

reference was for your good character of a dad yeah can you tell us about that experience you know in the court and hearing how i guess just how you first became aware of what they were yeah so i as you said my stepmother has never faced any formal charges or repercussions in in like a traditional sense of justice like going to a court or anything like that but i remember my mother was subjected to domestic violence at the hands of my father and that resulted in you know it going to court and at sentencing she heard reference after reference be read aloud attesting to his good character and as each reference was read aloud But I could just, you know, the hope drained from her face.

She felt as though her story was nothing compared to the reputation of my father or the system that was assisting him. Because, you know, the justice system, when it was first founded in the UK, was built on the premise of protecting men and their property. And property, women and children were defined as property. and whilst that's not like an outward thing that is spoken in the justice system today, because that's the basis of it, we still feel the repercussions of that in a very real way. So my mother never stood a chance against my father or the system. It's a fascinating thing that it's existed for so long,

this idea that like it doesn't matter if you beat or abuse or whatever you do to your own family, but if you're a nice guy down at the shops or in the church or whatever it is that someone can write a reference for you that can undo abuse allegations or at least lighten a sentence. You know, the fact that this has. It's not even allegations, Laura. It's post-conviction.

Yeah. The fact that this has, I guess, kind of like stood the tyranny of time up until recently, that this is something that we like and that would hold value, that it's like you can go and stand in front of a court and talk about the convictions and talk about what's happened, but we can still read out a reference that comes through to say, but actually we think they're a good guy and that holds weight, it's an unbelievable process.

It's incomprehensible. Harry, can I read this particular part of your book? When I read this initially, it made me stop, push my chair back and have a moment to have a couple breaths and think about what you'd written. You said, and this was in reference to character references, it's more than just offensive, it's fucking dangerous. It tells survivors that their trauma can simply be outweighed by their abuser's reputation, that their truth is negotiable, that the person who harmed them

simply holds more value in the eyes of the law. The thing that really got me about that was that the truth is negotiable because what you also taught me through your book is that particularly with child sex abusers, having a good character is actually a part of the framework that enables them to do what they're doing because no one would trust a child with someone who wasn't a good person. No one would voluntarily let their kid go with someone who wasn't kind and thoughtful and all of these positive things. So not only is them being a good character in opposition to what they are actually like to other people, it's actually something that enables them to do the thing that they're being convicted for. It's a complete misnomer. And essentially,

good character references for convicted child sex offenders, it's essentially giving them a discount on their sentence for the very thing that enabled them to facilitate the abuse. They're essentially getting a discount for the actual thing that allowed them in the position of trust and care to perpetrate that abuse upon the child. It does not make sense whatsoever. And when I first started the campaign, I took that inspiration from what my mother experienced in terms of in a domestic violence context. And because I was speaking out publicly about my story i was curious as to how the notion of good character applied to child sex abuse cases and there was there was a dynamic where it was sort of like a half approach thing where priests and

scout masters and people in outwardly positions of power they weren't allowed to rely on letters of good character these good character references but perpetrators like my stepmother or the neighbor or the grandfather or the best friend they can still argue that good character wasn't used in the commission of the offense when really as we know as you've just articulated it is why is that the case why are certain people exempt from it in what you just described well it was a finding from the royal commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse so that was from 2017 and that was the law that we were trying to rectify to ensure that it goes across all areas of child sexual abuse it also makes you realize why so many children are not believed and

why when you think about it happening and it does often happen within their own families like this is the majority 80 percent of child sex offending happens within a family dynamic and so therefore you know you have a child that comes forward and says this has happened it's an uncle it's a best friend it's someone who's got incredibly close access to the child in your case stepmom it's so easy to not believe the child because it means that you have to undo all of your beliefs and perceptions around the person that you've trusted. And so it's easier to be like, I don't really think that could have happened versus realizing all of the shift and change that has to happen and your inability to trust your judgment of that person. All of that has to be rewritten.

I think that's part of where my father's at as well. I think he just cannot fathom that, Or he saw it, but he doesn't want to fathom the fact that the woman that he's married, he spent Christmases with, he sat across the dinner table with, was capable of sexually abusing his son. But that's also... I think there's an element to that. I mean, you would know that and of your father better than anyone, but I almost think that that is like doing you such a further disservice. Because what he's saying is, oh, but my son is capable. my 13 year old son is capable of a level of deceit that my wife is not capable like it's it's a crazy thing to try and comprehend where your dad has gotten to with his belief systems around this

yeah it really is what has been in writing the book yeah and i mean you've spoken about your story quite a bit from going from sharing it on social media to talking about it to advocating for child sexual assault victims survivors what was it about wanting to put this as a memoir and talking about how you can change your trauma into something that is very purposeful and has become a defining part of your life now why did you want to write this book well it was it was such an opportunity for me to write the book that i wish i had when i first started advocacy and i think pain unfortunately is such a universal experience it's something we all face and purpose is something that we're all trying to find in our lives.

We're all searching for it and I think it's part of the human condition to make meaning out of what we've been through. And yeah, when the opportunity presented itself to write this book, it was purely about, sure, it's part memoir and it speaks to my story, but also it's part practical guide and it gives people the tools and there's exercise in it where you can write, you can rip pages out, There's moments to debrief at the end of each chapter, and it's essentially giving people the tools that I wish I had when I first started advocacy in a public way. It wasn't something that I'd seen out there in books as well, that sort of real practicality and that sort of matter-of-factness of what advocacy really is like.

I hadn't seen anything like that, and it was just burning inside me to put it out there in the world. So I was incredibly excited to write it and to see it come to fruition. And it's a real blast to see it now. About your advocacy, you've been, you know, campaigning for this for a very long time. And you have a friend by the name of Jared. Yes. How did you meet Jared? How did you connect?

How did you start and, I guess, transform the Your Reference Ain't Relevant campaign? Yeah. So Jared was an ambassador for Polish Man, as I was at the time. and he reached out, and he's twice my age. He'd hate me saying that on the podcast, but he is. Don't duck and say it. Poor Jared. I love that in your book is when you were like,

I was a Polish man ambassador alongside Chris Hemsworth, alongside Thor. Like, what the fuck? Yeah, that was pretty insane actually. But, yeah, Jared was there, and he reached out, and he was like, dude, to see like you at 21, 22, speaking out against this, I wish I had that courage at the time. And he was like, I wish I could get on the front foot of it. And we just established a friendship through there. And obviously I had this real sense of responsibility to do something with my pain. I came to the understanding that it wasn't my fault what happened to me, but it is my responsibility to do something with it.

And when Jared and I sort of came together, we had a beer at the pub and I told him about this, what my mother experienced with the good character references. And I found the legislation as to how it's still operating with child sex offenders. And we were just sort of bonded over that and said, let's try this out. Let's try and make a change. And for a bit of context, Jared is also a survivor. He's also a survivor of child sexual abuse. He was sexually abused by his neighbor.

He speaks incredibly eloquently about it as well. And he just understood me. I remember walking into that pub the first time meeting him. We spoke about our trauma and we shared that, but I didn't have to explain it in a way that I would explain it to someone who hasn't experienced transsexual abuse. Like I don't have to preface everything and I didn't have to sort of take, I obviously took care in what I was saying, but I didn't have to like prepare him because he knows the devastation of it inherent.

And it was just such a breath of fresh air to have that connection and to have that sort of, I mean, I didn't have a father. like a loving father but he sort of was that father or older brother sort of figure and we could take on the world together it was very i was incredibly grateful and for that campaign to start start in the pub and now it's gone on to become what it's become is is truly remarkable i think what you just said then is is interesting saying you know i wouldn't have had the courage to be able to talk about this at the age of 21 I think for a lot of people and even potentially for yourself if you hadn't experienced this email that had unraveled everything and ended with you going

and having the help to kind of realize what had happened to you at 21 you still may not have seen it as abuse yeah you still may have seen it as though this protection needed to continue that you still had to keep this secret that you had played some sort of responsible part and i would dare think that there are other people who have experienced maybe not your version of child sexual assault but they're in their early 20s and they haven't processed that this is totally assault yet it's a fantastic point because it's a reality that a lot of people face i know i went to that mental health facility that i was talking about before a sort of an instigator in me wanting to get the help and get on the front foot of it was because I was seeing men specifically

in their 50s and 60s talking about abuse they'd experienced as a child and hadn't necessarily gotten through all that yet. And I went, I just had this moment of realization of, I had this sense of urgency as well. Like if I don't get on the front foot of this, I'm going to spend my entire life trying to heal this. And I don't know where that foresight came from. I can't explain that, but it was there and I'm grateful that it was. Talk me through, I mean, you are now in a beautiful relationship like i said you're having a baby yeah but i can only imagine that's i guess experiencing this abuse for so long in your childhood and also that being your first version of what love is right romantic love is this very warped perception of like this is romantic love

how did that affect your ability to date how did that affect your interpretation of relationships what was that like for you oh it was it was awful it was like it was not something that i was able to navigate at all i mean especially when you sort of have this uh when i got to a point of being public facing about what i've been through as well it was it was an even worse dynamic i'd say in terms of trying to date and figure that out it was just that it was foreign to me i just didn't because what i thought was love as a child it was so ingrained in me that i was an active participant in the wrong thing in an affair i was always apprehensive to engage with love or dating or anything like i just didn't have the healthy sort of parameters to be able to go

through that i think also trusting intentions of people like you know that that them wanting to spend time with you wasn't a form of manipulation like that kind of thing would be so hard to undo yeah there's a real cynicism towards that that i possessed as well and when it finally came to meeting bella she just from the outset you know it's never anyone's job to heal me it's not bella's job to heal me but bella just loved me unconditionally and she just holds up a mirror every single day and says look at how amazing you are like you're so fantastic and to be seen as a whole person and not be seen as an experience that i was subjected to it made all the difference It made any inhibition melt away, any apprehension, sorry, melt away.

And the dynamic that I have with Belle now, there's no language to articulate it in the way that it actually feels because she's just one in a million. She's so special to me. And the fact that we're bringing a beautiful little girl into the world at the end of this year is such a thing of joy and elation. I'm so excited. Can I just ask about the specific, and obviously you can't speak for Bella, But I learned in your book that one in three girls and one in five boys experience sexual abuse.

What do you think were things that she did as a partner that helped heal your relationship with love? You know, what things did she do that someone listening right now who may have been through trauma themselves or their partner has, what can they do to facilitate a really good relationship? I don't know if I have specific steps but I can tell you what Bella does and did and hopefully you know the listeners can regain some you know skills out of that I guess Bella just believed me and just as I said saw me as a whole human being I remember one time like uh how we met was quite funny actually because she kept DMing me modern romance I love it and like just kept going for it And I was like, cause I was in a position of, you know, being this activist. Was this when she was on a big travel trip as well?

Was this? Okay. Yeah. And she was reaching out and I was like, well, is she flirting with me? Like I couldn't gauge it. And I was like, oh, am I allowed to flirt back? I don't know. Is that the wrong thing to do?

Like I was so questioning every thing that I had. Anyway, she was very persistent and we started talking for three months and we're talking every day, FaceTiming and it just grew into this thing. And I said, when are you coming back to Australia? Like, I really want to meet you. And she's like, I'm not planning on coming back. So I said, well, I guess I'll have to come meet you. So I flew to Italy and our first date was three weeks in Italy.

And yeah. Isn't that just like utterly insane, which I love. Yeah, it is pretty insane. Super relatable. I've gone from one extreme to another of like not being able to date at all to just getting on a plane and meeting the love of my life. Yeah. I mean, I'm here for it. I love it.

I love the extremities of it. It makes for a great meet cute. If he wanted to, he would. Okay, we did bypass it and it's very important to everything that you've achieved. But with the advocacy that you've done, with your reference ain't relevant, where I guess, and I mean we know how that has all panned out with your ability

to overturn what has been I guess a system that has gone unchallenged for so long. What does that now look like? Yeah, so the campaign has been successful in four jurisdictions around the country. New South Wales, the ACT, Victoria is set to pass legislation in the middle of this year, and Tasmania is set to do it around the same time in conversations with other jurisdictions as well. Actually, yesterday, at the time of this record, yesterday, the New Zealand Prime Minister went online and said that he is going to abolish good character references for convicted sex offenders not just child sex abuse but all sexual violence cases i didn't get justice in the traditional sense my stepmother didn't go to court but for me

advocacy was in a sense like that was my sense of justice to be able to plant that flag in the ground and say you know what i went through hell but i've used it to do this monumental thing and now it's making a difference for a myriad of other survivors out there in the community who will no longer have to sit in a courtroom and hear their perpetrator lauded as a good bloke i mean just before i came here i was walking past in sydney cbd the downing center which is the court and i remember i got i get messages all the time from other victim survivors reaching out online saying i'm about to go for my sentencing would you join me i would love you there to support me and I've been to a couple I don't go to every single one but when I have the capacity

I'll go on support I remember sitting in that courtroom this is only a year and a half ago and there was the case of Paul Frost and he was a swimming coach who sexually abused 11 children was 43 offenses I was sitting there with the victims and their families and the character references were read aloud he was called a champion of young people god jesus and i remember the gasp from the mother of the victim and the gut-wrenching pain that they sat through it's hard for me it wasn't even my case it was so difficult to hear and when i was walking past the downing center just then and the legislation in new south wales was passed last week i just had a moment to look up and i went that's not going to happen anymore

that's not going to occur it's so massive and the other thing you wrote about that specific case was that the people who provide the good character references they're willing to do it with their whole fucking chest yeah they put their own name and reputations on the line for these perpetrators like and as you've said this is not allegations these are convicted child sex offenders yeah it's just it's so revolutionary what you have done and your book goes into a lot of the process which was absolutely not an easy one you've had many many many difficulties but something that is happening right now that I find particularly interesting is that you know you spoke about this advocacy started in the pub it certainly passes the pub test there is not a single person that

we speak to about this that doesn't go that sounds absolutely fucked it shouldn't be a part of the sentencing but there is not always bipartisan support in parliament for these changes why is that and how has that been such a i guess a break applied to this rolling out across all different states of australia yeah it's interesting new south wales was highly politicized in terms of the legislation being introduced i thought it was an absolute no-brainer i think everyone does everyone does everyone does for there to be a bit of context when we went to the Attorney General in 2023, he referred it to the New South Wales Sentencing Council, which is an independent body made up of 16 members from stakeholders from the courts, police, advocacy

groups, just everyday sort of community representatives as well. They built an evidence base where their report suggested abolishing good character references for all offences. So no convicted offence should have a character reference utilised. And that was based in evidence because they were saying that good character, the actual notion of it, it's quite arbitrary. It doesn't prove anything. If a judge is sentencing a whole person, we can look at prospects of rehabilitation, prior trauma, cultural background, all these other things that we can look at to sentence the whole person. Good character doesn't matter. Can I ask, is the reference submitted after conviction? So the person has been fully convicted and someone has then said, because it would make

sense if it was when charges have been laid but it was pre-conviction and there was still the ambiguity as to whether or not that's not the case isn't that these these perpetrators have been found unequivocally guilty of committing the crime there's a thing of character evidence which happens throughout the trial which is important in the trial because it establishes the facts yeah but once those facts are established and someone has been found guilty there should be no opportunity for a good character reference yeah non-reasonable doubt anyway so when that report from the new south wales census council was put forward the new south wales government and made an announcement in early february that they're going to introduce a bill that will

abolish good character references across the board now the labor government in new south wales doesn't hold the majority of power in the upper house so it passed the lower house unanimously went to the upper house and the greens and the coalition wanted to start playing politics with it they wanted to say are issues of misidentification and all these other things. And those are very real issues, but they require specific targeted reforms. It's got nothing to do with post conviction. So they came back with an amended bill where it just abolished good character for sexual offences, which goes beyond the original ask of the campaign, because we only advocated for child sex offenders. So we still got one up and that passed the house unanimously,

But there's still this cohort of victims of crime, including domestic violence perpetrators, victims of homicide, and other violent crime types where good character references are still permissible. Now, the Attorney General has introduced a second bill. He let the first bill pass without interruption because he didn't want victims of sexual offenses to have to sit through this anymore. And he heard our calls and why it was so important. He didn't want to get in the way of that. But the second bill asks the upper house to include other crime types as well. So we'll see where that goes. I'm not sure.

But the politicization of it all and the point scoring is really disappointing to see, especially from the Greens. Found it really interesting that they took the route that they did. But political point scoring, there's more evidence of that because there are actually 20 bills stuck in the upper house. So they're just trying to get one over the government. There's an election coming up in a year's time and less than a year's time, and it's all point scoring.

And it just, it sucks. I guess the reason I asked the question is because up until reading your book, I had an idea about how hard it was to get things through parliament. I had absolutely, like it wasn't even tip of the iceberg, my understanding, reading about the processes and everything that it takes. I can't imagine being able to do it myself. I think that, you know, the motivation that you have to have for years and years and years, the re-traumatization that you face every single time you share your story, the re-traumatization you face every time someone shares their story with you. And, you know, you go to the courts and all those kinds of things. I really, I think it's quite incredible that you are able to hold so much weight on your shoulders.

And I guess it would be a little cherry on top to finally see these changes and walk past Downing Street. What is it, Downing Street? Sorry, the Downing Court. Downing Centre. Downing Centre. And know that that's because of what you and Jared started. It's just so huge.

Like I get goosebumps thinking about it. Thank you. but we still we still accomplish that with no character references for sexual violence offenses and that's what we set out to do we scored that that's great but there's still this other cohort of victims of crime as i was saying before that we want to encapsulate as well because we know perpetrators of domestic violence utilize aspects of good character to fool everyone around them into thinking that they didn't you know perpetrate the crime it does feel as though But it doesn't diminish the win

No I know It's a bit of a sour note to end on Because of the political point scoring But we won but there's still more to do Well what I was going to say is It feels as though when we say it like this it takes away from everything That you've achieved but you have achieved So much and I was going to say

What is there that's next but it feels As though now knowing that the job is not Done but it does kind of make a sense Of like it's only a matter of time Like it's been so acknowledged That good character references are more than mute now that i feel like it is only a matter of time until it is something that has been put into practice for domestic violence right because anyone who has any sensibility knows

someone could be lovely to work with great in every other aspect of life a school coach even and still beat their children and their wife up like you can be both of those things and just because you can do this outside of the house doesn't negate anything that you have done inside your home and it comes to that point that i was talking about before which is holding two truths at once it's very difficult for people to do that because as you articulated so brilliantly before if you realize that someone in your family is a perpetrator you have to undo all this thinking and your sense of reality that you thought for so many years we're asking people to do that with this and i think what this campaign has done so successfully beyond just

the legislative changes, we've incited a cultural shift, a cultural change in holding up a mirror to society and saying, why, when we are confronted with this incredibly violent harm, why do we reach for language to soften it? And I think that's the question we've posed and it's been so phenomenal to see it come to fruition in a legal sense, but to see the ramifications of the conversations that people are having around the kitchen table or with their mates at the pub, that's where real change happens yeah and harry i think your story in and of itself really reframes how people view child sexual assault and especially in the instances where there's a female perpetrator because i do think that we have over the in the past i think it's been less seen as such recently

but we soften it we don't see it with the same extent and i think that you know the way in which you've spoken about your dad's reaction to what you experienced is echoed through how other people and i guess like society has seen it up until recent years thank you for everything that you have shared and also for everything that you have done in this space keisha you kind of summarized it perfectly the fact that you open yourself up to receiving other people's stories all the time means that you carry the weight of what you've experienced but you're constantly having to experience other people's trauma as well and i can only imagine that that is a incredibly huge responsibility I don't want to say a burden but a responsibility to carry in this as well

thank you so much it definitely is and I think also I know we're going to wrap up soon but I just want to say with the book as I said it was an opportunity to pay for the knowledge and skills that I gained throughout my journey when people think of campaigning and they see you doing podcasts and books coming out and laws passing it seems more glamorous than it really is in real life. It's a daily grind to have to tell your story in that public way, be open to scrutiny. I'm sort of apprehensive in promoting the book and doing things like this, not because I'm not proud of it, but because I don't want anyone out there, any victim survivor, to feel as though they have to do what I do and advocate in order to be deemed worthy.

The beautiful thing about purpose, you can define it however you see fit. As I was saying before, pain is something we all experience. Purpose is something we're all searching for. And it's up to the person to define that purpose, however they see fit. I don't want any victim survivor out there to see my story and feel as though they need to do this grand gesture of changing national conversations because that's not the reality. Real change comes from the interactions that you have with everyday people. You don't have to change a law to be deemed worthy of what you've lived through. You are worthy inherently because of who you are.

You might say, you know what? I'm not going to pass this trauma down to my child, or I'm going to hold space for a conversation with another victim survivor and believe them in that moment. You have just changed the world drastically. And that is a beautiful thing. Change comes from the small everyday moments. That's the message that I want to put out there for victim survivors, especially, but for anyone. Harry, you are a beautiful person. Thank you so much for coming and for sharing and for being a part of the podcast. We're going to link everything about the book in the show notes. I'm sure you can get it at all good bookstores you probably can get it at even the terrible ones that will have

but we will link it all and um we'll also link all your socials and everything as well like truly transform your pain into purpose we will link it and yeah go and get it from all good bookstores it's been such a privilege