Life Uncut - In a World Where We Are So Connected, Why Are We All Feeling Lonely? - Uncut with Dr Ali Walker

Episode Date: November 28, 2023

The World Health Organisation has declared loneliness as a global health priority.  Stats show that young people feel more lonely than any generation before but it seems as though we should be the most connected because of technology. So why are we all feeling lonely when we have a phone in our hand most hours of the day? Joining the podcast today is Dr Ali Walker is a Human Connection Scientist & Mediator with a PhD in group dynamics and the author of click and clash. Ali previously joined the podcast in April for an episode called Is your name wi-fi cause I'm feeling a connection - Talking connection and compatibility with Dr Ali Walker. We chat: How we feel so lonely in a world where we've never been more connected through social media How social media creates fake connection  Solitude v Loneliness How introverts and extroverts experience loneliness differently The long term effects of loneliness How to 'fix' your loneliness You can read Ali's book (and it's one of our favourites) Click or Clash And check out her website here! If you have a question please send it on it to life uncut podcast on Instagram hereJoin us on tiktok Or join the facebook group here Tell your mum, tell your dad, tell your dog, tell your friend and share the love because WE LOVE LOVE! xxSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Life Uncut acknowledges the traditional custodians of country whose lands were never ceded. We pay our respects to their elders past and present. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. This episode was recorded on Darug Walamutta land. Hi guys and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Laura. I'm Brittany. And we have such a special interview and conversation for you guys today. Heading into the Christmas period, this is something that, I mean, we've touched on it

quite a few years now, but it's something that always comes up this time of year, a time of year when you're supposed to feel the most connected, a time of year when you're supposed to prioritize your friendships, prioritize your relationships, prioritize all of the things in life that have and give you meaning. But it's also a time for so many people when you are lacking in those areas of your life where you can feel incredibly lonely. It's almost like it puts a spotlight on your feelings where when the world is telling you that Christmas is such a happy time. And then if you're dealing with these feelings of loneliness or loss or anxiety, that it can really highlight the space

between where you are at and how you're supposed to be feeling. Yeah. And WHO, the World Health Organization, has literally just declared that loneliness is a global health priority. Like this is a pretty big thing and this is a pretty serious issue we also have some stats from the national youth mental health foundation nearly two-thirds of young people say they feel lonely and left out like two-thirds that is a huge amount which is insane when you think that we live in a world which is so incredibly connected like we look at social media we look at the ease of which community and i say community with like you know bunny is quote unquote but like that it should be accessed whereas during this time it's actually something that even though we have accessibility

to it people still feel so incredibly lonely at the same time. You know something I found really interesting though is when you think of loneliness if I asked you Laura like loneliness what age demographic do you think would experience the most loneliness? Well I mean originally I mean before I read the stats because I know the answers to this but I would have attributed it to the elderly I would have attributed loneliness to sitting alone in a nursing home and your family not coming and visiting you anymore and that feeling of looking into the future of your life and seeing that there's not that much left of it. And I thought that that would have been the most lonely time of life. Yeah. And because I feel like as you age, it's highly likely you've lost more people

in your life. And that's, that's just a general blanket statement. But this year it has been found that young Australians aged between 15 and 24 experienced loneliness more than older Australians 55 plus, which really, really surprised me. Yeah. I mean, I don't think that this conversation could have come at a better time, to be honest. And we're talking to Dr. Ali Walker, who we've spoken to on the podcast before we spoke to Ali around connection and that has such an obvious link to loneliness. So the connections that we have in our relationships and to people can either make us feel fulfilled and like we have community around us or can add to this feeling of loneliness. The other thing as well is, and I think we never really speak about

loneliness in this way, but it's this idea that it's not just a feeling. It can have physiological effects on our body. And the research that was done has shown that for people who feel chronic loneliness. It can increase things like an early death, the likelihood of stroke, and it can also increase the risk of dementia by up to 50%, which is just so incredibly alarming. So if you have ever or do at times feel incredibly lonely, even though you may be surrounded by people, just know that you are not alone in those feelings. And I hope that this conversation brings you a little bit of solace and also gives you some tools as to how to manage those feelings. Yeah, we cover a bunch topics with Ali. We're going to get into solitude versus loneliness, how introverts and extroverts

experience loneliness differently, because that's really, really interesting. The long-term effects of loneliness and how you can fix your loneliness. So it's a really important episode for us and we hope you get something out of it too. We had Dr. Ali Walker on the podcast back in, I think it was January. She is a human connection specialist and a mediator with a PhD in group dynamics. She's also the author of Click and Clash, which is what we were speaking about on that episode all around talking about connections and compatibilities. That episode was, is your name Wi-Fi? Because I'm feeling a connection. You can go back and have a listen to it. We'll put all the details in the show notes if you want to go back and have a listen

to that. But we spoke about something on that episode and we touched on it very, very briefly. And that was loneliness, this epidemic of loneliness. We've seen it spoken about so much across social media and in a world where we are supposed to be so connected. How is it that we can be and feel so lonely? Now, we've been speaking about doing this episode for so long, and I think we are all very excited that finally it is happening. Ali, welcome back to Life Uncut. Thank you so much for having me back.

I'm excited. I think this is going to be a conversation that for so many people, we're going to be able to relate to it because loneliness is something that we are all going to feel at different points in time in our lives. But I do think it's so interesting. And like I said earlier, we live in this time where we are so hyper-connected. We have so many networks across social media. There are so many activities that we can do.

Like we couldn't be more connected, but the disconnect also couldn't be further from the truth for a lot of people. What is it? And I guess the difference between being alone in life and having solitude versus feeling lonely. I'm so glad we're having this conversation because I can't think of a more important one in this time because so many people that I speak to are suffering and they're suffering in a way that I don't even think they can identify what's going on. And so it's really important to

be clear about what we're talking about when we refer to loneliness. So loneliness is simply the negative feelings that arise when there is a gap between what we want to be experiencing and what we are experiencing. That's it. That's why it is so general and so all encompassing. So if you are on your own and often when I'm giving workshops or talks on this, and I'll say to people, put your hand up if you enjoy being on your own. And the majority of people in the audience will put their hands up and they're sort of laughing about it. Like I love being on my own. Now that is not loneliness. That is solitude. Now solitude is when there is a positive feeling because there is no gap between what you want to be experiencing and what you are experiencing. So I think everyone

can relate. If you've had a massive day, you've come home and whatever it is that you do to unwind, you might be going for a run, you might hop in the bath, you might go and have a sauna, whatever it is, that's not loneliness because that's exactly what you want to be feeling at that time. Loneliness happens when you have an idea of what you would like to be experiencing, but there is a big gap between that and what you actually are experiencing in your reality. So I speak to people who feel lonely at work because they might be introverted and they're surrounded by people and they're in constant meetings and they just feel like they cannot have a moment to themselves. They are lonely, but they don't necessarily experience it as

loneliness. They might feel overwhelmed or anxious, but actually the feeling is loneliness. so just remember it's the negative feeling that arises from the gap between what you want and what you're getting i think it's interesting when you say this idea of solitude and it's like that we can all enjoy solitude but does there come a point where too much solitude can then be a negative impact like it can then lead to feeling lonely anyway i can answer this yes absolutely sometimes we can cut ourselves off a bit and be like you know i'm happy being on my own i'm happy being on my own. But if you're not nurturing those connections, then when you are lonely, all of a sudden you're like, I'm on my own. Absolutely. There's a point where think of it

like your appetite just for eating. So you might feel full and then feel like, okay, I really don't need to eat for several hours or a few hours, however long it is. But then you get to a point where, okay, I'm hungry again. It's exactly the same with human connection. Human connection is our greatest psychological need. So when we say that it's a need, it's something that we have to fulfill or else we die or else we stop thriving. So psychologically, it's not something that we can opt out of. And this is what I'm so passionate about talking to people about because we need to understand that this is something that we have to work on. So I don't know about you, but I get to the point where if I haven't been working on my physical health, if I haven't

exercised in a couple of days, if I've been eating crap, I will get to a point where I go, okay, enough. I've got to start being serious about this. I've got to invest in this. I've got to eat some good meals. I've got to get out and exercise. I feel that something kicks in in my body because it doesn't feel right. I want people to be in the same way aware of their human connection instinct. So, okay, I've had some time on my own. I'm starting to feel a bit restless. and for everyone, it might be different. Some people, you might feel a little bit sad. You might feel a little bit anxious. You might feel a little bit depressed. Loneliness will show up for people in different ways. So at some point, there'll be a feeling that will kick in that is

your signal to go and connect with other people. Do you think that they can live alongside each other simultaneously and in some form of harmony? And I say that because I have lived alone for many years. I've been on my own for many, many years and I love it. I don't feel lonely, but I was just trying to understand and put myself into your statement at the start that it's the difference between what you want and what you don't have. So I really want to live with my partner, but I'm so happy on my own at the same time. So I actually don't know if I'm lonely. So I would just say that the gap for you is not that wide because both realities would be great so you're happy with your current reality and also you'd be happy living with your partner if you were there feeling

profoundly lonely living on your own and you really wanted to live with your partner then your loneliness would be greater it sounds for you like you have a both and rather than an either or so the gap is just not as as wide and also seems like from I mean we don't know each other that well, but it seems like you get a lot of your connection needs met from other sources. From my dog. Well, you've got each other and you've got your huge community that you connect with. You've got so many other sources of connections. So you're not just there. And this is then leads to the next one, which I talk about diversifying our connections.

Well, I just wanted to make the point for anyone else that was sitting at home thinking, oh, if they're not in a relationship or they live on their own, like that doesn't necessarily, because you want something, you want that relationship, that doesn't necessarily mean you're lonely. Because I think there are a lot of people that battle with that idea of I must be lonely because I'm alone, but it doesn't, they can live in harmony. And I think that's really important for people to understand because it is a really hard concept to understand that how can you not be lonely if you live on your own all the time? How can you not be lonely if you don't have that many friends? But I think it's really important for people to think, okay,

just because I am on my own doesn't necessarily mean I'm at the depths of my despair. No, of course not. And in fact, I've met some people who want to live on their own. That is their preferred state. And this is where my book came from. And I know we've spoken about this in the past, but that's why it's so important to be talking about loneliness through the lens of these two concepts of your frequency and your intensity, because all of us have different connection profiles.

So if you have someone who is introverted and quite reserved and really prefers to be in their own world, living alone would actually be their preferred state. So when we're saying to people what loneliness is, that's why I keep it very general and say it's the gap between what you want and what you have. For some people, what they want is to live alone. So I've met people who and I say, oh, because they come up on my profiles being low frequency, low intensity. And I say, do you live alone? Someone's once said to me, no, and I'm annoyed about it because I've got someone staying with me at the moment. Or someone might say, yes, and my nearest neighbor is 60 k's away and that's how I like it. So I don't think we can put a label on a physical state or a physical

reality and say, that will make you lonely. What we need to do is say, what kind of connector are you and what are your connection needs? Rather than putting labels and saying people must be in a relationship, people must live with others, people must go out to work in an office. Absolutely not. Everybody's different in the same way that we all eat differently. We all have different dietary requirements. I don't think you can put rules on connection. Do you think in today's society, we're prioritizing the wrong types of connections that we're not necessarily leaning into communities or people whose relationships have a deep and meaningful impact on us, but because of like the social media side of things, because of this instant gratification,

because of having like big, but loosely connected networks, we kind of feel like we've got people around us, but can't quite pinpoint why it is that we're not feeling that connection? I think that social media and connecting via digital means is a little bit like sugar is to food. So you can go through your entire day eating food that's not great for you, but feel like you're eating. So yes, I've eaten. Yes, I've eaten, but is it nourishing food? And in the same way, I think of social media like that I think of connecting over digital means like that so absolutely it has a function but it should be a way to enhance existing fundamental connections with deep roots deep sources it shouldn't be in place of that so I was doing a radio segment last

night on love bombing so I was talking about how it's actually really common now for younger people to be love bombed, not only in romantic relationships, but in friendships. And so love bombing is just when someone is overwhelming you initially with that connection and then goes to a period of devaluing and discarding or ghosting you after that, leaving the person feeling, hold on a second, what happened? It's like a whirlwind. And I think that the reason we have the ingredients for love bombing is because you can actually fake connection online. So you can send someone 10 WhatsApp messages in a row or a photo of here I am now. And it's almost like fake intimacy because it hasn't built up over time and it's not based on genuine connection. So I think

a lot of people are thinking, yeah, I've got these friends. I've got these people who really care about me and we share the daily details of our lives, but it's not actually built on time and an authentic conversation and connection and experience together, real experience. So you can absolutely have constant WhatsApps with someone if it is also balanced with that authentic time together and genuine conversation, because research has shown there's just no replacement for in-person. And even this, we're able to see each other's facial expressions. We're able to connect with each other face to face. Even this is more meaningful than texting or sending Snapchats or WhatsApp messages.

So I think it's just about remembering that it can't be a replacement for genuine connection. I think we get into trouble when we look at our friendships that are based primarily on those means of connection and think that they are deep and strong and enduring. What do you think about, I think it's a really common concept for people to say that they feel lonely in a relationship.

They might have been in a relationship for a long time. it might be a marriage, it might be a couple of years, might be a couple of months, but they're like, I have this person that I love, they love me, but I feel really alone and lonely in that relationship. What are some of the reasons people experience that? When you're in a marriage, when you're in a relationship with someone, you are constantly with each other on the basis of frequency and intensity. Frequency is just how much time together, how many conversations. Intensity is what type of connection. Are we playing cards together? Are we sitting watching a show or a sports game or watching TV, low intensity? Or are we talking and making eye

contact and having an intense emotional connection, high intensity? So when people feel lonely in a relationship, it's because there's a gap. It's because you might have a partner who is a low frequency connector, which means you're there going, do you want to go for a weekend away? Do you want to go out for dinner? Do you want to go for breakfast? Do you want to go for a walk? And they're, no, I'm all good. I'm good. I'm good. But I love you, but I don't want to do those things. So you have a frequency mismatch. That can be the first reason you might feel lonely. So someone's there thinking, hold on, we're meant to love each other. And you don't even want to go for breakfast with me. You don't even want to go out for dinner with me on a Saturday night.

And so you've just got different preferences when it comes to how much connection together. My boyfriend in first year uni, classic frequency mismatch. So he was low frequency, I'm high frequency. And he would kind of get in touch with me every couple of days. And when you're a uni it's nothing else to do i'd look now and think what did i do with my time i was working and i was studying but in terms of free time i wanted to see him and talk to him every day i didn't necessarily have to see him every day but uh most of my friends had boyfriends that they saw a lot and he was low frequency and i would sort of say to him it's okay you know we don't have to be together and i give him an out like if you don't if you're not into me and and he would

genuinely say no I really want to be with you I really and but then how do you ask that next question but why don't you ring me every day you know and that's just a frequency of incompatibility in frequency now that's the first reason you can feel lonely I felt really lonely in that relationship second reason you can feel lonely is an intensity mismatch or gap so you have someone who is a low intent now typically my research shows men tend to be low intensity women tend to be high intensity, no rocket science there, but I do actually have the data to show that that is the case. Doesn't mean that men can't be high intensity, women can't be low intensity. Obviously we have exceptions. So if you have two people in a relationship and one is low intensity,

they will want to connect using ways of being together that don't necessarily involve talking. So imagine you've been waiting all week to see this person and you're a high intensity connector All you want to do is talk to them and understand them and feel like you've had a really deep and meaningful connection through conversation. And this person says, do you want to go to a movie or do you want to go and see a concert or do you want to go to the gym? Now, if you're a high intensity connector, you might then feel lonely and think, well, I've been waiting to see you. All I want to do is talk to you and you want to go to the gym or you want to go to see an NRL game, what are you talking about? Do you even want to spend time

with me? And that is simply an intensity gap because the high intensity person is saying, I want to connect with you through talking. I want to go out for dinner. I want to go out for drinks. I want to have a high intensity emotional experience with you where I can let my guard down, share my feelings, go into full disclosure, because that's what love looks like for that person whereas love for the other person it's slower it's more about actions than words and so this is where when people say to me that they feel lonely in a relationship typically then the next line will be he doesn't talk to me or she makes me feel like i'm not good enough for her or nothing i do is good enough and then also that can be reversed absolutely depending on the personality

of the partners and so then it's all about getting the other person to understand this is not personal to you. It's not as though this person, so let's go back to my boyfriend in uni. It's not as though if he was with another girl, he'd be calling her every day. That's his preference for, oh, actually I hope not. We'll never know. We'll never know. But knowing him now, reflecting on that as I can now from my perspective, that's him. That's just his frequency preference. And that's just how he has friendships and relationships so the hardest part is not taking it personally and i remember i think i may have mentioned this in the last interview we talked about my husband and i used to go out for dinner and it would almost feel awkward and then we actually actually i had to go

but we're great we are you know nine out of ten compatible eight out of ten compatible why is it so weird to sit at a table and look at each other when we work so well in so many other ways and so then we started going on those day dates and we started going for walks and we started doing other things we started going for an ocean walk and and swim and then we'd go and have a quick dinner afterwards but the focus wasn't on that intense eye contact deep talking connection because that for him is not his preferred mode so yeah if you're lonely in a relationship it doesn't mean you shouldn't be together it's the one thing i want to say and it's just about finding out your preferences for connection and then just experimenting with what works for both of you.

Ali, do you think that there's times in life, like whether it's milestones or situations that happen to people that obviously impact your happiness? You know, we say that in relationships, it could be this mismatch in the frequency of which you're showing up or how you like to have connection, but can it not also be circumstantial? Like the things that happen to you in your life obviously make you feel more lonely. Of course. And in fact, my research has shown that when people have experienced some kind of shock or tragedy or some kind of grief in their life, it absolutely affects the way that they connect. So I interviewed a woman who was going through breast cancer treatment and she reported that her frequency stayed the same, but her intensity went

down. So she still wanted to be around people as much. She didn't want to talk because she had enough going on in her head. So other people who I've worked with, I've worked with injured workers who might've had a psychological injury at work or a physical injury. So they've lost their social identity. They've lost their ability to work. They've totally changed their way that they live their life. And absolutely generally what will happen is people's frequency. So how much connection they want will go down. What type of effect does loneliness in general have on us? Like, I mean, we all know it emotionally affects us and makes us feel sad, but what are the long-term impacts and why is it something that we need to address? It's hard to keep this answer upbeat because of

the impact that it does have on us. So I'll start with some basic things. Okay. So the mental health impact. So it's, it's more likely if you're profoundly lonely, I'm talking about chronic loneliness because sometimes people come up to me and say, so should I get out more? How often should I be going out? And I started to panic. This is people who are chronically lonely, who feel like they have no power to do anything about it. What it can do is it can make us more susceptible to depression, anxiety, mental health repercussions. Older people are more likely to age faster, so they're more likely to develop dementia, Alzheimer's, or just go into decline in physical and mental ways it has mental health impacts but it also is worse for us than smoking

obesity and substance abuse we need to sort of remember i go back to it being our greatest psychological need it's a need meaning that if it is not met all sorts of things will start to happen in terms of decline so our physical health time spent asleep when you go to bed you're not asleep in your bed as long you're more likely to be up through the night so your sleep is affected your mindset is affected your physical health is affected your appetite is affected you're more likely to engage in anti-social behaviors including addictions and then in a sort of a feedback loop you're less likely to seek out human connection because you don't feel so good on the flip side when we get human connection right it helps us heal faster it helps us learn

faster and we have 50% less risk of dying early because of strong connections. Ali, can you just explain a little bit further that loneliness is actually worse for your mental health than things like addiction and smoking and drug use? What do you mean by that? What is it actually doing to our body? It sends us into decline faster. So it has all sorts of physical and mental health impacts. Say you're smoking cigarettes or vaping and you have strong relationships with friends and family. The impact of not smoking but being chronically lonely is worse for that person. If you're someone who smokes five cigarettes a day, loneliness is the equivalent of smoking 20 cigarettes a day. So that's what I mean. It's not that smoking is

fine for you if you have strong relationships or that having an addiction or having a substance abuse problem is fine as long as you're not lonely. That's not what I mean at all. It's almost like it's the equivalent of having one of those addictions or being obese. And I guess also the reality is, is that for people who are lonely and you touched on it, that you then seek out those behaviors anyway. I mean, there's ways in which you can find connection, which is healthy ways in terms of like family, friends, building that network around you, or people who are feeling very lonely, who haven't been able to seek out those connections can seek them out in unhealthy ways as well. I guess if somebody is in that feeling,

it must be so hard to even know where to start. Because I mean, one of the biggest questions we get, which comes in in our Ask Uncuts every week is like, how do I make friends as an adult? Because there's so many people, I think as when you're young, making friends, expanding those connections, it's an easier process. And as we get older, people's friendship circles get tighter, making new friends building those connections get harder and so if someone is experiencing that how do they then break into it and how do they then start to fix the problem the antidote to loneliness is belonging and connection everyone gets on board with that great i'd love to belong that sounds that sounds wonderful but no one talks about how to do it so the four-step process

is actually to start with yourself. Natural belonging or time with self is the key to actually having strong relationships. However, if you're someone who is in that state where you're feeling profoundly lonely, then more time to yourself is probably not the answer. So what I would suggest to people is rather than going out

with the purpose of making friends, I would suggest to people, and I remember talking to a lady from the country who was really positive and really happy, but moved to the city. And she said, I came from this small town where I knew everyone and felt really strong in my connections to living in the city. And she said, I was so lonely. And then I just thought, you know what? I'm going to do the same thing every day. I'm going to go to the same person in that same checkout counter at the local grocery shop. I'm going to go to the same cafe every day around the same time. I'm going to go to the same class at the gym. I'm going to go.

And as you can imagine, over time, she started just developing those incidental connections. And so I would call that collective belonging. So it's just connections out in the world that make you feel recognized and seen. So I would say to someone, if you're feeling lonely, start by doing the same things every day. Start with a routine. And initially, that routine may not feel like it's getting you anywhere. You might go three times in a row to the same class, the same yoga class or the same gym

class. so what? But maybe on the fourth time, you have a little chat with someone who also, oh, I've seen you here a couple of times. Oh, are you from around here? And then maybe the next week, do you want to go and get a coffee or do you do any other classes here? Now, routine is something that builds up relationships. Now, think of a time when it was really easy to make friends. You were in preschool and school. Now, why was it so easy to make friends? Because you had the same routine. You did the same thing every day. So you knew that you could invest in the people around you because you knew they'd be there tomorrow. And that's in your mind what made it

worth making that connection. The problem now is that everyone is on so many different timelines and routines that it's very difficult to think, well, who am I going to invest in? Because I don't know if you're going to be here tomorrow. I don't know if I can rely on you for me to invest in this connection. So what I would say to people is start by working out what are the things that bring you joy and then go and seek them out in the world. So if you love doing yoga, go and find a great yoga studio that brings you joy to be there. If you love swimming, go and find an ocean swimming club that you can join. If you love art, go and find an art class that you can join. Like all of these things seem like they are massive leaps, but I know people who are single and who have

really thriving social lives because they are based on this routine, day-to-day things that you like to do. So if you were giving advice to a child about how to make friends at school, you'd probably say something along the lines of, you just do the things that you like to do, and then you'll find other people who you share that in common. Now that is still the case even for adults. What I would also say is we absolutely care about being vulnerable. So it shifts. You know when we're younger I think we get more embarrassed because we put ourselves out there more we're less worried about taking those emotional risks you get older you get a bit safer and it's that whole once bitten twice shy and we just start going oh actually easier not to send

that text easier not to ask that person if they want to have coffee and absolutely I would say you really need to still keep trying and still realize that these things take effort and they take work. I made a really, really good friend last year as an adult and it was delightful. And she is someone who would say, Hey, I'm going to spin class today. Do you want to come? Hey, I'm doing this. Do you want to? And she would just ask me to things. It was as basic as that. And even if I couldn't make it, I would then come back and say, can't do this morning, but Hey, would you like to do this together? Yeah. I think it's just about remembering that we've got to still make an effort, like as though you're dating. Have this dating mindset, except for friends.

Having friends is so important. And especially there's been studies on the importance of friendship in terms of being able to weather the transitions of life. So particularly for women, it was the Harvard Nurses Study that was done. And they found that women with a strong group of friends or women with friends they could count on throughout life, they were healthier, they were happier, they were much able to withstand transitions. So I just want to say to people, you've got to go after these things with as much vigor as we go after, say, making money, because it's so important. And I think that that is such unique advice because we have spoken so much around like, well, if you want to make friends, like go put yourself out there, go do

your hobbies, go do this, blah, blah, blah. And I think that that is quite obvious. You know, you can make friends by doing things that you like and go do team sports and all that sort of stuff. But I don't think we'd ever really consider this idea of repetition. And I think that that's potentially where friendships have let us down in that, you know, you might be putting yourself out there and doing all the same things, but if you don't have the security and knowing that that person's going to be there tomorrow, then what is the incentive to invest in that person? I do think the other part of this is as we get older, our friendship groups, the time that we have to invest in our friends is smaller. So often we start to close those

circles off a little bit because we pick and choose who we want to give our time to. And that happens as we age as well. Totally. And I think it's all about the energy drains or the energy gains. So I think they're the decisions that we're making. Who are the people around me that give me energy that make me feel uplifted versus who are the people that drain my energy? And over time, we definitely do start to make those choices. But absolutely, if you consider a romantic relationship, we all have this internalized view of that conveyor belt, for better or for worse, so to speak. But you understand that a relationship that's romantic should sort of follow a general pattern. You know, you might start off and it's initially you might have dinners or catch up and

then eventually you go on and it just grows to something more, more, more. You might move in, you might do this, you might do that, you might have children. And so we understand that conveyor belt, but I think the friendship conveyor belt is a little less clear. But what people need to realize is that absolutely the routine and the predictability and the commitment. So, and it has to come from both sides. You both have to commit to wanting to invest in that friendship. And I don't think enough people, because it's easy to let friendships go. It's just easier. If you think about, if you have children, you have a job and you have a partner, it's not that you would necessarily say, yeah, I don't, my friendships. In fact, they're probably the most rewarding parts,

but they're not as immediate in terms of their demands. So I think they are things that often fall by the wayside. So people really need to remember that it's just like investing in your physical health. Do you think as well, we over-prioritize the importance of romantic relationships and deprioritize how fundamental friendship is in terms of our long-term happiness and our long-term feelings of not being lonely? Absolutely. And in my book, I talk about the eight different sources of connection. So I call it the connection wheel and your romantic partner is one of those. So if you think about the eight sources of connections as like a pizza, and so it's your connection pizza with eight slices your romantic relationship is one slice

of that pizza but we've been told that it's the whole pizza or seven slices we've been told it's the reverse and so we invest so much in that romantic relationship and we have the rituals with that person and we want them to know that we're committed but in fact a healthy life is much more diversified. Absolutely. You're going to have to prioritize a romantic partner in certain ways that you may not prioritize anyone else, but it doesn't mean that you don't have sources. So now knowing this stuff, I never, I didn't research this stuff until a few years ago. Now that I know it, I will look at my calendar and I will think of the different sources of connection. So we're talking about friendships here, but I think the greatest source of loneliness is the relationship

that we all have with ourselves. So I think it's that most people are on their own and feel a profound sense of, I don't want to label it because for everyone it's different, but different people will say to me that on their own they feel anxious, on their own they feel depressed, on their own they feel sad, despair, a lack of hope, just confusion, I don't know what to do. I think my main message would be if you can figure out a way to feel happy on your own, that's the first step that you have nailed. And this is something that I've really struggled with. I'm one of five children. So I was never on my own growing up. It was just, it was not something that, so I've had to work on that. And that is still something that I have to consciously say to

myself, okay, by the end of today, how do I want to feel? What are the things that I would love to have done on a Sunday or on a Monday? I'll even do that at work. What are the, how would I love to feel going off to sleep tonight? And what would I love to have accomplished? And I think if we start asking those questions, the way we spend our time alone or with others is very different because what we tend to do is we think we're on our own. We're not intentional about it. We're not conscious about it. And then we might go on social media and we might say, oh, that person just went paddle boarding at the beach. I'm a loser. Why don't I do things like that? Oh, they've gone for an ocean swim. Oh, they're out at brunch. Oh my gosh. And then we just go into

this spiral which then piles on and makes the time alone even worse or even harder so what i'd love for people to do it's not just about like find hobbies whenever anyone says that i don't think i have any hobbies but then with someone if someone was to say but what do you like to do i'd go oh well that and that and that but i would never think of them as a list of hobbies but if you can stop that spiral of comparison of how you think your life or your day or your weekend should look and start to actually sit down, get pen and paper, go old school. What are the things I love to do? And I actually went through this whole process a few years ago and I made a list. I have a list on my phone of things that I love to do. So whenever I start to

go in a spiral, if I am on my own, I'll consult the list and actually go, oh, oh yeah, actually I do. There are things that I really do love to do. And once you get okay with that time on your own, people pick up on that. People pick up that you're bouncing on this vibe where you're okay on your own, you're okay in a group and you're okay one-on-one. And what's really interesting as well in my research, 5,000 people have researched, 60% of people say that their preferred mode of connection is in a group of three to five. It's this golden number. So again, if that's where psychological safety is, maybe think about that. Maybe think about organizing some things with three to five people because a lot of people find time alone very confronting. A lot of people find

one-on-one very confronting, but in a small group, that seems to be the golden number for psychological safety. Ali, can you tell us as well, you mentioned that there's eight pieces of the pie. What are the full eight pieces? So we've got self, time with self, time in nature, so connection to land. This is something that I think all of us need to think more about. So sense of place so that's the second one and then we have family of origin so if you have people who were parents your brothers and sisters that kind of thing your current family so that could be your partner your children whatever family you have now friends community and then your so this is your community as in I go to my son's rugby and see the people on the sidelines or I go I'm at

the school and I'm you know involved in the school in that way and then what I call collective belonging or out in the world. So people I might see at the dog park, I don't know their name, but we see each other every morning. Hi, how are you going? And just, it's that kind of local identity, national identity. Collective belonging is really potent when we go overseas and you might see another Australian, or you might see another person from your country and you just have this moment of, oh, you feel connected to that person. That's collective belonging. It's, we are connected because of our shared circumstance so they're the eight sources and each of them are equally important and so what COVID did is it actually removed the social group and the community and

the collective belonging so we lost that top layer of connections and I think that's why so many people couldn't really name what was wrong because they might have been like well what you know I can go for a walk I'm here I'm I can see people in my local in my street or in my house I'm still Zooming people every day. I'm on FaceTime. I'm on Instagram. Yeah. Why is it weird that I can't just sit in a cafe and sort of see the people that I would normally see in my day to day? So I think that's a shock to people that all eight of those connection sources are equally important. So yesterday, this is an example, I took myself for a walk up to the local shopping center and I just wanted to get my toenails done. Too much detail, sorry. But I just thought I'll walk there.

That would be too much detail. Put them on the screen. no nothing out of the ordinary just your standard pedicure anyway but there were people that I saw on the way on that walk there was this lovely older lady and she she sort of stopped at the top of these stairs so just catching my breath and I just stopped and had a chat with her that is collective belonging and people don't realize that those sorts of incidental connections are so key to our health and well-being and I think what happens is a lot of people like let's do a typical day in the life for someone and this is what people don't realize is a lot of younger people suffer from loneliness more so than any other demographic so 18 to 30 is the highest

experience of loneliness so if you imagine a day in the life of someone so they don't know anything about loneliness they don't even know how to identify it in themselves they might wake up they might have been out the night before not feeling great in the morning so they wake up consult their phone that's their first source of connection and they start saying you know they fall into that comparison spiral on social media oh this person's doing this this person's doing this. And then they just feel a bit like they're in despair. I want to say to that person, if you go through your, I whittle it down to four stages of belonging. So we start off with natural belonging. Okay. So I've got to work on my, my intention for today. How do I want to feel the

end of today? Oh, well, I want to feel, even if it feels unreal or unrealistic, I would love to feel happy. And I'd love to feel like I've exercised and I'd love to feel like I've eaten well. And I'd love to. Anyway, so set an intention. Then the second one is belonging with one other person. So belonging in a meaningful connection. Who is a person that you might be able to send a text to or make a phone call to? Could be your mom, your dad, your brother, your sister, your friend, anyone that you care about, your auntie, anyone in your circle. So then you have the next one is group connection. The next one is collective belonging. You might not get through all four of those in one given day, but all of those are equally important. So now let's shift back to this

person who's lying down on their phone. Oh, hold on. This isn't making me feel good. I'm actually feeling lonely scrolling through social media. I'm going to put my phone down. How I want to feel today is I actually want to feel really vital. Actually, I might go and go for a swim somewhere. Actually, I might go and do a class somewhere. Actually, I might go and get my nails done. Actually, I might go and see if I can catch up with a friend. I know that they've just had a baby and they might be feeling lonely. Do you see how once you shift out of the comparison spiral into intentionality, you start having thoughts that had not occurred to you previously. You start having insights. You start thinking of others. You start realizing actually common

humanity. We're all in this together. Everyone's struggling. Everyone struggles with this stuff because we no longer live in a village of 200 people where I walk out of my door and I know everyone's name and that's the extent of my community. I also think it's interesting that you say it's for people 18 to 30. And I would say that the twenties in terms of when I unpack my own life were the hardest years of knowing who I was. And it was this still trying to figure out what I wanted in life, who I wanted to be in life, trying to find someone to be with. Like it's a real period for so many people of longing to fit in and figuring out who you actually are, which I totally think contributes to that. So there's no surprise to me that that is the age of which

people feel it the most overall. But I also would love to know, do you think that people are more lonely now or just that we're talking about it more now, just that we have words for what people are experiencing? No, I think people are more lonely now. And I think it's because the world has changed so much that people are really unclear on social roles. So it used to be that if you were born, let's say a hundred years ago, your life was pretty much mapped out from birth. So you could say, this is what will happen. I will be married at some point. All of my friends will go through the exact same thing. I will probably have children. I'm talking about the three of us, and so it was all mapped out for us. Now that caused it's only loneliness. I'm not saying that

was a perfect condition. I'm not in any way saying that was an ideal state, but there was something comforting in that there was relief in that even in our mother's generation or the one above if they were at home with children you could probably bet that there was someone on that street also at home with children now if you have a baby there's no guarantee that there's anyone on your street who is at home with the baby the baby may be with a nanny the baby may be in daycare the baby may be who knows everyone's life similar to what i was saying before about the routine so if you think about going from school to going to out into the world in terms of what happens to our routines the exact same thing has now happened with social roles so all of the decline of

religion the move from regional and rural communities to urban communities the increase in office work and also working from home the nuclear family is no longer all of these so We've changed more in the last 50 years than sort of for hundreds of years before it. So I think people are lonely because they're confused, existentially confused. Like what on earth am I supposed to be doing with my life? A woman now is should I have children at all versus someone

who might say, well, I know I want to have children but how many? There's so many options and the grass is always greener. So now we can sit at home and be like, well, maybe I should have been doing that. Maybe I can still do that. Maybe I don't have to stay at home with my baby because no other mother on the street is staying at home with their baby. Everyone else is going to work and getting a nanny and putting their kids in school. And there's this constant snowball effect of never being comfortable in what you have

and never being content in what you have and always wanting more. And I think that indirectly circles back to that feeling of loneliness. I totally agree. it's almost like loneliness is the inevitable conclusion of a world where we are conditioned to never be content with the moment that we're in and I think this is everybody's struggle and if we all can acknowledge that we're all going through that struggle that am I on the right track am I doing what I should be doing is there a better option oh they seem to be doing something great should I be doing that as well I think we need to get rid of that existential

angst about what we're supposed to be doing and get back to our values. So I would just love, I mean, if I could jump into the home or that sounds going to sound a bit creepy, but every single person listening, I would love to be able to sit with them and say, okay, let's figure out your values. What matters to you most deeply when you, when you pull away all of the dressing on top, you know, all of the noise, take away all the noise. What do you deeply care about? Let's get to the end of your life and look back. What is going to make you most proud? What is going to make you most gratified? What's going to be most meaningful for you? That's a good place to start to figure out what loneliness is going to be for that person because it's different for

everyone. And so I think these are the conversations that we need to start having rather than what are they doing? That's what we're asking. What's this other person doing? Because maybe that's what I should be doing? No. We need to start by saying, what do I deeply value and what is going to make me most proud? Because your answer is going to be different to somebody else's answer. And the most powerful people on the planet are the people who know what they want and have the courage to go after it. Ali, thank you so much for sharing. And also, we enjoyed the conversation we had around connection so much earlier this year. And I know we touched on it then around loneliness and how this is such a part of the topic that's

expanded from what you have spoken about in Click and Clash. And we so appreciate you sharing your wisdom. Your pizza. Your pizza with us. Thank you for giving us a slice and making us feel like we belong. And also, you know, at the end of the day, I think one of the big driving forces around us creating Life Uncut was the incredible community that we have been able to build off the back of it. And like I said earlier, one of the big questions that we get week in, week out is around friendship and how can we make more friends and how can we feel like we have a community. And so I think it's these kinds of conversations that really help to drive people in the right direction and give them the tools to do that. Yeah. And to anyone that's listening now to this

episode on loneliness, maybe you've come here and you're not a listener of Life Uncut. Maybe you are a listener of Life Uncut, but I cannot stress enough, join our Life Uncut discussion group because the feedback that we get from that is a sense of belonging, is the community. It circles back to what you spoke about before, Ali, where we want to feel like we're a part of something and the number of people that have come in to Life Uncut and that discussion group alone and left with so many friends and so many connections is the best part of the job. So if this is you and you have been brought to this episode for whatever reason and you're not a part of that Life Uncut discussion group community please like that is like the number one step i feel like to go and

make friends as an adult and to feel that connection and that sense of community and belonging yeah you've genuinely created collective belonging for people yay thank you so much ali thank you We'll be right back.