Life Uncut - Incarceration Nation with Carly Stanley

Episode Date: August 30, 2021

Welcome to your Tuesday Lifers!Today on the podcast we are diving into the history of racial injustice and inequality that so many Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples face every day in Australia.We were lucky enough to be joined by Carly Stanley, the CEO and co founder of Deadly connections and Justice services limited, a proud Wiradjuri woman.Carly featured on the NITV documentary titled "Incarceration Nation."In this chat we speak to Carly about how her husband's life turned around after his experiences from juvenile detention & adult incarceration, to running an organisation that aims at healing First Nations people that have been impacted by the child protection and/or justice systems. We talk about why so many Indigenous children are being locked up and how we need structural change and better solutions for these children. Today's episode is not a light one, and we would like to add a warning that issues of violence, death and racism are addressed in this episode. If you would like to check out the wonderful work that Carly does with Deadly Connections, you can do so here: https://deadlyconnections.org.au/If you would like to view the documentary, Incarceration Nation can be found here: https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video/1930938947662/incarceration-nationThe issues discussed in today's episode are heartbreaking and raw, but they are conversations that we think every Australian needs to have. Please share this episode with someone that you love.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hi guys and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Laura and I'm joined by Britt. It's on the other side. I'm on the other side of the world. And yes, I am Brittany. Thank you for introducing me, Laura. You've never done that before. I don't really know what to do with it. Okay. Well, last episode, you made a big song and dance about how I never do anything different. So I thought I'd try something different and now you're really thrown. So which one is it going to be, babe? Which one? Maybe try something different, but give me the heads up. You're going to try something different. Be just like, bear with me, Britt. I'm going to try something. No, that's cool. I'm Brittany. This is Laura. This is my co-host, Laura. This is Tuesday's episode. This

is our big, meaty, and in Laura's words, very, very, very special episode. Well, I was going to try and avoid saying that it's a special episode, but the truth is it really is a special episode today. But before we get into the episode, I just want to make you all aware. I know a great number of you have been listening to the Batch Uncut Recaps, and this is our home run, guys. We are down to finale week this week and I'm feeling good in my loins I can't wait okay whoa whoa whoa that's too much information Britt hasn't watched a single episode so we can't even we can't even talk to her about it she doesn't care she's left us no it's not look I will always care about the bachelor it was like my foundation like I'm better than that now screw your bachelor I don't need you

bachelor no I do please I'll need you I have been following along social media I feel like there are so many I mean I get the recaps from you guys and I get so many social media recaps I feel like I have covered all bases I feel like I know who's gonna win which I obviously don't I feel like I know all the tumultuous situations that have happened and I don't want anyone to think that I've given up on my bachelor family because I absolutely have not well like we have been saying this entire time Matt and I have no more insight other than our smarty senses as to who's gonna win he's been saying Jay and I am just so ready for my girl Holly to bring it on down to the winning town I don't even know where I was going with that but she's gonna get it she's gonna make

a home run she's gonna get a man and I can't wait for Thursday nights but anyway we've got a few things to cover off before we get to Bachelor. What's been happening in your life this week Laura surely you have some exciting updates for me? Oh yeah look we're heading into week what never-ending infinity of lockdown in Sydney I had some pretty disappointing news actually which if you are one of my very close friends who listens to this podcast and you've been invited to my wedding I'm sorry that I'm telling the podcast world before I sent you an email to let you know I'm like 99.9% sure that Matt and I are gonna have to postpone our wedding oh yeah Britt's finding out now for the first time I really am this is how it happens this is how I got my wedding

invitation as well nothing's changed it's literally how I get all my information from Laura I'm like okay cool so we were holding you know waiting with bated breath to see if you had to postpone the wedding or not and it looks like you have to does it well also the thing is is if we didn't postpone there'd be a very good chance that you wouldn't be able to come like at the moment and I don't think you guys are even aware of this but like Brit physically can't come home like there's no flights at the moment for Brit to get back she was actually supposed to be arriving back in the country pretty much this week and then going into two weeks quarantine but we've been spending like the last gosh like two months trying to figure out a way to get her home and

unfortunately for the next unforeseeable future this is just the situation that we're in and we're going to keep on doing these zoom recordings but yeah a big thing now is with Matt like a big part of his family his mom and all his brothers they all live in Brisbane and so we didn't want to have a wedding or we don't want to go ahead with a wedding unless it's the sort of wedding that we want to have you know and it is really disappointing but I kind of I mean I feel like so many people have experienced their own COVID hardships and I know that there are so many people who listen to this podcast who have had to postpone their weddings over the past year and yeah I just I mean it freaking sucks is what it does but like it's just a part of the modern world that we live

unfortunately do you think that you will reschedule a date or is it just not worth it for now is it just like an indefinite pushback and you'll see what happens in the new year I don't know I feel like the problem is is that because everybody's in the same boat and everyone's weddings are getting postponed it's a situation where you almost have to try and figure out a date quickly because all the dates next year and then the year after are getting booked out but you know one thing I think that we are lucky for and I guess this is the the thing that I've been thinking about which has made me less sad about the whole fact that we have to push the wedding out is that I know a lot of people when they get married they're getting married because they think to themselves okay well

once we're married we're going to start our life we're going to have our kids we're going to you know do all the big life milestones and for us we've kind of already done that like we had the kids we did everything in reverse so I know that we just we just want to have a big old massive party and so until we can have a party where everyone can dance everyone can embrace each other no one has to wear a mask yeah until that can happen I think we're just gonna have to put on hold so like I said if you're someone who's invited to my wedding I promise you'll get an email with the real update soon okay well that's also great because this would have been me also RSVPing to you saying I probably can't come now even if you were holding it so I'm glad we swapped

this information on on air could you imagine though could you imagine if I had a wedding and you didn't come like what well I actually from what's happening at the moment I don't think I know I know I wouldn't have been I know that the flights there are no flights for the next like eight weeks. It's insane. There's nothing. I'd have to swim back. So I actually would not have made your wedding. So it's probably for the best, Laura. Thank you. I only postponed it because of you. I actually have something I want to ask you whilst we're on the topic of weddings. This is something that I don't know if you have seen, but it's circulating online at the moment. Now, there was a couple in America that had a wedding. They put out all their RSVPs. Everyone said they

were coming they put out one more like last call out this is a hundred percent the last time are you sure you're coming to our wedding everyone ticked yes they had the wedding on the day of the wedding their cousin who had children the children got sick now on the wedding invitation it was strictly no children so the children got sick the babysitter couldn't look after the kids anymore I mean you're also not going to bring sick kids to a wedding anyway so the babysitter can't come the kids are sick the parents physically can't go they're like we doesn't we can't go so they don't go one month later they receive in the mail an invoice and the invoice was from the couple that got married and it was a legitimate business invoice and it had the topic wedding no

show pay for meal yeah and the way yeah and the invoice was for 250 dollars they were invoicing them they said you RSVP that you're coming you failed to show your meal per head cost $250 these are our bank details please also fill out the reason why you did not attend. Now this has gone bonkers online and I wanted to know what your thoughts were on this because when I first I mean like I actually don't know how I feel I know deep down how I feel but when I first read it and saw the invoice I was like how could you send that how could you get married and then start to bill people for your wedding and then I had a little part of me that was like well fuck it's $250 a head someone said they were coming so you paid for the meal then they didn't come I was like that's

pretty shitty and now I'm a bit of a fence sitter I still think that you can't ask for the money but I was a bit like I don't know I want to know what the world thinks good I think this is good I think we should be doing this more look I have a question did the person just do a no-show or like they obviously didn't call or send a message to the couple who was getting married and say hey my kids are sick we're not coming like that it seems like a very fatal part of the conversation is missing here that's a good question I actually don't I'm going to assume I don't know I'm going to assume because surely they wouldn't have I'm going to assume at least a text message went out being like Bobby and Jane are sick we're not going to make it today okay look if it's sick kids and

you have let the couple know then I think it's wildly outrageous that you're asking them to pay for it but if there is a no if they're just a no-show and there's no explanation and you're kind of okay with burning your ties with old uncle bob and auntie kathy fucking go for gold i am all for this weddings are expensive and i also think like why is it that weddings are of a different caliber like if it was my birthday for example and i had said like hey guys it's 60 ahead can you please rsvp and make sure that you're coming and then four of my friends just didn't show up and I had to pay for their $60 a head and they were no shows,

I would 100% send them a text and be like, hey, you owe me 60 bucks. Like you said you were coming and I just had to pay $240 because you didn't come to my birthday. Like that's not cool. Are we friends? Like would you still do that

if they were supposed to come to dinner and one of their little toddlers got horrifically sick and she had to take them to a hospital? Would you still say no? No, of course not. But also I feel like if they just didn't tell me and I didn't know the answer or the reasoning then my reaction to it because like context is important right I think that this is the take-home message context in every situation is important

and without having any context you just think your auntie and your uncle ghosted you you'd be pretty fucking mad if you don't have context and punctuation and things like that my uncle Jack doff a horse turns into my uncle Jack doff a horse do you get that saying my uncle jacked off a horse my uncle jack off the horse anyway that was just something that i remembered from like my childhood sorry continue so i have a story you can tell me whether i'm a bad person i kind of was a no-show to a wedding which i think is the fucking rudest thing you can ever do so do not like you didn't tell them guys wait for it this was not intentional however it caused a huge riff in our friendship maybe i was the asshole and i

need you guys to tell me if I'm the asshole okay so a girlfriend who I had been friends with for a couple of years we were more like acquaintance friends she was the sort of friend who I'd go out partying with but she was definitely not the sort of friend that we would we would never catch up for coffee but we would we would party together I would see her on a Saturday night maybe once every few months and then I went a couple of years without seeing her you know my life changed I met Matt we didn't really connect for ages and then I ran into her the new years just after Matt and I got together so we'd only been together for a few months and I ran into her at the news party had a great night like she's such a great girl and I love her as a person and she texted me the

next day and said hey do you want to come to my wedding and I was like yeah when's your wedding and she said the date and then that was the whole conversation so she was like give me she was like give me your address I'll send you an invite she didn't send the invite yeah a couple of months later I mean I never got an invite and so I just assumed that that was like she was just over excited about the fact that we had seen each other the night before I was like I don't really think she's gonna send me an invite like it's a throwaway comment you were like you know when you just like we should catch up sometime sure you know you're never gonna catch up like you know it let's get coffee come to my wedding you know same same tomato tomato so I thought it was

just a her being nice anyway or I thought that she had thought about it didn't want to invite me and then didn't want to have that awkward conversation of like actually sorry I thought about it. I don't want you to come. So I never got an invitation. And then fast forward a couple of months, I get a text message from her and it was, hey, I just want to know why you didn't show up to my wedding. Oh my God. And you were like, what fucking wedding? We're not actually having coffee. We're not having the coffee. I was like, what are you talking about? And she said, I sent you an invite. You said you were coming. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I said I was coming on text I never received an invite ever and that's why I didn't come and she was like but you had

said you were coming and I said I was sending you an invite so wouldn't you let me know if you didn't receive an invite and I was like I don't know who's in the wrong but I didn't show up to her wedding and she has never spoken to me since so is she saying is she trying to say that she sent you the invite and it got lost in the mail I'm gonna call her bluff I think she didn't send you an invite I think she sent you the text and then thought that was the invite and forgot and then when you called around and said I never got an invite she's like oh you shouldn't you should have told me you didn't get it like things don't really get lost in the mail anymore like they just don't I don't know see I actually genuinely I think back on this whole thing she never sent

me the details of the wedding so it's not like I had where to go any of that sort of stuff I genuinely think she sent me an invite she was mad when she texted me and to this day I still think about it sometimes. And I'm like, I'm that person who was a no-show. There was like a placemat for me and Matt at her wedding and we just didn't show up. Oh my God. I'm like scared this is going to come back and bite me in the ass. Anyway, guys, let us tell you what is happening on today's episode. This is such a big episode that we are bringing you today. For those of you who follow along on our Instagram at Life Uncut Podcast, you would have seen that on Sunday, we were recommending for you guys to go and watch a documentary. It was called Incarceration Nation.

It came out on SBS and it was a documentary aired by NITV. Now, if you haven't seen it, you can go back and watch it on SBS Digital. We so hugely recommend that you watch this documentary so that you can fully understand what this episode is about. But we're interviewing Carly, who is the CEO and co-founder of Deadly Connections and Justice Services Limited. Now, Carly is a proud Wiradjuri woman. She's from Southern New South Wales, and she talks extensively about the over-representation

of first nation people who are incarcerated in australia now the statistics behind this are incredibly harrowing and like i said please go and watch the documentary so that you do get a really full understanding because there is so much to cover and unfortunately in this interview we aren't able to cover all of it but we do get a greater insight into carly's life into what her and her husband keenan have experienced and also into what the three percent of our population 3% of our population who are the Indigenous population, what they are experiencing. But one thing I do want to touch on here is that this is not just a conversation around the incarceration of adults, but there is a really important part of this conversation

which touches on the incarceration of children. There is also a conversation around domestic violence and how the current systems that we have in Australia are failing our First Nation people. So this is a huge episode for us. We know that some of this is going to be very heavy listening, but we really hope that you can take something away from this and like i said there is a content warning on this we do touch on some pretty heavy topics so if this isn't an episode that you feel in the right head frame to listen to maybe it's something you can come back to later and that's okay too but we do really

think that this is such an important topic we feel really proud to be able to do this interview and like we said we recommend going and watching the sbs documentary when you feel up for it as well with that being said guys we are not going to be doing accidentally unfiltered on today's episode but you know how much we love them so we will be bringing them to you on Thursday's Ask Uncut episode. Now let's meet Carly. On Sunday night NITV aired a documentary called Incarceration Nation. You can find it now on SBS on demand but here is what the documentary is about. Why did it take George Floyd's sad and tragic, horrible death to bring any attention to what's happening right here,

right in front of us in Australia? There's been a history of violence in this country from that date when the ships arrived. Until we deal with the truth of this place and the lies of this place, we're going to continue to see more of the same. We are probably the most highly legislated race. You've got to really ask yourself the question, how's it worked? We started out as a penal colony

and we've continued to be one ever since. It's an injustice to have Australia's Aboriginal inhabitants 13 times more likely to end up in prison. In no other community will you see somebody walking to collect their mail and being stopped by police and asked, what are you doing? Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are amongst the most incarcerated people in the world.

Whilst representing 3.3% of the Australian population, First Nations men make up about 27% of prisoners and First Nations women constitute 34% of prisoners. There have been at least 478 deaths of First Nations people in custody in Australia from 1991 to 2021 and there have been no criminal convictions for the accused, absolutely none, 478 deaths and no criminal convictions. Incarceration Nation puts First Nations voices front and centre

as they fight for change, visibility and equality. Joining us today is Carly Stanley, the CEO and co-founder of Deadly Connections and Justice Services Limited. A proud Wiradjuri woman, we see Carly feature throughout the SBS documentary. Carly, welcome to Life Uncut. Thank you. I'm very, very happy to be here. Carly, can you tell us a little bit about what your childhood was like, where you grew up, and what your family makeup is? So I was raised by my mum, who is also a Wiradjuri woman. I was raised in sort of the inner city, inner west of Sydney. Yeah, I had a happy childhood. My mum's one of 10 children. So we came from a very, very large family unit. And my family was one of the

first Aboriginal families to sort of move from the country to the inner city, even though we remain very much connected to our culture through our family ties and our kinship networks. Growing up in a big family, I guess there was lots of different things happening and I felt very loved and I felt very protected but I now understand that there was a significant amount of intergenerational trauma within my family and that you know manifested in in many different ways I had family members who were justice involved and also you know some family members who didn't drink or smoke or do anything but then some that did drink and smoke and do drugs so you know I have a lot of fond memories but I also had you know trauma growing up as well. Carly just something you

just said, just to clarify for people in case they don't know what it is, intergenerational trauma, you just mentioned that there was a lot of that within your family. Can you just give us a little rundown on what you mean by that term? Yeah, so intergenerational trauma would be explained as trauma that's carried on through generations. So when we think about colonisation, Aboriginal people, I sort of explain that as Aboriginal people being in a constant state of grief, loss and trauma, first of all, through loss of culture, displacement from country, you know, removal of children and all of the things that have happened to Aboriginal people. And then that gets passed down unresolved through generations and generations. So it's almost, you know, you

could explain that as well as like, you know, we're born grieving because of the losses that we've experienced. I think one of the things that Britt and I spoke about after watching the documentary is and i don't even know what other way to say it except that it's embarrassing that i learned more about aboriginal and indigenous history and what happened in our country than what i learned in school just from watching a one and a half hour documentary i think that there is this huge lack of understanding and awareness and therefore there is this lack of understanding of what intergenerational trauma actually is and how that manifests itself now carly you are the CEO of Deadly Connections and Justice Services Limited. Can you tell us a little bit about what

is Deadly Connections and sort of how you go about helping the Indigenous community? Yeah, so Deadly Connections and Community and Justice Services Limited is an Aboriginal community-controlled organisation that was established by my husband, Kenan Mundine, and I in September of 2018. So we're coming up to our three-year anniversary. You know, we started deadly connections in community response to the over-representation of our people in the justice and child protection systems. I mean I've worked in the community services sector for over 20 years particularly in the justice space and my husband has lived experience of actually being in both the child protection system and the justice systems and we just seen the pain and you know

the unfair treatment that our people would get. We thought like how can we support our mob and how can we do things differently and that's how Deadly Connections was born. I think everybody knows this what Australia was colonized by the British and it's been mentioned in the documentary this word that we were a penal colony. Can you explain to us what that means? One of the big messagings that was driven home is that Australia is still effectively a penal colony which I think would come as a surprise to a lot of people that sort of wording and terminology. Can you explain what that means and why that's the case. The majority of Australia knows that when the First Fleet arrived in 1788, it was understood to be a penal colony so that convicts from England, Ireland,

Scotland and Wales were sent over to avoid the death penalty and that was their solution to their imprisonment crisis that was going on over there. And over the next 80 years, so from 1788 for the next 80 years, there was over 160,000 convicts sent to Australia. And it still is being used as a method to regulate and control rather than actually deal with the social issues that create crime. We've been very good at just locking people up and expecting them to learn their lesson. And that's, I guess, when we talk about a penal colony and the way that it's continued, that's what we're referencing. I mean, I guess there's a misunderstanding amongst the wider public around prisons and what happens in prisons and the way that locking people up is supposed to

keep us safer but in reality police and prisons are not an effective crime prevention tool because they become involved once a crime's been committed. What we want to do is resource the community so that crimes don't need to be committed. With the penal colony there's such I think you know the law and order rhetoric lock them up and it doesn't work for us. Our numbers are the highest they've ever been and the thing is a lot of people think that it's because crime's going up. We've got some of the lowest crime rates in over 20 years but the bail systems and the laws that people have to answer to when they appear before the court are changing and they're the things that are driving the numbers through the roof for prison numbers not crime a lot of the times when aboriginal people

are coming into contact with the criminal justice system it's either for violence or for crimes of survival so stealing and being able to support themselves and a lot of the things that people are being put in custody for like there's a number of women on non-violent drug offenses that are in custody that to me is such a waste of resources you know what they need is drug and alcohol treatment not to be incarcerated away from their children and it's the same you know we talk about non-violent and violent offenders and the reality is whether they're violent or non-violent sending them to jail is only going to increase the violence it's not going to deal with anything We are seeing that a lot of young people are going into custody for really petty crimes and

crimes of survival. And that is not helpful because they're going into prisons where they're taught other skills from other people who are also engaging in criminal activity. They're not having their trauma dealt with. They're not able to access supports, mental health supports, counselling supports, healing. They're not able to access any of the things that we know help contribute to a pro-social member of society. Carly, can you just explain to us a little bit about how you think stereotypes have impacted the over-representation of First Nations people that are currently incarcerated? I think for as long as the wider public believe the stereotypes of Aboriginal people that are so widely disseminated through media, through incorrect discourse, that they'll

support the fact that the majority of our men are in custody and the majority of our women are now the fastest rising prison population in the world. So for as long as people believe that Aboriginal people have nothing to offer other than the fact that they're drunks or they can't see anywhere else where we can fit into society. And in fact, if people actually took the time to come into community and to meet Aboriginal people for themselves, they would see that that's not who we are for the people that are engaging in that stuff it's coming coming from a deep place of hurt and trauma and no other skills to do things differently and that's what we want to do we're not saying that there are not challenges that we need to address but we're saying give us the

resources and tools to address them in the way that we know how and stop relying on like outside people to to fix the stuff that we know what's going on in the documentary we were shown that there were young First Nations people that were arrested and put into prison for things like like you just said survival crimes they were stealing bread rolls they had stolen 30 cents from somebody's car and I mean some people might say that I can't say what I'm about to say but I can almost guarantee you a white child that stole a bread roll would not go to prison and a white child that stole 30 cents from a car would not go to prison yeah I mean I agree and I think that's something that our community sees so often, the disparity between sentencing where, you know,

we've got an Aboriginal person and a non-Aboriginal person convicted of the same crime with different sentences. It's nothing new to us, but I guess what this documentary is highlighting is making that information readily available for everybody else, which we've always known. You did mention your husband earlier, and we were introduced to Keenan's story in the documentary. He shared his incredibly traumatic childhood story and how he went on to be incarcerated several times himself later in life. Can you tell us a little bit about his story, what happened, and also what happened in his life to break that cycle?

The reason why I ask that is because the statistics around when somebody has been incarcerated, the possibility and the likelihood that they will go on to commit new crimes and be incarcerated again is so high. and it just goes to show that this is a system that isn't built on rehabilitation but it's a system that's built on punishment and it's obviously a system that is so incredibly flawed yeah so I think my husband's story is one of many but a really important way to highlight the type of people who are in jails at the moment and that's men and women men and women who have had

and this is across the board not just for Aboriginal people it's exacerbated for our people, but across the board, we've got men and women in custody who have got significant traumatic childhoods. And as we spoke about with intergenerational trauma, you know, it's manifesting into drug use, it's manifesting into criminal activity to support the drug use, and it sort of goes from there. So my husband grew up in a large Aboriginal community in Redfern called The Block, and he lost both of his parents by the age of seven and placed into kinship care and sort split up from his siblings because they couldn't take them all at once they all went to different family members and you know the family at the time didn't really have the skills to understand

the trauma that my husband had been through and they thought that by just giving him a house and a bed that he'd be okay and obviously he wasn't and he had so many other things going on and wanting to be reconnected to his brothers and you know as he became an adolescent he had more questions he had all this unresolved trauma that had never been dealt with as many teenagers do starts experimenting with drugs and alcohol wanted to go and seek out his brothers so gravitated back towards Redfern where there was a number of people already involved in criminal activity and drug use and that's who he felt supported and where he felt he belonged and he went into custody for the first time at the age of 14 that was for stealing a laptop from a car to be able to feed himself to

be able to clothe himself because by this time he was homeless and the people that were caring for him didn't want him in the house anymore so he left and tried to find his brothers and then that that started his journey with the criminal justice system and he spent more than half of his life in and out of both juvenile adult custody. I met him in a very very short period where he was in the community for six weeks in between custodial sentences when he was still sort of unhealed and unsupported and he returned to custody when he was 25 and came back out when he was 28 but in that time between 25 and 28 he'd met me but he'd also gone into a therapeutic treatment centre within custody which was the first time that he'd been able to understand his trauma and the way

that it manifested and the way that that pushed him towards criminal activity and drug use and the wrong peer associations and the wrong role modelling and yeah and then he decided that's not what he wanted and from that moment on he tried to turn his life around it hasn't been easy he's still he's still on that journey and I think one of the big things that like a lot of people have heard this saying before but it's like do the crime do the time and I think that that's a very black and white way of looking at the world when we think about that we think about that saying it doesn't take into account people's circumstances and the reasoning behind why these crimes are being committed not all crimes are committed equally they're very very different and if one

is out of desperation, out of homelessness, out of lack of education or out of lack of support. There should be a very different outcome in the way that we treat people other than just locking them up and punishing them because it doesn't really deal with the root cause. It discussed a lot as well, the privatisation of the justice system, how we do have private jails in Australia in the very same way that we have them in the States. And I think a lot of Australians would be aware that the States have private jails, but maybe not that Australia does. Why is that such a huge problem? Well, I think any business structure that relies on having people in cells to profit is problematic. We see it with the, we call it the prison industrial complex. And it's

something that's been highlighted in the US very, very well. If anybody's seen the documentary 13th, Incarceration Nation reminds me very much of that documentary and the way that it brings everything together and shows that this is a structured way of continuing to oppress marginalised peoples and continuing to profit off marginalised peoples. When we talk about it's doing exactly what it's designed to do, it's continuing to oppress marginalised minorities. And that's what we're seeing in Australia. It's what we see across the globe. It's not to say that non-Aboriginal people don't commit crimes. Look at the white collar crimes, but they're not punished in the same way. And that's what makes a difference. One big thing that I know everyone's

familiar with and it's what rocked the world was the death of George Floyd and so many of us watched what happened in the United States were absolutely disgusted by it we are so aware that there is racism that there is racial discrimination that there is an issue within the police force and within the justice system and we kind of watched that from Australian shores being like god that the states has really messed up but what I don't think a lot of people may realize and what I certainly didn't realize prior to watching this documentary is that we have had a very similar and have had many similar situations to this happen in our own shores and one of the stories that was shared is the story of David Dungay who was 26 years old he was in his prison cell and he

was in a New South Wales jail he was very close to being released only a couple of weeks away from being released and he was in his jail cell and he was eating biscuits the guards asked him to stop and he didn't and almost just for that cheekiness for disobeying an order that's been asked of him he was then taken by six guards into another cell he was sedated and his last words were also I can't breathe over and over again now this happened in 2015 it's a story that I think so many Australians are just not aware of and the question that I have is is why are we so enraged by what's happening in other countries what why are we so angry by what's happening in the states but we aren't even aware of what's happening in Australia I think there's a number of factors at play there but

I mean obviously we've got social media now that gives us stuff in real time so I think many many years ago that would have happened to George Floyd and we would have heard about it a week later or whenever we played you know catch up but the info has always been here in Australia like we've had the Royal Commission to Aboriginal Deaths in Custody 30 years ago and that made a number of recommendations that still have not been implemented there's a number of people who are families who are fighting for justice for their loved ones who have lost their lives to the justice system I feel like it's in people's face it's a bit harder now to ignore because of social media and because of you know things that are trending Black Lives Matter was trending just after COVID

last year and the donations for Deadly Connections surged and we've never seen since we've started Deadly Connections we've never seen donations like that any time since there were protests that occurred across different parts of Australia and I think they were the biggest protests that we've ever had for movements like this for social justice movements because I think a lot of the times it's easy to ignore things that don't directly affect you and for a lot of the wider public the criminal justice system isn't something they've ever thought about or isn't something they've ever been impacted by but for Aboriginal people my earliest exposure to the justice system was because my family members were incarcerated and I remember visiting them from the age of three

four five years old with my grandmother when I was very very young so it's normalized for us in in a way we know that the people that are in jail are not terribly bad people there are some people that are in jail that probably need to be there but we know that jails aren't the answer the reason people have to go to jail at the moment is because we don't have any other alternatives and that's what we want to change a huge part of this problem is that children are at the epicenter this means that this cycle is just going to continue until we can literally break the cycle with the next generation we're all familiar with the stolen generation at least i hope every one of you is familiar with the stolen generation but the fact is indigenous children are 10 times more

likely to be taken from their family so carly how and why is this still happening well i mean all of the systems that we have in Australia, the child protection systems, the legal systems, all built off the back of England's systems. So we've got a colonial system that doesn't recognise any of the laws that Aboriginal people had prior to colonisation. It also doesn't recognise any of the cultural nuances or differences across different cultures, you know, but particularly for Aboriginal people where we have different ways of doing things. We have very big families, we have reciprocal relationships you know it's very different so we're being judged by generally if we think about a case where a child's removed the decision to remove that child is in

the hands of five or six non-Aboriginal people that are bound by practices that we've inherited over the years from colonial systems and they don't get us you know they don't understand and they don't value our opinions and our knowledge of our own communities I mean we've had instances where we've been supporting women very well, very intensively to try and avoid child protection removals and they've gone in and removed without even consulting us. Sometimes we work really well with them and we've had success where we've prevented removals of newborn babies from their mums at the hospital. We've had successes but I guess when we're not included and when we're not considered it just takes us back so far but when we are included we work well together. We're able

to get good outcomes for families and for children. We don't want to see any children removed. And what the government is really, really good at doing is investing in the tail end of things. So once people are offending, locking them up. Once people are to the point where their child needs to get removed, spending thousands, hundreds of thousands on placing this child with a non-Aboriginal family

rather than resourcing the family in the way that they need to be resourced. we actually did an interview with a woman named jess hill recently and jess works very heavily within coercive control and domestic violence and she spoke about coercive control and she spoke about how hugely that number of indigenous people are affected by domestic violence within australia but what she mentioned is that women who may be the victims of domestic violence the police aren't necessarily trained to deal with how those women act or how those women behave and there have been cases where women have called for help, called out and actually called the police to come and

support them in an instance of domestic violence. But instead of receiving that support, they have been charged for other things. They have been charged for acting in a way that maybe wasn't conducive for being a victim. But I mean, who are we to say, as a victim, this is how you need to behave? Yeah, 100%. I mean, for Aboriginal communities in particular, we're matriarchal societies. So we take our bloodlines from our mother. So when we've got a disruption to the matriarch it's havoc that's something that the government fails to understand and I'm really glad you sort of brought this up because there's a lot of contention with our community around coercive control because we don't believe that the solutions are found in more legislation

because what we're concerned about is exactly what you've said if we're criminalizing coercive control and the police get called out there's an incident what happens is the woman will become criminalized if the story isn't given straight and given the way it needs to be given I think a really, really good example. I mean, it's not a good example. It's a heartbreaking example of the way that this works is a woman in Western Australia, Tamika Malaly. I don't know if you've heard of her. Yeah, she was a victim of domestic violence, severe domestic violence. She was attacked by her partner at the time. Police were called. When they presented, she was drenched in blood. A neighbour had wrapped her in a sheet. The sheet was covered in blood. When the police

attended she became she was distraught she became aggressive with the police she swore at them she asked for her father they didn't listen they threw her into the back of a paddy wagon they arrested her the perpetrator found her four-month-old baby recovered the baby killed the baby while she was in custody her father was pleading with the police to help them to get the baby back because he knew that that the baby was going to be harmed they didn't listen to him the baby died which was heartbreaking, four-month-old baby Charlie. And they then charged Tamika and her father with obstruction of justice and proceeded with those charges. And I believe they were found guilty. The story of Tamika and Charlie is unbelievably horrific. And I did just mention Jess Hill.

This is actually a really, it's an interesting crossover for us because Jess Hill, who has a documentary, See What You Made Me Do, I know a lot of our listeners are familiar with it. we interviewed her a little while ago episode number two of her documentary see what you made me do actually tells the full story of what happened that night and it is incredibly harrowing if anybody hasn't gone and listened to that interview that we did with jess hill it's a it's a very important and powerful conversation in incarceration nation we are also introduced to another girl who was abused in her foster homes in the 20 something foster homes that she bounced between after she was relocated and separated from her family we do have a little grab from

this from incarceration nation to play for you guys she says an assault by a care worker when she was 11 has left her traumatized and then he just kept on looking at me funny ways but i didn't think anything of it you know because i was young still you know and i didn't think anything of it and then um yeah he opened his legs and his fly was down and i jumped up and i went to my room And then I was just dazed and off to sleep, you know, and as I was going to sleep, he walked in the room, closed the door, and that's, yeah. And then I just turned real heartless for a bit, for a while,

and just did whatever I could do to make a good reason to get locked up, you know? The girl who had been interviewed says that she kept re-offending so that she could go back into custody, implying that that was a better place to be being in custody was better than what it was being in the foster homes that she was in. Carly what is the snowball effect of children being removed from their parents due to them being locked up? Well we know that for children who lose their parents to imprisonment they have a higher likelihood of themselves being incarcerated

either as a child or an adult or both. It's perpetuating that trauma I mean one would have to question how much safer are these children being removed from their families instead of resourcing families with the skills and the tools that they need to look after their children because what we're not understanding particularly for Aboriginal people who are part of the stolen generation who have never experienced that organic family there's an assumption that people are born with the capacity to parent and that's not always the case particularly for our communities so one would need to question why we're not investing more into the families and why we're investing into taking children like this young girl who experienced unbelievable abuse you know how have

we kept this child safer how is the system keeping our children safer we know that this is not an isolated story we've got incidences of children being removed from their families and being put in hotel rooms with 24-hour support workers. To me, that's just insane. It's insane that we can't be paying somebody to live in the home with them and give these parents the skills that's needed. We know that locking people up and removing children from their families does not work, yet we continue to do it. Why? One of the big things that I think that no one could look away from, but let alone a mother watching that doc, like the doco, was the incarceration of juveniles. Now, what the documentary explores is that there are children who have been incarcerated in our correctional facilities in Australia who have spent 23 days straight in solitary confinement with only being allowed less than an hour outside of their tiny little cell, and that isn't even in natural daylight.

There were also children who have been very violently strip searched by correctional guards, and some of the footage is just harrowing. Carly how is this happening and how has this been happening for so long and nobody well I shouldn't say nobody I know a lot of people are very very angry about it but why aren't more people aware of this because I feel like if the general population was aware of it there would be public outcry I think racism in Australia plays a really big part all you have to do is get on a post on social media where somebody's posted something outrageous the assault of a child in custody or whatever it is and then you see all the people on there justifying that behavior and that treatment of that child we see a young person in the documentary it looks like he's vandalizing the

center he's just come out of a period of solitary confinement and that's what the media will go these are the people that are being locked up look at his behavior but not giving the context to what's led to him behaving like that the way that we talk about the work with young people in Deadly Connections is we don't have bad kids, we have hurt kids. A lot of the kids that are in prison, similar to the adults, come from traumatic backgrounds and their behaviour is a manifestation of their trauma and their disadvantage. And until we deal with that, we're going to continue

to have these issues and they're not bad kids, they just need support. This all just leads back to what we were saying earlier about how incarcerating people, that we know that when someone has been incarcerated, the probability of them being incarcerated at a second time increases and especially when we see these these children and the footage that you were referring to Carly for anybody who hasn't seen the doco yet it is this 14 year old boy he has spent 23 days this is the boy that I was referring to is 23 days in solitary confinement inside a room that is about three and a half meters by two meters anybody who spent that long

without any natural daylight he didn't know what time of day it was he didn't know night from day anymore one of the guards actually didn't lock his cell and he got out into a more common area and that's when he vandalized the common area and as a punishment for that all the boys that were in the cell there were six of them were tear gassed in short range and now this is I think tear gas is very different to pepper spray just so people are aware of the significance of it and the pain that that inflicts but that was the punishment and I agree with you Carly I think if you saw that out of context if you just saw that footage you would be like that kid's out of control he deserved it he needs to be in there he's yeah but that's not the case that was the

hardest thing for me to watch the treatment of the kids in that movie and it was just like we know it we see it but seeing it like bang bang bang and i was like wow this is what people need to see like it's so traumatizing but it's what people need to see and the other thing is you know we're not we're not seeing this treatment with non-aboriginal kids some point last year i believe when the black Lives Matter protests were happening, 100% of the young people in custody in the Northern Territory were Aboriginal. 100%. Let's let that sink in for a minute. Nowhere else does that happen with any other cultural identity. Nowhere else. And if we had non-Aboriginal children being treated like this, there'd be outrage. And that's why I say, you know, Australia does a really good

job at othering and making sure that people see Aboriginal people as less than human and that's what allows people to permit this behaviour to go on as not seeing this as their own children because they're Aboriginal children it's different they're not white children they're not my children and when we when we talk about children and raising the age we say not my children not your children but our children because they're everyone's children. Can you tell us because there are communities that have implemented successful strategies to help Indigenous communities. They're based on things like less policing and more support. What is the solution? What are you pushing to be put in place to break this cycle? Well, we need structural change, first of all.

If you look at the budgets of the justice expenditure, it's like $10 billion for New South Wales alone. It's crazy money being put into this disruptive violence system that continues to perpetuate harm on people who are already harmed so community-led solutions for us is the big one and it's also incorporating transformative justice so we in Deadly Connections we talk about transformative justice which is one layer above restorative justice so to me if I can explain it as you know you've had your bike stolen for example restorative justice would be I've stolen your bike we get together I apologize for stealing your bike you get your bike back that's what happens. Transformative justice is that still happens, but then we try to understand why did

I steal your bike in the first place? What would have stopped me from stealing your bike? Did I steal your bike because I was hungry? Did I steal your bike because I was bored? Why did I steal your bike? And then we can put solutions in place to stop that from happening again. That's what transformative justice is. Alternatives to imprisonment, diversionary programs, things that we know healing houses. You know, Deadly Connections wants to start a healing house for people who are justice involved with child protection as well, whether that's as children or as adults, you know, but we lack the resources to do it. I'm conscious about how to frame this because I know that it is a perception that I think a lot of people in Australia have, and it

is what adds to racism in Australia. But there is a thought, you see it in social media, you see it in the comment section it's the comment of like we have so many support systems in regards to like you can get funding like they're on benefits I think that there is this mentality well you can get money from the government so there's already things in place why is that such an incorrect thought that people have why is that so flawed and completely unhelpful to the actual situation at hand I think a lot of the information that the wider public get comes from media or comes from people who just don't know aboriginal people are three percent of the population so we are trying to convince 97 of the population that the way that we're being treated is not okay that's not easy

there's not a lot of people that can go to aboriginal people or communities and say is this the case there was a recent clip that i put on on our socials where senator lydia thorpe was questioning the government on their expenditure under the indigenous advancement strategy which is supposed to be for aboriginal communities and they'd given away over a billion dollars to large corporations like Crown Casino, Woolworths for Aboriginal employment programs. So this is why people think that Aboriginal people get so much funding. The funding is directed towards Aboriginal people but it's being given to non-Aboriginal corporations and organisations to do the work and it doesn't work because they're not equipped to work with our communities. Aboriginal people don't

get any more benefits than any other group who require support. We've got different names for things but we've got ab study we've got oz study the amounts are the same nobody get you know we don't get free houses we don't get free cars if we do i'd like to know where they are because nobody that i know gets them you know also this idea that like and i think that this is something that a lot of people don't think about like true poverty what true poverty looks like if you don't have a tax file number if you don't have a birth certificate you don't get serviced you slip through those cracks now this is relative to indigenous people and to non-indigenous people but there is a gap in our system which doesn't cater for the people who are the most vulnerable because they

do not have the ability or the services to be able to access what is available or not even necessarily just having wi-fi and a computer where you can go cool i'm gonna jump on and get onto my gov and that's a really good point laura because that's all part of systemic racism as well it all contributes to that belief where it separates us from them it's like aboriginal people have been given a fair chance you know they've got so much money poured at them we've got a denial of the prime minister that there was slavery when we know that aboriginal people were were not paid wages and their wages were withheld from them and there's many families and communities who are still battling to this day to recover those wages for their loved ones we haven't had the opportunity

to participate in the economy the way that everybody else has even still now we've got people being released like you said no birth certificate no tax one number you can't even get Centrelink if you don't have those documents like you can't even get benefits and we're seeing this problem as well with the refugees now as well where if you're not an Australian citizen you can't access support these systems that are set up to help vulnerable people further disenfranchise them and even when we think about people coming out of custody something that Deadly Connections advocates for quite strongly is giving people employment opportunities if we've got people coming out of custody with no opportunity to get a job they're left with two options

welfare dependency or re-offending that's it and people don't think of it that way I mean part of our journey with my husband and I part of Deadly Connections as well is giving people with criminal records an opportunity every single person that works for Deadly Connections has lived experience of some sort we employ both Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal people we've got two non-Aboriginal people working with us at the moment both of them have experience of being to jail and we've also got an aboriginal woman who has lived experience with child protection and the justice system so for us being able to give people opportunities like that we know employment is more than just a job for a lot of those people it's so easy for someone to sit back and say oh well they didn't

even go and get a job they got out they got given another chance they didn't go get a job if you physically if like if everyone just thinks about this for a moment now you've just been and like your husband said in his story when he was telling his story he said they opened the gates when it was time for me to be released and they said off you go and that was it imagine standing there with no phone you want to go and do the right thing but how are you supposed to eat how are you supposed to get a job how do you get to the job how do you find the job you don't have internet access you don't have a roof over your head and I think that's really easy for us to forget but I think if you put yourself in this position and if everyone goes

and watches this documentary, it really is eye-opening. So do you think that they're the things that we should be putting this money back into? Yeah, 100%. I mean, everything that you've touched on, I think it's sort of worth acknowledging that change happens at different parts of people's lives depending on where they're at. So, you know, something that a lot of people get caught up on is advocating

for support for young people, but my husband didn't make those changes until he was in his mid-20s. And if he didn't have those supports available, then what would have happened? He would have gone back to what he knew how to do. And that was to support himself through crime. They were the skills that he had. They were the tools that he had in his toolbox.

So the aim for us is to give people different tools, different skills, and different ways of doing things, which some of them have never had the opportunity to do. And this is why we need to continue that journey. We need to provide other alternatives like healing houses where people can come and learn the skills that they need to be the best parent they can be, to be a pro-social member of society and to be able to heal the trauma and the factors that keep them entrenched in the justice and child protection systems. As someone who is not Indigenous, what can we do to better support our community and better to support that 3% when we are the majority percentage in Australia?

There's many things that you can do. Taking action comes in many forms. So we don't expect to be everyone to be on the streets protesting because, you know, your support can come in many ways but becoming an accomplice and we use the word accomplice rather than ally because we feel like an ally is sort of someone who's standing beside you but we want someone who's going to get their hands dirty and who's going to get into it and that could be you know writing to parliament and demanding change or writing to your local member and asking them to raise the age or to change the legislation that we know entrenches our people in the system you could also support community-led solutions whether that's locally or whether that's deadly connections there are

lots of Aboriginal community control organisations operating across Australia doing the work, the grassroots work that needs to be done. A lot of ACCOs similar to Deadly Connections don't have any funding. Challenging racism and stereotypes amongst your peers or amongst your families or amongst your colleagues, supporting our journey to try and get a healing house because I know who I'd rather be living next to. I'd rather be living next to somebody that's had the opportunity to address their issues or their challenges. I don't want to be living next to somebody who's done 20 years in jail and they've opened the gate and just spat them out because we know what kind of people that that creates. The other thing is volunteer with Aboriginal community

controlled organisations, donate your time, donate your resources. I mean, for Deadly Connections, we're so under-resourced at the moment. I'm HR, I'm social media, I'm the communications team. My husband sort of does, you know, partnerships and marketing and everything that we have done, we've had to learn ourselves. And there are so many people that have got expertise that they could lend to us and promoting our work through podcasts like this and through our socials, spreading the message about what we're doing and changing the narrative. Changing the narrative is the biggest thing because like I said, we're 3% of the population trying to convince 97% of the population that what's happening isn't right. Carly, thank you so much for giving us

your time thank you so much for all of your work not just with Deadly Connections but with putting together this documentary guys if you have not seen Incarceration Nation it was out on SBS on Sunday night but you can go and watch it I think that you will feel the same as Britt and I did and you know we're really proud to be able to sit down and talk to you Carly and thank you for everything that you are doing can you please tell all of the listeners where they can find you and also how they can access more information about Deadly Connections and get involved if there is a way that they can help yeah thank you so much again for having me and thank you for taking an interest in such an important topic and and you know trying to create change it's really important to us we have a

website which you can find out more information is www.deadlyconnections.org.au we also have an instagram page at deadly connections same as facebook at deadly connections and we have a Twitter account, which is at Deadly CCAJS. Carly, thank you so much. You have been such a wonderful person to interview. It's such a hard conversation to have, but it's such an important one. And so thank you so much for giving us your time today. I've learned so much and I hope all of you guys can take the time to go and watch Incarceration Nation also, because I know that it'll touch you as much as it touched Laura and myself. Carly, thank you for coming and we'll chat to you soon. Thank you. Thanks, Brittany. Thanks, Laura. Bye.

all right guys you know that we never finish an episode without our second and now sweet our highlight and our low light of each and every week brittany hit me you are living a much more sensational life than me at the moment what is your highlight and your low light i definitely am i'm sorry about that yes i'm like it's not even one of those things where you can feel bad by saying that because you're like your life sucks it's i'm sorry for you no that's the hard thing i actually feel fucking horrendous and i just swore so much but it's so hard for me to like i don't want to say what i'm doing because i feel so horrible for all of you at home but you know we do have to do suck and sweet so i'm going to find one my suck it up yeah so suck

it up my sweet for the week is that it is the u.s open tennis tournament obviously it's one of the biggest tennis tournaments it's very exciting to be here and jordan is playing today so tuesday he's playing today so send all your well wishes my way sorry not my way jordan's way i'm irrelevant send them to jordan my suck is because it's the us open here and it's such a big competition there's only four of these grand slams a year i am sleeping in a separate bed to jordan so we're here together we're we're together for us we're together for a small amount of the year and he's kicked me out he's well I mean okay he didn't kick me out I was trying to do this like reverse psychology thing where I was trying to be like the really good supportive girlfriend I know he

needs a lot of sleep and I don't want to interrupt that so I was like hey love like do you want me to just like sleep in the other room you know just give you the space that you need so you get a really good sleep reverse psychology I was thinking he would say no I don't I want to sleep with you He's like, oh my God, that would be amazing. I was like, what the fuck? I was like, that was not how this conversation went in my head. Brittany's sleeping in a hotel down the road. And she's like, I swear my relationship's fine.

Everything's great. So I'm in another room, not even another bed in the same room. I'm in a whole nother room. I've got a whole nother bathroom. So I feel like we're living this separate life at the moment. But, you know, it's more important for him to be able to sleep well and play well. So that's my suck. And that's my sweet.

I understand it. I understand why like couples get into their 40s, 50s, 60s and sometimes decide to have a different bedroom. And they're like, fuck off. well i wake up in the morning i wake up right because i'm like he sleeps in so i can't wake him up in the morning either so i just have to bide my time on do start doing some work in bed until i finally hear like all the way down the corridor this really soft noise i hear cutie and then i know that's like my alarm and then i'm allowed to enter the room he's of a

different breed i think when you're a professional sports person like especially when you're in the key part of your competition i guess you can be a little bit selfish you can be like totally you're gonna sleep down the other end of the house and do not disturb me just come and have sex with me and leave yeah I'm low-key loving it to be honest what's your second swing okay my suck for the week is the wedding I don't think I can top that one right now so I know we've said this a couple of times but the current state of the situation is this idea that you can't get excited about things anymore you know that there's not really the potential to like book something in and then look forward to the future I think at the moment it's just this groundhog day and that's

probably the best way of describing it just everything feels very gray and we're kind of doing the same thing every day and that's definitely been my suck is like missing out on things that six months ago I was so looking forward to so yeah you know I want to see my mom everybody's in the same boat I know you guys all feel the same and this is it's very galvanizing that I think we collectively are all experiencing this and we all have the same feelings towards this my sweet for the week and I think you know what it's the little things I mentioned at the start that like I went to the park with the kids I know that that doesn't sound exciting but like I took Molly and Lola we went to Centennial Park we went bush like we went right up into like where

it's overgrown and foliage and I just wanted to get away from the people and just be able to walk around with the kids and have a nice time outside out of our apartment and it meant the world to have these little moments to be able to look forward to and that was like by far I didn't take my phone it was by far the highlight of my week but what you just said I just want to like pull you up on that for a hot little second when you say I know it's not that big of a deal or I know it's not that exciting a it is b but that's exactly what suck and sweet's about it doesn't have to be this big extravagant moment it's just something that's special in your life and that's why we encourage all you guys to do this at home too when you're at dinner with your family or with

your flatmates just ask each other what's your suck and your sweet what's the best thing and the littlest thing it's just a it's a way to be grateful for what you've got it's a way to reflect on what you've got and it's a way to just enjoy all the little moments exactly like you just said Laura and I really think like in saying that if you're in the same situation that we're in if you're in lockdown if you're feeling like it's groundhog day if you're feeling all the things that I've just described like carving out a little bit of time for yourself whatever it is maybe it's reading your favorite book maybe it's you know watching four episodes in a row of that tv show that you love like whatever self-care looks like maybe it is spending some time with your kids and

getting out of the house in a way that's safe obviously but just like going and doing something that's really special quality time to break up the monotony like for me I know that I find it really easy just to get into a cycle of work work work and then because I'm constantly around my laptop and I'm not really engaged with my children and I had a real awakening this week where I was like I don't want to spend this really precious time with them always with my head in my phone and Marley's gotten to an age now where she will say no phone mummy no phone mummy and oh that's hard that's tough yeah and it just I had a real week where I was like I I want to make some changes so that I don't have to hear my child say no phone mummy anymore so yeah that was big a big shift for

me and I just want everyone who's in this situation to know that like we are thinking of you and we hope that we are bringing you content that for some you know I know today's episode was really heavy but we really are trying to bring you a lot of escapisms i hope that you're enjoying the batch uncut i hope you're enjoying all the bonus episodes that we're putting together all of this is because we know that you guys are at home and we just hope that it can bring a little smile to your face and on that note guys that is it from us so you know the drill please send your accidentally unfiltered and your ask uncuts to our instagram which is life uncut podcast just make sure you label them ask uncut if it's a question or accidentally unfiltered if it's one of your

funny fuck ups because we love hearing that we really we really i can't stress enough please write that shit in also if there's anything that's funny that has happened to you or we remember we used to do i can't believe they said that we want to hear about anything that is happening in your life and all the good juicy great shit goes down in our facebook discussion group so if you're not a member of that yet that is on facebook and that is life uncut podcast and anyway guys you know the drill tell your mom tell your dad tell your dog tell your sister and your brother and your uncle and your cousin and the chick down the road and maybe your friend who's in a really shitty ass toxic relationship and she needs a bit of hard love and soft love from life

uncut and share the love because we love love okay i totally i totally fucking whispered that because it's 2 a.m and john's asleep and i was like we love love i love you so much and i'm gonna be crucified in the morning i brought the enthusiasm for you We'll be right back.