Life Uncut - Is It Just Sex Or Is There Emotion? When It Comes To Cheating, Is Physical Or Emotional Worse?

Episode Date: October 28, 2025

Hey Lifers and happy Halloween!Britt really put in the effort this year but we can’t work out if she’s Gandalf or God.Do you celebrate Halloween now or did you as a kid? We share some stories from our childhood about Halloween.Britt has had a beauty mishap and Keeshia has gone wagatha mode to try and figure out which neighbour stole her bin.Is it just sex or is there emotion? When it comes to cheating, is physical or emotional worse? Lily Allen has dropped the break up album of all time that has us feeling like we are reading her diary. In it, she shares how her and her husband David Harbour (of Stranger Things fame) had an unconventional arrangement where he could have sex with other people, as long as it was ‘discreet’ and ‘paid for with strangers’. Lily later found out through snooping that David had been having an affair where they in fact, played tennis!Today we wanted to unpack one particular line in her new music “is it just sex or is there emotion” and speak about how men and women seem to view emotional vs physical cheating differently.Researchers asked what kind of betrayal, emotional or physical, would hurt more. They found that on average, men report feeling more distress over physical infidelity whereas women more often said that emotional betrayal, when a partner develops feelings or emotional closeness with someone else, was more painful. Lily described the tracks as being "inspired by" what happened in her marriage, she says they are "not gospel" and that it’s “a mixture of fact and fiction.” We share how we feel about the woman who has been ‘outed’ in this and whether you can share so much that exposes other people without being clear on what’s real and what has been made up. You can watch us on Youtube Find us on Instagram Join us on tiktok Or join the Facebook Discussion Group Hosted by Britt Hockley & Keeshia Pettit  Produced by Keeshia Pettit Video Produced by Vanessa Beckford Recorded on Cammeraygal Land Tell your mum, tell your dad, tell your dog, tell your friend and share the love because WE LOVE LOVE! XxSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This episode was recorded on Camaragal land. Hi guys, and welcome back to another spooky episode of Life Uncut. I'm Brittany. Oh, Keisha can't look. I can't look at you. Brittany, she looks like Gandalf. Okay, this is our Halloween episode. Keisha's here. Laura's up on the Tony Leaves deal. Keisha is barely here because she's had the virus for like four months and she almost didn't make it in today. Yeah I'm sorry I do actually I am asking for a little bit of grace today if I'm not laughing as much as possible it's not because Brittany is less funny today it's actually just because I'm struggling when I laugh I tend to cough so I'm kind of trying to pull the reins in but you know

that I absolutely love Halloween it is like my favorite thing that happens throughout the year that I actually get involved with, I like to decorate for. Last year I wore my spooky ghost buns. Laura thought I was coming from The Handmaid's Tale. You did, yeah. So last year, like we didn't dress up or anything, but Keish did her hair in some little buns and she had like little ghost things on them and Keish was a bit upset that I think, quote,

you said put in more effort, Brittany. And so as your boss, I took that constructive criticism on board. You have put in every effort today. I just ate my own hair. this costume. If you guys haven't gone onto YouTube, please do, because then you'll see what we're talking about. I have delivered for Keisha. I have delivered. I don't know what I am. I don't know if I'm Gandalf. Someone asked me if I was God. You are wearing an all white outfit. So it kind of does lean into the God vibes. It's a wizard, Gandalf or God. What I'm liking the most

is that the mustache isn't hanging down. It's hanging out. Like a, what is it? Like a veranda. but look at when i laugh or breathe did you celebrate halloween as a kid was it like kind of off the table sorry have we moved on from my costume is it oh sorry i just thought you'd give me a like a rating or be impressed or something sorry i am very impressed it actually is absolutely hilarious but like i said i'm trying not to laugh too much but as i walked in the room i was behind the wall and i couldn't see you and you said who goes there what on earth is she talking about because I do lean in I method act so yeah I have lent into it I am gonna spoiler this is gonna come off in about 10 minutes there

is no way this can stay off and we have a huge interview with someone very famous straight after this and I cannot a be wearing this could you imagine I think she'd love it we were interviewing I'm so excited like I am it's one of those what is my life things that I'm having at the moment but A, I cannot be in this costume. B, I think it might be leaving some kind of a rash. No, I think it's like I'm getting a moustache rash. So it's a disaster. Anyway, you look fantastic.

I appreciate the effort so much. Also, of all of the hair colours you've ever had, grey's never been one of them. So it really brings out your eyes. I do fight my greys, that's why. But no, Keish, to answer your question, we weren't an overly big Halloween family. Now, cast your minds back.

Like I am 30 early to mid-late 30s. And so when we were kids, it wasn't a huge thing yet. And we were in like a smaller town. There weren't that many like streets or that many houses that contributed, like that wanted to be a part of it. And so it was just a bit creepy. Like there'd just be one random house and you'd be like, who's actually in there?

Like who's that person that's like, come in, kids. So I think my parents were a bit like, and I always remember my mum saying this, it's too American. She used to say that statement all the time as kids. But I think now it's like everyone does it now. Well, everyone also says like it's American, it's commercialized. And I'm like, yeah, but what in our life isn't? So is Valentine's Day.

Valentine's Day is arguably more. Like at least the treats for Halloween are pretty cheap. Actually, that's not true. I went to the grocery store yesterday and stocked up. They have really got cost of living. No, do you know what it is? It's like weddings. You know, when you get married or you have a party, the second you say wedding, everything's more.

It's the same for Valentine's Day. Christmas, Easter, like chocolate's more at Easter because it's Easter. They slap like a holiday price tag on stuff. I'm so sorry. I'm really struggling to take you seriously. But I think the reason I'm so into Halloween as an adult is because now that I'm an adult, I have free will and I'm able to make choices for myself because when I was a kid, I've kind of got some like really bad memories around Halloween because

You were the one that went to that creepy house? Well, no, I went to public schools my whole life. But when I started school, my family weren't religious. And then my dad found God while actually, and my mom, while we were at school. So what age were you when they were like born again? Probably about seven, something like that. Anyway, my dad, he's the type of person who, when he gets into something, he like really gets into something.

To be fair, he really does embody it. Like he's got conviction. He really follows through. Still now, like 30 years later. Yep. Yep. Still completely follows through. But that meant that we weren't allowed to do anything that had anything to do with witchcraft

or wizardry. So in October at my primary school, they used to, like, do Halloween crafts and arts and, like, decorate the room. And whenever everyone was doing that, my dad said that I had to sit outside and do math. Oh, my God. Do you want to know something so funny? It was the opposite. My parents made me do the same thing, but when it was scripture. Like Bible studies.

They said they didn't want you to be a part of that. Yeah, they took us out of that and we would do the same thing. You'd go to the library and you'd have to do homework or math or read. And that was because like my parents, I don't know, I guess you'd call them agnostic or atheist, but we are non-believers. Having said that, I'm baptized. Like we're baptized. It was a weird thing.

You just baptized your kids, but then you didn't have to. So we were in scripture. And then if you guys have little kids in the car right now, turn it off. We're going to talk about some stuff. So this is your spoiler. la-da-dag, three, two, one. They just started saying that to my brother and a few of us that like they, there was one that was just an extreme teacher. It was like, you're going to hell for doing this, this and this. You can't, they were like against Christmas and things like that.

They were sort of outing the Easter bunny and things like that. You know, like it was just my, my parents were like, this is not what you're supposed to be learning. This person is extreme and I'm taking you out. Especially when they said my brother was going to hell. Mom was like, That's it. She also took us out of gymnastics, but that's another story. She said gymnastics was too scary. I was too dangerous. It's off the cards.

She did. She's like, there's no more Bible and you better believe you're not going back to gymnastics. Yeah. I wonder how they deal with it now. I wonder how, I mean, teachers and stuff address it because I guess we've become a lot more accepting of different religions and different cultures and the things that you can do for different holidays and that kind of thing. I wonder how they, I don't know, if you're a teacher, I would actually love to know,

do you still do things like halloween crafts do you still do things like christmas do you also celebrate other like minority religions and and do things to celebrate their holidays at your school too yeah my um i think they do i think i think what they do now is they celebrate everyone uh my sister sherry and her daughter so my little niece maya maya is half indian and so at she's only one she turned one like a month or two ago but at her preschool they celebrate all the all the days and so the Indian day of celebration is called Diwali and so even though she's only one they had like a Diwali day and they got to like celebrate they get like a little Indian cuisine and it's really cute and even though they're only one they're starting to introduce

those things at that age and I think that's really cool so any kids from from anywhere get to like have their special day and I think it's really cool so I can only imagine if they're doing that at preschool that's what's carried into school now but I don't think there would be I think you would be hard pushed to find a teacher at a public school now that is allowed to tell kids they're going to hell like far out I think you'd be hard pushed to find a parent who's able to say that their kid has to sit outside and do math I know so then you're okay let's just like unpack that a little bit Keish this is crazy so if what would happen if your dad saw you with me now you'd be grounded I think dad's kind of let that ship sail I think I'm a bit of a lost cause in his mind

if he had any idea he's got no fucking clue you can't be saved like if he had any idea what I spoken about on this podcast, he would probably, he would actually have a heart attack. Like I think it would genuinely put him into a coma. Not even what you've spoken about, just the life you've lived. It's been reckless. You've been living your best life since I met you. So, and weirdly enough, I don't really use math anymore. So, so here's a question. What happened then? Cause I can only imagine you would have been like, you must've been eight, nine, 10 when like Harry Potter and stuff came out. Did you have to bypass? Is that, oh, that's a touchy subject. It's a touchy subject mostly because my grandparents purchased the books

for my brother and my dad burnt them in the fire. Shut the front door. I can't. I actually can't. Yeah. Hang on. You got given Harry Potter? Well, my brother did and dad used them as kindling.

Oh, my God. In front of you. It was a cold winter. Did they do this in front of you? Yes. I've got a kisser. Yeah, I thought you knew that. I thought that that's why you were leading us down that track.

No, I knew it was bad. I got goosebumps thinking about it. Yeah, we didn't go and watch. I didn't watch the Harry Potter films until I was like a later teenager. I really missed out on some good cultural moments. You didn't try and do a spell to save the books? Was that the wrong time? Like read the room?

Well, I didn't know what the spells were. I hadn't read them. So were you allowed to watch TV and stuff? I'm really getting into this. Yeah, yeah. And to be fair, this isn't just a part of the church. This was just my dad's interpretation of it. There were plenty of other families that we went to church with that watched all different kinds of shows and partook in whatever they wanted.

You didn't feel left out? I felt so left out when I was sitting out there doing addition and algebra at 10. I don't mean when the entire world was like on the Harry Potter train. You're like, Harry who? Meanwhile, you're at home locked under the stairs. Lots to unpack. It's funny. you know you hear all these people say that when there's extreme parenting either way you always

hear that those kids end up rebelling and or doing the opposite of whatever their childhood was and I think that probably from 28 on was when you really hit your rebel period I think you're like I'm gonna show you dad yeah potentially look I don't know there's also some things that I've thought about only in the last probably year and a half to be real I'm sorry I stopped right there I can't have such a serious conversation with you with this on like i feel like you're you're unpacking your heart here and your trauma and i'm looking like this let me take it off all right it has come off i'm probably gonna get some kind of a disease from it oh my god it's stripping why men have um oh feel better do you have another one that's a headband that's just oh yeah i've got

the hat one oh yeah i'll have that okay now that you've changed i've actually only kind of really started to unpack this in the last probably year and a half like I spent a lot of my 20s being quite resentful of anything to do with religion like it made me quite angry about some of the the things that I was told kind of came from religion that I've later found out don't necessarily I'm talking about things like the the gay marriage plebiscite and all that kind of thing where I was just angry about a lot of you know maybe what I missed out on or that kind of thing but it's only been in the last probably year and a half that I've actually realized that some of the values that I got from the church itself and from that type of upbringing are actually incredible. And it really has made

me shift gears on the way that I view religion in total. Like there was, there was a big part, probably almost a decade where I, I really pushed back on the establishment of religion and I still have issues with that, but I just thought it was also corrupt and it was all, you know, people trying to take money from vulnerable people and, and preach these messages and they didn't necessarily live up to them in their own lives and that kind of thing. And like, don't get me wrong. That exists. There will be, you know, circumstances where that exists in every single religion. It's not specific to, um, to the one I grew up with, but I, yeah, I've also come to realize that some of the values, particularly around community and like turning up

for people and having a village and being there to support each other, those types of values were probably more important to be brought up with than what, you know, doing Halloween arts and crafts. So like, I just want to kind of put that in as the counter. I don't want anyone who's listening to this who maybe even had a similar upbringing or they're putting that similar upbringing onto their children now to be like, well, hang on, you've only said the negative side of it. So I don't feel like I missed out on anything. And if anything, I think that some of those values have like kind of been cemented in me that have been really important as an adult. And, yeah, now I can dress up for Halloween as much as I want.

And I also got little Bonnie, my six-month-old Australian shepherd, a costume to wear. So cute. And I've got a little Halloween bag for us to take to the park for all of the treats for the dogs on Halloween. So do you think people are going to treat their dog at the park? Like are people going to – like what are you going to try and beg for dog treats?

Like what's the plan? I don't – to be fair. Like how is this going to go down? Well, the dog park that I've started going to now, most people have treats because they're training their dogs and that kind of thing. So I think we're just going to have like a lineup of dogs getting treats for the afternoon. Oh, my God.

I think you've got big expectations for what is going to happen at your local dog park. I got Bonnie a little pumpkin costume. It's very cute. So cute. I got Delilah one, but it was too small. You know, those ones from Timu that look. She was fat shamed by the vet. We've been working on that.

She's fat shamed by everyone. I'm sick of it. I'm sick of it. Let her live her best life. Let her eat her nachos with me. Hey, just this is so dumb. i almost almost fucking did the worst thing ever to my face accidentally so i love makeup beauty stuff whatever you know i like my skincare i like to like your skincare i love my guys you have

never seen a single human being as you walk into britney's bathroom there's no countertop it's just products like true but shut up you've never seen someone with as many skincare or hair care products in your life yeah I love a product I do and I think it's important to keep your skin on its toes so like sometimes I mix and match products anyway that's not what this is about I got a PR package so sometimes occasionally something will turn up at your house from a brand that has had your address for some other reason and it doesn't happen much anymore but I got this little package sent to me with a few different new beauty products to try like just little tidbits and some nail scissors and just like some little stuff but in there was a an

eyebrow brush oh yeah yeah and now I usually try to get my eyebrows laminated and waxed and like maintained but to be honest I probably do it a third of the time I'm supposed to so like I end up letting them grow out they are like woolly mammoths months go past and then I remember and then I go in anyway in it was a little eyebrow brush and the thing was like a brow shaper that was what it was called so it's like a razor or was it like a one of the spoolies that you used to brush them up well it was a spoolie it was a but I thought it was a spoolie sorry I'll shut up and let you finish the story it's called a shaper and so thank god it was a sunny day and now let me tell you why the sun is important I was like yes shaper brilliant I had

never seen an at-home razor blade so anyway I get this thing out I just didn't look at it I read the name got it out it's got like a long handle and so I picked it up and I was in my lounge room and my lounge room has like a beautiful big mirror right near the window and it gets it's the only place it gets natural light so like any video you've ever seen at my house is done in this one natural light corner otherwise I live in a dungeon and so it's not something you need to look in the mirror for and I only looked at the last minute so it's like slow motion I'm bringing the spool up to my eyebrow and I could have just walked around and done it and as I went to look in the mirror and it was just touching my in front of my eye the sun and this is why it's so important

the sun shone in and bounced off the razor blade into the mirror and like I could see the light and it was like it's like divine intervention it was like and just as the razor blade touched the corner of my eyebrow I realized what was happening and I stopped and now I've lost maybe two little hairs that is it but I Keisha nearly wiped my entire eyebrows off like what the fuck brow shaper brow shaper needs to be more specific it needs to be called brow razor blade it's a it was a razor blade like how did I not even see that did you not feel like the tension though yeah only when it touched me but it touched me at the exact same time like I could have taken my eyeball out Like, I came in real hot with that thing.

I was like, imagine if I was just walking around combing my brows. I want to defend you, but I kind of think I might be on the packaging of the product side for this. A shaper, though. Like, mmm. It was ambiguous. I feel like most people would probably read what it says on the box before they go in blind to use it.

But I just don't know if we should be sending razors around willy-nilly. That reminds me of – because I love a bit of a beauty DIY at home situation, mostly because I'm a tired ass, but also secondly, because I don't like the time it takes to get things done and like to drive to the appointments. I'm just a bit impatient and that's a, you know, personality flaw. But one time I dye, and I dye my eyebrows at home frequently, like probably every three weeks or so. You have offered to dye mine before. Where is this going? Yeah, but you got dark hair. When you're blonde, you've got to be really careful because sometimes it will say like

light brown on the packet. That she is not light brown. That is like one shade off of being jet black and it says on the packet to leave it on for like 10 minutes I leave mine on for 90 seconds and they're still quite dark so this the first time that I used this particular one that claimed it was light brown I ended up having absolute slugs of eyebrows for like two weeks I had to put foundation on them to try and like lighten them down it's so embarrassing he's giving um Cara Delevingne that's hot it was not hot they were too dark and too thick and also I I needed to learn to like less is more when it comes to dye. I really slapped it on thinking it wouldn't be sucked up by my skin

as much as it was. So it wasn't just the hair that was dyed. Oh, it was the skin? It was also the skin and the shape around them. It looked so bad. Please find a photo of that because you can't do anything about it either. You have to commit. You're like, well, these are just on for a while.

Yeah, I just had to try and use concealer. What would I have actually done? I know you have fake eyelashes. A stick-on brows, I think. You would have. Probably. I mean, we've got a stick on Merkins now, so maybe it's Kim Kardashian's next thing. It's like a stick on brow.

You just would have worn your wig the whole episode. Today, we're asking the question that Lily Allen has been asking. Is it just sex or is there emotion? Now, you guys might have seen Lily Allen has just dropped her seventh studio album. It's called West End Girl. But a bit of background on Lily Allen in case you haven't been following along the last couple of years. So Lily got married to David Harbour. Now David Harbour was an actor from Stranger Things. I think

that's what he's the most known for. That's the only thing I know him for. So in 2019, they got married. She moved to New York and they, by all accounts, you know, it looks like she got her happy ever after. But four years later, so just in December of 2024, so just December gone, it sort of came out quite explosively that they'd broken up and not just broken up, that he had cheated on her. And you'll remember, Keish, I think we even spoke about it here, but it wasn't just cheating. Lily kind of said she went on a bit of a detective mission on Raya, the dating app, to try and figure out who he was cheating with. Yeah. So this is because David and Lily actually initially met on Raya. And so apparently this is

like a source to the Daily Mail, but someone who was apparently close with Lily said that she was going onto the dating app. She like created a profile so that she could see what other women were on there and then she was cross-referencing it with who David was following on Instagram and trying to work out you know who he might have been seeing or who he might have been talking to from Raya and I know a lot of people would be like wow that's crazy but like I've been there before Lily and I actually know what it's like to be in the headspace of being like who possibly could be next like it's such an unhealthy place to be and that's even the thing like before we get into the wild ride that is this new album it's like an expose but even

just going back to that last year, it's insane that someone you love and that you're married to can make you feel so crazy to go and do that. Because so many people's first thought around that time was like, you know, okay, crazy lady, like get a life. But there's a reason a woman feels like they need to do that. Like there is something that is driving you to figure it out. And then once you get in it, it's really hard to get out of it. Like once you get into the trying to go through the phone or linking things or looking at their follow account, why is he liking this where is he where was he last night like it sends you insane and I think that in this new album I'm not sure if you guys have all listened to it or not but she's being very honest in it

there are things in here that I'm like wow I don't know if I would be able to admit in real time that that was my own behavior and I'm really I quite like the fact that she's going there like it is beyond vulnerable it is so completely honest when I was listening to this I kind of felt as though I was like reading someone's diary or listening and eavesdropping in on a conversation between two very close friends that I wasn't supposed to be listening to. It's exactly that, isn't it, Keisha? It's like her diary because the way she's written it is a story from the first song on the album until the end all the way,

tells a story from the start of their marriage and relationship when they got together through to the end. Yeah, and it's also been reported that she wrote and recorded this album in just 10 days. It's giving 10 days. It's giving I'm vomiting out every single emotion that I've ever had. It's giving I've made a fucking decision right now and I'm going to do it and I don't want to think about it.

And I might regret it later, so let's just do it now while I'm in this quite chaotic headspace. But we wanted to run through some of the songs that are on the album, some of the lyrics from them, so that we can talk about this. Is it just sex or is it emotion? So the album actually begins with Lily falling in love, moving to New York, as Britt said, with her two daughters and setting up a home in a nice little rental near a sweet little school.

But the first signs of trouble kind of began when she was cast in that West End play the lyrics go on to say that's when your demeanor started to change you said that I'd have to audition and I said that you're deranged yeah so she's basically saying like I'm Lily Allen like I interpreted it that way I interpreted it that this was kind of him almost like putting her down a little bit and making her a little bit smaller than perhaps what she was because she went on to be nominated for the plays that she was in like and by all accounts it sounds as though she was absolutely phenomenal so that was my interpretation of those lyrics well she goes on later in the album to sort of start to give

the goss on their sex life so there are lyrics in the third track sleepwalking been no romance since we wed why aren't we fucking baby yeah that's what you said but you let me think it was me in my head and nothing to do with them girls in your bed that's brilliant lyrics but she's pretty much been like you gaslit me when you were going to fuck someone else so she's she's 100 outed that he has been cheating and that becomes very apparent in the fourth track it is labeled tennis she speaks about this mysterious woman called madeline and the impact that that particular woman is having on their relationship the lyrics go and by the way the reason that we can't include all of this as the actual lyrics is because we don't want to get

done for copyright so that's why brit and i are reading them out the lyrics say i can't get my head around how you've been playing tennis if it was just sex i wouldn't be jealous you won't play with me and who the fuck is madeline okay i loved this one i love this you know why because this opens up a such a big conversation for people and women everywhere men as well but like let's be real just more women are going to relate to this story tennis she's upset that he's playing tennis now it's not that he's playing tennis but she's upset that the cheating has gone to something physical in the sporting arena not just physical what Lillian packs further on is that they very evidently had an open relationship they had an agreement and we know this because she speaks

about it in her diary entry that she's released to the world she speaks about the fact that they had these rules where it was supposed to be in a hotel room she said it's supposed to be paid I'm assuming it means you can have like escorted paid sex with someone that you don't know she says that they have to be a stranger she alludes to it being she's okay with an open relationship as long as it followed these very strict rules wasn't supposed to be anything emotional wasn't supposed to be anything in public and was supposed to be very discreet and so tennis is where she's upset because she knows he's physically going out and hanging out outside of those confined four walls he's doing things with her that a normal couple would do like i.e playing tennis so this

leads us to the million dollar question that is so different between men and women but what is worse the emotional cheating or the physical cheating obviously they're both bad but in this instance david's done both in the song after brit is talking about tennis it's called madeline lily sings how long has it been going on is it just sex or is there emotion he told me it would stay in hotel rooms never be out in the open why would i trust anything that comes out of his mouth and there has been a little bit more I guess reporting on the fact that Lily has come out and said that these stories that she's singing about they are not necessarily a hundred percent true like she said that some of it's fact and some of it is fiction and maybe this is a bit

of an amalgamation of her own experiences and other people's experiences which I think both of us think is a little bit murky and muddy water when it comes to saying things that seem this honest where there are real people involved but we'll get into that a little bit later some of the other lyrics there's this part of the song where it almost sounds as though it's like a back and forth of a conversation and she speaks it and so she is playing the character that we assume is based on her she's also playing the character that is based on this madeline girl and they almost have like a conversation back and forth lyrics from lily's side of things or the character that lily says she's playing is i'm not convinced that he didn't fuck you in our house we had an

arrangement be discreet and don't be blatant there had to be payment it had to be with strangers but you're not a stranger Madeline now then Madeline kind of responds in this and it has been reported that these are potentially actual real text message exchanges that happen between Lily and what has ended up being this woman called Nicole but we'll get on to that later so she replied with our relationship has only ever been about sex I can promise you that that this is not an emotional connection we don't speak outside of the time we spend together and whenever he talks about you it is with utmost respect I'd hate that you were in so much pain right now I really don't want to be the cause of any upset he told me that you were all aware that this was going on and that he had

your full consent if he's lying about that then please tell me because I have my own feelings about dishonesty lies are not something I want to get caught up with you can reach out to me at any time by the way if you need any more details or if you just want to vent or anything love and light madeline dude the last thing you want to hear from your husband's mistress is he speaks about you with so much respect well i don't know there's kind of two ways that i think you can interpret this because this woman who has you know been described as madeline in songs the real version of her hasn't the internet does what the internet does and they've ended up finding out who it supposedly is it's apparently a 34 year old costume designer named natalie tippett now she

worked on a film with david in 2021 it's called we have a ghost and so she's kind of been hounded by the press now and like a lot of people are like what's true and and she's basically gone on to say look i have a two and a half year old daughter this is really full-on having this much attention and from the message exchange that was in the song it kind of sounds as though he might have misled her into thinking that lily actually did know about their sexual relationship look by all accounts yes I'm going to assume that she went into it thinking she wasn't doing anything wrong a lot of people have an open relationship they did have an open relationship but it wasn't the kind of open relationship that David let her believe so I'm not blaming this woman at all I

just think the last thing you want to hear is someone saying you know when he was fucking me he did speak about you with respect and I know she means well by that but that must cut so deep I'm not blaming any of these women here I'm just I'm absolutely blaming David but it does open up and bring us back to this conversation and from the people that I've had this conversation with in my real life it very much differs if you're a male or a female and there are actually some stats around it but the way that different sexes look at emotional cheating and physical cheating which one hurts more and which one is seemingly worse is very very different and Lily is obviously evidently far more hurt by the fact that in their infidelity it was the fact that he was hanging out

with her and doing more than just sex. Like the sex is one thing, but having a connection with someone like that is so much worse. And I have to admit, I think I feel exactly the same. If my partner was cheating with a stranger and had sex right now, and I know we've had these conversations briefly before, and I know it doesn't sit right with everyone and everyone's different and that's okay. Hypothetically, if I found out my partner had cheated, had had sex with someone on a drunken night out didn't know who it was was so apologetic like I wouldn't even know how to find them no contact with them stranger and then I found out that my partner was going and hanging out with somebody and playing tennis and having coffee and having all these does the tennis particularly hit

you differently yeah my ex is a tennis player so if you fucking go and play with him no but it's it's like it is okay but it was Ben and I found out Ben was going and playing football and like hanging out and they were like wrestling on the grass and like having these moments and copies that's for me that's worse I'm like it's not just sex there's feelings and there's there's memories and experiences and you're creating these connections like that's so much worse for me yeah I feel exactly the same there's actually been quite a few studies done asking this exact question and none of them are like super robust studies but all of the results seem to kind of mirror each other so there was one study that found that about 60% of people think emotional

cheating is as bad or worse than physical cheating. But like you said, there did seem to be a little bit of a gender divide. So while everyone will kind of view infidelity differently and what constitutes an emotional affair, I think we all have kind of different lines in the sand. But on average, men reported feeling more distressed over physical infidelity. So there was a study published in the Journal of Evolution and Human Behavior where researchers asked college students to imagine their partner having sex with someone else or falling in love with someone else and a majority of men said that the physical betrayal would upset them more but in contrast women in those same studies most often said that it was the emotional betrayal so when a partner

would develop feelings for someone else rather than just having sex with them that they would find that to be more painful and so yeah based on these studies I kind of think that I fit into the the norm for women you know like I personally would find an emotional affair harder to kind of get over and I do wonder why that might be it might be because I think that there's more of an investment and I think that there's more time more consideration there's potentially like a longer period of that time that the betrayal's been happening as well whereas a physical infidelity can be a moment in time and I don't know I can't really work out why that doesn't feel as jarring for me it depends right I'm only talking about physical cheating if it was like a one-off with

someone you don't know of course it's bad if it's been someone that's been physically having an affair with for months or a year or whatever but that's also because that's when these two become entwined like the second you elongate a physical relationship you're going to come parts of the emotional relationship are going to come into it as well and a lot of these women in the study went on to say the reason that they're more upset by emotional infidelity is because they feel like it means their partner's already left the relationship anyway so I guess it's not just the fact that they've connected with someone it's the jarring pain of well they're not even here anymore like you're not in the relationship if you were connecting with someone else in there

you're go-to person and you know we love a poll Kish but I would love to poll you guys because every time we speak about cheating it is so divisive and of course it's divisive there are so many shades of gray in a relationship it depends on your situation what they've done who's done what, how long, are you okay with it? You know, there's no such thing as black and white cheating. And I, every time we speak about it, we get an army of people come and say they support what we've said. We get an army of people come and say like, absolutely not. How would you condone that? And that's so fine. Like we're not here to yuck anyone's yum and tell you how to run your relationship, but I don't think you can put a blanket statement on it. But I would love to know

just to see if we get the same results as these studies about like, if you're a woman, what is worse for you emotional cheating or physical cheating yeah I also the way that I kind of interpreted Lily's album to me it felt as though it was someone who initially had a set of guidelines and boundaries for their relationship that was eventually eroded and I think it would be pretty classic of a relationship between a narcissistic person and someone who was gradually having their self-esteem chipped away at now there is additional context to this I read that you know Lily had written about in her memoir that in her previous marriage she actually had cheated on her husband with female sex workers and so in that was also you know coincided with her journey with to do

with drugs and alcohol and she's been sober for five years now so to me I kind of read the album that she initially went into the marriage with a certain set of like this is what we agree to and then over time those things seemed to kind of get further and further away from what she wanted I could be projecting but that was how I felt about a lot of the things that she was saying in this relationship I was like oh I remember being with a narcissistic person and I remember thinking that I would never do those things and then six months down the track you end up kind of going like what the fuck am I doing I'm looking up people's Instagram accounts to see if he's followed them and whether they may be sleeping together right now like to me that was how I kind

of felt about her relationship but the last question i have for you brit has to do with like i know we ask the question a lot of like who gets to tell a story but i do find it a little bit concerning that lily has kind of come out and said like oh this isn't necessarily completely a true story about my own relationship when the people who are involved are so easily identifiable and it's pretty damning well she said look she said it's a bit of fact and a bit of fiction sprinkled in and she hasn't really definitively said which is what and what is which she has also said that it is inspired by her life i agree with you as much as i'm like fucking right at dawn lily like i love it i love that she is taking control of her story and he's like fuck you

the problem i have and where i think it gets really dangerous is if you're sprinkling a lot of mistruths in there alongside some pretty explosive truths it's not ideal for the people involved because we know what a public pile on can be like and if somebody hasn't done something but they're being led to believe the public's been led to believe they have I just don't think that that is a very fair place to put them because who are we to then say what's real and what's not in this story in this very long sad diary entry I uh I also think it's interesting that I was reading quite a few of the comments on her Instagram page and most of them were like along the lines of what an amazing day for everyone except for David Harbour or like it would all

be like all of this except for David Harbour or I've never hated a man that I didn't know in the way that I hate David Harbour. He has turned off comments on every single one of his Instagram posts. I'd be turning off my Instagram. He has like 8 million followers. Like he's actually objectively a bigger star than what she is. So I guess in a way she probably feels as though it's punching up rather than punching down. But yeah, like the only kind of problem, I firstly I loved the fact that this to me it sounded so nostalgic like it sounded like Lily Allen from two decades ago and the music that I love from her but there was a little bit of gray for me in the fact that these people are real people and if if you're not going to be explicit

about what is factual and what is a personal experience versus what is just like creative license I feel like that's a little bit dangerous you can just like label the song like Madeline truth tennis fake but her name is actually nicole yeah um you know the last thing i want to say is and it's i feel like because i've been there is i do feel for the other woman quote unquote if by all accounts what she's saying is true which i do i believe that it's true i have no doubt that she truly believed it was just sex and they were in an open relationship and lily was cool with it we have to take it at face value take it at face value in the song that you know she's exchanged their texts and whatever. That's what they've said has happened. The feeling of

when you find that out of being the other woman and having ruined a relationship unintentionally is still the worst feeling. And I say that because I was the other woman for years, but I didn't know it. And I was, we were in an open relationship as well, but I didn't know that either. I didn't know either of those things. If you knew the podcast briefly, but you will remember I dated somebody for a few years two years and I thought they were my person and it came out that they had this whole double life it was not an open relationship we had plans to marry and have kids and buy our houses and you know do all these wonderful things and then I found out that he was in another relationship the whole time but not only the whole time I had been with him

for about two years and she had been with him for six years so I was the other woman I came in after they had been together for four years and I had no idea like I thought I'd met my penguin and I'll never forget the pain was interchangeable I couldn't figure out what was hurting more the pain that I felt of what I had imagined or what I had known or been led to believe was one thing that your relationship has ended in like this horrific way and that he had cheated on me but then when I realized it wasn't just cheating on me but I was that person for someone else so like I was the one that had ruined a six-year relationship and whilst I didn't know it that pain for me it was like a pendulum like I would just feel so sorry for myself and be like

I can't believe he's done this to me woe is me and then I'd be like hang on a fucking second imagine this times three because she's been with him for six years like that's so much and I remember having to say to her and I'm so glad she believed me and that's why I want to give this woman the benefit of the doubt I remember just saying to her like I feel like I can't even I'm not allowed yeah to feel what I'm feeling because you're feeling it so much worse and you're you're like the main woman like and I kept saying the main woman and she was so wonderful she was like you can feel it too because you had your own life she was really good but that may be why I'm giving her a little bit of grace in this situation it's because I was like fuck I've been

there and it just adds more spice. Maybe you've actually kind of just like discovered why women seem to feel more hurt by emotional affairs though. Maybe it's actually because when you have an emotional connection with someone, you have future plans. Like you have the things that you're talking about that you are going to connect on in the future as well. It's not necessarily just a past experience. Like maybe that's actually why we struggle so much with the concept of our partner falling in love with someone else rather than just sleeping with them. And you know what it is now we just are sitting in this it's the feeling like you had something special and unique and a shared experience and then realizing you didn't and i say that because there were things

like he and i had discussed our kids names and then when her and i discovered this the other woman they had the same kids names picked out everything was identical it would make you feel so insignificant oh you're like oh i remember saying to him was any of it real i remember saying, did you actually love me? And for some reason, that was the question that all I wanted him to say was yes. And I wanted him to say yes, because I wanted to feel like it wasn't a complete waste of time. And even though his love, his idea of love is so disturbed and so cooked in that moment, I was like, just give me one semblance that the last two years had something real in it. But that's why, because all of a sudden all of our shared experiences were taken and they weren't

mine anymore they were with another woman and i'm going to assume now we've just unpacked it without meaning to that's why emotional is worse it could be and actually one of her last songs on the album these are some of the lyrics and this is what we'll kind of end with she said don't come home i don't want you in my bed go to the apartment in the west village instead i found a shoebox full of handwritten letters from broken-hearted women wishing you could have been better hundreds of trojans you're so fucking broken how'd i get caught up in your double life well it is time for accidentally unfiltered this might go down all right for some people but obviously not for her okay so my mum bought me some fake sunflowers i told her i had no idea

where i'd put them but i loved them so i'll put them somewhere special and send her a photo to let her know so i found a spot in the bathroom and took the picture sent them on and said how much i love them i was about to fall asleep when i had that moment you know where something just hits you and you have a memory. And I remembered I had left my giant dildo drying on the bath rack right next to the sunflowers. I had sent it to her. I had sent her a picture of my giant dick and flowers. She simply replied, nice flowers, sweetheart. I love that your mom didn't address the fact that it was actually something else in the picture and she was just like, we're both going to pretend that this hasn't happened.

I don't know what I'd prefer. I don't know if I'd prefer just to pretend that it didn't happen. I'd probably write back to my mum and just say, well, whoops, delete that. Just crop it for yourself. You know how some people, when you receive a photo, it will automatically save to your camera roll? Yeah. I think you'd have to go in and say, please, just if you're one of those people,

please crop. All right, let's wrap. Suck and sweet, Kish. My suck this week is that actually it's probably a suck from the past nearly three months. so and I might have spoken about this here and there on the podcast but I really have been so unwell like so unbelievably unwell and I actually ended up editing an episode that we recorded in August and in that episode I had to stop down and cough a lot and so I know that I've had this

really horrible cough for at least like two and a half to three months now and yeah anyway this is like such a classic if you're with someone in the medical profession you will relate to this so much because for weeks my partner had been away for work here and there like he's been back and forth quite a lot and so I'd been saying to him like this coffee's really bad it's really bad it's really bad and this whole time he'd been like you're right you're right you'll be fine like it's just a cough you know it's just a post-viral cough you'll be sweet and I eventually saw him after about three weeks and he put a stethoscope on my back he turned and he's like uh yeah we need to go to the pharmacy and I was like oh okay you know and he was like I you've actually gotten

I think you sound like you've got pneumonia and you were like actually relieved you were like yes it's like I feel like you've been gaslighting me for three weeks anyway so I was on antibiotics for a couple of weeks and things got a little bit better and they've kind of seemingly returned to being quite bad again so we think that I might actually have whooping cough and come to think of it I think that I have let my uh vaccine lapse you know how you're supposed to get it every five years. I'm pretty sure I got it like six or seven years ago and I just wasn't really thinking about it. And so I guess this is the result of when you don't have it. And so, yeah, we now think that I've had a whooping cough and this cough just, it won't go away. They call it like the hundred day

cough and it's been, yeah, it's been awful. I'm going to get my booster tomorrow, actually. I wonder if I can get the booster now or if I'm going to have the antibodies. Do not touch it right now though. You've just been on my deathbed. So that is my overarching suck. And my sweet is that over the weekend, I got to catch up with some friends. So when I was living in Bendigo, I made really close friends with two girls that lived down there and they were just like, they were really my life raft over that COVID period where we were in the horrendous Victorian lockdowns and we became really close really quickly. And I hadn't seen her for like two and a bit years since her wedding and her and her

husband came up and they stayed with me over the weekend. And you know, when you just have that beautiful feeling of catching up with old friends that you haven't seen for ages, but it also feels as though no time has passed at all, that I had that feeling for the whole weekend. So, yeah, that was a real nice sweet. Oh, that's so cute. Yeah. Okay, my suck is I – okay, it was one of Laura's earrings,

I'll just say it. I dropped an earring down the drain. Oh, no. Yeah, and it was one of Laura's earrings. But she might not listen to this. Let's not – Look, I just – Bruce going into Tony May just being like,

can I please have a replacement? I know the girl, so I'm going to ask – I'll hit her up for another one. Yeah. Wait, which drain did it go down? It just, a drain at my home, but I can't, I tried to get it off. It's tight. I, it's not, I can't get a plumber to come and undo it. I'll come and help.

I've done this before. Have you got like an S-bend drain? Yeah, it's got an S. Oh, mate, I'm DIY central. I'll come over with my steel caps on. Just, I won't need steel caps. Mate, you don't even mow the lawn with your steel caps. I put, I did put them on to mow the lawn over the week.

um my sweet is that I have managed to secure Oasis tickets and yes Keisha you can come with me are you joking I know they're so hard to get yeah actually we got a good ticket my partner's gonna faint when he hears yeah so Oasis is here Oasis like if you guys are a bit younger listening you probably don't care interestingly connected to Lily Allen she did come out and say that that thing that happened on a plane with, I think it was Liam, please don't quote me, it might have been Noel, but they definitely hooked up when they shouldn't have been. She found out later that he was actually still married. Yeah.

I mean, they were like at one point one of the biggest bands in the world and they were, I think they could have had any woman they wanted to. I think they went through a phase of being very desirable and they hate each other. Well, they're back because they got paid a Mozart. So they're brothers. They had a big falling out, if you don't know, hated each other. No one really knows what or why, but no one gives a fuck. They're back together for a tour.

They're obviously being paid a Mozart and everyone's like, whatever, we'll pretend you guys like each other just to go. But I'm absolutely thrilled. So we got tickets for next week. That is super exciting. I have some friends that went to the concert in the UK and they just said it was like otherworldly, like once in a lifetime type situation.

I was about to say I also have friends in the UK, but it's not. It was Vogue Williams and I just listened to her podcast. Vogue Williams, that's the parasocial relationship we have. So Vogue went and said it was amazing. Yeah. She didn't tell me that. She just said it on the phone. She did tell you.

Your friend made millions. She basically told me. Well, that is it from us today, guys. I would love to know what you thought about particularly the chat about Lily Allen and like who firstly has the right to kind of talk about these experiences, whether it helps you or whether you think it's going to be a little bit detrimental to her moving forward and what you think about emotional versus physical cheating.

Well, I feel like the question, the big question here is we didn't even say it so I'll tag it on now. Is this revenge or is this therapeutic for her, you know? that it's maybe a bit of A, a bit of B. Maybe the same thing. Maybe revenge is therapeutic. Anyway, go watch on YouTube. You'll see our costumes.

Mine was 10 out of 10. You made a lot of effort. I did put a lot of effort in. Hit subscribe on YouTube. That's definitely something we really want you guys to get behind. It helps us out a lot with the podcast. So we'd really appreciate it. And remember, say mum, say dad, say dog, tell your friends

and share the love because we love love. We'll be right back.