Life Uncut - Living in Fear: The Reality of Stalking

Episode Date: July 30, 2024

In today’s eye-opening episode, we bring you the harrowing story of a woman who has endured relentless and ongoing stalking. To protect ourselves, we made the decision to keep our guest’s name anonymous as the further we got into this chat it became apparent just how dangerous the man stalking her is.  For her, the stalking began years ago and despite every effort she has made with police internationally, she has not been able to have the perpetrator convicted.  In this episode, we discuss:  The reality of being a victim of stalking Self-gaslighting and doubt: how women often question whether the threat they face is severe enough to involve the police. Ongoing stalking & this continuous ordeal with a persistent and dangerous stalker. Ignored evidence: despite having substantial proof of harassment and stalking behaviour, law enforcement's response has been disappointingly inadequate. The emotional and psychological toll of living under constant surveillance by a stalker. Why the police often fail to take stalking cases seriously and the systemic issues contributing to this neglect. What needs to change with international stalking and harassment laws You can watch us on Youtube Find us on Instagram Join us on tiktok Or join the Facebook Discussion Group Tell your mum, tell your dad, tell your dog, tell your friend and share the love because WE LOVE LOVE! xxSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Life Uncut acknowledges the traditional custodians of country whose lands were never ceded. We pay our respects to their elders past and present. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. This episode was recorded on Cammeraygal land. Hi guys and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Laura. I'm Brittany. Now we have, I mean, it is a very full on episode for you today and it is very different to how we normally do these interviews. And the reason for that is because the identity of the person that we are interviewing, we have made the hard decision after many conversations to keep her

anonymous. We're talking about stalking on this episode and we are sharing with you a very real story about a woman who has been stalked and the stalking is ongoing. It has crossed continents. It has crossed jurisdictions and her stalker has even boarded a plane and flown to the country of which she is residing. Now, the reason that we decided to keep her identity anonymous is not just for her own safety, but also for the safety of us. The further that we got into this chat, it became incredibly apparent how dangerous the man is who is at the bottom of this stalking. It's not just base level stalking. This is death threats, kidnap threats. The harassment is next level, which is why it's so incredulous that he could be saying that he wants to kidnap her and

murder her and still the police are doing nothing about it. And it was made apparent in the chat that he has gone on to harass and stalk other people that have been in her life or that have been involved in the case, which is why after the fact, as a team, we made the decision to keep her anonymous because we didn't want to invite that involvement if we didn't have to, but we still thought the story was so important to share. Yeah. And I mean, we've spoken a little bit about stalking. I mean, we've done another episode on stalking recently, but something that has and will always be at the forefront of our conversations is around male violence towards women. And that at its very basis is this, and the person that we're speaking to, she has been

so fundamentally failed by the legal systems across multiple countries. And it's almost as though because this has not happened in the one place, it's happened across different countries, that no one wants to take accountability for it. It shows the massive gaps that can happen and also the way in which being a victim of this type of stalking impacts and erodes your sense of self and your life. We speak about so many things in this interview, self-gaslighting and doubt, how women often question whether the threats of stalking are real or not real. This almost like sense of not believing yourself and how that erosion happens. And also like the emotional and psychological toll of living under constant surveillance

by a stalker. I could not imagine what it is like to feel like at any time you are being watched in your own home, on holiday, down the street, at your gym, to feel like you absolutely cannot live your life because you are in so much fear that you are going to be literally murdered yeah I just can't fathom and then on top of that when you know how much evidence you have like she has collated years of evidence she's presented those years of evidence to the police and still nothing is done the feeling of complete loss I just can't imagine what she's going through and this is why we thought it was so important to share the story I remember when you first posted your video and

we discussed at the time, because I reached out to you. I don't know if you remember this. I reached out to you and I was like, fuck, we need to talk about this on the podcast because this is so crazy. Not just crazy from like an unbelievable perspective, but also from the lack of support and the lack of any sort of repercussions for this man who was stalking you at the time. And then we had some really serious conversations here because it's so difficult to talk to women about stalking, especially when you have a big platform, because you also don't want to turn the attention on yourself. You don't want to make someone who's actually a perpetrator of such a scary crime to even know that you exist. So I can only imagine

that this is something that you've experienced as well when you're trying to get your story out there. So many people are a little bit like, oh, I don't know how to even navigate giving the platform to the conversation. Definitely. And it's such an odd threshold of finding that line where it's it's worth it to go public and that's what I did for so long as I didn't share publicly about what was happening thinking it would make things worse it could aggravate him and it got to a point where it was very clear that you know nothing was going to be done and you know at that point been forced off the island and my life was nothing like I wanted it to be so going public was sort of my last resort it was I just figured why not and it eventually did help I think like

I wouldn't have gotten the attention from the police I wouldn't have gotten attention from authorities I wouldn't have gotten the support or the influx of resources from people if I hadn't gotten public but then on the other side of that is there's some you know questions I have to be careful about you know what I say on this podcast because if I say it in the wrong way I say the wrong thing then that'll be another reason for them to throw out my case so it's like you're just navigating a minefield at all times and it's totally crazy it is can you take us back to when this started what was going on in your life how did he even find you in the first place it started in middle of 2022 he reached out to me on instagram as you know people do and it was a weird message

got maybe borderline a little odd uncomfortable so I blocked him which is usually what I do when messages get that way and nothing ever happens but then he found my email he thought my work email which was connected you know to my website and my social media and stuff like that so he started sending me emails pretty incessantly on gmail i tried to block those emails and learned that there's no way to like actually block an email on gmail when you block something on gmail it just gets kind of filtered to your spam folder and i always have to go through my spam builder anyway because things end up in there that shouldn't so i would still have to manually go through my spam builder, see all his emails, see the subject lines. I would open a few of them here and there

just to kind of keep a tab on what was going on. But that started, yeah, middle of 2022. So when you said he initially started in your DMs and you just blocked him, had you ever responded and had that connection with him? Like, were you, do you try and go through your DMs and write back to people that had written to you or had you never, ever written back to anything that he had said? I've never written to him I usually respond to people you know they ask questions or they comment on things but I never responded to him I think his messages were just odd and I just ignored them and it was pretty immediate that I blocked him I never responded I never responded

to his emails and what were those emails and the subject lines like the ones that you saw and you I mean because it's so hard it's it's often given to people as advice on social media oh just block them I'll just delete it but the thing is you still see the stuff that they've written in the first place, it still affects you. Yeah. And if there's not really an effective way to block it, and we know on social media, like with Instagram, I blocked his known accounts that he contacted me from, but I know he has many other accounts because he sends me still to this day, screenshots of my stories and my posts. So I know he's still watching me and I have no idea where from. So you can't really effectively block people if they can just keep making new social medias.

you can't block gmail i tried reaching out to instagram i tried reaching out to gmail to get help to report abuse there's nothing there's nobody that responded and the subject lines i couldn't even really repeat them because they were really incoherent i have background in psychology i studied psychology and i can you know tell that this person wasn't in the right mind you know they're really incoherent messages like incoherent sentences stuff that suggests that he's having some delusions he thinks that my messages are talking to him secretly i posted a photo of a sunset in my stories and he thought it was me telling him I wanted him to be with me or you know he once mentioned that he he was following all my friends as well and he saw my

best friend at the gym post a story at the gym and she used a song in her Instagram story and he was convinced that that's the lyrics of that song were a secret message from me through my friend to get to him to tell him about you know my love for him so it was just really incoherent really bizarre so does he believe that he's it's almost like this parasocial relationship but does he truly believe that you two are in a relationship I think so that's what his messages suggest and like as this has been going on for almost two years it fluctuates so they'll sometimes think we're in a relationship sometimes they'll think we're in a fight sometimes they'll think you know what happens when people have these delusions is like their minds are constantly trying to

take input from their surroundings and make it make sense in their way and so it's kind of constantly changing but he has sent many messages that suggest that he thinks that we are in a relationship that I'm in love with him that I want to be with him even though I've never exchanged a word with him when was the tipping point because when you released that video back in 2022 what was the tipping point from when things move from being something that you could handle to being something very very scary you know this isn't something I've actually talked about publicly regarding this issue but I've had a situation like this with another man many years ago someone who was I think schizophrenic diagnosed and stalked me for many years like I still probably will

randomly go on my Facebook and see hundreds of messages from this person and I just know and I didn't do anything with that situation because you know I spoke to my dad about it and we talked about reporting it to the police we contacted his family who said they wanted nothing to do with it but we were really scared that aggravating him you know contacting the police would do nothing. And then aggravating him would be even worse. So I've done nothing. But the reason that I decided to take this more seriously this time is because I started seeing emails from the stalker that he wanted to come to Bali. And he wrote one particular email where he talked about finding me coming here and kidnapping me and use the word kidnapping. And he said, he'll do,

you know, I think in that same email, whatever it takes to find me and to be with me. So something in my gut just saying, I remember sending it to my parents and sending it to my friend and saying, I freaked out. Am I overreacting? Am I being dramatic? But I feel really nervous. And he continued to send these messages about kidnapping over the next month or two. He started talking about quitting his job, coming to Bali. And then eventually he sent me a screenshot of a one-way ticket to Bali. So in addition to that, he had been sending me emails with a link to a Google drive in it and I had never opened that link because why would I and I decided in that moment to open the link and I opened it and there was like dozens of videos he'd been recording over

the last six months and sending to me of himself talking to the camera talking about kidnapping me really graphic like sexual violence detail like what he was going to do to me and he thought it was romantic I guess I don't know but it was you know violent and horrible and starting all the videos with like this is the Spartan Queen kidnapping show like that was his thing it was like this whole storyline he created about kidnapping me that was when it became a lot more than just you know annoying I can't imagine I feel sick in my stomach what that must be like for you to open and realize that this is this is real and this is happening and this is serious but it is absolutely wild to me as women that we can have someone write to us and say I'm coming

to kidnap you and our immediate thought is am I overreacting like should I should I tell anyone about this like that is crazy that we are in a position where we feel like still someone has directly threatened our well-being and our safety and we still don't know if we can go to anyone so this is the stage you went to the police yes the levels of gaslighting that we put ourselves through and thank god I had a friend at the time and I told her this I still have a text message I was like I'm really worried I'm being super dramatic and it's going to be embarrassing and she said it's way better to be dramatic and embarrassed than kidnapped and dead so it's a toss-up but even when i did start telling my friends hey i'm freaked out this guy even when

he showed up in bali i had friends that said that's not a real flight ticket that looks like it's you know photoshopped or he's not really here okay when we found out he was actually here oh he's not you're fine you're fine wow i do think once people actually saw him in my neighborhood they admitted okay this might be serious but until then i had friends that were telling me like you're overreacting, like, just chill out, just calm down. And this is something I've heard from so many women who have experienced stalking in their lives is they gaslight themselves into thinking, what if I'm making a mistake? Do I want to ruin this person's life? What if I'm, you know, making a fool of myself? What if I'm being dramatic? What if I'm overthinking?

And then we have people around us that reiterate that dialogue, you know, that narrative, you have the police telling you that you have your friends or your boss or your partner telling you that, then like, you don't want to be the one that's crying wolf. It's so hard when you're someone who's income and you make a living from working online as well. And part of that is being able to post about your life when this is all happening. And you found out that he was in Bali, what happened next and how did this impact you? So I did completely go off social media, which like you said, is my livelihood. It's my marketing platform for other offers that I have as well and I enjoy it but you know that aside I went on social media I went to the police in

Indonesia I called the police in the UK and the United States I went to the embassies UK and the US embassies in Indonesia I stayed home and started wearing a disguise when I left my house I drive a bike so it's easy to see my face so I wear sort of like helmet and like cover my face and I reported to some of like, you know, the community that I know, like the cafes I go to all the time and my gym that I go to all the time who were amazing. And they were like, we have his photo. If he comes by, we'll not let him in and we'll let you know. But even going to the gym, I was worried he could be waiting outside. He knows my gym. The world knows my gym. He could watch me. He could find me. He could wait there and hide and wait till I came in. So I stopped going to the gym. I started

worrying that he could even trace me back home so I went to a hotel I moved into a hotel and I think it was like the first night in that hotel I was lying there trying to relax like I took a bath I laid in bed and I was just like windows and doors glass walls in this room and I was just convinced that he was watching me outside like he I had visuals of him just like standing out there watching me waiting for me to fall asleep he was gonna find a way to get in he was gonna do you know in those videos that i watched that he sent to me in that google drive he talked like about tying me up you know beating me tying me up in his villa raping me finding someone else that he could rape and make me watch and i had a panic attack that night like in the hotel room thinking

i i'm not safe and then eventually i moved into a friend's house this is the insidious nature of stalking is that even when you may not be being followed even when you're not being watched necessarily you think you are. You can never trust what's happening around you because your sense of reality has been so destabilized that you are constantly in this fight or flight fear that just doesn't leave you. It infiltrates your entire life. Everything from the minute you wake up to the minute you go to bed. People talk about the long-term effects of stalking and how it completely erodes your sense of self and your ability to do anything around a semblance of normal life because you just don't know. You just don't know what's happening and who's watching you.

so so frightening and it's horrible that you know that there's still this kind of like narrative that people say where it's like well unless he hurts you then you can't do anything about it in what sense is this not hurtful is damaging and this is why we do have stalking laws in most countries honestly in most developed countries also in indonesia we do have stalking laws we do recognize that this in itself is a crime because it's harmful even if that person never follows through on their threats even if they never put their hands on you even if you know they never touch you like it it has so much psychological harm because you do never know you have to be constantly vigilant and then if you're not constantly vigilant and it's also your

fault for not being constantly vigilant and taking care of yourself but also the intent to kidnap and rape beat harm that should be enough like he has said i'm coming to do this then i have bought the flight and I'm there, he has been seen in your neighborhood. You did mention that he had been seen in your neighborhood. What were the circumstances around that? Have you ever physically seen him anywhere or is it like your friends, family cafes that said, Hey, he's around? Yeah. So I did not want to see him at all. I didn't want to see him. I was really, really scared of seeing him. Not because, not, not because, you know, if it was the middle of day and I was with people I wasn't exactly concerned about my physical safety in that sense

but I was concerned about two things one being I didn't know what it would do to me psychologically to see this man in real life to see his face and two I didn't know what it would do to him psychologically to finally see me in the flesh so all of that I just I wanted to stay away but he was posting stories on his social media about where he was in Bali and I had friends that didn't believe that he was actually here but they wanted to look out for me and so they would drive by those cafes and sure enough they saw him and then would continuously see him at the places I would go or in my neighborhood. When you went to the police what did they do and what did they offer you? When I went to the police I brought an interpreter with me which I had to I brought

public figure with me which was supposed to be helpful here in Indonesia and I was at the police station for maybe eight hours. And eventually there was a conversation with the entire team and the police chief, which seems to be really productive. But leading up to that was really challenging. I was funneled around with a lot of different people. They didn't quite grasp what was happening. They thought I had an ex-boyfriend that just wanted to be with me. I had police officers that thought it was kind of charming. Oh, he's just in love with you. You're just a pretty girl like you can't blame him he's just trying it just seemed like there really wasn't an understanding of what was actually going on eventually I was able to get in a room with some

police officers and played the videos which I didn't want to do but I wanted to leave the room eventually they eventually let me leave the room I didn't want to sit there and so it seemed like that was going to be helpful but days went on after that eventually I was sent to the hospital for psychological testing to prove that I was actually scared and not lying. And that was at my own expense. So I had to pay and go to the hospital and pay for a psychological screening, which took a couple of hours. And then nothing happened. I mean, he was still out and about. He was moving around my neighborhood. He moved to another island and came back and was free. What happened when you went public with this information, with the video?

yeah so I decided to leave Bali when I realized that he wasn't going to be arrested or deported and was free roaming I had panic attacks and I couldn't leave the house and it was just a horrible way to live I couldn't keep going like that so I decided I wanted to go public but I didn't feel like I could do it while I was in close proximity so I left and went to a small village in Laos where I thought like no one would think to follow me then when I was there I decided to go public it was kind of a last-ditch effort I realized if I didn't do anything things would just continue as they were which was him obsessing over me for who knows how many years in my neighborhood so it was my last attempt to kind of go public I wanted to share about my story I also

wanted to illuminate this issue on a greater scale figuring I probably wasn't the only one that had experienced something like this. And to sort of just call out the like systemic and social injustices that allow these things to continue and happen where I felt like I couldn't get any help. I remember this period because I, and I think as most people who saw that video that you posted, then obviously went looking to see who this man was, who was this man that was inflicting all of this on you. And he had a public Instagram at the time. I don't know if he still does, that he was posting stories. He was posting stories and responses to your video claiming that it was completely made up, that he was there on holidays. It was scary to see that he was able to

be platformed in a way to show his side of something, especially when you have had to leave the country of which you're living in order to get away from him. How did that situation progress? Once you'd been public, he knew that that information was available to everybody, despite the fact that he was denying it what happened after this did he stay in Bali did he leave and I actually didn't like direct people to him I didn't use his name in that video I didn't link to his account no but internet people are so good at people yeah and people found out and I think it was in the comment section or something and then that's kind of how I think he had obviously reacted and people had linked it together but I remember at the time I went down

the rabbit hole because it was, it was a truly unbelievable situation that was playing out on social media. And, and also, I guess, you know, from us and from our perspective, like we're so grateful to be able to have this conversation with you now around everything that happened, but it's so hard when you're working in media to kind of wade through what's the truth and what's not the truth when you have two people online saying different versions of a story. Yeah, fair enough. And I have to say, like, I think my case is a really shocking example of how a case, like you said, this should be enough. If I have videos of him saying what he's going to do to me should be enough and being a very extreme one of stalking with fear of violence. That is

what the terminology is for this crime and so much evidence to support me. So yes, he was saying that he was on holiday and I was making it up, but he was also sharing screenshots of the emails he'd sent me over the last year. He was also sharing some of the videos that he sent me. I mean, he's posted screenshots of like dozens and dozens and dozens of emails that he'd sent me over the course of a couple of days to his social media. One of which he shared on his stories says an email to me, which he said, I'm stalking you. And then like you said, that should be enough, right? It should be enough when someone's making a public confession of doing what they you said they were doing but I think what's hard is and this is why so many women don't come forward

is because the immediate response immediate reaction is this can't be true this is not believable there's so many ways that she could have made this happen to her maybe she caused it maybe she's lying and you have to be able to somehow prove your side of the story and I was fortunate enough to have had hundreds of emails dozens of videos that he recorded of his face threatening me and i don't mean this in a really insensitive way but his mental illness made it so that he wasn't able to hold any lie that was believable as soon as someone started actually digging as soon as someone's actually started looking at what he was sharing and his explanations of things it made no sense it was extremely delusional right he would say

that i did i was telling him i wanted him to be here it was just totally incoherent and then he was sharing like his confession like screenshots of the things he'd done he'd sent to me like contradicting himself consistently yeah and so I think it became obvious really immediately to most people that this guy is mentally ill and clearly he actually is stalking her because he's showing us what he sent to her so that was really you know fortunate for my case although it's still two years later and he's free there's no charges that have been pressed so have you gone to the policing other countries like did you go to the american police yeah and is it the same response as the indonesian police the american police wanted nothing to do with it the least helpful

and i understand there's like jurisdictional issues like he's not in america he's not american he's a uk citizen the uk police eventually did you know pay attention they got funneled between so many different police officers while i was in the house like i would talk with a police officer then a couple days later be transferred to a new department or a new play a new precinct and i'd have to start all over eventually they did some investigation and when he finally was sort of pushed out of Bali because the community did not welcome him and flew back to the UK he was arrested as soon as he got to the UK which felt like a relief for a moment but I think within a day he was released on bail there were some conditions on bail which I thought would be plenty and charges

would be pressed quickly because it was so black and white it was so obvious I have videos that he sent me i have hundreds of emails and it's two years later and there's been no charges have been pressed i probably have my case moved through a dozen different like new police officers every time it feels like starting over you have no idea what you're gonna get with these people yeah so two years later nothing's been done imagine how hard it is for someone whose stock is eloquent and charming and really successful and people want to believe him it's easy for me for people to believe me because of the nature of his mental illness. But that's not true for everybody. There's so many people who are just, it's my word against this guy, who might have way

more money, way more power, way more charm. I think also on that, though, the nature of mental illness, sometimes it's used as an excuse. It's like we go, okay, well, look, you know, he's obviously not of sound mind. You know, he's not going to do those things, but he's just not well, especially if the police or people in authority deem him as being problematic in the things he says, but not actually being harmful. You know, he's not, he's not actually going to follow through with that stuff. It's so dismissive. Yeah. And I find myself like another level of gaslighting I've done is like, and I, you know, I have so much compassion for people with mental illness. It's something I never have to think about when I wake up in the morning, like in my

perceiving reality or not. And I too question the culpability of somebody that is suffering from delusions like i i don't i don't know what my life would be like if i had the same illness so in terms of even culpability like i agree i don't want him to be beat up i don't want him even necessarily i don't know i don't know to be in a prison you want to be safe that's it yes but that doesn't mean that these people whether or not they're culpable in the sense that we know it legally it doesn't mean that they're safe it doesn't mean that other people are safe with them being free and so there need to be systems that are set up to identify these people put them somewhere where other people are not subjected to and women are not like martyred

in order to just like give them the benefit of the doubt and our bodies aren't kept unsafe just because we're not sure because i mean he's threatening violence and he's and he's following through on his actions that was the thing is he threatened these things but then the stopping threats once he boarded a flight and came to bali to find me and this is why it's so frustrating we've been having this conversation surrounding this for years and it's the language that's used is, but he was such a great person. We didn't see it coming. Like we didn't see it coming. So this is an excuse we're giving people, right? We didn't know it was coming. There's nothing we could have done. But now we're talking about something where it's like, there is a man that

has said, I'm coming for you. I am going to kidnap you. I'm going to rape you. I'm going to inflict violence upon you. Like, and then he has boarded the flight with the intent. He's in your neighborhood and we're still saying there's nothing we can do. Like we can't use that excuse anymore that we did not was going to come he's like i've told you yeah i've told the world i'm coming for you and then what we're still supposed to sit back and what are you supposed to do we have laws for that reason we have stalking laws like we're acting like we we actually don't have any systems in place to deal with these kinds of incidents or these people but we do we have stalking laws that make this kind of actions this kind of conduct this behavior illegal and

punishable by prison sentences long ones 10 20 years so why are we not actually enforcing these laws. That's really the question. We have the laws. Why are they not being enforced? Why are there no avenues for help that women can access when they have all of these things happening to them? Evidence. Why are we not enforcing these laws? How did this impact you ongoing? I mean, after he left Bali and these legal processes, you're back in Bali now. You do still have a life that is on social media in terms of like being able to use that from a business perspective, as you should, but how has it impacted your ability to do that in a way that makes you feel safe? Yeah. Um, I mean, for a while I was just always moving. So last year I spent most of my

year traveling around Africa, mostly Africa, Africa and West Asia and Central Asia. And I mean, my thought process in that is like, he's not going to go find me in Yemen. He's not going to go find me in Bhutan good luck trying and so it was kind of like as long as I kept moving and I was going to unusual places I wasn't going to London or Western Europe or places that were really easy for him to get to and I wasn't staying in one place for a long time it would be really hard for him to track me I don't post real time so it would have been near impossible for him to try and then at the end of the year I came back to Bali and I just I was exhausted like I missed my friends I didn't want to be moving all the time I love travel but I like having a home and

I like my friends and my mental health was struggling my physical health you know struggles when you're always on the road and I just really thought that things were gonna happen quickly I mean I've I talked to the police in the UK I have a police officer on the case now who's really amazing and she's really appalled at how the case has been handled up until she was placed on the case which was at the end of last year including months of time where there was no police officer on the case which is actually illegal was she the first female that you had on the case or were there others that were and I've talked to other people that have you know gone to the police about this and like it is always a relief when you get a woman a female police officer and generally speaking

they were more compassionate more understanding and they understood how sick this was there was one female police officer last year who who didn't and she was immediately in the first statement she took from me. It was condescending. She was bothered by me. She would call me by the wrong name. She would say, I think she, I think she referred to him as my boyfriend a couple of times, just like things like that. And, you know, like, obviously you'd like to think that women are here to support each other. And we've probably all been victimized by this in some way, whether it's stalking or just harassment or fear of a man, but that doesn't mean we don't still internalize these kinds of like misogynist ideas and judge other women and put them down and don't believe

them so this woman I have now she's amazing does he still try and contact you yes most days I'll get an email from him and he started sending me more of those videos in a google drive or in other modes the same kinds of things him just talking a camera and for a while he stopped the when he was first arrested, they put a three month bail conditions on him to, you know, not contact me or anyone that was involved in this case. They took his passport. They said he couldn't leave the UK. Those were three of the big conditions. And after that expired, they let him get a new passport. So now he's fled the country and is hiding from the police because he thinks the police are after him. So he's hiding. You're like, I wish they were after him.

But he posts this on social media, does he? Yeah. And he sent me videos that I sent into the police about him saying he's you know in switzerland and the police aren't allowed to use social media as evidence so it's i am the one sourcing the evidence i get the emails from him i figure out where they're coming from i send them a vax location about the restaurant that he's talking about i'm like this is where he is and then three days later a week later they'll confirm that maybe the ip address actually was from you know it's it's crazy and efficient meanwhile he's posting real time on his twitter on his social media about exactly where he is he's not trying to hide he's just he left the uk because his delusions make him think that the uk police are

trying to assassinate him has he tried to come back to you in bali like are you not worried now saying i'm back in bali living right so i wasn't because that kind of conversation wasn't coming up with him another thing that's weird but kind of a benefit for me is i i believe he tells me what he's going to do because he believes I want to be with him. So he tells me what cafe he's going to go to. He tells me that he's going to come to Bali or wants to come to Bali. He tells me he's going to Switzerland. He tells me where he is in Switzerland, escaping the police. So he's not trying to hide from me because he thinks we're together. So he wasn't talking about Bali for a while then in the last I guess since December he's kind of started talking about

coming back to Bali so now it's escalated I think things are going to get bad again I think he you know he's telling me lots of emails it's back to the same thing he wants to come find me in Bali he knows I want him in Bali he's going to find a way to get here he's going to come find me my only solace is I think my community wouldn't let that happen I also think I will know at least maybe a day in advance i believe i don't know i don't know but that's my hope that i'll know and i'll be able to leave is there any part of you that feels scared even doing a podcast like this where you talk about it so openly you talk about the things in terms of how that might trigger him or or how he might respond if he listens to this definitely and i as i'm saying that i'm like

oh gosh i probably watch this podcast i wonder if then it'll get in his mind that he shouldn't tell me these things but what else do you do I mean it's an important thing to talk about and I think unfortunately like sharing these facts I think is really important to my story because until people hear these specific facts they just can't believe that they're getting the whole picture they just think like this can't really be happening that way and so the specific facts are really important for people to really get it like to get how outrageous this is totally and also even when it comes to communicating stuff on Instagram like when you post a video on Instagram most people watch 10 seconds of it or 15 seconds and they think they've gotten the full picture at the time

i mean when we were talking about it i'm sure i was guilty of like okay i saw this thing that was happening i've got like 20 of the story but even now with the levels and the layers of what you've experienced and what you're sharing it's un absolutely fucking believable that the police can't do more and it reinforces why women don't come forward when they're not believed but i mean we would never want to put you in a situation that would potentially create more harm in your life or create anything that might be more distressing for you. But it is also so incredibly important to have these conversations so that we normalize the fact that this can happen to people without them doing something that entices it, without them doing something that then therefore makes

them responsible for the behavior of someone else, which is how unfortunately the legal system sometimes sees these things. Has this obsessiveness and the stalking, has it ever flown on to anyone else in your life like has there been an effect where he has started to have an obsession with them because of you and I genuinely am scared that he would see this episode and start to have an obsession with one of us like that is how I feel listening to your story yeah and I respect that and I understand that and I don't judge you for that fear at all but I mean he has a history from what i understand the history of stalking and he has become like latched some of his obsessions on to friends of mine or people i know including some authorities that have been placed

on this case that being said they're more reactionary more like a defensive kind of obsessiveness i think the object of his obsession yeah he will think he's being targeted by these people right because he's paranoia so he thinks that he's being targeted so he'll sometimes go after those people and or create delusions around like these people trying to assassinate him for example one of my friends he's convinced is trying to assassinate him so it does happen it hasn't become anything to the level of like what he does to me but I also can't tell I don't I don't know what he will do next have you ever posted a partner someone you've been dating like has you ever seen that you have another life outside of him to me or would he think that that's cheating

on him I mean if I had another partner maybe but has that been something you've yeah you've considered I mean I thought about it I was reading you know stories about these cases happening to women and like ending in murder there's you know women in Australia I can't remember this woman's name. Quite famous story about a young Australian girl, 23 years old, had a man stalking her like this. And she posted a photo of her with her new boyfriend. And within hours, she was dead. He broke into her house and stabbed her. And I'll get you her name. I feel awful that I don't have her name because she should have her name be shared and her story be shared. Her mom is a strong advocate for her and these issues. But yeah, it just triggered him. He broke into her

house and stabbed her for minutes until she was dead so it does make me think about that it hasn't come up you know I spent like the last year running around just moving the thing is and that people don't really realize it's used to saying before that you have to be your own detective and advocate for yourself because the police aren't doing it what that means is you can't ignore this if you wanted to you have to read and open every single email because it's the evidence that the only person that's collecting it is you so whether you want to or not for years you are reading this horrific horrific things being written to you where you're scared for your life and I can't imagine what that's like having to be your like to be a police

detective for yourself and living that and say oh well I'll put that into this file now where you know this is the murder file and this is the violence file and this is like I can't imagine what that's like for you and your mental health every single day yeah and watching the videos and having to like write notes so that the police officers will pay attention to this part and then being told like oh but the statement that we took from you was taken on the wrong platform and therefore it's not relevant and not helpful or that piece of evidence you submitted he sent it but he didn't click send until he or he was actually in switzerland so now it's not even relevant or or you were not here it almost seems i'm not convinced that these are actually

inescapable rules but they are from what it feels like excuses to not deal with it like everyone can point their fingers to a different jurisdiction now it's switzerland's fault okay well why did you give him a passport back to be able to leave when he said he was when we knew he was a flight risk what about all the things he said before switzerland and so it is me constantly trying to manage all the evidence while on the other side of it it seems like is the police system that bent on throwing out whatever evidence they can by any ways like for any reason I'm so sorry that you are experiencing this and that this is something that has been so unrelenting in your life you are so brave for publicly sharing your story and also for advocating for anybody else

who is experiencing something that is you know it's unfathomable and for what is next for you like what do you and how do you plan on proceeding with this is there do you have more options is there a anything in terms of like if he comes back to england or is there anything you can do in switzerland like what is now the next steps my next steps are i think a lot of waiting i keep in touch with the police officer in the uk to get updates but i don't know if they're really that convinced like she can do the best she can and it doesn't mean that cps which is the crown prosecution service in the uk is going to want to get involved to the point where they have to coordinate with switzerland to get him extradited or or if he's going to you know go after me while

he's in switzerland and start sending me threats there then i can start a brand new case in switzerland the thing is like you said like it's not something i can just decide i'm bored with and I'm over it because it is constantly in my face and if I were to go and ignore it for a long time I think it could end up with something terrible happening to me so I have to just keep trying in the meantime I'm selective about like where I share my story like on podcasts like this where I feel like we can really talk about larger issues as well and like really honor that even if my case nothing happens with it even if they throw it out because of like a technical logistical blip which very well may happen and something could god forbid i don't know something could

happen you know but at the very least like if my story can be shared and can have a better impact on anyone who listens to it someone who's gaslighting herself some of his friends aren't listening someone who needs the next option in with the working with the police or advocacy you know encouraging people to advocate for their friends or against these issues if it can help in that way then it feels like at least i've done something even if the police want help what needs to happen like and i don't want to think about what the answer to that is because we know because then it's too late when something happens for your case be taken seriously it's going to be too late and like what else are we supposed to do with women like they're like you said there are already laws

it's just no one can be fucked to do anything about it yeah and i think in your instance the fact that it goes across so many countries that that is it's like the the logistical impact that that has is something that makes it so easy for law enforcement to be able to say oh well this is not our responsibility this is their responsibility but at the at the end of the day whose responsibility is it to keep people safe absolutely and like jurisdiction cannot be an excuse for keeping people safe like it's 2024 we live in a globalized world travel is super easy stalking largely happens online which means you can access people anywhere and these laws yes they can point fingers and say it's their jurisdiction, it's that

jurisdiction's responsibility, but they all have similar laws about this. So yes, there needs to be some recognition and awareness that the essence of the crime of stalking means this person will follow you where you go. And it's almost like every country and

every jurisdiction saying, okay, you're over there and he's over there because of his citizenship, so we're not going to touch it. So it's almost like saying, okay, well, next time he comes to the UK, if you could just pop over to the UK so that we're all in the same country at the same time, then we'll wait for him to send the threat and you're like cool so you want me to go and put myself literally in his world where he can physically have access to hurt me just so that

you what hopefully do something well no and i'm sure if you did that if you actually went to where he is that would be like oh well you're soliciting it so you're well it happened anyway you were all in indonesia at the same time and they still didn't do anything yeah exactly like the things that you need to do in order to get them to take you seriously or get the help you need or get the evidence you need you do it and then they'll look at it and they'll flip the coin and all of a sudden you're discredited or they'll throw it out because it's something logistical or jurisdictional or whatever so did he actually abide by the rules that were imposed on him in that three-month junction where he couldn't travel he couldn't contact you did you not hear from him in that

three months he did post a youtube video about me and my best friend which was a violation of his bail conditions and i sent that to the police and said you told me if he violates his bail conditions he'll be arrested he did it and they just actually never responded yeah that's insane before we do let you go i think it's important for us to touch on what are the important changes that you think from your experience need to be made in order to better protect victims of this yeah so definitely some things have been illuminated in terms of you know educating and training police officers on this crime i'm still shocked at how many police officers have told me or other women who have gone forward and said, well, we can't do anything until he

physically hurts you. Meaning they actually, they're the gatekeeper to legal help, right? People go to the police officer first. And if a police officer is telling you, you can't do anything until he physically breaks into your house or physically hurts you, you're going to believe him. And that's absolutely not true. It's not, it's not true. These laws exist to protect people before those things happen. So there needs to be better training on how to listen to these reports how to identify oh this is a stalking case not just a harassment case and we have these resources that we can do to help these women so that's one training police officers better resourcing resourcing them also this is a kind of like wild thing i've learned in the last

several months that's true in some states in australia and then eventually i did some research and it's also true in some states in the united states but this is a sort of a legal technicality But in law, when you're proving, you know, culpability for a crime, there's specific intent and general intent, general intent, meaning a crime that just says this person like generally intended to do the thing. So like manslaughter is an example of that. They generally intended to get in the car that night. They didn't intend to hurt somebody necessarily, but they intended to get in the car. They weren't sleepwalking, for example. Specific intent means they have to you have to prove that this person intended to cause the specific outcome. So there are still some stalking laws in Australia and in the United States that have specific intent requirements in them. What that means is you have to prove that this person who's stalking you intended to cause fear of violence and harm in you.

If that person is obsessed with you and love with you, you're never going to be able to prove that he intended to hurt me. he didn't i don't think this man intends to hurt me or cause harm or cause fear in me i don't think that he intends that i think he thinks we're in a relationship it also means and there have been wild stories about this happening actual cases where if the person intends to hide himself effectively so if he's coming in your house at night or like you know being around your backyard and sniffing your clothing like breaking into your house and doing that you can maybe get him on breaking entering but but there's loopholes with that too if he's following you at night as you drive home from work but he's staying lurking in the shadows because he never intended to be

seen if he's wearing a mask if he's wearing a disguise this is an actual case that happened if he's hiding himself then he never intended to be seen if he never intended to be seen then you can't prove that he intended to cause fear or harm in you oh my god you can't prove the case of stalking this is actually a real law i didn't believe it when i heard it so i did a lot of research on it like in the laws in australia and the united states and it's actually very common it's outrageous for the essence of the crime of stalking which often is people hiding they're trying to like psychologically terrorize you never be caught and often people that are delusional and they are obsessed with you they are in love with you they don't want to hurt you those laws just

absolutely need to change we need to remove specific intent requirements in those laws so that's definitely one and then the third thing is better jurisdictional cooperation in these places where obviously people are flying around there like it's an online crime or it's a crime of following people where they go and all these jurisdictions I'm dealing with now, including Switzerland, they have some laws against this. So there need to be better ways of cooperating with one another to bring enforcement to these laws. Thank you so much for coming and being a part of the podcast. We appreciate you so much and we hope that you were able to get the support and the justice that you so deeply deserve. Thank you.

We'll be right back.