Life Uncut - Monsters. Whose Story Is It? A Trial by Social Media and Can You Ask For Your Ex to Pay You Back?

Episode Date: October 14, 2024

Hey Lifers,Britt and Laura won a big, fancy radio award for best podcast hosts!! Laura is finishing off sailing the high seas on her first cruise so producer Keeshia is filling in for her today. Both her and Britt have unexpected and uncalled for hangovers from the awards night.Britt's whole family think Keeshia is a huge creep! Last week we spoke about Monica and Stephen on Love Is Blind and Stephen’s use of ‘therapy speak’ in the pods to make him seem more emotionally intelligent and in tune.More episodes have been released and... it's not good for Monica and Stephen. But, something happened when they were 'breaking up' and it had us questioning whether you should or shouldn't ask an ex to pay you back for any money they may owe you.Have you asked for someone to pay you after you've broken up? What was the amount? Two shows are currently trending about the Menendez brothers on Netflix. One is a documentary that involved the brothers who are currently in prison serving consecutive life sentences for the murder of their parents. The other is a dramatised TV series based on 10 different perspectives and directed by Ryan Murphy.Ryan Murphy is known for his controversial true crime dramas like Dahmer - Monster: The Jeffrey Dahmer Story, the People vs. O.J. Simpson, and The Assassination of Gianni Versace.` We discuss: Whether it’s ethical to create a series that includes traumatic events without consulting with the people most affected by it,  Whether sensationalising true crime stories has gone too far,  How the public perception of victims of abuse has evolved, and The power of social media in turning attention to these stories. You can watch us on Youtube Find us on Instagram Join us on tiktok Or join the Facebook Discussion Group Tell your mum, tell your dad, tell your dog, tell your friend and share the love because WE LOVE LOVE! xx  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Life Uncut acknowledges the traditional custodians of country whose lands were never ceded. We pay our respects to their elders past and present. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. This episode was recorded on Cammeraygal land. Hi guys and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Brittany. And I'm Keisha and I am filling in for Laura today. And it is such a pleasure because I am podcasting today with the 2024 ACRA Award winners. I mean, one of the two.

Congratulations. It is such an amazing thing and we will get into it. But firstly, we should let you know why Laura's not here. So Keisha is filling in for Laura today because Laura, if you follow along with Laura, Laura has been cruising the high seas. She's been on a family reunion cruise. I don't exactly know where she went. It wasn't that far.

It was just like on the coast of Australia. But she's coming back into port as we speak. So that's why she's not here. She took the entire family, like her family, her sister's family. Her brother came over from America. Oh, it was a whole thing. Her sister-in-law's family. It was the whole family affair.

But, yeah, that's why I'm here today. and back to the acras it stands for the australian commercial radio awards and for laura one for best podcast hosts i'm saying this with a compliment how the fuck did you beat out hamish and andy i was like hang on where are you going with this yeah so yeah so the awards were on the weekend it's like our industry's night of nights it's the oscars for the radio world and podcasting is often grouped into that world as well because a lot of podcasting is part of radio like it's either owned by radio works alongside radio and it's one of those things that you never think you're going to win ever especially when you're up against Hamish and Andy so they were in the

category of best hosts and for me that was the best part not that we beat them but that they've been like idols in a way they're royalty and if there's anyone that you could want to be like or we, we would want to be like, it's like the female version of them, I guess. And it's not like you try to be that, but they're funny. They're successful. They're so good at what they do. So like when they're in, we're like, well, they're obviously going to win. Like we're not going to have a chance. And also they are the biggest podcast in Australia. Like they win number one. I don't think there's been a month where they haven't, even when they go on their three month break. So that was actually so incredible. I'm so stoked for you guys. And

so proud of you. It is such an incredible achievement. And also I just want to make it a little clear because we got some messages yesterday where people were like yay I voted for you guys they're actually a separate award yeah no so that's coming up next month that's coming up next month so we're still hopeful for that one but we're not going to hold our breath and I'm so stoked that you guys you know have got that little bit of recognition within the industry however I feel really really betrayed because you and I went to the awards night we had so much fun I was completely sober same I did not have any alcohol and yesterday I had one of the worst hangovers I've ever had in my life and I genuinely don't know how like

is this just being in your 30s and staying out past midnight is that what happens well I don't think we can call it a hangover I felt the same so I was like couldn't get off the lounge all day I had these headaches didn't drink any alcohol I don't think we can call it a hangover but something happened but I think it's just been in your 30s and it was overstimulated I think it was like too many lights and noises and sounds and like I think your adrenaline's high and you're getting all these dopamine hits and you're talking to people and then all of a sudden you're on this drop I actually felt like I've been hit by a truck I threw up I don't understand what happened to my body and I've kind of been questioning whether all of my hangovers in the past were actually

because of alcohol because that's kind of a big reason why I stopped drinking and I'm like maybe it wasn't alcohol at all I think you just ate something off and that is why you vomited but I think your past hangovers were definitely because you I've been out with you I know what they were yeah you sent it and the reason that Laura was obviously photoshopped in was because she wasn't there but I can't tell we were getting some comments on photos and I can't tell if people were serious or not but some people were like oh so funny that Laura showed up from holiday like quickly showed up and I was like do you know that she wasn't really there or are you joking I wasn't sure but I was like the photoshop wasn't that good it was not a good photoshop job it was definitely

a copy paste of like a sticker into Instagram but some people sent messages also saying like it took me a bit of a hot second because they looked at the two of us who were dressed up for a black tie event and then Laura was in her cruising outfit and they were like that was an interesting choice of outfit from Laura I took a little second for it to kind of clue I do actually have an update for you Keisha I'm glad that you're here last week I'm glad you're here for other reasons too last week we were talking on the podcast about how hot my dad was I wasn't typically I was not talking about how hot my dad is Laura and Keisha off camera started to talk about how hot they think my dad is Laura used to have like daddy crush when we first started this podcast five

years ago my daddy is great he is fit and healthy Keisha sometimes texts him they have like a cute little relationship. I don't know, not a relationship, but like, you know, my dad's very involved in the podcast. He listens to every episode. He loves the girls, but dad didn't know that everyone thought he was so hot. Anyway, we thought it would make a great social video. You guys might've seen, we put on socials. Because we weren't actually, we were kind of setting the cameras up. Like it wasn't going to be a part of the podcast. It was never supposed to be part of the podcast. It was like behind the scenes stuff that we just ended up using. So I wanted to give my family like the heads up does your family think I'm a massive creep well sort of yeah

I mean for other reasons but do they now think double down on the fact that I'm a creep okay so this is so funny I'm in a family chat with everyone sisters sisters and brothers their partners whatever anyway so I sent I was like hey guys dad heads up I was like not that I think you're gonna have a problem with it but this is going out today to the world put the video in that has you guys talking about it and then I wasn't worried about your dad's reaction I was worried about your mum's reaction. Oh funny you say that Keisha. I was like Nikki's gonna ban me from the family. So the first thing the first thing that someone writes is my mum and she wrote wow well happy 46th wedding anniversary to us. I forgot. Nikki it's great you've had a hot husband for 46

years. Keisha, it was their, what are the odds? It was their wedding anniversary of 46 years that day. And I forgot, I forgot. And then I pretend I didn't forget. And I was like, yep, this is, this was us celebrating. This was the congratulations, mom, that you have a hot husband for 46 years. But that was their, and anyway, it turned into this whole thing in the family chat. But my parents have been married 46 long loving years. And that was how I congratulated them with some 30 year olds telling them how hot Tony was. I would like it on record Nikki is also a babe she's also a ride and very very attractive so congratulations to both of your parents for having a really hot spouse for 46 years but that like 46 years is that's crazy

it's actually so admirable that they have had such a good relationship and I know that you know you learn a lot of your relationship values from them and they they're the first people to say like it hasn't all been sunshine and rainbows but it's a testament you know pursuing through the hard times It definitely sometimes leads to think they set me up for failure, like in a way, because when you have such a healthy relationship for 46 years and you're brought up in that, I was like, well, how the fuck am I ever going to find that? I was like, you guys are unicorns. It was almost like the way that they treat each other and the way my dad treats my mom and always has, like I have never, ever even heard my dad raise his voice. And so that just set this really high standard. So basically I blame my 35 years of singledom on my dad.

I love how most people are like, oh yeah, divorce really fucks kids up. And you're like, no, a really, really good relationship is what fucked me up. My loving, healthy relationship set me up for failure. I'm joking, obviously. One thing I did want to talk about, it's something that behind the scenes, Keisha and I have been texting each other about. We've been watching it together. We spoke about Love is Blind last week and Monica and Stephen,

we spoke about therapy talk that we thought this guy, Stephen, was manipulating words that you would learn in therapy, that therapy speak. We thought he was using them to manipulate the partner he got matched with, Monica. And if you haven't listened to that yet, go back and have a little listen. It was last week's ep. Keisha last week was sort of, sort of got on board with this guy. Like at the end, she was like, look, he did have this moment. She's like, I've watched ahead a few episodes and he's actually seems like a really great guy. I, on the other hand, got the ick. He gives me the ick. Yeah, I wasn't team Steven, but because we were criticizing him on the podcast, right? And

we were saying like, you know, I think he's manipulative and I don't know whether he's done this deliberately, but he definitely seems to be using this therapy talk in a way that it wasn't designed for. And I just wanted to say to us, like, let's just be careful because it doesn't look as though he's going to be the villain of the show. So I don't want to go too hard on him if he ends up being, you know, an all right person. And this was just a little bit of a slip up. Well, then Netflix released some more episodes and I was like, wow, we should have gone a thousand times harder on him. Well, firstly, this is going to include spoilers.

So if you're about to watch the show or you want to watch the show or you just don't want to hear what we're about to say, we are skipping forward to episode eight and we are about to give a spoiler. This is your three, two, one to check out. Okay. So it turns out that Stephen was supposed to go to a sleep study. for some reason he was drunk like none of this it doesn't make any sense and he was texting an ex about certain fantasies that he wanted to do with her all while he was still engaged and living with

monica so this is what happened i did make a completely stupid mistake while being drunk at a sleep test with somebody who texted me you were doing it today steven you texted her today and the really gross ones were today so don't fucking lie to my face were you guys texting today no you weren't texting today okay let me see your file i deleted the message of course you did yeah because i didn't want to look at it either and it was coupled with the conversation that we had had last night don't you fucking blame me at all i'm not i'm not blaming you i'm blaming my actions on myself based on how i took our conversation oh i'm taking full responsibility for this which is why i'm getting my stuff and i'm leaving you alone great so i really felt sorry

for monica but then i went on the instagrams and they're they're sharing each other's posts she shared his posts where they're in like a car having fun and and then I got this real like was that even real or are you just doing this for publicity and then he's posting all this stuff like oh here comes the villain arc I was like you are a villain you cheated on your wife we see so much with reality tv of like you know it's the edit and I'm not as bad as what they say I am and I'm like I understand a lot can be done in production and I mean like we work in production I understand how much you can actually manipulate a story in post but you can't make people text their ex their sexual fantasies when they're drunk at a sleep study like this story is just not

adding up and he's like I'm taking full accountability I don't think you are doll I think you need to go and do some personal work and what I hate about this is like I understand when people have their own shit to work through and when they're like I need to work on myself and I'm going to take the time to do that. I'm so sick of them involving other people and getting into relationships at that time because I think it's absolutely fine to acknowledge that you've got some personality flaws

and that you've got some, you know, insecurities and whatever that you need to work on to overcome. He went on Love is Blind. The premise of the show is that you're supposed to be ready to get married. And he's like, you know, I've got a lot of stuff to work on and I'm going to go and work on that. And it's like, no, you shouldn't have ever put yourself

in this position because you're just fucking someone else over. You're just wasting their time. not being respectful of the fact that they're investing in you when you're not at a position that you're able to. And I think that's why I got so frustrated about him in general as the episode kind of played out. I was like, you should never have been here. You should never have taken the opportunity away from her

to meet someone who actually is ready for those things. Sort of giving you Honey Badger vibes, wasn't it? Like, should you have been here? There are so many scenes. No, no, no, do not continue. I'm deceased. I'm actually fucking deceased. It's almost giving – I wasted three months of an entire production crew

and 30 women's lives. It's almost giving deja vu. I'm getting like a flashback. Actually, I wasn't ready for this. I just wanted to have a bit of fun. I know I'm on a love show to find someone, but I just think I need to be single for a while. Okay, cute.

Love that for you. But the best part I think happens next. before you leave I would like you to Venmo me the money you owe me for me carrying your weight the last couple days if you wouldn't mind taking out your phone now to send me the Venmo boss move I love this so much and just to give a bit more context it's not just that he cheated they were breaking up and she asked for the money the context behind this earlier in the episode they're talking about how he lost his job so he hasn't been working and I think that was because he went away on the show for a couple of months he got back they move in together he went

back to work and they were like, we had to replace you. There's this big scene where he has lost his job and he's like, I don't have work for a little while. And she's like, it's okay. I got you. We're a partnership now. This is what we do. I'll look after you and spot you until you're back on your feet. And it was this really wholesome moment that most couples would do for each other, right? That's what sort of being in a relationship is. If one person's struggling, the other one picks up the buck for a little bit and vice versa. But I think the interesting chat is the Venmo, right? like asking somebody to pay you back when you break up. I've done it. Have you? Yes. What happened? There's like a very in-depth story. Like there's a lot to it. And I, I wouldn't

normally do it if you just break up with someone. Like I don't, that's not who I am, but I was with this guy for a while, but I had to lend him quite a lot of money at the time. He got into some trouble, gave him a lot of money. And also I never would have asked for that back because we were in this relationship that was going to marriage. You thought you were eventually going to have like joint finances and whatever. Well, I think you date people knowing that you're going to be with that person. Well, I do. I always date with intention.

I don't waste my time with someone I didn't think was going to be someone. So I was dating with intention with this person I thought was going to be my person. And yeah, I lent him a bunch of money for this particular reason. Then it came out that he was doing all these things behind my back and he was cheating on me all the time. And so we obviously broke up. It was catastrophic. it was a big it was a big moment and then I thought you know what fuck you I gave you money

loving you gave you money thinking we're in this great relationship to help you while you were just fucking other people you can give me that money back and he said no and this went back and forth and it got to the point where I was like I'm actually cannot believe this person has done this to me and then I was so ballsy that I wrote back and I said this is the interest I would have earned on it if it was in my bank. I love that. And I put interest on it. Fair enough. And he paid the interest. I don't know why I like automatically feel as though when Monica said it, like, I mean, they had only, it was a little bit of a different situation. They'd only been living together for like four or five days or something. So the amount wouldn't have been a

lot. I think if it wasn't like a large amount of money, I would feel differently. And I would feel like, no, that absolutely has to come back to the person who gifted it. But I kind of hate the fact that my initial reaction was like oh my gosh as if that's how you're going to get your dignity back like I don't like the fact that I was like I would just rather leave with my dignity and not feel as though I had to ask them for anything in return and I don't know what that's about I wonder if it's my financial independence has always been something that I've wanted to remain in place if that makes sense like it's almost like a security blanket where I'm like I never want to put myself in a position and I'm privileged enough that I've you know been lucky enough to

save money and always have that kind of rainy day fund. But I've just never wanted to give over that control to someone. I think it's the principal involved in this sense. Like I don't, I think if they just broke up amicably, I don't think Monica would have asked him for the money. I think it was a point where she was like, I've just funded you for the last two weeks or whatever. And then you've been doing this behind my back. Fuck you. So I get it in that sense. And I think that feeling Keish comes back to this, this idea that women are never supposed to ruffle feathers and we're not supposed to go after what we want and we're not supposed to be assertive.

So like we're supposed to, in that situation, have bowed down and said, sorry, it didn't work or whatever. Basically her reasoning was, and she said, look, I've been in multiple relationships where I have looked after them. So maybe that's something that she's attracted to. Maybe she does go for people where she. Like the broken bird. Broken bird, I don't know.

But she said, I've been in multiple relationships where I've looked after them and I've given them money and they've fucked me over and I've lost money. And I've asked when they've broken up, she's asked them for the money back. And because it's done and they're gone and they're separated, she never gets it. So that is why on the spot, she said, I'm never letting this happen again. I know if you walk out that door, chances are I'll never get my money back. So that's why to the audience, it looks like it was really quick.

Like the breakup, the cheating and give me my money. She said it was quick because there was no way I was letting someone else get out the door again without, you know, paying me back the money. 100%. And I absolutely love that she did it. And I don't know why I've got this initial feeling within myself that if I was in that position, I wouldn't like, I feel a little bit silly and I feel as though that's not a good thing that I would be like that because I've never asked for money from an ex, but

maybe that's because I haven't really lent much money to an ex. It's something that I think I would feel a bit uncomfortable doing. But like you said, you do it for someone that you love. And I think if they are in need, you should offer that. But I've just never been in the position where I have. I would never ask for money like I never have again I've never asked for anything back money back or gifts or goods or whatever when a relationship ends mine was only because I had lent this to him when he was doing the dirty behind my back so I was just like

fuck you but if I ended a normal relationship and we get these questions a lot people will write in and they'll say like we've broken up he's asked me for this back or she wants this back or and I think that that can be a little bit silly I think that what goes on in a relationship when it's loving and whole I don't think you can go back and reflect and say okay well we've broken up now so over the last two years this is everything that I paid for I don't think it works like that personally I think it's very dependent on the situation but I would love to know if how many of our listeners have been in a situation where they've asked for something back I would also love to know the smallest amount that you've asked for back like what was the

limit where you went no I want my $25 from dinner because we see this on the internet every now and then we're like someone will go out for like a coffee date the coffee date won't work out and then someone will send a request like Venmo is American I don't do we have it here I feel like we have like PayPal instead yeah we have like you can pay someone with a phone number if you yeah but I feel as though we've read about people asking for like six dollars I want to know how petty you got I would love it if it was something really really really small but I would actually be really interested to know how you feel about this situation and whether you would ask an ex for money back or does it have to be over a certain limit? Don't you remember years

ago, if you guys are new, you won't know this story, but years ago I went on a date with this person and while we're on the date, he had to pay for the sandwich for lunch and he was so upset that he had to pay for it that on the way back to the beach to eat the sandwich on our lunch date, he made me stop at an ATM and I had to get him $20 cash out. Keisha, do you not know this story? I do not. Are you joking? Okay, strap in, kids. He made you get out a $20 note to have a sandwich.

It was a lunch date. I'm going to tell you guys. I just thought about friends, you know, and he's like, my sandwich. My sandwich. It was a lunch date and we met in my suburb, which was in, it was years ago. So it was in Coogee in the eastern beaches of Sydney. We met. We're just going to get a sandwich, a smoothie, sit at a beach, low key, first date.

We went to the sandwich shop. He ordered. I went to pay with my card so I went to pay anyway right and as I handed my card over they were like sorry it's cash only and I giggled awkwardly I was like oh sorry I turned around to him and I said do you have any cash it's cash only and he said oh that was convenient ha ha ha like a joke and I was like oh okay kind of joke whatever so he got cash out and he paid for the sandwiches two sandwiches that's it he made it so awkward so then I was like look let's make it even the smoothie shops across the road. I'll get the smoothies. Call it a day. So we went across to the smoothie

store and I went to pay with my card and they said, sorry, it's cash only. Oh, I thought this was hilarious. I was like, how long ago was this? Like, I know who has just these little tiny places in Coogee, right? Little hole in the walls. I turned around. I thought this was funny. And I was like, what are the odds? I'm so sorry. Do you have any more cash? And he rolled his eyes and he said, are you just taking me to places that, you know, are cash only so you don't have to pay? and I didn't know if it was a joke but I was so taken aback and there was that awkward pause and I was like oh he's serious and I said I was sorry I was like if you want I can stop at the ATM and get your cash out on the way and he's like yeah okay as we were walking down to the beach my

internal monologue was going overdrive I thought surely he's not gonna make me actually stop at an ATM right now and get him $20 out the ATM was coming up and I started to slow down I was like I guess I'll stop here now at the ATM. Waiting for him to say, don't be silly. He's like, okay. So I got $20 cash out. And that was when my panties dried up. Like they lock and key, pants were up. This was never going to go any further ever. Gave him the $20, took it, put it in his pocket, walked down to the beach, had lunch. And he said, I had a great day. I'd love to see you again. I was like, wrong. Computer says no. Oh my gosh. So that happened. So there are people that do that.

I mean, I feel as though the opposite of this would be men who are going on dates with girls who expect for them to put their card down. But that's like, that's a very cheap date. That's a daytime smoothie in a sandwich. I would understand if you went to Nobu. Yeah. It was like, nah, I didn't really expect to be paying this amount of money. But to go to an ATM on the date.

I'm so uncomfortable for you. He'd still be single for sure. today we wanted to talk about something that feels a little bit left of field for us we want to talk about the ethics of creating true crime content doesn't feel left of field for me you love this i live for this we also want to talk about the changing perceptions of how we view victims and whether a social media frenzy that creates attention to particular true crime stories can be a really good thing or whether it's always a bad thing. We are going to talk about two pieces of content that are currently on Netflix that all have to do with the Menendez brothers. It's a true

crime docuseries that the world is sort of talking about right now. It's number one on Netflix. It's called Monsters, the Lyle and Eric Menendez story. This is a nine part series directed by Ryan Murphy. If that name sounds familiar, Ryan Murphy also directed the Jeffrey Dahmer story. This is what Ryan Murphy does. He takes these huge crime cases and turns them into Netflix hits. You may remember a year or so ago, we talked about the dramatization and sensationalism surrounding Jeffrey Dahmer and that story. Well, Ryan Murphy has gone and done it again with the Menendez brothers. And there are two series going on concurrently on Netflix. One is this dramatization of the murder. Two is a docu-series that Netflix have created where they actually speak to the

Menendez brothers in prison. Yeah, so Eric and Lyle Menendez, they were 18 and 21 at the time. They are two brothers who shot and killed their parents, Jose and Kitty Menendez, with shotguns in their living room in 1989. Jose Menendez, their father, was a record executive who worked with bands such as Duran Duran and The Eurythmics, and they had quite a lavish Beverly Hills lifestyle. They were a loaded, very rich family. Yeah, yeah. They'd done very well for themselves. So on the night of August 20 in 1989, Lyle called 911 to report that his parents had been killed. Both of the brothers, they claimed that they'd been at the movies and they suggested that the mafia might have been involved with the crimes. However, later, Eric, the younger brother,

actually confessed the murder to their psychotherapist, Dr. Ozeal. He had taped those therapy sessions and it was his mistress who took those tapes to the police in 1990 when the brothers were then arrested and charged with the murder of their parents. Now, the trial for these brothers was actually aired on TV. It was aired on a channel called Court TV and it became a national media sensation. The brothers argued in court that they killed their parents because they were scared for their own lives and they had been sexually and physically abused for decades by their father. Lyle also accused their mother Kitty of sexual abuse, stating that she would wash his body everywhere and invite him into bed with her where she would

touch him. It's a truly compelling story. And if you haven't yet seen this, it might not be for everybody. I have heard some people say it was hard to watch and they had to turn it off. I've heard some people say they love it. And when I say they love it, they don't mean they obviously love the story, but they love the way it was presented and filmed. I do love true crime. You guys know this uh and i like these type of shows i in a weird way when we spoke about jeffrey dharma i enjoyed watching that and that sounds sick but i i don't enjoy it because it really happened i enjoy because i want to try and see the why i want to try and get into the the reason that people are making these decisions in their life that's what i wanted to do with the menendez brothers why i did

two boys because everybody knows this case well maybe not everybody but it was a huge case of the time and it's a story that's gone across the decades when i heard it was coming out i was I'm definitely going to watch that because I want to know the why that they did it. I enjoyed, and I know it's the wrong use of the term and it will be taken the wrong way, I enjoyed the series in the context of the actors were brilliant. If this wasn't a true story, I would have said it was directed well, but I guess I'm looking at it from a different point of view. Yeah, so today we wanted to have a little bit of a conversation about a few things,

but the main one being the ethics of making a true crime series without the victim's involvement. obviously two of the victims of this crime are dead and so you're not able to get consent from them but two people that are heavily involved and accused are still alive and they are accessible you do have the option to go and consult them when putting this docuseries together which was evident because the documentary it was an hour and 57 minutes and the two brothers who are currently still in prison and have been for about 35 years they recorded 20 hours of phone conversation interviews and they included those in the documentary. Interestingly, when the Ryan Murphy series came out, the Menendez family had a lot to say about it. So they said they called

it repulsive. They said it was a character assassination of Eric and Lyle. Their actual quote was, we love them and to this very day we are close with them. We also know what went on in their home and the unimaginably turbulent lives that they have endured. Several of us were eyewitnesses to many atrocities one should never have had to bear witness to. which is interesting because you don't see that part in the series. You don't see all of the family coming forward and saying, yeah, we saw all this sexual assault. This is true. It also must be really hard for the families to still be on their side, knowing they did butcher their parents. I can't imagine the complexities that are going on within that

family dynamic, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about ethical considerations right now. Should we be making these series purely to be getting number one hits. Is it unethical to be making these series based on someone's real life without the consultation of the people involved? Keisha, do you think it's okay for Ryan Murphy to have done this without any consultation from the Menendez brothers? My immediate response to that is no. I think that it is quite unethical to use someone's deepest trauma, something that has happened in their very real lives, to profit from and to create something that is supposed to be entertainment. And I think where I really get into a gray area with this is when it stops being

journalism and it starts being a bit of like a fiction narrative, but it's actually about real people. And so it's really hard to see where the line is between what's truth and what's been deliberately played up to create a more compelling story. And I think that this was really obvious. The main example that I have of this is that in the series that Ryan Murphy created, he implied that there was this incestuous relationship a consensual incestuous relationship between the brothers as they were into their early 20s as they were growing up yeah yeah there were scenes where they kiss on the lips there's a lot of close sexual touching and like intimacy between the brothers there's a scene where they're actually in the shower together and their the mom walks

in sees them in the shower together as like teenage late teenagers and she just leaves it's for me very very questionable to have made that into a piece of content when it's so known that there was sexual abuse that happened between these brothers as well as to them so Lyle admitted in court that he had sexually molested his brother and that he was so sorry for it and we need to also add in the complexities of the fact that this was someone who was sexually abused and probably didn't have very good understandings of what and what was an okay touch when they were children. He was a child when this happened. So I really have a problem with the fact that that narrative was portrayed as though it was a consensual incestuous relationship as they were

adults. One person actually took to X and made a statement saying, if Ryan wanted to make a show about twin brothers developing an intimate relationship with each other due to shared sexual trauma and parental abuse, then he should have written a new story. You don't get to rewrite the experience of real people and real victims to suit yourself well i think i think the reason people are so hooked on this and captivated by the story is because there isn't a clear outcome and when i say that yes the outcome is they went to prison but nobody really knows what happened did they kill their parents because they just wanted money and then they fabricated this story about incest for their whole life and sexual abuse which is you know that is a question that is posed

in the Ryan Murphy series is, has the lawyer just come up with this to try and get them off? Let's just say that this was because you had years of this abuse. And actually that lawyer, Eric's lawyer had used that as a defense in a previous case. Yes. This exact defense had gotten someone off previously. So the question is posed is, were they psychopaths that killed their parents for money, then fabricated a story that they were abused their whole life to get off, or were they really abused their whole life and then just snapped one day. And this is what nobody actually knows. We didn't get to the bottom of it. We weren't shown enough evidence on either side. So this is the question. Half of the population thinks that they should be in prison because they are

liars and they just killed their parents for money. The other half thinks, well, should they be serving this much time when they really were abused this whole time? I think it comes back to the story, the same question we posed with Jeffrey Dahmer. Who owns the story? So when we talk about should Ryan Murphy have consulted the Menendez brothers? I don't think there is a clear answer because if they really did just butcher their parents and their sociopaths, then do we owe that story to the deceased parents who had their lives taken away from them? Do we have to consult murderers if that's the case? But if they were abused and that was true, then yes, they should have been consulted. But who owns the story? And usually it's a little bit more clear, but this one

is so complicated. I agree with some things Ryan Murphy has said off the back of this and I disagree with some. Have a listen. I would say 60 to 65 percent of our show in the scripts and in the film form center around the abuse and what they claim happened to them. And we do it very carefully and we give them their day in court and they talk openly about it. We present the facts from their point of view. Largely, you know, we spent three years researching it. All that is true. What resources that you were using for that research? Just everything that we could find. I mean, I had such a huge team and I do and I do these biopics. So I think that's really interesting and people should know that. I also understand what's interesting is in this age where people

can really talk about sexual abuse, which I didn't have when I was younger, that talking about it and writing about it and writing about all points of view can be controversial. The interesting thing that I think about monsters this season is it's a Rashomon kind of approach where there were four people involved in that. Two of them are dead and two of them are alive with the point of view. But what about the parents? We had an obligation as storytellers to also try and put in their perspective based on our research, which we did. People are talking about the monster series and how there was like this romantic relationship between the brothers. Where did that come from? I think people are confused about that too. If you watch the show, if what the show is doing

is presenting the points of view and theories from so many people who were involved in the case. Dominic Dunn wrote several articles talking about that theory and how he thought that theory had validity what we do in the show is he talks about that we are presenting his point of view just as we present Leslie Abramson's point of view the show presents over 10 points of view of different events so when people watch that and they see that that is somebody in our show having a narrative statement about this is what I believe really happened and we had an obligation to show all about it we did yeah do you think that that is really interesting about you know one journalist who had a theory about this incestuous relationship and then they ran with it yeah and the second part

of this that i think is really interesting is looking at the evolution of the way that we view victims now and the fact that we now have a lot deeper understanding of what trauma and sexual abuse can do to a person so back in the 1990s as this trial was publicized across the nation this was some of the media's response to what they thought of the brothers the myths back then about who a sex offender was didn't fit the Menendez family. And a powerful, highly successful executive was not looked upon as the kind of person who would sexually abuse their children. But looking at these attractive, well-dressed white guys just doesn't match the public's perception of what a victim should look like. And therefore, there's a natural tendency to

discount it. It just doesn't fit with how we think of privileged people. The defense used psychological manipulation of the jurors by putting nice-looking, wealthy young men in sweaters, crying on the stand. The sweater defense is so pathetic to me. It didn't work for Dan Rather when he was trying to soften his knee. Why didn't the Menendez brothers leave? They'd grown up.

They should have left the house if they were being abused. Put everything, watching a lot of court TV. Riveted, riveted to the Menendez brothers' trial. I don't get a chance to watch much TV. Oh, these two arrogant brothers are going to fry. Britt, do you think that the media and the public were biased because Eric and Lyle were rich white boys? A hundred percent. At the end of the day, sexual assault was not seen to happen to boys.

It wasn't seen to happen to rich white boys and males by a rich white man. This was shown when in the Ryan Murphy series, they spoke about battered woman syndrome. Now, battered woman syndrome was literally, it's changed now, but that was the name used to refer to women that were in abusive relationships. Because of the fact it had woman in the title, they were like, well, these little boys don't fit that. So we can't use that. We can't use that as a defense.

We can't use that as an excuse or a reason. So that played against them immediately. I also think a huge part of the reason that they were convicted I mean it's it's hard right the question is not did they do it they did it it's proven they admitted it they said we killed our parents this is not what the discussion is about the discussion then goes to did they get a fair trial and morally ethically what do you do in that situation because they have murdered their parents but if they were sexually and physically abused since the age of five until 20 what should the verdict be what should the punishment be should the punishment be as harsh as life in

prison and the death sentence and murder or should we take leniency into the case because they were abused and manipulated their whole time it's really hard to hear the media mocking them and laughing at them like that when they were sexually abused their whole time but I definitely believe if they had a trial now I think the timing was imperative in the outcome of their case if they had a trial now it would be a completely different trial different media coverage and a different outcome a huge part that I believe and they do present this theory was because it was at the exact same time as OJ Simpson was being tried OJ Simpson if you're not aware ended up getting off his murder trial. He had an amazing defense system who Kim Kardashian's father was a part of. And I

say that because it's sort of all ties in together. So OJ Simpson was not convicted of murder, but because he got off, the public and the media and everybody as an audience, a collective audience was wanting to see somebody go to prison for a crime that they did because they felt like they were cheated with the OJ Simpson case. They felt like that was very obvious and somebody should have been punished for a crime they did. Let's keep the community safe. Let's prove that the court systems know what they're doing. And interesting that you mentioned OJ because Ryan Murphy also directed the, I'm not sure if you've seen it on Netflix, but The People versus OJ Simpson. That was another one of Ryan Murphy's creations. They've stated

that maybe the OJ Simpson's acquittal did have a lot to do with the fact that the brothers were retried in the second trial. For anyone who doesn't know the actual story, the first court case ended up being with a hung jury so that was between murder and manslaughter and that would have had a reduced sentence if they had been convicted for manslaughter and that took the sexual abuse into account the trial was retrialed and in that the legal system took the option of manslaughter off of the table so it was either murder or they walk free or free yeah there was no in between and that's why they were both given double life sentences in which they're currently serving now. Another part of this conversation has to do with trial by social media because of

the social media frenzy around these docuseries. And it's kind of been stewing on TikTok over the last couple of years because of that public response. The brothers have been granted a court hearing and it's going to happen on November 29 of 2024. So very, very soon in a month and a half, there is further evidence that Jose Menendez sexually abused a boy outside of their family. And that's the new evidence that they are potentially going to be bringing into court. And it could actually result in a retrial or resentencing for the brothers, which makes me question, you know, I was very critical of the fact that these dramatized and sensationalized coverage of a particular story, in my opinion, was unethical.

But then the other side of it is like, well, if it creates such a response that these brothers are now able to get a retrial and have the case be re-examined, is it a good thing to get more eyes and ears on a particular story so that they can maybe have a different outcome? I don't know. Pamela Bozenich, she prosecuted the Menendez brothers in the first trial back in 1993, came out of the back of this and said this. The only reason we're doing this special is because of the TikTok movement to free the Menendez. If that's how we're going to try cases now. Why don't we just like have a poll? You present the facts. Everybody gets to vote on TikTok and then we decide who gets to go home. Your beliefs are not facts. They're just beliefs.

And by the way, all you TikTok people, I'm armed. We got guns all over the house. So don't mess with me. I'm on both sides here. It is true. Your beliefs are your beliefs. That's it. They're not fact. And we are obviously led down a garden path sometimes. That's what the trial did. They presented only the evidence they wanted to present so that there would be a guilty verdict. Then you see the power of the public and the power of social media and the power of the voices like Kim Kardashian, who has 300 million people on social media that she can influence. She comes and starts to defend the Menendez brothers, demand retrials, the rest of the public get on board, there's a mob mentality, and now we are literally going to see them

go back to court. But in this case, this could be a good thing because they will get probably a fairer trial with the new evidence presented. so it's it's so hard to know what the right thing to do is with this sensationalism and the and the social media movement like on one hand you can condemn it and say stick to your lane like you guys are in social media you've got nothing to do with it but on the other sense we're seeing that they have the power to completely change people's lives yeah and i even question the response from the woman who initially was the prosecutor on the menendez brothers saying like the only reason that

we're here is because of TikTok. I think it's a really good thing that now we have a way to voice what we think is morally correct, to voice other perspectives around, well, hang on, have you considered all of these different factors that may or may not have contributed to an outcome? I think that she's being very patronizing in how she says like, you know, should we just do a poll on TikTok and see what happens? Like our legal system was supposed to be created to represent the morals of the people who live within that society and for her to kind of just be like your beliefs are not facts yes that is true but the beliefs that were brought into the court were also not facts they really discounted a lot of the the effects that sexual abuse can have on people

especially people as young as what these brothers were I just think it's very patronizing I really I had quite an opposition to her with a lot of what she had to say and I thought you're deliberately trying to discredit the people online by calling them like little TikTokers and, you know, making out that their perspectives are not valid. And I don't think that that's fair. I actually think that a collective response from social media can be very impactful. And we're now seeing that because they're going to go back to court. It's only because of the people who have examined this case and been like, something doesn't feel very right here. Also, how interesting, just to finish this off, how interesting, and I wonder what the Menendez brothers think to hear that Kim Kardashian

is now advocating for them when Kim Kardashian's dad was the defense for O.J. Simpson. Big reason the Menendez brothers went to prison was because O.J. Simpson didn't. I just pictured that web of like string on someone's page, you know, when all the things are going together. Yeah. One more layer. Kim Kardashian is a very, very good friend of Ryan Murphy. Yeah. Who created the Monsters series. Yeah. So there's a lot of parts of this that are just so interwoven. And yeah, and I think at the end of the day, this isn't necessarily about these two particular brothers. I mean, it could have a very real outcome for them. I think I question more about the ethics involved in creating true crime content and what needs to be considered and whose perspective needs to be

taken into account and whether we completely understand the effects of trauma and abuse that can lead to the outcomes. I mean, even as that's come out of my mouth, it makes me kind of question well when we report on true crime now like there's so many podcasts do we take the perspective of the murderer into consideration not really because they're the bad person they're the one who's done the wrong thing i think the question that everybody should be asking themselves now is should we continue to profit off and sensationalize real people's lives real crimes highlight people like jeffrey darman and the menendez brothers like is that where we are we obviously love to consume it every time one of these is dropped. It's the number one on the streaming platform.

They're the top podcast that we listen to, a true crime podcast. I think in almost every country's charts, true crime takes up one of the top 10 podcasts. We, for whatever reason, love to consume it. And it will always be a moral conflict for every person on, should I be watching this and enjoying it? Because they have sensationalized it so much and dramatized it. They've Hollywoodized it. Should we be sitting there and enjoying it? at the end of the day, I think the answer is going to continue to be yes, because people are making money off it. Well, it's time for Suckin' Sweet, the highlight and the low light of the week. Keish, you can kick it off. What's your suck? My suck is our non-alcohol induced hangover. I

literally spent all of yesterday on the couch. And I like, I just, I feel as though I've really been on a journey that has caused me to be alcohol free and I've been reaping the benefits of it. I've been talking for quite a few months now about how much better I've been feeling and how I don't have anxiety in the way that I used to. And yesterday I was just like, I don't deserve this. I do not deserve to feel this rubbish when I haven't been doing the things that I used to do that would make me feel this rubbish. So that is my suck for the week. That is what a sober night out in your 30s does to you. Honestly, like I'm 31. What happens is you ate. What's happened to my body? What's sweet my sweet for the week actually has a lot to do with you Brit I feel as though we do spend so

much time together at work and you know even in our communication throughout the week when we're not physically together it is a lot about I think we text and call each other more than me Ben like quite literally it's a lot about work but in the last couple of days I think that we've gotten to spend so much time together that is just it's just felt more normal to it quite we have quite a weird relationship because you're my boss. You're also one of my best friends. You're also the closest thing that I feel I have to a sisterly type relationship. And sometimes when those things all kind of mingled in together, it's a little bit weird about what am I? What are we? And like the power dynamic and kind of like what's work, what's not, what's fun times. Like it's all quite

blended. And not that I felt like we needed to have like a reconnection. But we did. But we just well you didn't need it but I feel as though we got it in the last couple of days we spent a lot of time together doing some really fun things and getting to like get dressed up together and go and enjoy that and you and Laura winning the award was definitely a highlight I think it was really cool to see you guys recognize so that's my sweet for the week I'm sorry if I stole from your sweet because it might be that as well but your sweet too uh what was your suck for the week my suck was my I think my next Botox is wearing off again like every two to three months guys this will be my suck. So yesterday I started getting really bad headaches again. So I had 10 hours in bed

last night. My whoop told me 10 hours in bed, which was brilliant, but I just had the worst headache. So that was my suck was yesterday. I was just out of action on a Sunday. Sunday's like your down day as well. It's the day that you, you want to actually relax and go and enjoy the day. And I just couldn't enjoy it because of my head, but my sweet has to be the award winning our first like big industry acra it would be remiss of me not to say that so yeah we're chuffed and that's I'm sure that's Laura's suite too if she was here she had a great cruise from what I can see so I think her suite would be like the cruise into the award even though she wasn't there to get it and yeah it's really really cool so sweet upon sweet upon sweet and actually funny you speak about

migraines because tomorrow we have an episode dropping with your neurologist Dr. Caitlin empower it. It is all about migraines. And this was a really interesting one for me to edit actually, because I've not ever had a migraine. And I think that by listening to the experiences of people who do get it, I have such a deeper empathy for people who do experience it. I think I've seen you in the depths of it, but it was sympathy, not empathy. You know, I wasn't able to relate to what that might feel like. You're like, oh, that sucks, but you don't know. I was like, oh yeah, you know, like, so you have a really bad headache for a couple of hours and then, you know, you've got to kind of go to ground and then you come out of it.

Not that I was ever dismissive of it. I just couldn't understand what that must feel like. And I think this episode with Dr. Caitlin, it really opened my eyes to what those people experience. Yeah. And it sounds a bit rogue that we're doing this to a lot of people, but I cannot tell you the interest, the most responses and questions that I get on Instagram, in my DMs, in emails is around migraines. How you get them, why you get them, what kind you get, how do you treat it,

why you treat it, does it work? What are the triggers? Can you get your treatments while you're pregnant, while you're breastfeeding? There are so many questions that came off the back of it and I realized how many people it affects. Does it affect women more than men? So that is the reason I wanted to do it because I know how many other people are struggling and don't have the answers. And I didn't have the answers a year ago. And it changed my life when I stumbled across Dr. Parrott and the treatments that were available, the reasoning behind things and the triggers. So that's why we're doing this. And I hope even if you're not a migraine sufferer, you listen because you probably know someone that's got them. Anybody can get them at any

time. So even if you haven't historically had them, something can change in your hormones or your life or your stress and you can become a sufferer just as easily as apparently I can grow out of them in a way. So I'm hoping that happens to me because I'm growing, I'm aging and I haven't aged out of them. So I hope you all get something from tomorrow's episode. Caitlin is not your normal neurologist. She's wonderful. So great. She's so interesting. And I think that's what I really wanted to stress is that if you don't suffer from migraines, I would naturally see an episode like that and I'd be like, nah, that's not for me. It's so interesting. It was so fascinating and I learnt so much, but it was also fun because she's great.

She's really, really funny. So that is coming out tomorrow and you know the drill. Tell your mum, tell your dad, tell your dog, tell your friends and share the love because we love love.