Life Uncut - My mum is a narcissist - Talking Narcissism part 2

Episode Date: December 12, 2023

Hey Lifers!Today's episode is part 2 of diving into narcissism. You can listen to part 1 on narcissists in romantic relationships here! Now we are taking a deep dive on having a narcissistic parent and how to navigate co-parenting with a narcissist.Firstly we are joined by Monique. Monique and her siblings grew up with a mum who was the most noticeable person in the room. She was generous, she was incredibly beautiful and she was also a narcissist. We speak to her about how her and her siblings felt about themselves growing up, her mum's manipulative behaviour & subsequent affair and how she went about actually cutting her mum off for good.We often hear the phrase 'blood is thicker than water," but for Monique, her life has been a lot happier since severing that relationship.Then we are joined by Nova Gibson. Nova is an expert on narcissistic abuse, the founder of Brighter Outlook Narcissistic Abuse Counselling Service, and the author of "Fake Love."  Nova speaks with clients every day who experience narcissistic parents and she has an incredible insight into how to navigate these complex relationships. You can get a copy of Nova's book Fake Love!   If you have an question please send it on it to life uncut podcast on Instagram hereJoin us on tiktok Or join the facebook group here Tell your mum, tell your dad, tell your dog, tell your friend and share the love because WE LOVE LOVE! xxSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Life Uncut acknowledges the traditional custodians of country whose lands were never ceded. We pay our respects to their elders past and present. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. This episode was recorded on Darug Walamutta land. Hi guys and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Laura. I'm Brittany. And I am so looking forward to today's interview and today's conversation because you guys might remember a few weeks ago, we did part one of a chat around narcissism, but this

conversation that we had a couple of weeks back was all around dealing with narcissism in a romantic relationship. And I feel like there's been so many conversations recently around narcissism, around narcissistic personality disorder, but so much of it is always about romantic relationships. and it raised for us so many more questions around okay well if the explanation which is where we got to on that episode for dealing with a narcissist in your life is to cut ties with them is to go no contact how do you then deal with a narcissist if the person you're dealing with in your life is actually your parent or somebody who you have to co-parent with where you can't

just cut them out completely yeah it's a whole different kettle of fish and that first episode was with Nova Gibson who is the director, founder and primary counsellor of Brighter Outlook Narcissistic Abuse Counselling Service. She's also the author of Fake Love. She has spent her life dedicated to narcissism. We thought she was a perfect person to come back on for part two which is all around family narcissism. But in order to really tackle this conversation we didn't want it to just be an education piece. We also thought it would be really important to speak to somebody who has experienced a narcissistic parent, because this is a type of relationship and power dynamic that I think doesn't get explored as often, but it is so damaging for a child or for an adult child

who needs to grow up and overcome that sort of narcissistic abuse from their parent. And sometimes it can be really overt and it can be really damaging. And then other times it can be more covert in the ways in which that narcissism plays out from a parent. And so we have Monique, who is one of our listeners, joining us on the podcast to talk through her experience with her parent, the reason why she is now no contact with her mother and how that relationship played out throughout her life. Let's get into the chat with Monique. Monique, can you tell us a little bit about what your mum's personality was like when you were growing up? She's very charismatic. She's just a real extrovert. People loved her. I actually thought of her when I was listening to

your episode Brett about how you dated a sociopath you said he would walk into a room and everybody knew that he was there and immediately I was just like the only person I can think of is her because she had that in spades you know everyone loved her very funny and warm and beautiful and so people would naturally really drawn to her but she also wanted that you know she loved it she thrived of being that center of attention she would go to extravagant lengths to make them love her you know she would buy ridiculous presents for people she would buy them jewelry and pay for their kids holidays and things like that to make people love her but at home she was entirely different you know she would have these episodes where she would fly off the handle we would come home from

somewhere and she would be sure that my dad was looking at some other woman all night long and things like that and these episodes would last for sort of two days of just walking on eggshells but out and about to other people and to our peers and her friends she was just the best just the most charismatic person ever so it was quite polarizing in that sense but we knew that that was who she was how did your dad manage the relationship at that time like if there was there's volatility at home do you remember how he was kind of like what his reaction to it would be yeah he was always very gentle with her in a sense that I think of it now I'm like man you are so patient you are the most patient person and for some context as well he is just the most

beautiful person like it's actually quite tragic to think that the nicest kindest dude he ended up married to someone for 30 odd years that was just a total narcissist that didn't bring him a lot of joy apart from his children do you feel like you and your siblings how many siblings do you have I have four there's lots of us yeah I'm one of four too do you feel like growing up there was one special golden child that got all the love and all the attention that could do no wrong like the Teflon child and then there was one that was I don't want to say picked on and bullied but maybe that was the case? I don't know if there was a golden one but there was definitely one that was picked on and quite obviously so and now in hindsight and being an adult I can see that it

was quite sick really because my sister who was the picked on one she's just this like beautiful goddess creature and I feel like she was always quite jealous of her but she was always in trouble right she was diagnosed with ADHD as a kid I always thought it was down to that the fact that you know she was just bringing home strife quite often as a like troublesome teenager and I thought that was why you know they just didn't get on but now in hindsight I think no it wasn't that it was like it was somebody that she had to share the attention with that was hard for her and it was hard to see because they look quite similar as well I think that it was hard for her in that sense but I mean to this day it's affected my sister like she's not a hugger she doesn't like

people to touch her she's not affectionate but she wasn't given affection yeah of course you know throughout her life really she wasn't given that affection by our mother things like that so I think that's affected her I mean when we've been unpacking this idea of dealing with a narcissistic parent there's so much conversation around narcissistic romantic relationships there's not as many conversations around dealing with a narcissistic relative mostly parent because that power dynamic is so severe did you feel and one of the things that seems to be this recurrent I guess indicator is the use of your children as almost like as property but I don't know if property is the best way of saying it almost as though they are a reflection of you like their

successes are a reflection of your success and there's almost instead of having children in order to set them up to be the best people that they can be individually it's how can they serve me this sort of like well you owe me because I'm your mum I feel like with ours it goes against that sort of stigma in the sense that she liked to keep people below her slightly so she was never trying to spend time with her equals she always looked for people that were maybe a little bit more vulnerable that maybe would really need her so she looked for sort of the outcast the the people that were maybe a little bit more geeky you know because she was always like this cool this popular this beautiful lady and those people would build her up you know they would

attach themselves to her and so I think with us she always wanted a bit less which is really sad for us you know she would just be like just get married just get married just have kids don't worry about school things like that we've all rebelled against that but for us she always wanted that power that you were talking about to always be able to wield that so she would keep herself elevated. It's unusual that she would say just get married and don't worry about an education like that's a big statement but also it's a really strange thing to say I'm going to make sure I keep you that one step lower intellectually. But yeah but also I mean makes sense if you feel like you're in competition with your daughters. Yes. Which is such a messed

up power dynamic in itself. That and money as well though. So my dad was always well off like my dad always did well and I think that that's what gave her a sense of pride in herself that she could go and splash out on things she could go and be generous to her friends and if she kept that for herself but kept us below her then she would always weld that power of a sense of oh you need me because I can buy you this and I can buy you that. Your mum went on to have an affair yeah which you found out about later in life can you talk me through that phase and how she I guess once it all came to light how she responded to that period I mean I wish I could say you know she said sorry and that she left us alone and that we got a breathing space from her

in terms of just being able to heal but we didn't it was just the usual like gaslighting and manipulation and blaming everyone else for her actions it was very stereotypical in the sense that it's not my fault it's your fault I've done this and actually you guys will be fine because you love your dad more and he doesn't even really like me and how old were you when this affair happened I was 21 and my youngest sibling was 18 yeah my oldest sister was pregnant with their first grandchild so she had a lot to lose in that sense but also we were all adults we were all making our own decisions you know we had the choice of whether or not we had to spend time with her right yeah also because we're adults we're also privy to every detail and we know

right from wrong we know everything as opposed to little kids when this happens to little kids they don't get a say and they don't know everything so it's definitely different as you're older But even so, I mean, having that flipped and saying, well, you're the reason that I had an affair, it seems incomprehensible that someone could blame that on anyone, whether it be their family or something, an external factor. What were the excuses that she was coming up with? What were the reasonings? Apart from it being broadly, it's everybody else's fault, but how did she rationalise it to herself that it was other people's fault? That our dad worked too much, that we always just loved him more.

it's funny we spoke to Sam Fisher recently and he spoke about his relationship with a narcissistic parent his father and just the things you're even saying now so similar to what he went through and his dad had an affair and completely blamed him as well like he was the child that was picked on out of his kids out of his siblings and then his dad was like you know basically it's on you like you needed too much and you took your mother away from me so I had to go and sleep with someone else what happened when the affair came out and I asked that because sometimes there's a level of the narcissist wanting people to know like sometimes it's I want this to be out because I want to be the victim and I want to play this and this card and this card how did it come out she definitely

lost a lot of people because so many people were really really shocked they couldn't compute the person that they knew to have done this and to carry on kind of just hurting us because the messages just the the gaslighting messages but also my dad just wanted to tie up the divorce quickly and she was going to the lawyers saying that you know he was just this piece of shit bully basically just beating her up every day for years which is just all complete lies she was saying that to the lawyers but she wasn't saying it to other people because they knew that this was just not the truth right so we had that sort of thing to just make us feel even worse to be like why are you doing this like just go away you know take whatever you want and go but you don't need

to keep kicking us while we're down already. You made the decision to cut your mom from your life completely, which I, even though you have so many reasons, even though your parents have done so many things that, and this goes for anybody who deals with a narcissistic parent, there is so much repetitive behavior. It's still really hard to come to the realization and the acceptance that that person's not going to be in your life anymore. How did you make that decision? And also how did you deal with or did you feel any guilt around it at the time I feel guilt at times when other people say it to me you know when they give you those platitudes of oh but it's your mom you know like you've got to let her see your kids you know that's their grandmother things like that

I feel it then and I hate it because it's like yeah I I can't forget that that's my mother but for me I maybe I'm not as nice of a person you know that I don't actually carry that guilt and I think I'm actually lucky in that sense because I'm not weighed down by it because I really just think that this is a protection for myself you know it's almost like physical pain you know like your body locks up it's your body's reaction to pain and it's the same for me I'm just like I'm just protecting myself from pain so no I don't feel guilty you're also protecting your kids though because this is the thing right when you have someone who's a narcissistic parent and you've experienced it all throughout your own childhood you then when you become a parent feel this

immense responsibility to not allow that person to let your kids down because that's what they will do eventually they'll show themselves in the ways that they are and they will never be able to show up in the way of a loving stable consistent grandparent because they don't have the capacity to because they are a narcissist exactly it's interesting that you say you know maybe i'm not a very nice person I don't think that's accurate at all I think you've just made a decision for your own and your family's well-being I think it's also partly because people don't understand they think that like you know oh well you can forgive you know she made a mistake and it's very different when there's one parent who's had an affair and it's like that affair is not

indicative of their entire personality because that does happen as well and relationships are complicated and affairs happen but when it's part of a bigger picture that pertains to a personality disorder then that's a very different story and it's hard for other people who sit outside of you to understand or to know that because they've not experienced the 20 years that came previously it's always given by people that have experienced no trauma and no dysfunction in their lives that are like oh you've got to forgive them you know but it isn't even just that affair like if it was just the affair then of course like you move on you know people make mistakes they're human or they fall in love like whatever but it is all the years of emotional abuse beforehand that is really

why you cut them off it's not because they've made a mistake or they've hurt your feelings by doing this behavior it's all the years beforehand that makes you cut them off and how long has it been now since you haven't had contact with your mom it's been nearly 10 years and sporadically like my siblings have got texas i haven't but it's so much better and that's all I want to say to other people is that it gets so much better as time goes on you know you have some clarity like the smoke clears and they're gone and you're like I can look at this and be like okay might be embarrassing for a little while this because this person is biologically programmed to love you right and they've caused all this pain to you it's embarrassing to sit there with

friends but you're gonna feel so much better without that person who is just never bringing piece to your table has your mum in that 10 years has she ever accepted any blame has she ever tried to make amends has there been any an apology yeah like any attempts or does she see this whole thing as though she's the victim in this I couldn't speak for her anymore because I just don't know I know she has sent messages of I'm sorry but she's also sent messages to one of my siblings that she's dying and then we find out she's not actually dying you know she just wants your attention you know it's I've now got this random disease and you need to speak to me lo and behold there's no disease and so on those occasions I'm just like oh it's it's just manipulation again

what do you think you would do now Monique out of curiosity I know it's a strange rhetorical question but if that was the case and after all this time and you've got no connection that your mum did come back and say that and it turned out to be true do you feel like any part of you needs to go and and see her if she had a disease that you know was maybe going to end her life do you think you would need to have that closure and that wrap up and that final goodbye or do you think you would be okay with just continuing to go through life now as you are I think I've wrapped it up years ago for me I mean I can only speak for myself not my siblings but I don't think it needs to be done because I feel like it might just cause more

pain and I don't even want to cause her pain like it might be really painful for her you know to have to go through because at the end of the day I forgive her because I don't want to carry around anger I don't want to feel shitty about the situation right and so I absolutely forgive her but I don't need to see her for that you know people often think that forgiveness means that you spend all this time with them and that they're in your lives but no it doesn't it just means that you're not hanging on to this anymore now that we've spoken to somebody who has had lived experience. And if you are someone who has been navigating their relationship with a narcissistic parent as well, we hope that that conversation with Monique might be something that you find

similarities in, or you might find some comfort in hearing other people who have been through it as well. I could have spoken to Monique for hours. I hope that if you guys are going through something similar, you took some comfort in that, or you could relate to that in some way. But now let's get into a more detailed chat with Nova. Nova, I was actually gobsmacked at the response we had from the narcissistic episode, but the number of people that wrote saying, can you guys do an episode on narcissism with a family member? I couldn't believe how many people were in these situations. I mean, in your world, how common is having a family member with narcissism? it's very very common uh when you think about it a narcissist much of the time in an intimate

relationship is going to have learned that behavior somewhere not all the time there's sometimes it's just not explainable around how they develop this personality disorder but much of the time it's being role modeled by you know someone at home who is narcissistic themselves who is rewarding them for cheating and lying and teaching them that there are no rules. They should just take what they want and basically teaching them to have no empathy. This is being hardwired or conditioned

into a brain that's still growing. Our brains don't stop growing until we're 25. So this is what they're learning, I guess, at home. It is very, very common. And I would speak to a client in my practice every day, at least one every day, who is struggling with a narcissistic parent, who's really just as an adult coming to terms because they've had that light bulb moment. And someone's mentioned the word narcissist and or they've started Googling their parents

behavior. Why? Because it hurts. They never feel emotion. They never have felt emotionally safe around their parent. They were never allowed to have any boundaries, never allowed to have any needs. And as they look back over their lifespan, they realize that those toxic behaviors, the way they were treated, the way they were abused were consistent over space and time for the entirety of their lives. and they really suffer because they feel this massive sense of obligation to the parent who

birthed them. And that's a debt in the narcissistic parent's eyes. That's a debt you will never pay in full. And a sense of obligation and guilt is instilled in children who have been conditioned their entire lives to meet the needs of the toxic parent. Nova, I would love to know, because you mentioned that obviously it's a trait that can be passed down, like it's taught to our children. But in saying that, I would also assume that there are a lot of people who have narcissistic parents who are not narcissists themselves and have this, as you say, quote unquote, light bulb moment at some point when they start to unpack the many years of hurt that they've experienced. Yes, absolutely. Just because

there's one narcissistic parent does not mean there's going to be a narcissistic child there could be it's more likely than in a household where there is no narcissistic parent narcissistic parents will assign roles to their children so the scapegoat child becomes the dumping ground for the narcissistic parent will never be able to do anything right the golden child will be the the wingman, so to speak, for the narcissistic parent. And this is to put the narcissistic parent at the top of the triangle where children are forever trying to please them. It's basically about creating an organization for maximum narcissistic supply using their own children, whom they objectify just as much as anyone else. So the child who is most likely to become a

narcissist is the golden child. They're rewarded for bad behavior. They're pitted against the scapegoat child who can never do anything right. And of course, that golden child wants to keep their position. So they will sabotage their sibling and join forces with the narcissistic parent to demean them, sometimes very, very covertly. So the child who is most likely to escape and of course not become a narcissist is the scapegoat child who is usually the most intuitive one, the most sensitive one, the one that the narcissistic parent is not able to manipulate so easily. You can have narcissistic parents where there are no children who are narcissistic and a narcissistic parent where most of the children end up being like them for

reasons relating to nature or nurture. Nova, I feel like it's not uncommon for people to have narcissistic traits in some capacity. Maybe it's a one-off, maybe there's a little bit, but there is a difference with narcissistic traits and narcissistic personality disorder or NPD. How do we tell that difference with a family member? Yeah, look, the same way you would tell with anyone, only it's going to be more difficult for you as their child because you've been conditioned. You've never been allowed to have any boundaries. You've never been allowed to have any needs. And you've been taught or conditioned

to believe your entire life that this is what love looks like. Love is conditional upon meeting someone else's needs. So I guess going back to our first episode where we talked about the intimate partner relationship and the fact that you're never going to get a diagnosis or rarely simply because the narcissist doesn't believe there's anything wrong with themselves. It's everyone around the person who finds themselves in therapy, including their own children. So as I said with intimate partners, it's about looking at consistent patterns of behavior over space and time, looking at the complete lack of empathy and all those traits associated with NPD and trusting your instincts given that you are never going to get a diagnosis. The difference between someone

who has narcissism or is a pathological narcissist and someone who's having a bad day or might just be a bit of a grumpy old person is that they're consistent patterns of behavior. They're not isolated incidents. I'll just touch on a couple of strategies that a narcissistic parent will use. One of them is parental alienation, trying to get that child to either not develop a loving bond with the abused parent, not developing a loving bond at all, or to destroy the love that they have for that parent. This is done through coercive control on such a passive level where they will insidiously imply perhaps, or that the other parent has mental health issues, maybe. Maybe the child was there when the abusive parent baited the other parent into reacting and crying

uncontrollably, hysterical even. And then that parent, the abusive parent, took the kids out for ice cream or to take them away from the parent they're trying to make out to their child is a toxic one. These things sit in the children's mind because the actual abuser is cool and calm and collected. They've just taken them out for ice cream. The other parent is in their eyes, you know, behaving erratic and frantic and maybe even a little scary. So this is what is being set up in the child's mind. Now that is a classic example of coercive control. I think as well, this is so interesting and mostly because when we have spoken about narcissists before, it has always been in terms of romantic relationships. And we are very aware of the impact

and the damage that that can have on your self-confidence, on your feelings of whether you are worthy of whether you will be loved again. Like it can be truly damaging to be in a relationship with someone who's a narcissist. But I can only imagine that the damage of having a parent who is a narcissist can be equally, if not worse, in that that is your framework for what love looks like for your entire childhood. And I guess growing up these feelings of being invalidated or not good enough or feeling unstable because there's this lack of consistency. What are the telltale signs as a personality trait for the victim that they may have a narcissistic parent? As with any narcissist, it's all about impression management, making sure they

look good to the outside world and all abuse shall remain behind closed doors and shall not be spoken about. Children don't even know that it is abuse often. I hear so many stories where the narcissistic parent will take their young child to counselling and sit out in the waiting room playing the role of the dutiful parent while their child goes in to be counseled for the effects of the abuse of that parent. They go to counseling to fix what's wrong with them, they're being told, even though any behavioral issues or depression, anxiety are related to never being able to please and having the goalposts shifted and being abused, essentially. They grow up believing they're problem adults there's something wrong with them and the parent uses that the fact that

they've taken their child to counseling to you know once again put that image out to society that their mother or father of the year so children of narcissistic parents grow up with massive anxiety because they cannot predict the consequences of their actions one minute you'll bring home a report card for instance full of A's one B oh my goodness that's amazing the next time you'll be punished because there was a B so you can't predict your behavior whether it's going to be a good thing or bad thing they're forever hyper vigilant to that parent's moods and they grow up with these exact same anxiety disorders often self-medicating with alcohol and drugs Do you feel like a child that grows up with a narcissistic parent is more inclined and more

likely to then go on a date or be attracted to a narcissist? And then having said that in the relationship world, once you've dated a narcissist, especially if you're under 25, are you more likely to continue to date people with narcissistic traits? It's very common. Looking at the scapegoat child in particular who was never allowed to have any needs, could never ever please. It's going to be very normal for them, familiar to not seek out, we never seek out a relationship that's toxic. It's that they bypass healthy relationships. They will be boring. Their nose will be too big. There'll be something wrong with them. What their subconscious is really screaming at them is they're not toxic there's no goalposts to outrun there's no roller coaster to climb aboard so healthy

relationships are so foreign and unfamiliar to them and they find themselves in relationships where they have to try so hard for just breadcrumbs of conditional love of course the golden child who's more likely to become narcissistic is unfortunately going to go seeking relationships where they can manipulate people to boost their own ego, to meet their own needs. And perpetuate the same thing that was done to them in other ways. I think in terms of children who then grow into adults, for a lot of people who grow up with a parent who's narcissistic and you mentioned that light bulb moment where they realize that maybe this is what it is that they've been dealing with their entire life. As an adult who has realized that their parent is

narcissistic, how does one create boundaries with that? And how does one navigate a relationship with a narcissistic parent? Yeah, it's incredibly hard for adult children or teenage children. How do you manage boundaries with someone who has conditioned you your entire life that you owe them? We're taught by society that you respect your parents. Your parents love you. The people who love you are at home. And when society is impacting on your belief system, it's incredibly hard to put a boundary in place with a toxic parent who has conditioned you to never be able to say no, in other words, have no boundaries. So it is going to be incredibly hard, but you have to do it while it feels bad. There is no easy way to do this. For instance,

you might say to a toxic mother, we would prefer it if you called before you come over. Well, a toxic mother is maybe just going to ignore you, just rock up at your house and own the place, tell you what's dirty and what's wrong with your parenting, perhaps try and put roadblocks between you and your partner. Or if you enforce that boundary, they're going to make you feel guilty. You explain to me why. I'm your mother. So this is what you have to expect when you put the boundaries in place. But as I say to my beautiful clients, boundaries are just our self-care. They're not about the other person. They're not about punishment or revenge. They're about self-care. So the only people who have a problem with your boundaries are the very people you need them for.

So getting back to the good of boundaries, boundaries are useless unless we have consequences. If you lower your boundary for everyone who wants to walk all over it, you may as well not have any because your boundaries only need to be enforced with the people who want to use you. So that means parents, perhaps you say, you're not welcome in my circle for, you know, I'm going to have a hiatus, a break for a few weeks when they've been manipulating you, ringing you 10 times a day to gossip about, you know, Uncle Bob and how mean and horrible he's been, you know, and basically pit you against other family members.

It's about boundaries and following that up with consequences and that's hard when you are trauma-bonded to the toxic cycle, the ups and downs, the rollercoaster with your toxic parent. But what if, I feel like this is going to be starting to happen more and more with how open people are about the conversations about narcissism. I feel like now people in their teens and young adults are going to be coming to this realization quicker than we probably did in our generation because we didn't have access to the information. So if you're a young adult or a teenager, you might still be at school, but even if you're, you might be at uni, right? Like 18,

19, 20, there's still these formative years and there's still the years that you so heavily rely on your family and your parents. I mean, I feel like I'm 36 and you never outgrow that. When something goes wrong, you want to call your parents. You still want to have that connection. But I know we discuss in romantic relationships, if you have this direct relationship with a narcissist, cut them off, right? Like you go cold turkey. You don't have them in your life anymore. But you can't really do that if you're a teenager or a young adult with a parent who you do rely on. Maybe it's financially, maybe it's to literally put the roof over your head. what do you do in that situation it's very very difficult there is no easy answer here

the parent has control so the guilt and the obligation of ever having any needs of their own normally keeps them there so if a teenager out there is actually able to assess this situation and I guess look from the outside in, which once again is incredibly difficult. Get support, speak to another family member, speak to your school counsellor, but talk about it. Ring Kids Helpline, there are services out there. But yeah, I think it's about getting lots of support because we also need to be mindful that a teenager is going to need support to identify what's happening to them.

And it may not be a narcissistic parent. It may be a parent who's just very strict, who that child, you know, seems as, you know, a bit over the top and not narcissistic at all. So this is where we need to support them to actually identify what's going on for them simply because they're a teenager and, you know, they've got so many different things going on in their life. That's also a really important point to make. I do think these terms are thrown around too loosely sometimes.

and I would hate for somebody younger maybe or anyone really to hear this and throw that term around yeah my parents are narcissists if maybe they are just more on the strict side and it's conservative who knows what it is but I do think and I do worry sometimes that these terms do get thrown around a little bit loosely. But I also I think it's an interesting one because I mean there will be people who are young who listen to this who feel as though maybe that they are dealing with that now but I guess in terms of my experience and not personal experience by any means, but the people in my network, my friends who are now adults, who have their own children, their own nucleus family, and they are coming to or have come to the realization over the past 10

years that their parents are narcissistic. Maybe it's their mom, maybe it's their dad, maybe it's both of them. And I think of one relationship in mind where it's been so hard for her because there is no conversation. There is no explaining to your mom the ways in which they've hurt you or the ways in which they've failed you as a mum, because it is always met with, oh, you think I didn't do a good enough job. Oh, you think I'm the problem. I tried my hardest. The guilt. Yes. And it feels like guilt. And I know that this plays a part in romantic relationships, but it feels like the guilt is such a parental weapon. It's an even stronger parental weapon than it plays into other relationships. Absolutely. There's an acronym

that we use in narcissistic abuse recovery with all relationships but particularly with the we call them acons and that's another acronym a-c-o-n adult child of a narcissist they they have support groups of their own out there on social media but the fog f-o-g fear obligation guilt those are the three weapons that the narcissistic parent uses to make sure that their child that they own that's their property never abandons them. They can do whatever they want and that child will be there to nurture them while they remain toxic because of course they only get worse as they age. But knowing that this is the case and knowing that there are these very specific techniques that are used by narcissistic parents, how do people put boundaries in place? And I know we

say that consequences are important to those boundaries, but it seems as though it is almost impossible. It seems as though the outcome is simply that you may have to cut contact with a parent if you want to live a peaceful life. Yes. And that is the reality of dealing with a narcissistic parent. Most people, as you just used in that example, Laura, you try and talk to a narcissist about what they've done to you. They're going to start crying, particularly a narcissistic mother will start crying everything I've done for you and that's it discussion ended because you don't want to upset even more an old lady so that's manipulative in itself they will project it back on to you you were the problem you're ungrateful everything I did for you and

you feel that conditioned guilt and obligation oh my goodness you know I just have to I just have to forget about this because they really did drive me to soccer practice that time and you know what they actually did put a roof over my head and and give me food each night all of these things that should be taken for granted they will never acknowledge what they did to you never if they do they're not a narcissist they're not narcissistic then boundaries are everything and consequences are going to mean distancing yourself from that parent doesn't mean you don't see them forever but it has to be on your terms with your boundaries in place because they're going to continue to hurt you and you will never heal just because you're related to them through

DNA does not give anyone the right to abuse you. I would love to talk about a chapter in your book, Fake Love, where you do talk about co-parenting with a narcissist, because it is a question we get a lot from our listeners that they write in saying that they're co-parenting with a narcissist. How do you deal with it? What's the most important thing, which on surface level, I would say, you don't involve the kids, but what do you think is the most important thing for somebody to know going into a co-parenting arrangement with a narcissist? The most important thing to know is that you can't. You cannot co-parent with someone who is actively trying

to counter-parent everything that you do. You will know that you were never able to have a reasonable discussion with this person, consistent patterns of behaviour over space and time when you were together. It's not reasonable to think you're now going to be able to sit there have coffee with them, discussing what's in the best interests of the children when you're leaving them, committing in their eyes the most egregious wound to their ego that you could ever commit. So they're going to use the children to get to you, to engage in litigation abuse,

post-separation abuse. They're going to want 24-hour-a-day access to you because they care about the kids. No, to ruin your day at the drop of a hat, to trigger you. This is your abuser. They know they have that power from your conditioned responses. So it's about boundaries. You cannot co-parent. You ask them for something for the children, you're telling them what not to do. For instance, as this is an example I use in Fake Love. I just need everyone to know that it's not gender specific okay because i know men contact me all the time going me too me too i know and that's why i've devoted a chapter specifically to men male victims in the book but just for ease i'm going to say mom and dad so mom's working back she's getting absolutely no child support

and little johnny needs braces okay and the dentist has told him that his teeth are crooked and he will have much greater confidence if he gets his teeth fixed. Now, mum either has got no orders in place or very, very sloppy, flexible orders, which you cannot have with a narcissist. And she gets on the phone, her arms shaking because she knows what's about to happen. And she says to the narcissist, little Johnny needs braces. Now, do you think the narcissist is going to say, oh my goodness, thank you for bringing this to my attention. His teeth are crooked. Which account would you like me to put the money into? Or do you think he's going to say something along the lines of, if he answers at all, strings you out for a few weeks before he

answers the email whilst you're trying to get him little Johnny in very quickly. I don't think there's anything wrong with his teeth. You want his teeth to be fixed. You go fix them yourself. And if he did say yes, he would make it so incredibly difficult to get payments. You'd just end up paying it yourself. So orders, orders in place and minimal contact, grey rock, we call it, where you give absolutely no reaction to them. I strongly advise my clients who are having this, and I speak to many every day, to block them on your phone.

it is only going to make you ill to trigger you even if it's not them that's calling even if you're feeling a little empowered because you ignored them to begin with when your phone goes off it could be them so you're going to be triggered it can ruin your day at work because you can just never get away from their control they will use the family court to extend the domestic violence. They will weaponize their lawyer to punish you. The children are just collateral damage to punish you for being able to heal and not pining for them and begging them to come back. When you block them, if there's an emergency, here's my mother's number. Here's my best friend's number. Here's my partner's number. Here's a parenting app. So you've got your

parenting app where you're recording all of their communication, which I believe goes straight to the court, and they've got an emergency contact number. If it's just about the children, why should it matter? But it will. How, as the healthy and safe parent, do you either communicate what's happening in terms of the other parent, like communicate that it is narcissism that you're dealing with? Or do you just have to try and not address it? So that way, I guess- Turning one parent against the other. Yeah, because otherwise you're almost playing into the game as well if you start calling the other parent a narcissist and name calling. How do you be the bigger person whilst navigating

this relationship with someone who is a narcissist? Yeah, it's a precarious place to be because the narcissist is going to be doing what narcissists do. They lie and they manipulate and they're going to be doing that to their children. And this is the painful reality for parents who share children with a toxic ex. So I think it's incredibly important, even at a very, very young age, to get those children into counselling

where they have someone who is seen not to have an agenda because children don't grow to hate the parent, especially when they're quite little, when they're abused, they grow to hate themselves. so as you said we don't want them to think we're like that we don't want so we don't never speak in a derogatory way about the other parent which puts such a lot of pressure on the the child's shoulders so yes get them into counseling and just be an empathic ear for that child where they can come and offload and be there to pick up the pieces you know allow them to talk to you but

I think having a household that's completely different from the other parents where they don't have to walk on eggshells, they can, you know, experience a little bit of a break. I can only imagine how hard it would be for parents to kind of navigate this because on one hand, you would want to explain to your kids what it is that you're dealing with and what they're dealing with. But also on the other side of that is the very, very precarious situation where you then are weaponizing a situation and you're in no way is that then make you the narcissist. But it is such a tricky situation where you want to protect children, but also give them enough information that they are safe from the environment that they have to be put into.

Yeah. And once again, I think it gets back to having someone who is not seen as having an agenda, having a third party they trust, because that narcissistic parent is going to hear everything you say he or she will manipulate it out of the children they'll be asked to report back every time they've come home from your house and they're going to distort it so you will be seen as that person who has an agenda of course of course they don't like the other parent that mom and dad are fighting so of course she or he's not going to say anything nice so yeah i think it's really important to get someone they trust that's just there for them nova thank you so much for coming and being a part of the podcast and sharing with us this second part of dealing with a

narcissist in your life. And I know, like we said, we had so many questions around how to deal with it when it is a family member. I think it is so much more complex and the layers of it run so much deeper than just in a romantic relationship, which is already hard enough as it is. But we appreciate your time and we appreciate your expertise. And if anybody wants to get Nova's book, it is called Fake Love. And it really does deep dive into all these different types of relationships and how to overcome narcissistic abuse. Thank you so much for having me. It's always a pleasure. And if anyone benefits from my knowledge out there, then it's all worth it because it's such an insidious type of abuse that we often don't see. And there's just not enough

support or awareness out there. So I'm just so happy that you've asked me to be a part of your podcast. Thank you. Thanks, Nova. We'll be right back.