Life Uncut - Not the date to celebrate - Uncut with Taylah Gray

Episode Date: January 25, 2023

Today's bonus episode is about Jan 26. Currently a public holiday recognised as 'Australia Day.' But Invasion Day is a day of mourning for First Nations people and many other Australians.  Joining us is proud Wiradjuri woman Taylah Gray who is currently completing her PhD on native title and sovereignty. In this episode we unpack what Taylah's childhood looked like with a particular insight into her education and how she became a lawyer and started her doctorate.  Taylah articulates the complexities of 'celebrating' what it is to be Australian and how the date represents a long history of genocide and disposition for First Nations people. Tay also suggests ways in which we can be true allies and  show support. Something that was particularly nuanced for us was the conversation surrounding the pressure that First Nations people can feel when they're expected to be the mouthpiece for every political issue in this country; the assumption of being educated about every legal issue affecting Black people.  To show our gratitude for Taylah's knowledge and time, Life Uncut has donated $1000 to the Aboriginal Legal Service. You can check them out here: https://www.alsnswact.org.au/ If you'd like to follow Taylah on instagram you can find her here: https://www.instagram.com/taylah_gray_/?hl=en Always was, always will be Aboriginal landSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Life Uncut podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respect to their elders, past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today. This episode is recorded on Gadigal land of the Aurora Nation. Hi guys and welcome back to a very special bonus episode of Life Uncut. Now as so many of you, I'm sure all of you know, today is January 26 and across Australia it is a public holiday known as Australia Day. For our First Nations people and for so many Australians, it's a day that has come to be known as Invasion Day.

Now, we wanted to create this episode to be able to hand over our platform to a First Nations person to speak about why January 26 is such a hugely painful and problematic day for our First Nations friends. January 26 marks the 1788 landing of the First Fleet in Sydney Cove, where the British flag was raised. However, for First Nations people, this day marks a long history of genocide and dispossession. now we wanted to bring this episode to you and it was one that we have learned so much from as well unfortunately Brit can't join us on this and despite how hard we tried and all the efforts we put in to try and have her on this episode technology got in the way we had so many technical issues with trying to record because Brit is currently in Scotland as I know you're all aware but we still wanted to pull this episode together regardless we are joined on today's podcast

episode by proud Wiradjuri woman, Taylor Gray. Taylor is a phenomenal force to be reckoned with. She is wonderful and generous in the time that she shared with us. She is a lawyer and she is also completing her PhD on native title and sovereignty. We have just had the absolute horror show of trying to record this episode, but we have pursued. Tay, it's honestly such a pleasure to have you. I would love to know a little bit more about your childhood. You are a Wiradjuri woman. What does that mean to you? And also, how did that impact you when you were a kid? So I just want to acknowledge that I'm on one of rural country and pay my respects to their elders past, present, is, was, and always will be Aboriginal land. I had a beautiful childhood.

Yeah, I grew up on Wiradjuri country, which is the centre of the universe, but other mob would dispute that for sure. But I come from a big family. I love a big family. I'm one of seven and I'm the middle child. Grew up all my life on Wiradjuri country up until year 12. So I did my schooling there from kinder to year six and I always knew I wanted to be a lawyer but you know when it comes to year 11 and 12 I failed every legal studies assessment and assignment but I was determined I knew I wanted to be a lawyer so I went to uni anyway and I didn't get the marks that I wanted so you know I decided to do a program called your pug which is an awobical word for pathway and I found myself at the front of a protest one time because my lecturer said you

know and all of our lecturers were First Nations people and she cut the class short and she said to us all right class we're going to finish up a little bit early today because we're going to go head into town for a protest for the forced closures of Aboriginal communities and you know being a Dubbo girl we never had these massive rallies or protests the way Newcastle and Sydney do so I was like I'm going to go along and so we went along and I found myself at the front of the march holding a sign you know that says stop the forced closure of Aboriginal communities and it was right then and there that like relit that flame you know that fire inside my belly where I was like hey you know what maybe I am maybe I am smart enough to do law and so that's the path

I chose you know and being this little double girl you know all the way off country moved to a whole new town away from family I had no family in a tropical country yeah my family was so supportive as well and you know they said if things get too tough like come back but but my dad always said you know just do your best give it a crack and yeah I ended up in Newcastle and I've loved it. What was it about doing law? Like, what was it about that as a kid? Because I feel like that's such a, it's such a serious career path for someone who's so young to think like, that's what I want to do with myself. What was it about law that really attracted you? You know, ever since I was a little girl, I think it would have been like year three. I remember

being in the lounge room with one of my friends and, you know, we're probably only about like nine or 10 or whatever. And there was a murder case that happened in Dubbo and we were disputing, you know whether this person should go to jail or not and I can't they were talking shit like I do not know what I was saying that it was a real murder trial but we were just making up this case as we went along and ever since that moment I knew I wanted to be a lawyer but what fueled it was my dad he was a proud Wiradjuri man and he was a stolen generation survivor and he used to tell me all you know the terrible things that happened to him in the homes the racism the abuse you know that he experienced when he was a young fella and you know growing up older and I was always a

person of you know fairness and balance you know and when you think of the law you think of scales and you know I was like that's what I want to be I want to be a person of fairness and balance and I you know want to promote that for my people. I think for a lot of people when we hear about the Stolen Generation it's so easy to think of it as being something that was a long time in the past and when you say that your father was part of the Stolen Generation it really makes you stop and realise just how recent this was and the reasons why this is still so incredibly painful. What was that like for you growing up

and hearing these stories from your father and hearing him share his experiences growing up as a First Nations person? How did that impact you? You know, my father was a great role model, you know, and he didn't tell me a lot about what happened in the homes because it was very traumatic for him to talk about. But, you know, he gave me these little stories

that he told me what happened in there, you know, sitting at the back of the classroom having his teacher ignore his questions for the mere fact that he was a black man it stuck with me it you know it was entrenched in me and it even makes you a break you right I think because you can use that as fuel or you know you can become a victim of it and me and my father we chose to become warriors it made warriors out of us but we got to remember like no child should be subjected to that you know we don't have to be strong all the time our people are soft our people are peaceful you know we're caring and nurturing we don't have to be tough all the time. And yeah, that's one thing my father told me. It sounds like your

father was such a role model for you. Did you have anybody else in your family or in your community who modelled the career path for you? I mean, you've gone into being a lawyer. Was there anybody who inspired you to take this career path? I didn't have anybody in my family that did law, no. I was one of the first to do that. I was one of the first to go to university. But what I did have behind me was a whole community like supporting me and, you know, just even going to university everybody all my mob everybody back home was like you are so deadly like that is the coolest thing and it didn't even matter what I was studying they were just so proud anyway but as I got to university and Dr Charlene Leroy Dyer who's a Koori woman as well she pulled

me aside one time you know she really created the path for me because she was like Taylor you know what you submitted this assignment but I think you can do a little better and it was past the due date and when she said that to me I said to myself Taylor you did rush this and you can do a little better and so you know she let me reset that assignment and I end up getting I think I end up getting a like distinction or a high distinction that you know I originally got a pass for and I think just people believing in you it just encourages me to do a lot more because I thought you know what I can do anything all these people believe in me I can I can do anything doesn't matter what it is whether it's PE teaching or social work or law I've got a whole community

behind me but yeah it was those little things that that got me through well did you find it all that like I mean I guess the Australian education system for so many people it's set up in a very specific way and it only caters to a specific way of learning I mean I know you mentioned earlier that you went and did a different course after your year 11 and year 12 how did that help you like how was that more catered towards you and what impact did that have in your learning oh it was the best thing I could have done it was the best thing I could have ever done and I think i spoke briefly like i did that pathways program called your pub which is an awabika word for pathway and all the staff were first nations people all of my teachers and lecturers majority

of them were first nations people we had a safe space to learn you know at the walutuka institute which is you know a massive building that was structured to suit our needs our ways there were free books like you know there was internet everywhere and i didn't have that growing up in year 11 and 12 and there was a dedicated space purely set aside for us and i love this course i loved being a teacher. I love learning from these, you know, black academics so much that I ended up going back to teach in that program itself. I think I've been teaching in the program for about three to four years now, but I love it. It had a great impact on me so much that I went back and I'm teaching other students, you know, how to write academically and things like that.

Taylor, today being Australia Day in inverted commas, it's January 26. How do you as a First Nations woman feel about not just the term Australia Day but the day in itself? So January 26 like in its current form it's only existed since 1994 which isn't that long ago so you know this was originally the foundation day that's what it was called or you know first landing day by ex convicts but it's pretty disheartening because you think about thousands of First Nations people dying in conflict you know from settler violence thousands of you know First Nations people dying from diseases you know we suffered so much on this day we you know there was a loss of cultural traditions languages kinship rituals ceremonies you know we lost it all we lost all that we had

but we're still going strong and you know for settlers to turn around and put Australia Day on this day you know this is the beginning of the massacres of peaceful people we've been here all along we didn't leave our land to inflict violence on others like we've been here from the start you know and I celebrate so much beauty in this country because there is a lot there is a lot of beauty from the land to its people but this day is a very very dark twisted day and there's a lot of historical hurt that's carried on to contemporary mob and that historical hurt is it's still felt today it's very hurtful there's been a conversation for many years around changing the date do you think that that's a good enough solution or do you think that there isn't really a date that would

allow for a celebration considering everything that happened to the first nation's people i think there is a day of celebration you know it's going to come whether we're ready or mature enough as a nation you know to have that day i don't think we are just yet but there is there is it's coming change is coming there and there should be a day of celebration but it should be i think for what it's worth on a day you know where a treaty has been achieved because you've got to think about what a treaty is it's a promise between two people to take the best possible care of one another who wouldn't want to celebrate that and how far off do you think we are from that and what needs to be achieved and what progress needs to be achieved like where do we sit on that

in a lot of ways well you know there's a lot of ways you know how we can achieve it we have to look at our educational system we have to look at the legal system we have to look at the health system how do you feel about the other side of this when australians will say but they want to celebrate australia day because they're being patriotic it's a day for them to celebrate the country how does that make you feel as a first nations person when we think about this patriotic australia you know when people they have this express devotion and vigorous support of this concept of you know australianism and i think back to the words of the activist malcolm x when he says you have to be very careful when introducing the truth to a nation that has been so brainwashed

about the truth about itself because they will reject the truth initially but one day it'll wake up and it'll realise that it was never colonised and it was never settled peacefully. You know I remember Beau Spearham, he sat on a podcast in 2021 and he spoke about the Waterloo Creek massacres which was led by the New South Wales government. There was about 300 to 500 deaths of First Nations people and it was excused by the justice system because originally what happened is that First Nations people were not even allowed to give evidence in court and then you have Professor Lyndall Ryan from the University of Newcastle and she created this explicit right in your face massacre map of all the massacres that happened in Australia and you know I remember reading one

of those and clicking on it and you can click on you know the massacre site and what happened there and how many were killed and I think it might have been to my people like to the Wiradjuri people where colonists were boiling our people's skulls you know in conflict when you ask me how I feel about this well we can't be proud as a nation until there are meaningful reparations like through the land you know through the injustice for our people because we lost so much like how can people express this devotion and rigorous support of this patriotic Australia when this nation was built on violence. It's unbelievable. And I think also the part that for me is so shocking is even in school, you're given such a vanilla version of what happened within Australian

history. You're given such a watered down experience of what the Indigenous experience was like. And I think it's only as we've gotten older and as we've all become self-educated, speaking to people like you, doing podcasts, really opening ourselves up to educating ourselves on what happened and why there is so much anger that you really start to think, okay, Australia Day is not a day for celebration. And I know that there would be so many people listening to this who are similar to me. You know, when I was in my late teens, early twenties, I did celebrate Australia Day because I was very ignorant to it. And I hadn't gone out and sought these conversations out nor did I understand what it was that I was even celebrating and then I think

for a lot of people you think back on that and like there's a lot of guilt that surrounds that as well for you personally and for the conversations that you've had with people from your own community what's the solution I mean I know that we spoke about that there could be a day it coming at some point in the future where there would be a celebration but what would need to be resolved in order to get to that point? I think the concept of treaty, you know, all of the disputes always come back to land. There is so much unsettling history

and even in contemporary society, you know, like with us, there's just so much that hasn't been settled yet. It all comes back to the land. Are we the only country that doesn't have a treaty? Like, are we the only country that doesn't have a treaty with their Indigenous owners? We're the only Commonwealth country that doesn't have a treaty with its Indigenous owners, yes.

But you've got to remember, like, even the countries we're treaties. A lot of them were dishonored or, you know, fraudulence, especially Canada, especially, you know, New Zealand. There were so many problems in that as well. Do you think that in your lifetime, do you think you've seen change? Like, I mean, people are having these conversations. These conversations weren't being had, say, 15 years ago, but do you feel like things are changing? Yeah, change is coming. I mean, you look at, you can look at some of these massive corporations like Cayman. I mean, they've refused to selling Australia Day, like items. You know, there's some

uproar in the community about it as well but you know there's black folks and there's white folks and they're screaming like yes this is the best thing ever like well done you know there are changes when you have big corporations who are backing what first nations people are saying we have white people wanting to talk about it we have my white mates not celebrating it and you know sticking up for us as well the change is coming and i hope i hope the rest you know the others don't get left behind i mean not only just like shops not selling it like there are there are companies now who don't treat it like it's a public holiday like you have the option to come to work I think for a lot of people they work on Australia Day now because it's treated as

though it's no other day yeah but I'm mindful of as well like of the capitalist system and I think we need to value rest a lot more in this country but we can do that on another day you know it doesn't have to be a day of celebration I mean you know the same way the ANZACs to a certain degree I guess we do celebrate them but we mourn them we mourn their loss we mourn all you know they've endured for us you know to sit here and have this conversation today and that's the way we see our people you know on that day we we've endured so much we're allowed to mourn and I think this whole country should mourn with us if we are to come together. For those people listening to this who want to support and want to be a positive influence in this space how can somebody be a true

ally? I think listening I think listening is the biggest thing I love this meditation called you know and it's by first nations woman and one thing she says is that first nations people have always been comfortable in silence because we just listen and at one stage i think we were the world's best listeners but i think people just need to listen to what we have to say because we have so much to give to this country we love this country we have so much to offer we haven't been able to show the world what we can truly do because we haven't been free enough to do it i I mean, we're the most incarcerated people in the world. We're the sickest people, you know, in our own country.

We're the poorest people in our own country. But we have so much to offer. We have so much love in our communities. That's why our community, you know, our houses are always overcrowded. We have high rates of overcrowding in our houses. It's because we want everybody, you know, under our roof and to live fairly. But there's so much people can do. And talking, like sitting at the table, you know, just with your family and having a conversation, that's where it starts.

It all starts at the dinner table, just having a conversation. it starts with reparations you know give back to first nations businesses talk about it at school you know talk about it at high you know high school and university talk about it with your employees like how you know all those type of things showing up when we hold events rally with us i feel like so many people are seeking out more information like for the most part people do not want to be ignorant anymore we want to be better educated and to learn more about the truth of Australia's history and you said on your own Instagram in one of your posts that the current educational system

within Australia isn't really designed to help black people thrive and you yourself went and did a secondary education course after you were 11 and 12. Do you think that education, but specifically education that is for and designed for First Nations people is the answer? Yeah, yeah, no, for sure. And like even during my high school years, like I never had access to wi-fi you know to learn and to research and things like that of course I had my phone but

there was laptops and things like that and reading books I remember my father used to drop me down to the library just so I could read law books because we couldn't afford it or I didn't have wi-fi I'd sit on the computers and just research but it's access you know accessibility you know to educational resources and providing a safe spot and even after school I remember we had this program after school you know where they provided food for us and you know drinks and would sit around and we and would do our homework and there were mentors there that would mentor us and you know show us how to do things that would show us how to write an essay and it's the same way you know you have to carry this all the way from primary school to high school to higher education

because yeah if I didn't have that I don't know where I'd be if it wasn't for education like Nelson Mandela said it best it's the most powerful weapon you can use to change the world and that's I was like maybe I should do a PhD and maybe I should move into civil law where I can change you know more for our people and not just worry about my rights as you know there's a bigger picture to this and I want to know everything with your PhD that you're studying like how far are you into it I'm in my third year it goes four years how are you finding it it's good I love it I love learning if I could spend my whole day in a library I would I love reading so much you're doing it on native title and sovereignty what's the end goal with it I want to teach I think I

want to work in parliament you know maybe I'll open up a law firm one day I know for sure I want to work in parliament you know and I want to rid this capitalist system I'm sick of people you know my mother is a hard worker she's a white woman she works like seven days a week and I said mom this isn't normal like the end goal is just fucking equality for everything and rid this capitalist system and living off the land and not hoarding over toilet paper and how is this even a thing like or I sit on the riverbank at times and I just think I wonder what my old people would be doing if those ships never came because it was so fair I think about it often like we perfected society everybody ate everybody was looked after you know and we look at the western system and

you look at how they treat their older people you know once they can't work anymore in this capitalist system they put them in a home and it's like our people never did that our people were the knowledge holders we looked after them so well and the young too like we valued our youth because they were the leaders of tomorrow. Tay, you've been so generous with sharing your experience. And I mean, I think it's important to say as well that this is your experience and there may be other people

who don't have the exact same feelings or views that you have. Do you ever feel that there is a responsibility in representing and speaking for your community? Yeah, exactly. And I don't want to misrepresent. And I know like Stenny is one woman, but behind me, there's thousands of other Blackfellas as well.

and they're probably thinking that's not how we feel or you know you should have said this but it is it's difficult and it's tiring because you know I think that's the privilege that white fellas get you know when they show up in rooms they show up as individuals but when black fellas they show up they walk in the streets whereas a collective we represent all black fellas and we have to carry ourselves with integrity and we always have to be on point with everything we do because we're often criticized more largely that you know in the media and by other people in the broader public as well I think white fellas get the privilege of carrying that individualism where black fellas don't you know we come as 10 hundred not that being young is a burden in itself but I

think you know I get a lot of older people that come to me as well and they're like oh Taylor like what should we do with this and I've got 50 year old women reaching out Laura saying Taylor what are you voting for the voice it becomes emotionally taxing at time but I want people to share I want to share the knowledge that I have and I want the broader public to know but I want to do it in a way that's graceful and you know that doesn't hurt anybody in an effective way I guess people think that black educators as well like we know all the answers some things I'm just like I've got no idea I can tell you about native title like I mean that in itself is almost a form of racism that there's this expectation that you should know everything that you should also be the

mouthpiece for your entire community my family my history my ancestors they're Italian and I know nothing about my ancestry and where I came from and how they came here and the policies that allowed them to immigrate here I know absolutely nothing about it but no one would ever expect that of me and I think because you are a First Nations person that there is this expectation that you understand and know so much. Everything about Indigenous topics and we're often like segued into it like only Indigenous affairs and it's like well hey I'm actually a lawyer and I know stuff about this it doesn't have to be black related all the time and I think that's what white people you know have another benefit of it's like you know there can be individuals and they can

know one certain topic they're not expected to know all the rules about white australia or policies or the government that you know they're founded upon you know like legislation and things like that the government parliament that you know you don't have to know all about that but blackfellas do i just want to say we are so grateful for you coming on and being a part of the podcast for sharing your stories for sharing your not just your personal experiences but also for representing your own community and for educating us on why Jan 26 is such a painful day for so many people. We also wanted to show our thanks by giving a $1,000 donation to a First Nations charity that you think are doing amazing work, a charity that you support. Could you let

us know what that charity is and some of the wonderful work that they do? Yeah, it'll have to be the Aboriginal Legal Service. I think they're half charity, half government funded, but they're so under-resourced, but gosh, they do a damn good job for what, you know, all the funding that they get. It's quite limited. And, you know, being an ex-ALS, Aboriginal Legal Service lawyer as well, like I've been through the hard yards and seen what they go through, like the lawyers, the clients, and they need more funding as well. If people are choosing to donate on Invasion Day, then I highly recommend donating there. Aboriginal Legal Service, for sure. Taylor, thank you so much. And for anybody who wants to find Taylor,

we're going to put all of your information, our show notes, your Instagram. You'll also be able to find her in a library somewhere so you can go and look for her there as well. Thanks for having me. That is it from us. We have one more Batch Uncut episode, which is going to be dropping this week for the finale episode. And then next week, Life Uncut will be back to normal programming. Britt will be back. We will be back in the same room together and everything will be as it should be for the rest of forever. And also Brittany has a boyfriend, so we are definitely going to talk about that. But anyway, guys, that is it from us. We hope that today has been a day of reflection

for you and you know the drill. Tell your mom, tell your dad, tell your dog and share the love because we love love! We'll be right back.