Life Uncut - People Pleasers Anonymous! Better Boundaries with Terri Cole

Episode Date: January 30, 2024

Hey Lifers,Are you a people pleaser? Do you say yes to far too many 'favours' when you'd like to be able to say no?Setting boundaries is something that we all know we should do, but when it comes to the people who we love and care about, it can be a lot easier said than done. Joining the podcast is psychotherapist and relationship empowerment expert Terri Cole. Terri joined the podcast in June of 2022 for an episode on cheating. You can listen to it here! Today Terri shares her insight into everything surrounding boundaries.We chat about: Saying yes when you want to say no costs the relationship Why we don't want to disappoint people but we end up being people pleasers Having good boundaries will protect you emotionally Disordered boundaries and co-dependency The difference between control and having boundaries when trust has been broken Healthy parent-child relationship boundaries Why you shouldn't be best friends with your child You can find more of Terri here!You can get her new book here.   If you have an question please send it on it to life uncut podcast on Instagram hereJoin us on tiktok Or join the facebook group here Tell your mum, tell your dad, tell your dog, tell your friend and share the love because WE LOVE LOVE! xxSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Life Uncut acknowledges the traditional custodians of country whose lands were never ceded. We pay our respects to their elders past and present. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. This episode was recorded on Darug Walamutta land. Hi guys and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Laura. And I'm Brittany. And we have such a freaking good and also very important episode for you guys today. We are interviewing the one and only Terri Cole.

Now, if you don't know who Terri Cole is, she is a psychotherapist based out of New York. We've had the privilege of interviewing her once before. And on that episode, we spoke all around cheating and can you overcome cheating in a relationship, the effects that cheating can have on a relationship. Basically, we did cheating from the inside out on that episode. and it was freaking amazing. But what we're talking about on today's episode is Terry Cole's speciality. It is the thing that she has written multiple books on. One of them was a

bestselling book called Boundary Boss. And that is, ding, ding, ding, ding, we are talking about boundaries. The reason why I think this is so important is because boundaries is the benchmark, the cornerstone of self-help. It's what we speak about all the time, but often sometimes boundaries can come across as a little bit woo-woo in sense of how does one set boundaries? What do boundaries actually look like in a relationship? Because it's so easy to talk about them as a construct. It's very, very challenging to implement and set boundaries in your relationships. And often we speak about boundaries as being essential to romantic relationships, but we're covering so much more in this episode. I think a really important thing to point out is speaking about

boundaries between parents and their children, because we do romanticize this idea that you should be best friends with your children instead of having that parental relationship. But Terry has some pretty strong feelings about that, that I think is really important because I hadn't really heard it from that perspective before. Another thing that I really loved about this chat is that we also covered disordered boundaries, what they look like and codependency and how those two things relate to each other. There's so much in this. And if you're somebody who feels as though you need to set better boundaries in your relationships and with the people closest to you, this episode is for you. Terry, welcome back to Life Uncut. Why, thanks for having me, you guys. I'm so

psyched to be back. Talk us through the basics. What is a boundary and why are they important in relationships? So I want you to think about your boundaries as your own personal rules of engagement. This lets other people know what's okay with you, what's not okay with you. According to me, your boundaries are made up of your preferences, your desires, your limits, and your deal breakers, right? So those four things are what your boundaries are made up of, and it's not enough to know them, which part of the problem is most people don't even know them, but you have to know them and then have the ability to communicate them readily when you so choose. So why are they important? This is how people know us, because think about your boundaries, preferences, desires,

limits, deal breakers. They're not just your boundaries. All of those things also make up who you are uniquely yourself. So when we've been taught to be the cool girl, you know me, no fuss, no muss, whatever's good with you. It's all good. It's all good. What we're really doing is denying the people in our life, the ability to actually know who we are. Like a lot of times we do it because we don't like conflict or we don't want any problems. We want everyone we're managing the crap out of the people in our sphere and the real question is why you know what people always ask me is why don't I know right especially because my crew is like super high functioning highly capable women in particular that is my posse and they just don't get they feel bad they're

like I could figure out anything why can't I figure this out and it's basically you don't know it because nobody taught you. It's as long and as short as that. And just like a language, you can learn it. What about in terms of if you're a people pleaser and you find it difficult to disappoint people? And I think because like I've heard boundaries being spoken about in terms of, you know, you have a low self-worth and that's why you're finding it hard to kind of put down and lay down your boundaries and communicate those boundaries. But what if you don't have a low self-worth? What if you feel as though you are confident in yourself, but you have this innate feeling that you hate making people feel disappointed and therefore

you always seem to go above and beyond not because you're lacking in self-confidence but because you you hate this feeling of like i'm a disappointment or i've disappointed them well kind of what you're talking about is what my next book is about which is high functioning codependency yeah right so that's great that's you can we order the first copy. We're back to having a therapy session where Laura unpacks her own trauma. Yes. How did we end up here? No, but I mean, I do ask the question because, and it probably is one that is introspective, but I do find it very challenging for myself. I am a people pleaser and I find it very hard to say no to people if they have guilted me into doing something. Yeah. And we had this

exact, and I know exactly what you're saying. We had this exact conversation over the last few days with Laura, this exact thing. I actually, it couldn't be more perfect timing where Laura is so confident and sure of herself, but she will always say yes when she doesn't want to do something for that exact reason, because she doesn't want to disappoint someone. And even through that, I was like, but that's your boundary. Like you don't want to do this. You don't have to do it. And she's like, but I just feel bad. All right. So we're really, what we're talking about is the same exact thing. And you can understand why I'm writing a whole book about it because it is about disordered boundaries. Cause when you say yes, when you really want to say no, that's

a dysfunctional boundary, obviously, but you don't have to. The reason why I came up with a new, I coined a new phrase, high functioning codependency, because I'm like you. And because my crew is like you, we're highly capable, like masters of the universe, getting shit done, doing all the things and running the stuff. Like a lot of times we're the person that people go to in your friendship group. You're the rock in the family. You're the one that makes everything happen. And yet you are most likely overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the decisions, the circumstances, the relationships of the people in your life to the detriment of your own internal peace. And that's the definition of being a high functioning codependent.

So the why you don't want to disappoint people is going to be as unique as your childhood was, right we're all going to have our why as to what does it mean why we don't want to disappoint but what really becomes evident in the teaching of the high function codependency is that when we continue to self-abandon force ourselves to do crap we don't want to do say yes and we want to say no that's a heavier price to pay and so what ends up happening is you will learn in your life if you want to to get over this people-pleasing aspect of your personality because it really doesn't match really the rest of your personality, Laura, like what we're talking about. It actually kind of doesn't. And think about it this way. When we say yes, when we want to say no,

we're doing it with resentment. There's a cost to the relationship, to how we feel about the person. Because in my twenties, I was much more of a people pleaser then. And it's like, I would be like, oh, Betty is so entitled. It's her. I cannot believe why is she asking me to do all this stuff. What the hell is wrong with her? And it's funny, a girlfriend of mine, Kate Northrup, we were walking in New York a bunch of years ago and she was complaining the whole time about this person who she'd done so much for. And she was like, who is like this? I can't believe she's asking me to do more, blah, blah, blah. Like the whole time where we were walking to an event. And when we got there, I said, yeah, Kate, she's got some nerve putting you in a position to have

to say no. And she was like, oh my God, Terry, you're so right. It's literally on me to say no. I'm like, yeah, because here's the thing, you guys, and you know this, taker's going to take. It's up to the givers to set limits. How do you then get over the feeling that someone is not going to like you or they're going to be angry at you or there's going to be repercussions for the no in which you're placing? And whether that be within your own family, whether that be within a work environment, I think for people who struggle to set boundaries, it's often because they're so worried about how that's going to impact the other person. How do I get over the feeling well you learn to tolerate the feeling and then you start to have positive experiences

because it's not just a bad feeling that comes when you set honest boundaries you deepen the intimacy in your life you allow yourself to exhale you have relationships that also feed you you allow people to help you like there's more mutuality when you're not managing people because here's what's happening when you're saying yes when you really want to say no and you guys let's all get clear. If you are in a relationship, if you have a family, it doesn't mean we're never going to do shit we don't want to do. We do it for love. We do it for compromise. We do it because that's called being in a relationship. We're talking about times when you really could say no, when it really is your decision to make and that you don't allow yourself to say no. That's what

we're talking about. And the real question, and what I would say, this could be helpful to anybody listening is try to get to the original injury because there is one what is it about when this point someone is wanting something from you that you kind of don't want to give them or don't have the bandwidth for or tired or whatever who do they remind you of right the three questions that we ask to figure out if you're having a transference is who does this person remind me of where have i felt like this before and how is this behavioral dynamic right like someone asking me to do something I don't want to do, but then me doing it and then me feeling resentful. How is that familiar to you? Maybe you saw it with the adults in your life. Maybe you've experienced it or maybe

in childhood. I don't know, but that can help figure out why it feels so threatening because what you're describing as a child's feeling of that experience, because grown up you doesn't feel that way. What would you say constitutes or represents somebody who is very bad at setting boundaries? What does that look like? And how could they identify that they're bad at boundary setting? All right. So let's look at the types of boundaries that there are. And if anyone wants to know their boundary type, I have a free quiz online. It's just boundaryquiz.com. It's super easy. And there's 13 quick questions. Then it'll tell you there's like seven archetypes. So you might be more of a peacekeeper or might be more of a chameleon and you will get your results from

the quiz. Anyway, so you could have porous boundaries, which are boundaries that are too malleable they're too loose right so that's more saying yes when you want to say no more of a chameleon more of a peacekeeper more of a pushover type you might have rigid boundaries and this is the thing that people barely ever talk about they feel like having bad boundaries me only means being like a doormat to other people that's not true having rigid boundaries is the my where the highway people the people who would be so quick to literally cut you off If you hurt their feelings, they couldn't ghost you in like 2.2 seconds, rather than be vulnerable and tell you that you hurt their feelings. So a rigid boundary is where your boundary is too hard. There's no flexibility. And then in the middle of that, of course, is healthy boundaries, where there's a certain healthy flexibility where we can compromise and we can work with other people. but we know who we are we know what we think we value our own opinions we know that we're not

responsible for other people's feelings right like the definition really is being super clear about what is your side of the street emotionally and in every other way and what is someone else's side of the street and when you have enmeshed or porous boundaries you don't know that you feel like your friend's crisis is your crisis like you can tell if you have disordered boundaries in this way and in a codependent way, if you check your urgency, the moment your friend calls you and is in a panic, how quickly is your heart racing? And you being like, oh my God, I'm Googling the answer. I know someone, I'm texting people, I'm in fix it mode immediately. But it's like taking it on rather than being like, how can I best support you? Or you know what I mean? The

foundation of codependency is disordered boundaries, right? Because what does it mean when you're codependent, overly invested in, overly involved in feeling states, outcomes, relationships, circumstances of the people in your life, to the detriment of your own internal peace, financial well-being, spiritual well-being, you cannot be codependent and have good boundaries. Those two things don't go together. And when you really think about codependency, it is a covert or overt bid to control other people's outcomes. Oh, that's what I've been doing for 36 years. How does this happen? I also think it's so important to know like I mean I don't want to say it's easy but it is easy

in a way to change who you are and your boundaries that you do put on your life and your friends and your relationships I used to be like you Laura and we were talking about this last night too I used to have no boundaries say yes let people walk all over me do everything never want to hurt anyone's feelings and then I think I just got shat on so many times that I I am so far on the other spectrum now where I just, if I do not want to do something that I don't have to do, I can pretty easily say no. Obviously there are times you do something you want to do. And I think that's important to know. There's always going to be things that you do for a certain reason that you don't want to do. Like that is life. But when you don't have to actually turn up somewhere and you're doing it

completely against your will, that's when you have to start to say no. We also see people abuse the use of the idea of boundaries. Like instead of saying, and using boundaries as a weapon in a relationship like well this is my boundary I'm just telling you how I feel and like we've all learned this sort of therapy talk now we saw it recently with the big conversation that hit the media which was Jonah Hill and how he tried to set boundaries with his ex-girlfriend and what did that look like he's just been an asshole yeah and I guess my big question here is is how does one recognize the difference between what is healthy boundary setting and when someone is actually using it as a control technique or not even if it's control but just that they're being

an asshole with the boundaries that they're trying to set. But it is control though. So let's go back to that, especially if we're talking about the Jonah Hill, Sarah Brady thing, where he was presenting his coercive control over her. He met her and knew she was a surfer. He met her because of her Instagram feed. And now he's like, you can't wear a bathing suit in your Instagram feed. That's my boundary. No, it's not. It would be like Sarah Brady saying to him, I met you and you were a famous actor and now it's a year in or eight months in. And my boundary is that you don't ever have a kissing scene with another actor. That's my boundary. No, it's not. That's also not a boundary. So how do we know is when the other person is using the term boundary,

but what they're doing is trying to control you with it. So I'm going to give you an example. I had a client who had a husband who he liked to go to bed late. She liked to go to bed early. and this kind of brought a bunch of conflict in the relationship she was always coming in being like i don't know why he goes a bit so late it's like ridiculous and he comes in and wakes me up blah blah blah my problem with the whole thing is that he would not be considerate so she'd go to bed at 10 he'd come in at 1 and basically turn the light on get undressed in the bedroom you're like so she was like he should come to bed earlier he needs more sleep it's my boundary and i was like No, that's you trying to control him. That's you being his mother. That's you thinking he's a grown man. If he wants to sleep six hours a night, that literally is his prerogative in life. Where it is your boundary is making a simple request that he get undressed in the other room, that he use a small light from his phone so he's not flipping on the overhead light while you've been asleep for three hours.

like that's where it spilled down to her side of the street and also you know we talked about them compromising and then they decided you know three nights a week to go to bed 10 together or whatever it was but that's the distinction her trying to control his bedtime is not a boundary yeah her making a request that he not be an inconsiderate boob is right that is a boundary to say i have a simple request that you not wake me up and they were able to reach that agreement but i think that's a good distinction between control and actual boundary. How important do you think it is to set your boundaries at the beginning of a relationship? Let's just talk about romantic relationships as opposed to implementing your boundaries along the way as things come up.

And in saying that, are you allowed to just change your boundary whenever you want? Like, you know, something was okay yesterday. It's not okay anymore. Yes. Now I wouldn't do it that willy-nilly, let's say, but the question is, can we evolve in a relationship? Maybe I was willing to do X, Y, and Z five years ago. Maybe I'm no longer willing to do that. And that requires a conversation, acknowledging, hey, this used to work for me and it no longer does. So let's renegotiate this. That's why I always have couples do what I call a couple vision, where annually you sit down and you're like, okay, how do we want to spend our money? How do we want to spend our time if we have free time are we talking about the right things are we having enough sex are we

like where are we and every other week also having a state of the union because we do change i mean jeez i hope so yeah are we hoping that we're going to stay like we were when we were seniors in high school no so the most important thing though in a relationship is have really in-depth conversations about what works about how you feel about things about what you want i remember when i met my husband. I was so over dating in New York city. I was single. I'd had long-term relationships, but I was like a serial monogamous where it was, you know, I was like, yeah, for now, but like forever. No, definitely not. As soon as they'd be like, I think we should get engaged. I'm like, I think we should break up until my husband actually. And I remember being like,

I'm so much happier. Like I've built a really great life. So being alone, there's nothing wrong with it. I've had three amazing careers. I've got great friends. I travel around. I do what I want. That's what I want to do. And I remember when I met my husband, I just straight up was like, I'm looking for someone to be a partner who wants to buy a second home with me, who would consider having a kid who would, like, I just said all the things. Cause I was like, here's the thing. If he's like, wow, that's scary. Bye. I don't have time. I don't care. And so there was something so liberating about telling the truth about how I felt setting boundaries. Right. I didn't want someone who had addiction issues. Cause I had addiction,

like I was in recovery. I was like, I don't need anyone who's got any of those issues for me. right there was a whole bunch of things and in being able to just say them it wasted no time and my husband at the time he was like sounds good I was like wait all that sounds good I think so many of us have been guilty of being fearful of asking for what we want in case the answer back is no yeah and then so you think well maybe if I bide myself a little bit more time they'll change their mind it's like hiding who you are hiding what you want and then being in a relationship and being like gee i wonder why i feel existentially lonely in this relationship oh i know why because the person doesn't know who you are because you're too busy trying to be what

you think they want you to be and there's something so liberating and i see this with my therapy clients when they finally just get like what is unique about them who they are that is their special sauce. Like it's not like trying to be like other people and embracing that. And when you have that kind of level of self-respect, what ends up happening is that it is just, it magnetizes the right people to you because you're not afraid. You're not afraid to be alone. You're not afraid to tell the truth. You're not afraid to say no. And I always feel this way about people getting sexual really early, speaking of boundaries, because back to Britt's question about do we set the boundaries early and often, or do we wait to see what comes up? I think with

important things, we shouldn't wait to see what comes up because by then you've already invested your youth and your beauty. You've already invested your time, maybe your body, who knows, right? Like, so being truthful about what you're looking for, even if it's, you're looking for something that can turn into something, right? And exactly what you said, Laura, like, you know, if someone's like, oh, it's casual. And if you go out with them, even though it's the exact opposite of what you're looking for, that is self-abandonment. That is putting what they want above what you want. And who knows why they're saying it. You're right. People can change their mind. And if you go, no, I mean, I know a couple where this happened, where he was trying to break

up with her after two years. And she was like, this is what you do. You're ridiculous. This is you this is your pattern we're meant to be and you're definitely going to wake up and see that so forget about trying to break up with me how about learning how to talk and they actually got into like almost therapy and they've been married for 30 years now but I thought that was really funny where she was like you know this is this is your pattern and it's just dumb but also is that I mean I feel like I've been in that situation before where someone tried to break up with me and I just said no you're not going yeah that's my boundary because I wasn't ready I was like my boundary is no. And they were like, okay, but they wanted to break up with me.

But they were codependent and they found it really hard to set boundaries. So they were like, okay, so we both just stayed like, just cause I wasn't ready. I would love to unpack a little bit more of a situation where say somebody has, and I know we touched on cheating so much in the last conversation that we had with you, but say you're dating someone who has cheated or they have done some serious damage to the relationship because their actions or whatever were outside of what was the agreed upon arrangement. Let's say they've gone out and cheated. And then in order to rebuild that trust, you do have rules around your boundaries. Like you're not allowed to be on this type of Instagram

or you're not allowed to be doing this or X, Y, Z. Does that then cross over into controlling that person or are they boundaries? Because I kind of wonder if in order to repair the damage, there needs to be some rules around behavior so that the trust can be rebuilt. See, the thing is, it really depends on the situation because that becomes so much like mothering and monitoring and managing and all this crap that is not your responsibility and what does it say about someone like i know that there are many people in my field who are like you know listen cheating can be the best thing that ever happened to a relationship and it can become super strong because of it yes it can and it can also just be habitual hell so i think it

depends on the history and the person. And what does the person who cheated want? Do they really want to be together? Do they have a history of this? Is this the only time ever that it's happened? Because here's the thing. There's two reasons people cheat, according to me. You cheat because there's something pathologically happening within you, right? We have habitual cheaters who just, this is what they do. They could be sex addicts. They could be love addicts. They just can't get enough. One relationship is not going to be enough. That's one scenario. And then you have people who cannot communicate in a relationship they're not getting their needs met they build up so much resentment that they become sort of low-hanging fruit to have an affair because part

of them just needs to get the hell out of the relationship and you know what's sure if i aware of getting out is getting caught usually right if it's that case and then they get into therapy and start talking and start really dealing with all the shit they haven't dealt with that's where i see it's possible for there to be you know a coming back together and honestly having it be better than it was originally but you have to excavate all of that stuff you have to talk about those things so I know what you're saying about the boundaries like it makes sense to a degree because how are you going to you know build trust back but just the thought of that of being in a relationship and being like, you can't be on this thing because you follow models or you

can't, it just seems so beneath the person who's having to be like, let me see your phone. You know what I mean? Totally. I was just putting myself in the situation as we were talking and I would rather not be in a relationship with someone. If I had to put those boundaries on someone and say, I want access to your phone whenever I want, you cannot have Instagram, you know, you cannot be out drinking on a Friday night. If I had to be putting those boundaries because I was worried they were going to cheat on me personally, I wouldn't be in the relationship because I just think trust is obviously the number one thing in a relationship. And if they need to rebuild trust, if they've cheated on you, but for me, it's.

I know. But the thing is though, and I sympathize with anyone who's been in this situation because what is normal changes so quickly. And like, if you've been with someone for X amount of time, and then you start this behavior and you're in this type of relationship where you do check their phone or you are monitoring them because, you know, they were the ones who originally broke your trust like it becomes normal to you and then the more you do it the more you justify the reasons why you're doing it and like it's so easy from the outside to go I would never want to be in a relationship like that and I feel the same I would never want to be in a relationship like that but no one wants to be but sometimes you find yourself there and then you think how the

fuck did I get here how is this my life that I'm living with this anxiety well it's something I wanted to ask Terry as well is and it happens all the time in my friend groups we get people writing to us all the time but it's how do you set a boundary and actually keep it because so many people I know and exactly what you just said it slowly it erodes it morphs and it becomes normal how do you set your boundary and actually make sure it's true to what you want in the relationship because like you know people go into relationship and they're like my boundary is you don't do drugs and you don't cheat on me you know six months in they're cheating because they're on drugs and then all of a sudden someone's like okay well just don't do it again like how many

times are you allowed to bend that boundary and how do you make sure it's like set in stone well part of it is we have to acknowledge and understand we can't and don't control other people but how boundaries work with repeat offenders because that's what you guys are actually talking about is someone where there's a repeated offense where we've established a boundary and maybe they've agreed to the boundary and now they're stepping over the boundary so there has to be a consequence. So let's just say I had this example of, this was actually a therapy client of mine who was in a relationship with someone and their agreement, right? One of her non-negotiables, because that's important part of boundary is to know like, what is non-negotiable

for you in your life? And one of those things was exactly what you said, Britt, which was drugs and drinking were not her thing. She was in recovery. This guy was in recovery and they were together for a year and a half, super happy. And then he relapsed. And in the beginning she was like, okay, just get back to meetings, blah, blah, blah. And then he relapsed again. And she basically was like, I can't live like this because it's threatening my sobriety. And she said, if you don't get 90 days in the next 90 days, then you have to move out. And so there has to be a consequence of like, you've got to get it together or I'm moving out until you have six months or nine months or whatever it is. And then you have to be willing to follow through. So I think that part of

what people don't do is they don't set up a consequence, right? Even if it's something simple, it could be as simple as, let's just say you're at home and you're making dinner and you're saying to your significant other, let me know if you're going to be late. So then I won't have the food ready when whatever. And if they don't do that, and if they don't do that, so two times, three times, there's got to be a point where you go, okay, we've had this conversation. You said you'd let me know. And so I'm now not making food for you. Like your food's in the fridge, eat it whenever you want to. I'm eating without you. Now, as much as that may sound punishing, there's a reality that if you have a boundary and it continues to be crossed, you have to come up

with what that consequence will be for you. So when, especially, and with the cheating as well, it's like there has to be something either we get into therapy together you get in therapy alone you move out until you get it together and we can decide whether you want to so there's got to be something because if not what is the thing that motivates human behavior i hate to say it but it's pain right and if there's no cost except you being mad for a period of time it's not likely that someone's behavior is going to change no it's pretty standard behavior isn't it human and animal response. We live and thrive off positive and negative reinforcement. And that is how we learn. It's how you train a dog, right? They do the right thing. You give them a reward. You give

them their food. They don't, you put them outside, they're cold and they don't have their food. This is how they learn. And humans, I don't think humans are any different. I like, yeah. Anytime my husband's naughty, I just put him outside with no clothes and no food. What do you, do you think you set boundaries the same way in relationships, friendships and work relationships. So are all relationships grouped into the same boundary setting category? Or do you have to take a different tactic? Definitely take a different tactic because think about it. The real thing with work is that if there's a power differential that has to be considered because you're not going to draw the same type of boundary with your boss. I think you have to be proactive and calculating

with boundaries that you set at work with people who have power over you, right? So you have to be, you have to take that in consideration. People will write me notes and be like, how do I tell my boss how I feel about blah, blah, blah? I'm like, PS, you don't because it's not even appropriate and he doesn't give a shit how you feel. But how can we get proactive and still get your need met? You don't need to be understood by your boss. You know what I mean? But if your boss is stepping over a boundary and calling you on the weekends and expecting you to work and you're not being paid for that work on weekends or whatever, we need to get the data. When it comes to work boundaries, it's all about what is the data? What is the problem? What is

the issue? What is the boundary that's needed? And then you look and see how is the company laid out? Does it make the most sense to go to human resources? Because it depends on is your boss like a normal person or are they like a raging narcissist and they're going to like take it out on you and find a way to fire you? So I think we really do have to take into consideration who has power over us, which is very different than a coworker or very different than your friends. Where you have equal power, you can make a simple request about some of their behavior and ask them to change something. You know what I mean? I find this really interesting because I would assume that people who are codependent, who probably struggle with boundaries already,

struggle with the different type of relationship within a workplace in terms of they may cross over the boundaries of what's an appropriate relationship with a boss or with colleagues. and so therefore their personal life and their work life has become this muddled mess and so they feel entitled to have conversations that may not be like you know as you say your boss doesn't of course they care in some way but like it's not their responsibility to sit down and deeply care about the way you feel and all of the intricacies around your experience they want it to be a good culture in the workplace they want you to be able to be efficient get your work done But I think sometimes we, by our actions, muddle those relationships.

And so then it becomes very conflated. Without a doubt. And that's bad for everyone. Yeah. It's bad for you. It's bad for your productivity. But it's also bad for your internal life. You don't want everyone knowing your business, right?

It can impact what happens to you at work, whether you get a promotion or not. They're like, well, your husband's doing great. You don't need it. Like, you don't know. like my feeling is keep work at work keep your personal relationships personal and be as professional as possible at work because that's what's appropriate it doesn't mean you can't be friendly right we can be friendly but don't you have enough friends like do we need to become friends with the people we work with i learned this lesson the hard way and i i mean for everyone

who's listening probably knows but i have another business which is tony may i'm a jewelry designer we have employee staff and i used to be best friends with all my staff like i would become such close friends and like we would all go out together we would all do things together and it made it incredibly hard for me as a business owner as the boss of them when they had done something that was not right where they had broken the boundaries of work or they just weren't showing up to work in a way that was in any way productive and I was still having to pay them it made it impossible for me to have a conversation with them about it and especially because on top of that you're a people pleaser yeah because and I hated it it was it honestly

it caused me so much internal conflict for many years. And now I'm at a point now where we have a bigger staffing, like we have the most staff we've ever had. My sister who works with me kind of is that second buffer and I'm friendly with everyone, but I'm not friends with everyone. And it's a much more professional relationship and it has served me and my sanity and my anxiety so much better, so much better. And it also serves your employers better. Yeah, 100%. Because they don't want the responsibility of being friends with their boss because they're unclear about what the lines are. You know what I mean? And I did the same in my young life as a talent agent. Oh my God, it was like, you know, everyone was under 25. We represented all these young, hot people. Like, no, showmances, romances, office, forget it. Like, it was just a mess. And it was so hard, especially when it was people I'm supposed to be, you know, having power over, where I know their entire life story. I'm too busy giving people therapy. Well, long before I was a therapist, it doesn't make you a good leader.

And I think that what ends up happening, and you're seeing this, of course, in your business, Laura, that it ends up that when you have better boundaries, especially at work, having really clear boundaries, really good onboarding policies, letting people know the best way to communicate and when they can expect to hear back from you, letting your employees know what you expect from them. like it's amazing now that i run a whole company how managing expectations with clear and clean agreements how much more productive the company is how much more money there is to make how much better people feel you know i read something recently you kind of just sparked my memory on this when you were speaking about dynamics within workplaces but i think about this in terms of dynamics with parents. I kind of think this can happen a lot in single parent relationships, like mother-child relationships, especially where like you become best friends with your children. Like my child is my best friend. I can only imagine that that is quite an enormous load

for a child to carry, to be a parent's best friend, especially because they don't have the mental or cognitive load to be able to take on all of the burdens of what adult life is. can you talk to me a little bit about that sort of like parent-child dynamic and what determines a poor boundary in that sort of relationship yep that's such a great point and it's funny because I always say if you're if you're a parent and you're saying my daughter's my best friend I always say she wishes you'd stop saying that like stop it's such an albatross around her neck and there's this responsibility that comes with that your kids want you to have your own friggin life your kids don't want to have to worry about you and they shouldn't have to in a healthy family

system to the best of our ability it is child focused not child obsessed right so clarification child focused in an appropriate way a kid is going through school they're playing a sport you're taking them to that sport or to dancing and you're going to see them and you're coordinating their doctors and they're going to their birthday parties and child-focused, not parent-focused. So when it's parent-focused, because the parent either has an addiction issue or is a single parent, is overwhelmed, is exhausted, is whatever, that puts the burden on the kid. So what are healthy boundaries? Children shouldn't be worried about the electricity bill, right? A nine-year-old shouldn't know that you're running out of cash.

It's a burden because there's also nothing that a nine-year-old can do to change that, right? These or adult problems that need adult solutions. Talking to a child about your love life, talking to your child about the other parent, whether you're together or not, all of these things are no's. Do not do this. Do not triangulate your kid, especially if you're separated or divorced. Let your child love the other parent, please, because they need to. And if they feel that split loyalty, my God, that reverberates throughout the rest of their lives. talk about codependency talk about dialing into someone's feelings talk about the kid being in what we call therapeutically a double bind meaning you're just screwed either way right

you're screwed if you love your mother then your father feels bad and if you love your father your mother feels like bad mouthing bad mouthing the other person never do that to your kid never but even if the other person is a total asshole even if your co-parent is a psycho which they may be and i'm sorry if that's your situation do not talk about them in that way do do the best that you can to protect your kid from that but you can't put that on a child so i think really it's always being the grown-up like when you're the grown-up it's you and that means you can't need your child's approval that means you've got to stop saying to a three-year-old is it okay if mommy, whatever. It's okay. Cause the kid is three, four, five, four, ten. Don't ask them

if it's okay. Stop giving them so many choices. They don't need 44 choices for lunch. Let them choose between peanut butter and jelly and grow trees. Like there there's age appropriate decision-making and I'm all for that. Right. We learn as we grow, but I feel like with a lot of parents, there's so much, anything you want or everything you want, or what can I do? Oh, i'm like a short order cook one of my friends says you know i do four different meals every night for everyone i'm like why like for whose benefit that makes you feel needed and it shows them that the world is going to give a shit about their every desire which it does not and will not like it's too much instant gratification i feel like being so many romanticized tv shows that

highlight this like a beautiful friendship that happens between mother and daughter and i know that you can have that, but I'm guessing it is over an appropriate age. But there's a way to do that without impinging on their independence. There's a way to just tell the truth. Hey, when you're becoming sexual, I'll take you to the gynecologist. Let's talk about that. Or we don't have to massively talk about it, but I will bring you to the right doctor. Because here's what happens. In teenage land, we need to separate and individuate. And if you have a mom who's a best friend who you can't get mad at, who you're not allowed to like reject in some way because we're besties, it complicates this process that we kind of have to go through. I mean, and not everyone,

I don't feel like I really did as a teenager myself. I was too busy because my sisters were all bad. So I was good, but it's like, I couldn't differentiate. I couldn't act out because they'd already done it all. Exactly. But you know what I mean? A daughter needs to step out, which is why you need to have rules. You need to have boundaries when you're parenting. They need to have a curfew because they need to step outside of that curfew. So if you don't have boundaries, now they got to step that much further out to differentiate, to get your attention. So it's not personal to you. Give them a curfew. They're going to come in home late sometime. And then you're going to be like, and now you can't go out on Saturday. Like appropriate

punishment, right? Appropriate. You're putting limits on what they're doing, but you're showing them consequences. We're teaching them deductive reasoning, critical thinking skills. This is our job as parents. And if you need that adulation or that adoration or that friendship from your kid, it's the wrong place to get it. Because sometimes your kid is going to be like, I can't stand you. I hate you. You're so mean. Let them. You can say, I remember one time our youngest son said to my husband, we were dropping him off at therapy. He was acting out. He was being so bad at that point. And he got out of the car. He was like 15. And he was like, I loathe you. He said to my husband as he's leaving. And my husband said, I love you too,

son. And he was like, I said. Great use of the term. Do you know what though? I I love the way you just described that because I don't think I've ever in my life thought about and like going back to the specific example of a curfew, I would only have ever seen the consequence as a punishment. I would have only ever seen like I'm being punished, but I do really enjoy this reframe of like, this is me teaching you and setting up the rules of which that there are consequences when things don't happen. Because like, it's not about punishing your kids for doing the wrong thing. But it's about setting that expectation of how you want them to treat you and the rules of which they have to abide to, to live within a house, especially as teenagers.

It almost lets them manage their own life. Like you can go out on Friday night, you have to be home at 11. If you want to stay out later, great, but you won't go out next week. Like you let them have the autonomy to make that decision of is that extra hour worth not going out? I have this constant conversation with my partner and I'm like, how do we build resilience in kids that are genuinely lucky. Like I can very much look at our kids and say they are privileged, they are lucky, and they are growing up in a household and environment where they're not short on love and they're not short on the things that they need in life. So how do you build that? How do you make sure that they're not just entitled little brats? Make them work. Don't

give them everything. Don't ply them with all these material things, like make them work for things. Don't be the answer to everything. How about ask your kids expansive questions. The moment they have a problem, don't get into fix-it mode. Say, hey, what do you think you should do? What does your gut say? Because you have a good gut. I trust it. So what is your gut? We're building their ability to trust themselves. And if they don't know, that's okay. But part of it is we have to teach them to problem solve. And we do that through conversation, not freaking out. They do something bad. Let's say they fail a test because they didn't study. You trying to figure it out. You have a lot of parents who are like, I'm going to go talk to the school and tell them

that you were sick and that blah, blah, blah. No. Allowing them, listen, you failed because you didn't study. That is a consequence for your chosen action. If you want me to help you study the next time, I will. If you need more support, if you need a tutor because you don't understand, right? But we have to let the chips fall where they may and let kids experience some consequences for their actions and stay lovingly connected to them throughout, not in a mean way, like not sadistically, right? Like we're doing it in a way of like, yeah, that sucks. Okay. So we're here now and I'm here with you, but I'm not fixing it because you want them, like think about how resilient you became in your life. And I think about this in my life because when I was raised,

people were like, good luck. Like my parents, you know, parents had no good idea where we were at any given moment at any age i was going to bars at 14 i looked 24 like stop like how am i alive and nothing awful happened to me i have no idea but i remember going on my bike like on a saturday morning you'd go on the bike and they'd be like see you at five yeah you'd be gone for 10 they don't know where you are there's no phones my mom would literally say don't come home till it's getting dark yeah can you imagine i would never oh now now like i do think it's hard though because we're exposed to so much more of the realities of what can happen. And so the unrelenting news cycle, the Netflix documentaries about all the horrible things that happen to kids, it creates

the fear in you. And so we now are more helicopter because we're very aware of like the worst case scenario. But I think we're the first generation to be that. And so you think, well, then what's that going to do to our kids when they don't have the agency to fall down, hurt themselves and figure it out themselves? Because we're always there to protect them. I remember once, this is a memory that just popped into my head i remember once that happened right go on your bike come home in 10 hours and i was so far away in a quarry and i fell off and broke i broke my arm and i couldn't move or it was like completely snapped in half and then my other brother i had to wait for my other brother to ride by the quarry flag him down and then he had to ride like an hour home then my dad

had to drive into the quarry to pick me up it's because it's like there's no phones there's no and i mean yeah you're gonna live right like you're gonna live and i think that is the shit that pills are doing. Yeah. Well, you go through hard things and you're like, okay, I guess I can do that. But another thing I wanted to say about the parenting thing with boundaries is that when we insert ourselves into the middle of someone else's problem, even our kids, we're really centering that problem on us. And what we really want to be doing with kids in particular is we want to let it be centered on them. What do they think they should do? How do they feel about it? tell me more about it, like open-ended questions. And, you know, you'll figure it out, but don't be

so afraid for your kid to fail because they're going to be fine. We all failed, right? And we all broke our arms and sat there for four hours, as you just said, and somehow here you are, right? Yeah. Terry, thank you so much for all of your wisdom. We absolutely adore speaking to you. And I know for me, there's so many moments in the things that you spoke about that I relate to deeply. And I know that for our listeners, there will be people who have picked up parts of these conversations, whether it was parenting, whether it's codependency, whether it's navigating in their own relationships. I think there's been so much in this for like literally for everybody. Well, thank you guys for having me. I do want to make one mention that

I do have a workbook now that goes with the Boundary Boss book. So this actually just came out for anyone who wants a workbook. You guys wanted more scripts. That's what there's probably two thirds of that book is scripts. So people are absolutely loving it. And if you guys want to take the boundary quiz, just go to boundaryquiz.com. So many people, when they want to go and have a confrontation of sorts or set their boundaries, that's the thing they say, right? Even with friends, like, how do you reckon I say that? What do I say? What do I say to him? Like, you know, you know, the message you want to get across, but people have no idea how to put it into words. So I think that's absolutely brilliant. Thank you so much, Terri. Thanks for having me,

you guys. If you've loved the episode, you can jump onto Apple review and leave a little sneaky your review or you can subscribe to the podcast so that it's always in your feed and you know the drill say mom to your dad to your dog to your friends and share the love because we love love We'll be right back.