Life Uncut - Pivoting careers, writing novels and switching up gender norms with Sally Hepworth!

Episode Date: November 22, 2021

Welcome lifers to a laugh and a half episode with Sally Hepworth.We sat down with Sally to not only speak about her brand new book "The younger wife" (which you can get here BTW: https://www.sallyhepworthauthor.com/) but also to talk about navigating a change in your career when you've possibly had a different one before or you're a little bit further along in life.Sally boldly became an author not long after the birth of her first child so we picked her brain about how and why she made such a pivotal change in her life!It wouldn't have been possible for her to be such a successful writer without her husband Christian making some changes in his roles as a parent and within the household. We talk with Sally about what a parent's role can look like in 2021. Sally is witty. She is hilarious & she went to a sex party to research one of her books. This episode is likely to give you a laugh!You can find Sally here: https://www.instagram.com/sallyhepworth/?hl=enWe also touch on the Matt Doran, channel 7, "I haven't listened to your album yet Adele" saga and how it's a good reminder that we need to pay more attention to what the boy scouts said and 'always be prepared!" If you like the episode, and the pod, we'd really love a review on apple podcasts!Share it with someone who might be in need of some career change inspo because we love love!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey guys and welcome back to another episode of Life on Card, I'm Brittany and I'm Laura and I am still nursing, pretty much a four day hangover. Yep, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, anyone listening, we had our first real big celebration in two and a half years of this podcast. We went out on Friday for lunch. It's Monday. And lunch turned into afternoon tea, turned into aperitivo, turned into dinner, turned into a post in a cocktail.

It also then turned into some back pain because I am still really sore. It did not end, but it was amazing. we celebrated well i guess it was like semi christmas semi our new radio gang we thought we'd get together the little family and get you know talk some smack get to know each other talk some smack that's code for business and yeah we actually just had such a great day slash night and the following four days have sucked if you have followed this podcast for a while you would know that we for almost we don't get two years we've been trying to get we've had one dinner Britt and I, we're friends. We're here on the pod, but we don't do anything in real life together

because I have children and we live very separate lives in that respect. So we just like live our friendship on this podcast. And every so often when we get out and actually live our friendship in the wild, it's very uncomfortable for everybody else around. We were extremely intoxicated on margaritas. And I think back and I'm embarrassed for us. Oh, I think back and I'm like, I hope no one recognizes at that table. I don't know how many martinis and margaritas we ordered but we were just like sure we'll have another one they're like but your drink's still full we're like don't argue with the customer the customer is always right but also do you know what I loved about our little Friday lunch what was it soiree

which turned into dinner it was watching producer Keisha the one single person from our podcast just doing what single people do do you know what it was it was like sitting back and watching on safari no it was like watching an episode of national geographics it was like i was david attenborough commentating what was happening in the wild it was that is producer keisha laughing she's taking on my laugh we were sitting there i felt like i could have had some popcorn we're walking down the street in bondi to go for another drink and find some dinner blah blah blah blah i can't tell you how many people keisha passed she was like she was like hey waving she stopped to talk and she's like oh i used to date him hey hey oh i mean we used to hook up hey this went on

on and on and on then well in my drunken state it felt like a lot more then we ran into someone she had a fling with now this was the funniest moment that I have witnessed in a long time we need to talk about overcompensation oh producer Keisha you know when you run into someone who you have dated back in the day they've got a girlfriend that's with them that's with them that's standing there and your instant reaction is to be like oh how are you oh my god it's so good to see you both and I hope you're both amazing and you look beautiful what are you doing with your hair that is what we got to watch with producer Keisha not was it just a normal like hi it's nice to see oh like you seem like a nice girl there was a lot of overcompensating that happened

she was very drunk it was hilarious to watch anyway I feel like I had almost forgotten that it was a year ago that that was me that was me doing that in the wild I forgot what it was like but Keisha you're living your best life so we just want to say thank you for bringing that to the podcast well I'm just glad that we have somebody here who can bring the single relationship dating stories but also we've all been there we've all done the overcompensating where we've run into an ex fling and their new partner and it just takes over doesn't it and then you know when you walk away and you're like they're not even that hot no you walk away and you're like she has no idea that we used to date they always fucking know they know Keisha said that and I was like

Keisha 100% she knows every person that he has been with in the last five years because think about you like when you meet someone new you know their backstory you know what's been going on you also get a vibe I think like anytime I have run into someone who Matt's you know being like oh hey hey how's it going I'm like you fucked her like I just know you just you can just tell there's something different about like the there's like a tiny little bit of maybe it's awkwardness mixed in with like a little bit of surprise there's just something about the energy is slightly different to when you run into like a normal guy who you've had zero any romantic feelings for 100 they walked away from that table from the three of us and she turned to him she was like

all right which one which one is it which one and she's like i bet you it was a little one that kept saying you're so beautiful but it's so good to watch and it's so good to see life go back to normal people are out people are happy people are wanting to date again but the thing that made me realize Keisha and I've been there before when you live in such like an inshallah little bubble you're bound you are 100% bound to run into them like you like walking down the street like you were the queen you're like hello like because you've just like everyone loves you obviously. But that's why, and I've said it in the past, that's also why I have always been really open and said, if you are online dating or you're doing any dating and you decide you don't want to

be with that person anymore, it's not going anywhere, that it's really important that you tell them and you don't ghost them because there is a high probability that you're going to run into them again. And I think it's always good to end it well. Anyway, guys, if you had a bad weekend, if you had a bad week last week, I just want to talk about someone who had an even worse week than you this is the news article the gift that keeps on giving this week and it is channel seven sunrise host matt doran i don't know if you've seen this but matt got given the opportunity that i think every single one of us would die for i think anyone in the media it's the biggest opportunity you could have had in the last six years he was flown to the uk to interview adele

about her brand new album not only was he flown to the uk but this interview as part of like a channel seven special that they were putting out it cost channel seven a million dollars a million dollars unfortunately matt doran forgot to do one a very important thing so matt doran who is predominantly a crime reporter was given this amazing opportunity matt jumps on a plane with this big million dollar job now he's got a 23 hour flight to get to the uk to interview adele on an album her first album that she's dropped in the last six years this is a big deal adele's album's 58 minutes long he could have listened 23 times to the album so Matt's sitting down with Adele he's obviously fumbling his way through the interview towards the end she's realized that

she's like something is not making sense here he's not asking any specific questions his responses just weren't engaging enough with the album and with what she's saying so she calls him on it she's like have you listened to the album just lie Matt he said no he goes oh I actually haven't listened to it could you imagine going and being flown to the UK to interview Adele and just not doing your fucking homework like you have one job it is now okay there's been more to this story that's come out but matt doran was actually given pre-release so he was given early viewing or early listening of the album and his response to not listening to it was that he missed the email so he received an e-card when he was on his flight on the way over which had access to the full album

i mean even if you haven't listened to the full album google it you would have at least listened to this song that every single person's listened to easy on me which is like my favorite song and i'll happily sing it at the top of my voice in the shower at the moment but on top of that you would think at least do a little bit of research like we know what's about her divorce we know what's about her personal life when these interviews at this level you know you're going to have access to early listening if you are on your way over to meet adele and interview her and you haven't got it you just hit up your bosses you're like hey is there any information that you guys can give me on this like your one job is to go and do your research and interview it's

like us turning up here to interview someone that we know not one thing about like you just wouldn't do it you know in school at least if you didn't read a book in English or you didn't like you didn't know the assignment you would at least research what that book was about know enough about it to bluff your way through the assignment to rock up to interview one of the most prominent one of the most famous one of the most renowned singers in the whole world without doing any research just shows and I look I mean he's come out and said that it wasn't arrogance it was ignorance but it really does have this air of I'm so good at my job I don't need to prep. This whole blunder has hugely backfired because Channel 7 had planned on broadcasting this

Australian exclusive interview. Obviously Adele was incredibly offended as you would be if someone rocked up and hadn't listened to your album and hadn't done any prep. She has gotten Sony Music which is her label to veto as in to get in touch with Channel 7 and to veto the entire interview even though they have the recording they have been banned from ever broadcasting it and then on top of that matt doran has been suspended well it's been reported that he's been suspended from his job at sunrise for two weeks as punishment i mean is that punishment is too it's like a vacay it's christmas this is a busy time he's probably like i get two weeks off if imagine if you're interviewing the biggest person in the world right now in entertainment you have just cost

your company a million dollars and the exclusive in australia and all you get like how do you not get fired and I don't want him to get fired I'm not saying that I know people have been fired for farting like people have been fired for so much like that's not actually but people have been fired for so much less this is a huge thing and he gets a two-week vacay that's what I think I'm like every single person listening to this who has ever been fired would have done something substantially less problematic than fucking up an Adele interview but also the embarrassment he feels right now would be so excessive and overwhelming I'm sure well he's been trolled by not only the public, not only by Adele fans,

but also by people who work within the media. Everyone from Peter Hellier to Rosie Waterland has had something to say about it. And the tweets and the Instagram comments are fucking hilarious. This is one from Rosie Waterland. I just keep thinking, how bad must the interview have been that Adele actually asked him

if he'd even listened to the album? One Google search would have revealed it's about her divorce at its simplest. He must've been so willfully uninterested for it to be obvious that he knew nothing. Hunter Smith chimes in, who could possibly have foreseen that giving the biggest music interview in the world

to a Channel 7 crime reporter would end so badly? And I have one more. That's so funny, like it's so true. How did this interview fall into his hands? Okay, well, Seven, Matt's Doran, turning up to a major international discussion without doing any preparation. Who does he think he is?

The Prime Minister of Australia. I just love that this has become, like this is like the biggest trending news at the moment and I feel a little bit sorry for him, but this should be a lesson to all of us come on guys we all need to do a little bit of prep when it comes to work i want to finish with one last thing a joke by byron k and i don't know how people are so quick but it's i fucking am here for it why does matt doran have an apple computer because he's never heard of adele

i get it like adele is a computer i get it but adele is also the biggest music person in the on. So cute. Love that. So bad. All right, guys, let's tell you what today's interview is actually about. So today on the podcast, we have an interview that I really, really loved. I enjoyed it. I was in hysterics the whole time. I learned a lot. We're interviewing an incredible woman named Sally Hepworth. Now, Sally Hepworth, she is an Australian. She lives down in Melbourne. She's a mom. She's a wife, but she's also a New York Times bestselling author. She has released seven books she's doing basically one a year she was crazy enough to decide to start writing when she was pregnant with her first child her latest book the younger wife has just gone bonkers

everybody is here for it she has signed a deal for a tv series her life is actually incredible but one thing we really wanted to get to the bottom of with sally is talking about career change because she wasn't always a writer she had a whole different life and later in life she decided to pivot and go down an avenue and do something she was really passionate about she took huge huge risks we jumped pretty deeply into that because that's something that a lot of people write in about it's something that i know a lot of people think about how do you change career how do you change your passion am i allowed to do it at this point in my life am i too old to do it are there too many obstacles there are so many things that we face every day in this aspect so we wanted

to ask sally how she did it why she did it what it was like and what the challenges were and she has some pretty fucking funny stories along the way too. As much as it was awesome to unpack the how to go about changing your careers there were some other really awesome parts of this interview like Sally has a very non-traditional relationship with her husband where her husband is basically the stay-at-home parent now and he used to be the one who was the breadwinner of the family but his career took a back seat to allow Sally the opportunity to become the incredibly famous writer that she is. I just think it's so interesting to speak to a couple in a relationship that is navigating something that is so different

to what is the normal for so many of us or what we've been brought up to think is the acceptable way of raising and taking care of a family. On top of this, Sally goes into the research that has to be done for writing fiction novels. And she tells us about a very interesting time at a sex club,

but we're going to get into all of that very soon. She really went above and beyond in her research. Let's just say that, but you have to hear it for yourself to believe it. Before we get into that, it is time for what we always say is our favorite segment. accidentally unfiltered. Guys, I've been seeing the same doctor for about five years. So she

knows me very well. I popped in for a prescription as I'd almost run out of my medication. She tells me about this YouButte new script system where you can SMS your script to me so that you don't have to worry about losing a paper one. So I was like, yes, hook a sister up. The text comes to my phone and she wants me to open it to make sure that it works before I leave the office as I've never used this whole system before. Of course it doesn't work. So there she is. And she grabs my phone off me to do it herself i'm an android gal and she's obviously more of an old apple sort of thing because she's there and she's clicking around buttons and she's doing shit all over the place next minute my fucking porn turns on which i was watching the night before and i hadn't cleared

my google browser so here i am sitting in the office with my gp who i've been going to for the last 15 years and we're both watching porn together to be fair that is the best person for this to happened to it's a gp she's probably like tick sexual health active i don't know i think i would be like i need to get a new gp no what the porn is oh it definitely depends on what the porn is deep hard anal penetration i think imagine okay no just imagine the difference imagine like your gp i think it's the best person imagine if you were a school teacher and your principal's called you're in we're like we need to talk to you that's a whole nother level quit you new occupation matt doran two weeks suspension okay i'm gonna bring a confessional and i don't know how i feel about it

I feel like you're about to say it's because you did it. No. The way that you look like you're about to admit your own sins. I'm bringing a confessional and I don't know what your response is going to be. I was on the fence with if I should read it because I just feel like it's so gross. It's not bad. Oh, no. But I'm going to do it because it's a really big confessional.

It's too early in the morning for this shoot. And if producer Keisha and Laura, if I read this and you tell me it's too gross, we will do another one. guys I have something I really need to admit so I'm in the supermarket doing my grocery shop and I thought I'm a bit peckish so I might fill up a bag of chili and lime soy crisps from that little help yourself section you know the one anyway I open the sliding lid and I'm filling up the ziplock bag and I whacked the tip of my finger on the side of the plastic tub next thing I know I'm watching my very long fingernail break off and fall into the full tub of help yourself sweet crisp it was too far gone to get it out so I just closed the lid and walked away and pretended that

it didn't happen now the next person is going to eat my fingernail fuck my life r.i.p I'm going to hell now now do you know what I mean it is like that is not okay you need to buy that whole box of crisps you need to put in no sixty dollars into your bag and take that home you don't need to do but you do need to go and tell someone who works there hey I just went to get some soy crisp and there was a nail in there I think you guys like don't admit it don't blame it on someone else but like you don't just leave it there now I can never go to the soy crisp aisle again and the soy and lime crisp is so good I'm not okay with this now I have one more that I want to say and I don't actually think this is an accidentally unfiltered or a confessional or anything else

but it didn't really have a place so this is where it goes just chuck it in at the end then we're better to put it than tack it on right at the very finish line it's just because it ties in so nicely with the Matt Doran saga. Hey guys, I absolutely love your podcast and I thought you'd find this funny. I'm a medical student and one of the exams I just had to do involved role playing a scenario where I had to diagnose and tell someone that they had herpes. Now this is a really big exam. I wasn't expecting this at all and I had not studied it. I knew nothing. I had however listened to your podcast on STIs and living with herpes only the week prior. To cut long story short, I spent 10 minutes quoting your podcast back to the patient, praying that the

episode was accurate. Three weeks later, I found out that I'd gotten full marks and the examiner's only comment was outstanding. Well, I like to tell you all, we do do our research. I'm very glad that we could be here as a source of education for you all. Teaching the medical students how to diagnose. Now doctors are diagnosing from our podcast. I love that. But what a way to fumble your way through. Actually, you probably owe us. Leave us a review. Let's get into the chat with Sally Hepworth. We hope that you learn something from this. If you've been considering changing careers, this is absolutely the episode for you. And we hope that you get as much of a laugh out of this as we do. We are so excited to have Sally Hepworth joining us today. She is one of New York

Times best selling authors. Welcome to Life Uncut. But before we get into unpacking your books and how you got into it and your career changes and all the wonderful things that have happened in your life. We start every episode in exactly the same way, and that is with an accidentally unfiltered story, your most embarrassing story. Please divulge your deep, dark secrets to us. Well, I had to sift through quite a few to find one that incriminated me, but not anyone else. And I did find one. It's a couple of years old, and it's from pre-pandemic days when I used to work or write my books at the library. Back in those days, I used to have this big tote bag and each day I would put my computer in and I would traipse there and I'd work all day and then I'd

come home again. I'm a mum of three kids, so often there was all sorts of crap in that bag as well, you know, the kid's sunscreen or, you know, a dummy or something else. But one day I was there, I'd arrived, I'd schlepped there with my bag and started working. And one thing I love about the library is that it's got amazing people watching and this day I noticed that there was a little bit of a commotion going on around the entrance to the library a few people were standing around they were looking at something on the ground and I started to pay attention and I noticed that on the ground there was a pair of undies. Hang on my first thing is it's not often you get commotion at the local library. Well you'd be surprised it's actually quite a uh I was going

to use the word pulsating hub you know libraries are not what they used to be things happen there it's quite dramatic I've had a man have a heart attack at the library who was sitting next to me you know all sorts of things happen it's actually pretty exciting and this day I was excited I thought here there's a new plot something's going on there's been some sexy times in the library I wonder who it was you know so I'm looking around thinking was it you wasn't you you know there's a lot of students there it could have happened it was around that time that I had this flashback to a couple of days earlier when I'd had a spray tan on the way home from the library and of course of course I'd had to remove my undies and put on one of those little plastic you know

paper g-strings and I'd put my undies and my bra in my tote bag which was now sitting beside me and I glanced down undies aren't there on the floor across the room there are the undies and at this point when I've real and everyone I mean this is a small library everyone wants to know whose undies they were everyone's looking everyone's theorizing and I realized that not only were they mine they were my good undies I just got them online they were quite expensive and as I kind of put this all together the librarian is across the room sweeping them into one of those little dustbin and pan situations and tipping it into the bin and I just thought you know this is if I was a different person if I was a better person I would just let

it go and accept that that was the end of those undies but I thought all right I can be discreet so I picked up my bag I picked up put my computer in and I acted like I was just walking out to get lunch and then as I walked past the rubbish bin that the undies had been put into and I could see they were on the top but because it was early in the day no Sally you didn't she did please tell me you did it I just thought you know like ah they're good I can put them in the wash so I had to like reach in but I really had to dig in far and I got in almost to my shoulder I whipped out the undies and then as I turned to leave I locked eyes with the librarian well I hadn't even thought that she might think that was someone else's and I was just

perving on someone else's undies I and I but I couldn't talk because then I was obviously humiliated and I couldn't explain that they were mine so I just then head down I just walked out the library and because the pandemic then happened you know it's been a couple of years since I've been allowed to go so unless she's listening to this podcast I think I might be safe to go back to the library now. I don't think anybody's ever been thankful for a pandemic but there you are I don't even know if you can still go back and see her face to face because she unless you had a conversation about it probably still thinks that you fished somebody else's dirty undies out of a bin. I know and probably told all the other librarians as well. The famous

Sally Hepworth get your undies out of the garbage. I mean I feel like when you're arm deep getting your undies in the local library bin that everyone knows what you're doing and you've locked eyes with the librarian maybe it would have been better for you to be like oh I'm sorry just getting my lunch not just getting someone else's dirty undies I think I think getting undies out of a bin is probably better than getting lunch out of a bin like I'm not I'm an opposing view okay well I'm kind of hoping she listens to this now so at least she doesn't think I'm a pervert and she knows that it's my undies and she'll just think that I'm cheap and that's probably the better of two evils. Everyone has an undie story and everyone has a poop story. That's just what

happens in the world. We've all got some relatable stuff. Sally, one of the reasons why we wanted to get you on the podcast, not just to talk about your sensational books and your career as an author, but you had a change of career later in life. And one of the big questions we receive so often is from people who are in their thirties or in their late twenties, or even in their forties going, I want to pivot my career and do something different, but I kind of feel like it's a little bit too late. So I want you to talk to us a little bit about what was your life before you became Sally Hepworth, the famous author? I always loved writing. I was a big creative writer at school and I thought back then that writing might be something that I wanted to do, but I didn't

really see being an author as something that appeared on, you know, at careers fairs or while you could do creative writing, it wasn't something like becoming a doctor or a lawyer that you went to university, and then that's what you became. So I finished school, I did an arts degree at uni, which was still, I think, the best decision I ever made, just in terms of getting that general education, learning how to think, learning how to question things. I then did a series of jobs, I worked in event management, and I organised music festivals, which was, you know, I mean, know I had a very small role in organizing those music festivals but I did that for a few years I then went and worked in HR which was an amazing job for someone who loves gossip because I got to

find out how much everyone was paid and you know who was on their final warning and I did that until I was 29 and pregnant with my first child and on maternity leave and it was that time I think it was really about you know yes it's bloody hard to do anything when you've got a new baby but having that break if you do take a maternity leave is a good opportunity for women or men if they take the leave to kind of think what have I been doing and what do I want to do and I think there's a reason why we find a lot of people at that kind of age making a career change because they've actually got to stop and think is this making me happy and they've got a little bit of life experience behind them and that's definitely how it worked for me. So did you love or dislike what

you were doing before like was there a big pull in you know what like I'm just getting through day-to-day I'm paying the bills this isn't my passion project or did you you still love it but you were like I feel like I've done it for so long it's time to pivot into something else like was it a love or a hate of your previous life? It definitely wasn't a hate. I enjoyed all the things that I've done along the way. They've all been really fun. I think that it was probably a kind of gradual leaning back into what I always loved at school and what I thought I was good at. Because as I said, in the different jobs that I had, I didn't hate them, but I wasn't great at it. I was a terrible gossip. What kind of people want an HR professional who's

a terrible gossip and I always kept coming back to the fact that writing whenever I did write something like if it was an email or a you know whatever it was I always got lots of good feedback throw the word pulsating in there and and you know everyone's enthralled that's a good tip to writers so yeah and it didn't you know I'm now 41 so to me at 29 doesn't feel like it was late in my career it actually feels like a great time in a career maybe early even to have figured out what you like and to have the gumption and the kind of tenacity to be able to stick with it that I definitely wouldn't have had when I was 18, 19, 20. It's funny, isn't it? As time kind of goes on, you think, oh gosh, that was actually, that was really young when I did that. But when you're

that age, you think, gosh, I don't think I can change my career now because I've already put so much energy and effort into where I'm already at. Life is very long. It is way too long to continue to do something that you're not passionate about. Now, you just mentioned that you wanted to lean into something that you were good at however I have heard you speak about the very first book that you wrote and it seems that at the time you thought you were good at it maybe it came with a bit of confidence from like the not knowing the ignorance around trying to do a project for the first time but can you tell us about the first book that you ever wrote oh my god I wrote yeah so that that first year when I was on maternity leave with my son who I will add was a very good

sleeper and still is and that's he's the only reason I was able to write a book that year it was the worst book ever written like honest to god and the reason i was able to even write it was because of google and i i often have people kind of saying can i pick your brain how do you start writing a book how do i do it and i think google it come on we've got google everything's on google and so i googled how to write a novel i wrote it and i think i've always had a healthy amount of self-loathing in general, but also to do with my books. And I think it's really important that you have a bit of blind self-confidence, but also the self-loathing because the two work together to help push you to make it the best that it can be, because you don't want to be

horribly ashamed. Writer's shame is a whole other thing. We can talk about that another time, but look, the book wasn't good. I mean, let's face it. Well, you don't want to peak too early either, do you really I think it's important to get be a grower not a shower yeah look it wasn't good but everyone's first attempt is bad and it often takes us a few years to get to realize that sort of like sex right well yeah for me yes oh the first attempt's always never great it does get better it takes a few years to get in the groove it's exactly like sex yeah you just you have to be prepared to be bad to then be good and to keep going and yeah and thank goodness that book that first book went on to be published in German amazingly I feel so sorry for those poor

Germans who've read it but but to everyone else in the world if they don't speak German they can't read it and I'm so grateful for that because then they don't have to see how bad I was so hang on the book was only published in Germany so it's not like it was published in English and Germany took it on board it was just Germany no thank goodness my agent so I amazingly found an agent for that first book because I googled how to find a literary agent and amazingly like he obviously didn't read the book because he took it on and he tried to sell it first in English to some of his contacts in America no one bought it rightfully so it then was sent over to the London book fair thinking that it might be published by a French publisher because it was

set largely in France or maybe a British publisher and strangely it was there was a very small pathetic little auction between two German publishers and it was published in German and so the only two words I can read on it are Sally and Hepworth. You know the funny thing is later I've had offers from publishers to you know they want to read it and maybe go back and publish it in English and I've said no way like it's humiliating enough just to be alive but imagine having that book out in the world and people reading it. But the wisdom perhaps is don't be afraid to be bad at something because you'll get better having blind faith is really important like you know having almost like the the naivety around it's not ignorance it's being naive you know you

you do something and you're like yes like I really believe in this because you need to have that conviction and the belief because if you're lacking that you'd never go on to write book two three four up to you know seven eight nine touching on quickly I have a few things going through my mic actually right now I have about 50 things flying around my brain that I want to know I want to pull everything out of your brain. But firstly, just touching on the whole search Google in terms of like people wanting to start a new career, 100% there is anything you want to know about anything on the internet. This podcast, Laura and I Googled how to do a podcast, how to find a podcast, how to find

a studio, how to record, how to edit, how to do everything. Like we had no idea and we fumbled through it. We made mistakes. Much like you just said, you would never want to read your first book. We probably don't want to listen to our first few episodes either. Yeah, unfortunately it's in English though. It's in English and it's out there, it's published, so people can find it. Confiserations.

You did decide to write your first book when you were about to have a baby on your maternity leave. I just want to know, was that absolute bravery or was that just like blind ignorance and naivety to think that you could just jump in and go on a holiday with a fresh new baby and write your first novel? I know, it was a bit of both. I mean, the audacity of me, right? I often think that and I have a little chuckle to myself when I hear other new mothers or

mother's about to have their first baby talking about all the things they're going to do you just have a chuckle bless them you're like cute yes sweet but look a couple of things one is that my baby was such a good sleeper and he was really he was like a robot baby I used to and he still is and that really helped me to get into a rhythm of of doing it the other thing about maternity leave, I guess, that I find that women go through or men, if they take it, is that it gives you that opportunity to pause. So even if you don't actually write the book or start the business or do the thing that year, the fact that you have had a bit of time away from that grind, because it's hard to get off that kind of, this is my job, this is my career. So for me, it helped me really connect

back with the fact that writing was what I loved. And I thought, if I can give this a crack this year when else would I do it and that helped me to really focus and do it I had a timeline I had a year and I had this baby that slept and so I used that kind of three hours a day evenings weekend a lot of sacrifices you know I stopped doing social things which is fine because I'm an introvert feels it became my passion project and yes I did I wrote a very crappy book but I did write a book that year and and just doing it I think even if it's a bad you do a bad job just getting it done is a bit of an achievement in itself. Did you have a lot of support in your life at that point in time? Because I just think, you know, for so many people that have these great

ambitions to do a career change during this maternity leave, but it comes down to how much support you have or what structures you have in place to actually be able to execute it. Because so many people have grand ambitions, but nobody knows how hard or hectic that first year of motherhood is going to be and how life-changing and transformative it's going to be. That's true. well so we were actually living in Canada at the time my husband Christian's job had moved us there so we didn't have a lot of family support in terms of hands-on looking after the baby I mean support we have to acknowledge is financial as well and Christian had a job and you know that was able to support us as well as with the maternity leave that we were paid from the

government but I think that I always like to really acknowledge the privilege that goes into being able to to only survive on one income while you do any kind of job and and that's true for writers a lot that the ones that are able to get ahead is because often they have got a supportive partner who is able to support them so not a lot of hands-on support with the baby but definitely didn't have to worry about money while I wrote it that time and the nice side of that is that now at the other end. Now, you know, I support Christian financially and he now works for me, but it's still definitely privilege. And I want to be upfront about that. You have a very interesting dynamic in your household now. You mentioned that Christian now works for you. So Christian is now

your assistant. How did this transition happen? And I would love to talk a little bit about your home dynamic and the untraditional dynamic you have in your household. Just so that everyone knows sally's husband's instagram handle which i thoroughly enjoy is this is his bio mr sally hetworth i am the earth upon which the mighty oak sally hetworth grows new york times best-selling husband now i love his confidence you know we absolutely stand a supportive husband or partner but how does one go from being essentially the breadwinner in the relationship to taking a back seat in the career aspect to being able to prop up and support your dreams ambitions and your career? Well, it's been a gradual shift and it's been a long shift. So I was just talking about

that first year of maternity leave. That child is now 12 and this changed for Christian to be the mighty oak. I hadn't actually read that. That's awesome. It's so good. And he came up with that himself. We usually have creative meetings about things that involve words. He's the finance brain, I'm the words brain, but look, it's been working. It's been rubbing off on him. So yeah, so look, Christian had a really fantastic job that took us all over the world and worked in finance and he was really good at it. And this is interesting to talk about in relation to careers, because I think so often people can do what they're good at, especially if they get really high marks, they feel like they need to do, you know, X, Y, Z, but Christian was really,

he's very smart, he's very competent and he had this great job. And so naturally at the beginning of our relationship and I kind of feel ashamed of this now as a feminist I kind of thought that my role would be the support person you know particularly because a he made good money and b there was the travel element you know that he we did have to move and I was sort of the trailing spouse as it were although I always worked and I was always going to have my own career I didn't go there and have lunch you know I was a working spouse but what is interesting is that no matter of how good at it he was he didn't love it and when he liked it he didn't hate it but I remember him saying to me early on before I made any money from writing he said I love how you love it and

the way that you choose to spend time doing it rather than you know other things that I enjoy including seeing my friends or you know for me it was such a pleasure to write and he really leaned into that early on and kind of gave me the permission to take the reins of the, we prioritised my career, even when he was earning more money and we needed his income. And so over a period of years, you know, I, once I got the Secrets of Midwives published, that was a good income enough for me to quit my job in HR, thank goodness, before I got fired. But then I started to earn a bit more and more. And then we probably got to parity. And at that point, Christian was definitely he was the one on the list for the school to call if a child was sick. You know, he was the one

leaning into the homeschooling the last couple of years. He was the mum, if we look at that traditional thing, and I was the dad. And so in the last sort of couple of years, I now have been able to be the primary breadwinner. And at the start of this year, Christian said, look, you know how would you feel um if we we had a lot of people working for us both as assistants nannies two of our kids have additional needs autism and adhd and we have a little one who's not at school yet and we were spending all this money on other people kind of propping us up and he said what about if it was me and and it just made so much sense that it should be him he's just a beautiful dad. He's a wonderful, was doing so much work for me anyway, as a support person. And so that's what

we decided to do. And so I hate it when people say you're so lucky, you know, you're so lucky that you've got a supportive partner because, and he's the first one to say that he's been so lucky too. And we have always been a team. We've played every role in our relationship and now we've kind of found the roles that we love. So it really works for us. It's so true, isn't it? You'd never hear somebody say to a man oh you're so lucky that your wife does so much with the kids it's there's an expectation there but whenever we see the roles in reverse and I experience it a lot with Matt because Matt's a very very proactive and hands-on dad but very 50 50 and often people or even I catch myself saying it I say I'm really lucky that he is somebody who does so much and

then at the end of the day you have to kind of sometimes remind yourself no that's also their job like this is you know we are a team and this is how it's supposed to be but have you ever had anybody look in or I don't know if I would even say make comments but has anybody ever kind of been like oh that's an unusual dynamic it's a daily thing I mean a lot of people don't understand that Christian has genuinely left his job and probably isn't going to go back like a few people have said oh so is he just taking some time off and like it is an unusual thing to leave a job that is successful probably for a man or a woman to then do something completely different but even yesterday it was clementine's birthday and we had a little party and christian had done

the party bags oh god what was in it a spanner there was some nails i mean you cannot and bless him like he christian i did not do a single thing for that party i just showed up and away we went and in the party bags there was each kid i mean they were stuffed full of chocolate and lollies like i was thinking you know maybe one freddo frog and a few toys right and this is in the each one had a pack of hubba bubba right these are for four-year-olds they're gonna what are you like bro what are you doing this is not age appropriate christian and as this kid pulls it out and i see his mom's eyes go wide and and he's can i have some chewing done now and she looks at Christian and smiles and she's like oh dads if that was me my name would

be mud like look at the way we're all laughing now like it's hilarious but I would be ruined if that was me and he drags the kids across town in their pajamas and they've never brushed their hair and they're very happy and I'm completely comfortable with it but it is different it's a different ball game for mums and dads and and how we judge each other and Christian can do no wrong you know because he's the stay-at-home dad everyone adores him and you know and the expectations are lower I think that's what I'm what I'm trying to say and I think it's a shame because I'm should get those low expectations too why don't they adore me I want to do minimal parenting and I want people to say that's cute

and say that's how I feel yes I'm adorable with my hubba bubba when I look at your role right now yours and Christian's role I think that that is the dream because for me I've never had that overly maternal pull to be the one at home rearing the children I would love to have kids and have someone else raise them like let's be honest that's what I would like I would love to be able to come home to be like oh look at my mini me but like I want to work I'm very career driven one day hopefully I have that but when I walk down the street and I see a man with his child maybe it's strapped to him going for a walk maybe he's getting a coffee he's not doing anything fancy I'm like oh my god look how cute that is bless him for taking his child out why the fuck what like women do that

all day every day but at the second that a man straps a kid on all of a sudden he's a dilf he's going above and beyond he's doing all these things I mean it really does play into exactly what you said this insane double standards but it's I think it comes from a lot it comes from women like we have been conditioned to have these beliefs as well it's not men who necessarily have these expectations solely it's judgment that comes from other mums it's judgment that comes from mothers groups and I do think that we see this changing more and more but we're definitely not there yet that's for sure let's get back into you Sally this is about you not about Christian I have a question that I want to jump into I because I've heard some whispers around the

book writing chain about research and how how you do your research for your books I mean they're fiction books but they're also very well researched well you have written some sexy books you've written some sex scenes I want to know how you do your research for those particular stories well there yeah there was a book about a swingers party a couple of years ago and look I really didn't know what I was getting in for when I decided to write this book back then I was thinking of a kind of 70s style swingers party keys in the bowl you know at a dinner party kind of thing and so I thought I'll write this book and when I started researching swinging and how it's evolved over the years I realized that in fact that may still happen but what we're largely

seeing in swinging is parties and some of them are quite high-end parties and it's less about partner swapping and it's more about orgies so amazing the things that you can find out through research so I thought you know I'm gonna have to go to a party I'm gonna have to do it Christian we're having an orgy this weekend on Saturday can you put it in the diary it's tax deductible it's research I know because he knew it was so exactly that and I'm pretty sure that we were watching The Bachelor actually when and we were in our track suits you know on a Wednesday night when you're inspired if anything's gonna get you ready for an orgy it's watching 24 women trying to vie for the same man it's orgy vibes I don't think that's an orgy though that's a whole nother

level. And I said to Christian, so we're going to need to go to a swingers party. I say some weird stuff to him and he doesn't take it all in. And then I found this one online, which was a really high end one. It was run by a woman who went to school with Kate Middleton, this kind of high society British woman who runs swingers parties all over the world, but they started in the English countryside. And there was one coming up in Sydney. And the thing that's kind of unique about these parties is that they're very carefully controlled. So this one, you had to be under 40. So they're ageists. Yeah, they're ageists for that party. I think that there were some granny parties, but we didn't want to go to that one. Fair call, good call. You had to submit

a photograph to make sure that you were, you know, attractive enough, I guess. You had to have a clean STD test submitted. And so all of this, I suppose, if you were going, and we were not going to take part. And I'd actually emailed the owner to say, I'd like to go to a party for research. I don't, I'd rather not have to have the orgy. Please don't make me. Hang on. What photograph did you submit? I'm more interested. I'm more blown away by the fact that you have to be like, please let me into your orgy. Am I hot enough? Yeah. Do I make the cut? Well, I had some kind of, you know, professional photos from my author. You didn't have to be nude or anything. like it was just like clothes just a headshot just a headshot or it might have had a body but

they were definitely clothes on them I sent that one off but Christian just had one like that I'd snapped at him at a kid's birthday party or something and go for the relatability clause well he hasn't had any professional shots he might now that he's a New York Times best-selling husband but I submitted that one and I remember afterwards saying to him because we had to be approved and I said oh I got in but you didn't oh he's like damn it I'm not hot enough I know it was tough but so so we got in amazingly that was a that was a scary thing it was quite expensive as well um it was about a thousand dollars a ticket and so we booked in this one was in Sydney we flew to Sydney it was all very dramatic we only got the actual details of where to go 24 hours

before via email and it was masquerade so you had to wear like cocktail dress and a mask and so Christian was sent out to get our masks and which he procured from spotlight this is the party bags all over again he's just got like a batman mask you're like I don't think you get the brief Christian he probably would have worn the batman mask his was a phantom of the opera mask which was the most plastic. As we arrived, there was someone on the door who had lots of instructions for us. She said, women can approach men, but men can't approach women. If someone propositions you, they touch you on the right shoulder. If you follow them, you can then go and do what you want with them, I suppose. If you don't follow them, they can't approach you again. So there

were all sorts of rules and regulations. And within about five minutes of being there, this big giant red-headed gorgeous dominatrix came up to Christian and touched him on the right shoulder and he's like am I allowed to take this research one step further well he looked at me he's like do I go I said no you don't go Jesus I mean we hadn't actually discussed it because I never thought that I don't know I don't know what I thought but I sent him to the bar where he spent the rest of the night just downing because alcohol was free so he was just drinking he was chatting to the women who were approaching him doing some great research for me and telling me who to speak to but it was my favorite moment and a lot of sex was going on right there were orgies everywhere

and they were amazing because the people were incredibly attractive and young and fit and most people were nude after you know a few rounds Christian and I were clothed I did take off my tights at one point because I thought it was a bit conspicuous but I looked over at Christian at the bar at one point and he was standing there just necking the beers and this man walked out next to him and he was dressed he reminded me of Tom Cruise in Risky Business because he was just wearing a shirt no socks I think he had bare feet and the shirt was covering his bum and I thought what's he got on under that shirt you know is it is he got undies on is he nude what's the story and right as I had that thought he turned to the right and his big giant boner hit Christian in the

leg and you're like bro you're supposed to tap me on the shoulder not tap me on the leg and I thought wow this is one of those moments in your marriage that you never think you're going to have and we talk about the boner all the time now and it's one of those things that you know you've got the birth of your children and you've got like these beautiful little moments and then we've got the boner and it will always be a kind of memory that I associate with Christian's great support of me as a writer so was there I'm so I am in I'm in that room right now with you like I'm imagining everything was there a time that you at all were in that room and just thought do you know what what we sort of want to join in like was there any part of you

that's like we're here it's a once-off let's just do it or was it just never did never cross your mind no it didn't mostly because I think that's something that I have never desired like when I was young and like enjoying sex with people like one person was enough for me you know one hot guy this like it was just a lot I think it might be my introvert side of me but while I could appreciate what it was it was magnificent if this is what you wanted it was absolutely the place to go but for me I think I'm just a one person sex kind of woman like who knew I thought that I was really wild and free but but it felt like being on a film set in a way and so it didn't spark desire I'm too scared to ask Christian that question but I would say he probably would have enjoyed it

although he's a bit of an introvert too so if there are any men listening to this podcast right now they're definitely going to be like can you be more like Christian's wife Sally yeah maybe you should write a book and we can go do some research together so did you learn a lot there did you get what you were after by going to these sex clubs I did what I got because the book was never and the book as it happened never got published but that's another story but what I was really looking for was not the gratuitous sex stuff. It was more the idea of why people go to sex parties. And one thing that I discovered was that a lot of the women had really interesting reasons. There was one woman who was a barrister and she had this really high powered job. She was

all about her career and she just didn't want to be dating on the apps because she felt unsafe. She didn't know, she didn't want to go to a stranger's house. And this allowed her to have sex in an environment that was controlled there was security there was a whole lot of rules around who could approach you she could make those decisions it was quite empowering for women in that way I mean you know without getting too far into whose fantasy it is etc the other thing I found was that there was a lot of bisexuality that was driving it and a lot of bisexual women who didn't want to risk their relationship with a man but still explore that side of themselves and that was the stuff that I'm interested in because while I love and it's such a funny story

to talk about the sex party I am really interested in what makes people tick why they do things that would potentially be judged and and what's the true story going on there and I found a lot of truth at that party a lot of boners a lot of orgies and a lot of truth sally as somebody who writes fiction novels where do you get and obviously you get your inspiration from things that happen in real life i.e sex parties but how much of it is made up in in your mind how much of it is fantasy and how much of it is actually real life like lived experiences the gossip that you saw when you were working in hr how much of it you do draw from your own life experiences? Look, they are made up. And I think I always tell the analogy that

these characters, or it probably could apply to a plot as well, is a third yourself, a third made up, and a third someone you know. So you do kind of lean a little bit on your life and there might be a little kernel or a little story that sparks a book. And you can't help as the author to bring a little bit of yourself to your book. Like I find that people who read my books see my humour in it, even in the dark moments, you know, I love a bit of black humour and that finds its way into the book. But real stories, for me, I'm a novelist by career. For me, it's never been about telling one story, telling a story that's close to my heart, like it is for some people who just write one book and that's what they always wanted to tell that story. For me, it's about storytelling.

and I think that doesn't matter what the story is it doesn't matter who inspired it or it's not me it's just about telling truths and how they can be revealed through story I can pluck a story from anywhere and and hopefully it'll allow me to reveal some truth what is it that you love so much about storytelling why has it been such a big part of your life that's a great question And I think that the best thing about storytelling as a reader, which is what I was first, or a viewer, I suppose, storytelling happens on TV or, you know, in many different ways, the theatre. Podcasting.

Yeah, absolutely. But storytelling is a way, and this is why everyone loves it. It's a way for you to experience life and experience things that you fear and big things that you're afraid of in a safe way, because you're stepping into someone's head, particularly in books and you're seeing out their eyes and you are experiencing life and death in a lot of them but you're safe and so you can think wow what would I do if I was thrust into a situation where you know I might die or I might lose a child or I might find out my husband's a murderer you can step into so many different worlds while being safe it's like a roller coaster ride in a way

that people love to do that. And I think it's just the most amazing way to glean strength, wisdom, empathy from life experience that you haven't had the opportunity to live yourself. And so I love to read that and I love to write that. That was such a good answer. Thanks. But your fifth book, The Mother-in-Law, was picked up by Amy Poehler's production company, which is absolutely huge. what was that moment like for you and how did that even come about do you have to go to people and be like look my book is so good can you turn into something or do they come and chase you down no thank goodness I'm not part of that process until the end uh there is my literary agent and then I also have a film agent who works specifically with book to film translations

which are huge at the moment because of Netflix and because of streaming services they just want so much content. And so basically when I write a book, it goes to my publisher and it also goes to my film agent who then scouts and looks for producers who are looking for content, particularly Paper Kite, which is Amy Poehler's production company, was specifically looking for female driven novels to translate, which also Reese Witherspoon quite famously does. And that connection was all made for me thank goodness where I came in was there were two meetings that I've had with Amy the first one was a phone call that I took in my car at 6am in my pajamas and my dressing gown it was like it wasn't a FaceTime no thank oh my god imagine that popping up at the

last minute that could have happened she'd probably love it so relatable she's probably in the same position too yeah yeah well as it happened she was in her car for that for that particular we bonded over it you're like I'm not a mom I'm a cool mom here I am I had to sit in there because I was scared my kids would wake up and come in and want to talk which they always bloody do when I'm on a call so before she joined the call I was on with my agent and he said and he's American he said Sally don't say anything just let her woo you you know she wants to buy your book because she I'm a blurter right and he was aware of that and but the moment that she joined the call you know there's a like a ping and then they join a conference call and she said hey it's amy and i

couldn't help it i just said hi amy it's sally i'm such a big fan of yours and god love her americans are so good at this don't you think australians are so awkward and we just like freak out but americans are just straight into it and she just said oh sally i'm such a big fan of yours and i was like oh and meanwhile your agent's like Sally you had one job one job and he's just face palming but it worked out because I then I think it was about three or four weeks later I was in New York on Good Morning America for the mother-in-law and my agent messaged me and said come home via LA Amy wants to have breakfast with you and so we did that and I met her at the Beverly Hills Hotel we had breakfast it was amazing and I did quite a good job of acting like we were peers as it were

and you know not blurting too much until it was time to walk to the car and I thought I have to get the selfie you know I can't not have the selfie and there's no way of asking for a selfie without losing all of your self-respect and all of your cred that you've just kind of 100% you just got to go for it though you get one chance show your shot and so I did and she was darling about it and didn't make me because there's the shame again that we've talked about the great shame and it was a dreadful picture of me I had about 15 chins and like it's big you know crazy eyes but we we took the photo and uh and now it's you know it's used everywhere because the media loved that one no she was lovely it was amazing and uh and hopefully now that the the pandemic's kind of

coming to an end we'll get more movement with with the series and and it'll get made. Sally you've mentioned this a couple of times and I would love you to unpack it a little bit but this idea of shame you mentioned it when you said you were talking about writer's shame and you mentioned it again is this something that you experience often like explain to me what that is for you? Oh writer's shame is my favorite thing to talk about and with my writers because no one else understands it unless you are well I suppose any kind of public facing job where you're out there and there's just so much potential to be humiliated every moment you're talking to the right people it comes from it's all the little things and it's the big things so people think you know you're a

New York Times best-selling author or you're a podcaster or you're golden you don't know shame but in fact they don't know that every day when you go to the school gates to pick up your kids someone will come up and say hey I read your book didn't like it as much as your last one or I found a spelling error on page 15 do you want me to email it to you okay thanks Karen yeah thanks email it to you thank you thank you for that or the husband at a barbecue who says oh would i have heard of you and you think probably not darren my favorite and worst one was after i'd done a talk at an event and it was really successful and it had gone really well and you know which is not always the case speaking of writer's shame you know sometimes you go to

an event and there's two people there and it's your mom and her friend so that there's another bit of shame but but this one had particularly had gone quite well so i was feeling good and then this man came up to me afterwards and said oh I came because I wanted to get a book for my wife because she's a huge fan of yours and she particularly loved Big Little Lies and he bloody sat through the whole thing oh wow to get a signed copy for his wife and it was the wrong author and then he kind of said um oh well I'm sure that she'd like your books too oh bless his soul look he put the effort in I guess like you know you can hold on to people's opinions and you can hold on to the things that people say and it can deeply affect you

or you can kind of accept the fact that you're not going to be everybody's cup of tea and one thing that I have seen that you do which I am all here for and find it very very entertaining is that you have in the past read out your one-star reviews on Instagram it's one thing to share your successes it's another thing to share your failures why do you want to share or read out your one star reviews I did that this morning actually I haven't done it for a while and what was this morning's one can we have it now I mean I feel like it's a really Australian thing to be far more comfortable with shame than with pride you know what I mean totally really have tall poppy syndrome in Australia. Yeah. Like it's far more comfortable. And the truth is about

one-star reviews, the majority of them are actually hilarious. And the other thing is about, I talk about the shame, but I do, it doesn't get to me. And I know that for some people, that's not always the case. And it might be because I'm an old lady and I'm accustomed to it. You're 41, Sally. I've been in the game of, well. You're a non-old lady. But I do separate my books from myself. You know, they are products it's not me and books we need reviews as as authors it's really important I'm grateful for them all including uh the the bad ones and so I can read them out and it doesn't ruin my day and it's same if I go to an event and only two people are there and one of them's my mom

I can live with that I also am aware that some people find it harder I was built with elephant skin as my mom says and everything's the opportunity for a funny story but for example here's one stephanie says of the mother's promise i'd give it no stars if i could it was predictable and not for me mad i wasted my time oh wow stephanie sometimes they say that they didn't finish and i think you know probably good life's too short it takes the how I think that that probably could bring it all back to shame and the one-star reviews it takes the power out of it you know I know they exist I know that that probably sometimes they make a good point other people like my books it's okay like we can we can have shame and still live a good

productive life and I think in saying that as well it's it's the understanding that like you you genuinely cannot make everybody happy you will not be everybody's cup of tea and being okay with that and that sometimes for all the hundreds of thousands of amazing reviews that you receive the very small amount of negative ones they can be the ones that really hit the hardest you know even though the skew and the percentage is completely out for some reason we're so negatively geared with with criticism verse praise and that's kind of what we lean into Sally you mentioned one thing about saying you're an old lady 41 people that are not that far behind you ouch but I'm an old soul it's not about the years I've you know all my friends say that I've been 60 ever since

I was 20 so I have no fears about aging well there can be a lot of I was gonna say there can be a lot of fear around aging I think a lot of people will say like oh you know I want to get this all done before I hit my 30s or I want to do this before I settle down and I think that sometimes we have this perception especially we haven't had kids or we haven't gotten married we think that kind of life ends we've got to do all these things before we settle down but life just continues and you can have so much incredible success after you do those big life milestones what has been for you when you look back on your 41 years what's been your favorite period of life this interview has there is nothing more you can possibly do I've peaked this is it and I feel for the you young

things that worry about that this is the highlight of my life this interview but also this period of my life. And I did an interview, I did a podcast called 40 recently with Lise and Sam. I just adore them. And they interview women who are 40 and older. And the thing that you will hear on that, it is without doubt for all of my friends who are all in different, you know, some are getting divorced, some are just having babies, some have older kids. We all agree this is the best time. And there is so much time, like even if you're 40 and you want to change your career, there is so much time Delia Owens wrote Where the Crawdads Sing when she was 65 and that was her first work of fiction I think she'd written a non-fiction book it's one of the

best-selling books of all time 41 I feel quite young to have had seven books published and I know that I've got the rest of my life because I don't plan to retire from writing books to continue to do that so I wish that that young women particularly would take that pressure off themselves you have time to do the things that you want to do it's never too late to to try something different in a responsible way I always say to people don't quit your job you know just try do something on the side and see if it grows legs it took me five years I think to to be able to be a full-time writer but I was doing it on the side and there's lots of time and life gets better every year's been better than the last for me. Sally they always say that parents shouldn't

have favorites or that they don't pick favorites do you have a favorite book that you've written I mean you have incredibly so written a book almost every year or pretty much to the date every year since you first published your first book which is your favorite oh I thought you were going to ask me who my favorite child was that would have been easier I'm going to cut this out I was like Keisha take a note we're cutting this I already know which one's your favorite it's the one that sleeps that's just that's some truth there look I really love the younger wife which is my most recent book and you know there's always an affection for for the one that's come most recently but they all have got a special place in my heart that the good sister which

was the book before that has a an autistic heroine and where there's autism in my family and it's something that I'm really passionate about advocating for so that one I very close to my heart. The mother-in-law, I love investigating that relationship that's so fraught and looking for the humanity behind it. I mean, The Secrets of Midwives, which I wrote while pregnant with my second child, and I love birth and babies. I really, I love and hate them all for all of the reasons that we have discussed earlier. But yeah, probably The Younger Wives is my favourite at the moment. Your books have been translated into 20 languages. You obviously have just been picked up by Amy Poehler's production company there are huge huge things happening to

you you've interviewed on Life Uncut like you're at I mean you're at the pinnacle of your career you're at the pinnacle of your career but I guess I guess what happens next for you when you feel like you're ticking so many boxes do you feel like that puts more pressure on you to keep performing at that level well I think I've been lucky in the sense that that success hasn't been overnight in fact it's been a series of steps and thankfully each book has kind of been more successful than the last so instead of being like some people who come out from nothing and then they're at the top of the New York Times bestseller list and then I think that that pressure would be would be real and would be immense but for me it sounds so airy-fairy but it is true and maybe it's just

my personality that I always focus on the work rather than the outcome and you know people say do you get anxiety when a new book comes out about sales or about this and my anxiety comes when I'm writing the book because that's when I have control over it and once the book comes out I really can't do anything about whether I mean apart from interviews and promotion but I'm also not the type that's going to be out there like I'm not an American I'm not good at saying hey buy my book I'm better at saying hey listen to these one-star reviews. Ultimately it really is just about keeping the focus on the work. By the time I have a book come out I'm already either just finished the next book or I'm almost finished it so my mind's full of that and I think busy people are the least

anxious people I find and so I just keep my mind on the work and hand it over to the universe I guess. Well, we will be the ones to tell you all to go and buy Sally Hetworth's newest book. It's called The Younger Wife. We have it right here. Now, Sally, just before we let you go, for anybody who maybe hasn't picked up one of your books yet, but they've listened to this podcast and they're like, gosh, she sounds like a bloody cool chick. I want to read this new one. What is The Younger Wife about? If you can give us your inspiration or a very, you know, however quick or however long you want to make it, what was your inspiration behind it? Well, so the inspiration actually came from my beloved great auntie Gwen who is like my grandma and she had a fall a couple of years ago

so I'd know isn't it funny how old people have a fall and young people fall over I just it's something that's yeah that's how you know that they're old but she'd had a fall and she called me and instead of saying come to the hospital she said I need you to go to my house and get my hot water bottle and I said why don't I just come to the hospital and she said no I need it and I said well I've got one I'll bring you my hot water bottle and she said no I need mine and I thought huh this is interesting and she's a bit of a not a shady character that's not true tell me it was filled with scotch or vodka or something that was not hot water I thought is there alcohol what's in the hot water bottle and so I was intrigued and so I drove to her house and the whole way

I was thinking what's in it I rang my brothers and we were all theorizing we thought maybe body parts because she just keeps fingers in a hot water bottle well like she and she's a 93 year old single woman I thought maybe a scorned ex-lover you know a human heart could be in there and wouldn't it be perverse if she wanted to keep it with her you know for the last moments of her life after a fall I couldn't stop thinking about it and so I got to her house I found the hot water bottle, which was quite well hidden. And I immediately looked in it, which she told me not to, but as if, and it's full of cash. I mean, tens of thousands of dollars. And great auntie Gwen was a woman of modest means, you know, she was not cashed up. And I thought, oh my God, she's a

granny drug dealer. What's going on? Well, yeah, like I was thought I knew something was up with Gwen. So I drove it to the hospital and I said, what's going on? I've found this cash. And she said, oh, it's, it was a combination of fear of banks, distrust of banks. And also she'd had a bit of a win at the pokies. But at that point, that was not as interesting to me as a human heart or, you know, a granny drug dealer and the seed had been planted. And that really formed the kind of one of the big storylines in The Younger Wife which just quickly it's called The Younger Wife but really it's about family dysfunctionality which is what all of my books are about. It's about an adult family, a mother, a father, two adult daughters and it's about what happens when

the father divorces his wife who's now in a nursing home with dementia and gets engaged to woman who is the same age or a little bit younger than his daughters and that decision then has this knock-on effect to the whole family and starts kind of unraveling secrets in the way that that these changes do so um yeah you get a little bit there's a crime there's a dead body and then there is just a whole lot of secrets what is your one piece of advice you would leave for people that are contemplating a career change thinking about it don't know how to do it they're scared of it they think it's too late what's your one thing that you would tell them google it yeah cool it's all there it's all on google okay that was actually her advice cool i thought it was a joke

i actually that makes me sound so uncharitable but i actually do you know what i would say is that when I get these messages of people who want to meet with me to pick my brain, and I get a lot of them and I will do it a lot of the time. But what I always say to them is that there's this myth that it's about who you know and your connections rather than the book. And I didn't know a single person. I didn't have a single connection. I Googled it. I wrote the book. I kept trying to write a better book and then I blind queried like you know without a single connection so maybe it would make it easier if you knew someone if you you know were best friends with the New York Times best-selling author or they gave you an introduction but in fact if you

write a good product then you've got every reason that you should get that book published or whatever it is that you're decided to do who you know I don't think is all that it's cracked up to be I think that you know go make it on your own because there's there's an incredible self-esteem that can't be taken away from you if you just do have a crack and and do it yourself and yes take advice from people if you can but it's all on there it's all on google the only way to guarantee failure is to not give you a crack at all so i feel like that is what a great point in this episode to sign off on thank you brit for like that that was like the beautiful heartfelt instagram quote is how we're going to wrap this whole thing up. Sally Hetworth, thank you so much for being a part of

the podcast. Thank you for sharing your wisdom, your incredible stories and for allowing us to share that with our audience as well. It's truly been a pleasure interviewing you. Nobody who's listening to this podcast knows we actually tried to do this once prior and it was a disaster because of technology. Well, they do know now. But we're just so grateful that you've made the time for us twice. I'm just still hoping that it uploads. Where can everyone find you? What are your handles what your husband's handles where can we buy your book even though i know we can buy it in 20 languages everywhere you can find me i'm mostly on instagram and it's at sally hetworth and that's where i hang out uh christian is at mr sally hetworth i think uh and you get to

see his endeavors and uh you can buy the books at most good bookstores but also you know on on your kindle on amazon on you know wherever you get your you know that we never finish an episode with that our suck and our sweet our highlight and our low light of each and every week Brittany Hockley you can go first what is your suck baby my suck is I went for a walk yesterday morning in the rain because it is the rain here is horrific that's a suck on its own actually but I got back inside and you know when you're a bit frantic it started to pour and I was like I just need to get home was running frantically got inside walked inside onto my rug when the smell hit me and i realized i had walked in dog shit and i walked into my house and i walked into my

rug i have one of those rugs that's like like a hairy shag rug shag rug like it really gets in there you know what's even more disappointing is that i'm sitting on the hairy shag rug right now thoroughly cleaned it but that was definitely my actually it was right where you're sitting great is that why it smells orangey fresh right now like citrusy yes in this whole apartment i had to like throw bleach around the whole apartment that was my suck my suite was actually following on from our kindness episode I did I had a moment where I was like this is my moment I'm gonna do my kindness act I had this is actually another walk I'd walked up to the other end of Bondi and I was getting in the lineup for a coffee and there was a girl with a dog and

she had a little dog and it was like quite aggressive she was sort of standing back with it and it was quite it was like a little Maltese and it was going bonkers like trying to eat everyone and try and like barking I didn't realize she was in a line because she was just like holding the dog she was off to the side so I just like pushed in front of her without knowing stood there and then her dog was really aggressively trying to get me she's like oh I'm so sorry I'm just trying to order coffee and I was like oh my god I pushed in front of you and she was like oh no it's fine like she was so great she was so fine and I was like oh my gosh let me buy your coffee I was like what would you like we had this whole argument where she's like my dog is literally

trying to attack you you're not buying me a coffee she kept saying no you know when you someone won't accept anything and I was like god damn it I was like I look I'm a podcaster I've just done an episode on kindness it's kindness week last week I'm supposed to pay it forward like I'm already a week late I was like I'm a week late let me buy you because she was like whoa okay she's like buy my coffee so I finally bought a copy she's like next time I see you in Bondi I'm gonna buy yours and that was my sweet of the week so you harassed someone into buying a coffee I peer pressured someone that was my sweet yeah after a week I mean good it's good to stagger these sweets out because if you'd done it last week it would have been I mean it just would have gotten lost in the

see of everyone else's kindness act so totally like you gotta stand out and she's also like i'm sorry my dog's actually 18 years old and it's senile he's yeah she's like i can't do anything about the barking at everyone she's like he won't ever hurt you but it's just bonkers and i'm she's like i was like he's old let him live his life he's over it yeah as we would be at that point why are you taking me for walks in the rain piss off let me sit in my bed okay my suck and sweet my suck for the week is that lola is just going through like a very very clingy phase at the moment. I mean, she's 10 months. So can you blame her? She doesn't go out on her own anymore. So exhausting. No, she's, um, she's just really, really clingy, but only clingy with me.

And as much as it sounds cute. And sometimes it is sometimes I'm like, Oh, it's so nice to be wanted and loved. It's a lot at the moment, like any sort of separation. And there's a lot of screaming. And I think for sometimes as well, like if you have one kid that's like very, very attached, it makes it a little bit easier for the other parent. Cause Matt's always now like, oh she just wants you here she is yeah oh you have to take her again so that's been my suck even to the point where just putting her in the car seat is a screaming match because she can't see me so I need to get a mirror or something there but anyway and my sweet for the week is there's been a really it's been a great week us going out for lunch even though the hangover I'm

still suffering from it that was amazing but then from like Tony May perspective it is a very busy crazy week because it's Black Friday week so I'm like just loving this is like my as much as it's like the biggest week for work it's also like the most fun week in prep it's like the week that laura's like i'm draining this week all year but she gets here and i'm like i love this week she's also like i hate this week so for anybody who likes tony may some bloody good sales on but that's not till thursday but it's been a very good hashtag not sponsored hashtag it is sponsored no just go go buy yourself some jewels everyone needs them but it's been a very good week for work so that's my sweet well that is it from us guys we hope you like the episode and we do

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