Life Uncut - Should The Person Earning More Pay More? Uncut with Money Expert Tori Dunlap

Episode Date: July 23, 2024

Tori Dunlap is a New York Times best selling author and host of the #1 money podcast for women in the world and was a self made millionaire in her 20’s. Tori is unapologetic about her finances. She uniquely doesn’t just talk about numbers but the systemic issues and value systems behind money and how much control we actually have over personal finances.In our chat we speak about: Unpacking where our values and beliefs about money come from,  How the patriarchy really fucked us up when it comes to financial independence Why the stock market and investing scares most of us & how complicated it really is What the priority is between savings, debt, emergency funds etc The mistakes women make investing Renting vs buying a home - what is best for you? Talking about money in your relationship Splitting costs like hens parties & dinner with friends Should the person earning more pay more? Should you have transparency over what your partner earns? Should you ever fully combine finances? You can find everything from Tori including her book and her website You can follow Tori on Tori's Instagram You can watch us on Youtube Find us on Instagram Join us on tiktok Or join the Facebook Discussion Group Tell your mum, tell your dad, tell your dog, tell your friend and share the love because WE LOVE LOVE! xxSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Life Uncut acknowledges the traditional custodians of country whose lands were never ceded. We pay our respects to their elders past and present. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. This episode was recorded on Cammeraygal land. Hi guys and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Laura. I'm Brittany. And I am so freaking excited for today's interview because it is somebody who I think is fucking great. Isn't she? I've been listening to a podcast for a very long time. That's Tori Dunlap. Tori Dunlap is a New York Times bestselling author.

She's the host of the number one money podcast for women in the entire world. And she's also a self-made millionaire by the time she was in her 20s. Yeah, self-proclaimed. She talks about that all the time. Self-made and self-proclaimed. Now, the thing that I find endearing, I think some people might find it off-putting because traditionally we as a society don't love powerful women who are super comfortable in their own agency. But the thing that I love about Tori is how completely unapologetic she is about her finances, how she speaks about her wealth and her success on social media. I think a lot of people

would think and maybe see it as gloating. And I know from looking at the comments that she receives, some men in particular leave her some pretty atrocious comments. And yet she's still someone who has so much confidence in what she can bring to the world. So her book and her podcast is The Financial Feminist. And she talks a lot about how the patriarchy just absolutely fucked women up in terms of trying to take any agency or control for ourselves, for our place in the financial world, making our own money and being independent with our finances, not relying on anyone else. A couple of things that we talk about in this episode, we talk about the importance, especially

for women to have money that is theirs and theirs solely, whether that is like your backup fund or some sort of amount of money that means that you're never, ever in a situation where you're dependent on someone else in a relationship for your own safety and for your own independence. We also talk about the thing that I think a lot of women think is just too complicated to fully understand. And that is investing. We talk about the stock market. We talk about shares. We talk about business. And for so long, investment as a whole and that world of investing has been gatekept by men and has been gatekept as conversations that men will have and women have been othered from it. Now, the way in which Tori speaks about this as being something that

we can understand, we can take ownership of, and actually we really need to in order to be able to be financially independent and literate is really interesting. And a big part of this conversation, which I really loved, is finances in relationships, not just romantic relationships, but also your friendships, splitting money, owning the fact that maybe you can't go to attend things like hen's parties or weekends away, big elaborate birthdays, 40th birthdays. But then within the romantic world, splitting finances, transparency around what each other earns and how you should be splitting things in a relationship. And also something a lot of people debate within themselves and within their relationship, and that is renting versus buying properties. So let's get into the

chat with Tori. Tori, welcome to Life Uncut. Thank you for having me. This feels like a very long time coming. I have been following your Instagram. I have been following your TikTok for so long now, and you have been like very high up on our hit list of people that we've wanted to speak to. And also because, I mean, we talk so much about relationships here, romantic relationships that is, but I think that there is so much to be said. One about money in relationships like romantic relationships but also your relationship with money yeah but also as women like our relationship with money and money seems to be the taboo thing that we don't talk about and don't talk about it in the same way that I think a lot of men feel comfortable

in speaking about money and that's the thing that I have loved so much about following your Instagram and following your socials is how unapologetic you are about not just the money you've made for yourself, but the way in which you speak about money in general. It's very, very cool to see. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, both of what you just said. So our relationship to money is the thing that often gets overlooked. And it's the thing that I joke in my book, Financial Feminist, it's the ostrich effect who bear our head in the sand. We act like our problems don't exist. We don't acknowledge any of our financial problems and we just expect them to go away. And then when it comes to romantic relationships, it's the number one cause of

separation. Like money, personal finance, not understanding it and also not talking about it, especially pre like commitment is super common. So I'm just excited to be here. I definitely want to get into more of the reasons why exactly money is so divisive in a relationship. But before we do, we want to hear your embarrassing story. Okay. So first we have to tell you who, and if you don't know who this is, do you know Abby Wambach? Do you know who this is? No, no. Okay. Especially since you're Australian, might not know as well. But this story hinges that I did not know who this was. So 2019, I went to see Elizabeth Gilbert speak with my mentor. Elizabeth Gilbert wrote Eat, Pray, Love, Big

Magic, City of Girls. She's incredible. If you ever get a chance to hear her speak live, drop whatever money you have to on a ticket. She's absolutely incredible. And there was this woman sitting next to us. And this girl came up and asked her for a photo. And so we're like, who who is this woman? And my mentor, cause she's just great. And like, we'll be the curious person is like, hi, who are you? What do you do? And she goes, oh, I'm Abby. I'm a soccer player. And the woman sitting in front of us in the row in front of us, whips her head around random stranger and just goes, that's not a soccer player. She is one of the best soccer players to ever live. And anybody who's listening to me right now is like devastated because this woman, like arguably

one of the best women to ever play, but definitely like top three, top five, especially in the United States, like world cups over and over and over again. She's also now married to Glennon Doyle, which you might know as we could do hard things. Of course. Now I know exactly who you're speaking about. Yeah. So this is pre that I did not follow soccer. I didn't know who anybody was. And now I am the biggest Abby Wambach stan and my partner is obsessed with stalker. And so I tell him the story when we first meet and he's like, you fucking did what? And I feel like so embarrassed. The very funny thing too is that I was literally in the green room to go on Good Morning America

about two months ago and she followed me on Instagram. And I am like shitting my pants crying about to go on live television. and I don't care about good morning America anymore. I care about that. Abby Wambach just followed me. So I sent her a voice note. I haven't told her this story yet because eventually I will when I get to meet her, but the voice note was literally, I should play it. It was like, um, hi. So welcome. Thanks. Thanks for being here. Welcome. I was just, I'm very excited. And that's literally how I ended it. Welcome to my Instagram. truly I'm just like welcome thanks for being here you're a big inspiration you and Glennon are great

so it was just I look back and in the moment I was so embarrassed because I'm literally like googling her I'm being like oh fuck she's a big deal and then now knowing what I know about her and following her and Glennon's work I just feel like a complete idiot but it's gonna be a fun story someday I reckon you guys are gonna be besties I hope so yeah I think she's fantastic I think she's so hot I think she's just she and Glennon are so cool and I think about that's one of the ones that keeps me up at night of just like feminist icon one of the best athletes of all time and you did not know who that was this is gonna come back and be better for you in the long run because you know I think people always appreciate it when they're like oh you're not like fangirling

now you've done your research and now you actually appreciate me for who I am rather than just being like a crazy sycophant in the moment not being able to get your words out yeah but I feel like it's different when it's one thing to play it cool and not like comment on their soccer or what they do but it's another thing to say who are you what do you do like once you've asked that question what I loved about her and this is just a great takeaway for people in general so humble I'm a I play soccer and like she had retired I think by this point but like and then you know the other women around her who are like what the fuck you don't just play soccer like you're not just you know a soccer play so I just love that too just like the most humble

of just like oh I'm Abby I used to play soccer well it's like what do you do you're not like hi I'm Abby I'm the best in the world right you don't know who I am no but some people do that a lot of men do that you don't know who I am right and it was just a lovely interaction she was a lovely human being and and now she follows me on Instagram so congratulations I love the personal voice message as well. Tori, let's talk about money. Let's talk about your relationship with money, what that was like and how you found yourself wanting to help millions of women around the world develop a better relationship with money. So I graduated college in 2016. You can probably tell from my accent, I'm American. I graduated with dual degrees in organizational

communication, which is like marketing with less math and theater. And my goal was to stomp the pavement and be like girl boss VP of marketing by 30. And I had my little, you know, my pencil skirt and my briefcase. And that's how I know it's a fantasy is I've never worn a pencil skirt in my goddamn life. But that was the plan is, okay, I was going to rise up the ranks and I was going to do this. Two things happened. One, very personally, I, my first job out of college, I got paid pretty well, a lot of good experience. I was traveling a lot. I was getting to go to cool things, but it was one of the most sexist environments I've ever been in. And so the rose colored goggles came off pretty quick when I realized oh do I have just 40 years of this like is this just what

I'm doing for the rest of my life until I'm too old to work anymore maybe and I get to retire the second thing that happened in the United States is Donald Trump got elected so I am coming into adulthood and into womanhood in a very different country than I think a lot of us Americans expected we expected our first female president we got orange so what we really were trying to figure out. And what I was trying to figure out is like, okay, I'm 22. And the election really radicalized me. And I was trying to figure out what kind of person do I want to be? What do I stand for? How can I use what I have, even though, you know, I'm a little baby to change the world. And I realized that in my own life, when I had money, I had options. When I had money,

I had the ability to leave a bad situation I didn't want to be in anymore. I had the ability to start a business or to donate to causes I believed in or to travel. And I was also the friend all of my friends were coming to for advice and guidance around money. So the blog that later became her first 100K was born in 2016, rebranded a couple of years later after my own journey to save 100K at 25. I successfully achieved that goal. I went to Europe to celebrate. I got the call actually to be on GMA for the first time in a pub in London, came home, did the interview and quit my job three weeks later. So now we are a company of 15, 16 people. We have 5 million social media followers. We have the number one business podcast and money podcast for women in the world

called Financial Feminist. I'm a New York Times bestselling author and I fight the patriarchy by making women rich. And that's what I believe I was put on this earth to do. You're friends with a world-class soccer player, just to add that to this. Oh, friends. Don't tempt me with a good time. i find this so fascinating because maybe it's a situation where how it's happened so accumulatively but very very quickly because like there's always that conversation around money where it's like well you need to have money to make money so i always think about the people who are starting at rock bottom and then for people who are maybe in a job that's minimal wage or they're in a situation where they're like i cannot comprehend having financial freedom and not living paycheck

to paycheck if we're going to appeal to those people now and i think about myself when i was like, you know, just fresh out of uni and I was working in nightclubs and, and it felt so hard and it felt so far away to ever be able to have any type of financial comfort, not even financial freedom. Security. Yeah. When you were fresh out of uni, what were the first steps? Like what are the first things that people need to be doing to put a bit of safety net around themselves when it comes to money? Yeah. I want to first acknowledge the feeling that I think most of us have, which is, this is not for me. This will never be for me. There's no way. I think, unfortunately, the radical part of my work is that we acknowledge that the personal finance equation is about 20%

your personal choices. So 20% how well you manage your money and how well you manage a credit card and do you know how to invest and do you know how to manage debt responsibly. And 80% is sexism, racism, homophobia, ableism, a trillion dollar student debt crisis, especially in the United States, lack of paid family leave, especially in the United States, like all of the things that have much more to do with your daily experience, you know, the rising cost of rent, the inability to purchase a home. It came out of Australia, the guy who was like avocado toast, like all of that has a much bigger impact on your money inflation than, you know, whether or not you are buying that latte every other day. So I think that that's the first thing to acknowledge is that if you're

feeling like a financial failure, it has very little to do with your own choices and everything to do with a system that's failing you. So that's the first thing to acknowledge, which is why my work is not only teaching you how to get better with money, but working to change the system that exists. The second thing we can do very concretely to start getting you better with money is understanding that you need an emergency fund before you need anything else. Yes, even before you pay off debt, even before you prioritize investing, because I need you to have money in the bank should something happen. Something always comes up. You get laid off, your hours get cut, there's a roof repair, you get a flat tire, like there's a million things that can happen.

And a lot of people go into financial hardship because they don't have savings. So we want to automate our savings, set up an automatic transfer, maybe that's every time you get paid or once a month of either a percentage or a dollar amount. So maybe that's 5% of your paycheck or $200 a month or whatever you can do to start saving that emergency fund. We also save an emergency fund uniquely as women because I need you to have money to get out of a bad situation. I need you to have the ability to leave a situation that you don't feel safe in anymore, whether that's a relationship, a living situation, a job. I see countless amounts of women, and we know from so many various statistics that the reason women are not able to leave bad situations is because they can't

financially afford to do so. And the last thing I want you doing with any sort of emergency is being stressed about how you're going to afford it or how you're going to have the option to leave. So getting that emergency fund together is both fantastic no matter who you are to protect you, but also really, really crucial for women. How much money do you think someone should have in this emergency fund? What does that look like as a minimum? Yeah. So we walked through it even more in my book, but it's three months of living expenses in a high yield savings account. And we're going to build to that over time, right? Dave Ramsey is very popular here in the United States. And I have a big vendetta against him if you follow my content. I have seen that.

Yeah. He has this whole thing that $1,000 is a good enough emergency fund. $1,000 doesn't cover half my rent. Doesn't get you anything anymore. Yet alone anything else. And saving $1,000 is great. I'm not knocking that accomplishment, but that's not enough. And so I think that even if you're stressed with debt, credit cards, student loans, something else, we still need you saving that emergency fund first because of, again, all of the reasons I just listed, you not going into more expensive debt and you being able to get out of a bad situation. But it's also nice to be a man who's never been in a situation where they couldn't leave a relationship because they didn't have access to money. What a lovely privilege that is to be able to save $1,000 and that be

enough to cover your emergencies. I don't mean to quote myself, but I literally have a quote in the book where I'm like, the entire, I'm going to butcher my own quote, but it's something like like women and you know members of any marginalized group are spending money to fix problems that like men have created and yet have no idea that they exist right like that's half of what our spending is i think as women this is just like oh i can't live in that cheaper apartment because it's not a safe area so i have to move to the slightly more expensive apartment same thing with like queer folks like there's a reason there's not a lot of queer people who live in you know more prejudiced states, especially in the US, they're moving to San Francisco. They're moving to Seattle or New

York where they feel safer. So there's just so, again, this is the larger conversation. Money's not just about your personal choices. And that's not the majority of what's going on here. It has everything to do with all of the rest of the stuff that we're all trying to navigate. Okay. So the woman now has put her emergency fund away. She's got that. Where does she go from there to start to get ahead? Yeah. The next thing is to pay off your credit card debt if you have any. Your credit card debt And again, I'm speaking the US, but I know Australia is similar, 15, 18% interest that's just starting all the way up to 30%. And that's probably killing your budget and killing your

financial life. So that's where we're going next. After then, we're going to start prioritizing retirement. So it's emergency fund, paying off our high interest debt, and then investing in the stock market and prioritizing our own retirement. And we have chapter three in my book is all about this. And we literally call it the financial game plan. It's what to do in what order. It's how to know, okay, this is checked off and when to move on to the next thing. But the automation I think is really key. When we automate our savings or we automate money towards our debt, what's happening is it's on autopilot. We're doing it without thinking about it. And too many people wait to the end of the month to start saving or the end of the month

to start putting extra money towards their debt. And then what happens? Well, they don't have any extra money because they spent it all. So I think we call it paying yourself first in the personal finance community. But it's like, you're another bill like that, you know, credit card debt or that emergency fund is another bill that you're sending money to even before the rest of your money hits your checking account. What about this idea? And I think it can be really toxic because it leaves people feeling as though they're either not trying hard enough or that they're doing something wrong, but it's like, well, if you work hard, then you'll earn more money. Like the harder you work, the more money you'll earn. Yep. We debunk that in the book too. I start

literally with like every single chapter is all the narratives you've been believing about a certain topic. So that one shows up in the first chapter, which all, which is all about the emotions of money. And one of those, and we call it the bootstraps narrative in America, which is like, just work hard enough and you'll become a millionaire. And if you're not a millionaire or you're not financially successful, it's because you're not working hard enough. I'm sorry. That's gaslighting bullshit. Like we're all working hard. It's not about not working. It's not about a lack of effort it's about a lack of support and again a system that disenfranchises us and i think that's one of the hardest things to hear that is just you know drenched in shame

is thinking oh my god i the reason i'm not financially ahead is because you know i need to be doing more that's capitalism that's capitalism demanding you work as hard as possible to get ahead when really the support needs to come from policies in a system that makes it easier to live and easier to pay for things and easier to navigate you know I spoke about this earlier on I said that you have this real unapologetic nature on social media when it comes to even talking about how much money you've earned or when you've hit financial milestones and then the either the the negative comments that you'll receive from people are like is she even a millionaire giving this financial advice but how is it that you yourself in a world that's

framed where women are not supposed to talk about money. Women are not supposed to talk about how much they earn. It's crass or looked down upon in a way. How is it that you found a place where you were like, you know what, I'm going to talk about money and I'm going to talk about it specifically. I'm going to talk about amounts, not just like a general idea of like, yeah, I'm financially stable. And I think it's the fact that like you put a figure to it that is something else. It's also when you see that you're like, wow, that's ballsy. Like you have bulls to do that i wish it wasn't so brave like i think that well first of all we know from statistics it's the number one conversation we avoid we will talk about death sex politics

religion before we'll talk about money yet to your point earlier men are out here talking about money all the fucking time they're out here talking about money all the time and they're out here on social media talking about money and they're just worshipped the comments you know oh i made $500,000 last month drop shipping. And the comments are like, Oh my God. Right. And it's like, Elon Musk is worshiped like Steve jobs, right? Terrible person by all accounts. Right. But like a genius, we as a society don't like women who like themselves a hundred percent. So when you see, I'm giving a broader you here, when society sees a woman who likes herself, who is unabashedly going after the things she wants, who is confident, who likes her body,

who likes who she is and what she stands for, you have an opportunity to go, oh, I can use that as inspiration or, oh, I feel threatened. And I think the patriarchy feels threatened. I am the patriarchy's worst nightmare. And God, that feels great. Me standing in my power, me having enough money to buy the things I want, to donate to causes I believe in, to start a business that gives women jobs. That feeling is the feeling I want for every single woman because I don't have to play small. I don't have to go on a date and sit through the whole thing wondering if he's going to pay if I'm over it. I can throw down my credit card and I don't have to worry about it. I can fire a client. I don't have to work at a job that doesn't respect me because I can

to financially afford to leave. There's so much flexibility with that. And so I think that what happens is the patriarchy sees me or another woman standing in their power, claiming what they want unabashedly, talking openly about money, and it panics. It panics and goes, she's no longer controllable. She's no longer controllable. So I'm going to then try to control by saying oh why do you want more that's so greedy or why don't you just keep your head down and keep working why again why are you asking for more money or the comments I get all the time like you're not very likable anymore okay it's because you're no longer quote unquote relatable because you said hey yes this is who I am this is what I earn and so many other women really really want

that and they don't know how and it's crazy because you're teaching them how but they're still not there yet so they instead of what you said they're threatened i also have a shit ton of privilege right and i acknowledge that all the time and have to continue to acknowledge that there's i will never say to you i can do it so you can do it too because i don't think that's real however we have seen literally millions of women change their lives with the information we provide and it might not be hitting multi-millionaire status it might just be i have enough money to leave that job I don't want to be in anymore. Or I have, you know, enough money to be able to start a business that I've been really passionate about. What are the type of comments that you do

receive? Like what's the type of feedback? Because I think it is feedback and comments that is only reserved to being a woman who's working in finance. A hundred percent. I mean, we can put a trigger warning all over this. I mean, it's everything from death threats and I get called fat and unlovable on the internet probably every minute like i wish i was exaggerating it's probably every minute like we have a couple posts going viral right now that have gone to the inside of instagram where men feel so threatened and it's so cute they like are they will just say comments where they think that like the the most popular ones are like you might be pretty if you lost 40 pounds or whatever and it's like first of all it's interesting that you think that they don't mean beautiful they

mean skinny right so that's first of all and second of all that my biggest goal in life is to be attractive to you that that is my purpose in life and god oh if only random user two six seven nine five thought like i'll lose 30 pounds like i think that it's it's a lot of shit from men which honestly i think is so hilarious and just proves my point yeah it fuels the energy and it fuels the conversation that you're able to have with people who follow you online. It definitely does. And I get to clap back and it's great. But the thing that really disturbs me as the women, because again, what happens is we've been taught and socialized as women to believe there's one seat at the table, right? There's one seat at the table for us. So if

Tori Dunlap got that seat already, I don't get it anymore. So we have to tear her down. We have to feel threatened. We, there are multiple seats at the table and this is why I'm building my own table because I don't like any of the tables that are out there that are convincing us as women that we need to tear each other down in order to get opportunities. So that's the thing that really bugs me is the internalized misogyny that women have, which is again, seeing a woman in her own power and going, I wish she would stop bragging about your accomplishments. That's the number one thing I get from women. Again, I wish you would be quiet because you liking yourself makes me uncomfortable because it makes me realize I don't like myself that much. So we speak about

how the patriarchy has a stronghold across everything when it comes to finances, but I think in particular, it's investing. I think we have been, and even myself, and I would say that I am relatively good with money now. It's a learned skill. It's not something that I was born being good at by any means. But it is something that over the last five years in particular, I have really put a lot of energy into. And part of that is around investing. But I think for a long time, I was like, it's too hard. It's too big. And I othered it so much. But now that I understand it, there's something really powerful in that. Can I tell you what happened there? Yeah, of course.

Because that's the thing. So we are convinced, especially money in general, but with investing in the stock market, particularly that it's too hard, too complicated. I'm scared of losing money. I'm scared of making a mistake. I'm scared of not doing it correctly. This is the number one fear we hear from women. And it's also backed up in the data that the number one reason women don't invest is fear. My not so conspiracy conspiracy theory. We have a multi-billion dollar industry, the finance industry built by straight white men on the backs of making you feel like you're too stupid to understand. Like that's what this industry is, is it's using a lot of jargon and telling you it's really complicated. So you either won't do it. So it keeps you out of the equation. It keeps

you powerless because you don't have enough money to support yourself or so that you give your money to a random hedge fund manager named Chad. So he can charge you a 3% fee and you're going 3%. That's not a lot. That is way more than you should be paying. And like, this is what's happening is we've been convinced as women that it's too confusing, that we're too stupid to understand. and I don't have a degree in finance, so I can't do it. None of that is true. And I just want to debunk that so hard because we're teaching women how to invest for themselves. You can and should do it for yourself. And all of these narratives are perpetuated to keep you out of the power and the money and the stability. But I think it's because it's been marketed that way for so long.

It's been marketed as a man's world. We even talk about when women are dating, they're like, I want to finance bro like everything's for the man's world stocks shares managed funds hedge funds investing online investing everything is marketed towards the man and for the woman it's like oh if you want to get ahead stop spending money on clothes stop spending money on makeup like the patriarchy there is thriving like this is where it lives so of course the woman's like oh it is the man's world I'll just give my money to a man to do what is your advice obviously read your book listen to your podcast but what is your first bit of advice for a woman sitting there right now listening being like, I've got five grand savings that I've been sitting on for a long

time that I want to invest, but I don't know where to start. I don't want Chad to fucking take my 3%. So what is like your baseline level of advice for investing that initial money? Yeah. I love what you just said. Cause yeah, I bring this up in my book where the advice for women is stop spending and the advice for men is make more money. And the advice for men is actually great advice, right? Like invest in real estate, invest in the stock market, negotiate your salary start a business that makes a lot of money and the advice for women is like that to your person it you cow right like that's what the advice is for women yeah you spend too much money on getting your hair done buying clothes like avocado it's very frivolous in

terms of like the way in which we speak about spending and this is what i say is that frivolous spending i'm putting this in air quotes is only things that are feminine stereotypically lattes manicures cut and color it's not nfl season tickets it's not golf clubs it's not video games right very very interesting and by the way the very things too that we are being shamed for especially around our physical appearance right the manicure the the cut and color the eyebrow threadings or whatever you're picking those are the same things that if I didn't spend them if I didn't spend money on makeup you would tell me I look tired at work and I wouldn't get a promotion it was exactly what I was going to say like you want us to turn up in the pencil skirt with a

nice bag in the briefcase the high heel shoes you want us to have the makeup the hair done the brows the lashes every right and i'm paying for it a hundred percent but we're not going to pay you the right amount of money or wage to afford that but still that's what you've got to do okay investing let's talk about it so a couple mistakes people make first of all the number one mistake i see women make investing accounts are a two-step process so they're not like bank accounts where you take let's say a thousand dollars and you put it in an account with investing accounts you have to take your, let's say a thousand dollars. You put it in the account. Step one, step two, you have to choose your investments. Women don't know this because no one teaches

them this. I joke. It's like a TJ Maxx gift card. It's like a target gift card. Do you guys have target? Great. Okay, cool. Because I don't think they have it in Canada and Canadians are very mad at me whenever I bring up target. You put money on the gift card, right? And then you got to go buy plants and candles and throw pillows, right? So it's a two-step process. If you don't do step too. If you put the money in an investment account, but you don't actually choose your investments, it doesn't make you any money. It is in what I call financial purgatory. It's just sitting there waiting for you to be invested. I tell a story in the book, and unfortunately, we get these stories a lot of people before they have followed us who put thousands, hundreds of

thousands of dollars in an investing account and years go by, and they don't actually invest that money because no one told them how. So then they reach retirement age or they reach the age where they're like, cool, I probably have a million dollars saved. They do not because they never actually did step two. So that's the number one thing I need women to know is that when you manage your investments, put the money in and then choose your investments. When it comes to choosing your investments, I personally love an index fund. An index fund is a group of stocks. So rather than just putting all of your eggs in one company basket, right? Putting all of your money towards Amazon or all of your money towards Tesla or insert company here, what you can do is purchase

an index fund that has hundreds of companies, sometimes thousands of companies so that you can diversify that money. Is an index fund the same as a managed fund where it's like, I'm just thinking of Australian terminology or is it very different? It is very different. I appreciate you asking this again, more in my book about it if you're confused, but no managed funds are different than index funds. So index funds are passively managed, which means there's no wall street Chad, like doing any sort of lever pulling. Managed funds, however, you're paying an extra fee for a random stranger who's not even good at his job to manage it for you, to pick the investments. I do not invest in managed funds. I talk about just, yeah, I would not advise them. We know that

only 25% of stock pickers are actually good at their job, meaning they outperform an index fund. so this is again why you shouldn't give your money to a brad or chad or dad like you need to manage it yourself we have a community called stock market school it's only available for americans right now but we're working on fixing that that we literally do live coaching i walk you through step by step how to invest all of that so that's available but yeah i think that the managed funds are kind of a scam i have a personal experience in this like skin in the game i had a managed fund for seven years, which was a, it was a borrowed again. So basically like you put $2,000 in and then you borrow against the bank $2,000. So then accumulatively it's $4,000 that's going

into investment. So then you, at the end of that, you pay off the bank, but you're supposed to have more money because you were able to invest more. I remember you telling me about it and trying to get me in on it. Well, at the time. So like, I mean, for a period there, everything seemingly was great. Seven years in is what it was. And I like literally it broke even, like there was no point in doing it because at the end of the day, there was a Chad who was not very good at his job. It's not his money. So he doesn't care. He's making 3%. He's not proactively trying to get the best thing for his client because he makes the money regardless. So I mean, not that you need any backup on that sort of advice, but like personally, it resonates with me because I've been

in that situation and I've seen the effort that goes into the saving and then nothing, there's no fruition at the end of it. Yeah. No, I appreciate you backing me up on that because I think it's really important to hear from someone who isn't a finance expert that that was your lived experience people don't know what they don't know and especially women because again we're we're told that it's too confusing and that we should hand it over to a professional and yet a huge chunk of the professionals are either not good at their job or they're recommending things for you that just make them money but don't actually you know they're not actually the best recommendation and also there's so many i have so many stories of like women going into their financial advisor

or you know a stock picker's office with like their male partner and all of this guy does is just talk to the guy in the relationship the entire time and you want somebody that understands you you want somebody who you know is licensed you want somebody who's going to reflect your values but I personally think 99% of people you don't need a financial advisor you can do this yourself and you frankly should do it yourself. Tori I'd love to talk to you about property and now I don't know if there's going to be a really big difference. Well, I know there is a difference, but between American US property and Australian property. And I know, I don't know if you know another financial advisor that's, you know, online, Ramit Sethi. Yeah, Ramit, he's a good

friend. He's in my book as well. Oh, great. So Ramit, you know, someone else that I've listened to, I listened to his podcast, love his advice. And I have to agree with one thing he says that a lot of us, it is drilled into us from a child that property is the be all and end all. It is the American dream. It's the Australian dream. Picket fence, whatever. You need to save up your deposit, get a mortgage. In Australia alone with increased property prices, you need to save for the average couple, for the average house, 22 years or something like that to save a couple hundred thousand dollars. Do you believe that owning property is the be all and end all? Or do you think that people should now start to be maybe looking at renting, putting the money away

from the mortgage into an investing account? So Ramit and I are probably the most infamous people. We've both been covered extensively in the news about this. Both of us do not own property. I'm a multimillionaire who does not own property. I am recording this in an office in a townhouse that I rent because it's fucking expensive. It's so expensive. And I think that to his point and what I say a lot is like, you need to determine what actually you want, not like what society tells you you should want. Personal finance is personal. If you do want to become a homeowner, great. That's one thing. But two, can you actually afford it? And the average person can't. It's very inaccessible. And I think just rent, renting in general just has, again, more shame of like,

you're throwing money away. And I tell the story on my show about how I almost bought a condominium when I was 22 because my well-meaning parents were like, you're throwing money in the drain if you rent. And I backed out last minute. And let me tell you, it was the best financial decision I think I've ever made in my life. Like it was very, very important for me to figure out not only does the math work, but like, do I actually want this? Am I ready to be a homeowner? Am I ready to be in a, you know, one place for, you know, at least a couple of years, if not longer than that, am I handy enough to handle repairs, right? The total cost of a home is not just the mortgage, it's property taxes and insurance and, you know, renovating your kitchen. And when again,

a roof leak or something happens, you're responsible for that. So no, I think that in many cases, owning a home can be a great way to get a positive net worth. And if it's something you can do, great. But again, this is where the personal finance equation comes in. 20% your personal choices, 80% circumstances and the systemic issues. And at least in Seattle where I live, average home cost is nearly $900,000 for a starter home. Australia has some of the, especially where we are in Sydney has some of the most expensive real estate in the world like it's for what you're paying for but what about the adage then I mean everyone's heard the saying like rent money's dead money no I liken it to a hotel so I don't own the hotel but I pay money

to keep my stuff there and I'm just paying money to keep my stuff there for a while and I'm also paying for convenience right again uh my fire alarm goes off which is you know something that happened a couple months ago I don't have to deal with it I call my landlord and he has to figure that out. Also, it's financially more responsible for me right now and for the average person to put the money in the stock market than it is to take out a mortgage or to tie your money up in real estate. Because again, most people aren't buying their house in cash. So here's a question then, just say we're going to go off average prices, you buy a million dollar property, you're not living in it, you're getting $1,000 a week rent from it. Even if you own it, let's just say you

owned it outright, you're getting $1,000 a week rent from it. Would you say it is better to take that million dollar property, like sell it, have the million dollars and then put that into stocks or shares or invest. Here's where I can't give you an answer. I don't know. I don't know somebody's, you know, life there, what their financial goals are when they're trying to retire. I really try not to give like, you know, the specific advice in that regard. Cause I don't know you. I think what we want to be focused on more is again, it's not just about the number on paper. It's about like, what do you want to do with your life? And that is a financial decision that I wish more people discussed. Because again, I'm not saying this is you, but I just think in

general with personal finance, it's like, does the math work out? And I'm like, do you want to be a homeowner? Or do you want to sell this house? What do you actually want to do? And that's the whole goal for me is to get women to a point where actually money is not part of a financial decision, if that makes sense. It's not about what's the most financially responsible thing for me to do by a couple, by a percentage point. It's like, no, what do I actually want to do with my life? Okay. This might not be the smartest investment, but no, I really want to be a homeowner. And so I'm going to figure out how to do that. Or I don't want to own a home and I want to stay in Airbnbs and live out of a suitcase for two years. Okay. How do we get you to a financial point where you

can do that? So I think, again, it all comes down to, yes, does the math work, but really like, what do you want to do and what is accessible to you? Tori, I'd love to talk to you a little bit around like boundaries with money. And the first place of that is being able to talk about it. because if you can't talk about it, you can't set boundaries, especially when it comes to relationships, but also with our friends, you know, when it comes to things like paying for more or splitting bills or all this sort of shit that we all have to navigate in life. Firstly, what is your thoughts on a prenup when it comes to relationships? Get one. Absolutely get one. Prenups, again, common misconception. Prenups are for women in their

20s who are marrying Hugh Hefner types in their 70s. Prenups are for one person making a lot more money than the other person. Prenups are none of those things. Prenups are you having a realistic conversation about finances with your partner, which is what you should be doing anyway, and making sure that you are protecting yourselves and each other. And I find that because you've had the prenup conversation and because a lot of people end up executing a prenup, it prevents you from needing the prenup because you've had the transparency, you've had conversation you know what's coming at least in the united states i don't know about australia and about counties and how those work but our provinces but for us every single state in the

united states if you get married you have a prenup it's just what's been given to you by the state it's how the state's telling you we're going to divide the money so i live in washington state if i were to get married and there's no agreement that you know my partner and i end up signing automatically you're splitting 50-50. No contest, no discussion. So I'm not thrilled with the government being in my business and thrilled with the government deciding what my financial life is going to be and my partner's financial life is going to be. So part of the prenup is you getting to choose or otherwise the government might choose for you. I will say too, my partner and I have been together for two years and we had, I think the word prenup came up two months in. I'm very

open that like, this is what's going to happen. And I think that just money in general, again, feels so scary and it feels so personal. And I think having those conversations does a lot of good for your relationship, even if you never actually like sign the document. Speaking of relationships, Tori, what is your advice for a relationship, a couple, they're living together, engaged, getting married, whatever. How do you recommend people split their finances in a relationship? Yeah. I think again, personal finances is personal. It depends on the relationship. However, I do have a couple hard and fast rules. One of them is like an emergency fund first. The other one that I live and die by is that you always need some of your own money.

I never, ever want you completely combining your finances with your partner. And you're going, but I love him or her. I trust them. That means that we don't love each other if we're not willing to combine our finances. No, it means that you are in a relationship because we want to be there, not because you have to be there because you can't afford to leave. We need you to have some of your own money, both in case things turn sour and you want to get out, but also because I want you to have hobbies that don't need your partner's approval before you go spend money. And I want you to be able to have flexibility to buy them gifts and not have them know. Like, I think it's really, really important for your own agency, for the health of your relationship to have some separate

money. But then what happens if one person earns significantly more? Do you suggest that there is like an equal percentage of pay? So one person puts more into the combined fund or is it still just like 500 each? Yeah. I think that again, depends on you. But one of the conversations again that I had very early with my partner, we don't live together yet, but he actually was very sweet and came to me early in our relationship and was like, I know I shouldn't feel this way, but I sometimes feel like I should be buying more things because I out earn him and out earn pretty much every man that I'm ever going to talk to. So one of the things I told him is, especially when it comes to our finances, I'm looking for equity in our relationship, not equality. Because it

doesn't make sense for, you know, a $3,000 a month rent to say, hey, I make substantially more than you, but we're going to split this 50-50. And you can do this with friends, you can do this with your partner, you can do this with, you know, anybody where there's an income disparity is you can say, okay, maybe it's 60-40, 70-30, 80-20, whatever that turns out to be. I think that that's a better way of splitting it that feels more equitable rather than just, no, I make, you know, substantially more than you, but we're going to split everything in half. I also think having, you know, and I know it comes back to this like ongoing conversation, whether it be with your friends or with your partners, but the more that you're able to talk

about money and the more that you're able to be transparent about it, the easier it is to say the things that don't work for you. And I think that a lot of people have been in relationships. I myself have been in a relationship where my partner earned so much more money than I did substantially more we lived in a really nice place but us paying the rent 50 50 down the middle meant that he was always financially okay and I would get to the end of the week and be having cans of tuna and crackers you know and he didn't understand that that wasn't a 50 50 but also I'd never had the conversation with him in that sort of three-year relationship until the last six months around why the finances weren't working for me. So it also made it then harder

to have it because it was such a foreign conversation for us. Yeah. And I think too, there's an element of like, it feels uncomfortable to talk about money. Like people tell me that all the time. Like, I don't want to talk about money because it's scary or this person's going to hate me or like, I just don't know how to bring it up. Okay. Let's say you don't bring it up to your point. Then what happens? You get resentful. You get, you know, intimidated, you feel shame And it causes problems later on that are actually way more difficult to deal with. I know we were going to talk about like bachelorette parties, but that's the perfect example of this where it's like, if you're not level setting, like what is my financial commitment

to go on this weekend trip? Or what is my financial commitment to get a dress, get a shoe, you know, whatever that looks like, what's going to happen is you're going to be on a beach on day two and they're going to be like, we rented a catamaran and that's going to come out of nowhere. and you're not going to feel like you can assert yourself and say, actually, I can't afford that. So I think that talking about money is uncomfortable, but it gets more comfortable the more you do it. It's like a muscle. It doesn't mean that the muscle isn't a little bit sore every time you do it, but you're able to lift more every single time you lift. So I think that

it's so important to start doing this sooner rather than later, because it's a lot messier later. A big question we get here at Life Uncut, it flows into the friendship groups. there's always somebody that earns more in the group you go out to dinner is it then expected that that person that earns more that everyone knows earns more pays more for the dinner do they they're like oh I've got this one like because everyone in the group knows they earn more and whilst we're sitting in this conversation if somebody goes to the dinner that didn't drink and just had the salad because they're saving money then the bill comes at the end and everyone had alcohol and they say okay we'll just split it even everyone happy with that like so where

do you set the boundary if you are the higher income earner? Conversely, if you are the person that is not earning as much? Yeah. So let's take the latter first because I think that one's easier to answer. If you are the sober person and everybody's ordered three drinks, this is when you go, hey, I'm just going to pay for what I ordered. That's just it. Hey, I'm going to pay for what I ordered. Or I remember doing this. It was actually my prom, my senior prom. And we went out to dinner and I could only afford an appetizer for dinner. I bought my $15, I don't know, quesadilla or something. And a bunch of people ordered steak. And my friend, well-meaning, was like, actually, I have gift cards. Are we OK if we just split it evenly? And I didn't know what to do

because I was 17. But I was like, this is more money than I've ever seen. And that still haunts me clearly. So I think you just set your boundary. Like, hey, I'm just going to pay for what I ordered. And anybody who is mad about that, I'm sorry, get new friends. The former, I think that if you are the higher income earner, and this typically tends to be myself and my own lived experience. I love my friends. I personally am putting down my credit card and I will fight them for the bill. But that's something that I feel comfortable doing. Otherwise, I think that there is like a give and take of maybe I'm paying for two dinners to their one. Or I think it's a lot about like, what activity you introduce as well. If I'm like, hey, I want to go to a Michelin star

restaurant. For me and my friends, we've talked about enough that like, if I'm introducing something that I know this person might not be able to pay for, I'm covering it or I'm covering a bigger part of it. This happens with my friends that I go on trips with every year. We were actually in Sydney and I wanted to stay in this really nice hotel. And she was like, that sounds great. I can afford that. So I can either do a night and you pay for three or we can stay somewhere else. And so I think that that's the thing is you assert your boundaries and you provide other options, right? Like I can't afford that, but how about this? Oh, I can't afford to go out to dinner there, but I would love to get happy hour with you or come over and I'll cook, right?

I think that that's how you can start to set your boundaries in a way that feels authentic to you while also not feeling like you're going to fuck your friendship up. Do you think couples should know what each other earns? Do you think there should be financial, complete financial transparency? Yes. It depends on where you're at in the relationship. I think if you've been on two dates, no. I'm in the unique position where you have a general idea of my net worth when you Google me, which I think is very interesting and fun. Mine does that too, but mine's $270 million. And I'm like, I just hope no one actually thinks that that's real. Oh, yeah. Mine isn't entirely accurate either. But because I'm a financial expert and I say

I'm a multimillionaire, that's a rough estimate. I think that, yeah, it's really important to talk about money. I think just on the thread of talking about how much you make, talking about your debt, I think that's really important. Because again, there's a lot of shame and frustration around debt. And so people hide it from their partners because they feel so ashamed of it. Something really important to bring up, especially as you're getting more serious when you're starting to go on trips together or you're starting to have the conversations about moving in together. Everything also needs to be in writing. So if you're going to move in with somebody you are not legally partnered to, you need to have a contract drawn up. It can just be Microsoft Word and you both

sign it, but it needs to outline who's on the lease, what the financial responsibility is, who's paying for the internet and the electricity? Is it 50-50? Is it 70-30? You need to really know all of those things. And again, you're thinking, but my partner would never be mean to me or nothing would ever happen. Let's hope not. But unfortunately, I get dozens of emails a week from women in that exact position where they didn't think it would happen to them. And it does. So outline it, have it in writing, protect yourself. I totally understand that it's not a romantic thing to have to do. It kind of almost feels like it's taking the romance out of the excitement of those things. I feel like it's very sexy, but maybe I turned you on to it.

You're like, yes, sign the dotted finance line. No, but here's the deal. I think, you know, just like you talk about what you like in bed or, you know, what your goals and dreams are for your life that should be exciting with the right person like my intimacy with this other person and if they're willing to also be intimate that's hot like if I am willing to be vulnerable and this other person matches me my vulnerability about any topic I feel like I can trust them I feel like we're building a healthy relationship and that actually feels really good for me and so it's not going to be easy but it's going to get easier yeah I genuinely couldn't agree with you more and I think honestly sometimes we are fearful to ask questions but the reason why we're fearful to ask

the question is because you're fearful of the answer you're fearful that the answer is not going to match up with yours but you're going to put yourself into so much of a worse situation if you don't ask the question because you're scared the answer won't be the answer you want to hear and then you get two years down the track and guess what the answer is not what you wanted to hear and now you're living it I think there is something really solidifying and it makes you feel much more like you're a team when both of you can show up and talk about these things as though you're doing it together and you're working in the same direction. I did see on your Instagram, it was just your 30th birthday.

Happy birthday from here at Life Uncut. I did see you talking about some advice and like your biggest lessons that you learned through your 20s. If you're going to leave us with probably two of your biggest lessons, what are they? Oh, I just want to say dump him, but that's not great. He might be great, but still dump him. If you're thinking about it, do it. Oh, okay.

First one, confidence is a self-worth issue. Nobody talks about it like that. A lot of the number one question I get, which is so sweet, that isn't related to finances is like, how are you so confident? And it's because I believe myself 100% worthy. I believe myself worthy of love and opportunity and money and good things and a good career and great experiences. And I think everything starts to change when you believe yourself worthy of all of those things. So that's the first thing. Second is that I think I'm really good at holding space for every single version of me, of who I was. I don't judge past me, even though she made some decisions I would not make, staying with a particular partner for too long or, you know, being intimidated by somebody she shouldn't have been intimidated by and making bad decisions just because she didn't know any better. Like, I don't shame her. I hold her with so much grace and love. And I think that's really important when, you know, we're trying to grow as people and develop. I don't want to ever feel like I am not giving myself all of the love and the care that I deserve, whether that was an eight-year-old me or 18-year-old me or eventually 45-year-old me. And I think you just learn from your experiences. And you acknowledge that, hey, I would have done that differently now. But sometimes I had to make a mistake in order to know I would do it differently. So I think those are two big things I'm taking into my 30s. And then I'll leave you with my goal for my 30s, which is to be okay being misunderstood. Oh, that's a good one. Because let's be real. 90% of people misunderstand us, right? my online presence it's my goal for my relationships and my friendships I don't

need to justify it I don't need to explain and that's going to be really hard but it's going to be a fun challenge Tori I feel so excited for you because if there's one thing that as someone who's coming to the end of my 30s I look back on and my 30s have been the the best decade of my life that's what everybody's told me they are the 20s are like the years where you're not really sure you think you know but you really don't know and then you get into your 30s And you're like, oh, fuck, this is who I am. And I'm okay with who I am. And for a lot of people, not for everyone,

but I know it's something I've experienced, there's so much confidence and self-worth that comes from that. And you're already there. So I can't wait to see where you're at when you're at the point where you're turning 40. Thank you. I'm really excited too. If you guys want more, Tori's podcast and book,

The Financial Feminist, I've followed it a long time. I absolutely love it and I've learned a lot. You can get it anywhere you can get your books, anywhere you can get your podcast. Can't recommend it enough. Tori, thank you for giving us your time. Try and say that five times fast. Tori, thanks for giving us your time today.

Thank you so much. I appreciate you having me.