Life Uncut - Til Death Do Us Part - Nothing To Fear About Death. Uncut with Hospice Nurse Julie

Episode Date: July 16, 2024

Hey Lifers, Conversations about the end of our lives and the end of the lives of the people we love are hard. Sometimes they’re so hard that we completely avoid them and we can put ourselves in situations where we don’t know how to manage the last part of a loved one’s life. With that being said you might assume that today’s conversation would be a bit of a difficult listen, but hospice nurse Julie somehow makes it light, interesting and even humorous!Hospice Nurse Julie aka Julie McFadden started educating people about death on tiktok and has grown to have over 3 million followers.    In today’s chat we speak about: Julie’s nursing life showing her that prolonging life wasn’t always the best option Processing and accepting the idea of letting someone go Death bed phenomenon like the rally & visioning Voluntary euthanasia. How it works and what it is Some of Julie’s experiences witnessing people’s last breath The most common thing people regret What to expect from a loved one’s death Julie has a brand new book out called Nothing to FearYou can find Julie on TiktokAnd Instagram You can watch us on Youtube Find us on Instagram Join us on tiktok Or join the Facebook Discussion Group Tell your mum, tell your dad, tell your dog, tell your friend and share the love because WE LOVE LOVE! xxSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Life Uncut acknowledges the traditional custodians of country whose lands were never ceded. We pay our respects to their elders past and present. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. This episode was recorded on Cammeraygal land. Hi guys and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Laura. I'm Brittany. Today's conversation is a really big one and it's something that every single person is going to experience at some point in their life but it's the conversation that we all avoid. We're talking about death, we're also talking about palliative care, we're talking about end-of-life care and

the reason for that is because death seems to be the big thing. We talk about everything on this podcast but in society it is the one conversation that makes so many of us uncomfortable to speak about for good reason, but it's also the one thing that none of us are going to be able to avoid. It is going to happen to every single person listening to this. But I think the bigger and harder part isn't necessarily dealing with our own realities around our mortality. It's around the fact that the people that we love more than anyone in the world are also at some point going to die. And today we have an incredible woman joining us. Her name is Julie McFadden. If you've seen her on TikTok, she is hospice nurse Julie. She's

got over 3 million followers and this is a conversation that she has daily. She is the author of an incredible book called Nothing to Fear and it is all about demystifying death to live more fully. This is something that feels incredibly close to home to me at the moment and that is because as you guys all know from listening to yesterday's episode my nana passed away last week but also my stepdad is currently going through palliative care and I've spoken about that a little bit on the show already. And when we actually did this episode with Hospice Nurse Julie, it was before we went on holidays. So listening back to this conversation now, retrospectively, after going through the passing of a loved one, I honestly, I cannot tell you how

valuable it was that we had had this conversation prior. It allowed me to really treasure some of those moments with my nan before she passed away in a way that I don't think I would have fully appreciated them if I hadn't spoken to her about it. She has such a beautiful perspective on death. She has a beautiful perspective on the final moments around not necessarily needing to fear something that I think so many of us do have fear around it. And also just a sense of letting go. I loved this conversation with Julie and I hope that so many of you find comfort in it and get something out of it. Julie, welcome to the podcast. Hello. I'm so honored. I can't wait to talk to you guys. Julie, we're really looking forward to today's chat and it is going to get a

little bit more serious. But before we do that, we do an accidentally unfiltered and embarrassing story with every guest and we would love to hear yours. Oh my God. When you guys first asked me this, just so everyone knows, I'm really open about this. I am eight years sober. So I had a whole life I got sober at 33 so prior to getting sober at 33 I have so many embarrassing things sober and not sober that I could go into but I think because Rebel Wilson said something about poop right she said in someone's lawn in the daylight in Hollywood yes in Hollywood okay so I have you can't be worse I don't know if it's worse or not but this is so graphic but I think it's hilarious okay so i poop like i have like big poops my dad always jokes about how i should

have a breaking stick when i go to the bathroom like to break up the poop how does your dad know how big your poos are julie because we talk about it because i used to plug the toilet all the time as a kid yes so with that being said i would never i became like insecure about it because i wouldn't want to like go somewhere and like poop and plug the toilet and whatever right and one time i couldn't help it there's just times you couldn't help it and it was at a guy's house who i barely knew and i pooed in his toilet and it wouldn't go down how big are we talking julie big coke can oh so like so not just long but thick it's yeah i can't flush that it's not even about long it's the thickness and like you need to like eat more fiber like it's too hard like all the

things. Like the poop is just wrong. But I called my best friend in the bathroom. I was like, oh my God, I'm at so-and-so's house. I cannot get the poop down. I think I'm going to take it out of the toilet. No, you didn't do that. No, of course you did. That's what you have to do. You have to do. This is literally an urban legend, but you have lived the urban legend. I took it out of the toilet. And honestly, because it was so many years ago, I can't remember if I like threw it out the window like just took it and threw out the window or if i actually was like be right back and like went out like somehow got outside and just put it outside but how would you have carried it outside that's what i mean i don't fully remember because my whole there's a part of

my life that's like kind of grayed out like browned out instead of blacked out pooed out yeah so i know i did it because my friend and i always talk about this and she'll always be like remember that time you called me I can't even remember who the guy was but I know that I pooped in someone's toilet and I removed the poop with tissue and I threw that throughout the window or somehow got it outside imagine Julie imagine being a man who is so insignificant that you remember a shit over him that's why I had to say the same thing I was like that's the only thing you remember of that night speaks volumes about that poor guy that poor guy that poor guy and like did he know like sometimes I felt like I was being really sneaky and like maybe I wasn't like maybe he really was

like maybe I've never heard from him because he knew I did it well maybe because you threw out the window and a giant poop landed on his car he found it in the garden he's like that is suspiciously close to the window oh that's so gross that's so gross and not to be even worse but I have like maybe not many stories like that but kind of Julie we will let you off the hook because as much as that is hugely embarrassing the work that you do is incredible and it takes a very special person with poops aside it takes a very special person to do and to be in the kind of work that you do and I think that for anybody who has a family member who is going through or who has been through palliative care there is a real understanding around the absolute kindness and

empathy that a human must have to work in that sort of I don't want to call it an industry but to work in palliative care, to work in end-of-life care. Can you tell us a little bit around why you got into this in the first place? Yeah, so I speak about this a lot on my channel and in my book about what drove me into hospice and then into just educating in general. And most of the reason is because I was an ICU nurse, intensive care unit nurse, for many years before I was a hospice nurse where we were doing basically the opposite. We were trying to keep people alive, basically at all costs, I felt like. At first, it felt right. And there are some times when that is amazing. And then the longer I was an ICU nurse, the longer I was like, oof, we are truly doing people a

disservice by keeping them alive at all costs and not having end of life conversations. And that's what eventually moved me into becoming a hospice and palliative care nurse. It took a long time, But but I eventually got there. I was in the ICU for eight years. And after two years, I was like done, but I still stayed for another six. And the most surprising thing to me when I first became a hospice nurse that first year was seeing how little we had to do to help people die, that our bodies were built to do it. And there were so many built in mechanisms biologically, to help us do that. Like watching someone die in the ICU versus watching someone die in hospice is like night and day to me because we would allow the natural processes to take over an auspice which usually

led to a more peaceful death even though it's still people still look different when they're dying which is a whole nother thing we could get into but it's more peaceful it's so hard because even as you say this and i i'm i'm gonna get upset as i do on every episode at the moment it's really hard to grapple when you're the person who so deep so desperately wants that person to stay alive because you want them to enjoy more time with your family more time with their grandchildren it's really hard to to process this idea of letting someone go letting someone die especially when you think you have the opportunity to keep them alive a little bit longer because it maybe in some ways it comes from like a a selfish place of wanting just more time with them even if

that time is compromised how do you think we get to a place as a society as people where we can be more accepting of end of life and be more prepared for it I guess yeah I think by what you're doing number one so I think I don't necessarily believe that we have to have like a death positive like we don't have to feel like positive about what's happening yeah we can be like I've had people who are dying young people with young children like look me in the eye and say like I'm so pissed that I'm dying I'm angry I'm angry I don't want to die I'm afraid and they still of course are still going to, right? But there's something about speaking that truth that just releases it just a little bit, even for that moment. So even you coming on here and being

like, I'm upset, or I'm going to get upset, or I want it to be longer, I think personally will still help you and help your family in the long run, because at least you're talking about it. At least you're saying these things. Okay, so that's one. And unfortunately, there is no alternative like to me there isn't an alternative like your stepdad will die kind of no matter what even if you let's just say even if you took all the things like no we're not going to allow it to happen we're not going to let it happen it still will because no one lives forever like not just because of him but generally speaking no one will yeah so since we know that since we know that no one lives forever. How can we be here now and accept what is in the moment we're in

with him now? Versus this fighting of like, not yet, not yet, not yet. I mean, you're human, so it's going to go up and down. I'm sure you've already experienced moments of feeling the release of maybe not letting go, but this release of being with him presently. And then it goes to angry, and then it goes to sad, and then it goes to detaching. That's all normal and painful. Yeah. And I would say that people have different experiences of it because like grappling with the idea that your 94 year old grandfather is going to pass away is very, very different to grappling with the idea that your child is going to pass away. You know, there is a hugely varied spectrum of how people are going to be able to process death. And some

of it feels so much less justifiable. Also, I want you to know that only because this is personally happening to you right now. So I want you to be super open with me about like, if I'm saying something that you are like, yeah, but that hasn't been my experience. This is how it has been for me. I would love for you to do that so that I can help answer questions if you do have some, just so that. And two, I think education about death and dying will help make things easier and less scary, but not less sad. Yeah. It's not going to make it less sad. It's still hard and sad. You're still losing someone you deeply, deeply love. Because we know what's happening, is there a way where we can learn as much as we can so in the moments when it is

happening or the moments it takes to happen, you don't have tons of fear. You'll still be sad, but maybe not tons of fear around it. That's my hope for you and for anyone who's going through this is that the fear can be at least somewhat subsided so you can be present even in your sadness. Does that make sense? Yeah, it really does. Julie, you speak about death anxiety and I think it's something a lot of people probably grapple with is a fear of death. I myself can't work out if I'm scared of death as a whole or of dying young or of my family dying. I can't work out what I am. I don't think I'm scared of dying when the time comes, but I think I'm scared if it comes too soon. And I don't know if that makes any sense. Someone that helps people pass away

constantly and he's always surrounded by it. Are you scared of death? I'm still going to have a human experience. So if I get diagnosed with something terminal tomorrow, or something drastically changes in my life because of my health, or if it wasn't an accident, something like that, I will still have like anger and sadness and fear. Like I'll still have all the rollercoaster of emotions intermittently. And generally speaking, I am not afraid of death. And that is truly because of what I've seen. Like the more I see death, the less and less I'm afraid of it. One, because of biology and like truly watching it and seeing how our bodies seem to be built to do it. And because of things I've experienced as a hospice nurse that are unexplainable

and hard, I'm happy to talk about it, but it is hard to like put words to it. But it feels like, like I've watched so many people take their last breath. And because I don't have tons of grief involved. It's not my mom. It's not my dad, at least not yet. It's like I can have a different view of it. And whenever I experienced watching someone give birth, I always liken it to this, because when I've seen babies being born, I get this feeling, I think most people do, where you're kind of like, whoa, like it's a baby. It's, you know, I've never had my own baby, but I've just seen people have babies. And even that, I'm like, where'd this baby come from? Like, Hi, baby. Oh, my gosh. And that is oddly the same feeling I get when I watch someone die.

It's not like that excited feeling, but it's like that same like, like something expands. Yeah. And it feels beautiful. It feels sacred. It feels like they're going home. And I really believe like ever since I've been little, and this is just my belief, so it doesn't matter but ever since I've been little I've always felt homesick for a place that I can't remember wow and I feel like when I die I'm going to go to that place yeah and I think everyone does that's very beautiful talk talk me through it really is I would love you to talk a little bit about you say that you are able to witness it from you know the experience of not being traumatized by the grief so you can see and experience what death is firsthand. The way that

you describe it is very beautiful, but also from a biological sense, what is it that happens? What is it that seems to be like the common pattern, I guess, of how people prepare themselves for that part of what death looks like? Yeah, so almost everyone will, around six months before death, almost everyone becomes a little more quiet, a little more like introspective. I think because their psyche is preparing, their body is preparing. Biologically, our bodies will turn off the hunger and thirst mechanism in our brain because the body almost knows before we do that we're preparing to die. So almost everybody dying, if we know they're dying from something terminal, will start being less hungry and less thirsty. And almost everyone will start sleeping more. And they really start

sleeping more because our calcium levels rise. And calcium, high calcium levels make you sleepy. So our body, so just generally speaking, now there are some diseases that cause a lot of symptoms which need to be managed, which is a whole nother story. But just generally speaking, if a body is like, hey, I can tell my body is, something's wrong and I'm preparing to die, the person will be more sleepy and eat and drink less. And the more you kind of allow that to naturally happen, and that's hard to do, especially if you're young and have children. And so it's not always easy to not worry about that. But if you can, if you don't worry about that and just sort of think like, well, I'm going to listen to my body and sleep when I want to

sleep and only eat when I want to eat. And maybe that's never when people do that. I have seen the wonders of the body. And even though they still die, it's very peaceful. And some people need no medication. Not that I'm against medication, believe me. I'm all for the kitchen sink if you need it. But like, I've just seen it so many times where people have just slowly and naturally died. And I've seen it enough that it's like, wow, the body really biologically helps us die. And during the actively dying phase, which is the last phase of life, which scares most people because people look very different during that time. They're unconscious, they have changes in breathing, changes in skin color. All of these things that are happening during that time are

biological responses, and the body helping itself die. Metabolically, things change. Just like I like to liken it to labor, but labor is associated with pain. It's hard. But like crazy things are happening during birth, where like the woman's body is just doing stuff to have a baby and the baby survives most of the time right so it's like that ish except i would say like people think dying is painful diseases you die from can be painful but the death itself is not it does not hurt i've heard and i don't know if this is like an urban legend or a bit of a myth but i've heard multiple times that when people do die that it can be almost euphoric and visionary like a lot of different things can be happening. And I've heard it a lot with drowning. Like a lot of people

say, you know, people have drowned before and been brought back, for example. And I'm just using this as an example. But people have said in the moment of death, before they were brought back, they've never felt more peaceful in their life. Is that what you're saying you believe or has been proven that a lot of death is like in that final moment when you just said it's very peaceful, they close their eyes, they take their last breath? Is there any proof behind that? I think it has been proven. I don't think we know why. So I think we have proved it in the sense of being in health care and watching hundreds of people do it and kind of knowing the opposite of what that is. Like we can tell people always ask, well, how do you know they're OK? And it's like, well, you know, because when you're a trained professional and the body is like a like a dying body is like a baby. A baby can't verbally say like, I'm hungry, I'm wet, but it'll cry and moan and roll around and be fussy if it's not okay. A person dying will do the same thing. So if they're not doing that, I guess we would say they must be okay. And I think enough people have kind of, quote unquote, come back from things where they

shouldn't have come back from to say, whether or not like they actually went somewhere or not, either way, something is happening to comfort them. That's the thing is like, I have no agenda to make someone believe that there's like an afterlife or that something else happens. But I do feel like we have enough evidence to show that we might not be able to explain why it happens, but it does happen. something happens biologically maybe to make us feel comforted to like if you think about when you say you really got like if someone broke an arm eventually it hurts but usually that first

initial shock your body does something to protect you so you do not feel what is happening and i think that that's kind of like what death is like too i think we have a bunch of mechanisms built into biologically help us and comfort us what about the idea and i'm not sure if there is a name for it I'm sure there is but how a lot of people when they're approaching death can have a lot of mental clarity just prior to or within you know moments before whether that's clarity around recollecting their past or feeling connected to people who have already passed away what has been your experience with those moments yeah so that's one of the main things I started educating about when I first started hospice nurse Julie and it's in my book I have

a whole chapter chapter six it's my longest chapter because there's so much to talk about I call it deathbed phenomena. So it's just things that happen. And again, like we don't know why. So as healthcare professionals, these things that we call deathbed phenomena are mysteries. We don't know why that happened. We just know that they do and they do a lot. So we have to educate about it. The number one thing that happens the most is something called terminal lucidity, which is what you're talking about. So that happens in one in three patients, one in every three. That's insane, where people have, they call it the burst of energy, the rally, where someone looks like they're getting very close to death. And then suddenly, boom, they have a really good day,

they wake up, they're clear, they might say they're hungry, they might eat a cheeseburger, get up and walk. Everyone's rally is kind of different. But the thing with the rally is that they die shortly after. So you can't kind of have the rally for a long period of time. That's not the rally. I think often people can be lulled into a false sense that, oh my God, they're going to get better. The same thing happened with my grandfather. He was in hospital. We knew he was going to pass away. He had no kidney function left. Like he couldn't possibly have lived. And we all came down to say our goodbyes. And then he was so good. Like the next day he woke up, he was sitting up in bed. He was having a full conversation with us after being basically

in a, almost in a coma. And then the next day he passed away and it was like, but he was so good yesterday like how you know yeah that is it that is terminal lucidity do they know why it happens julie no they don't know it's just one of these phenomena i guess that's why they call it a phenomenon right yeah people will always say because of those that video always goes viral if i post it and there's always people commenting being like it's dmt like different things that they think they know but generally speaking there's theories but we don't really know and the second one that happens the most is visioning that i always like to educate about because it's so clear and I wouldn't have believed it myself unless I've witnessed it so many times.

Visioning is when people start seeing dead relatives, dead loved ones, pets that have died. And the cool thing about visioning to me that most people don't know is that it usually happens a few weeks before death. So if someone comes to me as a hospice nurse and says that they're seeing their dead parents, kind of concerned because they're usually, the person seeing them is usually alert and oriented enough to know that this is strange, right? They're usually comforted, but they're still like, what's happening with me? You know, what's going on? That can kind of trigger you as a hospice nurse to know that that person's likely going to die within, I'd say, a few weeks. That's what usually happens. And it's always comforting. They're mostly clear-headed.

So they're not, people think it's like at the last minute they're seeing these things. No, it's usually a few weeks and they're clear headed and they're kind of like last night my dad came to me he said everything was going to be okay he'd come to get me a little bit later and I feel better now like like that like that you're like what it's but over and over and over and over again yeah you know it just happens do you think it's just the body's way of maybe subconsciously knowing like maybe the person doesn't consciously know but the body subconsciously knows that this is happening and it's like preparing them for a level of comfort and it's a beautiful experience I imagine and I imagine if it's your end of life that's what you want to be doing you want to be

seeing all the people that mean the most to you that have gone on to the afterlife yeah I mean I always try to I try to stay on like uh the thin line of like I never want to be like I believe that they really are seeing their dead relatives I'd like to be on the line of like who knows like I'm not here to tell you why it's happening yeah I'm just here to tell you that it does happen and you guys can interpret it however you want you know it could be something and guess what if our body biologically does that to make us more comfortable that's amazing amazing that's amazing if they really are seeing their dead relatives that's amazing like i think either way that's amazing julie i want to talk to you about something we've talked about on the podcast before

and it's definitely a very serious issue but something that is not overly prevalent here and available in Australia. And that is voluntary euthanasia. We spoke with a friend of mine who unfortunately will pass away and she has chosen to end her life when the time comes. But to do that from Australia, she's had to book pre-booking to, I believe it's Finland. Like it's, it's a country that she had to find that would allow her to do it. She's literally like booked a space and booked the medication. And when the time comes, she'll have to travel there early enough and she'll be quite young, unfortunately. Listening to her story about how hard it's going to be for her to end her life when it comes was really horrific. And I know that you are in the state of California

where you do have quite loose euthanasia laws. Since you've been around it so much, and I've watched a lot of your videos talking about you being there when people have taken the end of life medication, what are your thoughts around involuntary euthanasia now? Because it's such a hot topic and such a fierce debate with a lot of people and I personally think for example if we have a dog that is unwell and is in pain we say the animal's in pain the kind thing to do is to put it down but all of a sudden when we're talking about humans and people we love who don't have an outcome other than death and they are in horrific pain themselves so many countries Australia included we make them fight we make them stay till the end so I'd love to know what your thoughts are

now, seeing as though you're around it all day, every day. I think it's strange when other people try to tell other people what they can do with their bodies. That's weird to me. Like, I don't know that when you were like, this is such a hot debate, right? Like I get it. Cause every time I post those videos, it's a hot debate in my comments. You know, that's the only time people are consistently telling me I'm going to hell for murder, which is so wild to me because I truly think, even if you don't believe in it, right? Even if you believe that the God you believe in would send you to hell if you did this and the person who's doing it, but that's what your belief is. You believe that. So you don't take the medication if you don't want to. Why do you have

to not allow someone else to? Because someone else believes something different. So I've never understood people who want to have a say in other people's rights. So I'm all for it. If you couldn't tell, I'm all for it. It's not federally allowed. So only certain states can do it. And California is one of those states and I'm in California. And we don't ever make any of our nurses or doctors be a part of the program if they don't want to be a part of it. Because again, it's a heated debate and not everyone believes in it. And I guess I feel like even if I didn't believe in it, I still wouldn't put my beliefs on other people. I would still allow everyone else to just do what they wanted. Julie, what's been your experience of euthanasia, being in the room of a natural

occurring death and being in the room with people who have chosen the point of which they want to end their life? How is it different? And what is your experience of it? The way it's different is it's faster. So one is faster. I can't be a part of it, by the way. So I can be in the room, but I can't like touch the medication. I can't mix the medication. I can't do anything except for like be there and help them like as far as witnessing it. Yeah, right. And my experience is it's just like actively dying. So I was talking to you about the actively dying phase, which is the last phase of life. This person experiences that still, but it's quicker. So they'll drink the drink. And which one thing that surprised me is that like in five to seven minutes,

they will be unconscious like not just sleeping like like fully fully unconscious and then it usually takes about 45 minutes depending on the person to actively die so go through those actively dying phases which is not uncomfortable so the difference is it's faster and i will say emotionally for me just from being the one who's witnessing it uh there there is something about it that feels harder to me so like whenever i do witness it i'm always very like solemn and contemplative afterwards. I might like take a couple of days off of work afterwards because it is heavy because that person, I just think one, I don't know if the word's like courageous, like to watch someone have to drink this medicine. So they die. The fact that they want to,

there's just something profound about it. Profound enough that it makes me kind of be like, whoa, what is life? And like one second they're alive and the next second they're not. And that the line between the two is so thin and they were so vibrant a second ago and now they're dead it just i'm okay with it but still wild to witness julie i'd love you to just tell everyone listening the story that i heard you tell about you witnessing one of these euthanasias with a woman that had lost her husband and her family was there and i'd love you to just tell that again, from your perspective. So I had done the hospice admission for this family and this woman was elderly, upper nineties. She was just over it. She felt like she was super old and she had

old elderly children. They were like in their upper seventies, early eighties, like they were all just kind of like, and she was just over it. She was like, you know, I retired early at 60 thinking I was going to die soon. I had 20 years with my husband and we traveled, we did everything we wanted to do. And then I basically lived like another 20 years after that. She's like, I'm over this. I'm done. She's like not in the late 90s. She was done. And she started talking about how she didn't want to go through like being incontinent and having her kids have to take care of her because they were elderly too. So she started asking me about the end of life medication. And we provide that. Not on hospice, but the hospital I work for does. So I just gave

them the information and how to look into it because like we can't really do it on hospice. they have to go out and get it on their own because the hospice is federally funded. And this is not a federal law. So anyway, weeks later, I happened to be working on call and they called me being like, my office called me being like, Hey, this person wants to take the end of life medicine. Could you be there to help them and just sort of witness it for them? And if they need anything, blah, blah, blah. And I remember them. I'm like, Oh my God, of course. Yes. I love this lady. Like I will be there. And I show up and this lady is happier than ever. So excited to die. I'm not kidding you. I'm not kidding. Excited to die. Like laughing, having a good time,

like ready to go. And her kids were kind of like pissed that she's so happy. And she goes to bed, they get the wedding album and she's like looking at all of her wedding pictures. The kids mixed up the drink for her, which is like, she could have done it herself, but whatever. I'm just letting them do whatever they want to do. I'm just sort of making sure everything's okay and i've never seen someone not a second thought every other person i've ever watched has been a kind of like we're like okay here it goes like we love you this lady like grabbed it from her kid and just drank and just drank it i guess we're doing this she was ready and what's funny is normally like i said normally people drink it and then fall

asleep pretty quickly but then their body doesn't die for another 45 minutes to an hour not her she drank it five minutes later dead wow just so written done she was done and her her kids really were kind of like laughing about it because like there was nothing else to do except for that because it was almost comical how she was so ready you also in that moment you can be sad for yourself because you're going to miss that person, but you can't be sad for them if they don't want to be here. Like, and also I think it's like we said, there's a very big difference between some, a tragedy, someone losing their life very young and someone who has lived their life and they have seen everybody else that they love die before them. They've lost their friends.

They've lost their husband. They've lost their sisters, their brothers, their own parents. And they know that there's no more life ahead except basically decaying. I have like a real understanding as to why someone would get to that point and go okay I am absolutely done now yeah this is why I'm so emotional about that story because like I just think I really am because I just think like this person has lived all the life they want and 20 years without your soulmate like I just think if a human makes that decision at that age to be like I really really want to go like please help me and when we say nah you gotta stay here like we're gonna we're gonna put you through it. We're going to make you suffer. I don't understand it. Julia, do you think in your

experience and in all the families that you've witnessed that have gone through death and the varying stages towards it, do you think that overarchingly death is just such a, I mean, considering how common it is that it's going to happen to everyone, it's something that we so, so deeply try and avoid conversations around? Yeah, I feel like generally speaking worldwide, something has happened in the past, you know, century where we've really, because we've made such great advances and living, which is amazing. We've like gone backwards in this idea of like, that we're all going to die. I feel like it was a little more in our faces before people died more often, they died in the homes, we had funerals and wakes in homes. And that just has not happened

recently. And I think because of that, it's gotten more and more unspoken. Yeah. And I just we need to change it. I can't say it more. Like we need to change the way we look at death and dying. And what I mean by that is just realizing that contemplating our own mortality is not something that's like morose. It's something that can truly help us live better because there's freedom and understanding that I will die someday. Like to me, I honestly, I put my money where my mouth is. I contemplate my own mortality every morning and every night in the sense of fully understanding that like, I'm lucky that I have health today. Yeah. And if I understand that, that I feel that I can feel grateful for the health I have today,

like, how does that change my outlook on everything? Like I can feel the breeze more fully, I can feel the sun more fully, I can appreciate my sister more fully, because I understand that won't always be that won't always be. So to me, it's not morose or like macabre to be like, to think we're going to die. It actually helps us live. It actually helps us live. And I want more people to know that. Well, with that in mind, you would also spend a lot of time talking to people who maybe have regrets about their life. What do you find are the most common regrets that people have when they're at a point in their life where they know they don't have any life left? Yeah. So that's the main one is the health. So that's the main thing that my hospice patients

say to me is I wish I would have appreciated my health or how I used to be when I was like that. Like if they can no longer walk, or it's hard to eat, or they don't enjoy food anymore. Now, they might not be feeling like starving, but they wish that they could like enjoy a cheeseburger, right? Or enjoy whatever it is they like. So the first regret is usually not appreciating your health. The second one is always working too much. So working your life away, which is easier said than done, because we live in a society

where it feels like we kind of have to work. And then they usually have some kind of regret of not speaking their mind more, saying things they've always wanted to say to people, a lot of that. If they're willing to actually contemplate those things. Some people aren't. People die the way they lived. So if someone's been emotionally unavailable for 65 years, they're not going to suddenly become emotionally available just because they're dying.

Usually, usually. But sometimes they get there. It's so interesting because you kind of almost think that most people would have this like reflection or revelation on their life but you're so right like if you you don't just change who you are because you're at the end of your life if you're stubborn and didn't appreciate those things when you were alive you're probably not going to appreciate them when you're dying when you're you might be passing away or you have a family member that is nearing the end of life what is the information you think that they need to be knowing or the conversations they need to be

having the first thing is uh what their death looks like to their particular disease i think we don't talk about like actual specifics because people will be like, oh, just general. No, people on hospice or palliative care see this type of disease probably a lot. What can I expect? I really, every time I give specific things to people who are dying with specific diseases, the look of relief that comes on their face, they do not look more afraid. They act thankful and relieved that at least they know kind of what to expect. So what does your disease process usually look like in the disease progression? How can we help those things? So knowing that, so you can better prepare yourself and your family. And then also knowing, I mean, we think

about, we plan for everything, weddings, babies, vacation, you know, all these little details to make everything work right. That is how death should be as well. So it's like, what kind of funeral do you want? If you want a funeral, do you want to be buried, cremated? Do you want to be resuscitated? Do you not? I mean, I can, I know this is kind of like a long laundry list now, but like there's a lot to do there's a lot to plan so basically having at least one person who you trust and love know the things that you want medically I actually just even regret this now so this was just on the weekend for me but I took my partner Ben up to see my family in like a country town that we live in and where my nana is because he's only ever met her once anyway

we were at believe it or not a sporting event watching a niece and nephew and my nana was there she's in her mid eighties. She's very healthy. She still lives alone. But in the middle of the football match, she stopped and she turned around to me and she took her ring off and she gave it to me and she said, I want you to have this. And I was like, I'm not taking that Nana. Why? And she's like, because I know you've always liked it. And if I die, you just have it, just take it now. And I said, it's very stupidly. I was like, you're not going to die Nana. Like I'm not taking it. Let's talk about it when it happens. And I just brushed it to the side. Why didn't I sit in that? that was her reaching out to say like maybe let's talk about this what it's going to look like and I

didn't ask her any questions about what she wants when she passes away or when that time comes and that time will come she's mid to late 80s and now I'm having this conversation with you I thought why didn't why did I just pretend like it's not going to happen why didn't I have that conversation with her because it's such an important thing to have and I think that that's really something for everyone to think about right now is maybe you're afraid of dying but the person that your family member that's reaching out to you to have those conversations when the time comes they want to be buried the way they want to be buried it might be a cremation it might be a burial it might be depending on where and if you don't know that information it's not going to be great for the

person that you're burying and it's also not going to be great for you when you feel that heavy regret of I don't even know if I'm giving them what they want yeah and it's hard when you're already in that mode of grief to have to you do have to walk people don't realize you have to get into like business mode. Like people are going to be calling you businesses being like, what kind of flowers do you want? What kind of like, where's the destination? Like things that you don't think about, right? But if you already have this planned out, it won't be as hard. Julie, the name of your book is Nothing to Fear. We die the way we lived, be intentional about both. And that's such a powerful sentence in itself. But what do you mean by that? So like I said before, so we die the way

we lived. Meaning like I can think for me, if I can speak on my behalf, right? I know that I'm a little neurotic. I like to control. I don't want to let things go. I'm not very flexible. I like things the way they are. I don't want to ask for help, right? So if I continue to live that way, I'm going to die that way. And guess what? People who die that way, it's not the greatest because I've seen it. People who are getting towards the end of life, if they're unwilling to ask for help, if they're unwilling to be flexible and make changes, it's harder on them and their families. So I know that that's something I need to work on now.

Be intentional about both. So be intentional about my life, how I live my life, like my shortcomings. And I truly believe that if I can do that, I will live better just because I'm not dead yet. And I know I'll die better because I've seen it firsthand what it looks like when someone's unwilling.

because it's hard unwilling to be flexible and change you're going to change at the end of life your body will change end of story unless you're getting hit by a bus and you're like dead immediately right unless it's a sudden thing if it's not a sudden thing your body's going to change and you have to try to let go of what you thought it was going to be and i'm saying this to myself because i i have a hard time with that so we have to look at we have to look at our life look at how we're living what can we work on and I truly believe that like being intentional about how we live will help us die it's honestly so beautiful to speak to someone who who cares so deeply about this space because you know you never have to think about it until you're in it but the

reality is it is something we should think about because I and I see it in my own family the lack of preparation and and I see it in my mum still and I hope she doesn't she listens to this doesn't feel bad about me saying this there's always a lot of denial and has been a lot of denial up until a point where there couldn't be any more denial because it's it's now something that is inescapable also a coping mechanism yeah absolutely yes absolutely but also it does feel like some more preparation would have made everybody's life more manageable maybe happier in some ways as well even like the things you're saying around how and and like you know maybe getting passwords for things and joint bank accounts and the things that make life easier in the day to day it's like

avoiding that sort of stuff right until the end actually just makes everything so much harder and that's definitely a situation that I know our family has been going through but I appreciate everything that you share with us and also just in the way that you speak about death not being this thing that we have to be so petrified of how that can live alongside still having the same amount of grief is really, really beautiful. And it's so deeply appreciated. Thank you. Yes. And if your mom is listening to this, listen, you and your mom, it's so normal that that's that I want everyone to know that like, it is so normal to live in denial to live in fear to live in anger about this. And let's talk about it. Anyway, it can be messy, it can be hard, we can do it wrong.

and that's still better than just not so even by you saying that it's like you're already a step ahead of many people we are going to link your book and your tiktok and all your socials in our information bio on the podcast so if you're listening and you want to know more i genuinely i do not have anyone dying right now like i'm not going through what laura's going through but i still in a weird way thoroughly enjoyed your information and your videos so we're putting all that in the show notes. And Julie, thank you so much. Thank you so much, guys. I really appreciate it. So wonderful meeting you too. Thanks for watching!