Life Uncut - Welcome to Cloud!

Episode Date: February 19, 2025

Hey Lifers!Over the past 4 months we have been working on this very special project; a brand new 10 part mini series called Cloud, hosted by Life Uncut’s Executive Producer Keeshia Pettit.  Cloud is a podcast series created to discuss ADHD and late age diagnosis; a conversation that was sparked after Keeshia’s own diagnosis. The name Cloud is inspired by the experiences of many late-diagnosed women who describe finally feeling like a “cloud was lifted” after learning more about the different ways that their brains work and how they ‘fit’ into society. With all of the content about ADHD on social media explaining what the condition is, I’ve been on quite a journey figuring out the difference between what I thought were personality flaws and what is actually symptomatic of this condition. I realised that there was a bit of a gap of what to do next. What was I meant to do with all of this information? Cloud was created to fill that gap. It explores the intersection of ADHD with identity, relationships, career, and well-being so that we can live more fulfilling and more present lives.Each episode will offer insight into a different aspect of ADHD from guests like Mark Manson, the author of ‘The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck, psychiatrist Dr Kieran Kennedy, focus and attention expert Johann Hari and relationship experts Sabrina Zohar and Logan Ury. Today’s conversation is about emotional dysregulation, shame, masking, impulsivity, self criticism and success.  We chat: Why I was so hesitant to speak publicly about ADHD The ‘oversaturation’ of ADHD content on social media  How ADHD presents differently in girls and women Wondering if I'd have known earlier, would life have been easier? How I've changed since diagnosis How Britt & Laura feel I've changed Rejection sensitive dysphoria, emotional dysregulation, shame, impulsivity and time blindness. Am I a chameleon or am I masking? You can watch us on Youtube Find us on Instagram Join us on tiktok Or join the Facebook Discussion GroupSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to a Life Uncut podcast. Hello and welcome to Cloud. I'm Keisha Pettit, or some of you will know me as Producer Keisha from Life Uncut. And over the past four months, we have been working incredibly hard to create this very special project. It's a brand new 10-part miniseries called Cloud. Cloud is a podcast series designed to discuss ADHD and late-age diagnosis. It includes both personal stories and conversations with world-leading experts like Mark Manson,

the author of The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck, neuroscientist TJ Power, and relationship experts Sabrina Zohar and Logan Urie. This podcast series was made for you, however, it was also a very deeply personal story for me because at 29, I sat across from my psychiatrist and I finally asked him whether or not he thought that I had ADHD. One of the more definitive cases was the joke between us. Since then, I have been on quite a journey trying to figure out what I thought were personality flaws and what was actually symptomatic of a condition.

I've been really open about a lot of things in my life, most notably some of my terrible, terrible dating experiences, but this conversation was something that I felt really hesitant about. Creating Cloud has actually been one of the most life-changing and helpful things that I have ever had the pleasure of pursuing. This podcast series will cover why ADHD is everywhere right now, how it presents differently in women, and the lifelong narratives that you might create about yourself when ADHD goes undiagnosed.

Today's conversation is about emotional regulation, shame, masking, impulsivity, self-criticism and success. As for the rest of the series, I am joined by the most wonderful psychiatrist, Dr. Kieran Kennedy, to discuss all of the expert stuff. And I want to make it really clear that I am not an expert in this space. I am merely someone who has done a bunch of research into the hows and the whys that I am the way I am. Welcome to Cloud. Keish, we have literally received hundreds of messages over the last year or two requesting an episode with you on ADHD and your diagnosis. And Laura and I always said, we will give you the space whenever you're ready. But the fact is you weren't quite ready until now. Why is it that

you weren't ready? And what made you feel like now was the time to speak about it? I think mostly, I mean, I understand the responsibility that our platform has, and it's this type of thing that I didn't want to talk about it until I felt as though not only I wholly understood it, but I had kind of worked through a little bit of the emotional process myself. And I was at a point where I felt a bit more comfortable. There's also the fact that when you talk about things like this, you open yourself up to a lot of criticism. And particularly with ADHD at the moment, you know, there's a lot of eye rolling. There's a lot of like, oh, everybody thinks they've got ADHD these days. And, you know,

it's all over my social media and people are talking about it too much and blah, blah, blah. And so there's kind of two parts of stigma that are associated with ADHD. One is the stigma of what people think the condition is. And that's the fact that you're this really intense, really annoying, always fidgeting, can't sit still. You are emotionally eruptive. That type of stigma is one thing, but then the stigma of being yet another person talking about it in media really made me, I don't know, I guess like on Life Uncut, I never mind talking about it. I never mind joking about it, especially if it's in a self-deprecating way. But I felt like I would be annoying. I felt like I would be opening myself up to more criticism about the fact that people

are like, oh God, here we go again. Here we go. Someone who thinks that they're really unique and really quirky and that their lived experiences are so different to everybody else's when they're not. There's unfortunately definitely a narrative at the moment that's like, oh, another person with ADHD. I understand that. And I totally understand why you feel like you didn't want to put yourself on that platform to be another person. But I think that makes this series with you even more beautiful because you wanted to sit in it for a little while, not be that person. And I know that you want to deliver this series in a very different way to anything that we have seen in the media landscape so far. Absolutely. And it's had so many people like myself in there. You know, I was 29

when I was like I think 29 something like that around about nearly 30 and a lot of women in particular don't figure this out until much later in life and so we have this light bulb moment where we realize like oh my god that's what it is like that's the thing that I've been experiencing my whole life and I didn't know that that's what it was called not only did I not know that I was different in that way but it has a name and there's a lot of hope that's associated with figuring that out because there's treatment options there's management there's other people talking about it and that's a really really positive thing but the negative side of it is that I think the condition has been really over trivialized as soon as you type in ADHD into your

social media like whether it be TikTok or Instagram you will be flooded and some of the content as someone with ADHD I just find it so incredibly unhelpful there'll be things like if you sleep with your hands in a T-Rex position it means you have ADHD if you have ADHD it means you hate big spoons and I'm like no it doesn't also like I don't care if it does it's so unhelpful it's like who cares if you don't like a big spoon well it's like these are the things that trivialize it in a way that like that doesn't impact your life that doesn't you know and I I mean I guess for me the reason why I was so excited about you being willing to make this series is because there's so many people out there who have already gone through the diagnosis and will feel comfort in listening

to this but there's a lot of people who question okay is this me and I don't want anyone to listen to this and self-diagnose but I do think for anyone if you have t-rex arms it's you but I think if you're anyone who's kind of questioned because there is so much material around at the moment if there is someone who's questioned this might be the information that's needed to go through the processes and it could potentially change your life doing that in the same way that getting diagnosed has for you, Keish. You and I have been speaking about ADHD a lot over the last couple of years. And when we were talking about doing a single episode on it, I brought it to you and said, how about we do a mini series? And you were very, very apprehensive about it at the

start. And I would love to know why it was that you felt that apprehension, but then what was it that changed your mind in wanting to make cloud? I think when I was going through my diagnosis process, I found that a lot of the content I was seeing about ADHD didn't help me. And also I didn't relate to it. This whole series that we've created kind of goes along the mentality of reason, not excuse. And what I was seeing a lot of online was this type of conversation of, I might emotionally erupt at you at work and I will interrupt and I will miss all of my meetings. And you just have to get over that because that's just my ADHD. Like an excuse.

I was looking at it and I just thought, fuck, that is such a privileged position to be speaking from. Because if you're in that position where you can miss every single one of your meetings and you can go off at people around you and just completely destroy the relationships around you and still have a job, like how lucky are you? Because I couldn't do that. And I've had to create strategies and mask a lot of my behavior throughout my career to make sure that I'm not doing those things to cause myself to become jobless. Do you think, though, it's people not so much using it just as an excuse, but also giving themselves validation as to why they do those things? You know, I mean, I would be surprised if there's many people out there who have ADHD who are like, fuck it, I can do all these things because I have ADHD. I think people have this almost revelation that, like, it makes sense now why I have found these things so hard. And I guess it's more an explanation to themselves rather than an excuse to the outside world. I think it's also a pushback on the fact that if you're neurodiverse and you're living in a neurotypical society, a lot of you has had to adapt yourself. You know, we've had to kind of soften certain parts of our tendencies or maybe change the way that we approach things to fit a neurotypical world. And so I understand where it's coming from, but I don't find it helpful.

The other side of that is that if you have someone, let's say that it was like an employer or potentially even like someone that you're dating. And the only thing that they had ever heard about ADHD was the person who was shouting, you just have to get over it and you just have to get used to it. Or the person who just is late for work, lacks the ability to be organized, lacks the ability to make meetings on time, speaks in meetings when they're not being spoken to, or it's not productive conversation. Like there is impulsive parts of ADHD that can be challenging in a workplace. There's also incredible parts of it that can make that person hyper-focused and very

passionate about it, but it gets a bad rap, I think, in workplaces. Absolutely. And so if you think about a hypothetical situation where like, let's say you and I were going for a job, we were both equally qualified. We were both, you know, the two at the top that were going to be picked between. And the employer found out that I had ADHD and that you didn't. And the only thing that they knew about ADHD was the impulsiveness, was the, I'm going to miss every meeting. Like they're going to hire the person who doesn't have it because they want to look after the rest of their staff you know they want to make sure that they don't have to deal with things that are unnecessary there are a lot of misconceptions floating around about adhd and i also just didn't like the fact

that that was the only conversation that i was hearing that's kind of what ended up leading us to talking about creating a conversation that not only added the other side of adhd and the parts that can be really good and i don't want to be like toxic positivity it's your superpower like yeah, there are certain things that really fucking suck about it. And the exhaustion and the mental burnout that can come as a part of ADHD can be really debilitating. And I don't want to dismiss anyone who experiences that. But I wanted to try and talk to people about the way that they have created either structures around them, or they have shifted their mindset with ADHD to make it work for them and to make them feel a really fulfilled life. And there was this particular

a post that came in the Life Uncut Facebook group. Would you like me to read it to you Keisha? I do have that here actually because it was really really beautiful. We've shortened this because it was quite long but I am going to read it. It is from one of our lifers called Michaela and she did put it in our discussion group. An open letter to producer Keisha. Thank you. You don't know me but I wanted to say thank you for changing my life. I've been a listener of the podcast since the early days and it's always been like listening to friends catch up and your presence on the pod since you have joined has been nothing but epic. I just want to say that your transparency in talking about your journey with ADHD has changed my life. I found myself relating to your struggles

and I decided to look into getting a diagnosis. Oh my God, in caps, she yelled that. A psychiatrist diagnosed me with severe ADHD and since being medicated, my life has only changed for the better. I thought the fatigue depression in inattentiveness was a fault of mine, not an obstacle that could be managed i'm a phd student studying forensic science and this has changed my outlook on my study ability to focus and work and teaching it's changed my personal life incredibly it was like i was looking for an earring back in the carpet with only a small lamp in the corner of the room but now all the lights are turned on i've been meaning to write this message for weeks but i couldn't quite find the words to express my gratitude towards you for

changing my life I know it makes me it's actually just she put into words the way so many people feel and she felt that without you even doing a deep dive yet like that is the impact you've already been able to have which is why I think it's so amazing that you're going down this track now of like pulling apart every single piece of it which can be quite confronting for you and we're just so proud of you for doing it too yeah I feel really emotional reading that and I actually think it's um it's not because she's thanking me it's because I relate to the feeling of wondering what life might have been like had I've known earlier I particularly connected to her story because I did an honours in biomedical science and I had

the plan of doing a PhD and I think back to that time when I ended up deciding to leave the lab and leave, you know, that process of doing a PhD. And it was because I was so deeply depressed and so mentally burnt out. And I didn't know why. I thought at the time it was because I didn't have the grit. I didn't have the dedication and I didn't have the time management skills. I wasn't smart enough. I didn't have the things that would make me be able to complete it. You know, I did a year and a half of work in the lab and I ended up kind of throwing that whole thing down the drain and reading her story firstly I don't know how the hell you got that far into your PhD without being diagnosed and medicated because like I just so look up to you I wasn't able to get that far

but it really reminded me of oh wow if I had have known this earlier how would my life have been different you know what would I have been able to achieve and that's a really big part of the process of finding out you have ADHD and finding out that a lot of the reasons for why you are a certain way or why you can't seem to pay attention to something for an extended period of time or why you crave novelty like I was diagnosed with depression and anxiety back in 2019 and I was medicated at the time and for me that medication it definitely wasn't the right one I kind of became a bit of a zombie and I wasn't able to do my job in breakfast radio as well as what you know I had done previously and I remember going

through this process where I was like well fuck what are my options here my options to either remain as depressed as I am and to feel as unmotivated as I've felt for x amount of years it was probably about 10 years by that point or I can be on these meds and I can not be as quick and I cannot be as witty and I cannot really show up and do as well at my job but like god I don't feel as as awful internally you know and I think a lot of people particularly women who are late age diagnosed we go through this process of it's a really emotional and kind of you almost grieve what your life could have been and had I have known this earlier would I have been as hard on myself would I have beat myself up so much for not being able to like remember things in the way

that other people did to not have the skills to turn up for people in my life how I wanted to and how I desperately think they deserved would I have sought out really impulsive experiences and gone into relationships that were so fucked because I needed that dopamine high like I needed that buzz to get myself to feel anything probably not like I probably actually wouldn't have had to have experienced as much of that and so that's why that post hit me so so so deeply and that was kind of why I was like oh I've been worried about you know people rolling their eyes at me and I've been worried about them saying certain things that will be negative and judging me and whatever and I kind of was like they couldn't possibly say anything to me that I haven't said to myself

they couldn't possibly judge me more than what I've already judged myself and we have the ability to create a different type of conversation like that's such a special position to be in and it's something that I actually hold so deep in my heart that I'm like wow how lucky am I that I am now in position where I could potentially alleviate some of that self-hatred for someone else. It's such an honest reflection on it, Keish. And I think one of the things that I've noticed in the way that conversations about ADHD have shown up in media is that a lot of women who have been speaking about it, and this is in no disrespect because I know that so many people have gone through that same journey, like incredibly successful women, women like Julia

Morris. She was just speaking about it on I'm a Celebrity, Celeste Barber, Mia Friedman. There are so many incredibly successful women. And I think that we have that example now. And I guess for me, I'm like, a lot of people refer to it as a superpower. And a lot of people have managed to have these phenomenal careers regardless. But there are also people who are not able to hold down phenomenal careers. I don't want to discredit and say that the women who have come out and spoken about. I haven't struggled through it. I absolutely give credit to the fact that they have, but it hasn't stopped them from creating empires. And I think that hearing you say, okay, well, I lived this life that I wasn't able to achieve in. And I had to find a career

that satisfied different needs because of my personality is really a different conversation because, you know, thinking that you were having to do repetitive tasks and working in a lab and that did not suit being someone who had ADHD is a different story that's a story of I failed at that thing that I thought I really wanted to do for you sharing that like I'm sorry that you had to go through that before being able to know what it was and why that was the case I appreciate that and I think that you're exactly right and that's the benefit of the diagnosis right it's not about creating excuses for the way that you are but it's it gives you the license to just be a little bit easier on yourself because you kind of understand oh well that that makes sense you know that's why

we call this podcast cloud because every single late diagnosed woman that I ever spoke to was like oh my god I just feel like the cloud has lifted you know this fog has cleared it all makes sense now it all makes sense why I wasn't able to do that or why I kind of for me I didn't realize that was why I ended up finding myself in media because in media there is inbuilt novelty there is excitement there are people that are having conversations and it's very on the go and there's heaps of deadlines and it gave me that energy that I lacked so deeply working 10 hours with rats on cocaine in a lab like go figure selfishly I'm glad the fog didn't lift earlier you wouldn't have ended up here at life on guard that's for sure but I think that there's also a part of um

you know how we've spoken about the fact that there does seem to be so many people especially in media at the moment and on social media that are talking about ADHD and there actually are a larger portion of people who just like me end up in careers like that because it suits the way that your brain naturally is and I look at women like Celeste Barber, like Mia Friedman, Julia Morris and I think what were the things that made you able to be that way? What were the strategies that you put in place whether you were aware of the fact that it was a strategy about ADHD or not? how did you get to the position that you're currently in now you know yeah Keish how has being diagnosed changed your life I mean we know I know that I'm gonna cry in this that's okay

that's okay it has been the single most life-changing thing I have ever experienced um feeling the weight lift feeling the shame around what I thought I was you know feeling the lightness of medication I kind of liken it to putting on prescription glasses for the first time and I remember kind of in those initial days just being like what the fuck is this how people actually are like is this what it's like to have dopamine in your prefrontal cortex I am unstoppable like that was what my sister said when she got hearing aids she was like people can hear that's exactly how I felt I was like wow and I don't think I realized I don't think I realized how bad the burnout got until I felt the relief yeah and I don't think

I realized how many of um you know the things that I would say to myself that I didn't like about myself were able to be softened for me it was through medication for other people it's not for some people it's through lifestyle changes and and all of those other things but yeah I guess figuring it out made a lot of every experience of my life make sense it made sense why every single one of my school reports said the exact same thing. Struggled to pay attention. Every single one of them. Interrupts people in class. It's actually crazy because as a part of your diagnosis essentially you have to kind of show that you have had this since before you were 12 which is kind of strange and my mum ended up having a couple of school reports weirdly still

at her house and I read them all and and as I was reading them I got really upset about it because I was like how the fuck did no one notice like every single one of these reports says the exact same thing they all say she shows academic potential but she's so easily distracted and she disrupts other people and she talks too much in class and you know she's missing days all the time because she's off playing these sports and I was like guys yeah alarm bell and there's a process that I think a lot of people go through where anger is a really natural emotion especially when you're late age diagnosed and it's got to do with that whole like I wonder if things had to be as hard as what they actually were. When you spoke to your parents about getting diagnosed

did they agree? Because it's an interesting one often if your parents haven't noticed it in you or they don't think that of you it's hard for them to get their head around that this might be what it is because ADHD as we know and it's something that we will cover in the series and you cover beautifully Keish is that it presents very differently in women than what it does in men and there's different kinds you know there's inactivity there's hyperactivity there's there's different ways and I guess that people have a very specific or have had prior to the many conversations that have been had publicly about it that there was a you know it was kids that could not sit down couldn't sit in their seats were constantly like up and go go go but that

is not how it presents in a lot of women hence the late diagnosis yeah there are different gender tendencies I guess characteristics yeah yeah the thing about ADHD so right now there are three types there's hyperactive there's inattentive and then there's combined and I was combined type so I am combined type so I think for me a part of the anger came from the fact that you know our understandings of ADHD have evolved so much, particularly for girls and particularly for inattentive type, because it was previously thought of, like you said, as this really boisterous condition where you would kick down the walls and you would have tantrums and you would just have this lack of ability to kind of regulate yourself. And now I've got to give grace

to the fact that our understandings of that have really changed. But there was a little bit of anger left over in me because I do have the combined type so I did have those hyperactive symptoms as well and I remember talking with my mum about it and I guess I've had to come around and kind of apologize to her because I was really angry at her for kind of being like how didn't you notice you know how didn't you think that this is something that it could be and that you could potentially get me help for and I've had to let that go because you know firstly it doesn't really serve any of us and I know that she only ever had my best intentions but I haven't actually told my dad and I think the reasons for that have a lot to do with the stigma that's associated with it

with the fact that a lot of that generation think that it's not real the truth is I don't know how he would react but I think I've wanted to protect myself from the possibility of the fact he might not react well or invalidate it yeah yeah very much so and I think that also because of the element of it being there from childhood I know that for them it could cause them to be quite defensive and kind of be like well you know it's not my fault we didn't understand what was going on at the time and for a lot of little girls it has to do with social conditioning too so for a lot of them particularly if you fall into the inattentive type the hyperactivity can be between the ears can be inside your brain where you overanalyze everything and that's because as

a girl you're taught to be polite you're taught to be quiet you're taught to sit down sit still all of those kinds of feminine qualities that are ingrained in us at once we are really really little and so it causes that hyperactivity to be turned inwards and that's why a lot of girls myself included were diagnosed with anxiety disorders because that looks like anxiety on the outside and so you can kind of get stuck in this loop where you think it's anxiety for a lot of us, we were medicated and it's not until we get into this kind of phase of our late twenties, early thirties where there is, yeah, where there is this exposure of ADHD and where we're able to go, well, hang on a second.

I think it, I think it's that, I think that's what it is that I've been having. This anxiety didn't necessarily fit. And I've kind of been trying to fit a square peg into a round hole this whole time by treating it as anxiety alone. And that was very much what I experienced. And I think that that's the reason that I haven't, you know, wanted to be particularly, I guess I kind of pick and choose up until this point, obviously this podcast is going out and I'm happy to talk about it publicly now, but I've just been careful of picking

and choosing who I talk about it with because I just haven't wanted to have to deal with their judgment. You know, Keisha, I know you've said it's changed your life, but I think it's really important to let people know like exactly what that looks like. What are the main things in your day to day that changed for you so that people at home might be like, wow, like that's me. That's what I need. The main one that I have felt a really big shift in is my emotional regulation. And there is a lot of talk about this from professionals who say that the thing that people with ADHD struggle with is not actually a lack of ability to pay

attention. Firstly, we have the ability to hyper-focus if it's something that we really care about. It's actually in the way that we process emotion. For me, the biggest light bulb moment. And the thing that has changed the most is that I experienced this thing called rejection sensitive dysphoria. It's also kind of labeled as criticism sensitive dysphoria. And it's this extremely heightened emotional response to perceived criticism. And perceived is the key word in that. So I had absolutely no idea that the way I felt when people would say certain things to me, or if I was ghosted in the dating world, I had absolutely no idea that that was a really hyper emotional reaction I truly truly truly felt that everybody felt that way and so

there would be these little things like someone would make a comment and it very much happened in my romantic relationships and it's still an ongoing process but having the diagnosis and having the awareness of what this rejection sensitive dysphoria is gives me more of the ability to kind of zoom out on it and be like okay this is what they said is that what they actually meant is that criticism do I need to internalize that do I need to feel like an absolute useless piece of shit because of this one little comment that they've made yeah like throws you for your whole day or your whole week oh in months yeah months and months and months and that was the thing when I was dating uh you know before I kind of knew about

any of this is that I had no idea why I would be so hurt by some of the things that people would say or some of the things that they would do and and I didn't really have much awareness of that So that was one thing. Another thing is that my impulsivity has drastically shifted. When I was going through the diagnosis process, they ask you questions about like your financial impulsivity and kind of drug taking habits. And I was like, you know, that's the one thing that just doesn't really seem to fit. I don't think I'm that impulsive of a person. And then I realized that impulsivity actually impacts a lot more than just your bank account and whether you want to put a substance up your nose or not. I was so impulsive in the way that I would do every

single thing in my life. I hate making plans. I just get so overwhelmed by the stress of it. I like to, you know, I would kind of euphemistically be like, I'm so spontaneous and that's such a good quality. And, you know, I'm so adaptable and I'm so flexible and that's absolutely fine. You can call me and we can go to Africa tomorrow. That is not a problem to me. Also still not a problem. Yeah, we can still do that. That's absolutely a wonderful idea in my mind. But I was really impulsive in the way that I would go about friendships and I would go about projects and I would start all of these new hobbies and I would get all of the gear for them. And then I would do it for three weeks and then I would never do it again. I would kind of be like, ah, I've moved

on from that, you know, next, next, next, next, next. And it was this whole life of, okay, what's next what's next where's my next buzz coming from where's my next thing in my romantic relationships I was so drawn to that thrill of that chase and getting the person and it created this sense of like I couldn't have a healthy balanced relationship because I was just so in need of the toxicity I just wanted that buzz you know I wanted that dopamine we've all been there yeah Yeah, I don't think I'm ADHD, but I do recognize a lot of that in myself. Absolutely. And so that has shifted massively. The time blindness thing is still something that I really experienced. Time blindness is where you can get stuck in these moments where you

have absolutely no idea that it's been three hours and you're still in a scroll hole. And I think that a lot of people experience that. I think that people with ADHD have to be a bit more careful about it because we kind of lack that awareness of when enough is enough. But that was actually a conversation I had in this series with Johan Hari and about how our technology and how the society that we're in at the moment actually exacerbates a lot of the things that people with ADHD naturally struggle with. Which is also the big question that a lot of people have. And it's the, you know, it's the constant one that comes up. Like, is it ADHD or is it just a condition of the society that we live in? And I guess the

thing is, is like, well, like we said earlier, this is not about self-diagnosing. Like this is not about you listening to this podcast and then making the decision that you have ADHD by any means, but it is also recognizing like, what are the differences between things that we might all do on a certain spectrum versus things that are like very much considered traits of ADHD. Have you guys felt a difference in me? I mean, I've known you now for, oh my gosh, four and a half years. Too long. Wow. We're in like such a long-term relationship, guys. Time flies when you're distracted.

And I was diagnosed and medicated, what, nearly two years, a year and a half, two years ago. Four years because Lola was just born. Yeah. Yeah, four, almost to the month. So, okay, you guys have kind of known me half-half. Have you felt a shift, firstly? Yes, absolutely.

And I want to preface this by saying everyone listening, you know that Keisha is our employee, but Keisha is one of our closest friends too. So we – You can say things that a normal boss couldn't. Well, no, but also particularly like the amount of time that you and I spend together over the years is ludicrous. Like sometimes it's like 18 hours a day.

It was weird. Like we were in a little hole. So we saw each other socially, to chill out at a movie at home, at work, at work events. Like there were all aspects. I was with you when you were meeting people out, like when we were trying to date and stuff together. So I saw the whole spectrum.

And I have loved every second of you and every part of you from day dot, but there have been noticeable changes since your diagnosis and your medication. And I think a big one for me is you're just so much more focused and you're more calm. And I don't want to say calm in terms of that you were ever not calm. I actually genuinely get what you mean. It's like an inner peace. Well, I think it could, yeah, it's just a peace. And it goes back to what you just said, your emotional dysregulation. Because I remember the number of conversations that we would have, like deep and meaningfuls, where I was like, I don't think they meant it like that do you think that maybe you this is hitting you harder than it should and I remember

having those conversations on repeat and I would think to myself she feels big feelings you know like sometimes your reaction I don't want to say wasn't justified because I never want to say that but sometimes it was bigger than what it needed to be and I've noticed that change drastically I mean I second everything that Brit said and I have absolutely seen a huge shift in you two things that I think from like an employer perspective one is that I didn't know how to give you feedback before and it was because every time I did give feedback I felt as though I had like hurt your feelings and it was not my intention to but it made it really hard to to kind of navigate okay what's the right way because it wasn't criticism it was just hey like try doing

it this way or like even if sometimes if it was constructive criticism it was definitely met with a lot of resistance whereas now I feel like we can be really collaborative on the things that are feedback but I also like I'm also sensitive to feedback and criticism so like I understand that too. I think that's normal human nature as well. And the other thing that's very very evident and I almost I'm like I don't want you to be offended by this because I don't want it to I don't want to hurt your feelings it's not my intention but I would notice that we could be having a conversation and it could be about something completely different like we could be talking about about Africa literally Africa and then all of a sudden Keisha would be like I

ate a pineapple on Tuesday and then we'd be talking about something totally different but we would be so deep in one conversation and the chat would pivot but we weren't ready for it to pivot there yet and so it was kind of this real it wasn't even anywhere to pivot to it would just If it was so left field, we'd be like, we'll talk about the pineapple later. Like it's not in the two-minute time crunch until our deadline. Obviously that's like a terrible example of. No, it's not. Actually, it so checks out and I've kind of learnt that and now I can laugh

about it because I don't have this hyper-emotional response to criticism or what I would perceive to be criticism. Like you said, it wasn't even criticism. It was just like feedback that you have to have when you have a job, you know. I have learned that I have to sometimes explain to people that I've gone from A to D in my head and I didn't talk them through going through B and C but there was also I just laughed so many times thinking about it because she'd be like do you want to go to the park tomorrow dog I would have been like park tomorrow oh the last time I was at the park this happened and

I had that pair of shoes and where if that where did I put that pair of shoes and oh that's right I was supposed to go to the post office and pick up this thing and I've forgotten and it's still there and I need to go and get it. And maybe, maybe you just kind of hit the nail on the head in a different way. I think sometimes there would be like a running monologue that was said out loud of what you were thinking. And whereas now there's a lot more internal monologue. Yeah. There's a lot more silence. Like there's a lot more thinking before impulsively saying the things that you're thinking about. There was also this thing that Mel Robbins, who is one of the biggest podcasters in the world for anyone who doesn't know she's in the self-help space and she has ADHD she didn't

find out until she was in her 40s when her son was diagnosed and she said this one thing in a video once that I just remember looking at it and I watched it like five times and I bawled my fucking eyes out it was when she was talking to Oprah and she was talking about how a lot of her life she hadn't felt present for and now she feels present for it and she feels as though she's actually able to be an active participant in her own mind and in her own life and I was like that's it that's what's changed I now feel as though I'm not in this scatty daze I'm not in this over analyzing thinking about everything trying to like work out what the people around me want from me and trying to do that and trying to please them I'm just able to be a lot more I'm able to

like relax into the situation I'm able to relax into the conversation and pay more attention to what the person sitting next to me and it's not a foolproof system like it doesn't always work I will still often go off on random tangents but I have more awareness of it now and I also think I've got more awareness of when I am interrupting people and that's the thing about ADHD as well is that there is this certain element of the way that we kind of think about things and for me my best friend was diagnosed three months before me. So I kind of had this person to talk to about all of these things and that was so incredibly helpful. And when her and I would talk about certain things and we would go off on tangents, or if one of us would be telling a story and

the other person would start telling a story about ourselves, we never cared. We never thought it was rude. We never thought it was trying to turn the spotlight onto ourselves because we see that as adding to the conversation and trying to have a shared experience where it was like for the time when you were in the jungle for I'm a celeb this comes up all the time because it was fucking hilarious and it was one of those moments that I was like oh wow I did that badly there we were bungee jumping we were talking about you jumping off this platform we weren't talking we were trying to watch it it was on the tv we were watching Brit walk into the jungle and Keisha was like I've been to Africa I went bungee jumping look at photos and we were like not now yeah just

give us a minute and I just wanted to share this video of me jumping off the Victoria Falls bridge because I thought that made me able to kind of show I understand the emotions that she's experiencing right now I connect with that you know and finding out that firstly most people think that that's really rude it's just given me this ability to kind of zoom out and to sit in moments more and be more present with people. And the masking side of things is also something that I really... To be fair, I enjoyed watching it in the ad break. Thank you. Just so you know. It's a great video. I did enjoy it. I really enjoyed the, ah, as you crashed out. It was just the timing was a bit off. Yeah, it was inappropriate. Keisha, I'm glad you mentioned

masking because I do know that women with ADHD, and I mainly know this from you, but women with ADHD tend to mask a lot. They become expert maskers and they try to mimic the neurotypical community to blend in and not stand out. When did you realize you were masking and what was that like in terms of just pure exhaustion? So masking for anyone who doesn't know is kind of the, I guess it's the act of counter surveillance of what's going on around you, looking for the behaviors of the people in your orbit and mimicking them. It's kind of this idea of trying to work out what people want from you and doing that it's almost like a form of acting and for me it was really interesting to learn or I guess to try and figure out where it came from because I would

always make the joke that I was a chameleon you know that I could be put into any type of social situation whether it be with people who were you know just living in the country and I've done a lot of radio work out in very rural areas or I could be talking to high-end business people in the middle of the city I could be talking to people from other cultures I could be and I just found a way to kind of connect with them I guess and be what I thought they wanted me to be in that environment and what I've realized is that that actually led to a lot of my interactions feeling quite inauthentic and and it really led to me being what I would describe as an intense people pleaser. And I think it's important to kind of note where this behavior may come from. So there

was a study from quite a while back now, I think it was 2010, that estimated that kids with undiagnosed ADHD experienced 20,000 more negative criticisms about their behavior than a neurotypical kid by the age of 10. And so that can kind of start this narrative in your head that the way that you are and the way that you behave is not liked by the people around you. And so you kind of learn to try and figure out what it is that they want from you so that you can behave in an appropriate way. And like, we're all social creatures. We all want to belong. We all want to fit in, in the group. And so there is a plus side to being able to mask as effectively as what a lot of people with ADHD can. It means that you can be put into any situation and you'll probably

be fine. You know, you may even thrive, but it's really emotionally taxing. And there's this constant internal thought of, okay, that person's, you know, their body language, they're not faced towards me. So does that mean that they're not liking what I'm speaking about? That person just yawned. That person changed the conversation to something else. So they don't want to talk about what I'm talking about. So I need to listen to what they're talking about. And I need to try and get interested in what they're saying so that I can show them that I care about what they're saying because people tell me that I interrupt all the time and that I talk about myself. And so I don't want to be that way. Are you conscious that you're having those

thoughts though? Or is it something that almost happens as second nature? I'm conscious of it now because I know what it is. Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, it really resulted in me being a real people pleaser. And I think it's a lot of the reason that I struggled so much with validation and I needed so so so much feedback from people in a positive way that what I was doing was right and what I was doing was good and that they liked me and that you know I was appreciated and it was almost like an insatiable amount of validation and so not only was I feeling as though I wasn't really able to kind of let the guard down and let myself kind of chill in any social environment I also was exhausted from trying to figure out what people wanted from me

and that is not a complete circle even at this point over Christmas I didn't take my meds for like two or three weeks because I just didn't really feel the need to and I kind of started to sense that there was a bit more criticism of the way that I was and certain things there were quite a few arguments within my relationship about me being forgetful and me you know losing my keys and I lost my car a number of times and, and I couldn't find where I'd parked it. And like little things like that, it reminded me of the fact that I'm not quite over the point of not masking at all. And, and that can be a real debate with the whole ADHD diagnosis as well, is that kind of figuring out what is your personality and what is a symptom of a condition

that you don't necessarily have control over. Because if you're able to take a pill, and that's able to change, is it your personality? It's also a frustrating thing though because once you've been labelled as someone that is forgetful, people look out for it. So it's like I, and I mean I experience this because I love to just verbalise what is going on at the time. If I'm looking for my keys, I'll say, where are my keys? I know that they're in my bag.

I'm just looking for them. And instantly people are like, oh, you always forget your keys. And you're like, no, you look out for the moments where you think that I've forgotten something. Like you're actually very aware that you have labelled me as a forgetful person and now you look for those. You don't ever comment on the 9,000 times that I know exactly where my keys are that you'll comment on the times that you think I've forgotten it.

That is the whole conversation about ADHD that I would love to shift because no one ever says, oh my God, you're so ADHD when you're an incredible entrepreneur because you have a tendency to take risks where other people don't because you have an ability to kind of look outside the box and look for solutions that other people don't. No one ever says, oh my God, you're so ADHD, Laura, because you run three successful businesses and you can switch tasks with a click of a finger. You don't need the warmup time to get into something different because you're just able to like hop over to the next thing that's needed from you. No one ever says that. They always say, oh, you're so ADHD when you are late to appointments or you

forget that you've had an appointment to begin with. It's always the negative side of it that spoken about and that again perpetuates the narrative of the fact that you're not a good person that people around you don't like you and that you know that they don't want you to turn up as you naturally are in society and it's a big part of why people kind of struggle to admit to the people around them that they have ADHD because they don't want the connotations of being a forgetful thoughtless a selfish person yeah and I think it has connotations of failing at something as well there's this idea of like i think maybe you touched on it perfectly when you said this idea of an excuse not a reason or a reason not an excuse but for some people admitting that that's

what it is feels like it's a failure then the word deficit is in the title of the condition yeah like attention deficit hyperactive disorder i mean for a lot of medical things we know this about pcos we know this about a lot of conditions the names for them are shit like yeah adhd is a fucking terrible name having deficit in the title of something that you have to label yourself with it's awful like it's awful to be like oh I have a brain condition that causes me to be deficit in dopamine in like the way that I'm able to pay attention to people like that's horrible and also it's not true we don't have an attention deficit we have more of a a lack of ability to direct where that attention goes and that's why we can actually be incredible people to have in

the workplace incredible people to have in relationships and friendships I'll tell you one thing if you get someone with ADHD and you give them a task that they're interested in they will get it done eight times quicker than anybody else like we can get shit done if we care about it and if we're invested in it and yeah I don't know there's just there's a lot of the negative talk about ADHD that I've tried to work out whether I'm defensive about it because it is offensive or if I actually just think that there's a lack of understanding of what the condition is. Yeah, yeah, I totally get that.

Or defensive about it because it is easily to be defensive. Yeah, because I have criticism of sensitive dysphoria. No, I don't read that at all. And I take everything that. No, Keish, we just want to say the biggest thank you for everything that you have shared in this podcast series and for the personal stuff, for the research that has gone into it, for the organising of the incredible, incredible guests

that you have put together. This was, I mean, it started as a little idea and it has truly grown into a phenomenal passion project. And we hope that for anyone who listens to it, whether you've been diagnosed with ADHD, you suspect that potentially you might have it yourself, or there is a loved one in your life who has ADHD and you want to better understand what it is that they go through and what their life experience is. This is what Cloud was created for. And we're so proud of you for what you have done to achieve this. Yeah. Seeing you the last couple of years has been truly amazing to watch. And even just the last couple of months that you've been working on this, like you've been working on this since last year, nonstop, and it's incredible. And

the people that you have gotten on cloud to interview just shows how incredible you are to have been able to access these people. These are some of the biggest, most influential people in the world in their industry. So I just want to say we're really proud of you. The series is incredible. We've obviously listened to all of it. I sat in on some of the interviews to watch. It was really cool.

So well done, and I know you're going to help a lot of people. Thanks, guys. I so appreciate it. I mean, firstly, you gave me a project I could hyper-focus on for like a couple months. That was great for my brain. I was given the license to kind of do a real deep dive, and you gave me the perfect amount of we will lead you

when you want you know guidance but you can create whatever you want and I'm so grateful for that because it gave me the creative license to create a conversation that I was really really deeply passionate about and for something that I was initially quite reluctant to create because I didn't want the eye rolls and the judgment I've ended up being so proud of what we've made and so so so deeply hopeful that it really genuinely helps people like I hope that it gives them the ability to not be as hard on themselves and to not criticize themselves so much and to not feel that really really deep exhaustion and mental burnout that living with ADHD can cause like it's just so cool that we have a platform that is able to provide that for other people and

that's something that I do not take lightly whatsoever so with all of that said cloud is available now it is a podcast series that will live in its own little feed the second episode is available now for you to listen to with Mark Manson and we have some truly phenomenal conversations coming your way in the next couple of weeks. There will be 10 episodes for you to consume. Every single one of these episodes will be available on YouTube. You can like, subscribe, follow, you can rate,

you can leave a comment about the podcast and what you thought. But most importantly, I really hope that you can share this with someone in your life that has ADHD. And I so deeply hope you love it. Thanks for watching!