Life Uncut - "Why Aren't I Coping?" Postpartum Depression and The Baby Blues - Uncut with Psychologist Kat Wyeth

Episode Date: September 18, 2025

Postpartum depression affects between 15 and 20% of Australian women during the first year after birth which translates to thousands of new mums and about 100,000 families every year that experience this often invisible condition. For anyone who has experienced it, you’ll likely know that it is more than a short wave of sadness. It can have lasting effects on mums, on their relationships with their babies, on their friendships and their relationships. So we wanted to create this episode not just for the mums who have experienced PPD, but for their friends and partners so that we can all better understand the condition and be able to support someone we love who is experiencing it.  Joining the podcast today is Kat Wyeth. Kat is a registered and practicing psychologist, the Senior Psychologist of the Psych Collaborative and host of the Psychology Sisters podcast. Kat also experienced postpartum depression.  We chat: ‘Baby blues’ v postpartum depression Signs and symptoms Who is likely to develop PPD? The unspoken guilt of struggling because it implies you aren’t grateful for your baby Being ‘on the other side of it’ How it can impact your relationship with your partner Postpartum resentment and rage The perfect mother myth Intrusive thoughts and new ‘emotions’ when you enter motherhood ‘Regret’ is often yearning for your old life or identity Kat mentioned two services that offer free counselling The Gidget Foundation And Panda Organisation  You can find more from Kat, and seek some psychological help at her website You can listen to Kat’s podcast The Psychology Sisters  And find Kat on Instagram and the psychology sisters on instagram  You can watch us on Youtube Find us on Instagram Join us on tiktok Or join the Facebook Discussion Group Tell your mum, tell your dad, tell your dog, tell your friend and share the love because WE LOVE LOVE! Xx  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This episode was recorded on Camaragal land. Hi guys and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Laura. I'm Brittany. Now today's episode feels, firstly it feels very timely for me, but secondly it is something that has been requested so many times over the years. I'm actually surprised we've managed to get six years into life on cart and not done it yet. It is unusual, our timing, like a week before you're about to have your third baby, we decide to do a deep dive into this topic. Yeah, well, we're talking about postpartum depression. Now, I don't say this because I have any indication or feeling as though it's something that's going to hit me, but we've talked about it quite a bit in terms of

getting someone on who's a professional, but also we wanted to not just have a professional on, we wanted to speak to someone who has experienced it themselves. Because it's one thing to talk about an experience from a clinical perspective. And it's a totally different thing to talk about it from someone who's actually lived it and understands it. So we thought, let's find an overachiever who has done both. To give you a bit of stats around how prevalent it is, postpartum depression, it affects 15 to 20% of Australian women during their first year of birth. Hundreds of thousands of families are affected by this. And I don't know whether I'm probably overstepping here, but I would say that so many women experience it and are not diagnosed because

they either don't have the resources, they don't have the understanding or the accessibility to be able to go through diagnosis. But maybe even a lot of women that are experiencing it that have no idea that they are experiencing it. Like it's really hard when people have a baby, every single woman, everyone experiences hardship and fatigue and tiredness and feelings of hormones and being overwhelmed and sadness, if we're not speaking about what it means, it's pretty easy for it to go undiagnosed because you're like, well, I'm just in the throes of having a baby. Yeah. And I also think that there's a really big misconception that postpartum depression shows up straight away. That if you're going to have it, you have it when your baby is a

newborn baby. And so the other experiences that you have maybe slightly down the track of being a new mom, that could be chopped up to something else, but we're going to get into it today. Look, I'm very excited to introduce who we have on the podcast today, Kat Wyeth. Kat, she's a registered and practicing psychologist, the senior psychologist of the Psych Collaborative and also hosts her own podcast called the Psychology Sister Podcast. Now, we did say she's an overachiever because Kat also experienced postpartum depression after having her little girl. Kat, welcome to the pod.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk about such an important topic and one that is really needed. Are you as excited to talk about your axillium filtered story? because you did just say to us, I'm not going to talk about poo because I am a practising psychologist and I want to be taken seriously. So you dug deep for something else. It's not even that. To me it's like, hey, we're going to talk about how depressed you are

but first throw yourself under a bus. I thought no poo stories today. I'm trying to have a bit of integrity, you know. Oh, don't. Leave it at the floor. Yeah, we don't have integrity in this room. It was actually a couple of months ago I was in the midst of training for a marathon and I was doing a long run, right?

And at the time I was still breastfeeding and I was thinking, okay, I'm trying to time it so that my boobs aren't leaking. And for some stupid reason upon reflection I wore just, you know, marl grey, you know that really light grey? Oh, yeah. Which shows everything. When it gets wet. It shows everything.

It was a little crop top and just shorts and anyway, I was out for a long run. And as I was running I was like, everyone is so happy today. They are getting a lot of smiles today and, you know, this is really nice. Birds are chirping, sun is out. This is amazing. And as every five kilometre progressed, I just remember thinking, why is everyone just giving me these little smiles?

And I thought, oh, that's really, really lovely. As it goes on, I start to really notice a bit of a smell. I was like, what is that parmesan smell? Parmesan? Yeah, it smells like parmesan. Anyway, the last 5Ks I finish and I get in my car and I take, you know, a little selfie to put on Strava for my like three followers and I realized as I taken this selfie that one boob has completely leaked and just one just one has completely leaked and you can start

to see the white you can start to see the white come out of the one boob and it's worse because it wasn't two two I think you could just be like I'm sweating yeah so the smiles were sympathetic yeah and I got home and I was like you know when you drive home in in silence and you just think of every single person. It was all mums though. It was all mums. It was all mums being like, we've been there. Well, no, it might have also been men being like, ew.

I reckon they wouldn't, unless they're dads, I reckon they wouldn't get it. No, I don't think they did get it. I think they just liked it. I think they were just like, wet t-shirt competition, one boob only. Just one boob only. Kat, if it makes you feel any better,

I once had this experience where I was at my shop at Tony May and I was serving a customer and I felt something leaking and I looked up and I was like, oh, my God, the air con must be leaking. And I was looking around and this poor man, I looked down, I looked at his face and he was horrified and I was squirting breast milk through my shirt. That's a powerful titty.

It's just powerful. It's just gone through the material. It was squirting through the material and just lactating and it was like we were all watching it happen in real time. But I'm sorry, talk about overachieving. You're training for a marathon as well? Like I don't do that without a baby. I was like what are you doing, woman?

I think that's part of the problem. I think, you know, we'll talk about it later, but there's a type of depression called high-functioning depression and I think it looked like I was doing okay. Right. It was probably my way of coping. Kat's like, I'm running away from the misery. She's like, do you do ultra marathons?

Like how far can I run? 100 kilometres? I'm doing it. I mean, I find this really interesting because obviously you were already a practising psychologist at the time, but is it something, your interest in postpartum depression, did it come after experiencing it yourself or was it already something that you were pretty well versed in in terms of speaking to other mums about it and prescribing

medication or helping and you know trying to get other people through this period of their lives I definitely piqued my interest postpartum like when I became a mum I really understood I worked a lot with women particularly in fertility and particularly women who had just become new mothers that was generally the population that I saw anyway but it wasn't until postpartum where I was like oh I get it I I remember thinking how is no one screaming from the rooftop how hard this is I cannot believe that almost every second person in the world goes through something like motherhood and how is everyone okay with this like this is so hard this is just incredibly hard so I think postpartum gave me that almost that personal humanness side to it I knew all the clinical

I knew all the symptoms, I knew the risk factors and blah, blah, blah. But I think experiencing it and experiencing the intensity of the depression that I did, I really felt, wow, I really understand how difficult this is. And I think that that really helped. What's the difference between baby blues and depression, like postpartum depression, if there is a difference? Yeah, there is a difference. So baby blues tends to happen around the three days postpartum.

So that's when you get a lot of your pregnancy hormones, they drop. So your estrogen and progesterone, they drop. and estrogen and progesterone really help with maintaining your mood so balancing your mood so that'll last for about a week or two the baby blues and then naturally it tends to level out like you might have had that experience yeah I had it really bad with Lola I remember sitting on the side of my bed looking at her in her cot and I think we were day two and also I mean all the mums will get this but like the cluster feeding so you've been awake for 48 hours you've also just run a marathon literally labor and then you're expected to just keep this human alive

which is the most bizarre experience and they're going to keep you awake for 48 hours so you have no time to recover you're like I just want to sleep yeah and we went straight home from the hospital so didn't have like midwife help or anything like that and I remember looking at her in her cot and I was just like what have we done we have ruined our lives and I had this very it was just such a clear thought of like I this was a terrible idea and then and you know it improved and got better and better and better but I was like very much hit by the baby blues for the first week and a half I would say yeah and it's so overwhelming isn't it particularly cluster feeding I remember cluster feeding from like 7 p.m till 5 a.m like every night 20 minutes I'm

thinking oh my god what have I done but postpartum depression I mean it can start actually in pregnancy and it can develop really any time within the two years actually post having a baby so you can have later onset postpartum depression but that's doesn't level out on its own it's not like you know the baby blues which will eventually just level out postpartum depression it's characterized by just persistent feelings of sadness emptiness hopelessness guilt and it doesn't go away what happens when you say it doesn't go away what happens if it goes untreated so for a lot of women actually untreated it leads to symptoms of intense burnout they get exhausted right if they're in this state of denial I'm fine but then they're not fine new mums are

such a they're such a vulnerable group right but I think they're at one of the highest risks of suicide and I think that that's really the worst case scenario so untreated postpartum depression can lead to so many things burnout withdrawal really those intense depressive symptoms like not wanting to get out of bed it's going to impact on your ability to bond with your baby not wanting to leave the house and you know so many new mums feel this guilt of you know I'm supposed to be enjoying this but I'm not and so what I've wanted is what I've wanted or there's so many people that would kill to have a baby and you know what it creates is in this even bigger cycle of guilt that then it almost shuts you off even more shuts mum off even more of like I

shouldn't be struggling you know I should be happy and I should be enjoying this which then makes it harder to actually talk about and to even acknowledge. So how common is it I guess to start developing postnatal depression in pregnancy as opposed to after? It's definitely more common after but if you have a history of anxiety or depression or mental ill health you're going to be at risk from day one of conception right so you're going to have a much higher chance I think it's three times as likely to develop any kind of prenatal depression or anxiety during but then after actually it's a lot higher so you're at 40 40 times more likely to develop postpartum depression with a history of mental ill health yeah is it purely hormonal or is it also situational

because lifestyle yeah and I don't mean just like like lifestyle but like parenting is so hard becoming a new mom for a lot of people like people don't cope with the intensity of it the lack of sleep the going from having freedom to having it impact everything around your relationship and and I think that that changes everything in your life you know so is it always a hormone related aspect to it or is it just completely what it is that you're experiencing in your life such a good question and I think that's like nature versus nurture is what's happening you know neurologically for me with all these hormone shifts versus is it you know just happening with my maybe isolation or not feeling supported by your partner etc it's really both I think

talking about the baby blues that's the start of the you know the hormonal shifts the neurological changes in your brain and then it's exacerbated blows up if you're more isolated if you don't have that support system if you've had a history of mental ill health you're more likely to experience depression so just like any mental health disorder it's usually always a little bit of both I think also we underestimate it's just like oh you have a baby you don't sleep that's life get on with it having no sleep is literally a form of torture anymore keeping somebody awake and especially letting them sleep for a tiny amount of time and then bringing them out of it is a form of torture but all of a sudden we're like hey you're just a woman so like you're just

going to do that for however many years and it's pretty easy to forget that because it is just our norm but couple that with your intense the the biggest hormone drop that you'll ever experience in your life with torture like why and then we're all like so shocked that the prevalence of of depression is so high you know it's what always strikes me is so interesting though is like everyone's experience of motherhood is so different right and like firstly obviously if you're listening to this you're listening to it because maybe you've experienced postpartum depression yourself you you are in the trenches or it's something you want to have the clarity about before going into motherhood but you know there's people who experience the worst versions of it and

then there's people who go back for a third so it's like it's so hard to have all of these conversations because everyone's experience is so different you know yeah and I mean that was something we were just talking about with you if you're going to go back after we'll get into that but did it take you by surprise when you started to develop it and realize that okay this is actually more than baby blues. Did it take you by surprise because you're like, well, I've studied this for so long. I help everyone with this. I came in armed with the knowledge and everything I needed. I guess that realization of depression, as we know, really doesn't discriminate as much as you can be armed. When was the feeling that you realized, oh, okay, this is more than just

being tired and sad? Yeah. Mental ill health does not discriminate, unfortunately. I had all the tools. I knew what to expect and, you know, I did everything I could during pregnancy to try and prepare myself. There was actually one distinct moment. I was actually in a lot of denial for a really long time. I think, you know, not just not coping with it, but also as a psychologist who works in this space, I thought, what is wrong with me that I can't cope with this? I should be able to do this. Why am I failing? Why am I crying every night? Why am I getting so angry? And And actually Delilah was just, she was about to turn I think 11 or 12 months. It was almost her first birthday and I walked into this shop.

Do you say her name was Delilah? Her name's Delilah. Oh my God, say it. My daughter's called Delilah. It's a beautiful name. And he looked at her and he said, oh gosh, she's beautiful. How's motherhood? And I just said to him, it's so hard and I actually, I'm not loving it.

And it was in that moment where I was like, I couldn't even put on my customer service mask. Like I couldn't even just put on the mask. I was like, oh, it's so good. Yeah, it's great. I had just been so depressed that I was just getting through the day. And I just remember that moment and I just felt so guilty. I just remember thinking there are parents who would kill to have a beautiful, healthy baby.

And, you know, what was happening in the Middle East was unfolding. and I had that in the back of my mind is there are so many things going on in the world where mothers are losing their children here I am with the support here I am with the clinical knowledge and why aren't I coping you know I really felt like I was failing but it's I think it's not uncommon for especially people who go through IVF treatments or who have so desperately wanted it for so long and then experiencing it they feel like they're not allowed to have any feelings of and I'm not saying regret but like sadness or hardship or any of the other stuff that goes hand in hand with parenting,

I think there is this kind of like you should be grateful and don't speak about the parts you're not grateful for because it will come across as though maybe you regret it or maybe you were undeserving, like the fertility privilege that's kind of all tied into it. I had that conversation with someone the other day, literally in the last five days, that had gone through IVF a couple of times and they'd finally had their baby

and they would never admit it to anyone else out loud but it was they were really struggling and they're like it's weird because this is what I wanted for so long and I had that conversation with them I was like maybe you're experiencing something a lot of women experience like maybe you need to go and speak to somebody and you know because you did want this and of course it's hard but yeah I think it's just that realization of your life is different but it doesn't mean you can't experience something just because like both can be true just because you wanted something so badly and just because you paid money for it with IVF and, you know, you've had all these failures to get it, that doesn't mean that you're not allowed to simultaneously also mourn the life

that you used to have or feel sad. And I guess that that is another internal battle and level of guilt that is added onto the throes of the already baby blues and depression. Yeah. What are the highest like indicators or risk factors that people might have that would potentially indicate that they could be someone who will go through postpartum depression? Isolation is a really big one. So mums who are quite isolated and not just from having people around you because you can have people around you and still feel really alone. It's mums who don't feel like they can talk about it or can even admit or acknowledge it. So that's a really big risk factor.

You know, marginalised communities, culturally diverse communities, people who've had mental ill health before. So they're all really important risk factors. But I also want to acknowledge here that you can have all of those things. you can, you know, be well supported and, you know, have the money and the roof over your head and still really, really struggle. I had a really interesting appointment recently. So I had to go and have an iron infusion for this pregnancy because my iron was non-existent. And the doctor I was speaking to, the specialist, there's apparently a whole heap of research that's coming out that indicates that women who have incredibly low iron are at a higher risk of

postpartum depression as well which I had no knowledge of and I mean it's not something that I think most people would even know you go like I'll be fine you get through it but it's so interesting like the different ways in which they're now finding out can impact a woman past having their baby how long after your birth did you experience depression and then I guess how long did that last for how long were you struggling for that because you have come out the other side now yeah mostly I still mostly have my days which is common for postpartum depression as well I think that's actually a really common myth is that once you through you through and everything's sunshine and rainbows but that's not the that's not the reality at all yeah so I really noticed

symptoms from about four months into it which is actually not a really standard time to experience postpartum depression usually for most mothers it happens you know within a couple of weeks actually after the post you know baby blues actually just never go away and yeah I was seen you guys just before that it was only a couple of months ago that I really started to wake up without that lump in my throat, without that dread for the day. And I remember one of the first days I woke up without that. And I thought, my God, have I died? Is this heaven? I can breathe. Yeah. Like I heard the birds chirping and I was thinking, wow, you know, and so that was a really nice moment of, oh, this feels nice. And so that's till your daughter was

nearly two so that's a quite a significant amount of time because I think a lot of people think maybe you know a couple months or six months but yours was quite a long time 18 months yeah what were the signs for you what did your day-to-day look like that you knew that this was depression and I say that because a lot of women at home will be thinking about their feelings and their day-to-day and wondering if it is if it isn't what you know what did it look like every single day for you yeah and I think there's such a spectrum of what postpartum depression looks like postpartum depression can be not wanting to get out of bed it's waking up with dread it's not wanting to bond with your child it's you know struggling to get to work not having you know

not doing your self-care activities not being able to exercise but it can also look like going to work and putting on a happy face it can also look like a mother who looks like they're coping it really on a deeper level for me it was just this intense guilt this intense fear of failure of why am I not coping and every night I remember I'd almost get into bed and I would just be crying most nights like I would just be like why am I not coping why am I not okay what is so wrong with me I should know this I should have it together I've just gotta yeah like suck it up not coping like what did the not coping look like I don't mean to pry but I guess understanding of what that actually how that reflects your bond with your child maybe did you have like a level of resentment

or did you not want to do things for your child that maybe you knew you should do? You know, were you distancing yourself or were you trying to palm it off to your husband or I guess all of those little feelings because I think most people, myself included, we get into bed at night and cry all the time. But like what, yeah, what was the connection like through the day with your child? Yeah, so obviously in my time with her I felt really tired. Like I didn't want to connect with her. I had all these ideas of things I think I should be doing.

I should be getting out of the house. I should be going to mother's group. I should be going to baby sensory and all those things. and I just didn't have the energy. I just didn't want to. And, you know, I was really mindful not to, you know, be an absent mother because I know how much attachment and being a present parent is important.

But at the same time, I was like, I'm not bonding with you. I'm seeing other mothers describe this love, right, like this love of I just love them so much. And I remember there was a swimming lesson I went to with this mum just being like, how good is motherhood? And you were like, you were like totally. It's the best. I fucking love it.

Can you take my child home with you? I have two of them and there was yeah that guilt again of like oh my god why am I not enjoying this so but then did you fake it then were you like yeah I love it absolutely I was like it's the best but yeah like so there's the motherhood part and then there's a part of like your relationships are feeling so resentful for your partner that yeah they can't you know that that postpartum resentment is real postpartum rage is you know intense so your relationships are impacted and and I withdrew from a lot of my relationships because I was so embarrassed and ashamed and also in denial i was like i'm a psychologist i should know this why am i not able

to cope how did you deal with the rage part because i think you know more asking for a friend no but it's something that when you are so tired and i mean obviously i can't speak to having postpartum depression but i can definitely speak to like feeling to the fucking rage like yeah and it's you know it's it's i'm not saying it's directed at my husband he's great but it's just like this feeling of being angry which I think a lot of mums experience especially when their tank is empty there's nothing left in it short-tempered I guess as well because like you don't have anything left the wick has been burned yeah so it's like smaller things probably set you off quicker than something else yeah because you got no you write no gas in the tank I think it goes

against what I like to call the perfect mother myth you know that the perfect mother is gentle and patient and kind and you know self-sacrifices she never gets angry she's never regretting having children she's not allowed to be disorganized and so rage is such a common and it's a normal response I think just reminding yourself that your tank is empty you're allowed to be angry no wonder you're angry anger is a sign of injustice anger is your way of coping with like this feels really unfair and it often stems from resentment like I don't know if you've ever experienced that but like oh why isn't my partner doing more coping with anger it is just firstly for so many women and they feel like they're not allowed to be angry.

There's this kind of, it's kind of a bit messed up, but there's this socialized idea that women shouldn't be angry. And we need to be angry. Anger is normal and healthy. So acknowledging that you're allowed to be angry. I think that that's an important thing to talk about too. Laura, I remember, I don't want to speak for you, but I remember that one story that's always stuck with me with Lola,

which is Laura's second. But I remember you had just been going through it. You were doing a lot of single parenting because Matt had been on Dancing with the Stars. You know the story I'm going to tell. No, I don't. And I just remember that whole period. I remember the Dancing with the Stars period and I fucking wanted to murder him.

I just remember this one story. You just hadn't slept. You had a newborn. You had a toddler. Matt was away. And I just remember Lola had been, she was an unhappy baby. She was like a bit unhealth, like colic or something. She just cried a lot.

And I remember you just saying Matt walked in the door after like 15 hours and she was screaming and you didn't even say anything. You just like thrust her in his arms and you're like, I'm leaving. And you went for a drive because you were like, right. no it was it was actually the opposite of that so Matt came home this day and he'd been out and I was not coping like this is probably I mean for me my baby blues with Lola extended for quite a while but she was a she didn't sleep for 10 weeks she slept only on me and I slept to sleep sitting up in a bed and then Matt was away working so I had to do the both kids and it was really

hard and I was working so it was a it was a time it was a really really hard time and how I came out of that and still wanting a third I don't know well it took five years I was fucking scarred but he um he came home from training this one day and I was in tears or being upset about something and he was like I know it's really hard at the moment and I was like but you don't know because you're not here so you don't have any understanding of how hard it is and I was like I'm really fucking not coping and we have a rule in our relationship where we don't swear like when we're you know, usually it's, you don't swear at each other. Not that you just can't swear in context. And he was like, I don't really feel like now's a good time for you to be swearing. And I was like,

you know what? I reckon now's a good time for you to go fuck yourself. And I handed him Lola and I left and I went to my sister's house. And I just remember that two hours at my sister's house was probably the most enjoyable two hours I'd had in the six weeks since Lola had been born. And I came home and the poor guy, Lola was screaming. I could hear her from the car park. Poor guy. That was your day. No, I know. But I could hear her from the car park and I walked inside and he was like,

I can't believe you would leave without her being fed. Like I've just been dealing with her screaming for two hours. And I was like, honey, I fed her just before you walked in the door. That's what she does all day. All day. And he was like, oh, my God. I get it. And he was like the first, well, he got it as much as he could possibly get at the time.

And he like really. He got it until the morning when he left. No, he got it and then he got me help. You know, like he got support because he couldn't physically be there. But it would have ruined our relationship had something not been fixed in that moment. But you can see why so many relationships don't survive like that period. It's tricky because, you know, I always say, I say to friends who have little babies and who are going through the absolute trenches of their relationship, because it does affect

your relationship. You know, even people have an amazing relationship and have wonderful babies. It still affects your relationship in ways. And I always sort of say, don't make permanent decisions around how you feel about your partner until your kid is two I was like because you will feel lots of feelings towards them and maybe they'll be great and maybe they'll be terrible but like give it the chance to come good on the other side and you know so many of my friends who have been through it with their partners and with having little kids their kids are like four five six now and they're back to being amazing but

I think we underestimate how much it really rattles your relationship yeah it has such a big impact on your relationships and divorce rates are like the highest when your baby is about to turn yeah totally it's why it's so weird when people are like our relationship's on the rocks let's have a band-aid baby I'm like that's the quickest way to get to the to the lawyers like that's that is the wrong idea how did it impact your relationship oh it definitely had a really big impact on my relationship because you know we were both working we both run our own business we were trying to do it all and we just weren't we just weren't doing it all together and I was so resentful I was like you don't understand you know as much as they try and understand and they're

saying all the right things like from a psychological lens it's like validating and like being like I understand it's like you're like your emotional intelligence is great but you don't really I don't need your freaking logic like I don't need I need a nanny yeah but yeah it really impacted us you know we even had talks about you know separation because we were just so unhappy but I also knew that that wouldn't have made us feel any better that would not have improved anything but I was so angry and I think a part of it on on me is I should have reached out for help a lot earlier like I was projecting and I can see that now but when you're in the midst of it you're so angry because their life doesn't change like it feel I mean it

does but not to the same extent that it does yeah for you they can still leave when they want they don't have to physically be tethered to the child to keep it alive I remember my husband saying like I have to go to work I was like you get to go like even just the drive to work he said I've got to drive for an hour and I thought like what I wouldn't do it's funny how you start fantasizing about things that you would have hated back in the day. You know, like that's, oh, God, guys, I've really forgotten what this period's like. That's why Kat took up marathon running.

She's like, my new hobby is running for four hours at a time. It's so funny. Like even so we've got this house down South Coast, it's a three-hour drive from where we live to get to it. And so many mums go, oh, because we'll take two cars when we drive down there because we've got the dog, we've got the kids, we've got luggage, it doesn't all fit in one car. And people are like, who takes the kids?

And I'm like, usually, Matt, and they go, three hours in the car by yourself. Like, that's fucking amazing. And I'm like, isn't it crazy that this is what we fantasize about? Laura's on real estate. She goes, baby, I found a house in Tasmania. I think I'm going to put in for it. How did it affect your husband? He had some pretty serious mental health, you know, his own challenges.

But he didn't feel like he could talk about it because I was in the throes of postpartum depression. Like, I think that fathers and, you know, other parents, they may feel really similar. I think that's a really common experience for the partners because they're like, well, the focus is on the mother and looking after her, but who looks after the dad? So, yeah, he really struggled. And understandably, you know, my daughter also wasn't a great sleeper. We're up every 90 minutes. And he felt like, I want to help, but I just can't.

I don't have the boobs. I don't have that soothing that you have. and biologically I know that's true but I was like but you should you know like I just wish that you could so yeah I think fathers really go under the radar it's a one in ten chance that a father can be diagnosed with depression but I actually think it's not screened enough I think that would be much higher do they call it postpartum depression for men or is it just called something else because obviously they don't have the hormone changes that go along with that yeah it's actually called paternal postpartum depression but so it's it's distinct from

postpartum depression because that is very you know centric around mothers and the hormone shift but it's notwithstanding that it is still really real with any big adjustment right like that is such a vulnerable time for anyone to go through a big life adjustment so the fathers for people who are non-binary you know people who don't go down the typical path of conception through IVF through adoption that's all really important to talk about it is such a and it's unfortunately not really being researched at the moment I guess this is like I understand it but there is a level where you're like can't women just have one thing like we birthed the thing like we understand it's a huge life change for men of course it is and of course they're also going to be woken up and

have those feelings but there's a part of it it's like of course they need to be looked after but at the end of the day it's it's a woman's body and actually like the physiological changes that are attached to it and yeah but i also think that's kind of part of the problem that mentality because i do think that a lot of men don't speak about it and like you know when your partners had such a personality shift because they're struggling as well and then you also have a baby waking you up every 90 minutes and you have a wife who's screaming and crying all the time it's like it's really hard to come home and be the stable person in that environment for potentially years and still show up unaffected so I don't disagree with that but I still stand by just give one thing

you mentioned to us before we started recording that like it's kind of gone in a bit of a cycle for you guys you've had this time in terms of it being your mental health being at the forefront of the relationship and the conversation and now your partner's stepped forward and being like hey I'm also haven't been coping and so you kind of like passed the baton in terms of like you know the self-care aspect absolutely because really I mean one of you needs to be stable like unfortunately it sucks but one of you does need to to step up and be that stable person particularly for a lot of fathers they are also the financial you know stability as well and so there's a lot of pressure on fathers so now you know I've gone through therapy and you know I feel

like I'm at a really good spot now I almost feel like of course I want to support you of course it's your time of course you're allowed to fall apart because you've had to hold it together for a really long time yeah what's the like what characterizes someone who is high functioning with postpartum depression because you kind of described yourself as that in the first place what is the difference? There's not a lot of narrative around I mean it's not an official diagnosis high functioning postpartum depression but there is something called high functioning depression and it actually is at odds with what typical postpartum depression looks like which is why it's actually really hard to pick up and a lot of the mums I've worked with now I have that

in the back of my mind of you look like you're coping but actually you're probably not you're using functionality being high functioning as a bit of a mask because really functioning is a way of coping with the loss of control so you know I went back to work at three months I you know run a couple of businesses I was training for a marathon which you know thanks Britt you've actually just psychoanalyzed you know I was speaking conferences you know I look like I was doing it all and within my friendship group I'm the you know I'm the token therapist so I was like supporting friends who were going through a postpartum I was the one that was checking in I would they'd get to their kind of baby blue mark and I'd be like just want to check in to see how

you're going or the four month regression so I felt like I was doing all the things you know I actually looked different to what you would see a typical mother going through postpartum looking like I was getting out of bed I was doing all the things yeah and yet actually I was using that to cope I was so deeply I was so disconnected on the inside I was so deeply empty and and I think that that went under the radar that's why I invalidated myself for a really long time it is giving Laura burn i am getting characteristics of laura burn i'm gonna check on you every week potentially do live in denial but that's okay yeah and i think that's interesting too because maybe for you specifically on top of like every other feeling that you had and navigating it on your

own you are aground with your job for trauma dumping like your job all day is to take on other people's you know and stresses and depression and problems what are some of the feelings that women would feel when they're experiencing postpartum depression that they might not have ever felt before in terms of intrusive thoughts or levels of anxiety when they've never had an anxiety attack in their life yeah intrusive thoughts are a really big one intrusive thoughts are just like no other postpartum postpartum rage postpartum depletion just feeling perpetually exhausted, a lot of body image concerns will come up because, you know, even if you've had a pretty healthy body image, like history body image, you know, pregnancy

throws everything out the window, doesn't it? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And then this idea to bounce back as well. So yeah, a lot of anxiety, a lot of depression and sleep deprivation, you're right, it is such a slow form of torture. And what that can do to your cognitive functioning, it just shuts you off from just being out of cope with daily life. So women who are you know high functioning high achieving they go from doing it all to just being like I can't even get the words out you know I can't even focus on the shopping list and that is so that is such a significant change in someone's life and of course you're going to experience depression or anxiety from that. Is there a thing I mean we've spoken heaps about

postpartum depression and I'm not sure if this is your field of study as well but postpartum psychosis yeah and what is the difference between the two? So postpartum psychosis is almost when I mean, looking at it from a spectrum, we've got, you know, postpartum depression there and postpartum psychosis is where a lot of those symptoms are intensified even further. So it's a signal that postpartum depression likely has gone untreated, but it doesn't necessarily come from postpartum depression on its own. Postpartum psychosis is where, particularly for women who are sleep deprived and who have a history of bipolar and depression, are more likely to experience psychosis.

So what that looks like is starting to disconnect from reality. So it can be episodes of hallucinations and it can be, you know, hearing voices, everything that we know about psychosis. It's a total disconnect from reality. And that's a really, that's really serious. So frightening. Really, really scary. What did social media do for you in this time in terms of, did you find it a place of support

or a place that exacerbated the dark feelings that you've got? You know, we've got this comparison culture. You're looking at all the other mums who are turning up and having this perfect life and the perfect balanced back body and we don't know if it's real did you find that to be a really detrimental tool or a helpful tool for you yeah really detrimental and a lot of mums that I work with agree but also you know obviously as a psychologist I follow a lot of psychologist pages and I think that made it a lot worse as well because I was following a lot of psychologists who are mums and a lot of you know attachment pages and I just kept getting inundated with what's the

right way to parent from an attachment framework I was like I should know this right like this is my bread and butter and I think it made it so much worse for me I actually just had to learn to disconnect and actually I remember one night where as you do as you start to go on a journey of self-diagnosis I was like reddit I just need someone on reddit to give me permission that it's okay am I the arsehole I don't like being a mom I don't want my kids something I want to talk to about and I want to be clear because I don't want you to think as though I feel like it's a very loaded question but one thing we don't get to speak about is regret I think you make a choice to be a mum that choice is not one you can take back on you can't turn around and go well that

didn't work out for me I guess I'll put this kid up for adoption leave it at the foster pound like my biggest fear but it is something that some women experience and you know they it doesn't mean that they're not great mums and they can't continue to be good mums but they didn't find motherhood to be the joy or the self-fulfilling thing that they were expecting it to be all along is this something that you have patients present with and how do you work through these feelings yeah it's actually really common it's just not spoken about in a lot of the work that I do I often find I need to name it first because not a lot of clients will put that information forward and let them know that it's okay to feel regret it doesn't mean that you're a bad mother it doesn't

mean you don't you don't love your child often regret is rooted in yearning for what used to be yearning for flexibility, autonomy, power over your life. And I think motherhood can really impact on those things. So regrets are really, really common feeling with not just postpartum depression, but just in motherhood, in matrescence. It's something that really impacts so many mums, but there is so much taboo around it. Like how often have you heard someone say, I really regret? No, there's a random person that says it in an Instagram post and you're like, are your kids reading that? It's funny, Lauren, I talk about it all the time because I'm on this quest to find out if I should have kids or not and I teeter all the time and we like we have

this conversation like off podcasts like just as friends and I'm like I just don't believe I don't think people are talking about it enough I don't believe there's not more mums out there that regret it I just know that they don't feel comfortable in talking about it and exactly what you said regret doesn't mean you don't love your child and it doesn't mean I guess you even wish you didn't have them but there is a feeling of like if I could go back would I do it again and a lot of people say no yeah yeah and it's it's just I think it's one of those things and it's interesting to hear you say it from the other side like you know behind the closed doors is that a lot of women are feeling it and it's okay to feel it if you're listening right now yeah and

because people aren't talking about it the people that do feel it feel really alone and feel all the guilt and the shame and there's already so much guilt and shame around being a mother I remember I had this moment of what have I done you know do I regret becoming a mom and you're right two things can be true you can love your child you can you know really enjoy the time with them and miss the old life and think if I went back would I do things differently two things can be true it's not one or the other and I think regret can live with love regret can live with bonding and love and I love this part of me, but I also really miss the part of me that had freedom, you know, that connected with my work-life identity that, you know, wanted to travel. And it's allowing two

things to be true because regret is instantly met with shame, right? I shouldn't be thinking this. I think the word you just used that I gravitate to that I like, and I think is really like representative of the experience, but it's autonomy. Like it's your own autonomy of your body and your life is because you don't live for you anymore. You don't live for your partner anymore you live for this this child that you need to keep alive and every decision you make for the rest of your life is for that child that's a really big weight for somebody to feel when last week they didn't have to feel it and then all of a sudden you're adapting to this the fact that you don't really in a way own your life your life well I'm trying not to be so doom

and gloom but it is and I think we really under I don't want to say undersell it but I don't think we speak about it enough and maybe that's a question like your expectation of motherhood before you went to pregnancy and the way people talk about it and the way you know the things you've read about it do you think you were prepared enough when you went into mother when you became a mother or do you think we're not talking about it in the right way and like actually pulling back the curtain yeah I definitely was not prepared and that's saying something for someone who has had a lot of knowledge and you know understanding into motherhood so I can imagine for people who don't have as much understanding into matrescence and motherhood. I think there's

this theory of the front stage and the backstage of motherhood. The front stage is this perfect mother, what we present to the world. I'm happy, I'm grateful, I'm appreciative. But then the backstage is this kind of darkness. I don't feel like I can talk about actually how I'm really feeling in that I regret having children or I'm not happy or I just don't love the newborn bubble or I don't love this age. And that's so okay. I also think that the spectrum is so vast because there are people who have children and they're like this is what i was put on earth to do and to be that that version of motherhood exists as well and then there's the version of motherhood where they're like fuck that that newborn stage was wild bit of gear but toddlers are great you

know and i think that it is so varied people's experience of it how they show up in motherhood also the support that they receive whether they have a you know a dead shit partner who does nothing and they're doing everything or they have a partner who shows up in parody like all of these things will impact your experience of being a mom. So you're never going to be able to have one conversation or read everybody else's motherhood journeys and be like, aha, I know that if I have kids, I'll regret it. Or I know if I have kids, I'm going to love it because you just don't know. It's, it's truly something that you will not know the answer to until you do it yourself. Yeah. And also you might have a baby that sleeps 12 hours a night, one that's up every

90 minutes or every 60 minutes or whatever else. What are people that might think that they are in the throes of postnatal depression now what do you suggest they do one of my best tips is if you're asking yourself the question uh do I have postpartum depression that's the sign you know because of how layered motherhood is there's this shame there's this guilt around not coping but I think for so many mothers that I speak to the fact that they have are asking you know they often say I don't know do I have postpartum depression and I think nine times out of ten if they've asked themselves the question it they do it's like if you ask like do you think he likes me he probably doesn't like if you're asking that question I would say if you're googling should I break up

with him the answer is yes yeah exactly it's very similar usually you know the answer you're on reddit you know you probably you know I need to have a chat but you know there's that and I think it's just the not coping it's it's if you're really struggling day to day and I don't mean as though you're in bed every day I mean if you're getting into bed at night time and thinking oh I'm dreading the next day or I'm really struggling at the moment when will this end even if you don't meet criteria for postpartum depression that is still a really important time to reach out and I always think and I have this like crazy metaphor in that if I was sitting with a client and they were you know sitting across from me and they're saying I'm really struggling my body image I hate

my partner I'm feeling so much rage and I'm feeling suicidal and I'm so angry and I'm so low And I'd be like, oh my gosh, you know, the red flags would be going off my mind and, you know, wanting to make sure that they're okay. But as soon as you put this cloak of motherhood on, it's like, oh, well, it's normal. Welcome to the club. Yeah. Oh, that sucks. It's so true.

What are some of the intrusive thoughts that women experience that, you know, your patients experience or tell you about? Yeah. So intrusive thoughts exist because of what's happening in your mind to try and keep your baby safe. So everything you thought about the world as being safe totally switches when you have a baby. It can be anything, and for a lot of women it's about baby safety

or doing something wrong. All the time. I don't know a single mum who doesn't have interesting thoughts. I was laying in bed the other day, literally just laying in bed, and then I was thinking it was nighttime and my kids are safe in their own beds, and I was thinking about the kids going because they sometimes play at the front of our house, which is a very safe area.

It's locked off. but I was like but if the gate was open and Lola went down to the street and then a soccer ball went out and then I just had this visual image of her being hit by a car and then couldn't stop thinking about Lola being hit by a car and like this is the thing you just have this loop cycle of an absolute catastrophe and it's because now I will never let them play out the front because now I've just created this thing in my head where Lola's gonna get hit by a car yeah it's crazy and it just came from nowhere I came from I was literally in bed not thinking about anything and then I thought of a soccer ball and then I thought two seconds later

I'm watching this play on loop in my head. And it's like traumatising. Yeah. Because you're visualising it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You see it happen. You see it, yeah. It's awful.

It is awful. And a lot of it tends to be around what if I drop my baby or what if I remember when I was walking once I was like, oh, my God, there's so many tree branches up there. And it was windy and I was thinking, oh, my God, I could die. She could die. Like all those things that you just put trust in in the world, everything comes into question.

So anything. It could be accidentally hurting your baby. but even more going to the other end of it where you know if you're holding a kitchen knife you think what if I accidentally stabbed my baby like really quite intense thoughts and I really want to remind anyone listening this is not an indication that it will happen at all or it's not an indication that you want something to happen there's this myth that the more I think about it the more I'm manifesting it that is not true it actually is a sign of that what your brain is trying to do is to stop that from happening it's trying to make you know for example the

soccer ball you're trying to stop that from happening and doing everything you can And that's obviously like Lola started playing soccer on the weekend. So it's now you're in that next chapter and you're imagining what would happen. But it also just doesn't stop. You know, that's the thing. I think obviously it's worse when you're a new mom and you have newborn babies. You know, you have those moments where you wake up and you would have been breastfeeding. You put the baby back in the bassinet and you wake up and you're like, where's my baby?

And you're like looking in the bed for your kid. Like it's the weirdest feeling. I think most moms have experienced it. And I mean, I guess for some people, like it lessens in intensity, but it never just goes away. You never like, this is just a whole new worry that exists within your brain. It just levels up. Yeah, totally. So they've clocked that they've got these feelings.

And then do you recommend going straight to a GP? Do you recommend going to see a therapist or a psychologist? What's your steps? I think first port of call a GP is fantastic. You know, if you have a really supportive GP, they'll be really understanding. They'll probably do some screeners with you and ask you some questions. You can absolutely go to a psychologist. it depends also on you know for a lot of mothers financial situations can really a barrier to

accessing support so the gidget foundation and panda organization they offer free counseling which is fantastic so that's always a step you can take or even just researching a bit more information if you don't feel ready to take that step just researching and starting to get you know your head around what is it and this could be me but yeah your gp can give you a referral for a psychologist you can get rebates from that as well and i guess just maybe making sure those people around you know that you're struggling or that you need help like your friends or your family your partner especially if you don't have the resources to go and maybe seek help immediately obviously a GP you absolutely can that you can go to a free GP but I guess just making sure somebody

in your life knows and just letting you're right letting people in is often the hardest because it letting people in might be acknowledging that I'm not coping and for so many mums that feels really hard to come to terms with and also asking them to do some research too can be really helpful How do you feel about, and I guess, what's the information or the stats behind medication when you are in the throes of that? Can you be taking medication when you're breastfeeding? Talk to us about that option for people that might need more help than just therapy and support. Yeah, medication is a wonderful tool to have in your toolkit. It shouldn't be used for everything.

I think in conjunction with lifestyle and therapy and supports, it's wonderful. there are certainly some medications you can take while breastfeeding and your doctor will be able to help you out with that because you also might be taking other medications that you know have an interplay there so and it's really important that you do and your doctor will likely have a conversation with you about medication yeah i think as well in terms of not just the routes to take but like the things that you need from a self-preservation perspective i think we put a lot of pressures on ourself like the breastfeeding conversation people put so much pressure on themselves to breastfeed because it's you know it's what's going to be best for the baby but

if it's not best for you and your mental health, I kind of think like make decisions that are also best holistically for both of you. And for Matt and I personally, I know that the best decision I made was when Lola went onto a bottle and she went onto a bottle early. And it was because I wasn't the one having to do everything. Yeah. Well, I wasn't coping and it meant in the nighttime, Matt was feeding her and it was just a sacrifice that we made. And it made such a massive difference to me. And then there was a part of me that was like, but don't tell anyone. Cause then people will judge that you took her off you put her on a bottle at two and a half months and I was like well I literally would not have been able to cope otherwise so and it makes you a better parent for

the rest of your parenting and for my other kid as well that was also yeah totally I mean also like do whatever you want I'm not here telling people how they should or shouldn't like you know take care of their kids but for me it was something that massively helped and I think it probably prevented things from getting a lot worse for me for the trajectory that I was on with Lola and so I guess now just to finish it you said you were like for want of a better word mostly out the other side where the sun is shining again and you're hearing the birds again and you feel happier but not quite you still have your down days I'm assuming that that is very common when you come out of something like this it's not like you're like I woke up and I'm good again really really

common because a lot of the narrative online actually I was researching only a couple months ago for a client a lot of the narrative is I'm through it and everything's back to normal and now I know what to do for my next pregnancy. And that is not the case at all. You may be at risk if you were to have another child for developing postnatal depression and you're still going to have your days. You're still going to have your days of dread and shame and guilt of I'm not doing the right thing. I'm not feeding well or they're not sleeping well. And I just really want to remind anyone listening that even if you are having more good days, that's fantastic. But just because you might have a bad day or a couple of bad days or a week or whatever,

that is a really normal response to the intense struggles of motherhood that is actually a really understandable response for everything you've been through and your body has been through like a turbulent roller coaster that we just expect to be back to normal my to get back to my level of normal sleep I don't know what you call it sleep debt like I was in a lot of sleep debt it's almost taking like you know it's been two months now and I'm still not out of that sleep debt yet I mean the last thing I kind of want to say on this is when you have really little kids and you haven't kind of you know I'm talking newborn and under two you feel like it's going to be that state of motherhood forever like when you're in the trenches the trenches feel like

they never ever ever are going to kind of you're never going to climb out of them and I think now looking back on that experience for myself if you'd asked me after Lola whether we would have a third I would have said no fucking way like it's too hard no fucking way but now we have a six-year-old and almost five-year-old and parenting is so easy so we're here to fuck it up again but no but it's really hard to see how the different phases are going to be and every time I see anything on social media like I saw I saw a thing the other day and it got me so riled up and it was like a new mom who had a baby and she's like you know when you say to a toddler mom like oh this is really hard and they're like we'll wait until they're toddlers and I'm like no not like

for me nothing was harder than newborn phase nothing was harder than having little babies and of course parenting is still challenging at different ages I'm not discrediting anyone's experience around parenting but my experience parenting a four-year-old and a five-year-old is a shit ton easier than parenting a newborn baby and or even like not even you were like six months or four months going through that regression and I think like whatever stage of that you're in it's an impermanent stage as well and knowing that is very good for your sense of self and like if this is terrible it's not going to be like this forever I know and I feel like we're getting even deeper now but I just think those people can't ever know that because they

haven't done it yet so it's like I feel like when someone is saying I just feel like I'll never get out of this I think the answer is to just listen yes you know because you can say to them it'll get better but for them they're so deep in life but the reason why I say it is because I feel like the narrative online is like motherhood doesn't get any easier it just gets harder you think this is hard problem yeah when they're big like little people little problems big kids big problem it's like it's not like let's stop terrorizing motherhood it's not always I know it's there's hard parts to it but it's not always that version and like you can come out through the other side and be like oh my god that postpartum depression that parenting of small children was horrifying

and now it's feeling fun and I guess like that it's like I don't want to lean into the fear that it's just always going to be in a certain static space yeah and I think that comes back to the fact that like no parenting journey is ever going to be the same as somebody else's because there are peoples whose the newborn stage is the best ever because they've got a problem child or something's happened you know like totally like this they've got an 18 year old drug addict and they're like fuck their child is not easier when it's running around or when it can speak you know so it's like i guess it's just this it comes back to it seems so basic but like don't be judging another parent's journey or feeling yeah and just on that i think that's a really good reminder when you're talking

to someone who might be experiencing postpartum depression or just someone who's struggling which is going to be 100 of mothers right is that there's this common narrative i remember feeling like this of you know someone saying oh me too you know that happened to me and while it was actually really help like they're trying to be really helpful i immediately felt like well then maybe I shouldn't be struggling you know they'd say like oh my baby struggled as well or I struggled feeding I thought oh oh then everyone do this yeah yeah then I felt instantly invalidated because I was like oh then what am I getting upset about and so it's coming from a really beautiful place so what I really recommend is if you are talking to someone who's struggling is

try not to offer those stories or anecdotes unless it's asked for oh yeah try and just yeah be that that space for them and it is helpful sometimes I'm not minimizing that but wait until they ask you know how did you go with this or did you experience this because for the most part what people want to hear what mothers want to hear is like that really sucks and I'm so sorry this is happening like just tell me about it like that that is the one of the most powerful things you can do is just hold space and see I always say sit on the ledge with them they're sitting on the ledge just sit down pull them off sit down next to them slowly back away slowly hug them let's hug over here yeah Kat thanks so much for coming and being part of the podcast like I said

It's a conversation that we've been wanting to have for ages and we weren't really sure how to do it, whether we had someone on at the start that was like comes from the clinical side and then someone on the end who comes from the personal experience side. We just thought if Laura, we waited because we're like, Laura's going to keep having kids, eventually she'll have depression and then she can talk about it from herself.

But she just hasn't got there yet. Subtle foreshadowing. Yeah. Thanks, Kat. We've really enjoyed it. Oh, you're so welcome. You know, I have this quote of shame dies when stories are told in safe places.

So I really appreciate you taking the time to have a space that is so safe to do so and really funny. as well. And we will put, Kat mentioned some links that are some free support places that you can go to. We're going to put all of those in our show notes and any other links to things that we think could help you. Thank you. Thank you.