Life Uncut - Why Is Everyone Craving “Chalant Dating?” Uncut with Logan Ury

Episode Date: December 18, 2025

We’ve done a lot of episodes about dating in the past. We’ve actually done a few about dating with today’s guest! But we’ve recently had a bit of feedback that some of you in the dating scene are really struggling to find the motivation to keep dating at the moment. Some of you feel exhausted. Others feel a bit hopeless, and it turns out, you’re not alone. There has been a big cultural shift in what women want when it comes to dating and it’s got a trendy new name - “chalant dating”.To break it down with us we have friend of the podcast Logan Ury here! Logan is a Harvard trained behavioural scientist, dating expert, author, host of Netflix’s“The Later Daters,” and Hinge's lead Relationship Scientist. Logan has spent years and years unpacking the science behind dating and finding successful relationships.  We speak about: The dating trends that we’re going to see in 2026 What is chalant dating? Why do we want chalant dating more than what a potential future partner might earn or even look like? Why there seems to be a mismatch in expectations between men and women The toilet paper test The actual green flags around planning energy we should look for What are the ‘successful’ people doing on dating apps at the moment? Do you feel like you’re ‘undateable?’ The steps you can take if you’re feeling burnout from dating The switch from a ‘soulmate’ mindset to a ‘work it out’ mindset How AI will change the dating landscape Summer dating trends, cuffing season and what we tend to see when it gets colder The most popular day of the year on dating apps is coming up really soon You can find more from Logan at her website and her Instagram You can read the whole report from Hinge here  You can find some of our previous episodes with Logan cloud And here You can watch us on Youtube Find us on Instagram Join us on tiktok Or join the Facebook Discussion Group Hosted by Britt Hockley & Keeshia Pettit  Produced by Keeshia Pettit Video Produced by Vanessa Beckford Recorded on Cammeraygal Land Tell your mum, tell your dad, tell your dog, tell your friend and share the love because WE LOVE LOVE! XxSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This episode was recorded on Camaragal land. Hi guys, and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Brittany. And I'm Keisha. And look, I think the number one thing that we would tend to talk about on Life Uncut over the last six years is dating. And we've done a lot of episodes about different aspects of dating. We've actually even done a couple of episodes with today's guest about dating. But we keep on getting the same feedback that some of you in the dating scene at the moment, you're really struggling to find that motivation to keep on dating. Well, it can get very exhausting and very repetitive and very monotonous and very disheartening. And I think

that if you're listening and you're one of these people who are just like, I'm starting to feel really hopeless. Turns out you are absolutely not alone. There's been a really big cultural shift in what women want out of dating. And there's even a trendy new term to go along with it. It is called Chalant Dating. Research shows that women care a whole lot more about Chalant Dating than what they care about what a future partner might earn or even what they might look like. So joining us today to break it down is friend of the podcast, Logan Urie. Logan is a Harvard trained behavioral scientist, a dating expert, an author, host of Netflix's The Later Daters, and Hinge's lead relationship scientist. Logan has spent years and years unpacking

at the science behind dating and finding successful relationships. And Logan, I actually think we were talking about this just before. I think you are the most frequented guest on a Life Uncut production. This is your fourth time. I made it. Mom, I made it. A hundred. And do you know what? What I want to say here is, Logan, you were just doing some things with Khloe Kardashian, which is absolutely huge, but we had you first. So just on record, we had you for five years ago. Yeah, you scooped Chloe. Sorry, Chloe, get in line. Honestly, we need to do our next one in person. We need to do like a live event or I got to make my way to you. Oh, please. Like, let's lock that in. If you come to Australia, we will 100%. We'll record a

whole series with you, Logan. But today's episode is not just for people who are single, who are in the dating landscape. We're also going to unpack how almost all of us have fallen into autopilot and what we can do to make our relationships feel a lot more satisfying. And I want to start, Logan, by saying your dedication is to tracking and predicting trends in dating. What has happened, what is happening, what's going to happen. What are you seeing for, I guess, I want to say, I guess, 2026, like what cultural change have you seen now as we come into the end of 2025?

Yeah, so thank you both so much for having me. I'm glad I can take this award as most frequent guest. we don't actually have an award for you. We should. Oh no. Okay. It's not too late. It's not too late. I'm just thrilled to be talking about this topic in particular because it's something really near and dear to my heart, which is this idea of chalant dating. People are really looking for someone who puts in effort, who's intentional, who's a planner, who really puts that effort in. And I feel like personally, and I want to hear your perspective, like I'm just sick of all the nonchalant dating of people being afraid to be cringe afraid of rejection afraid

of getting hurt and really just not being willing to try and chalant dating is about kind of willing to make that risk because love is worth it and so I love the fact that people are really looking for someone who's a planner and who puts the effort in and isn't you know too cool for school I mean I definitely, I know you say you want to get our perspective. I will talk about some stuff. I have some friends that are like deep in the throes of it. But before we do, just tell us what is chalant dating? I'm assuming it's the opposite of nonchalant. Exactly. Yeah. So at Hinge, we noticed there was this call on social media for people to be more chalant. And so chalant dating is really looking for someone who's intentional, who puts in effort, someone who

makes a plan and follows through. And as I said, it's really a backlash to a trend of nonchalant dating where people were afraid to take a chance or seem uncool and they weren't putting the effort in. And so I'm really happy to see the pendulum swinging back in this direction. I feel like in Australia, like we're kind of known for being the laid back culture. We're very kind of jovial. And I would say that in my experience, most Australians, when it comes to dating, particularly straight men take nonchalance to a whole new level like we speak about this all the time in the podcast Brit's obsessed with foreigners we always knew she was going to end up with a foreigner yeah I married a Swiss but I feel as though there's something specific about the Australian culture

that it's almost like it was marketed almost like it was endearing for these Aussie men to be really laid back and not really care and yada yada what do you think led to this kind of pushback of going we don't want this laid back way. I don't want to be wondering whether you're into me. Was it the fact that that was cool or would you think that people just got lazy? So I'm not an expert necessarily on exactly the scene in Australia, but I can tell you what I'm seeing. Tell us what's wrong with our country, Logan. No, I want to hear more about that. I mean, I would just say like in general, kind of speaking globally trends that I've been seeing for a long time. I think that with Gen Z in particular, there's sort of a feeling of the worst thing

you can be is cringe yeah and so there's almost it's almost as if people are allergic to earnestness and so i remember i was doing some gen z research and um you know there's a hinge prompt like one thing i want to do this year and he put die oh and i was like what that's such a weird prompt response he's like no gen z girls love it because like it's so sarcastic and i was like okay i'm not like totally getting the humor here and i just feel like it was like you know maybe like someone else would have put like run my first marathon or like look at it learn how to cook French food and he was like killing it on hinge writing die and so I just feel like there has been this feeling of like the less you seem to care the cooler you are and now I think people are just like you know what

I actually do want someone to care about me and I was really reflecting on this when we did the hinge date and I was thinking about like with my husband we've been together for over 10 years and like some of the things he does that make me feel so good are when I'm leaving the house early in the morning for a flight. And he puts a piece of tape on the doorknob. That's like, don't forget your lunch. It's in the fridge. And like, just things like that. It's like, it's so small, but it's like the effort of like thinking about you. I want to make your life better. And like, I put this small thing out into the world to show you that I care. And like, who doesn't want that? I think it's so romantic. And so I think that everyone, maybe since the pandemic has been

playing this game of, you know, the battle of who can care less. And now I think people are like, low-key like I care and I want you to care too yeah and I think like going back to Australia it would be interesting for you guys there to study Australia as as a dating scene and I say that because it's not just Australians women that feel it like Australian women will all tell you that men don't put the effort in that men are too laid back I don't want a blanket statement there are some incredible Australian men obviously but as a whole I think it's okay to say that we are very very laid back and we will say to you let's go on a date right like we'll say hey want to catch up first want to hang out on the weekend and you'll say yep and they'll say okay

we'll let you we'll let you know closer and then it'll be like the day of and then they'll say hey like I'm just going to hang out with my friends like nothing's you don't ever feel like any effort is being put in in Australia and they don't see that as doing anything wrong they just see that as like that's that's our Australian landscape and it's not just us you'll see women come from America and women come from the UK and they all say the same thing they're like what is with the men here like no one approaches me when I go out no one offers to take me out no one asks me out no one buys me a drink when they do ask me out it's like hey like want to maybe go for a swim for half an hour it's a really weird dating scene here and going back to what you were just saying

about there's just like the least amount of effort put in my friend just told me this literally three hours ago she was talking to a guy online and they were they made the big move to whatsapp you know was like hey let's like take this offline swap numbers and the first thing like her i'm just going to change her name her name is sarah the first thing that he wrote he was like hey ellen hey hey ellen how's your weekend and and she's like close sorry it's sarah and he was like that's the most basic thing close but not close enough just the name and then he didn't even care he goes oh whatsapp told me it was a different name and she's like no it didn't you're just obviously dating multiple people at once which is fine but that's and then he's like oh yeah

but that's the level of like no fucks given of nonchalantness it's interesting to think about like what is just dating today and what is dating in australia and so it sounds like you think australian guys in particular are very nonchalant would you also say that it's just an australian culture thing and that australian women are also more laid back i mean these are obviously huge generalizations? I think it would be, I mean, again, a generalization. I think it's that we have been conditioned to expect that this is the landscape. Like I think a lot of women that I talk to, and especially when I was in the dating world, I wanted the effort, but I didn't want to seem high maintenance. And I didn't want to seem like I was expecting the world from someone that

I didn't really know, because I thought that that would be a turnoff. Or at the point where we just take the wrong name. We're like, I'll take it. I'll be honest. You can call me whatever you want for the rest of our relationship. But something I thought that was really interesting that you guys found in this hinge report that you did about chalant dating was that people are now prioritizing this effort ahead of other things. So what are some of the things that they're saying that they would prefer this effort instead of? Right. This was a really fascinating thing. And so I think the first thing that I wanted to talk about was just this idea of chalant dating, that it's a backlash to people not caring and people want to have effort. But then we really

get to this question of why. I think a big reason why we're seeing this, especially from straight women is that culturally things have really shifted. And so if you think about a lot of human history, you know, women really look to men to be the providers. Like they couldn't work outside of the home, like in the United States, like women couldn't get their own credit card without a male family member or husband, like until the late seventies, like women were really, you know, they didn't have the same opportunities and now women have risen up. And in many ways, that's amazing. And so women are making more money, they're making, you know, close to or as much of in some situations more than men. And so this idea of the man needing to be the provider

has changed, because a lot of women are their own providers. And then it sort of becomes, well, if you're not going to be my provider, what is your role in my life? And I think women are raising the bar. And they're saying, I want more from you, like, I want you to have that planner energy, I want you to be emotionally available and open. And so I think we're really seeing this shift where the dating, the dating playbook, the dating trends have not caught up with the data of men and women being more equal in the workplace and in other parts of our lives. Do you think that men are struggling with what it means to be a modern man? Like, you know, if so many of us women are saying, we don't need you to financially provide for us anymore,

we actually want this deeper emotional connection and you need to come to the table in other ways. do you think that they're struggling to know what their role is in the dating world? Yeah, that's definitely something that I'm seeing. I'm seeing it on podcasts. I'm seeing it in conversations with friends. I'm seeing it with coaching clients that I have, and I'm seeing it in the data. There's this sense of, you know, for many, many years, and this is a quote from one of my friends. He's like, we were all born being taught how to catch a lion and our whole lives we've been taught how to catch a lion. And that means being a provider. And now women are saying, oh, we can catch our own lion. We need you to catch a tiger, which is being emotionally

available and supporting us in all these ways. And the guys are like, what? I don't know how to catch a tiger. And so I think for them, they feel like they're less sure about who they need to be. It's less clear to them than it probably was for their father and grandfather and many generations back what it means to be a man. And so I think we're in that uncomfortable place where people are figuring out what modern gender role means. And I think that it's caused a lot of friction and discomfort for people. How is it that planner energy would actually help them in the dating world? And what is planner energy that women seem to be wanting? Yeah. So what we found in our data is that 72% of women said that they care more about a potential partner putting an

effort in building a relationship than having a higher income than them. And so I think this all kind of goes back to it. It's like, I want a partner. I want somebody who says, I'm going to take care of this and you take care of this. I'm going to have someone who, you know, sits me down and says, Hey, like this isn't working. I want to talk about this. And I think that as we said before, because women can more provide for themselves, they're looking for something else. They're looking for the emotional energy and they're looking for the effort. And that's part of what the planner energy is. And I feel this way strongly. I don't know if you feel this way in your relationship that I really do do all the planning. I feel like I plan all the trips. I plan

all the date nights. Now we have a daughter, I feel like I plan a lot of that. And my husband does a lot of things for our relationship. But it's not really planning energy. And that's something that moms talk about a lot, like the emotional labor and the mental load of like carrying all of this. And I think so much of planning energy falls on women. And that's why it's so meaningful. And it's very attractive when guys do have that planner energy, because it's like taking the load off of us. So for example, I think one of the reasons why there's a few reasons, but I think one of the reasons why we still have engagements where the man proposes to the woman is because part of what's romantic about that is the guy actually putting the plan

into action, having the planner energy and be like, I gathered your friends and I brought them together and I texted your sister for your ring size and I figured it out. And it's like, there's a lot of ways to get engaged. But I think a lot of the ways that we talk about are this very particular kind of planner energy from the guy. And I think it's because women feel like a lot of times the planner energy falls on them. And also it's a sign of how much you like me. It's like, are you willing to spend 30 minutes looking up restaurants and finding one close to my apartment and something, the kind of food that I like, like that sort of effort intentionality showing that you care goes so far. And I feel like you hear these guys like, Oh, like women want you

to fly them to the moon women want everything like they want they want this and that it's like we just want you to like know the name of our best friend put some effort into the date and be a little thoughtful just know our name yeah it's wild but that is like no my name the bar is so low but it's interesting and it's frustrating because the bar is so low logan like it's like really funny it's like somebody comes in a guy comes in and he's like hey i've spent 20 minutes planning dinner and you're like you tell your friends right you're like it's so thoughtful like he went out of his way to find it sorry fuck I do that every day all day like that's what I'm doing you know I think that this extends though and I was actually having this conversation with

a girlfriend of mine the other day who has just moved in with her boyfriend and what was so interesting about it is that I think it's actually the same behavior that you can look for in the early stages of dating someone who's going to be willing to look up a restaurant and make a reservation is the type of person, and this was what our conversation was about, who is also going to notice when you're getting low on toilet paper and when you need to restock the washing detergent and that kind of forward thinking mentality of the mental load doesn't all need to be on you. And I kind of joked with her that something I was careful about in my own relationship was that when we moved in together, I didn't want to naturally assume to be the person who always needed to

order the bin bags or know when supplies for the house were going to run out and I said to her I was like I know it's a little bit it's a tiny bit manipulative but I want you to put a toilet roll aside somewhere like in your underwear drawer somewhere that he doesn't go you've been on this toilet roll some people need to run out of toilet paper before they realize oh my partner isn't always going to be the one who makes sure that I have this shit sorted like I also need to take accountability and responsibility within their house and I know it sounds ridiculous but I was like for some men in particular and I could be stereotyping and I probably am I think that they actually need to get the consequence of not having this planning energy you need to have shit on your

ass to know what you've got at home you need to take a shower before you realize I think this has viral potential the toilet paper test it's funny because Keisha doesn't care if he comes home at night. She just wants to know this toilet paper. How did it go for your friend? I mean, I'll check him with her and see, but I just wanted to make sure that she wasn't going to be the one assuming all of the mental load in their relationship. And I think that this is really related to what women are saying that they want in dating now. They just want, they, we don't want these extravagant $600 dinners with a helicopter ride. We want those too, but we want the toilet paper so that we can go to the helicopter. I just want you to know that my favorite food might be Italian. And so you've

thought about the cool Italian places in our neighborhood that we could go to? I think about this topic a lot and it's not like I think every single activity in a partnership has to be shared. I think sometimes you can divide and conquer. So like, for example, I like doing laundry. It doesn't bother me. I do all of the laundry. And then my husband does all this stuff related to our baby's diapers. And like, I don't even know where he gets them from. Like he's just in charge of that. And so I do think sometimes division of labor is great, but what you're saying about the toilet paper is so true, which is, this is a sign of how somebody will be in the future. And so I think so many times people are looking for green flags that are really just how hot someone is,

like, how tall are they? Or how much money do they have? Or this and that about their physical appearance. And I'm like, No, look for green flag around planning energy, look for the green flags around, they care about you, and they want to put effort in, they are able to think in advance, They can make a plan B if it's going to rain. Like those are the things that are sexy to me, especially at this stage of life where I'm like, that's what really matters on a weekly basis. Like in a marriage, when you have kids, it's like, is this person also thinking ahead or are you the only one who's thinking ahead?

Yeah. I'm going to send this to my husband. He's not a planner. I was like, Ben, Ben, I'm going to make you do the toilet paper trick. No, he'll have toilet paper. It's not that. It's too late for her. It's too late.

My husband, I'm not going to throw him under the busky, but the planning part, he doesn't get to the point that like we got married a couple of months ago and I basically did the whole thing fine I also had a wedding planner like he assisted with some things but I left him to plan the three nights after the wedding the honeymoon it got to checkout of the wedding we were getting picked up in 15 minutes from an uber and I said to him where are we going he didn't hadn't booked anything 15 minutes that's so frustrating oh I was like I love you and it's too late because I married you yesterday but I was like has that paperwork gone through yet but like they're the things I think he just wasn't worried about he's like oh we'll just go on and book something now and I was like

you've just missed the point yeah what did you guys end up doing oh I feel so bad saying it my my best friend was there he was part of the bridal party and he's like Ben what the fuck he's like I'll just book you something he went on and booked something in the minute and he booked us something for the night anyway this is why they need the consequences of the toilet paper running yeah no I I feel that so hard like my husband was so annoying during wedding planning like I remember being in therapy and being like you know is this like a terrible sign and like is he going to be a bad father because he's not planning the wedding and this and that and she was like no he's not interested in planning the wedding so he's not doing it but

if he has a kid with you he'll be interested in that and this is a totally different thing and like that has been true my husband has been a great father but I do feel like wedding planning in particular brings out such a fresh I mean it's just very it's frustrating there's a lot of money there's a lot of family it's just creates a lot of friction but I think that kind of goes back to what we're talking about which is like because women often feel like they are the planners when a guy puts that planning energy out there it's like such a relief it's so refreshing it's so hot like when a guy takes any of the mental load it's like your panties are off but that's the thing too I think people underestimate that that's a great quote you can take that one too

people underestimate men I should say but the fact that the mental load is far more exhausting than physical load half the time like when you do not switch off your brain ever especially as a mom and a woman because when you go to bed you don't go to bed and be like ah with a sigh of relief you go to bed thinking oh my god I didn't do this for the morning I've got to do this at 6am it's like for anybody to take that load off you is the best thing they can do. What are you seeing on online dating? What men are doing well on there? Like what are the successful men doing? We talked about this, but it's like this effort goes so far. And so I feel like the bar is quite low for a lot of people. So just that extra effort of like commenting on your picture,

instead of just sending a like, or pretty quickly being like, Hey, let's move this. as you said to WhatsApp and I'll call you the right name or let's go on a date. Like, I think that because there's been all this nonchalant energy out there, people that are actually being intentional, being clear about what they want, being willing to be a little silly. I think that that's going really far because I think that if there's a world of everyone just trying to play it cool, then who makes the first move? Who takes the risk? Who gets into the relationship? I met this guy recently. He's sort of a famous author in the, in the United States. He writes kind of psychology books. And he was telling me about how he met his wife and like why he ended

up going on a date with her. And he was asking me like, why do you think it happened? Do you think it was because of this? Do you think it was because of this? And then I was like, I don't know. I give up. And he's like, it's because I asked, he's like, I met her. We met a few times. And then I asked her to go out. Like, turns out a lot of people don't ask like the super pretty women to go out on a date. And I just felt like it was such a good message. It's like the person that makes the effort is the one who wins. The person who shows up has a greater chance of success. And like, it feels like one of those cheesy motivational posters that you might have in an office in the nineties, but it's so true. It's like the people who are getting farther than

other people in dating today are the ones who are clear about what they want, who are willing to go after what they want and who have really more at bats because the more times that you get a chance to try the more likely you are to be successful and I think the people that are sitting back to be cool are losing out is that across the gender and sexuality spectrum or is that specific to like you know the straight guys are doing well if they're putting in effort and however the women who might you know do better are doing this other thing so obviously there are differences across countries and across age groups and across sexualities and gender expression and all those things. But I would say in general, the people who actually go on to hinge are willing

to be more earnest on their profile are more willing to say the relationship type that they want and they fill out more and they have voice memos like we do see that that's really correlated with people that go on more dates and have more matches and, you know, find someone and delete the app. And I think it's just good advice and everything. It's like most things in life worth doing are things that you have to take a risk for. And the people who are willing to take that risk are the ones who are the most successful. Do you think that this differs if you're a man or a woman? And what I mean by that is when a woman sees a man putting in the effort and being forward and saying what they want and being emotionally available, it's hot. It's what we're looking for.

We're like, great. He's not playing games. The antithesis of that is when a woman says, hey, this is what I want. This is what I'm looking for. Go out with me. I'm ready. I want something stable. The men are like, whoa, like you're a bit full on. You're coming on too hard. I'm looking for something casual. It just doesn't hit the same. What do you think is like the meat in the middle? I agree with you. I don't think it's exactly the same. And like, honestly, so many of the people that I coach and have coached for the last 10 years are kind of that kind of woman who's like, when it comes to my career, like I set a five year milestone and I go after what I one. And if I wanted to run a marathon, I would get a trainer. And like, it's frustrating that

love is something that you can't just set a plan and perfectly execute it because there's sort of another person involved. And so I do totally get where you're coming from, which is like, we're saying that, that women are super turned on by that planning energy. And like, I agree with you. I don't think guys are like, Ooh, I love this girl. She's such a planner because I think that they take it for granted more. And so really, I think like the crux of this conversation is really about the fact that for most of human history, women really relied on men for some of the basic things like security and money and providing food and all of these things. And now because of 50 years of progress for women, women don't need that as much. And so they're kind of looking around

and they're like, why are we in this relationship? Oh yeah. I want you to provide emotional openness for me. I want you to care about my life. I want you to be a different type of partner than maybe my dad was to my mom or previous generations were. And so I think that it's not that everything is equal where like men are like, yeah, I love planning energy. It's that we're kind of just reconfiguring how we want to be in relationships and why we're in relationships. Logan, something I remember when I was in the dating world and something that now in hindsight, I think probably took up a far more amount of mental energy than what it should have was that I had this underlying insecurity that I didn't think people would see me as being like

relationship material and the longer time that I spent being single the worse that insecurity for me got I just seemed to have this idea that if the guy I was talking to found out that I had been single for one year or two years or like I could extend this as far as like I have friends to have been single for over five years now where they've not had a committed relationship in that period of time and I mean I was nearly a decade yeah but I think that like there was something about me thinking if I tell them that of how long I've been single for is that going to indicate to them that I'm not going to be the person that they get into a relationship with and I think the opposite can apply as well when people find out that you are always a relationship girly in my

mind I thought that they would find that more attractive do you have any research from Hinge that would kind of indicate whether either of those situations actually is true. So what I can point to is more anecdotal, which is that I've been sending out this weekly newsletter for five years. And the number one email that I've gotten the most responses to out of everything for five years is this email that I wrote a few years ago called, are you undateable? And it was this idea that so many people feel like there's this part within us that makes us unworthy of love.

And it might be because, as you said, we've dated too many people. And what will people think about that? we haven't dated enough. So people don't think we have the experience. It might be that somebody has an STI. It might be that somebody has a chronic illness that they're caring for an aging parent. So many people wrote back and said like, this is why I feel like I'm undateable. And the work that I do to help people with that is to really come up with the narrative that helps them express who they are without apologizing for it. And so for example, the one that you were talking about, you know haven't dated enough I think the person could say something like you know I took a few

years off from dating I was really focused on my career I had so many fun experiences I got to travel around the world but now I've done a lot of self-work and I've realized that I'm really excited about finding someone and so far dating has been going really well or just you know something like that it's like well while I haven't had a ton of boyfriends in the past I'm actually very relationship oriented and I'm super close with all my friends from college and I have a really great relationship with my nieces and nephews. And I do prioritize relationships. I just haven't been in as many romantic relationships. And I think in practicing that and having a go-to line, it can be very freeing for people because instead of going

to the date and kind of white knuckling it and being like, Oh, what is the point where they're going to ask me the question where I have to admit this thing that makes me undateable. Instead, they're like, okay, I'm ready for that question. And I have something that explains who I am, but it doesn't say, do you accept me? Am I good enough? And I heard this line recently that I thought was helpful, which was share your scars, not your wounds. And so sort of say like, this is what happened to me, but like, here's how I dealt with it or how I overcame it. And by showing your scars, not your wounds, you're not saying like, this is a fresh thing. I'm sharing too much information. You're really saying like, this is the journey I've been on and here's why

I'm a better person for it. And I think don't underestimate the way that you speak to yourself. And when I say that, it's very easy. I got into that position, Keisha, I know you did too, but when you haven't dated for a few years or dated successfully for how you think successfully is in terms of it goes to a long-term relationship, it's very easy to say, oh, I'm the problem. I'm the common denominator. Like I'm undateable. I'm unlovable. No one wants me. And all of this stuff, you start to believe it. It's not true. Imagine if we all just fell in love and married the first person we ever dated the odds of that are so slim and great if you've done it but I think it's important to remember that this is a part of finding your your person your penguin is like

you have to go through this to figure out what works and what doesn't what's not right for you but the way that you speak to yourself has such an impact on the way that you're going to go into that date as well because if you're constantly telling yourself like he's not going to like me like everyone else anyway well he's probably not going to because you're going to take that energy into your dating life so I think that that's something that we all need to consciously be aware of because it is a slippery slope to get into that negative mindset yeah I love that point and I'd love to hear from both of you you know it sounds like you both went through periods of being single for a while like how did you make that shift towards feeling like I'm ready to date

and meeting the right person how did you do that well I think like and this is kind of related to something that I would love to actually get your advice on for other people someone actually bought the toilet paper I got to the point where I was I was really really burnt out and I was really exhausted from feeling as though I just I was really trying to do all of the right things in hindsight I was probably trying a little bit too much and I was trying to force you know a square peg round hole situation a couple of times in a row and I remember I took a couple of months off where I didn't have any apps and I also wasn't proactively like messaging anyone and on social media or whatever it might be. I just, I kind of put the brakes on a little bit and I sat down

with myself and I really went through, I think I actually, it must've been around the time that we'd spoken to you, Logan, because I remember going through and being like, I need to get rid of this six foot filter. Like I don't, five foot two, it doesn't fucking matter. Like it doesn't matter. And I was like, what do I actually want the characteristics of someone to be? And I kind of went back in and I remember deliberately going through and swiping or like whatever the function is like the tick thing or on people that I probably would have not previously thought were my type but I was like I what I'm doing is not working I need to try something different and that was the thing that I found in my now partner of two and a half years that I've said this before and I've

kind of apologized to him saying I hope you don't find this offensive the only reason that we are together is because he had consistency he called and texted me there was not one moment that I wondered will he text me today oh I haven't heard from him and not in a like an obsessive way it was just that from the moment that we started speaking we didn't stop speaking and it wasn't overwhelming and it wasn't over the top and it wasn't love bombing it was consistency and I had never had that before like I'd never had the security of that before and I still say that's the only reason that we are that's the only reason that it worked he put in effort this whole shalont dating thing was very very new to me and like that was the so far the only successful relationship that I've had

so what would your advice be to people who are in that phase where they are just so exhausted from being the one who is always trying to make it happen and trying to get these dates and talking to all these people and doing all of the things that you're supposed to do and they're feeling completely exhausted and hopeless from it? Well, first of all, I love that story. And I think it's so great. I mean, I think if more people like follow that exact path, like they would find love too. And I'm just thinking about, you know, a guy might see you and be like, oh, she's so pretty. I bet she just went for like the wealthiest guy or the tallest guy or the guy with the fanciest job. And you're like, no, it's way more simple than that. It's literally like the person that

is consistent. And I think so often people confuse someone who's consistent with someone who's boring. And what they're actually realizing is, oh, well, when somebody is hot and cold, when somebody likes you one day and doesn't the next, it's exciting. And we confuse that anxiety for chemistry. And we confuse that for butterflies when actually it's like, my body literally is uncomfortable because I don't know if they're interested or not. And it sounds like your boyfriend, he didn't try too hard. He wasn't coming on too strong. He wasn't a tool. He was just like, I'm into you and this is how I will show up. And I think consistency ties back to the theme of today's conversation, which is effort because it's effort to remember to text someone

it's effort to say, Hey, how was that meeting? It's effort to like, even when you're on a boy's trip to still text and keep in touch. And so I think you have like half the population sort of saying like women have unrealistic expectations and they want all these things. And then the other half is just like, can you be consistent please? And so I love that story. Well, I also think that I relate to what you said about I almost had to retrain my brain to be like, hmm, this is how it's supposed to be. I'm so used to this hot, cold, not sure if they're into me that I did confuse that for excitement and I confused it for the spark and for chemistry. And I learned along the way that like those things actually, they're not sustainable and they're not the building blocks of an actual good relationship. So there really was some inner work within myself that I had to do to retrain myself

away from expecting that kind of hot, cold nature. I think mine was more like internal. Mine was more, I got to a point where I valued myself more. I think that that was a different turning point. I just don't think I thought I was worthy of it. And it was my own doing in my twenties. And you get stuck into the mindset that I said earlier, where it's like, well, it's just who I am.

You know, I'm the person no one wants to date and you make a joke of it. and then all of a sudden it becomes who you are and I think as soon as I started saying setting my non-negotiables and my boundaries for what I expect which wasn't a lot and it goes back to exactly what you just said Keish it was just somebody doing the right things and being there it's not like it's not like my expectations were sky high they absolutely weren't but the second that I knew what I bring to the table and what I was looking for it became so much easier to date because there was no confusion. You would date somebody and you would be like, oh, okay, you're actually not giving me anything that I need. You're canceling all the time. You're

leaving me on read. You're whatever it is. And the second that you know, and you've written it down, you've got your non-negotiables, you've got your boundaries, you've got what you're looking for. Your intentions are clear. That is when it changed for me. I totally agree with that. And the reason why I find it so refreshing is because oftentimes when I'll ask people like, you know, why are you single or what's going on dating? They're like, there's just no good guys out there like there's no one to date I must I should move I'm in the wrong city for dating and I feel like what what you said Brit is really about this idea that like you were the one who had to change and once you changed you attracted different people you got into different types of relationships I'm

sure you saw red flags and you ran away from them in a way you wouldn't have otherwise and so it sounds like a lot of the internal work for you was what made the difference it wasn't like suddenly there was all these you know different type of guys that you had never met it's so true I was a moth to a flame like a red flag that was what that was and it was because that would then feed back into who I knew I was I was a person where it never worked out so when the fucking flag was flying I was like yes I'll do it because then I'm like oh woe is me another one bites the dust of course it bites the dust like he was he's a married sociopath in prison in America like you know he wasn't but like I'm like oh my god yeah I'm like nothing works out and that's why have you guys

seen that meme and it's like oh I saw the red flags but I thought it was a carnival that was so funny it was like I just thought it was something else so Logan when it comes to people who are in those phases of feeling really burnt out and like we spoke about at the start of the episode the people who are starting to feel hopeless what actual like steps do you recommend do you recommend for them to take a break from dating do you recommend for them to change up the way they're going about meeting people like what can they actually do I've been thinking about this a lot because I think burnout is real I think for people you know who have been on the apps and then met someone and then deleted it and then

come back again like I do think that that cycle can feel really hard and disheartening for people so just want to acknowledge like I think burnout is very real I definitely think that people can and should take breaks I remember I had this client once where she showed up to our sessions and every time she was just so negative like everything's the worst everything sucks it's not going to work out. And I was like, I'm going to have to assume that you're bringing this energy that you're bringing to me to your dates and people are going to run in the other direction. And so I think if you're feeling burnout, then you're going to give off negative energy. People are not going to be as attracted to you. And also you're not going to be able to see opportunity

where there is some, because if you're only looking for the negatives, you won't spot the positives. The other thing I would say, and I, I really believe that people need more hope. And so I think hearing about great relationships, reading a book about a great couple, hearing people talk honestly about their relationships, having an older couple that's your relationship role model, hearing about people that did meet in 2025 and have found love recently. I think that those really help with burnout because I think part of burnout is a hopelessness. It will never work out for me. Dating apps have stopped working. Like I think that there are real fears that people have, but like I have a friend this week that got engaged to a guy that she met on Hinge in the last 18 months.

And so I really feel like it's still working. People are still meeting and we need to spread those stories. What do you think about having a soulmate? like do you think that there are so many people suited to us for different seasons or do you think there is just this one person because i think a lot of people get stuck in looking for this one all-consuming be all and end all romantic meet cute relationship yeah so i fall hard into the no soulmate category i'm very romantic like i've dedicated my life to helping people find love i'm obsessed with my husband as you said that you are like i love love but i think part

of that is also being practical and being like, I happen to live in the United States and was born this year. I went to this college and like, I met this person at this stage of life, but like, I could have met someone else and also had a great life. Like, I think that we could have so many beautiful love stories with so many different people. And then if you put too much pressure on the soulmate, you actually make it harder for yourself. So I have this quiz on my website and it divides people into three types of daters. And one of the types of daters is the romanticizer and they basically have this exact thing. They're like, they're waiting for the soulmate. I'll know it when I see it, we have to meet in a romantic way and it's cute and it's,

you know, romantic, but it also can hold people back because the minute that someone doesn't match what they thought their husband was going to look like, or they hit an inevitable rough spot and they think, oh, well, if it were my soulmate, we wouldn't fight about that. It actually can make it harder for them. And so I really encourage people to make this switch from the soulmate mindset to what we call the work it out mindset where you really know like of course relationships are work things we're doing require work and that if you hit an inevitable rough spot it's about learning to work through it together not giving up and saying well that must not be my soulmate logan do you think that our exposure to the ability to compare our relationships and how

much that has increased with social media and stuff has affected the way that people have expectations of what a relationship is going to bring them? And do you think that, I mean, in some aspects we're saying like we need to raise the bar and women need to increase their expectations of what they want from someone. But is there an element of like, are there a type of people who actually could maybe decrease those expectations because they could be living a little bit in this comparison game that's not quite real, that's based off of social media? Yeah. So my views on this have changed over the past few years. So if you had asked me this five years ago I think I would have said Instagram is this overly filtered place where everyone is only

showing the highlights of their life and you see the perfect engagement and walking by the sunset and it's just telling us that like everyone's life is perfect except for ours but I actually feel like on TikTok and I guess on Instagram too there's a lot of date attainment where it's people being like guys I just got back from the worst date ever and you'll never believe it and they're getting a lot of social clout for these like horror stories and I think that is actually having an impact on people where like, they are only hearing bad stories about dating because people don't go viral for being like, he was so thoughtful. And I mentioned on my profile that I'd been to Turkey and he brought me this Turkish delight. Like those stories don't go viral. The

viral stories are like the bad ones. And so I feel like five years ago, it was about compare and despair. Everyone's relationship is perfect except for me. And now I think it's kind of like, is anyone finding love? Because all the stories I hear about with dating are so negative. it's interesting we had just one person but we had someone writing that exact thing to us not that long ago on the podcast for the exact reason right we tell a lot of funny messed up stories from people that have written in their their dating stories or where our friends stories or whatever we also talk about our success stories i got married off a dating app keisha's with someone from a dating app my sister got married off a dating app yeah i'm flying the

hinge flag logan we we fly the happy flag we love it but we fly the happy it's not a carnival it is what you make it but no we do fly these like success stories but they're i don't want to say they're boring but it's exactly what you just said it's not as entertaining people don't want to always hear about it so there was someone that wrote in and saying hey like love the podcast if you guys are great you're funny whatever i love the horror dating stories but hey sometimes it's too much for us that are dating and we're in it because it makes us feel like there's no happy ending out there and everyone's fucked and every dating story and every guy and whatever and I did have to think about that for a second and we're definitely not going to change

our content but I understand how when it feels like everywhere you're looking is all these horror stories that it does make you think well what chance do I have there's a time and a place for both like people like this idea of you're in the trenches with me like you went on a horrible date that makes me feel bad about my bad date but then I think they also need to believe like things can change there are good people out there like there is light at the end of the tunnel and like for the person who wrote that I might be like maybe you should take a break from the podcast like I think that that's okay it's like different media serves us at different times but I do try to think about the content that I'm consuming like I have been spending a lot of time on reddit lately and if

you spend a lot of time in a community even if you don't follow it it will show you more and more of that and so like when I'm reading all these like petty revenge and malicious compliance and like all these kind of like snarky subreddits like I'm into them but then I'm also like what is the energy that this is giving me. And so I think that people should be aware of who are you following on Instagram? Who are you following on TikTok? What are the podcasts that you listen to? And just really thinking about like, what do I need right now? And so I think for sometimes people just want to feel like misery loves company and other times I think they really need hope. And hopefully your podcast is, you know, giving them that combination of both. I also think that like

the algorithm overlords, like you said, if you start engaging with dating horror story content, it will give you that until the cows come home. And you probably actually have to actively search other things in order to almost like train your algorithm to shift so that it's not the only type of content that they are serving to you. And Logan, that was like one of the last things that I wanted to ask you about is how you forecast the world of AI changing the dating landscape. Like how is it going to impact the algorithms of the people that you might see on dating apps, or maybe the people that you will match with? So first of all, when it comes to AI,

I will just say like, I think we are really early days. I think we are all still figuring out what this is going to look like. Like, I do not think that we necessarily know what life, what work, what love will look like in five years. I can speak to what Hinge has done. So Hinge's whole philosophy on this is that Hinge wants to use AI

to bring you closer to another person, not to get between you and the person. And so it should never take the place of you communicating or you sharing who you are, you showing what you look like, it's like, could AI actually make that process easier. And so the first thing that we've really done is earlier this year, we launched this product called, it's a feature called prompt feedback. And so basically, it looks at what you write on your profile, and I'll say something like, you know, be more specific, or this one's great. And it really encourages you to dig in, it doesn't tell you what to say. And so for example, let's say you say like on a Sunday I love to relax and watch TV it might say like tell us more like

what type of TV but it won't say you should mention these shows yeah and so I think it's like a dating coach in your pocket like as if I could help everyone with their profile being like that's not specific enough go deeper but it's not taking the place of human expression and individuality I mean talking of like TV habits and whatnot I think that we can see a lot of different trends happen with the seasons. Logan, we're obviously in the opposite season to what you guys are in, but do you see specific patterns of people either wanting to get into or out of relationships that are like correlated with the time of the year that it is? So I'll tell you some of the things that we find in our research at Hinge. So one thing is that over the summer,

there is a lot of flirtatious energy. You know, maybe people are wearing shorter dresses. They're going to outside bars, they are excited about meeting people. But at the same time, there's a lot of summer travel. So I think sometimes people can be flakier during the summer. Okay, then we have the season called cuffing season, which is before it gets cold to pre winter, like October period, people are like, I want to find someone to buckle down with, and really have this relationship for the winter when maybe they don't feel like putting on a bunch of layers, especially in places like New York and going out. And then I find that there's a huge burst of energy around New Year's and we call this Dating Sunday. It's usually the most popular day of the year for

people to download and use a dating app. And that's because there's this whole new year, new you energy. People are thinking about what do I want in the next year? What's the energy I want to bring in? And so those are some of the seasonal changes that we see. Interesting. I mean, I guess that that's quite relevant for us at this time of the year because we're going into Christmas and into summer but also into New Year's. People don't want relationships in the summer. They want to be going around.

Like you said, they want to be going to travel. I wanted it whenever. No, I know, but people are more likely, exactly what Logan just said, it's like you're going on a trip. You know in three weeks you're going on a trip to Thailand so people are like, oh, I don't want to get serious with this person I've been talking to because I want to be available to go in.

But I just think, do you know what? Let's not think about the trends. Let's just think about what you want to do, putting your intentions out there and just going after what you want because you will meet the person that is in the same point as you are you will meet the someone that's like oh my god i'm also looking for a relationship i really feel like the right time to meet someone is when you're ready and open to invite someone into your life when you know who you are and what you want when you can spot the green flags and so yes those are some high level macro trends but i really feel like

any day is the right way to find a relationship logan we'll see you again for the fifth episode soon at some point i know i know somebody sent me to australia oh yeah so i'd love to have you here in person that would be amazing and for anyone who would like to read through the rest of hinges shalon dating report we will have a link to that in our show notes as well as links to everything to do with logan to her website her instagram her book all of the things we'll pop the past episode links in as well if you guys want to go back and listen to those but thank you so much for your time today yeah it's great to see you and I'm excited to see you again for our next one