Life Will Be the Death of Me with Chelsea Handler - A Therapy Session with Dr. Dan Siegel

Episode Date: April 14, 2022

Chelsea is joined in the Season 2 Finale by none other than her very own therapist: Dr. Dan Siegel.  They chat about the double-edged sword of social media, how to become a lifelong learner, and why you should always be generous with your oranges.  Then: A mom struggles with her child’s pronouns.  A 21-year-old grapples with the untimely death of her brother.  And a followup with doting dad Alex, as he prepares for the next step in his family story.  Season 3 of Dear Chelsea returns Thursday, May 12! * Executive Producer Nick Stumpf Produced by Catherine Law Edited & Engineered by Brandon Dickert * * * * * The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the Podcast author, or individuals participating in the Podcast, and do not represent the opinions of iHeartMedia or its employees.  This Podcast should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, mental health counseling or therapy, or as imparting any health care recommendations at all.  Individuals are advised to seek independent medical, counseling advice and/or therapy from a competent health care professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issues, health inquiry or matter, including matters discussed on this Podcast. Guests and listeners should not rely on matters discussed in the Podcast and shall not act or shall refrain from acting based on information contained in the Podcast without first seeking independent medical advice.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. The Jonas Brothers are running it back. We live the burning up tour and celebrate the biggest Jonas Brother hits that have defined a generation. One incredible celebration. One unforgettable night.

See the Jonas Brothers live at RBC Amphitheater September 28th. get tickets now at ticketmaster.ca jonas brothers the burning up tour all over again i survived nine months in captivity and i've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them i'm elizabeth smart and these are the survivor files every week i'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable abducted stalked controlled and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to the Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

you get your podcasts. On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle, I chose option B. I'm Julie Pinheiro, and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word solita, trading the pity for possibility. Listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home pro society is a weekly podcast that's part book club part group chat for anyone

who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse each week we're connecting the dots between books the internet and pop culture with your favorite writers book talk creators and plenty of overthought opinions listen to pro society on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts hey this is Hayes Davenport and Sean Clements we host the podcast Hollywood Handbook each week we talk to someone in show business and try to help them with their careers and see what they have to offer us everyone has a good time and no one gets mad at their publicist for letting them do our show we've had a lot of great guests like Sarah Sherman Adam Scott Danny McBride Ben Stiller and

a lot of other big shots that wouldn't be where they are without us listen to Hollywood Handbook on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, hi. Oh, hello, Catherine. Hello, Chelsea. Good afternoon, everybody. Good morning.

We have some very exciting news. Dear Chelsea, the podcast you are currently listening to has been named a Webby honoree in the podcast general series advice and how-to category. Woo-hoo! Woo! Congratulations, Catherine. Yay!

Congratulations, Chelsea. Oh, my God. But earning the distinction of Webby Honoree, that's what it's called, as recognized by the International Academy of Digital Arts and Sciences, is a significant achievement granted to only the top 20% of more than 14,300 projects submitted in this year's competition. So that is a very exciting little award. Oh, my God. I love it. I love getting nominated for awards. It's a whole new thing for me.

Yeah. I mean, it's just it's a little bit of recognition. It's kind of fun. I love an attaboy. Like, I love a pat on the back. So this is just a wonderful way to get one of those. Yes, yes, I agree. Thank you very much.

Yes. What else, Catherine? Well, I'm wearing my Dear Chelsea hat from our merch store. Oh, my God, our merch is in. You guys, our Dear Chelsea merch is in. It's available on my website at chelseahandler.com. It's very exciting. Oh, I should also tell you this.

So the very first day that I wore my Dear Chelsea lemon yellow T-shirt, I went for a hike. My husband and I were hiking in Griffith Park and a woman came up to me and she pointed at my shirt and she goes, I have that in my ears right now. And I was really confused. And then my husband was like, Catherine, she said she's listening to this podcast right now, the one that's on your shirt. And I was like, oh, that's cute. It was very cute. why you were so confused I was well it was like the urine it was like that's in my ears right now I was like wait I don't understand but she had earbuds in and it was a whole thing but it was very cute well that is cute I love that people listen to it I always forget you know you leave here and then you forget that you like even did a podcast right so it's nice when people say oh my god I love your podcast or I I've called in or I've written in somebody tried to hand me their submission the other day so I gotta get that to you as soon as possible just so everybody knows

Catherine handles the submissions yes and they're how do you submit again dear chelsea project at gmail.com don't send it to dear chelsea that's a very sweet woman who's not us and who's obviously annoyed by getting all of our emails but she's like I feel bad I want to make sure that these get to you so that's sweet dear chelsea project at gmail.com and yeah I read every single one that comes in so and actually i have received several emails about our amy schumer episode and there was one specific little thing that was mentioned on the episode that we wanted a lot of people wanted to make sure that we corrected which you know we're here to learn too so i think that's great ashley says dear chelsea i love love love your show the guests you have the topics you cover

it helps so many people and i love listening every week i'm writing to respectfully ask you for a correction to your episode with Amy Schumer. It was educational and vulnerable, and your conversation on the autistic community and later-in-life diagnoses will change people's lives for the better. In the episode, it was mentioned that autism can't be diagnosed until around age 5 or 6, which is incorrect. I'm a speech and language pathologist who works with children age 2 to 14, many of whom are autistic. You can seek diagnosis as early as age 2. Early intervention is key for many families, and often the stigma of autism keeps families from getting a diagnosis until much later.

My goal in my practice is always to put children and their families first, and with all the advocacy Amy does, I want everyone to be armed with the most accurate information possible. Thanks for your consideration, Ashley. God damn it, Amy. God damn it, Amy. Why is she always getting me in trouble? Come on.

I'm used to getting people in trouble, and then I met Amy Schumer. Okay, so you can get diagnosed as early as two. Thank you for your letter. Thank you for your correction. We appreciate that. And yes, we want to get out accurate information to everybody. Absolutely. Early intervention, guys.

Early intervention. I wish somebody would have intervened with me earlier than they did because I really just, I could have used some sort of diagnosis when I was younger. I don't know what my diagnosis is, but I could have used some help. I feel like we're, as we have expanding conversations about everything in the public domain, there are so many things that I'm like, oh, wait, I have this. I have that. Like, it's because of podcasts and one in particular that I was like, oh, I have anxiety. That's what that feeling is.

Yeah. Or actually knowing the difference between anxiety and like, you know, anxiety encompasses so many different things. Like being annoyed with people is anxiety. I always thought anxiety is like, oh, social anxiety or an inability to socialize or perform or go out or stage fright, like that kind of thing. And it's actually much more nuanced than that. There is a whole spectrum of anxiety that you can suffer from, and it can present in many different ways in different people. So, you know, eating is anxiety sometimes. Doing drugs is anxiety sometimes.

Or a celebration. Can be either. Chelsea, do you have any tour dates that you want to cover? Yes. I added a show in Saratoga, Saratoga Mountain Winery. I added a second show in Nashville. Nashville is where I am shooting my next special. So there will be two shows now in Nashville.

And I am also performing at the Just for Laughs Comedy Festival in Montreal. Everyone has been asking for Montreal dates to all of my Canadian friends. That is July 28th. I will be at the Montreal Just for Laughs. I'm hosting a gala. And then I also have two dates in Vancouver, Friday, August 12th, two shows in Vancouver. And then Saturday, August 13th and Sunday, August 14th, tickets are available for Calgary in Alberta. And I'm also adding a show Saturday, October 8th in Niagara Falls, which is Ontario.

So those are my Canadian dates coming up. And then this week, I'm starting back on tour. So Thursday, April 14th, I'm in Cedar Rapids. Then the 15th, I'm in Des Moines, and I'm coming to Omaha, Nebraska on Saturday night. So, and then the week after that is Louisville, Kentucky, St. Louis, Missouri, and two shows in Kansas City. So check ChelseaHandler.com for your tickets. I'm back on tour, vaccinated and horny. Let's get down to business.

It's just great. It's just great. I'm just back from Vegas, so I'm looking a little peckish or peaked. one of those words they both apply actually I'm hungry and tired uh we went to Whistler to celebrate my friend Ange's birthday that was Saturday night very fun Sunday night was the Grammys in Vegas which we flew out to with all of our friends from Whistler then we celebrated Joe's birthday after the Grammys we had a after party for him with his DJ Turb his one of his besties DJing and it was so much fun and then we did it again Monday and then we did it again

tuesday and we had activities like dune bugging in the desert for all of our guests we had about 75 people there so i am fresh off of a flight from vegas i just landed i'm here today and talking ready to talk to my to our very special guest for our final episode which is our season finale of season two we'll be back shortly we won't take that long of a break but our finale guest is none other than my psychiatrist, Dr. Dan Siegel. It's very exciting. It's very exciting to have him on. And he's going to help us with a couple of sort of trickier questions that we've had. Because I obviously, I want to explain to all of my listeners, obviously I can help with many things. And I think I know a lot about a lot of things. And I also know that I don't know

a lot about some important things. So when there is heavier advice to be given, where we do need a professional I obviously try to implement one every few episodes so we can catch up with the callers who I was not feeling confident enough or you weren't feeling confident enough to help by the way I've got so many compliments on you this weekend oh my gosh and my sister was also saying I was on the phone with her last night just how much she a loves your voice and b how well-rounded you are she was like god Catherine just knows a little bit about everything and I was like I know she's like a general practitioner that's so great I mean I guess I told her finance is your specialty because that's where you really come alive oh my gosh that

would actually make everyone in my family my dad is a tax attorney so that would make him laugh very very hard but oh that's so great yeah what a great compliment yeah you know I love to research I love to fall down an internet rabbit hole so it's finally paying off yeah it really is now you've got this Emmy, Webby Award. I mean, I slipped and said Emmy. We can get one of those too. Yeah, that's next for us. Excellent. Excellent. Well, should we welcome Dr. Dan onto the show? I know Dr. Dan, during the course of this interview, will mention several of his books, but do we want to also, maybe at the end, we can mention all the books because his books are helpful. And I would like to just be on the record and say there, a lot of them are parenting

books and I've read three parenting books from him. So you are an expert in parenting. Well I mean it was more for Bert and Bernice and we know how that turned out so I mean I don't know if you could apply parenting books to animals but that's what I was after. I mean I think they can be as sassy as teenagers like Mimsy is in a very teenager stage right now. Yeah. She just plants her feet when she doesn't want to go home on a walk. Oh yeah Bernice does that all the time. Bernice won't step on certain materials like she doesn't like certain surfaces so she stops and then you have to basically choke her to pull her over it she doesn't like sand she doesn't like cement that's just like anything that's dirty really just very spoiled yeah yeah exactly i don't know

where she got that from my bell must be it must be we'll be right back the jonas brothers are running it back we live the burning up tour and celebrate the biggest jonas brother hits that has defined a generation one incredible celebration one unforgettable night see the jonas brothers live at rbc amphitheater september 28th get tickets now at ticketmaster.ca jonas brothers the burn it up tour all over again when i was 14 years old i was kidnapped and held captive for nine months i survived and i've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them i'm elizabeth smart and these are the survivor files i just remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying shut up don't say anything every week i'm with

survivors who lived through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books,

the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much,

you're in the right place. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages. On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus, or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle.

I chose option B. I'm Julie Pinheiro, and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word solita, trading the pity for possibility. Every time I tried to be alone, I kept meeting people and they were like, you smiled at us.

Not a lot of people smile around here. It's when you're alone that you're most receptive to the world as it is and not the lies you're sold about it. It can be a time where you push your limits, change your mind, or wake up to a new version of yourself. So whether you're a solo travel veteran or you're too nervous to book your first trip, I hope you listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb. If you know me, you know I'm always

searching for inspiration and useful tools to maximize joy. So this podcast lets us uncover those things together through meaningful conversations with fascinating people. Like when my friend Henry Winkler offered advice to aspiring actors and really anybody hoping to stand out. You're not hired just to fill time and space. You're hired to fill the space with you. You have something in your guts. You go with it. And Shawn Johnson recalled the moment she realized her now husband, Andrew, was the one. He was just so unapologetically himself and knew nothing of Hollywood.

He hadn't been on a plane before without his family. It was so pure. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So today's guest has a medical degree from Harvard. He's a clinical professor of psychiatry at the UCLA School of Medicine and the founding co-director of the Mindful Awareness Research Center at UCLA. He is a multiple-time New York Times best-selling author,

a neuropsychiatrist, and interpersonal neurobiologist, Dr. Dan Siegel. Oh, my God, look who it is. Hi. Hi there. How are you? Long time no see-see. I know. How are you, you? I'm very well. This is my co-host, Catherine, who I think you've spoken to. Hi, Catherine. Nice to see you.

Likewise. Likewise. Dan uses a standing desk, Catherine, so if his motion is giving you motion sickness, let him know. Yeah, I can stop if you want. I like walking, but if you want me to stop, I can stop. No, that's fine. I'm fine with it. Although, Catherine, are you okay with it? I think I'm okay with it. If I do get motion sickness, I will let you know. I love the idea of getting motion sickness from someone else's motion. What does an interpersonal neurobiologist mean, Dan? You know, interpersonal neurobiology is a phrase for a framework that combines all different ways

of knowing, like the different fields of science or studies of meditation, what are called Contemplative Insights with Indigenous Practices, Indigenous Wisdom. And we bring it all together and say, if there's one reality, can everybody join in the tent and have a conversation that's collaborative so we can see the wisdom from all these different points of view? Oh, interesting. Is that a new field? Yeah, it's a new framework. I introduced it in 1999, so it's relatively new compared to some other things. But it's new, especially in the notion that it's not trying to replace an existing point of view. It's trying to say, there are so many views from thousands of years

ago, or from dozens of years ago. And if they're all exploring the nature of truth, could we see if they all fit together somehow? There's a common ground that E.O. Wilson, the writer calls consilience. So we look for the consilience or common ground across independent pursuits of knowledge. Oh, wow. We're really leveling up this episode, Catherine. Buckle in. So that relates to actually one of the questions that I want to ask you, but I'll ask that later, but it relates to it. Okay, great. I love it. I love when you ask me questions. It's so great to see you, I got to say, Chelsea. Oh, it's always good to see you. Always good to see you. I spoke to you a few months ago because I'm in a new relationship

and about the adjustment to be in a relationship with somebody, to spend so much time with somebody when I'm so used to being so kind of independent and alone. And I wanted to mention, because you and I had a conversation once, and I can say this because it's private until I publicize it. So I'll say it, but we talked about, I remember there was a period of time where I was telling you that I just, I was like, I just want to go to bed at like eight o'clock every night. You know, I'm not in the mood to hang out. I just want to be in bed all the time. And I was asking you, do you think I'm depressed? And I was single at the time. And you said saliently, I think that if someone were in your life that you were excited about, you wouldn't want to go to bed at seven or

eight o'clock. And it's, I still like to go to bed at seven or eight o'clock. I mean, there are times when I can, where of course I don't because he's a night owl and we compromise a lot. But the other night I remember we came home, he was taping two of his shows at the Forum in LA, his Netflix special. So there were big nights out and we were out till one in the morning. Then we were out till five in the morning. And on the Sunday, we were planning to go to all these Oscar parties. And I woke up Sunday. I'm like, I'm done. I can't, I can't socialize anymore. And that night, and you know, Joe wakes up, my boyfriend has more energy than a battery pack. I mean, it is unbelievable what this guy is willing to do all day long on no sleep. It's just crazy. I've never seen any

human being operate like this. He's got different DNA. So anyway, that night he was like going somewhere. I wanted to go to dinner with his family. And I was like, I really just want to go to bed at seven or eight o'clock. And I remember the conversation you and I had. And I thought, oh, what does this mean that I still want this? Because I have this kind of element now to my personality where I want to hunker down, you know, where I want to get in bed and watch TV and just build myself a little nest. And I know when you do that often or too much, it becomes, it does become a pattern where it feels like you are depressed. Well, no. So what's the part where you're calling it depression? Well, I think when I was doing it consistently, now I do it, you know,

on a Sunday night, you know, or, you know, I don't do it as frequently. So it doesn't feel as like bad because when you do it consistently, and I think it was also maybe a product of COVID as well, that I was just like, there's nothing going on. It's just easier to get stoned and go, you know, get into bed and whatever. But it was becoming a pattern that I didn't like about myself. It just didn't feel, I didn't feel alive. I felt like I was slightly depressed and I've never really dealt with any depression to the level where I had to really like take anything for it. Or I don't know, I guess I, I don't know if it's a question or just an observation, but I don't know. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah. Well, you're raising a couple of really

important issues. I mean, one, when you use the word depression, we should realize that there are people in the world who have really serious ways where they get the experience of maybe going to bed early or even having a hard time falling asleep. It can go either way. Their sleep can be interrupted. They can get up early or they can sleep really long time. So sleep is a big issue to talk about with this thing called major depression but in addition you know they have low energy they have something called anhedonia which means and is without hedonia's pleasure so they don't get pleasure in things that used to give them pleasure and also they don't get pleasure in anticipating doing something fun so they kind of lose their joie de vivre their their joy of living

It kind of goes away. They start thinking kind of really down thoughts like I'm no good. I'm guilty of things that I'm not even guilty of. You know, I'm a horrible person and there's no future for me. There's no hope. And then I start feeling helpless. So for any of us who've worked on a suicide prevention service, when someone with serious depression calls you, you can feel it in the tone of their voice. It's kind of like flat and there's a huge despair there that makes suicide a serious risk. So if anyone's hearing us and you're experiencing those, please reach out for help to a mental health professional. If suicide is something you're thinking about, please reach out to a suicide prevention service because the great news about depression

is that it's treatable. And even though you may feel hopeless, there's hope right around the corner. And part of it actually is the connection we talked about. So when I said to you, I think if you had a connection with someone that mattered to you in your life, it wasn't that I thought you were depressed, but some people do get depressed because they have no connection. And it's really loneliness, deep, deep loneliness. And our community, our larger society now doesn't really support people having connections with each other. You know, the current US Surgeon General wrote a beautiful book called Together about this sad epidemic we have, where we have so much material wealth but we don't have much relational wealth people are so isolated from each other

so you know that's that's a separate sort of thing so being lonely can make you feel horrible and despairing but it might not be called major depression but it still feels terrible and we need to help people with that and then there's you know just what's called dysphoria which is where you just feel yucky about your life dis is bad for me is how you feel and i'm dysphoric you know, and I think anyone who reads the news can get dysphoric because we're in a rough place in the world now. So our body is going to respond emotionally and emotion, you know, is basically three things woven together. It's relationships, the body's response and meaning. Those three things are really what emotion is. So if someone says, oh, my emotion feels horrible, I feel down,

what's going on with the world yeah let's let's name it so we can frame it like in a picture frame and say that's what it is let's try to participate you know in social activism let's try to do something to really feel empowered to actually have what's called agency or i can be an agent of action to do something so a lot of people these days are feeling hopeless and they can call it depressed, but that gets people mixed up with a serious psychiatric condition rather than the world is in a really tough spot. So we can feel hopeless. Let's talk to each other about it because in working collectively, we can actually move through that to what Joanna Macy, a beautiful writer, calls active hope. So this is a way you can take that word depression and see it as either

a serious disorder that sometimes these medications or other treatments or a more moderate condition where, you know, psychotherapy can be helpful or a way we're using that word to describe loneliness and then having a change in your participation in life. You know, like people in AA, for example, they get instant community through Alcoholics Anonymous meetings and their feeling of loneliness and despair can dissolve away because they go to a regular meeting, like A relative of mine is a recovering alcoholic, and he goes to meetings seven days a week. And he's like the most un-lonely person you're going to find because he's got a whole community every day that he's actively a part of very meaningful conversations. Yeah, I like dysphoric.

That's a good way to describe it because I think for many of us, especially with the events of the last few years, it's like a low level of dysphoria, you know? And it feels maybe like depression because it's not a common feeling. I know for me, I've never felt that kind of listlessness where you're just like, it's ennui. You're just like, I can't get it up for anything. I'm not that excited about anything that's happening. And I definitely did remove reading the news from my repertoire after a while because I just, I read too many. It was too obvious what it does to your brain. And obviously now with the events, the most recent events in Ukraine and Russia invading Ukraine like that is something that is a human being. It's our responsibility, I believe, to be up to speed and to understand and to be actively involved in doing whatever it is that you may be able to do, you know, whether that's donating money or volunteering in some way or just being mindful of what's happening in the world and meditating on it every day. whatever like small contribution you think is fine for you or big contribution. But the political aspect, it's just too sickening. So I realized that that was just contributing to my kind of darkness for a long time and had to remove that. And it's kind of like, it's too bad, but it's an addiction. It's just like anything else. It's just like being addicted to TikTok or

Instagram or mindlessly scrolling through your phone on social media, that is also an addiction, you know? And I don't like the way that makes me feel either. And I'm very mindful of how perusing, like, you know, if I'm reading a book for two hours, I come away with a much different feeling, a much greater self-assuredness and self-esteem than I do when I'm wasting my time reading gossip or reading, you know, the internet. Like, I know now what the components are that that trigger me or take me to kind of a low energy vibrational place. Exactly. Well, you know, you're describing an awareness of how you're responding, your body's responding, your emotions are responding. And then in that awareness,

you've beautifully created a space. So you can say, wow, I'm kind of addicted to these social media things. And I notice I feel really bad. Wow. When I take the time to reflect on that, I can name it. Oh, I feel bad when I do the social media. I can frame it and say, okay, what do I want to do about it? I'm not going to do it as much. That's an empowered mind you're talking about that you have. And it's beautiful to hear you describe it. And a lot of people, and if you've seen the social dilemma documentary, you know, the people who designed social media studied addiction and they intentionally create stuff on your screens to capture eyeballs, to capture your time, focusing your attention on the thing, whatever it

is. That wasn't by accident. It was by intent. Yeah. But what's so astonishing is that everybody is aware of that and has been made aware of that. Yet we still allow ourselves to operate like that. Like, people are like, I know, it's crazy. It's like, well, wait, you're just a cog in a wheel if you're just allowing people to manipulate your brain. Right. Well, and part of the reason why that addiction, what's called intermittent reinforcement, if you keep on giving positive reinforcement over and over again, after a while, it isn't so addicting. but intermittent reinforcement where i give you a reward then three next times i don't then i give you one then eight times next i don't then the ninth time you get a reward you don't know when it's going to happen so it really pulls you in that's number one the other thing which is the other side of it is that our brains are incredibly social so there's all sorts of studies i could

tell you about but but the summary of all of them basically is we are social creatures that's no surprise. You didn't need to do brain studies to know that. But when you look at the brain areas involved in feeling accepted, and I can tell you one study that is so cool, when you're accepted, it activates this dopamine release. It's very rewarding. That's what the dopamine is for. That was good. Let me do it again. Let me do it again. Let me do it again. But then when you sense that you're not accepted, like you're not getting as many hits on your social media or whatever like that. The part of the brain, it's called the dorsal anterior cingulate. The part of the brain that registers social rejection, I call it feeling of being

inadequate, like I'm not fitting in with the social group. It's exactly the same part of the brain as if someone's stabbing you with a knife. It hurts. Literally in the brain, it's the same part of the brain. Social rejection, physical pain, same part of the brain. Now, when you take that you go wow okay so you're always trying to see how can i fit in how do i compare how do i fit in how do i compare do i belong do i not belong you know so you're trying not to feel the pain you're trying to find membership in a in a modern society as we talked about earlier where we're so alone so you combine those two things the intermittent reinforcement all the other ways they know about addiction with the social brain and it is a money maker because then you're going

to get so much time think about it 15 years ago we didn't have these things and now everyone's got them yeah i know people are like oh we're going to keep our kids off social media we're going to keep them off of ipads they're not going to get any of that until they're 10 12 15 i have a friend who waited for her kids to get a phone until i think they were 14 and it's like what does that do because once you get it once you're in you're in right i mean i even see it in my two kids you know one was he's old enough he's 32 to not have had that part of his adolescence the other is 28 and she did and you can even see in their different groups of friends you know they deal with social media in different ways the younger one more i'll tell you a sad thing i was having

lunch with caroline my wife we were having a nice lunch in new york it was a great restaurant and everything then these people come sit next to us with this one-year-old kid and it was really cute and they were from another country and it was her birthday so it was a birthday party so they put out this present just one sitting in the high chair they handed her a smartphone and for the rest of the so-called birthday party lunch every one of them is on their separate device and caroline and i are going oh my god so i took out my phone to take a picture because i wanted to put it up on social media she goes don't do that you know which was right i shouldn't expose them although i did get a picture where you couldn't see identity but anyway you really

should know better than that first of all i know i know but i wanted to share on social media how scary social media can be because this kid now at one you should have gone up to them and said hey yeah these are my credentials and i need to let yeah i and said listen i am a doctor that specializes in this i have a degree from harvard i'm a neuropsychiatrist you do you understand the damage you are doing to your child's brain and your own brain. I'm going to memorize what you're saying. Next time I'm going to do that. Yeah, come on. I mean, think about the impact that would have had. Yeah, maybe it's unwelcome, but I mean, you're doing them a favor, you know, at least giving them the information that they may not be privy to.

Well, it's so interesting, Chelsea, because there are times when I wonder about doing that, offering unrequested suggestions. Now, my kids are now adults. So that's a whole parenting adult children thing where you actually intentionally don't do it. But as a professional and a member of our human family, when do I offer stuff like that? So it's a little tricky. I've tried it a few times and it often does not go off well. So what I do is I keep a lot of my extra parenting books in the car. And then I just like hand them out for free, like, you know, Halloween, you know, trick or treat. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I guess, you know, nobody, I mean, most people would say, don't give unsolicited advice. I obviously subscribe to a different theory. I think that

sometimes that can hit somebody. I mean, not always, but sometimes you can get somebody who really hears you and you're doing them a service or a favor, you know? I mean, that is sad. Yeah. But you know, when you and I first met, I really was impressed with how you like to learn new stuff. What in you really empowers you to have such a focus on lifelong learning? Because when you came to me, you weren't like an adolescent coming to me for therapy. I'm a child adolescent and adult therapist. An adolescent can struggle with things. You were a full-on adult, accomplished a lot, but you came to learn more. And it's such a beautiful thing that I think Life Will Be the Death of Me, your book, illustrates. But what is it that you can

teach all of us about your lifelong learning nature? Well, I mean, thank you. I think that's a huge compliment. I mean, I don't know that it's really, I think I just am very curious, you know, like I have a curiosity that I've always had, which has gotten me into lots of trouble as a child, like asking impertinent questions, but being really curious about people's lives. And I love interpersonal dynamics. Like I just love, like when I meet a family, like if I'm on vacation and I get to meet brothers and sisters together with their parents and watching the dynamics and like how they function, I just will never get tired of that. And because I'm from such a big family and we have so many additional family members because people get married and hook up

and have boyfriends and girlfriends and children, it just gets more and more complex. And so for me, it was about becoming a better, more self-aware, fuller person. But curiosity, I think, you know, I could listen to you talk about the brain and science for hours because I find that fascinating too. You know, I mean, there are things I don't find fascinating like Bitcoin, you know, that is when I talk about that, it's like, okay, I don't have, I mean, I had someone explain an NFT to me finally where i was able to get understand from the beginning to the end and i was like oh my god i want to i want to pay you for that explanation because i now understand what an nft is okay well i i'd have you tell me that but uh we won't we'll save that for another we'll save that for a private

conversation yes yes but thank you i mean i don't know i really don't know how to answer that but i do think that you know when you ask questions you are you're signing up for just like more knowledge right you're yeah and especially if you have the luxury of going to someone like you you have so much experience it's like it's a win-win situation yes it's going to be painful at times when you're doing inner work of course because you have to face things about yourself that are not pleasant and that are humiliating or embarrassing or however you want to frame that but uh bravery gets you to a better place in life i think you know being brave about finding out about yourself I think your journey in therapy, it isn't everyone's experience that they're so basically open to change. And I remember there was a moment, and you say this in the book, so I can share it. You got very emotional about something. And I think there was an awareness that you felt you shouldn't be emotional, you shouldn't be crying, you shouldn't have that, right? One is lifelong learning, but the other is openness to change.

Well, yes, I would encourage everyone to always be curious to learn. I mean, learning is knowledge and knowledge is power. And I want to be powerful. OK, so should we go ahead and take some callers? I think that's a great idea. And I'm going to make us take a quick break before we do that. I love breaks. Let's take one.

Excellent. We had a caller, right, Catherine, that's going to call back in because it's a man who's transition from being a woman and he has a three-year-old daughter the jonas brothers are running it back we live the burning up tour and celebrate the biggest jonas brother hits that have defined a generation one incredible celebration one unforgettable night see the jonas brothers live at rbc amphitheater september 28th get tickets now at ticketmaster.ca Jonas Brothers, the Burn It Up Tour, all over again. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.

I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files. I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, Shut up. Don't say anything. every week i'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable i knew if he woke up without a doubt he was going to hurt me i started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed and i just started screaming they are abducted stalked controlled and nearly silenced but these aren't stories about what's taken from them they're stories about what it takes to make it out alive

Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators

to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

See you between the pages. On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus, or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I chose option B. I'm Julie Pinheiro, and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes

without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word solita, trading the pity for possibility. Every time I tried to be alone, I kept meeting people and they were like, you smiled at us. Not a lot of people smile around here. It's when you're alone that you're most receptive to the world as it is and not the lies you're sold about it.

It can be a time where you push your limits, change your mind, or wake up to a new version of yourself. So whether you're a solo travel veteran or you're too nervous to book your first trip, I hope you listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb. If you know me, you know I'm always searching for inspiration and useful tools to maximize joy. So this podcast lets us uncover those things together through meaningful conversations with fascinating people. Like when my friend Henry Winkler offered advice to aspiring actors and really anybody hoping to

stand out. You're not hired just to fill time and space. You're hired to fill the space with you. You have something in your guts. You go with it. And Shawn Johnson recalled the moment she realized her now husband, Andrew, was the one. He was just so unapologetically himself and knew nothing of Hollywood. He hadn't been on a plane before without his family. It was so pure. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

with his wife and he was asking when the appropriate time is to explain all of those things to her and I thought we have Dan coming up I think you'd be better suited to answer that question instead of me so I think we were able to get Alex on the phone today right Catherine yes his three-year-old daughter Sutton he has a bottom surgery coming up in the next year and a half and so he's wondering how to address those things with Sutton. So hi, Alex. Hello. Hi, Alex. Hey, Alex. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Well, when you were on last time, I was like, oh, you know what? We had a great conversation, but I thought we have my doctor coming on next and he would be better suited since he specializes in adolescent

brain development and childhood, all of this stuff. So yeah, he's here. So we thought maybe you could give him a summary of your situation so he could weigh in. For sure. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. So the situation really is I have a three-year-old and I am on the cusp of going through the consultation process to have my next major surgery as being transgender. And I really am going to be embarking upon a long journey of about three to four surgeries to have everything happen. And it usually takes about a year, year and a half and long recovery times. And I wanted to do this early in Sutton's development so that it wasn't kind of a core memory for her, but I'm just kind of teetering on how much to tell a three-year-old, a four-year-old about what type

of surgery I'm having, the impact that it's going to have to her life, as well as what healing time is because it's not like I'm sick or going through anything that's that's something that she should be worried about more. So this is a great part of my journey, but it's going to be impactful for her. So I just want to make sure that I'm expressing both sides of it and the reality of it, but also in a way that she's going to understand what's happening today. Well, she's so lucky to have you as a parent, Alex, because your intuition of tuning in and getting a feeling of transparency that a family without secrets is a family that has, you could call it a coherent narrative, that is a narrative about whatever's going on, even if it's about

something that wasn't expected, which is usually where stories come from, you know, is really important. And what is your heart and your gut? Literally, we have three brains. You have a brain in your head. You have a brain in your heart. You have a brain in your gut. And what is your heart brain and your gut brain? What are they telling your head brain that has the words to speak? What are they signaling to you? So I suppose if I was to refer to my heart, I would say that I want to make sure that she feels comforted in those times when I'm healing and I, you know, can't be around her as much, can't play with her as much or engage with her as she expects. And then I guess my gut is kind of telling me to be a little bit more worried about

kind of what the impact is going to have and what I guess the optics are a big thing. Optics of her going back to daycare or talking about what our family looks like at that time or her having to do everything with mom because I won't be able to get out of the house as well for that amount of time so yeah i just want her to feel like like i'm still there just as i am every single day now with being as able as i am that's fantastic and you know these two brains when they send their wisdom up to your head brain which has kind of logic and thinking about things in that way what does your head brain say about the whole developmental timing of when to speak with her i suppose my my head brain is kind of kind of being more logical hopefully it's it's it's on

my side but being more logical in the way that telling me that it's it's it's going to be okay like this is only going to be a blip in what our family development looks like and i hope that what comes out of it is that she sees that my happiness continues to grow on my personal journey and that our family just becomes more kind of united that when she looks back on the time, yes, it was trying in the grand scheme of how we had to schedule things. And I wasn't there for, you know, going and running outside as much, but after the healing life, we'll go back to quote unquote normal. And I will just have more happiness and more understanding of where, how I walk in the world. So that hopefully just makes it easier for her and for our family to progress as, as a human.

That's so beautiful. Well, I mean, Alex, for me, you've kind of answered the question in the deepest way of what feels right to you personally, what feels right to you for your daughter. And then, you know, when you're turning to Chelsea and you're turning to me, you know, as a person who writes about development, here's just added on top of your wisdom. I would just add the following things. The way you're, I think, approaching the notion of a family story, the family narrative, and I don't say story like a pretend story. I mean, we are narrative creatures. We tell the story of who we are. And some families never do that. And there are all sorts of secrets and all sorts of things that are never talked about, you know, and then that shuts things down. I mean, Chelsea, we could talk about that, about when your brother died that you've written about so powerfully in your narrative of letting

that come out and be the story. So Alex, for you and for your whole family, everything can be our teacher. You know, life happens, stuff that's challenging happens. And if we see things that are not expected as challenges rather than as threats, then we bring as a parent a very different attitude, like saying, you know, we didn't expect this to happen. Now, how you then make that health-promoting, growth-promoting stress or distress is what I think your beautiful question is doing. You're saying, this is going to be stressful. That's fine. Life that's meaningful is stressful. How do we allow this to turn into a positive, growth-promoting, challenging experience rather than a threat? And the answer is what you've already told us. You're ready to be

fully present with your daughter. You're being fully present with yourself. And so, you know, you could turn to the people who are involved in the surgery and the centers you're working with and ask them this question too, which I urge you to do. From my point of view, it's not my area of specialty, but as a child specialist, what I would say is this is every child's a little different in terms of their temperament. And every child is a little different in terms of their attachment to different caregivers. But the commonality across temperament and attachment is to tell a story that makes sense of things. So in a book I wrote called Parenting from the Inside Out, it sort of teaches you how to bring those stories. Or I wrote that with Mary Hartzell,

a book I wrote with Tina Payne Bryson is called The Power of Showing Up. Those two books would be great ones for you to actually read before you tell her the story, because they show that whatever the age, people ask this about kids who are adopted, when should I tell my adopted kid? Whenever you bring it, two, three, four, she's old enough now to be able to hear a story, as you know, don't want to hear it again and again and again and again. And so you have to be ready to be repeating yourself. But that's fine. And when she sees the love in your heart, When she feels that your gut is really behind this and your head is now bringing the words to make a story make sense, she's ready at three, unless there's some other issue that says, let's hold it off. But if the surgery is happening soon, then telling the story, even having, you know, toys that allow, you know, enact the story.

And here's what I would say. This is not just about the surgery, but about the general idea of transitioning is people, they don't understand that gender identity is different than assigned sex, whether you have a penis or vagina. when I used to be in pediatrics and we'd go to the delivery room to help with the baby, you'd see the outer manifestation and say, boy or girl. But gender identity is actually along an entire continuum because the brain of mammals can be hugely female, which it starts out as in all of us. But then the way the testosterone that's secreted by the testicles crosses the blood-brain barrier, and to various degrees, masculinizes that brain to be a teeny bit masculine, but mostly feminine, or middle way, both ways, or all the way masculine, your gender identity is based on that. And it's not yes or no. It's not like a switch on or off,

you know, boy or girl. So just explaining it that way, even like a switch, you say, what we look like for most of us, 98% of us outwardly, when we're born is like a switch, it's on or off, it's boy or girl, but actually gender identity is not like that. It's more like a thermostat where you have all these degrees and you can't tell a person's gender identity from the outside. And I had one gender identity and my assigned sex was something else. So I'm in the good fortune of making sense of that. And so I'm going to make my outside match my inside. That's the story, right? So she at three, she's going to get that. And when I work with kids who like four or five who are assigned gender is one thing, but gender identity is the other.

I talk to them about that. And the parents say, oh, but this is going to be challenging. Oh, yeah, but this is the way it is. And this person could be incredibly healthy and happy if you, as their parents, let them see this is just what happened. And life is about always exploring and learning and growing. And this is a beautiful thing. And it works out fine. Whereas, as you know, if people say, no, no, no, you can't do that, that's when it's a problem. So is that part of what you've learned in your journey? Absolutely. And making sure that having a daughter that's kind of going through this journey as a part of my journey, I feel it's my responsibility as her parent to make sure that the environments that she is in, the people have

that positive outlook. And that's what I'm trying to do as well, which is why it's just nerve racking, you know, raising a kid in this day and age. And I'm from, we're in a small town in West Michigan. So it's a little bit difficult, but I think exactly like you said, creating that narrative for my family that makes a positive space, no matter what challenges come about is, is a great way to put it because no one writes that story or that narrative, but, but us. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You know, you might enjoy also giving you these references, but there's a book called brainstorm I wrote for adolescents, which talks about how parents can approach when a child themselves is having a different, this is I think was sexual orientation issue, but the same thing,

you know, parents have one expectation, a kid comes out the other way, how that works out. This would be the flip side where you're going to come as the parent to teach your child that what she may be learning in school or on television is one extreme and that is actually more subtle. And And so she has the incredible fortune of having you as a parent who will guide her through a deeper notion of the way things actually are, which is a beautiful gift you're going to give her. Thank you. I appreciate that.

And I appreciate your advice. And thank you for having me so that I could have that conversation and get that. I appreciate it. Well, I hope we'll be able to check in with you and see how it all goes. Yes, thank you. I love that. Bye, Alex. Bye.

Thank you so much. Bye. Oh, that was perfect. Awesome. I love it. Yeah. Yes. Really connecting the dots here.

Oh, good. Yeah. And I loved what you said, too, about gender being so separate from the actual physical sex. It actually goes with another question that someone wrote in, but this one really directly relates to what you were saying. So this question is from Monica, whose child Kira has told Monica that they'd like to go by they, them pronouns.

So Monica says, Dear Chelsea, love the podcast. We have a 15-year-old daughter who came out to us as non-binary a few months ago. She tells us that all of her friends refer to her as they slash them. A couple of years ago, she told us she was bisexual. I laughed and told her that it was a trend. I didn't handle that well, obviously, trying to do this one better. We live in Boulder, Colorado, in a very liberal setting where it's hard to tell if this is a trendy choice or an actual feeling that she's going with. several of her friends are either bisexual non-binary or trans we love that this generation

can explore their sexuality unlike we were able to do growing up the hard part is the labels i feel like at this point in her life she doesn't have to label her sexuality am i wrong my husband and i don't feel comfortable referring to her as they slash them we're both very open and liberal we believe that people should love whomever they want to love to find happiness for some reason we're having a hard time with this one we support her in every single way and whoever she wants to love we completely support she's single at the moment the issue is the pronouns we've talked to her about this and have told her that we support her but we don't feel comfortable switching pronouns at this point she says she understands are my husband and i complete assholes thanks

for your time monica well thank you katherine for sharing monica's question there's so much to say about her reflections. The first broadest statement to make is the more you know, the less you see. And what that means is the way the brain is constructed, it kind of has a way of learning, learning, learning, learning, learning, and then to speed things up, it then makes categories, which have concepts then that emerge from them and words like boy or girl. so by the time you're you know very young you figured out okay i'm a boy i'm a girl you know that one's a boy that one's a girl you know so those are categories right and they kind of make sense from anatomy but as we pointed out your assigned sex which is what your external anatomy

is is actually not always correlated with the feeling inside of who you are or the feeling of who you're sexually aroused by that often comes up. Initially, you can feel it when you're four or five, then it kind of goes quiet for a little while, but then it gets really active around 11, 12, 13 when adolescence hits. So, you know, sexual orientation is the phrase we use for who you're sexually attracted to. And so it can be for people of your same assigned sex, and you call that one something or a different assigned sex, and we call that something else. And so being open to your sexual orientation, who you're attracted to, that's one thing. So when you use a word like bisexual, that's different than the they-them story. So we should just be really clear about

that. So the they-them is about gender identity. What I like to do, if Monica were here, I'd ask her, but I'll ask you, Catherine, and you, Chelsea, about this. People have asked me to put my gender identity in my little box at the bottom of a Zoom call or any kind of platform I'm on. And I thought about it, and I thought, you know, I actually don't feel like particularly a he. I don't feel like a she. I don't feel like a they. Actually, I barely feel like a Dan. I know that's kind of an illusion, too. So I've been putting ABCD, which is like an abbreviation for a body called Dan, you know, because even that's an illusion, you know, we're all kind of manifestations of the same essence, popping up in a body for about 100 years. So 100 Jesus, Dan,

I mean, yeah, well, that's a long time. I know, but I can take it. Okay, fine. So anyway, let's just put it that way, you know, so I say that because the world needs us to broaden our identity from just the bodies we're in and realize in terms of racial justice, social justice issues and racism, you know, we're part of one human family. And, and also we're part of the family of all living beings in terms of what we're, we're destroying biodiversity and the climate. So yeah, they say, say whether he or she or they, and I go, well, actually I want to say none of the above, which is a lot to write. And then it gets people angry. So when I don't put it on my little name tag it's not it's not because i'm being like dismissive of it i actually i i

don't want to be put in a bind so i don't know how do you the two of you feel when people ask you to do that because it's it's a personal very personal thing catherine you identify right you label that i know on your emails and everything yeah i do i i do it really as a a support for people who may not use traditional pronouns. And it was tricky for me in the beginning. I have a few friends who are non-binary and it was tricky in the beginning. And now just after practicing, it sort of suddenly feels like the most natural thing in the world. Like I said to my husband today, you know, we're going to our friend Ash's birthday and it's at, you know, seven o'clock and they want us to be there. And it just suddenly feels like the most natural thing in the world

to use those pronouns for someone else. It takes a little bit of practice, but you can come around. Yeah. And more importantly, it's important to respect people's decisions about themselves, whether it's a fad or a trend. That's not your decision either. Even though you're a parent, you don't get to decide if it's a fad or a trend. But respecting your child's decision and respecting their choices goes a long way into the future of your relationship with your child. When you give them agency and you give them license to be themselves, then it's not going to be a problem if in five years she's like he or she or they decides that they want to be referred to as a girl again or that they're not, they don't feel non-binary or any of it. But I think you are

doing your child a disservice when you're not respecting something that is not an easy thing for them to say. It's not easy for that. You have to think about that, you know, and you can say you're supportive, but that you're not, you don't feel comfortable calling them they is actually not really being supportive. Yeah. And the other thing too, is it's not a huge thing to give away. You know, it's not changing who your child is fundamentally. It's not, it's not a wild leap to say, you know what, I'm, I'm just going to go with this. I'm going to say they, them, I might slip up, but I'm going to try my best. And, you know, supporting your child in whatever way you can. And like Chelsea said, these things can pass or maybe they won't. And you're allowing your child to discover who they are by supporting who they are right now, because that is always going to change. Whether their pronouns change or not, they're going to continue to change. Yeah, I concur with what you're both saying. And I think it becomes challenging when parents get really upset when some schools, like here in Los Angeles, they'll have a whole day of discussing gender identity and that you have choices of names you used and you should look inward, which I think is actually fantastic.

And some parents get all agitated about it because they think it is making a child be confused. But it's actually, I think, just informing a child and freeing a child like Monica's daughter is, or I don't know if you'd use the word daughter here, Monica's child, let's say it that way. So we have a moment where, as a parent, you can take a deep breath and say, if your child comes to you, to empower them to explore the actual biological reality that gender identity is independent of assigned sex at birth. People I remember when I was a kid where that wasn't a part of our discussion, they suffered so much. And when schools introduced this or this podcast or all the ways we can just make it a part of our conversation, it is a biological fact that gender identity develops in its own way that can be independent in an extreme or subtly or align with your assigned sex. So to name it as something that's very real in our lives, I think is going to really help with everyone. Even if your gender identity matches your assigned sex, you're going to understand that there are other people where that's not the case. and instead of feeling uncomfortable like monica feels which you know we feel uncomfortable when things don't match our expectations so i hope listening to this conversation will help monica and her child's father to feel we're learning something too and to be lifelong learners is is a really important stance to take the jonas brothers are running it back

We live the Burning Up Tour and celebrate the biggest Jonas Brothers hits that have defined a generation. One incredible celebration. One unforgettable night. See the Jonas Brothers live at RBC Amphitheater, September 28th. Get tickets now at Ticketmaster.ca. Jonas Brothers, the Burning Up Tour, all over again. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months. I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files. I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.

It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages.

On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I chose option B. I'm Julie Pinheiro, and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first.

I'm on a mission to reclaim the word solita, trading the pity for possibility. Every time I tried to be alone, I kept meeting people and they were like, you smiled at us. Not a lot of people smile around here. It's when you're alone that you're most receptive to the world as it is and not the lies you're sold about it. It can be a time where you push your limits,

change your mind, or wake up to a new version of yourself. So whether you're a solo travel veteran or you're too nervous to book your first trip, I hope you listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb. If you know me, you know I'm always searching for inspiration and useful tools to maximize joy. So this podcast lets us uncover those things together through meaningful conversations with fascinating people. Like when my friend Henry Winkler offered advice to aspiring actors and really anybody hoping to stand out. You're not hired just to fill time and space. You're hired to fill the space with you.

You have something in your guts. You go with it. And Shawn Johnson recalled the moment she realized her now-husband, Andrew, was the one. He was just so unapologetically himself and knew nothing of Hollywood. He hadn't been on a plane before without his family. It was so pure.

Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Our last caller today is Katie. Katie says, Dear Chelsea, the last nearly two years of my life have been the most intense, devastating, and transformational time of my entire 21 years. In September of 2020, my older brother and only sibling died extremely suddenly from a brain aneurysm at 22 years old. Needless to say, this loss has been extremely difficult to navigate, and my entire outlook on life has completely changed.

I know you were very young when you lost your brother and I feel as though we're similar in how that type of loss affected us. After the first few months of complete shock and fear that I would lose my parents to heartbreak over the death of their son, I started to get really angry at the world, which was completely unlike my old self.

I have done a lot of therapy to overcome some of that anger, but I still struggle daily to comprehend how my smart, wonderful, and seemingly perfectly healthy brother is gone and never coming back. I also find meeting new people to be emotionally draining as sometimes the do you have siblings question comes up and without fail, this always makes me spiral. I feel nervous opening up about my brother because I feel like people in their early 20s are not equipped to talk about loss and death. It's almost taboo in some ways. What has helped you with accepting and understanding such severe and sudden loss at

such a young age? And how do I combat how his death has caused me to struggle with coping in other areas of my life? Katie. Hi, Katie. Hi. Hi, Katie. It's your lucky day because my psychiatrist Dan is here with us as our guest today. Oh, wow. Who helped guide me through my grief and my new reality, which I had, you know, a lot of delayed grief. So it's good that you're talking about it not so long after it's happening and that you're facing these issues because it is a big, big, unexpected obstacle that has happened to you. And it's not something that you're not going to get through, but it's so difficult. And only other people who have lost a sibling can really relate or understand. So Dan, do you want to take the lead on this? And I'll chime in.

Sure. First of all, Katie, thank you so much for reaching out to Chelsea to really share your experience and share your question, I'll ask you when you were actually putting this question together and sending it off, what were you feeling inside of you that allowed you to feel like you could articulate it and in a sense, go public with it? What was going on inside of you? It was honestly Chelsea, because I watched Evolution with my mom. And I don't think either of us had ever really seen somebody talk about death like so raw and just so open like that and I don't know it just like really spoke to me and we didn't say a word the entire time all we did was cry and laugh and yeah I don't know I just felt so kind of like I felt empowered by it and I

was like you know what I'd love to talk to her because there was a lot of parallels between what you were saying and what I've definitely been feeling and so yeah I definitely felt like there was like a bit of a connection there and like you guys said like not a lot of people go through what I've gone through and and Chelsea has so yeah definitely that was empowering for me when you saw that someone could really look at the death of a sibling in this case you know you both share the loss of your brothers was there something in what Chelsea shared in evolution that especially spoke to you yeah absolutely I think the main thing was like the anger because I was never an angry person. I was always really calm, you know, quite put together and everything. And

then I started to have these feelings of anger when the numbness started to go away. And it just was so unlike me. And I was just so kind of mad at the world like that it took him because he was just such a wonderful, kind human. And he truly just like, he was just such a light in this world and it just felt so wrong. And so the anger that she had and how that leaks into other areas of your life I think that's kind of where I drew like a lot like I just I just totally connected to that because it was like whoa this is affecting how I see every area of my life not just death and loss it was you know in school with friends everything then bitterness too when people talked about like their siblings and it was like I'm self-aware enough to know like it's not right

I don't want to be bitter about other people because they should get to express their love for their siblings that are alive. And, and that makes me happy. I'm still happy for them, but I couldn't help, but still feel bitter, you know, and angry. So definitely those feelings of anger that Chelsea talked about, I definitely connected to that a lot. That's what made me start to realize, well, like I gotta, I have to seek out like therapy and stuff like that because I tried to do it myself for, I think the first eight months and yeah, it just wasn't working and I could just see down the line, it would just start to get worse. I want to just jump in and just say you have such a huge opportunity for growth right now for you to be facing this

So soon after it happened means like you have such a bigger advantage like I didn't face this I went 30 years without being able to deal with my emotions, you know So you're so young and you're vibrant and you're going to be able to get through this and I just want to say something That's so important for you to hear It's like you when you think of how amazing your brother was and what a light he was in this world he would hate to see you in pain he would hate to see you feeling bitter he would not want that so in honor of him you've got to do the work to get yourself out of that anger and bitterness because you want to be able to celebrate a life that he had and live your life with him in it

in honor of him and with him because he's still with you you know just because he's he's gone doesn't mean he's gone from you he's still within you and your parents and that is a beautiful thing And that is the light that you should think about getting to spread when you move forward in your life. Yeah, absolutely. And he truly would be so unhappy. He would be so upset if he saw like this affect us long term, because again, like just such a selfless human being. And he just would not, he would not, he'd be angry with us, to be honest, if we let it get us down for a really long time, he would not be happy with us for sure. it's such a beautiful invitation katie that you're inviting us to really look this question what helped and chelsea you're bringing up you know this notion of what the sibling what the brother would actually want for you the experience of grief which is the word we use for when someone we love that's really important our life dies or goes away and we can't reach them that loss

is huge. So grief goes through stages and it really invites you to bring into awareness all the different feelings you're having. And as Chelsea points out, you are doing that, Katie, and your notion of self-awareness is really important. And there are things you can do to expand that. With Chelsea, we would do meditation in particular, this thing called the Wheel of awareness. You can get this book called Aware or Becoming Aware is the workbook where you will learn to actually enrich that ability to be aware. And that can help the grief process to just let the anger there be in awareness. You don't have to do anything with it. It can just teach you something. The other emotions that are really basic when something like this happens are sadness

sadness and fear. So a loss like this at a young age, that can rock your world because you don't expect someone young to die. You expect someone older, way older to die. So when something unexpected like that happens, it can lead to fear, it can lead to sadness, and it can lead to anger where the fear is like, oh my God, things aren't safe, nothing, I can't rely on anything. The Sadness is there was a connection that's ripped from me and I have such a longing to be with my brother, but it's just, it's not there when in fact, it's just like Chelsea said, he's inside you, but him being alive in his body now, that's changed. So you want to deal with that feeling. You can't just call him up and talk to his actual self. You can deal with the inner self of your brother. and the anger you know is about something is wrong that needs to be righted right so anger is like this drive to correct you know sadness is like a drive to connect and in many ways fear is a drive to protect right those are the three in in the brain they're deep deep in the brain so

they're really really foundational as you're pointing out the anger then starts spreading over all these things. So the idea of finding a practice, whether it's in therapy or doing like a meditation, that gives you time to just be with your emotions. And then the grief process, once you give yourself that respect to just feel what you feel, talk about it, write in a journal about it, do meditative reflection on it, then it will have its natural course. Don't worry about the timing, but do give respect to all the emotions are there and they will then take their natural path. And in many ways, grief as it goes forward becomes meaning making. That is to say, I didn't plan for my brother to die, but my brother would want me to actually make sense of

how this has impacted me. And as Chelsea has done with her wonderful work now, Take a loss that really, as you've shared with the world, Chelsea, you know, your way of dealing with that pain was to shut it off the emotions, but now to share with the world, you don't know, Katie, how the sadness and really profound loss of your brother dying unexpectedly like this, it was no one's fault, aneurysms happen. And all the ways that you can bring the emotional learning from this will be a meaning that you can make. And there's a number of things about hope and about joy that there are wonderful books on this. There's a book called The Book of Hope and A Book of Joy that I think you'd love because what it says is that the sorrows in the world, whether it's a personal loss or the loss in biodiversity, what we're facing with the climate or the challenges of social justice, all these can get us all angry sad fearful and what we want to do is take those emotions and allow ourselves to feel them fully but then really keep hope alive a kind of active hope

that a writer named joanna macy calls it active hope where you're really turning that pain into actually something positive in the world and not only having hope but having a sense of joy and i think if your brother were watching us now and he said my dear sister katie can hold on to hope and can be joyful in this life what would he feel about that yeah that's a really good point now let's move me to tears that's really good yeah i i honestly like you you bring up a really good point too and the fact that like i have grown like so much from this loss and like the way i view the world in good ways too. And, and my desire to make my parents proud, even though I know I would make them proud if I did nothing, because they're just the most wonderful people

in the entire world. But yeah, like he really has allowed me to see the world so much, so much clearer. And I just feel like I'm going to do such great things because I've grown so much from this. And yeah, you're right. Like it is, it is a choice to, to wake up every single day and, you know, choose happiness despite all the pain. And that's what I've really been working on is just choosing to be happy because at the end of the day, you know, like the random cruelty of him being taken away, it has to be a choice for me to, to keep going and to do it for him and to do it for my parents. And, and I find that that's really helped me too, is like, but letting myself feel those emotions and, and yeah, growing from it, like you said, like it, it is, there's power

in that. There's also something Dan taught me. Losing somebody is like a robbery. You've been robbed, you know, and that's how it feels. It feels you're violated and you cannot make sense of it. But are you going to spend your entire life harboring such anger towards those robbers? You know what I mean? Because are you going to spend your energy doing that? No, you're not. You want to be a light for your parents. You want to be help your parents heal. It's not your responsibility, but you can, you know, you can be a light for them as well. And when you're talking about emotions coming up, something that Dan and I talked about a lot was like, where are you feeling something? You know, are you feeling it in your chest? Do you feel it in

your stomach? Being in touch with your body and respecting yourself enough to sit with it. You know, when you're overcome, you're allowed to go outside and cry and sit there for 20 minutes because once you extinguish it, there is a lightness of being that happens. And it's when you resist your emotions where you get into trouble. So it's okay to feel all those emotions and let them out and know, okay, oh, I'm feeling, okay, I'm feeling this. Sometimes it takes 30 seconds just to sit with yourself. And sometimes you need an hour, whatever it is you need, you know, you need and you'll know, but, but being respectful of that. So you're not repressing or suppressing anything so that it's not creeping up on you later. You know, that you're experiencing

everything and thinking about where it is in your body. Like, oh, I'm heavy in my chest right now. Okay. I feel like I'm going to cry. Okay. Now I'm going to cry. It sounds almost pedantic in a way, but it's so important to respect yourself and your emotions. And that's how you get through something like this in a healthy way, because you are going to be in a place where the pain it's no longer as acute as it feels today. You are. That's what happens with life. You're going to move on. There are going to be moments where you're going to feel extreme joy again, and you may already have, and that's part of healing. That's part of healing because you're still here. So everything that is coming up, it's just, you know, you obviously want to be with a therapist

and talking with somebody too. You need that kind of support right now for sure. Are you seeing someone right now? Yeah. Yeah. I have a therapist. Yeah. Yeah. And she's really great. Yeah. So all of those things are helpful. And just, you know, remembering that there is no wrong feeling or emotion. There's nothing wrong. This is all just a process and it doesn't last forever. No, that's really great. Like, thank you. And I just want to say thank you to you as well, because honestly, yeah, like listening to your podcast and watching your standup has really helped me a lot. And I just think it's so brave of you. And yeah, again, really empowered me as well. Oh, thank you. I'm so glad you called in. And I'm so glad we had Dan here today for you.

Yeah, it was so nice to meet you as well, Dan. Thank you so much, Katie. Nice to meet you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks, Katie. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Wow. What a sweetie. Yeah. Wow. Okay, well, that was quite a heavy episode today. It was. I do have one little extra thing as we move into this close Kelsey emailed us and said I recently went through a massive life change which led me to changing careers moving states and finally getting out of a long-term toxic relationship I read life will be the death of me and it inspired me to get back into therapy and really try to delve into the deep childhood trauma your story resonated with me I was sitting outside my therapist office today and debated going in and was questioning whether this was where I needed

to be. I put out into the world that I needed a sign. I went into therapy, and halfway through, my therapist pulled out an orange out of her bag, tossed it to me, and said, I think you need this today. I stared at her in shock and then subsequently lost it, and then had to explain that I was inspired to get back into therapy after reading Chelsea's book, and that someone tossing me an orange was an unexpected sign of compassion when I needed it the most. An orange unraveled me and gave me the sign that I'm exactly where I need to be.

Our journeys are not the same, but thank you for sharing yours and inspiring me to heal so that I can find my happy and success as well. It's already working. Much love and admiration, Kelsey. Oh my God, that makes me cry. Dan, can you believe that? No, that's incredible.

That is so beautiful. Oh. Wow. I was sitting the other day I got some shitty news I was sitting the other day with Joe and we were somewhere oh yeah it was when I had to go to the hospital and when the next day we're sitting down I was just like oh my god what's wrong with me I'm so stressed out I landed myself in the hospital like I didn't think I was stressed out and we were just sitting in this restaurant and at a hotel and I was just looking at him like just so confused about where I was in my life like

I thought I was doing so great and I was on top of everything and I had learned how to deal with everything. And I looked down and there's this whole tree of oranges right behind us. And I was like, oh my God. And I go, look. And he's like, see, you're okay. You're okay. You're always okay. It's just a little hiccup. So I love that. Oh, Kelsey, thanks for sharing that with us. That was so nice. So emotional. I love it. Yeah. Okay. Let's take a quick break because I just, I have a new loofah that I want to try out on Catherine. I'm sorry. Does that sound like?

Workplace. Workplace, professionalism. Times have changed, and someone has to respect that. And that someone is me. That's right. So I apologize, Catherine, about the loofah comment. It's okay. I love a soft scrub.

And Brad, I apologize to you, too, about the loofah comment. Gosh, that's your husband right in front of him. I know. It's okay. He wouldn't mind. It'll be fine. It'll be fine. Let's take a break.

Okay. The Jonas Brothers are running it back. We live the Burning Up Tour and celebrate the biggest Jonas Brother hits that have defined a generation. One incredible celebration. One unforgettable night. See the Jonas Brothers live at RBC Amphitheater, September 28th. Get tickets now at Ticketmaster.ca. Jonas Brothers, the Burn It Up Tour, all over again.

When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months. I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files. I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, Shut up. Don't say anything. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.

They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.

I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.

Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages. On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus, or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I chose option B.

I'm Julie Pinheiro, and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word solita, trading the pity for possibility. Every time I tried to be alone, I kept meeting people and they were like, you smiled at us. Not a lot of people smile around here.

It's when you're alone that you're most receptive to the world as it is and not the lies you're sold about it. It can be a time where you push your limits, change your mind, or wake up to a new version of yourself. So whether you're a solo travel veteran or you're too nervous to book your first trip, I hope you listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb. If you know me, you know I'm always searching for inspiration and useful tools to maximize joy. So this podcast lets us uncover

those things together through meaningful conversations with fascinating people. Like when my friend Henry Winkler offered advice to aspiring actors and really anybody hoping to stand out. You're not hired just to fill time and space. You're hired to fill the space with you. You have something in your guts, you go with it. And Shawn Johnson recalled the moment she realized her now-husband, Andrew, was the one. He was just so unapologetically himself and knew nothing of Hollywood. He hadn't been on a plane before without his family. It was so pure.

Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Dan, what advice do you need for me? Well, I asked you earlier, you know, how do you keep that lifelong learning approach going? Yes. And the related thing was how did you let yourself be open to really facing your emotional life there? And then a bonus question for you, which from our relationship, you'll probably think this is. Dan is never short winded, everybody.

is how did humor enter your life so we can try to be inspired not to be funny stand-ups like you are but to just make sure that in the face of all the challenges we keep our humor alive yeah i god i don't know if you can i don't know if that's a learned thing or if that's inherent you know i think i was born with that because my family was just we're all like that like sarcasm was our was our function you know like everything was sarcastic to deal with the lameness like we just are we're constantly like oh like our parents were lame growing up was just lame our birthdays our parents trying to like celebrate our birthdays was lame so we just had these built-in senses of humor to cope with it but I don't I can't really speak to whether or not you can you know adopt it

I think it's important to remember not to take yourself so seriously right you're not the only person on this planet there's a million billions of things going on around you and you're just what you want to bring is light and happiness and joyfulness right to the table to the energy field around you to the people that you come in contact with so i think humor plays into that to be light and happy and set a tone and inspire people to be open and yeah i guess you know just try not to take yourself so seriously. You got to be able to laugh at all the bad stuff, too, because there's humor in everything. Sometimes you have to look a little harder for it, but it's there. Beautiful. Well, that's great because that actually relates to the other questions that

you've already answered, you know, how to keep those questions going and really keep an open mind to grow throughout life. So, Chelsea, thank you so much. Catherine, thank you so much. It's really an honor to be here with you and really a joy to speak with all the people who had questions today. And I feel very privileged to be here. So thank you. Oh, thank you so much, Dan. I know that you usually charge for this kind of advice, so I appreciate you volunteering your services. Well, I feel like I'm enriched just like working with you, Chelsea. This has really been a great conversation today. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you so much, Dan. I really appreciate it. I'll See you soon.

Great. You will. Thanks, Dan. Thanks, Catherine. Thank you so much for tuning in to Dear Chelsea Season 2. We'll be back with another season May 12th. See you then. I survived nine months in captivity,

and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. Abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And no one gets mad at their publicist for letting them do our show.

We've had a lot of great guests like Sarah Sherman, Adam Scott, Danny McBride, Ben Stiller, and a lot of other big shots that wouldn't be where they are without us. Listen to Hollywood Handbook on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I chose option B. I'm Julie Pinheiro, and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word solita, trading the pity for possibility. Listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home pro society is a weekly podcast that's part book club part group chat for anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse each week we're connecting the dots between books the internet and pop culture with your favorite writers book talk creators and plenty of overthought opinions yeah i'm obsessed i'm obsessed listen to pro society on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nick Totoro. You probably know me from NYPD Blue, The Longest Yard, or Spike Lee's Black Klansman. And on my new podcast, Delivering Happiness with Nick Totoro,

I deliver pizza to a new guest. I've shared a slice with everyone from Seth Rollins. What are you doing with my belt? To Bill Burr. I don't think I've ever met somebody so exactly out of their mind as I am. And now we even have more great guests coming up, including the great John Turturro. It's called happiness, delivering happiness and many, many more. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search delivering happiness with Nick Turturro and listen now. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.