Life Will Be the Death of Me with Chelsea Handler - Drug Tips 101 with Alek Keshishian

Episode Date: August 29, 2019

Chelsea is joined in studio by her friend, Alek Keshishian for a mindful discussion about ketamine Infusions, psychedelics and mental health.Credits:Host: Chelsea HandlerGuest: Alek KeshishianExecutive Producer: Conal Byrne Producers: Sophie Lichterman, Jack O’Brien Writers: Jamie Loftus, Anna Hossnieh & Sophie Lichterman  Consulting Producers: Nick Stumpf, Miles Gray, & Anna HossniehThis episode was Engineered, Mixed & Edited by: Danl Goodman Music by: KingsburyOrder: "Life Will Be the Death of Me"Available in stores and online now Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Crave, Netflix, and Disney Plus from $94 a month. Price guaranteed for two years on internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit. Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability. Bell. Connection is everything. I survived nine months in captivity, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions. Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Chelsea Handler. Welcome to Life Will Be the Death of Me, a production of iHeartRadio. We are here today in studio again. I'm enjoying my in-studio interviews with a very dear friend of mine. And he has been recently taking ketamine. What's the proper word?

Ketamine infusions. Ketamine infusions. You've been taking them. You've been doing them. What's the proper verbiage for that? i've been um i've been doing ketamine infusions okay so because of depression and i know a lot of people are interested i certainly am after reading michael pollan's book about psychedelics about psilocybin about all the different kind of like ptsd trauma that it helps either kind of diminish or deteriorate or ameliorate so whether it's acid whether it's mdma whether whether it's psilocybin or ketamine, this is kind of the new wave of psychedelics and this kind of, there's a new acceptance happening of people and neuroscientists and psychiatrists

and psychologists using it to help patients. So I wanted to talk to you about your experience, Alec, because I've known you for how long, how many years have we been engaged? A long time. Like, is it coming up to 10 years? Yeah. Probably 10 years. Okay.

And Brandon, how long have I known you? Three years. Okay. Three years. Okay, good to know. And I'm 44. Okay. So talk to me a little bit about your research and why you decided to start ketamine infusions. Okay. Well, I've had depression probably from my mid-20s. So I've been on that, the word you hate, journey. I've tried to figure that out for a couple of decades now.

And I've been on antidepressants most of my life, I guess, all different kinds. And while they definitely stabilize one's mood or my mood, they didn't necessarily return me to a place that I would characterize as what I remembered when I was not depressed. And so when I started reading about ketamine and ketamine infusions, the thing that intrigued me was that ketamine seems to work on a completely different basis than any antidepressant. antidepressant. Most antidepressants that are used today are called SSRI, and so they have a specific mechanism in the brain. Ketamine, which weirdly scientists don't, and doctors don't fully understand why exactly it's having such a strong antidepressive effect. Nonetheless, they do know that it works completely differently than SSRI. So I was just intrigued to see, could that, restore more joy into my life. So while I was stabilized, I wanted to see if I could return

to a place where I was even happier. Okay. And so you're still on your antidepressants and you do the ketamine infusion. Yes, I'm on antidepressants. And ketamine is kind of an adjunct therapy for me. Ketamine has great speed in its action, which is why it's kind of revolutionary for people with suicidal tendencies because the anti-suicidal effect is almost immediate whereas most antidepressants require like anywhere from three to six weeks to build in your system and even then you don't know whether an antidepressant a particular one is going to work for you or not but especially for patients who are suicidal obviously that's too long a period to wait. And so one of the most groundbreaking things about ketamine was that

it has an immediate effect. So yeah, for me, though, ketamine, I wasn't suicidal by any means. I was managing on my antidepressants, but I was intrigued and I wanted to see if ketamine infusions could make me better. So around a year and a half ago, I went down to La Jolla and I did a series of around seven or eight ketamine infusions because initially they kind of suggest that you do a series of them with a few days apart between each infusion. And then after that, there really isn't any clear-cut guidance or guideline about how often you need to do it from that point on

or if you need to do it. And I think it's an individual thing. Like in my case, well, after the first eight, I waited like six months. I didn't feel the need. And then I started doing like once every four weeks or so, but there's nothing hard and fast about that. So, but what are those infusions look like? Is somebody sitting there with you? Like, what are you taking? Because remember, I put you in touch with a friend of mine from high school who is also experimenting with ketamine infusion, and she was kind of

not taking the right cocktail. Yeah, you're right. She wasn't taking the right cocktail here's the problem with ketamine infusions is that by and large it's like a little bit the wild west in terms of how doctors are giving it because it's a drug that was created as an anesthetic and used in the vietnam war and then ketamine then became used widely by vets and you know obviously as a party drug sometimes but once its therapeutic you know quality was discovered, the doctors giving it tended to be anesthesiologists and not necessarily psychiatrists. One of the reasons I went to La Jolla was because I found a psychiatrist who was giving ketamine. When I returned to Los Angeles, my first ketamine infusion in Los Angeles was a horrible experience

because I went to an anesthesiologist who basically stuck me in a dark room and told me to lie on the exam table. It was completely pitch black when he left, the door closed, and I had a horrible experience. So when I spoke to your friend, she too had gone to one of these clinics that were giving ketamine infusions, but they had not only given her ketamine, but they had mixed it for no good reason with propofol. Which is that Michael Jackson drug? Which is the Michael Jackson. It's like another anesthetic, which has no help for depressive purposes. But I imagine they gave it to knock her out so that she wouldn't require any supervision while she had the ketamine. So it's a tricky thing. You have to make sure that you find

someplace where there is going to be either a doctor or a nurse practitioner with you in that room while you have the infusion. And a lot of places don't do that. And so when you do sit down in the right environment, you want to sit down with somebody, like, are you setting an intention for your experience? Are you going there to resolve a specific issue or just for your overall better well-being? I think you're going to get an overall benefit. It's a little different than, let's say, if you're creating an intention for a psilocybin or an LSD trip therapeutically. That's discussed more. They don't really talk about ketamine intention.

That said, though, I have definitely found that before a ketamine infusion, I can set not an intention so much as like a subject I want to explore. In fact, when I was in La Jolla, you and I were working on a TV project. And there were a couple of infusions where before I did them, I was like, I wish I could figure out what we're going to do with that series. And during the course of the ketamine trip, as I call them, I did kind of go into some thought processes and came out with certain insights and kind of breakthroughs. I think I called you a lot of times right after those. Yeah, you did. And sometimes, interestingly, you come out of your ketamine infusion and you're like very kind of off. It takes a moment to adjust. And like, for instance, this week,

you said, I'm going to stay, protect myself for the next 24 hours because I'm in this state where you kind of have to digest what you've experienced. That's a really good point. The thing with ketamine is sometimes you come out of it and you feel really happy. And that happens, I'd say, like 70% of the time. But there are other times where after an infusion where you feel a little more vulnerable. And one of my psychiatrists who does ketamine infusion told me, because I had one experience where I did ketamine and then I went out to dinner with a group of people who were very anxious and fear-based and very negative. And the next morning I woke up and my mood had plunged. And my psychiatrist explained that you're kind of more open right after a ketamine infusion

because your brain is actually creating new synapses. That's what the beginning of research is showing, that it's actually ketamine over the course of 24 to 48 hours begins to create new synapses. And so during that period, it's better for you to be creating synapses on like happier pathways than on anxious pathways. So his suggestion, which I'm trying to put into practice now is, yeah, for like the first 24 hours, or certainly for the first evening, just staying in, you know, being kind of reflective, doing things that kind of... Masturbating. Yeah, there you go. Anything that brings you joy.

Anything that brings you joy. An explosion of joy. Anything that brings you closer to yourself. After the ketamine treatment, could being alone have an adverse effect on people though? Like if you are a depressive person or someone who gets anxious, would it be better for you or for someone per se to be in a group of happy people or doing something active that makes them happy? I don't think there's a hard and fast rule, but I would say that no, because right after ketamine, you're not feeling particularly lonely.

Like, you're in a pretty nice state. It's more dangerous to subject yourself to anxiety or anything that's stressful. Or new. You want to go to your safe spot. For him, that means he goes home and hangs out by himself. Like, I can call Chelsea. In fact, I do. She's usually my first call after my ketamine because I'm usually like, you know, very anxious to tell her what I experienced.

But there are certain incoming calls that I won't take anymore, you know, right after a ketamine. And a lot of times that has to do with work or – Right. But also, I mean, I think all these drugs are interesting because everybody has a different – you know, like when you're talking about microdosing. You know, I did mushrooms at my house this weekend with a bunch of people recreationally. I did chocolate mushrooms. And they were really, really mellow and really mild. And in that kind of environment, now that I know what I do about these hallucinogens,

I try to be really mindful. Instead of just taking drugs to party and laugh my ass off, I try and actually really enjoy the moment and really be present in the moment. Now they're prescribing psilocybin, microdosing, I mean, for research in a research state. Prescribing might be. Well, I'm prescribing it to my friends. I have a surplus of it. I can picture you going at CBS and going, hi, I need my psilocybin dose.

Give it to me now. It's called Chelsea Handler. Okay, we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back. Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Crave, Netflix, and Disney Plus from $94 a month. Price guaranteed for two years on internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit. Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability. Bell, connection is everything. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.

I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files. I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.

They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments,

nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

See you between the pages. I was skiing. Where was I skiing? I don't know, Sun Valley maybe this winter. And somebody said, oh yeah, I have a bunch of fungi. And I went, is that what we're calling it now? And she said, yeah, it's microdosing psilocybin. And so we all took some, obviously, because anything that's available to me, I'll just eat.

and I noticed the tiniest kickup. I was just awake a little bit more. I wasn't hallucinating by any means, but everything was a little bit more sparkly, much the same as it is if I were to take an edible while I was skiing, you know, like a micro-dosed edible. But with that, you know a little bit about that too because there's like suggested cycles

when you're supposed to take that, correct? Yeah, micro-dosing is another kind of modality that is being heavily researched now for depression. And that seems to work on a different level than ketamine. And basically, most psychedelics, what research shows is that they tamp down the brain default mode network. And the brain default mode network, which is kind of a prefrontal brain thing,

is basically what kind of serves as a traffic warden in your brain And it kind of stops certain connections and keeps you, if you want to call it, kind of feeling sane. But it also keeps you very much ego-based, very much about your own kind of history like this is my past, this is my present, this is my future. So that's what the brain default mode network does. And what they've realized is psilocybin or LSD or any number of these things seems to suppress that. And so suddenly you're making connections in your brain that you don't usually make, and they've noticed that that can have even more long-term effects on depression. That's been shown with megadoses of psilocybin or LSD, where they're seeing, like, depression going away for months, if not even years. By one megadose of mushroom?

By one megadose of, yeah, psilocybin. That is a retreat I could have at my house for people. I mean, I would totally be willing to supply that. Yeah, it is illegal. Okay, well, then I'll change my address. So you could move to the Netherlands, though, where it is actually. Don't think I'm not thinking about moving to the Netherlands. Brandon, can you please find me a house?

You call the Netherlands. I'm working with real estate agents all over. Don't worry about it. Yeah, ski season is coming, so we have to get creative. She's trying to find out drug laws in all different countries. In Spain, by the way, in Spain it's legal to do mushrooms, and I have a house there, so don't think that's a coincidence. so micro dosing though is basically taking that same philosophy and kind of saying

okay if you take a micro dose over time can that have the same effect and there isn't proof yet either way but in both these situations and one of the things you just said about like when you do chocolate mushrooms the setting and the scene is incredibly important so again a little bit like ketamine, like it's really important who you do it with, whether you feel safe, whether you like the space you're in, all that stuff. And that has effects even in terms of what your takeaway is from it. So I think that's true for ketamine as well, which is why I say like make sure that the place you're going feels comfortable, like the room you're doing it in, that you feel a connection or you feel safe with the nurse or the doctor giving it to you,

those things actually seem to affect the result. So microdosing is basically just a mini psilocybin dose. But I found when I attempted it that it corresponded very much with what my state of mind was before I did it. So if I was like a little anxious that day, it would make me more anxious. If I wasn't anxious or I was feeling creative, it would make me a little bit more creative. And I personally decided I didn't want to go either of those ways. And that's when I took those mushrooms from you and decided to use them for myself.

Thank you for making me your dealer. So that didn't work for you. Now, a couple of the other things, because a lot, you know, like, for instance, ayahuasca isn't a drug that people who are taking an antidepressant are supposed to do. Remember, we looked into that for you when I was going to do it. and anybody on an SSR1 can't take SSRIs. Well, here's the thing. I was just having this conversation.

I always get my numbers and letters confused. The thing about ayahuasca and psilocybin and LSD and antidepressants is that they all work on the serotonin kind of receptors. And most sites and most practitioners will say, oh, no, no, you shouldn't do an SSRI and then do ayahuasca or psilocybin. or LSD. And that's certainly kind of the safe kind of response. However, I've spoken to like James Fadiman, who is kind of like the god of all this. He's the original researcher. He really knows his stuff here. And if you dig deeper, what you find out is that psilocybin

deals with a different subset of your serotonin receptor than your antidepressant does. So even though most people would be like, no, no, you shouldn't be on antidepressants and take psilocybin in actual fact. And I'm not a doctor, so don't follow this advice. I'm a doctor. So, but I'm just saying in my research and my conversations with people who seem to be real, real experts, not just, you know, an article about this, they say, technically speaking, psilocybin you can take with an antidepressant, but you'll need more of it to have the same effect. But with ayahuasca, you know, it's, again, the same thing. Just to kind of bring down their liability to the lowest level possible, they say, no, you should have weaned yourself off antidepressants.

And I don't disagree with that. Like, to be honest with you, like, that's a reason I haven't taken ayahuasca. But there's another reason why, which is that— You don't want to shit your pants? Yeah, and vomit in front of you. That seems like a very valid reason. I don't have to be there. I mean, I will be filming it, obviously, but I don't have to be in the room.

iPhone. On an Instagram television. You know, someone I know who's kind of a shaman said ayahuasca is like swimming the Atlantic Ocean. And like people who do that before they've dipped their toe in anything else, it's kind of major. So I'm kind of like a little hesitant. Yeah, no, it is a very intense experience. But I did a lot of acid in high school. So I was used to that. Did you, have you ever done acid? I think I've done acid once in college. Right. The last time I did psilocybin was, you know, in my 20s.

Right. But you did try the microdosing a few months ago. I did microdosing, yeah, and stopped. And I'm not ruling out a psilocybin trip, but it would need to be in a real therapeutic setting. Like I'd like to do it with like a therapist, and that becomes a whole other hurdle because you have to do the song and dance

because it's not legal here. There are places in the Netherlands, though, where they will do a proper therapeutic psilocybin. Yeah. You've only just, what, taken an edible, Brandon? Is that correct? Yeah, I've never done anything psychedelic. Yeah, and I've seen you on an edible,

and I would recommend as a doctor that you don't take it any further. Yeah, you tell me any time you're going to take mushrooms. Brandon, can you imagine you on these? I don't think so. What would you be on? I don't know. She seems to know, though, and I trust that. I think he just gets so much out of an edible,

there's no reason to go further. Like he laughs hysterically, giggles, you know. They are doing something new out of Colorado called psychedelic cannabis trips, which is that they have certain specific hybrid strains that they use and they put headphones on a little bit like what a therapeutic psilocybin or LSD trip is supposed to do while they have a therapist there. And you have kind of a curated playlist or whatever and you do an integration before and after. but it's called psychedelic cannabis therapy. In Colorado? In Colorado, there are a few practitioners here. So that's legal.

We don't know a lot about the MDMA microdosing, right? Do you know a lot about that? I know very little about it. But I do know that MDMA and antidepressants definitely do not mix. That is where you can get into trouble. Oh, yeah, because MDMA depletes your whole serotonin bank, right? It rushes serotonin into your brain because that's like a way for days afterwards your serotonin level plunges.

But the problem is the danger is during the rush with your antidepressants, it can create something called serotonin syndrome, which is basically an overdose of serotonin that's life-threatening. Okay. Well, that's good to know because for regular people who aren't on antidepressants, there's that day of the week, I think it's usually Tuesday, where you feel, if you've taken ecstasy on Saturday, feeling great Sunday, because it's still in your body, and Monday, you're like, whoa, don't have a hangover. And then Tuesday, you want to kill yourself. And I think they call

it suicide Tuesday. We were just talking about that the other night. So there is a definite depletion. And what you can do is take B12, they say, to just kind of balance that out. But you have to take it before, during, and after. So that sometimes helps people. B-12 and folate can help people with that because B-12 and folate are what your brain needs to create neurotransmitters like serotonin. So taking a big dose of B-12 and folate is definitely something I would do if I did that, but I don't. I think a lot of people, the fear of that crash is what keeps them from doing anything psychedelic. Because I know my freshman and sophomore year of college, when all my friends were out doing ecstasy or anything psychedelic, just the fear of not knowing what that comedown was going to be like is the reason they wouldn't partake. But just so you know, you don't get that same comedown with psilocybin, LSD, or ayahuasca.

You don't comedown. That's only Molly that you have them. That's just MDMA. Yeah. Because MDMA works on the serotonin 1 receptor, which is the same as your antidepressants, but for some reason the depletion of that is a very suicidal feeling, whereas the others are dealing with a different serotonin receptor where you're not overwhelmed. But also, in terms of your depression, you've done a lot of things that have helped your mood. You've lost a lot of weight. You stopped drinking for a period of time, for a long period of time.

So as a depressive person, I mean, let's talk about that a little bit. Because when you're doing a lot, how do you know which one is really hot? Because you take supplements also. You take mood supplements. I mean, as far as drinking goes, when a person's depressed, drinking is like a wet blanket, right? Yeah. Drinking is kind of a form of self-medicating. The problem with it is that you self-medicate, but then you're also dealing with the effects of the medication.

it's a little bit like MDMA. So like initially, the medication of alcohol feels really good, especially if you have anxiety-based depression, which I kind of do. And initially, it squelches your anxiety. So that feels really like relief. But as you drink, you get rebound anxiety. So it becomes kind of this vicious cycle where you're actually creating anxiety and then putting it out at around five, you know, for your cocktail. And so it's a little like eye drops, you know, it gets the red out, but then the red comes back stronger, you know, and also all alcohol is technically a depressant. Now that's difficult to say because when someone's feeling anxious, the feeling of alcohol is incredibly powerful. It's very quick in terms of the way it gets rid

of anxiety. But as an experiment, yeah, for me, I found like, wow, when I stop drinking, you know, over the course of a week or something, I have a different energy. I mean, first of all, like, I wake up super early, super clear. You feel your feelings more, definitely. So I'm not saying that you stop drinking and suddenly you're happy. That's not it at all. In fact, in some ways, you become more sensitive to your mood. So along with stopping drinking on kind of a regular basis, I'll still drink on a special occasion or something, but I looked into supplements and genetic testing for depression. So I did that, and I found that I have a variant in my DNA that makes it difficult for me to get folate and B12 into my brain, which we were just talking about,

and B12 and folate are absolutely necessary to create serotonin, dopamine, and all those neurotransmitters. So with the help of this psychiatrist, he put me on like this dose of supplements. But you're absolutely right. In fact, I asked him, I said, how do I know which of these like 15 supplements, you know, are doing what? And is that the ketamine? Is it that? Is it? and he said it's synergistic. It's like each thing works together and the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. So you really kind of can answer the question of what's doing what exactly. Right, yeah. I think that's how a lot of people feel about it. I guess it doesn't really matter because if everything's feeling better and you're thinking more clearly and you're sharp like

you want to be and present and all of the things that you care about, then who really cares what it is as long as you know if it's a combination of things that's fine too okay well this sounds like a good time to take a break get bell pure fiber internet with crave netflix and disney plus from 94 a month price guaranteed for two years on internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit visit bell.ca for details and to check availability bell connection is everything when i was 14 years old i was kidnapped and held captive for nine months i survived and i've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the Survivor Files. I just remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying

shut up, don't say anything. Every week I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up without a doubt he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives,

and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

See you between the pages. You know, exercise helps, let's say, 10%. The supplements might help 10%, 15%. The ketamine might help 25%. The antidepressants help 40%. You know, you're kind of building using all those tools. So it's really about finding your personal cocktail. Each person has to do the work to find what's going to work for them.

Yes, and you can find good integrative psychiatrists sometimes who kind of know shit who know about like supplements and things like that like other functional ways to kind of add to your yeah it's like i wish i could tell everybody how to go get these microdosing or how to be part of a research study but for instance i was in national tennessee shooting for my documentary and one of this white rappers that i interviewed down there had tons of mushrooms and just kept handing them out to everybody. So it's like people are growing them, but there's no real like legitimate way to get them now. So that's not helpful. But the ketamine therapy is available to people in I don't know how many states. I think it's nationwide. It's

legal because ketamine, the big barrier with ketamine is the price. I mean, ketamine itself costs like nothing, but they charge like $600 in infusion. Oh, is that what it is? It's like a It's totally inflated prices. So now is that something that someone would go to their general care physician and be like, hey, I'd like to get ketamine infusion. Do they have to seek out a psychiatrist? What is the protocol? You can basically go online and see where in your city they offer ketamine infusion. But as I said, be careful because a lot of them are anesthesiologists.

That doesn't mean they can't give it. Like the one I go to now, the practice is run by an anesthesiologist. but I really like the nurse practitioner who gives the ketamine and so that's important but yeah you can just look online and see where it's offered in your city but it's not something that a GP would necessarily give and ideally if you can yeah I would always pick a psychiatrist who offers it over over any other doctor have you ever tried ketamine I mean that's something that gay boys do in the gay clubs did you know that yeah no i've snorted ketamine before when you were gay well no but she's gayer than i am so it makes sense that she knows i was with a gay guy

and he said do you want to try this and i said sure why not and i snorted it and i don't i don't know i just didn't i just felt really relaxed it wasn't anything that i wanted to snort again there are things that i would like to try like what you're already kind of coked up in in general brandon you're kind of very detailed and i didn't even take my adderall this morning alex yeah see definitely don't mix adderall with cocaine do not do that never never drug tips 101 yeah you're welcome everybody for this episode of who do you think you are so these are different modalities that are used for treating depression beyond anti-depression medicine and you've got like And ketamine, they're doing like heavy research on psilocybin.

But psilocybin is mushrooms. Psilocybin is mushrooms, magic mushrooms. Right, okay. And then the ketamine, people used to call, it was a horse tranquilizer, right? It was actually an anesthetic that was used in the Vietnam War because it had such immediate effects. On Vietnamese horses? On Vietnamese soldiers, U.S. soldiers in Vietnam.

And then it became used for in vet practices. And like a lot of things that were therapeutic, they kind of went, ooh, there's abuse potential. So, you know, it was just, you know, used mainly by vets at that point. In terms of like there's definitely a movement now where people are talking about drugs in the sense of helping themselves and helping their psyches heal from past trauma. But there was obviously a long era of people just using drugs recreationally to – Well, actually psychedelics were being researched for actual mental health benefits. And that's a whole history. I don't know the ins and outs of it, but let's put it this way.

It's interesting that the government shut that down and instead said, hey, let's create opioids that people can become addicted to that are synthetic. Yes, because that's supported by a drug company or the alcohol industry, which we know alcohol is tremendously toxic. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop right there. No, but in other words, that's toxic, whereas psychedelics do not have a toxic kind of top limit. Like there's very little evidence of any kind of great harm compared to alcohol, for example. But yet alcohol is legal and psychedelics, including magic mushrooms, are illegal. It's kind of like what – I wouldn't be surprised if in the next like several years if that doesn't change because – Yeah, I think it's going to because it's moving so fast.

This movement is kind of happening with such alacrity that there is no stopping it. And then the government realizes, oh, this is a perfect example of like grassroots, you know what I mean, activism actually working because people are saying, no, we need this to help people. And the government is kind of just having to agree with it. And that's the same with cannabis legalization across the country. But that said, psilocybin is an incredibly powerful drug. So it's not like cannabis where I think psilocybin you have to be incredibly careful about because it is so powerful. So you need to make sure you're in a safe environment, that you don't do that by yourself, and that there are other people around you who can save you. Because the problem with psychedelic drugs, really powerful psychedelics, is, God forbid, you know, you have a break or you kind of decide you want to jump off a balcony because you think you can fly.

Do you read about that, though, like people? Because I read about people having psychological breaks. I've read about that with ayahuasca. and peyote but not mushrooms well peyote is similar to mushrooms i think what they say is if you have schizophrenia kind of an undiagnosed kind of potential for that which usually reveals itself right at later in life yeah but but in other words a psychedelic can trigger that which is why like from what i've read i would never do a psychedelic completely by myself ever. I think that there, you know, you need, and ideally you need to be around somebody who

isn't necessarily flying as high as you are. I mean, it's interesting what you say though, about taking something when you're somebody's personality is heightened or whatever feeling you're feeling after your infusion, your ketamine infusion, because it's like that story about me giving chunk melatonin, but he was in such a heightened state of anxiety that giving that to him only kept him there and which my vet told me when I came back oh when somebody's in a heightened state of anxiety you any pill you take like that is just going to keep your personality there which made no sense to me well there's two things first of all I have no idea how melatonin is processed in dogs well no and second of all here's the big issue like with my dog like my dog weighs 13

pounds my mom feeds it like it's a human being who weighs 140 and then like wonders why she's fat It's like the weight of the dog requires such a smaller dose. So chances are if you gave Chunk like a human dose of melatonin, that's like an overdose. Yeah, but his doctor was prescribing him human Xanax. Human Xanax is okay, but in a tiny dose. Oh, okay. Well, it was working for me. His Xanax was working for me.

Brandon, if you could take one psychedelic trip, what would it be with? Probably mushrooms. Right. I would like you to do mushrooms at my house. I'll leave. I'll have my Bell video camera with our old VHS video camera. Why would you leave? I think you should be there.

I just don't want to deal with the drama. You know what I mean? Like if he gets all out of whack or something. That's probably a smart decision on her part. I don't want to deal with that. You know, it's like people who's like first time. Like I was over at my friend's house this weekend and somebody said, oh my gosh, I have never smoked pot.

And I said, well, then don't. I don't want to be here for that. Yeah, I remember we were at a party and someone was like, should I do some pot? But last time I fell asleep and you were like, yeah, so don't do it. Like, we don't want to have to carry you. I think of other people when you're thinking about doing these things. Yeah.

And you're also somebody that doesn't respond to marijuana, to cannabis. No, I don't like marijuana. Because why? First of all, I find like, you know, my brain works on a level of precision. That's just the way my brain responds. I don't like the kind of vagueness of never knowing what the dose is really, what the mood is. And then finally, probably most importantly, I just don't like the way I feel the next day. So you get a pot hangover.

Yeah, I feel it in my system the next day. And is it from all cannabis? So an edible, a joint, babe? I mean, you know, we've had a few laughs. And the only times where I've had positive experiences with cannabis have been with Chelsea. But even that isn't consistent enough. And they're not just so much fun that I kind of go, it's worth the hangover and stuff. Yeah, I think I remember you once saying you felt everything that you said was so stupid.

I remember, yeah. There was that one time where I felt like I was speaking and there's part of me like judging myself speaking, going, God, that's dumb. But that does happen. That can happen with cannabis. And I think the real thing to remind everybody about is when you are having a drug experience, to set your attention, even if it is recreational, to say, I'm going to be in a good mood. This is going to be a fun experience. I'm not going to pig out if that's your issue and it's my issue. So I have to say that a lot to myself.

But it is about setting an attention, even if it's in a casual way. Yeah, but I totally agree with you. And I think it's also about respecting your own brain chemistry. Like, I know people who will do cannabis, and it really relaxes them and makes them social and whatever. My tendency with cannabis, and, like, I've had quite a few experiences where it's made me paranoid, and it hasn't relaxed me. It's tensed me up and made me more anxious. So I kind of just respect my own brain chemistry, you know? Yeah.

It's individual. Yeah. I mean, the thing is I think a lot of people don't know that much about their own brain chemistry. You know, they know about their moods, but they're not as educated as you are about your brain chemistry. Yeah, but I think, again, because a lot of this stuff is still, you know, new even for scientists. I mean, certainly like psychedelics, they've been shut down for the last, what, 40, 50 years. It's only now that we're re-researching them. You can be aware of your own state of mind.

For a while, I was keeping, you know, a journal where I literally would write down what even I'd eaten because I knew that even what I ate could affect my mood. So part of it, you know, once I decided to stop drinking, I just became very aware of the tiniest differences of what ingesting different things could do. And for me, as someone who suffers from depression, that was empowering. Mm-hmm. Do you feel like you've had any depression in the last six months? No. I haven't had clinical depression since I've been on antidepressants. But I've definitely become happier since I took these additional steps. Because that's what the difference is, I feel like, now having known you for about three years. And when you use the word manage, That's often the way you hear people discuss their depression is that it's being managed,

but they're not any happier than they should be, that they don't feel better. They just feel okay. Well, the thing, you're absolutely right. But what I was going to say is you over the last year, I would say, seem happier. Like there seems like an increase in your joy. I mean, I definitely feel that way. But I think you're hitting on something that's really important, which also touches upon what's the difference between depression and sadness? You know, sadness is generally triggered

by something, you know, an event, a situation, whereas depression is different. Depression, it's just a vaguer sense of like not wanting to do anything, a sadness that kind of permeates everything and isn't necessarily event specific. So an antidepressant manages to get you out of that hole. But it doesn't necessarily get you kind of, you know, flying high and happy. It just has lifted you from the hole, which is depression. I find some of these other modalities actually lift you higher for me. Okay, we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back. Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Crave, Netflix, and Disney Plus from $94 a month. Price guaranteed for two years on internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit visit bell.ca for details

and to check availability bell connection is everything when i was 14 years old i was kidnapped and held captive for nine months i survived and i've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them i'm elizabeth smart and these are the survivor files I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club part group chat for thought daughters pop culture obsessives and anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse i'm eli rallo and every week we're connecting the dots between books the internet and the conversations everyone can't stop having i'm gonna have to look up this story i'm obsessed i'm obsessed from best-selling authors

and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments nothing is off the table it's Like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages. you were saying even just the inclination to want to go out to start to wonder what your friends are doing or want to be social is a sign that your depression is lifting you're absolutely right one of the things that i would say characterizes depression is a diminishment in

desire so your desire it's so if like when you have no sex drive apply that to the rest of your life. Exactly. I don't have a desire to hang out with friends. I don't have a desire to have sex. I don't have a desire to go out to a cocktail party or anything. And the deeper your depression, the more squelched and diminished your desire is for everything. So on one level, you're getting out of that hole. And one of the ways, like I have a friend who just started antidepressants like a week ago and she was I was like are you feeling them yet she's like no I'm not really feeling them and then she went on to tell me like she was feeling like a little bit sad that she had isolated herself for a while and she missed kind of her friends I said then it's working because

that's your desire coming back you're actually the first the first moments are you kind of going oh my gosh, I've isolated myself and I don't want to be isolated. So that's the way people can kind of make sure that they're dealing with depression. If you're feeling your desire to do everything is down, you should see a medical professional. It's also helpful to have someone in your life that is going through it because it gives me a lot more understanding of depression since it's not something. No, you definitely don't suffer from it. I'm kind of always in awe of your. Denial. No, you're antidepressant. Whatever chemicals are in your brain, I mean, you are definitely functioning at a level of antidepressive. What about you, Brandon? Have you ever felt

depressed? Only one time. When I got my period? Yes. Because you wanted the baby. Every time. It was seasonal depression, I would say. It was just my last year in South Dakota, and I just could not get myself. I was still on a track scholarship. I wasn't going to practice. I didn't want to do anything. And so the way you're describing your lack of desire, one of my favorite things to do is eat.

I didn't want to eat. I didn't want to do, engage. I wanted to be alone. And that was the only time I can remember now looking back in retrospect to me, that was depression. That wasn't just a sad or a mood. That was an inability to be happy. That's absolutely.

And what do you think that was triggered by? I think there were a lot of things, but I think it was being in that state at that time with just the doom and gloom, not being out of the closet yet, and knowing that that hurdle was about to be jumped. Oh, that's that. But also seasonal, as you're mentioning. But not being out of the closet and knowing that's coming up. Yeah, I think it was a culmination of things, but just being in that season. And a lot of people say that, though. You talk to people like, I love Seattle.

I love the overcast and the gray. But people are like, but living in it is different than experiencing it for a week. It really can have an effect on your mood and who you are. Well, light therapy definitely helps for people who have seasonal depression, you know, during winter months, especially like you said, in parts of the country or the world where you don't see a lot of sunlight. That can definitely also trigger depression. And light therapy works with that. you know there are other things as well like there's magnetic therapy where they use super powerful magnets have has also shown some results i think my philosophy is you know research this

stuff you know that i love researching stuff which usually you just call me and yeah i don't have the patience to google shit so whenever i have a question i just text alec what's up with and then i get a 85 page dossier back i usually just call and tell you what's actionable and whatever you've asked me to research but um but yeah there are definitely things you can do but i think awareness of when you're depressed is one of the first but to be also compassionate and empathetic towards other people when you don't suffer from depression because my instinct is always to get up and move on you know and well that's it yeah one of the worst things people can say to someone who's depressed is snap out of it. You should just go out more. You need to put yourself in

an environment where you're around happy people. And it's like, you don't understand that's completely not within the realm of possibility. So yeah, one of the things about compassion and empathy is understanding that they can't snap out of it. And going out to a group event isn't going to work either. I think what you're saying works the most is creating new habits that are helping and aiding your state of mind. So instead of having bad habits, you know, we rehabituate ourselves, which is much easier than any of us think, because you really can in like three to five days, just start doing something every day. And then it does become part of your habit. And then you're helping your brain and you're on your own team. I think you're so right. Like,

you know, if you're drinking, try reducing your drinking. There's no harm in trying to take a B12 and folate supplement. There are supplements like Methylguard that you can get on Amazon or anywhere. So there's no harm in kind of trying to increase your B12 and folate. There's no harm in adding NAC, which is another supplement that can really help with negative OCD thinking. In fact, psychiatrists are saying NAC as a supplement is having more powerful effects for OCD thinking, negative thinking than any prescription they have. So there are these things you can do. And like you said, you know, taking those little steps can help. Well, I think a lot of the concerns for people as well are the side effects. So are there, to your knowledge, side effects associated with

ketamine and antidepressants? Antidepressants definitely have side effects. And I think that's one of the big reasons some people want to avoid them. And it's also one of the reasons why with antidepressants, it can be so hit or miss. Like people sometimes need to try several antidepressants before they find one that doesn't have the side effects that make them want to stop it. Ketamine doesn't have any specific list of side effects. You can't drive right afterwards because your sense of balance and whatever is really thrown. And during a ketamine- Can you ice skate? Yes, you can rollerblade, which is usually how I get to and from appointments.

But I think that with ketamine, you know, ketamine infusion, just to be clear, you do go on a trip like it's psychoactive. Well, you said, OK, the last time you did it, you said you felt like you were in a matrix, right? Yeah. In some sort of underworld or underground. I felt like it was giving me glimpses of the universe, of like a deeper understanding of the universe. and while I was in it I could understand it and as I was coming out of it I knew that I wouldn't be able to describe it like words were not going to do it justice and sure enough as I was returning back I felt that ability to discuss it went away but you're aware of it like weirdly in ketamine

I'm aware that I'm on ketamine while I'm going through this journey. And I choose to use music while I do it. And that music can oftentimes dictate where I'm going and what I'm experiencing. It's kind of cool if you kind of are prepared for it and you don't freak out by it. Brendan, you were talking about ketamine as an anti-pain thing for fibromyalgia. So it's also being used as that. But it's used in much higher doses and for much longer. So a lot of times for fibromyalgia, you don't necessarily go on what I call a trip.

You're just kind of out of it because they do sometimes give you tranquilizers and anti-nausea medicine for fibromyalgia and ketamine. But during depression treatment, oftentimes it's about the practitioner finding that perfect dose for you so that you're not overwhelmed but you're definitely disassociating from your real life it's kind of cool yeah i mean i feel like i should do it don't you think i should do it there have been several times where you've actually during my trip where i've gone wow i wish chelsea was yeah i think i should try it you want to try it with me brandon we can report back when we do our ayahuasca review with dan and jenny or our ayahuasca update i think you should

definitely do it but again i can't stress enough going to the right place i'll go with you to your place we can go together yeah then we can stumble out of there because i would love to speak to you after yeah no that's funny that you say that because you texted me you're like oh i love you so much i can't wait to tell you all about this and then you're like please call me right away and i called you you're like i'll talk to you tomorrow it's true i kind of like was like oh my god i have so much to say but yeah then i was like i think i'm just gonna like hold it in And it's also kind of bizarre what you're saying because, I mean, you know, you're going like, yeah, I kind of feel like I got a glimpse of the universe. I know.

It does feel bizarre. It feels stupid when you're saying that. Well, it does. Of course that feels stupid. Okay. So I've added more stand-up dates, everybody. You can come see me perform. Let me think.

First, I want to say a very, very heartfelt thank you to not-doctor Alekashishian. Thank you. He's not a medical professional. He's just one of my very, very dear friends who's pretty much the smartest person I know. I'm coming to Brisbane. I'm coming to Sydney. I'm coming to Melbourne, Auckland, New Zealand. I'm coming to Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Grand Rapids, Vancouver, Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Salt Lake City, Kansas City, Oklahoma City, which is a place I've never performed before, and Toronto's show.

We are adding another show. So you can come see me on my Life Will Be the Death of Me stand-up comedy tour. Brandon, people want to know how they can get a hold of you. They can't, but they can go to your Accountable page if they want to look up any social issues or any organizations. I have a lot of suggestions of ways you can get involved on my Accountable.us page. And after that, you should check out Emily's List for any female candidates. Yes, Emily's List is a great organization that I partnered with

that help elect progressive women for the Democratic Party. And the book is called Life Will Be the Death of Me. And my name is Tracy Joy Handler. Good night. Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Crave, Netflix, and Disney Plus from $94 a month. Price guaranteed for two years on Internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit.

Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability. Bell. Connection is everything. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months. I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files. I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.

I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books,

the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much,

you're in the right place. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages. Life Will Be the Death of Me is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.