Life Will Be the Death of Me with Chelsea Handler - Family Secrets with Therapist Nedra Tawwab

Episode Date: October 10, 2024

Therapist Nedra Tawwab joins Chelsea this week to chat about managing unhealthy family relationships, living with someone who can’t process their emotions, and growing up with emotionally immature parents.  Then: A gay man wants his sister to stop stealing his friends. A newly-single woman struggles with boundaries with her ex. And a daughter wants to introduce herself to her half-siblings - who have no idea she exists. * Buy Nedra’s book Drama Free! * Need some advice from Chelsea? Email us at [e-mail] * Executive Producer Catherine Law Edited & Engineered by Brad Dickert * * * * * The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the Podcast author, or individuals participating in the Podcast, and do not represent the opinions of iHeartMedia or its employees.  This Podcast should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, mental health counseling or therapy, or as imparting any health care recommendations at all.  Individuals are advised to seek independent medical, counseling advice and/or therapy from a competent health care professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issues, health inquiry or matter, including matters discussed on this Podcast. Guests and listeners should not rely on matters discussed in the Podcast and shall not act or shall refrain from acting based on information contained in the Podcast without first seeking independent medical advice.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. There's no shortcut for saving time, but saving money is simple. Just combine your car and home insurance with Bel Air Direct and save. Get a quote at BelAirDirect.com. I survived nine months in captivity, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus, or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I chose option B. I'm Julie Pinheiro, and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word solita, trading the pity for possibility. Listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. if your bookshelf and your for you page are equally important to your personality

welcome home pro society is a weekly podcast that's part book club part group chat for anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse each week we're connecting the dots between books the internet and pop culture with your favorite writers book talk creators and plenty of overthought opinions yeah i'm obsessed i'm us. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb. You know, I'm always searching for inspiration and useful tools to maximize joy. Like when my friend Henry Winkler offered advice to aspiring actors and really anybody hoping to stand out. You're not hired just to fill time and

space. You're hired to fill the space with you. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, hello, this is Chelsea Handler at Joy, Chelsea Joy, Chelsea Joy Handler. Hello, this is Catherine Elizabeth Law. How are you? I'm good. I'm just sitting here in my bedroom with my big black lover, Doug, and he is so cute. Now, I came home I was gone for two weeks I went to Mallorca um and I came home and he has this new thing where he just jumps on you and then puts your hand in his mouth with a light and he's not really biting but he's trying to drag you and I'm like you better cut that fucking shit out buddy because people are not going to respond well to them doing that people who don't like dogs are

going to be scared right dad make sure my bell trained him to do that while in my absence she's full of shenanigans, that Mabel. Of course, of course. I was just listening to Alex Cooper's interview with Kamala Harris on my drive in. I was so, so blown away that she got that interview. I texted her right away. I was like, holy shit. So that's awesome. That's amazing. I love to see that. Yeah. I also like to see candidates being real and normal in the modern world, like doing something like a podcast. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I like when they just act like normal people like you don't have to always be spouting paul like you're a human being i want to see the human humanity in everyone you know and be like okay but anyway i've been spending a

lot of time in my hyperbaric chamber because i'm home for two weeks and i figure i might as well regenerate and rejuvenate somebody told me the other day that my skin looked incredible and i was like you know what thanks for that hot tip i'm gonna keep going i'm like it must be the hyperbaric chamber so it was like sleeping like a vampire in your tube among all the other things that I do to myself. Are you reading anything exciting right now? I did. I just read a great book.

I think, I don't know that it's out yet because my editor sent it to me. It's called Like Mother, Like Mother by Susan Rieger. I read that. I read Cutting for Stone over the break. That is long and laborious. And I would not recommend that unless you're into, because he's the one who wrote

The Covenant of Water, Abraham Ferguson. Oh, yes, yes. I did just reread Many Lives, Many Masters because it's come up so many times on the podcast. I did pretty much, I just reread that and then I gave it to my aunt because she could use a little spirituality booster. I gave that to her with her Wellbutrin

that I dropped off at her house the other day. I said, start taking one of these a day, every day, please. She's like, you know, I'm not unhappy. I'm like, no, no, no one's saying you're unhappy. You just need a little bit of a mood lifter. I'm like, it's just so that you're a little bit more optimistic. yes and she's like I am optimistic but I'm also realistic and I'm dying I'm like you're not dying you're just old we're all dying that's my dad he's like ever since he turned I mean I don't know

probably 30 but like literally every year he's like I probably won't make it five more years I'll probably die by the time I'm 50 why do people say things like that I don't know I either read or listened or someone told me that if we make it through the next 10 to 15 years then we're going to be able to live until we're 120 I'm like no thank you first of all I can't afford to live until I'm 120 okay I don't have that kind of money you want to retire someday who the fuck wants to do that to 120 I mean have you seen old people it's hard to get around oh please well apparently there's gonna have there are gonna be all these things to help us keep us young but it's like I'm gonna spend most of my time in a fucking hyperbaric chamber I already feel like crazy like

a fox. Oh, by the way, there are still tickets for Kansas City, St. Louis, and Indianapolis that are coming up at the end of October, October 25th, 6th, and 7th. Anyway, we have a serious guest today. We have a professional today on the show. No funny stuff. This was a recommendation from my friend, Yanika. So please welcome Nedra Tawwab. Welcome, Nedra Tawwab. Thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for having me. I have lots of questions for you. I follow you on Instagram. A lot of my friends also follow you on Instagram. So I'm not sure who turned who on to you. But I read your book drama free. And I've sent it to a lot of people anonymously. Just so you know, I like to just send books to people without them knowing exactly where it came from.

But there's a couple of things in your book that I want to touch on right away. First of all, you're a licensed therapist. So you have a lot of experience right with dealing with different people, different kind of dynamics and relationships. What I found very interesting, I had never really understood the term enmeshment before. And I was interested in you kind of delineating the difference between codependency and enmeshment. Because some of the examples in the book that you used for enmeshment sounded to me like codependency. So I want to be better at knowing what the real differentiation is? Oh, that's a good one. When I think of codependency, I think of us trying to enable some unhealthy behavior in a person, trying to rescue

them from some sort of outcome, trying to manage things in their lives so they will be better. When I think of this enmeshment that we have in our relationships, people can be very healthy in their own life and very enmeshed at the same time. It's that couple that doesn't have any outside friends. It's the siblings who won't let anybody else in. Nobody has a drug addiction. Nobody needs saving from anything. But there is no outside influence. It's just us. And so the enmeshment is really like we have no boundaries because we have nothing else besides what's in this situation so would you say it's like a little bit like isolation like isolating someone well it could be isolating a lot of people I think you know you brought up drama free which

is about dysfunctional family relationships and one of the things that happens in dysfunctional families is there is this enmeshment around we are the only people who can love us right like everybody else is an outsider, a friend, a teacher, everyone is an outsider. It's only us. And it doesn't mean that those people aren't healthy for you, but it certainly breaks up that dynamic and can point out some of those things that are a bit dysfunctional. And so for the dysfunctional system to sort of continue, we have to be enmeshed. Okay. Because one of the examples you used for enmeshment, I think, if I recall, it was about Like getting accepted to a college that was far away from home and your family desiring for you to go to college close to home and you choosing to go out of state, say, and then having there be a consequence within your family about that.

Like, how dare you go so far away from us? You're supposed to stay close. So that's a good example of enmeshment. Absolutely. When we are unable to get away from something, even if we're going to this healthier thing, even if our family has taken really great care of us, they don't want us to leave. It's very healthy for people around a certain age to leave the nest. And if you're not allowed to do that, that can be problematic for you. If you're not allowed to raise your children a little differently than how you were raised, if you're not allowed to have friends outside of the family, if you're not allowed to go on vacation with people who are other than family, those things are problematic.

That very much sounds to me like an instance of a man controlling a woman, say, in a relationship where they isolate them, right? And they don't want them to have any friends. They don't want them to do anything unless it's been approved. That kind of abuse, that kind of situation that most typically leads to abuse, control, right? Yes. So it typically is a control tactic because the people we love, we want other people to love them as well. And if I am saying to you, I am the only person who can love you or we are the only people who can love you, I will pick the people. That's not good for your sense of autonomy. Like you don't get to, you know, be at work and maybe pick some people who are good for you because they've already been picked. And so if I am saying I am the barrier for entry of anyone else, yes, I'm trying to control your life in some sort of way. Okay, let's talk about counterdependency versus codependency.

So would you say that counterdependency is basically the opposite of codependency? Well, yes. Counterdependency is the isolation of people as supports, as confidants, as emotional companions. People who are counterdependent, they tend to function pretty well in life. they have this very strong exterior they have a mantra of i don't need anyone they're really do-it-yourselfers they believe in this philosophy of being self-made and they have a high ability to feel very lonely because we need people in the world when you are of the mindset that people have harmed you and the safest thing to do is stay away from people, it causes this isolation of I am the only one with me. So even if I can do it all, I still feel bad about having to do it all, even if I'm pushing people away. So sometimes, you know, we'll see this in dating as the person, everything

is going really well. It seems like it's a, you know, really great relationship. And then it's supposed to maybe go to the next step and they start to push you away because there's too much closeness. There's too much vulnerability. So you see that a lot with folks who are counterdependent or you may see them carrying a heavy load and they are unable to allow you to help them. Sometimes with our family members, this is the person who we don't see very often, the person who may not call us, the person who keeps to themselves, but they function pretty well in life, but they are very isolated from everyone else. And is there a way to be counterdependent? Because my sister and I were talking about

this term over the weekend and we were saying how we were both, we both became counterdependent because our parents were so, well, useless pretty much. I mean, they were around, but they weren't really doing anything. And so we were like, oh, we're both, but we weren't, we were both very much involved in our family. We're not isolated from our family. So how does that fit in? Like, if you're somebody who's very self-sufficient, like I always feel like that. I'm like, oh, I'm all on my own. I've got to do everything on my own. But I've become quite used to that because that's how I grew up. Like I had to be self-sufficient. But I'm not isolated from the rest of the family. Well, how do you invite people in? I've always had people around.

But how do you invite people in emotionally? Because there's a difference between having people around and being around people and being able to show up in that space and allowing people to be there for you, allowing people to support you when you're going through something, not you always being the supporter, but really letting people in, letting them know what's going on. So you can have relationships and still not be emotionally available in those relationships. So I would wonder if a person is counterdependent, how are you being vulnerable or not? So counterdependent would mean that you're not, that you are being invulnerable, Or can you be counterdependent and be vulnerable?

Counterdependent and vulnerable with a small few, with a small few sometimes. Well, I'm just going to lump myself into that category. I think that's true. Yeah, with a small few, because what I've seen with that is people who are vulnerable with a small few. It is it is very small. I mean, it's not enough to even have a party with. It's really like I have two people and if something happens to these two people, I don't have anyone else. There's no inviting in. There is no more opening up because, you know, again, somewhere along the way, like you said, like, you know, my parents were useless.

So I grew accustomed to doing things on my own because I know I can do them well. I know things will be done and I have not developed that trust for other people to do them. Now, I can talk to people about my problems, but I don't really want people to get in there and resolve my problems for me. So, I think there is some variation of how we're vulnerable with others as well. Sometimes with counterdependency, people are very vulnerable after the fact. They talk about things as they have already resolved those things and not necessarily maybe as they're going through those things. Okay. Let's talk about the term, is it alexithymia? That was a word I had to look up that I learned in your book. So thank you. I love learning new words.

So tell us what that means. Alexithymia is where we have like this emotional restriction. We're not aware of what we feel. We almost can't tap into our emotions. Sometimes this will show up in people saying things like, I don't cry. or I don't get upset about stuff or I don't get very angry. Well, emotions are very helpful for us. Now, how we express those emotions, it matters.

You can be angry, but do we want you to be angry and get out of your car and yell at a driver? No, we don't want that. But it is okay to have some level of a feeling in your body. Ultimately, people have to be able to identify what their feeling is. And with alexithymia, I think we see a lot of folks who don't even know what they feel. It's like, I don't know what I feel. I'm often confused about what my feeling is about this thing, or they're pocketing everything into maybe two feelings. I'm angry

or I'm sad. Well, let's talk about this whole wheel of other things you might feel. You might feel disappointed. You might feel confused. You might feel lonely. So being able to communicate your feelings, especially, you know, going back to counterdependency, a lot of counterdependent folks really struggle with being able to identify what they're feeling. And so it can be challenging in your relationships with people if you can't even show feeling and then be able to recognize those feelings in other people and respond to it because you don't have them. You're like, I don't even understand why they're upset about this thing because that wouldn't upset me. Well, we have to be able to show up for people in relationships. We have to be able to

acknowledge what we're feeling. And, you know, as a therapist, we use things like feelings charts And, you know, mood trackers to kind of help you distinguish between a happy moment, a exciting moment, a sad moment or this moment or that moment, because most people will give you like two things. But once you break it down, it can be helpful to know that actually I was enraged when I did that. That was a step beyond anger when I responded in that way. I was actually very hurt. I wasn't angry. Those can be very helpful tools for you to be able to communicate with others and certainly to manage your behaviors. Yeah, you talk about that a little bit with a couple that, like, this woman was just frustrated with her husband and not—he wasn't able—she was ready to leave him, and he wanted to maintain the relationship and stay in the marriage, yet he didn't know how to.

He didn't know how to communicate or what the problem was because he had grown up with a family of, you know, parents who were divorced or had an unhealthy dynamic, and so he didn't know how to express his emotions. And when someone is that stuck and you talk about this also, like having patients that aren't ready to make changes, you know, sometimes there's like a phase of there are several phases of going to therapy where you're curious enough to think that there is a problem. Then you go and you start talking to somebody. But I know from my own therapy experience that it is there's phases to when you're willing to accept and learn more about yourself and actually gain self-awareness about your behavior. But when someone is so stuck and is emotionally unavailable and emotionally almost uneducated, right, they have an inability to express themselves, where do you begin? How do you salvage a marriage if somebody is that far removed from their own emotions? Well, if that person is in therapy, I think a therapist would point out their feelings for them. There have been times where I say, you know, you sound very sad about your partner wanting to leave the relationship without that person being able to identify. Oh, my gosh, I'm sad. I'm like, is this accurate or am I far off? Right.

And then we'll talk about what that feeling looks like. But if that person is not in therapy, I think sometimes when we're in relationships with people, it can be really challenging to push them to the point of change because people have to want that. And there are, you know, there are people who grow in age who, you know, never change because it's so uncomfortable. It can be so uncomfortable to move away from this idea that I have to manage everything or I have to keep things really private to I'm going to be an open book with someone. So for some people, they would rather that marriage end than to risk being vulnerable in that relationship because that's way scarier. I have had some clients where it has taken, you know, maybe years, maybe for them to get to this point of being able to quickly recognize what they feel and act on it, particularly in marriages. You know, a lot of marriages, you know, we kind of talk about infidelity. We talk about, you know, how you communicate when people have kids.

That's a really troubling spot as well. I want to talk about this section of you, Brooke. I took a screen grab because I found this, it resonated for a lot of situations that I've seen before. Signs of emotionally immature parents. So there's a list. The first thing says you feel lonely when you're with them, which is so sad. The relationship is one-sided. They dismiss or minimize your emotions. They demand compliance and they don't respect boundaries. Also, they make their problems seem more significant than yours and they are unable to hold space for your feelings or problems. So it sounds, that sounds also very narcissistic. Is there a correlation between

being like an immature parent? Because all of these things are also signs, I think, of narcissism, no? They could be, but I think a narcissist is a little more strategic. I think an emotionally unavailable parent is maybe a little more aloof because there can be love there. Like the parent can love you, but just not have those tools to really show up in a way, even if you tell them, like the application of these things, they can't quite grasp it. So I would say what a narcissist is a little more strategic. They really don't have a desire to change. They are certainly manipulating a situation with an emotionally immature parent, there just may be a lack of understanding. Certainly, they don't have a good grasp on their mental health. And I think that

if a narcissist or emotionally available person was a client, the emotionally unavailable parent would likely be able to change and the narcissist would not. Right, because that's typical, right? I remember asking my therapist if I was a narcissist and he said typically narcissists aren't asking for feedback. Yeah, I think sometimes we confuse narcissism with like being highly concerned or putting your needs in the forefront.

Like that's not necessarily narcissistic. I think there is some strategy to a narcissist that maybe we don't understand about that dynamic where someone is strategically trying to manipulate you or make you believe something is happening that's not happening. With a parent, I think what's happening is that parent probably still needs a lot of parenting themselves. So being able to show up for a child is just out of their wheelhouse because they're really still looking for the same things that you're looking for, which is a lot of nurturing. Kids need a lot. They need people to tune into their world. And some parents, they just don't have those skills and they don't really know how to develop them because they're still trying to get it from you or to give it to themselves. And what advice would you give to children like that, that are dealing with an emotionally immature parent? How do you guide that? Well, you can have a relationship with an emotionally immature parent. The relationship is not going to be ideal because you cannot change that parent. So, you know, for instance, if you have a parent who doesn't respond to, let's say, your career successes and you're like, mom, I got a new show or mom, I got this thing going on. You're like, oh, OK. You may want to not share with your parent until you feel secure in the way that they might respond.

You may want to share with people who can really have a warm level of excitement and then tell your parent as a formality. But going to that person who has shown that they can't support you and looking for that support, that's going to hurt you every time. So the strategy for being in relationships with emotionally unavailable people is really to manage how you interact with them, your expectations around what they are actually capable of. With parents, we often give them expectations that they can never achieve because, you know, everybody is not prepared to parent. What is the stat? Like 70% of people have unplanned pregnancies. So, you know, people are not necessarily equipped to deal with everything that, you know, happens with a child, even when that child is an adult. because you'll have a lot of adults who say, well, maybe I could understand that they didn't get it when I was a kid, but now I'm 30, I'm 40 and they still don't get it.

And it's like, why do you think that the aging process means maturing emotionally? It doesn't necessarily mean that. And you're talking about them maturing during a high stress scenario. They were raising you and working and doing all these things. That's not the time to mature.

Right. So, you know, this idea that our parents should be able to get it at some point. It's like, well, what work have they done? What work are they doing? Are they listening to this podcast? Are they going to seminars? Are they in therapy? Like, what are they doing? If they're not doing anything, the expectation of them changing is pretty small. And if you're into this sort of self-improvement work and mental health projects and all of this sort of stuff, if you're into that, then that's great for you. But it's certainly not something that is likely to rub off on a person who is uninterested and certainly a person who doesn't seem to have a problem with themselves. OK, that's very interesting. Not everybody is maturing just because they are getting older. That's an important nugget of information to remember when you're dealing with a 60-year-old moron. Remember that, everybody.

Okay, we're going to take a quick break, and we'll be right back to take some callers. There's no shortcut for saving time, but saving money is simple. Just combine your car and home insurance with Bel Air Direct and save. Get a quote at BelAirDirect.com. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months. I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files. I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything.

every week i'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable i knew if he woke up without a doubt he was going to hurt me i started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed and i just started screaming they are abducted stalked controlled and nearly silenced but these aren't stories about what's taken from them they're stories about what it takes to make it out alive Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books,

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I chose option B. I'm Julie Pinheiro, and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word solita, trading the pity for possibility. Every time I tried to be alone, I kept meeting people and they were like, you smiled at us.

Not a lot of people smile around here. It's when you're alone that you're most receptive to the world as it is and not the lies you're sold about it. It can be a time where you push your limits, change your mind, or wake up to a new version of yourself. So whether you're a solo travel veteran or you're too nervous to book your first trip, I hope you listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb. If you know me, you know I'm always

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He was just so unapologetically himself and knew nothing of Hollywood. He hadn't been on a plane before without his family. It was so pure. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back.

We are back. Okay, we're back with Nedra Tawab. Yeah, so I wanted to ask about enmeshment. And we get a lot of calls and emails from people who are having difficulty with their family, either because they have chosen to leave the religion that they grew up in, that they were raised in, or that they come out of the closet and their families have a poor reaction to that. So I wonder, is that a consequence of enmeshment?

Leaving a religion can be, Particularly if you're unwilling to support your child in discovering the new belief or if you are unwilling to even accept your child if they have a new belief. Particularly one that they're not joining a cult. You know, you have this sometimes like within Christian sex, right? Like, oh my gosh, you've went from Catholic to this other thing or you went from this to that. And, you know, people can have a lot of conversation around that, meaning that everyone in this family needs to be Presbyterian. Everyone in this family needs to be, you know, this particular thing. And if you are not that, we cannot accept it. So that is an example of enmeshment. I would say that if you have a child or someone in the family who is LGBTQ, typically that is a value challenge in families that we do not believe or we do not support this thing. It's not necessarily we all have to be this one thing.

I think that is a little deeper and it goes to, you know, if you are not this thing, you end up here. So, you know, I think that's a really big thing in families. And I do talk about that a bit in Drama Free as to what I've seen sort of backfire for families. I live in the South. And so I do encounter a lot of folks who are, you know, perhaps Christian and, you know, their family does not believe in, you know, them having a certain type of lifestyle. And it is a rough road. And my suggestions there is always to, one, be yourself, and two, also recognize that in those situations, you are redefining their idea of who they thought you were, and they have to be able to process that. Sometimes they process it with you, which is terrible, because who wants to hear it? And sometimes they find, you know, a therapist or someone else to process it with. But there is this period of time where, you know, in some families, they do go through this like value or moral crisis, even when they love you and want to be in relationship with you. And I would say that that is, you know, on the realm of normal to have this sort of like, I thought it was this, and now I'm starting to understand that you will have a different life than what I thought it was. Yeah. And I think that's about it's very important to remember the processing time, because for someone like me, I'm very impatient. I want everything to be quick. I'm quick. I take things in quickly and I and I can spit them back out quickly and I can comprehend a situation. But a lot of people do need a duration of time to actually process whatever new information that they've been given.

so when you do get a bad reaction if you're say it is you're coming out to your family and your family isn't as receptive as you would hope they would be there is a period of time that you have to allow people to adjust to the new information and i think we can say you know i know personally i i can lose sight of that and it's a good reminder for all of our listeners you know everybody processes things differently and some people take a lot of time and some people take less time. So to be open and not looking for immediate results. Well, I think it's very similar when we restructure our boundaries in families and we change, hey, I know every year I come home for Thanksgiving, but this year I'm going to do this other thing. That new information

can be very problematic. Changing anything when people are used to it being a certain way is a problem. And there is some adjustment people have to make on their end. We have the information well before them. And so we're already adjusted and we're like, what's the problem? Like I just told you this thing I've been thinking about for two years. Why don't you love it? And it's not to be received in that way that people really do need some time to sort of figure out what they feel about it and how to show up with you. Well, should we take some questions? Yeah, let's go. I can't wait for her to drop some more wisdom. I know. Let's start with a caller. Our first caller is Lauren. She says, Dear Chelsea, Last year, my partner of 14 years ended our relationship and

moved out of our apartment. It was an adjustment to take over full rent payments. My parents offered to let me move in with them, but I was determined to stay in my home and maintain my independence. I've received my lease renewal, and the rent will increase by a whopping 12%. I've been dipping into an inheritance left to me by my grandparents to cover any shortages. There's not much inventory in my area that's less than what I'm currently paying either, so I can't move. I've renewed my lease but made a commitment to myself that this will be like my last year in this apartment, after which I'll temporarily move in with my parents. This will allow me to pay down credit card debt I accrued while my relationship was ending and I became

depressed and did some emotional overspending. I'll build my savings and eventually begin looking for a more permanent home. However, I'm afraid that moving back into my childhood bedroom at 38 will tip me further into a depression that I've been fighting my way out of for two years, and I'm uncertain if my self-esteem can take this hit. I've felt shame in losing my relationship and struggling to afford my own home and using my grandparents' money for rent. That feeling will now be magnified by living in my childhood bedroom, and I'm scared I'll be trapped. Plus, the loss of independence is scary. How will I date as an adult from my childhood bedroom? I'm truly grateful to have the support from my family.

However, I'm still finding it tough as I prepare myself for the emotional toll of leaving home and with it the chapter of my life I spent with my partner and for losing some independence in my parents' house. Thank you both. I absolutely love this podcast. Listening to your wise words of advice to others is getting me through this tough time of my own.

Lauren. Hi, Lauren. Hi. Hi, Lauren. Hi, Kelsey. Hi, Katherine. Hi. This is Nedra Tawab.

She's our special guest today. She's a licensed therapist, so you're in good hands. Hi. Oh, hi. Thanks so much. Okay. So first off, you have a year, right, left to prepare for this move, correct? Yes, I now have a year. Okay. So isn't there a possibility that within this year, you can figure out a different dynamic that won't make you have all of these feelings, like finding a roommate to move in with,

or finding a different kind of, I know you said most of the apartments in your area are the same price. But I mean, you have a year to kind of find another solution if moving into your parents' house represents all of these kind of misgivings you have about yourself. Yes, yes, you're right. And I'm considering the roommate option as well. And possibly getting an additional job. Like what do you do for a living? Do you have time to get another job or something that you could do on the weekends for extra income? I work at an independent bookstore and sometimes I have to work on the weekends and that's not always easy for me to tell in advance. So it's hard to schedule a second job, but I have thought

about looking into second jobs I can do from home. Maybe that aren't tied to a schedule, but, you know, data entry, writing, those kinds of things. Yeah. I mean, that sounds a lot better. Like I would say move into your parents if you were okay with that, but you sound like you're definitely not okay with that. And that has all of these separate meetings to you and figuring out this situation independently before you have to move in with your parents and coming up with solutions so that you don't have to move in with your parents are going to serve you a lot better than kind of folding into a situation that you're not looking forward to. Yeah, I think you're right. And part of why I decided to stay for one more year was trying to find the fortitude in myself to make

changes in how I live, make changes to my budget and see exactly what can I do? What can I do in year. Yeah. What do you think, Nedra? You know, I wonder if you could reframe this from moving into my childhood home to moving in with my parents and reinventing that space, talking to your parents about what living with them as an adult looks like versus living with them as, you know, someone zero to 18. I think this is a wonderful opportunity for you to reposition yourself to be able to move out and maybe stay out for a longer period of time. But this sounds like a wonderful opportunity. I wonder if you could reframe this really as a gift to be able to have parents who have a space for you to move into where you can revisit your finances and think

about how you want things to be in maybe five years or three years or whatever the plan is. But, you know, if you keep thinking of this as like, you know, little Lauren's bedroom where she had this, you know, poster on the wall, it will be a terrible experience. You are an adult and I'm sure your apartment looks a nice, lovely way and you can recreate that. You know, look at some tiny home stuff on Pinterest. You could get really creative with this space and really maximize where you are at this point you'll have more more discretionary income to hang out with your friends you might be able to do some of that frivolous spending that you were talking about and you can certainly buy as many books as you like so this is really to me it's like will they take

more people in this house because it's a wonderful opportunity to reposition yourself for a better situation in the future. Lauren, I'm going to tattle on you a little bit, but this is something that came out when we were having our sort of pre-interview call. You know, I know the breakup happened like 18 months ago or so, and you're still in contact with your ex and like hanging out. And I know that's been sort of difficult for you guys. And to me, with that and like having this extra year to sort of make a decision about moving in with your folks, it feels like maybe there's a bit of like a things are moving a little bit slowly and I wonder Nedra if you would have some advice as far as like boundaries there with the ex if it's okay to keep seeing him if it's

very painful for them or what are good sort of next steps for Lauren well I think we think about life is like this upward progression of stuff and if we go back to some period in life it's like a disaster. It's like, go back to school, go back to my parents' house, go back to my ex. When in actuality, maybe everything is just kind of fluid and we are moving in and out of situations. And maybe this is a time with your ex where you need to evaluate how the relationship that you're establishing with your ex now is adding any value to your life or not. Is it putting you more in this space of, oh my gosh, we should have been here with things? Or is it like, this is wonderful companionship. So, you know, it's not necessarily bad to have a relationship with your ex, but what

is the meaning of the relationship? How is the relationship impacting how you see yourself? Those are important things to think about as you're continuing to connect with this person. Yes, thank you. That all sounds like so many things I need to think about. I think we've had blurred lines over the nature of our relationship, him not wanting to put a label on it and having some of his stuff still in my home. It definitely, at times I'm not really sure what we're intending. So good things to think about. Yeah. I mean, all different and lots of different advice to think about. I mean, a lot of different perspectives or at least a couple of different perspectives, but do you feel like with relation to your ex that you guys are in, do you feel like it's a

healthy dynamic, what you your communication with him and your relationship with him as it stands today? You know, I'm not sure. The last time we spoke, he expressed a lot of self-loathing on his part for having ended the relationship and not knowing why. And listening to him talk, I just kept thinking, you know, like he's not in good working order to start up again. You know, he he needs to love himself. And I want him to do that. And it's, you know, at times I do feel selfish, like think, oh my gosh, he, you know, he's second guessing this, or he's not sure why he did what he did. Maybe we'll go back. But I do worry that he might be returning or thinking about returning as a way to kind of boost his self-esteem and not have the guilt for ending

the relationship. You know, I'm less concerned about what he's doing and what you're choosing to do, Lauren. I wonder what do you want in this dynamic? I hear a lot about, I think he's doing this and it's probably like this. And it's like, well, this is your life. What type of relationship do you want with a person? If you're dating, I don't know if you consider this dating, but if you're dating a person, what do you want that dynamic to look like? And is this it? Yeah. Thank you for reframing it that way. Yeah. Right now it's not it. So maybe this is just companionship for now and whatever his desire is for the relationship, it doesn't override what your desire is for a relationship.

So if you want to go to the movies with this fellow, that's fine. But what you're looking for is not what he's offering. So just being clear about that can be really helpful. It can help you draw those boundaries of, I need you to get your stuff out of my apartment in 30 days, right? Because, you know, if we're just companions and we're spending time together, Maybe in that type of relationship, I don't allow myself to be a storage facility, right? So you think of what that looks like, like, okay, so we have some sort of relationship, but what would the boundaries for this type of relationship be? Right. We haven't really put boundaries on it at all and definitely need it. Definitely.

Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like you definitely need to implement some boundaries in all of your life, you know, like to decide what you want to do. Like if you're going to go move in with your parents, commit to making that a really positive situation. And if you're not going to commit to figuring out a way to make that a really positive situation because you're in a gray zone.

So hopefully some of the stuff that we've talked about today will help you. Yeah, it is. It is so helpful. Thank you. All three of you. This is this is really wonderful. OK, well, great. Well, keep us posted on what happens with you, okay, Lauren?

Pick up Drama Free. Read some. There's some stuff there that will apply to you for sure. Oh, will do. All right. Thanks, Lauren. Thank you, Lauren. Thanks so much.

Our next email, and this is just an email so he won't join us, but this comes from Chris. He says, I'm a gay man in my early 30s, the youngest of three, and this involves my sister, the middle child who's four years older. Almost 10 years ago, after graduating college, I enrolled in graduate school. My older sister, after doing nothing for a few years in her 20s, enrolled too. I initially thought it would be great to have her with me during what was sure to be a stressful few years, and I quickly made a tight-knit group of friends, three guys and three girls. Toward the end of grad school, my sister became increasingly close to my friend group,

despite having made her own friends during our time in school. Eventually, I finished grad school and moved to a big, fun city one hour north. I was excited for a fresh start to be whoever I wanted, make gay friends, and live as an out gay man for the first time in my life. Six months later, my sister moved to the same city as me. I quickly made gay friends and made up for the fun I didn't have while in grad school. Before I knew it, I had so many gay friends and was having a blast. But soon my closest friends were becoming my sister's close friends. I realized she would meet them in passing and then DM them to hang out. Now, while this might not have been inherently wrong, it felt suffocating

to me. Soon I'd show up to gay friends' houses and she'd already be there. She'd cook dinner for my friends when I wasn't around, and she even once went on a trip with a few of my friends, and I didn't find out about it until later. Shouldn't she be busy making her own friends and having her own life? I know the importance of family and how much you talk about sisterly love. I love my sister always, but I do not think that just because we're siblings that my sister has allowed carte blanche access to my life, especially when I've expressed wanting boundaries to have some things for myself. Am I wrong for feeling this way? Chris. I don't know. Doesn't that sound like enmeshment tetra it definitely sounds like enmeshment and i'm thinking here that

chris could do a better job of not introducing his sister to his friends there are some things it sounds like that need to be private because if he's expressed that i want my friends to be my friends please do not call them please do not there is something sacred that he needs to keep in place that doesn't involve her because she's not really honoring this request to have these these you know separate relationships or you go find your own people doesn't sound like she's going to do that from city to city from you know life event to life event she's really latching on and so he will have to be the person to say I will not invite you to this thing. I will not introduce you to these people. So she cannot continue to have these

relationships. You know, I think it could be very hard for your friends to meet your sister and she's a very lovely person and to say to her, hey, we can't talk anymore because I'm your brother's friend. That's a really hard thing to say, but it might be something that he needs to talk about with everyone in his life that, hey, I'm in this situation with my sister. I love her dearly, but I'm really trying to help her meet her own people. She has this history of really latching on to my people. So if she DMs you, you could just let her know that we've had this conversation. Sometimes with our boundaries, we like to say things once and give people the chance to do something. And then after we say it once and we say it twice, we have to do something about it.

we have to start to issue some sort of consequences. The consequence of this would be eliminating her from social things so she no longer has that opportunity. You know, also in a very loving way, you could, you know, hey, have you looked into book clubs? Hey, you know, I work with this lady who's really cool. It seems like you all would be wonderful friends. Helping her meet some people could be helpful, but ultimately you will have to take things into your own hands where you say, I can't even include you anymore because I have learned the hard way over and over that you will start to absorb these things

I'm doing as your own. But this woman, this sister, sounds like she has absolutely no boundaries. Like, I mean, she is following him from city to city, is hanging out with his friends. I mean, she's not going to take that well, obviously. We already discussed people having boundaries set that haven't had them before

and their bad reaction to them. So how would you deal with someone who's going to have a hostile reaction to him trying to set a boundary? Because I would disagree. I don't think it's up to him to talk to his friends about it. Like, this is a her issue, you know? Like, I have a lot of friends that are just nice enough to my family that they would hang out with them as a favor.

So, like, he has to go around and basically tell all these people to stop doing it? I mean, I feel like it's a her problem, not his friend's problem. Well, I agree with you. I think it's a her problem, but I think if he has spoken to her, he may want to try something different. Speaking to the friends is just one way to address it, and other people may not feel comfortable setting that boundary. That's why I say a lot of it will be not including his sister in on certain information or including her in these friend gatherings and social events where she has the opportunity to latch on to other people. She can't DM anyone that she doesn't know about. She can't invite people on vacation if she's never met them. And it can be known that I will not mix my friends with you anymore. And she is entitled to have whatever reaction. But it sounds like, you know, the letter writer here has a really big, important reaction as well.

I mean, the letter was written to say, I'm having this really big issue. So she can have whatever response she's going to have. And I think the execution of it is, I have to exclude you from certain things as a consequence of you not honoring the boundary. Because the solution is not for her to start to do these things because she hasn't done them. She has very poor boundaries and it's not really anyone's job to fix that. But it is, you know, perhaps his job to make sure that his boundary is honored. I feel like also if you tell your friends, like, if you do meet my sister, like, she's a little bit clingy. She, like, tries to hang out with all my friends and sort of like with an eye roll. They'll kind of get the gist, right? They won't want to hang out with her, I think. Well, yeah, I mean, but it's, I feel like the issue is her, you know, she has to like cultivate her own friendships and her own relationships. I mean, and it's hard to hear from a family member. I don't want you around all the time, you know? So it's like, I just am thinking about like what it would feel like, you know, she thinks probably like, oh, this is great. My brother and I have all the same friends. We're super close. We do everything together. His friends are my friends. So it's going to be like a real loud thud when she finds out that's not the case. Yeah.

Well, let's take a quick break, and we'll come back with a question to wrap up. Okay, so we'll take a break, and we'll be right back to wrap up with Nedra. There's no shortcut for saving time, but saving money is simple. Just combine your car and home insurance with Bel Air Direct and save. Get a quote at belairdirect.com. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months. I survived and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the Survivor Files

I just remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying shut up don't say anything Every week I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable I knew if he woke up without a doubt he was going to hurt me I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.

Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages. On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I chose option B. I'm Julie Pinheiro and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word solita, trading the pity for possibility.

Every time I tried to be alone, I kept meeting people and they were like, you smiled at us. Not a lot of people smile around here. It's when you're alone that you're most receptive to the world as it is and not the lies you're sold about it. It can be a time where you push your limits, change your mind, or wake up to a new version of yourself. So whether you're a solo travel veteran or you're too nervous to book your first trip, I hope you listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb.

If you know me, you know I'm always searching for inspiration and useful tools to maximize joy. So this podcast lets us uncover those things together through meaningful conversations with fascinating people. Like when my friend Henry Winkler offered advice to aspiring actors and really anybody hoping to stand out. You're not hired just to fill time and space. You're hired to fill the space with you. You have something in your guts.

You go with it. And Shawn Johnson recalled the moment she realized her now husband, Andrew, was the one. He was just so unapologetically himself and knew nothing of Hollywood. He hadn't been on a plane before without his family. it was so pure. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. And we're back. And I have one last quick caller for us. So Allison is calling in. She says, Dear Chelsea, I'm adopted. I found my birth mother more than

25 years ago and my birth father at the same time. Over the past 25 plus years, I've built great relationships with my birth mother, my half-sister, adopted sister, cousins, etc. I've enjoyed those relationships immensely. I met my birth father once and have no relationship with him. My question is, do I approach my four half-brothers on his side, his sons, who he's told me have no idea I exist, and let them know they have a half-sister out here before they or I start dying and we entirely miss the chance to meet? My adopted sister found her birth family and is loving having two new brothers. She's very encouraging of me to reach out to these people,

but I'm on the fence. What do you two think? Should this family secret blow up or stay dormant? Allison. That's a tough one. Yeah. The other thing that she mentioned is they all live kind of in the same area

and she's worried about her kids and their kids like meeting and falling in love. Hi, Allison. How are you? I'm well. Thank you, Chelsea. How are you? I'm great.

This is Nedra Tawab, our special guest today. So you've discovered some of your family members and not all of your family members. Correct. I've known my birth mother and father for 30 years. I've had a relationship with my birth mother and that side of the family all this time. I have never had a relationship with my birth father and he has four sons whom I have never met, nor do I believe they know about me. Okay. What do you think, Nedra, about this? I have a question here. Whose secret is this? It would be my birth father's secret. Okay. Why do you feel the responsibility to keep someone else's secret? That is a very fair question. And I don't know, my grandmother

who raised me basically said she was very old school and she's like, don't you ever embarrass him by coming out and, you know, telling his kids about you. But my other, my adopted sister has met her family and she's like who cares he's an old like who cares why do you care so much and I don't I don't know I shouldn't I suppose but I'm here to hear your feedback so let me know yeah it sounds like a lot of shame management like I'm I'm going to manage his shame by not allowing this thing to come out that would make him feel some sort of way and you know be put in position to have certain conversations and confrontations and this sort of thing. So I will try to make him feel comfortable by keeping this secret, even though it's not my secret.

Yep. That about sums it up. And also you can easily just reach out to them and like leave the ball in their court. You know, you're reaching out to them. You give them the information. I'm your half sister. This is what happened. And then you're covering both. I live in the same community right is it the same town same community in northern california ish yes you all live in northern california we do yeah so okay i live in this area if and it's totally up to you if you guys because that way you're you're kind of accomplishing all of the things you need to accomplish you're not holding anyone's secret you're not managing anyone's shame and you're doing outreach you know and actually taking a step towards meeting them and then it's in their

court if they want to meet you. You know, you don't want to force that on anybody. If they're interested, great. And if they're not interested, OK, well, you tried. Right. I mean, there's no harm, no foul, really. And I agree. I mean, who cares about your birth father and his feelings like that? You have your own life and this is your decision. Yeah. And it sounds like you owe him very little. Like he seems like maybe he was a sperm donor, basically. And, you know, That's what I call him. Exactly. So I don't think you owe him much.

Do I give him a chance to tell them ahead by letting this other cousin know that this is my plan and like 30 days I'm going to come out and reach out to them and give him the chance to come clean ahead of time? Or do I just lay it out and let the chips fall where they may? Well, he's had 30 years to tell them. True. That's a very long time. I don't know if he needs 30 more days. Understood. yeah it's like you don't really owe him anything that's another courtesy yeah yeah i know it's just

so tied up in this whole like don't embarrass him like i don't know why he would be embarrassed it was a mistake 30 years or 57 years ago now yeah and there's not a lot of time i mean there's not i don't sorry to sound so morbid it's not that there's not a lot of time left but like enough time has gone by, you know, like to avoid it. And you're saying that your grandmother said that to you, you know, don't embarrass him. And there are always sentences that some adult has said to us that stick with us for the rest of our lives that hold such little meaning. It's in a moment where they're saying something and sometimes they don't even know what they've said, or they have no idea how hurtful what they've said is. I can think of a couple sentences my father said to

me where I was like, I will never ever forget those two sentences. And I know he would probably want to take that back if he could. So I wouldn't put so much value in what someone said to you about another person. Okay. And if your grandmother could speak now, she might have something different to say about the situation. I mean, she spoke from a place of being highly concerned about him and less concerned about you and seeing how you've struggled with this probably over the last 30 years. I think it's, you know, it's fair to say that perhaps she misspoke and your loyalty has been to her, but is she still alive? No. Okay. So that loyalty that you had with her, you know, it sounds like you've transferred it to your dad and you haven't

even talked to him about this for him to say that there's any embarrassment or, you know, any of these things that she assumes that he might feel so it's you know it's a lot of hearsay and sometimes this is the thing that's needed to break situations open it might explain a lot about who he is to his other children like who knows so I don't know if keeping this secret is something that will feel good to you yeah I love what you said about you know she might have something different to say now because it was also probably a very different time culturally when she said that right it was like back then it was this big you know shameful secret if you had a a child quote-unquote out of wedlock but you know things are different now yeah all right all right ladies

okay i guess i'm taking the plunge yeah lady go for it report back let us know how that works out okay well thank you so much for joining us thank you for all these wisdom pieces i loved your book I hope all of our listeners get it. And do you have another book? Yeah, I have a few books. I have Set Boundaries, Find Peace. I have Drama Free. And I have one coming out, Consider This, that will be out in October.

OK, great. Exciting. OK, well, thank you so much for being here, Nedra. You're welcome. And have a great day. You as well. OK, bye, listeners. We'll hear you and see you next week.

That's from you to us, not the other way around. okay so upcoming shows that i have you guys i'm coming to texas i'm coming to st louis and kansas city and then i will be in las vegas performing at the chelsea theater inside the cosmopolitan hotel i'm coming to brooklyn new york at the king's theater on november 8th and i have tickets on sale throughout the end of the year in december so if you're in a city like philadelphia or Bethlehem or San Diego or New Orleans or Omaha, check ChelseaHandler.com for tickets. Okay. If you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email at DearChelseaPodcast at gmail.com

and be sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered by Brad Dickert, executive producer, Catherine Law. And be sure to check out our merch at ChelseaHandler.com. i survived nine months in captivity and i've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them i'm elizabeth smart and these are the survivor files every week i'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable abducted stalked controlled and nearly silenced these are stories about what it takes to make it out alive listen to the survivor files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus, or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I chose option B. I'm Julie Pinheiro, and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word solita, trading the pity for possibility. Listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hoda Kotb, host of the podcast Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb. You know, I'm always searching for inspiration and useful tools to maximize joy. Like when my friend Henry Winkler offered advice to aspiring actors and really anybody hoping to stand out. You're not hired just to fill time and space. You're hired to fill the space with you. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Our hometown is not a test tube.

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