Life Will Be the Death of Me with Chelsea Handler - *Happy Enough* Isn’t Enough with Abby Wambach

Episode Date: February 29, 2024

Soccer star, author and podcaster Abby Wambach joins Chelsea to talk about doing the hard work, why life gives you whispers that come at just the right time, and how it feels to see your hard work pay off tenfold - for somebody else.  Then: A techie struggles to be taken seriously because of her look.  A sister is therapized and ready to apologize.  And a woman finds her marriage may be over… even though everything seems almost perfect.  * Check out Abby’s podcast We Can Do Hard Things here * Need some advice from Chelsea? Email us at [e-mail] * Executive Producer Catherine Law Edited & Engineered by Brad Dickert * * * * * The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the Podcast author, or individuals participating in the Podcast, and do not represent the opinions of iHeartMedia or its employees.  This Podcast should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, mental health counseling or therapy, or as imparting any health care recommendations at all.  Individuals are advised to seek independent medical, counseling advice and/or therapy from a competent health care professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issues, health inquiry or matter, including matters discussed on this Podcast. Guests and listeners should not rely on matters discussed in the Podcast and shall not act or shall refrain from acting based on information contained in the Podcast without first seeking independent medical advice.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. There's no shortcut for saving time, but saving money is simple. Just combine your car and home insurance with Bel Air Direct and save. Get a quote at BelAirDirect.com. I survived nine months in captivity, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus, or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I chose option B. I'm Julie Pinheiro, and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word solita, trading the pity for possibility. Listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, Katherine. Oh, hi, Chelsea. Hi, you're talking to a 49-year-old woman. Happy birthday.

Oh, what a birthday I had. Oh, so much love. You should see my house. Just covered in flowers and champagne and drugs and cheese. It's just a fantasy. I'm living out my fantasy. That's great. What did you do on the day? Well, I have some guests. I have about four friends at my house. They came in. So we had a big party Saturday night for my friend Kelly and I. We had a joint birthday party, which was really fun. Everybody got real fun, and we did dancing. We did dancing. We did dancing.

My friend's like, are you on Molly? Because you only dance when you're on Molly. I'm like, then I must be on Molly. Anyway, you know how much I love drugs. So we had a big party. Then we got up the next day, yesterday, for my birthday, and it was a blizzard, like blustery, crazy winds. That's a good thing, right? night for skiing? Well, I mean, it was pretty gnarly conditions, but for me, you know, it's

fine. I love it. I love the cold and I love that. And I mean, at one point I was skiing down a mountain and the wind was so strong, it stopped me. Like I'm going downhill and I just stopped. But I had a great time. I had a great dinner at my favorite restaurant last night with a bunch of my friends. And it was just one of those days, like lots and lots of laughter, lots of surprises. My friends always kind of set me up, set up a little surprise area, you know, on the mountain somewhere and they put up a little happy birthday banner and they were playing Bruce Springsteen for me and they had drinks and food and it was just really fun. You sound very loved up by all your friends.

I do feel loved. I feel very loved and I love everyone. And I also lost my phone, so I can't even check all my messages. I mean, that's great for your mental health. Just like no social media, no things. I know. Plus I put, oh yeah, I put, I put out my birthday video. So I have to see how that performed. I want to see what my reactions are, but my friend just DM me saying your birthday videos on the today

show. So I guess it was a big hit. Fantastic. Um, I added a second show in Vancouver. I added a second show in Sydney, Australia. I added the Santa Barbara bowl in August. Yay. You love it there. Huge. And so, yeah, that was, I performed there my last tour and I was like, I need to come here every time I perform. So that's exciting. And yeah, I have added a bunch of new tour dates. I'm going to be touring through all of 2024. I had such fun shows last weekend. We went to Edmonton and Calgary. I brought one of my daughters. Well, she's my son. We call her my son, but everyone's the opposite sex in our family. No one knows who's what. It doesn't really matter. They call me dad, so I have to call them a son. And we went to Edmonton and Calgary,

which were awesome shows again. So yeah. Anyway, I have Canadian dates left, But there's only tickets left for the Vancouver show, second show, March 30th. Awesome. Yeah. Great. That's the story, Morning Glory. Good. Are you watching anything good?

Anything on TV you're watching or movies you've seen? No, I've been reading and writing mostly in my spare time. I haven't watched anything in a few days. Yeah. I just went and saw, it's like barely on in the theaters anymore, but I just went and saw The Zone of Interest. Did you see it? No, no, no.

What's that? What's that? It is about Auschwitz. and it's about a family that lives right outside of Auschwitz and someone who works at the camp. And it is, and I guess they actually screened it at Auschwitz as well for people to come see it because it's such like an important film.

How lovely. I didn't know Auschwitz had a screening room. I didn't either, but you know. That place is really turned around. Yeah. It almost feels like a horror movie. It's very unnerving. And it's called Zone of Interest?

The Zone of Interest. Okay. And it's up for an Oscar or two as well. It's haunting in a way that you don't expect, and I've never seen anything like this with that topic. Oh, okay. Great, great. Yeah, would recommend.

I do have a follow-up from one of our callers from a recent episode. Akronefa, who called in on the Nicole Avant episode, she wrote in to thank us for chatting with her, and she says, I'm doing very well. Honestly, since having the opportunity to speak with Chelsea and Nicole, my perspective on losing my mom has changed. It was their insistence that our mothers are always with us. Something clicked in me, and I told myself that that's something I will never question

again. It almost felt sacrilegious to my own intuition and inner knowing to constantly question if my mom and ancestors are with me. So after that day, I made a decision to no longer question it, and it's stuck. I also forgot to mention this during the podcast, but Chelsea was part of my decision to do ayahuasca last year in Peru, and I got confirmation then, too, that my ancestors are all around me. I'm grateful to have had this fact confirmed again by Chelsea and Nicole. Sincerely, Akron Afa. I know. Just a total sweetheart. Okay. Our guest today is a two-time Olympic gold medalist

and author of the number one New York Times bestseller, Wolfpack. Together with her wife, Glennon Doyle, she co-hosts the award-winning, critically acclaimed We Can Do Hard Things podcast. So please welcome back to the show, Abby Wambach. Are you in Whistler? I am. Yes, I am. Where are you sister? It's in LA at home. Are you guys at the beach? We rented a place a block from our house that's actually like right on the beach so she can go and write and paint there and that's really fun. So we have like direct views. That's cute. When she's not painting and writing there what are you using the house for? Hanging out. Yeah we do our work most of our like real work in our real house. So we just go over there for fun watching the sunset. That's

cute. That's very cute. I haven't seen you since the Angel City game. That's right. Congrats on Angel City, by the way. What an incredible organization to be a part of. Yeah, it's so cool. We're so proud of it. And, you know, it's just kind of like the beginning. I mean, just in terms of the business itself and the business of women's sports and the business of women's soccer, things are really looking up. There's huge potential for growth. And literally to be sitting in the stands every single game every single home game for Angel City it feels actually like a dream because I was there 20 years ago when there was like 40 to 50 people in the stands and I was like still playing as hard as I could and so the experience for not

just the players is just drastically different but to just go in to be into that environment It's really special. It's really, really special. Yeah. I mean, I'm curious to hear about how it feels as a retired athlete to be a part of that, because it must be bittersweet. Yes. Very much jealous. There's a huge jealousy component. And also, this is kind of what I did all of that work for. Early on in my career, one of my coaches said to me, it was like the first year of my professional career he said well everything that you've billed it's going to be 10x 100x bigger 10 years after you retire and I was just like like fuck you like no way like

it's going to be big while I'm here you know like I'm going to reap the rewards for this and he's like no you won't and he was right sadly yeah I made money but I didn't make nearly as much money as they're making now which is really great you know the world cup the women's world cup is like one of the top four or five viewed sporting events on television in the world of all sports that's above the super bowl that's above the nba playoffs like the number four out of out of 10 so we're we've come a long way and yeah i wish i was out there playing capable of of still playing on some level but also i'm so tired like my body's old and it's fine and it's totally fine Both things can be true. I can have a little bit of FOMO and also just be sitting in the stands, you know, reveling at the women on the field.

Yeah, because you're part of it. You know, even though you're not on the field, you definitely have a big part in it. And so that must be fulfilling. It's fulfilling to watch females succeed from my vantage point when I don't really have. I mean, I've invested in a lot of female sports because of obviously the uptick and the, you know, it's like women have been underserved for so long. we serve it up and look how we show up for each other. It's obvious and ridiculous where we drive the entire economy. So that's really nice to see. I mean, you don't have to be in sports to appreciate that women are getting the attention that they deserve and the respect that they deserve. And we have a long way to go still, but it's nice to see it happening in strides, I would say. Okay. So listen, I know you started therapy recently.

Yes. I have been in and out of therapy since, I guess, college. My college coach forced me into therapy. I was not a willing participant, let's just say that. I was not doing well in school. I was really probably partying too much. And back then, this is in the late 90s, gayness wasn't cool or hip. It was like frowned upon. And she thankfully had a gay brother and noticed that I was kind of having some of these tendencies and wanted me to have somebody professional to talk to. So I got into therapy then and I just recently started about six months ago now, I guess. And it all started because I did an Enneagram test and we had an Enneagram expert on, her name is Suzanne Stabile. She's incredible. And she basically kind of said,

look you're an enthusiast you need to work on your shadow side and when she said it like it was like this full body like okay finally you're right I know it I've always known it I've avoided the sadness I've avoided the pain of my life I've avoided and I you know for a lot of years I used I used drugs and alcohol to numb the moments of those pains and sadnesses and grief and heartbreak and so I decided to be kind of proactive about it and I've been doing quite a bit of work and it's been really fucking fascinating Chelsea I have to tell you and I didn't know this at the time but you know my brother passed away a couple months ago so the world and the universe kind of works in interesting ways to help you know these little whispers help you prepare for what's ahead

and so that that's been really helpful through the grieving process of losing my brother I'm so sorry about your brother yeah it's so sad and it's so it was such a tragic you know he's 51 and I'm so glad that I started this work six months ago I'm so glad that I started to like create a relationship with the sadder parts of myself and that has been kind of a revolution for me and p.s like still in the middle of this grief shit like wow it's intense it's really something but I have like the professionals in my life to help steer and guide me and you know glennon's obviously very enlightened in the world of feeling things and so just weird because glennon is working on we're kind of like we've switched positions she's working on different stuff and

i'm working on this sadness piece and the sorrow and this grief piece right now and i just think that therapy has been and every time i go i'm about to go into a therapy session i'm like i should probably just cancel i don't really need it totally that's exactly what happens when you need it the most, right? Yeah. I don't, I don't really need this. And then after the therapy session, I'm like, oh, okay. That was smart. I I'm glad that I did not cancel. Yes. Well, do you think there's a relationship between having a relationship with the sad parts of yourself and your shot in your relationship with your shadow self? Cause I think let's talk about the shadow self for those of us who are listening, who aren't really familiar with that

term. What does that mean to you, Abby? I would say, I would say sadness is a component of my shadow side. So as like a Gemini, I'm born June 2nd. So my sign is Gemini. I have like two parts to myself. I have always identified more with the happy, joy, enthusiastic, light parts of myself. And I have pretty much ignored all of the sad, depressing, grieving, sorrow, heartbreak, shadow sides it's easier to kind of think about as in like light and dark however the more work I'm doing the more I'm understanding that those are just binaries that that help our brains understand what feelings are and recently I feel like words are so incomplete when it comes to this this deep hard work that i'm trying to do so the way that i would think about the shadow side are

the parts of myself because glenn and i we do ifs which is internal family systems we're versed in it and that's kind of the the way in which we are entering into the therapy space we all have parts of ourselves and if you can imagine sitting at like a a table and and you have like a capital s part which is like the wise the smart the one that knows all the other parts the one that accepts and loves all the other parts of yourself the shadow side is like the fear and the terror and the anger and the trauma and the judging like all of these parts that are part of who we are part of why we are the way we are for certain reasons based on our experiences, based on our families, based on our past. And those parts of

myself, I've never really given a voice at the table. I've never given a chance to speak up. I'm like, nope, putting you away, locking you in the room, don't like you. And I've gotten heartbroken before. And so I then utilized all these other modalities to avoid, to numb, to not deal with. So the irony of this grief now that I'm going through is that because I have so many other unresolved heartbreaks or grief that I've gone through, I'm also dealing with them. It's like fucking whack-a-mole. I'm like, Jesus Christ. Okay. Okay. We're going to go to 1996 here. Oh, okay. Great. Let's go. So that's kind of how I would, I would talk about the shadow side of, of myself at least. And it's complicated. It's not, it's not like one size fits all. It's

not black or white. It's not good or bad. It's just like the human experience that I'm trying to have. I'm trying to experience it more fully. And the more I do this work, the more I realized the shadow side is not dark. It's just a part of the spectrum of my humanity. And it's something that I've kind of always been a little afraid of, meaning like afraid of death, you know, all of the Catholic things that I was indoctrinated into believing, I'm trying to unwind and unbelieve because I don't think that it's light and dark or good or bad. It's just people, complicated people having gone through complicated circumstances that create parts of ourselves that we either want to face or we don't.

And I'm finally just wanting to face myself now. Wow. Yeah, I think a lot of us can relate to you learn so much about yourself through therapy that you have to start to unlearn so many things. The more you learn, the more you need to unlearn. That's right. And so it's like this toggle back and forth. And I know personally, I didn't understand what shadow self meant for a long time.

And when I was in therapy, it was revealed to me. But I assumed all those negative thoughts or wanting bad things to happen to bad people or people to get their karma that they deserved or to be invidious of another. Those were all qualities that made me a bad person when those are just thoughts that are happening. You don't have to subscribe to them or participate even in them. It's a totally normal and human nature to have negative thoughts about situations, about yourself, about others, to have lustfulness, to have jealousy, to have any of the things that are thought to be negative. And the actual healthiest way to deal with all of that is by acknowledging that they

exist and not letting them overpower you. And by that acknowledgement that all of these thoughts exist in all each of us, you aren't letting them overpower you. It's when you are denying those thoughts and trying to put them away where they do take over. It's good. That's exactly right. It's really good.

And I think also what's interesting about what you're saying is one of the things that people who refuse to go to therapy, people who refuse to seek help, they think they can get away with that and that it won't knock on their door. And your grief and your trauma don't go anywhere. They only get bigger inside of you. They get bigger and bigger and bigger until there is a break. And then sometimes that break is disastrous to your well-being. And sometimes it's easily recoverable. You can go to therapy, you can like, you know, seek out answers and it can be trying, but like there is no shortcut around it. So by evading all of these issues, and there are people in my life who do this, who are like, I don't have anything to, I have nothing to learn.

Like, I don't want to deal with it. I don't want to go there. And it's like, okay, but it doesn't, your life doesn't have to be this way. There is unadulterated joy and bliss waiting on the other side for you if you just have the bravery and guts to go through this little tricky path that you're going to have to go through. Yeah, it's scary. It's scary.

It's expensive. like it feels like therapists are impossible to get booked right now and and and so I do want to just say like it is a privileged position I do feel privileged to be able to provide and create an environment to be in a therapy space but I come from a family who doesn't really subscribe to it I mean I have a couple of brothers and sisters who are in therapy but for the most part my family's like therapy what are you gonna you know what is that gonna teach me and I don't think that we get away with much as human beings I think that some things haunt us you know like we have like a deeper knowing like I mean it's like when Suzanne said I think that you're gonna

have to spend some time working on your shadow side it was like the secret I have been keeping to myself from myself that she exposed out loud and I was like oh yeah yeah yeah that's the thing I've been avoiding my whole life. That's the work I need to do. And I'm finally, you know, in a space that I've been sober for, you know, seven, eight years now. And I'm solid in my marriage with Glennon. And we're finally like in a place where we're both doing like extremely personal work on our own selves. And I think that we both needed to find each other to be able to do this work. And so I do feel lucky to be able to do it. But I also know that there, I don't, I don't know if we get away with much I think that I think that even in our last breath

it's something that will I just want to make my transition into the next phase of whatever existence is after life I want to make that as peaceful as possible and so I want to do the work so that I feel like all of it has been all of the stones have been unturned as much as I possibly can. And also, so you don't have to repeat performance, right? Like, God forbid we are being reincarnated and come back. I don't want to come back. I want this to be the last rodeo. Like, let me, I just want to nail everything I'm supposed to nail. Give me a challenge. I'm fucking on it. You know what I mean? I don't want any hoops to jump through after this. I want to go to sleep. Okay. So we're going to take some callers, Abby. Thank you for your openness. I

think it's always fascinating to hear about, you know, people's lives changing. I mean, people's lives are always changing and being open to it is such a beautiful, bountiful thing to do. Like to be open to change in your life and to not have this narrow minded view of things is just like, it's the key to freedom and happiness. 100%. Okay. We're going to take a break and we'll be right back. There's no shortcut for saving time, but saving money is simple. Just combine your car and home insurance with Bel Air Direct and safe. Get a quote at belairdirect.com. When I was 14 years old,

I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months. I survived and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the Survivor Files. I just remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying shut up don't say anything every week i'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable i knew if he woke up without a doubt he was going to hurt me i started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed and i just started screaming they are abducted stalked controlled

and nearly silenced but these aren't stories about what's taken from them they're stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.

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Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages. And we're back with Abby Wambach, Olympic gold medalist and author also. Okay, so we have some questions, Catherine. We have some callers. Let's get going.

Let's see what we've got on the deck for today. This next question I think fits in exactly with what we were just talking about, but Allison says, Dear Chelsea, I've gone through some changes in the last six months and have become very introspective and reflective. I've started working on myself in order to be more confident and happy in my life, and one thing I'm looking for help with is forgiving myself of awful things that I've said to people in the past when I was insecure and hurting. Obviously, I would never say these things now that I've grown as a person, but sometimes

when I'm meditating or just thinking to myself, a memory reminds me of a time when I was a manager in retail and snapped at a subordinate or didn't take someone's mental health issues seriously. I've also said mean things when my temper flares up. I won't remember saying it, but my sister says that I really hit below the belt sometimes when I'm mad. As I've learned to calm down and not lose control, thanks Chelsea, I hardly get mad anymore and have learned to take a beat before responding. I know I need to stop beating myself up about it, But is it really worth apologizing to these people for things I said years ago? I know we give ourselves closure, but I'm wondering if others need that too.

Thanks so much for all your help. This podcast has been a real part of my progression in self-awareness. Sincerely, Allison. And I should say her subject line was therapized and ready to apologize. So therapy has been a big part of this transition, I think, for her. I mean, that's a very interesting question because it's like, how big was the infraction and how offensive were you? And is there a need to apologize so many years later if it was like you snapping at an employee?

I mean, if you really feel the need to go and do that, then yes, go. But also, it should be measured. Don't bring up something that someone is probably not going to even remember. I mean, it's a nice idea, but it's more kind of selfish than anything else in terms of if it wasn't a big deal and you're just like, you know, trying to make yourself feel better. I mean, you obviously know if there are people in your life that you really hurt and that starts with your family and your closest friends. When you're talking about employees and if there's like, I would say there's a statute of limitations with regards to employees. Like if it was five

years ago and you snapped at someone, I don't know that you need to send that person a letter. You can, but that's up to you. I just don't think that's a requirement. If your sister has called you out on it repeatedly, then that's the person you need to apologize to. And any other people that have called you out on it and said that their feelings have been hurt. And I personally subscribe to this theory of you always get a chance to make a new impression. And while this isn't true for everyone in your life, you usually circle around the people that you've hurt as an opportunity to resurface in a way where they can see that you've changed and they can see your growth and you can act in kindness and you can kind of make a new impression to replace the last

impression. I believe that to be true. That has been true in my life. And when I have that opportunity, I take it. So it's more of like the opportunity presenting itself and me taking it and leveling up to that moment, not seeking out the moments, but that's just me. So it's whatever is going to be best for your development and your peace of mind. But also just think about when you're dealing with these instances who has really been hurt and who was just like okay whatever that's just a you know a moment in a day that they're nobody's going to remember totally i also i just want to add it sounds to me a little bit like you have a little bit more work to do in in the self-forgiveness department because once you can access and create a

relationship with yourself around that kind of forgiveness of maybe what headspace you were in or what protective parts were were rising up in you to say these you know mean things or whatever it might be if you do actually truly understand those elements then self-forgiveness can come because you can understand that you were just trying to protect yourself for whatever reason We all were born and raised in different families, in different houses, with different belief systems. You have different traumas. You have different backgrounds. You have different experiences than all of the people that you meet in your life that give evidence as to why we respond in certain circumstances rather than others. And I think that if you can do a little bit more digging as to the why of where you were at the time, what made you respond or interact with people in certain ways that now make you feel bad, there was – I mean, this is the work of – for me that I've done in my sobriety because, you know, the shame is what just took me down for so many years and kept me in the fight, kept me in the grips of addiction for so long. And until I figured out that addiction was serving a part of me, that it was protecting me, that it was protecting me in some ways, I was then and only then able to forgive myself for the self-harm that I was inflicting upon myself. And that is when I realized, oh, OK, then the amends come out because you don't have

shame around the action. So then you can go and say all of your apologies, whether they land or not, is not your business, right? You only can clean up your side of the street. So that's all I'll say. I love that. I think that's very true because, yeah, we can also belabor like our bad behavior. And it's like that's not an act of kindness or forgiveness to anyone either sitting there

and ruminating over what you did, what you did. It's like you should also be able to recalibrate your focus on the future and changing that behavior and not repeating past mistakes. That's right. And that also gives you a sense of, oh, okay, some of those apologies may not be necessary because you've actually learned that you can do better when you know better. Yep. That's right. And I think, you know, if you do decide to, like, DM an old coworker or, you know, discuss it with your sister, I think Chelsea's point of not making it about yourself is really important. So like rather than saying I've changed, I've changed, just like focus on like here is my apology for how I was before.

And making it light. Like, you know, I've been doing some work on myself and I felt like this might have been a pretty crappy thing to say to you at this time. Just want to let you know I apologize. You know, and then that's actually takes it all off of your plate and you don't have to even look for a response. And if you get one, great. And that's a generous, gracious person. Yeah. Our next question comes from Erin.

She is a graphic designer. Erin says, Dear Chelsea, on your episode with Z-Way, you talked about aging and how there's a double standard for women. I've been thinking more about that and wanted your advice. I've always looked, quote, young for my age. Recently, several people have told me how young I look. These were isolated events and by themselves didn't bother me, but the collection of experiences have me feeling self-conscious. On one hand, I'm youthful, and society tells me that's a good thing, and I'm so lucky. On the other hand, as I advance in my career, I wonder if my appearance is holding me back. I work in a male-dominated field, world really, and feel like I'm already second-guessed because I'm a woman. I worry that looking younger is not helping my case. I've been interviewing for some jobs, and some are in leadership positions. My mom suggested I wear more makeup in interviews to look older, but first, I suck at makeup, and second, it seems disingenuous. I want to be respected for being me. I've seen a lot of sexism

in the corporate world and I'm definitely jaded. I just don't know what to do. If I need to change my appearance, dress more mature, I've even considered wearing fake glasses to get more respect. Any advice would be great. Erin. Hi, Erin. Hi. Yo, yo, yo. How's it going? Thanks for having me. Yeah, this is Abby Wambach, our special guest for today. Hi. Abby, what are your thoughts on that? Well, I have a lot of thoughts, mostly because I haven't subscribed to the patriarchal ideas of what womanhood could be. I've kind of gone the opposite route. However, I've recently texted Chelsea a couple of months ago because my face is starting to get older and I'm getting you know crow's feet and discolored eyes the whole thing so trying to

figure out what the next steps are because you are going to get older I do understand that it might feel bad to present younger and you aren't getting the same kind of respect I also think you teach people how to treat you one way or another energetically I mean I kind of like the idea that you might be seen as like an underdog I thrive in that like oh you think that I'm young oh you think I'm not good enough like oh I can't wait to prove you wrong to me it feels like it can be a positive but I totally understand how it can feel lonely and debilitating on some level to try to progress in your career I'm not the person to talk about makeup with because I'm like no makeup is the best option I'm kind of same boat so yeah yeah and I don't think that I mean

how old are you I'm 28 okay you you look like you're 28 to me I don't feel like yeah everyone else in my life lately has been telling me differently but that's good to hear I guess Yeah. I hate the idea. I dealt with my friend with this recently, or my friend is dealing with this in her job recently, that she needed to be dressing in a certain way for men to take her seriously. And I take a lot of offense to that. Like, I really don't think we should be reorganizing our looks to make people respect us more.

That's not where respect comes from. Yeah, you want to throw on a pair of glasses, great. But it's your disposition and it's your self-assuredness that are going to gain respect from others and your work and your performance at work. So when you sharpen all of those things and focus on the task at hand, it's going to be indisputable, like how valuable you are based. You know what I mean? Your looks are going to become there. They're the first thing that people see and the first thing that people ingest, unfortunately, but that doesn't have to be the way it remains. And I think our behavior dictates how we are treated in a workplace, even when you are

surrounded by men because eventually after enough time goes by and you prove yourself to be a valuable employee, people are going to respect that and expect you to deliver value, right? They're going to expect. And so I think the quickest road there is the direct one where you're just proving by your performance, how valuable you are and standing assuredly in your own shoes, you know, standing up tall, standing up for yourself, not waffling, not wavering when men are trying to intimidate you or they're just intimidating you and they're not trying, you actually, that's a signal for you to be like, okay, this is my opportunity. This is my opportunity to stay on my ground. This is my opportunity to make a contribution here, whether

it's conversational, whether it's like workflow wise, or it's about a project. It's actually like an opportunity to gain respect each time that you deliver something of value. Because what I'm hearing from you is that you have a lot of self-respect, right? Yeah. So use that in your job And then that is going to be an undeniable thing to people. Once you just keep putting that foot forward, people are going to realize your value and you're going to get past the hair and the makeup and all that bullshit. That's all noise. That's not real.

Nobody can be judged solely based on their appearance. That was a very hard lesson for me to learn because I believed everyone was supposed to be physically attractive for me to connect with. That's what I believed for a long time. I was like, oh, I don't like the way that person looks. I don't think we can connect. It's like, wait, what? I mean, people aren't here to physically please me. So the opposite is true for you too. You are

physically pleasing to many people, but that is not where your value comes from. So the two things are very separate and they should stay separate. And I wouldn't count out to what anybody's expectations are. You don't need to dress up or any of that bullshit. That's nonsense. You stick to what you know and you stick to what you're good at and people will catch on i also think you said something in in your letter that is really important you said i'm starting to become self-conscious and that is problematic when you start only seeing yourself through the eyes from other people towards yourself becoming self-conscious is to become aware of who you are and then to see out with your own eyes to become the positive way of being like to know thyself

is such an important quality but watch the vantage point the vantage point is really important when it comes to self-consciousness and i think that the male gaze we forget that we shouldn't be putting our consciousness in the eyes of the male gaze yeah that's something i struggle with for sure is how people perceive me constantly yes I mean welcome to humanity we all do it Instagram all social media it makes us all fucking crazy like that but at the end of the day you have to figure out what you want to feel and how you want to look I mean our kids they use makeup and stuff and we are conscious we're always trying to ask them like are you doing this for you or for other people. And they know better. They're in high school now. They're like, I'm doing it for my

own sense of self. And we're like, okay, we'll deal with that problem another day. But that self-consciousness piece was something that really stuck out in your letter. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. And I think people are sort of simple when it comes to someone wearing a power suit and a pair of glasses. Some people might think they're smarter or more powerful, but you have to do what makes you feel powerful when you're going into these interviews. And to me, it doesn't sound like throwing on too much mascara is going to actually make you feel more powerful. Right. It'll make you feel a little awkward. So I think, yeah, going in with the look that makes you feel most powerful and also like you seem like a very

confident person. So like really channeling that. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. And resting in who you really are is actually the most powerful version of yourself that you can be, regardless of whether what situation, whether it's a work dynamic or whether it's a personal dynamic or it's a new person dynamic that you don't know, not pushing and actually resting in who you are, being present minded. When you are there and you are in focus, that's what creates a flow state. That's when you are really there, working to the best of your ability and focusing on what your strengths are, knowing that you're a value, that projects to the next person. Then that comes off of you. And then that's, that's kind of an undeniable way to be, you know, people can't argue with

that because they don't know what it is, but they know that they need to respect it. That's right. Well, thank you so much. Well, you're welcome so much. Good luck. Thank you. So go into your next meeting and tell all those jackasses to go fuck off. I will.

Perfect. Tell them I sent you. Oh, I will. Bye. Bye. The Burning Up Tour, and celebrate the biggest Jonas Brothers hits that have defined a generation. One incredible celebration. One unforgettable night.

See the Jonas Brothers live at RBC Amphitheater, September 28th. Get tickets now at Ticketmaster.ca. Jonas Brothers, The Burning Up Tour, all over again. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months. I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files. I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.

I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations,

or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages. Okay. All right. Well, our next caller is Chloe. Chloe says, Dear Chelsea, Longtime fan, love the show. I'm in my mid-30s and have been with my husband for over 10 years.

We met in my early 20s and have had a really great relationship. We've always been a bit different, me being more adventurous, outgoing, and a dreamer. He's more down-to-earth and practical. He's handsome, has a good career, and has always treated me well. I always thought that our opposites attract type relationship was a good thing, but as the years have gone on, I feel like we've only grown more different, and this has caused a lot of resentment. I feel like I'm being stifled and not living to my full potential in an effort to help

him feel more comfortable. I have a lot of things that I'm passionate about my career home renovation travel. I fucking love skiing and my friends And side note about the home renovation. They recently purchased like a house to restore it together And I think that's been sort of a bone of contention All of this can be very overwhelming for my husband Additionally, i've always been straightforward about not wanting kids and although he says he's okay with this his words and actions throughout the years Make me think otherwise I don't want either of us to have to compromise so significantly for the other,

and there hasn't been cheating, lies, or scandal that people typically associate with a good reason for divorce, so am I wrong to feel that I might want one? I recently asked him for a trial separation, and he has been devastated by this. Although some friends are very supportive, others think I'm crazy for leaving such a good man. Sometimes I do too. As an outsider, do you feel my concerns could warrant a divorce, or do I try and work it out? Chloe. Hi, Chloe.

Hey. how's it going? Hi, how are you? This is Abby, our special guest. Hi, Abby. Hi, Chelsea. Hi, Catherine. Hi. Hi, Chloe. So you asked your husband for a trial separation, but you're not separated yet? Not officially. So listening to your letter be read by Catherine, I did not think you were going to go there. Can you get into more specifics of like what drove you to this separation? It seems that he's leaning on you a little bit more heavily. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think that, you know, with relationships, it's never like one, I mean, it can be, but a lot of times it's never just one specific thing. And I think that the final breaking point for me

is we have this incredible, incredible home that I'm obsessed with. It's kind of like my project. it brings me a lot of purpose and joy. He fucking hates it. And we just kept arguing about it. And really it was just the culmination of everything of where our relationship was going. Him wanting maybe a little bit more of a simple life, simple career, maybe starting a family and me going in this other direction where I'm really growing a lot in my career, growing a lot in my passions. I still absolutely love to travel and be with my friends and have a really busy, crazy life that doesn't include the family. And there was just something that happened with this house that we have that was just a breaking point. I was just like, I got to step away from this. I just

don't know if we are headed in the right direction anymore. Well, it sounds like he shouldn't be a part of that project to begin with. Because first of all, the number one reason couples break up is from house renovations. That happens. I was in a relationship with a man. We were building, we bought these things and we were renovating them. And our designer was like, the number one reason couples break up is because of this. And I was like, oh my God, who are those people? Cut to, we fucking broke up. So I mean, because he was so annoying about this. And I was like, I don't give a fuck. Like I couldn't believe he wanted to go to all these appointments with me. And it was just so annoying, but like, it's

not for everybody. That's your passion clearly and not his. So like, does he need to be involved? So we tried it both ways. We've flip-flopped it several times. We've had this home for about five years now. And we've tried it where he's fully involved. We've tried it where it's partly involved, completely not involved. And none of the options have worked. None of the options have worked. None of the options have worked. Okay. And so you think a trial separation is where you're at?

We are in trial separation right now, but we've been doing this now for a while, probably about six months or so. And I think where I'm at right now that I really need some help and advice on is I don't feel any different than I did when I asked for this. When I asked for this, I actually felt really relieved. And the things that I do that are kind of separated from him excite me. And when I think about getting back together, I'm like, it gives me a lot of anxiety, to be honest. and the hard part is is he is overall a very good man he is honest he is good looking he has a great job he's always been very good to me but I feel like I'm at this breaking point of like is this still what I want to do for the rest of my life I'm fucking scared of being alone am I

giving up somebody who is a really, really good person who loves me a lot just for the sake of more freedom. Are you guys in therapy? Yes. Yeah. And has that gleaned any different feelings for you or is it just... Not really. I feel like it's just a competition constantly of like, who's the better person or who's the worst person. I feel like we've changed therapists three times and uh unfortunately you should change therapists if they're not working that's what the problem so many people is that they think that they're stuck with the one they found it's like no there are a million therapists out there and while they may be very busy right now there's always somebody else you know but i don't know i mean from what you're saying it seems like you're

you have one foot out the door and you are out the door and i mean a lot of people would be listening to this and i'm sure are going what's this woman's problem you've got all these things that so many women would want, but it's still not enough for you. And that's fine too. Like you should know what's enough for you. If this is going to fulfill you, you're saying that you're being excited by all these other things outside of your life that aren't involved in your marriage. I mean, that's your answer right there, right? And you want me to tell you to leave your husband? Gosh, I don't, I mean, it's so fucking hard, you know, like, Yeah, you're right.

A lot of women, including my friends, including my mother, they're all like, are you crazy? You know, he's crazy about you and you've got such a good thing going that so many people want, but I don't know, maybe I am crazy and maybe I do. No, I don't think you're crazy. I just want to acknowledge all the women that are listening to this thinking, because I know they are going, oh my God, what's this woman complaining about? And I would like to say, good for you for knowing that this isn't enough. like it good for you for being in touch with yourself enough to know, okay, I'm scared of

being alone, but I'm not scared enough to not do it. That is a very powerful thing for a woman to feel. And I applaud that. And I think that, you know, the answers to these questions. And so I'm not going to give you any answers because I'm not going to decide your relationship for you because you've already figured it out. Abby, you're nodding. What are you thinking? Well, I think that i don't know chelsea i don't think you've been married and divorced right no no i didn't want to get divorced so i didn't get married yeah so i i think i might be the only one who's been through a divorce on this on this little perfect why don't you take it and i mean chelsea you said it right it sounds to me like you already know what you know and you're pulling the crowd which

you know all of these people myself included can give you all the advice in the world but you're the only one that really knows what you want and people grow apart i mean i cared so much for my first wife like we were we were mad about each other and then things change life happens you get to change your mind you get to go in a different a totally different direction what i want to say and this is was true for me and I think it's true for all of us there's something inside of you might be deep you might be just starting to listen to her but there's a part of you that is inside of you that you are listening to and it's always been there and just turn up the volume on her a little bit now it doesn't mean you're going to get a divorce I have no idea but there's

something that it's trying to say and I think that that you deserve to sit and listen to that little part of you and p.s no matter what you decide I'm here to tell you it's going to be okay yeah yeah it is it already is okay because you've got you and that was one thing that I forgot when I was going through my divorce because I was so enmeshed with my ex that I forgot that I had me independent of that other person and that is a hard truth to to swallow especially because you committed to this marriage. And PS, if you do choose to get a divorce, that does not mean that your marriage was a failure. These are contracts. Maybe your contract with this person is up. That's for you to decide. And it's going to be okay. And I know how fucking hard it is.

And I'm sorry, because it is a really big stress and it is hard. Both things can be true at the same time. Staying is hard. Leaving is hard. Thank you so much. I mean, so much of what you said hits. So true. I do feel like there is this internal voice that's just like screaming that something's not right. Chills. I just got chills all over my body. Yeah. And also, you know, it's not going to feel like this initially, but when you leave a situation that isn't right for you, you're acting in service to both of you, to you and your husband, because he does, he deserves to be with someone who does love him and who he can share his life with and you know not have to have a person there kind of figuring out there is no such thing as one

way liberation Liz Gilbert says that there is no such thing as one way liberation you will be doing him a service also no I I believe that too you know especially with the although he says that he is happy enough with me to stay with just me together without having a family I do think deep down. That's really what he wants to. And I think that in the, I could really see that for him in the future. And I want him to have that if that's what he really wants. Yeah. Happy enough. Isn't good enough. So true. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm glad you called in. I'm so grateful and glad that you guys have me, honestly. I mean, I've, I tried a lot, tried therapy, I've tried tarot, a lot of things. I'm like, hey, I'm going to try Chelsea and whatever awesome guest she has on

board. Awesome. Thank you so much for calling in and good luck to you. Thank you. Bye. That's a good caller for our listeners to listen to. Yeah. It's almost like the answer is easier when it's like, okay, this person is a monster. When the person's not a monster, it's such a harder decision. Yeah. But it's like, it's so powerful to just go, this is good, but it's not good enough yeah this isn't enough for me like that's our lives are supposed to be as as great as we can possibly make them not just like okay i hit this marker i'm good right abby what what you never are you a seven enthusiast on the enneagram okay yeah i'm an eight your name what is an eight chelsea what's an eight an eight is a fixer like come in fix it and then but but harsh

like hard like just wants to come in fix everybody's problems and then fuck off that's exactly who I am. I'm like, please don't bother me again. Okay. But seven, that's interesting to know the enthusiast has to do work on their shadow self because the enthusiast is like the happiest kind of number on the spectrum, I think. Forward-facing, like big vibes, good vibes, happy. Yeah. So that's interesting because yeah, I have this new therapist who says like, if this is true, the equal and opposite thing is true. That's right. Like if you're feeling great and you're feeling expansive and you want and you're just joyful, like be careful because the equal and opposite part is true, too. And you're just not tuned into that.

And it's like, oh, OK, that's important to know. You know, everything is a balance. You're not just nobody is one thing. And in fact, if somebody is a lot of one thing, they're also a lot of the opposite of that thing. That's right. And I think that I I mean, my whole family would describe me as like an M&M. I have like a hard exterior shell, but I'm so gooey and like soft on the inside. But because of what I did for so long as an athlete, you know, I basically put on armor to protect myself from these parts of sadness or sorrow or heartbreak or grief.

And I did a really good job because I'm very strong and I'm very powerful and I have a lot of willpower. but yeah I mean all the parts of yourself have to get seen and they need the light of day it's hard work I tell you what it's not easy it's not easy to sit and literally sit in the grief and let it drop from your head you know I went through a few weeks of bargaining and trying to find the justice in it and trying to understand it and make meaning of it and it's like I don't I don't think that that's, you can't do grief in your head. It's just got to go through you all through your body. And, you know, Chelsea, I know you lost your brother when you were super young, which is a different experience, but it's just like, it's the worst. And also oddly the

best. It's weird to go through the, to go through it the way that I'm going through it. It's like, I'm really, I feel like I'm really trying, I'm honoring my brother, whatever the fuck that means. Well, I think as an adult, especially someone who has been to therapy, you have way more tools to deal with that kind of loss. And you can make more sense out of it, even though it's senseless. It is a fact of life and a part of life that we all have to deal with is losing loved ones. and as we get older we have more skill sets and we have more capacity to understand that life is bigger than what we know and that we know less than we think we do and we accept that we don't know and there are things we don't have answers to and that we never will and so trying to make sense out of death is pointless there is no sense it's not sensical it's the same thing that's what happens in war it's not sensical there's no way to make sense of it you know so i think you know

your body has to go through a grieving process separate from your mind and you have to have a lot of work under your belt to understand the difference between those two things and that they can that they your mind and body work in concert and but they're also very disconnected you know until you do the work to connect them that's why like when people get nervous they start shaking or they start quivering it's like that's because your brain is sending your body a signal that you're not comfortable that you're not prepared that you're scared that you're fearful, that you're nervous, whatever those signals are. It's like, that's how everything works. And that circuitry, it's not easily measured. So people don't take it seriously,

you know, energy and, and, and body, mind, chemistry and connection. I mean, we're learning more about it now, but it is fascinating. And I love to learn about that because you hear about so many people, you know, they have a physical reaction to something, but they don't understand why because their brain has repressed that memory, but their body remembers that feeling. Well, yeah, being an athlete, I think that especially an elite athlete for 30 plus years, I learned how to mind over matter physical experience. So the suffering that it takes, the lifting weights, the sprints, the diet, like whatever it was, I was able to do it. And so I have this unconscious belief, I think, that I can beat grief, that, like, I don't need to do it because I know how to mentally leapfrog all of these difficult things, these outward, these external struggles. And that just ain't it.

It's just not it. And I've thought a lot about that in the last few months. Like, oh, my gosh, like, this is unlike anything I have been tested at. And it's confusing for my body because my body's like, we can do anything. You are a superstar. Like what's happening? And my body's like, nope, can't do it. Like just even these last two weeks, I've been like, I can't even go for a walk.

I've just like cocooned myself. And there's this like little wise part of myself that's like speaking up going, yes, this is what you need. Be still. you have used your body to jump out of grief before you have used your body to overcome and not pay attention to some of this stuff so it's to be still feel sorrow feel sad whatever it might be absolutely okay we're gonna take a break and we'll be right back to wrap things up with abby wong back there's no shortcut for saving time but saving money is simple just

combine your car and home insurance with Bel Air Direct and save. Get a quote at belairdirect.com. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months. I survived and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the Survivor Files. I just remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying shut up don't say anything every week i'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable i knew if he woke up without a doubt he was going to hurt me i started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed and i just started screaming they are abducted stalked controlled and nearly silenced but these aren't stories about what's taken from them

There's stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island

to deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. From best-selling authors and your favorite BookTok creators to the latest pop culture moments,

nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages.

Okay, we're back. Abby, thank you for your candor. I loved hearing you talk about therapy. I'm sure many of our listeners also loved it. It's so nice when you are able to talk freely about getting help right like yeah it's such a gift to other people to hear that you're not nobody's alone and nobody's going through something that no one else has been through because that's just not true that's right every person on the planet has and is or is currently experiencing something that you're experiencing like this experience down here is not one-sided we're doing it together whether we will like that or not it's happening and there are there are experts out there that can help navigate and help us navigate for ourselves

the life that we want and the way in which we want to go about it right and I and I get that not everybody buys into some forms of therapy but there are so many different kinds of therapy you know you have talk therapy you have a lot of psychedelic stuff that's happening in the world you've got for me this IFS internal family systems people should look into it because it's a totally different approach where it makes it so much less personal which feels counterintuitive but it really works for me because especially with all the shame stuff that I could go down with it with my addictive behaviors there's just so many different kinds so maybe you go to a therapist and it doesn't work for you find a different therapist that's in a different like genre of

of therapy yeah IFS I've read about and I'm interested and curious to hear more about it we should find somebody who can speak to that Catherine on the podcast. Cause I liked what I read so far. Dick Schwartz is the guy we actually just had him on our podcast. Um, he's like the father of it. And he, he took me Glennon and Amanda through an exercise, an IFS exercise, which I think you should just have him on. It's, it's super interesting. I think that you would actually really, really like it, Chelsea. Love it. Okay. Well, then we will. Thank you, Abby, so much so great to see you so good to see you guys thank you so much for having me yeah anytime take care and come back for sure okay so Chelsea Handler is my name and comedy is my game comedy

and therapy they are my games I'm sorry I misspoke I have added more shows I added a second show in Vancouver we so I have two shows in Vancouver March 29th March 30th I am coming to Calgary Victoria, Kelowna then I've added another show in Sydney, Australia on July 13th so I have two shows in Sydney July 12th and 13th for other shows in Australia and New Zealand

go to ChelseaHandler.com and I've added two shows in Oklahoma Norman, Oklahoma on May 3rd and one in Thackerville, Oklahoma which is May 4th and then I'll be at the YouTube Theater May 11th in Los Angeles with Mateo Lane and Vanessa Gonzalez

and Fortune Feimster and sam jay those are my updates and more shows are coming so pay attention if you'd like advice from chelsea shoot us an email at dear chelsea podcast at gmail.com and be sure to include your phone number dear chelsea is edited and engineered by brad dickert executive producer katherine law and be sure to check out our merch at chelsea handler.com i survived nine months in captivity and i've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them i'm elizabeth smart and these are the survivor files every week i'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable abducted stalked controlled and

nearly silenced these are stories about what it takes to make it out alive listen to the survivor files with elizabeth smart on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts hey this is hayes davenport and sean clements we host the podcast hollywood handbook each week we talk to someone in show business and try to help them with their careers and see what they have to offer us everyone has a good time and no one gets mad at their publicist for letting them do our show we've had a lot of great guests like sarah sherman adam scott danny mcbride ben stiller and a lot of other big shots that wouldn't be where they are without us listen to hollywood handbook on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions. Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.