Life Will Be the Death of Me with Chelsea Handler - Live Every Day Like It’s Your First with Suleika Jaouad

Episode Date: April 23, 2026

Author Suleika Jaouad (Between Two Kingdoms) joins Chelsea to talk about facing her mortality head-on, her marriage to Jon Batiste, and adopting too many chihuahuas. Then: A caregiver spouse needs boundaries around her sex life.  * Pick up your copy of the Book of Alchemy and the Alchemy Journal  * Need some advice from Chelsea? Email us at [e-mail] * Executive Producer Catherine Law Edited & Engineered by Brad Dickert * * * The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the Podcast author, or individuals participating in the Podcast, and do not represent the opinions of iHeartMedia or its employees.  This Podcast should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, mental health counseling or therapy, or as imparting any health care recommendations at all.  Individuals are advised to seek independent medical, counseling advice and/or therapy from a competent health care professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issues, health inquiry or matter, including matters discussed on this Podcast. Guests and listeners should not rely on matters discussed in the Podcast and shall not act or shall refrain from acting based on information contained in the Podcast without first seeking independent medical advice.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Bell. Connection is everything. I survived nine months in captivity, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files. Every week, I'm with survivors who lived through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions. Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Did you hear the new episode of the Hey Jonas podcast? We are at D23, so we'll see who stops by.

The cast of Frozen stopped by. Kristen Bell, Josh Gad, and Idina Menzel. I auditioned for Frozen. What? For Kristoff. They said, okay, what are you going to be singing today? I said, I don't know. That must have been why you didn't get it.

Oh, you probably won. Plus, John Stamos, Hayden Christensen from Star Wars, and more. And I guess I can share that, uh, no way. Listen to the latest episode of Hey Jonas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, for the High and Mighty Tour people, we are rocking and rolling. These are the shows we have coming up. April 23rd is Kansas City, Missouri.

April 24th is St. Louis, Missouri. April 25th is Minneapolis. April 30th, Nashville. May 1st, Charlotte, North Carolina. May 2nd is Durham, North Carolina. May 6th in Los Angeles at the Saban Theater for Netflix is a Joke. May 15th, I will be in Saratoga. May 16th, Monterey. May 17th, Modesto. I will be in Port Chester on June 4th. And we added two new dates to the High and Mighty Tour on June 3rd. I am coming to Saratoga Springs, New York. So a pre-sale has begun for that. And then on June 28th, I am coming to Nantucket and pre-sale has started on that. June 5th, I will be in Boston, Massachusetts. June 12th, I will be in Portland, Oregon. And June 13th, I will be in Seattle,

Washington. June 27th is going to be Hyannis, Massachusetts. August 6th is Red Bank, New Jersey. August 7th, I'm coming home to Montclair, New Jersey. August 15th is Calgary, Alberta, Canada. September 18th, Santa Barbara. September 19th, San Diego. September 25th, I will be at the Beacon in New York City. September 26th, I will be in Philadelphia. September 27th, New Haven, Connecticut.

October 2nd, Atlanta, Georgia. October 3rd, Baltimore, Maryland. October 4th, Saginaw, Michigan. October 9th, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. October 10th, Toronto, Canada. October 16th, I'm coming to Boise, Idaho. October 17th, Spokane, Washington. November 7th, I will be in San Francisco. And November 13th, Salt Lake City. November 20th, Austin. November 21st, Houston, Texas. November 22nd, Irving, Texas. December 5th, I am adding a second show in Denver for those of you who couldn't get tickets to the first one.

and on December 6th, I will be coming to Vancouver, Canada. Okay, those are all my dates for the High and Mighty tour. Go to chelseahandler.com for tickets. Hello, Catherine. Hi, Chelsea. How's the tour going? Tour is going. It's a lot with Yamanika.

It's a full-time job having her on tour with me. It's kind of a nanny job situation. It's basically I've turned into a nanny. She slept in my room again. I opened that door accidentally one weekend when she had overbooked or double booked herself And now she, once a weekend, wants to sleep together, which, you know, is once too many times for me.

So I don't know. We're going to have to really reconfigure. This weekend, I have Kansas City, which I'm so excited about. I haven't been back to Kansas City in a while. I'm going to Kansas City Thursday night. And then I have Minneapolis and I have St. Louis. So I have lots of good stuff. Oh, nice.

Actually, I think our mini-sewed callers for this week are going to be seeing you in Minneapolis. So you'll have friends. Oh, good. Yeah, I can't wait to go to Minneapolis and give them some love, too. They need it. Yeah. That'll be coming out tomorrow. So everybody listen into that mini-sode. It's very cute and funny. Oh, yes, yes, yes. About the couples counseling. Yes. Some couples counseling. Chelsea, I have a question for you that's related to

the guest for this week. So I've been trying to do the Gratitude Journal, and it feels a little stiff to me to just be like, I am grateful for this. I am grateful for this. Like, how are you writing it? Is that what you're doing? Like, listing things? Are you getting more creative with it it's funny i'm reading another book called like mind uh mind mind your body this new book which is also talks about journaling and like the big which which we talk about in this episode with our guest is like you want to write it freestyle knowing like i think anything that prevents us from this isn't to your point exactly but like you want to write it assuming no one's ever going to fucking read it you know like bad bruno was over this morning

and he's like I'm writing it as like you know to vent he goes so I delete it every day too because I'm like I don't want anyone to ever see this but that's how I'm able to be my most honest self and I think that is like I do think that stops everyone from being fully honest because you're like you want to be grateful just for the things that you're supposed to be grateful for in case anybody ever reads your gratitude list like that's how I think about it so I do think it's a little stiff but I mean I do it just more of an exercise and I do write or I sometimes do it in Spanish and I write soy agradecido or, you know, or estoy agradecido. Practicamos. Yeah. Like just to do it. I don't know, but it is kind of perfunctory. You're just doing, I don't say the same things

every day, but I do just go through. Mine is like, how are you going to make today special and name three words to describe yourself and what are you grateful for? So it's like three different things, but yeah, I guess it can be, I mean, I think if you're really getting into journaling you really do have to get a journal and just like let it rip and then put it in a fucking safe yeah yeah see i have like my journal journal that i've been trying to get back into and i have like my little gratitude journal which is my little like daily my daily driver yeah it's really hard for me to write long form in handwriting like i've lost that like i'm on i'm on a computer you know what i mean like that's where so it's yeah i don't know i've got to get into it

though, because everything I'm reading about it, it's everywhere I go. So that's a sign. Is that, did they talk about that in your mind-body book that you're reading right now too? Mind Your Body, yeah. It's a lot about meditation and journaling. So like, so that you just to like connect with yourself, you know, to connect our conscious to our unconscious. Yeah. Okay. Ooh, and I love our guest today. She's perfect for this conversation. Oh, well, she's very exciting. She wrote the book Between Two Kingdoms and her new book is called The Book of Alchemy. So please welcome Suleika Jawad. Well, I am so thrilled to be sitting down and talking with you because, first of all, Catherine's here. This is my producer.

She's in LA. Hi, Catherine. Hi, Catherine. How's it going? Catherine's here. She's going to chime in whenever, just so you're aware. Amazing. Periodically. Periodically with her own questions. I first became familiar with you with your last book, Between Two Kingdoms, which was so beautiful. A friend of mine handed it to me and was like, you have to read this book. you're going to love it. And I was blown away by your story. And so I, and you're just, uh, your attitude, the way that you dealt with everything in such a graceful way, at least in the book, that's how it came across. And I'm sure you had your moments that maybe weren't so graceful, but then I started following you on Instagram and I didn't realize you were married

to John Batiste. And so then I started watching your relationship from afar. And I was like, these two are such a magical couple and not an Instagram magical couple. Yeah. A magical couple. Yeah. And there's magic there. And so I've just been so blown away by your perseverance, your fortitude, all of it. I just find it so inspiring and such a wonderful story to be sharing with people. You know, anyone going through something like this, which I don't know anybody else who's gone through something like this, but I know there are people out there that have. So let's just start with I know you have a new book out. We're going to talk about that. I've read it. But I want to start talking about Between Two Kingdoms and when you found

you were able to start to write about your experience. So I'm someone who was never interested in writing in the first person. When I graduated from college, I wanted to be a war correspondent. I have whatever that missing gene is when it comes to fear like if there's a building on fire my instinct is to run toward it it's like an amygdala that you're yeah yeah that's your fear part right yeah like I'm most comfortable in crisis like if you're going through shit I'm the person to call like I get calm when there's chaos okay everyday normal life a little harder for me to manage. I could have been like an ER doctor in a different life. But when I got sick myself, you know, I was 22 years old.

Diagnosed with leukemia. Diagnosed with leukemia. And about to begin your life. Right. Exactly. It's like, what do they say in college graduation speeches? Like, you're going to be entering the real world. And that was the goal. The goal was independence. The goal was to find my way. The goal was to do what all my other friends were doing, which was launching their careers and traveling and all the other, you know, big and small milestones of early adulthood. And I, for as long as I can remember, have had this sort of ambition monster in me. And I had my one-year plan and my five-year plan and my 10-year plan, et cetera, et cetera.

And suddenly I found myself for the first time ever stuck in bed without the possibility of doing anything. And that was really hard for me. And it was really important for me because when you're a person who can easily, as I do, conflate productivity and momentum with a feeling of self-worth and meaning, to be stripped away from the ability of doing anything is really hard and for me was really necessary. And so in a weird kind of perverse way, it felt liberating to not have expectations of myself, to not have external expectations and to not be able to do anything. So if you can recall, like, what was the period of time between your diagnosis and the acceptance of what you're talking about? Like, because initially you would think, OK, let's how are you going to fix this? Like, I'm going to do the chemo. I'm going to do all the treatment and I'm going to be, you know, you have your plan for that. Right. Which also obviously doesn't go your way all the time.

But I know you had a lot of support from your parents. You talk about that in the book. Your parents sound amazing. Yeah. What was the period of time between finding out about that and then accepting, OK, I'm not going to be doing any of the things that I had planned on doing in the moment that I wanted to do that? OK, so I remember so clearly the day I was admitted to the hospital right after my diagnosis. I was going to be in the hospital for six weeks and I packed a giant suitcase filled with books. And I told my professor father, I'm going to use this time to read through the rest of the Western canon. And I had worn Peace on my bedside table, and it's kind of absurd to me now because, of course, I didn't read any of those books. Instead, what I attempted to do was to set the world record for the number of Grey's Anatomy episodes watched consecutively.

And I think it was this real reckoning with these new limitations. and at first I bucked against those limitations I tried to muscle through them and at some point after weeks and weeks of trying and failing and feeling even worse for failing than I already did I realized I had to surrender to these new limitations it was it is like in a spiritual sense like were you feeling that in a spiritual sense or in a pragmatic sense both honestly Like I had such limited energy that I could maybe do three things, two or three hours worth of, you know, spending time with family or whatever it was that I was doing. And what that forced me to do was to figure out what was possible within those limitations and to get really clear a reframe of what had been the central question, which is, you know, what does success look like, and a shift to a question of what does success feel like for me today. And the answers to those two questions were really different.

It wasn't reading War and Peace. It was spending time with my family. It was laughing. It was watching something silly. It was not trying to do something big and ambitious, but something much quieter and just kind of following my curiosity without having a goal in mind. And I think that's applicable to so many people in so many different circumstances, not just if you are very sick in the hospital or going through a treatment in the hospital. I think it's really important for all of us to sometimes be like, OK, today's not the day for me to be successful. Today's not the day for me to accomplish all of these ideas of what I believe accomplishment is.

Sometimes you do need to lie in bed and watch Grey's Anatomy, whether you are sick or not. Totally. And sometimes that's what success is for that day. Right, right, right. And so that led me on this journey of not having goals, which counterintuitively was an important course correction. Because what I ended up doing was not trying to be a work correspondent because I couldn't be a work correspondent. It was becoming friends with, like, my hilarious hospital neighbor, Dennis, who was mounting a strike against the cafeteria because our meal trays kept coming up with the food still frozen. It was, you know, getting to know my nurses and residents.

If you've ever been sick, then you know that the nurses are the ones who run the show. and, you know, just writing in my journal just for myself. I remember, like, one of the first little anecdotes I wrote was about Grey's Anatomy because a resident came to my room and I said, does your life have any resemblance to the cast of Grey's? And she was like, we have just as much sex, but everyone is significantly less attractive. And I wrote that down in my journal and it made me laugh.

And suddenly the hospital was not this grim, depressing place that I was forced to be in. It was a place where a lot of life was happening and a lot of story was unfolding. And I realized in keeping this journal that I was using it as a kind of reporter's pad and that while I wasn't going to be a war correspondent in the way that I'd hoped, I could report from the front lines of my hospital bed from a very different kind of conflict zone. And so that's how I started writing about that experience. And I love that because it's so emblematic of life. Like everywhere you look, there's life happening. Totally. And sometimes we are so wrapped up in our own lives that we don't look around.

You know, we're so consumed. I know that I felt that way the last couple of weeks. I'm just like, oh, my God, what's wrong? Like I can't even, you know, I've been so busy that I haven't been able to stop and look around and like look at people, take them in, you know, make eye contact, make sure you're smiling and saying thank you and please and all of the basic things. But beyond that, there's so much more to look at whenever you are in an environment that you're unfamiliar with. There's so much life happening. And while it's important to have goals, sometimes the goals can distract you from the unexpected things that are unfolding. In the meantime, from the more interesting story or the more interesting goal that may not be part of the plan,

that may not make sense, but ends up actually being the thing that opens up a whole new world. And that was it for me. I'm still a really private person. But in writing in the first person, I realized, you know, as uncomfortable and exposing as it felt, there was so much grist there. There was so much I wanted to talk about, not specifically about illness, but about things like early menopause, which I went through when I was 24 years old as a result of chemo, about the impact on relationships, about how you keep yourself sane when you're navigating an insane healthcare system. There was just so much there. And it was that important lesson of you don't have to reinvent the wheel. You don't have to travel far to find an interesting

story, there's always something interesting unfolding right in front of you. Right. And even though your story is very interesting, I mean, you being in and out of the hospital as many times you were, so many close calls. I mean, it was, that book was just astounding. I couldn't believe when I was reading your first book, I was just like, I can't believe this woman is alive to tell the story. So I can't imagine the gratitude and like the depth in which you came out of that, you know, with the depth that you came out of it with to become such a person that has survived something like that. And also for your parents.

I mean, watching your parents care for you, watching how difficult it must have been for them to watch you go through all of that, that really had a huge impact to think about. To think about what it must be like to be parents and have your child be in that situation was really heartbreaking. Yeah. And, you know, there's that old Hemingway song of the world breaks you and you are stronger in the broken places. Like, I don't think that sense of gratitude just naturally happens. I don't believe that people necessarily go through something

difficult and emerge better and braver and stronger and wiser for what they've been through. Viktor Frankl, there's a quote attributed to him that says, there's a space between stimulus and response. And in that space is how you choose to respond. And in that response is your freedom and growth. So lots of people go through illness. Lots of people go through hard things. It doesn't just automatically turn you into a better person. Into a better person. As my friend Max said, who is a friend of mine who I met in treatment, who was also in treatment, he said, you know, just because you have cancer doesn't mean you

can't also be an asshole. But I think those moments when you get brought to your knees open up an invitation for reckoning about what is working and what is not and what your priorities are and what it means to actually live a good and meaningful life. Because I think for so many of us, we move through time as though time is infinite. Especially at 22, I was like, I have time to figure out who I am, time to figure out what I want to do. And I think the biggest shift for me was that relationship to time. We're not here for that long. It goes by like this. And while I may live a little closer to that truth, it's the case for all of us. And you have to ask yourself those questions. Otherwise, it's too easy to be swept up

in the busyness of life and to kind of tumble into your to-dos and into everyday headfirst without actually taking a moment to get still and to ask yourself what it is you really want. I mean, you have this great framing in your memoir, and I think it was a Viktor Frankl quote too. It's just so funny that you just said that Viktor Frankl quote, because yesterday I was in an interview and somebody read that quote to me. No way. And I was being interviewed and they read that exact quote that you just said. And I was like, God, Viktor Frankl must be in the room with us. He's like following us around. And with pleasure, I invite him to stay. I need a little bit more Viktor Frankl in my life. Totally. Such a beautiful, he has so many beautiful quotes. And

yes, everything you're saying is so beautiful and you're so eloquent. Like, I just love your voice. I wish you would just do voiceover for all these books, audio books, because I could listen to your voice for a long time. for two years on internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit visit bell.ca for details and to check availability bell connection is everything when i was 14 years old i was kidnapped and held captive for nine months i survived and i've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them i'm elizabeth smart and these are the survivor files I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.

I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club part group chat for thought daughters pop culture obsessives and anyone who thinks pride

and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse i'm eli rallo and every week we're connecting the dots between books the internet and the conversations everyone can't stop having i'm gonna have to look up this story i'm obsessed i'm obsessed from best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments nothing is off the table it's Like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages.

On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I chose option B. I'm Julie Pinheiro and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word solita, trading the pity for possibility. Every time I tried to be alone, I kept meeting people and they were like, you smiled at us. Not a lot of people smile around here. It's when you're alone that you're most receptive to the world as it is

and not the lies you're sold about it. It can be a time where you push your limits, change your mind, or wake up to a new version of yourself. So whether you're a solo travel veteran or you're too nervous to book your first trip, I hope you listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I want to ask you, you talk in your book, your first book, and then the book of Alchemy, and you also have the Alchemy Journal that also was released recently. You talk in your book about

this period of time in your life. That's when you started to really journal. You committed to saying, like, I'm going to write no matter how I feel in the hospital every day, I'm going to start writing. and that's how you began and that's where this book came from right the between two kingdoms exactly and so i think when you make a commitment like that when i started reading your book i'm like i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this hundred day commitment because the book of alchemy is about committing to journaling for a hundred days and then it's it's it's a series you talk a lot about why you know in the beginning of the book about why you started journaling how you started journaling what it's given to you and then you there's a lots of prompts from lots of famous

authors about why they journal and what their prompts are, which are beautiful because it really gives you an avenue to really pick your own lane. Yeah. And figure out how to give back to yourself in a meaningful way. I think when you talk about something like journaling and I love what you said because this has been my never ending question. Can you write it or I mean, do you can you type it into your phone or do you have to write it? And you talk about how important it is to you personally to write it to feel the pen in your hand and to and there's even a suggestion there to write with your non-dominant hand which I thought was like oh wow what an interesting way because then you're really out of your head yeah you know you're really trying to like write with

the hand that's non-dominant and like that's an interesting way to get out but you could also paint you could out there's so many beautiful suggestions in this book so talk to me a little bit about the impact that you felt from actually, and I know you've taught this in your classes, the impact that you felt personally after completing like 100 days of doing that. So I am someone who is really bad at being consistent. I feel like you're different. You're probably someone who wakes up and works out every day. I have never been that person. I am the person who like starts not just strong, but like in an extreme way for about two to three weeks, then I drop off, then I never do it again. And that was true of journaling before this

period. Like I was the person who would like buy a beautiful journal with the intention of filling it out right in the first couple of pages, stop, then buy a new journal because that journal was ruined and proof of my failure and start all over again. And so I really liked the 100-day project, which came at the suggestion of a friend when I was in that first summer of just being in such a low-down place. Is it Michael Beirut, right? Michael Beirut, yeah. Okay. And I liked it. I was hesitant about it because I didn't think I could actually get through the 100 days, and I didn't need further proof of failure. So I knew I had to keep the bar really low

and I decided I was going to write every day, but it didn't matter what it was. It could be five pages. It could be one word. It could be a doodle. It could be a mark in the margins, but that I was going to do it every day. And I needed that accountability

of doing it with friends and family. But what was interesting in the course of doing it every single day was that, of course, there were days where I felt like I had nothing to say. But often it was especially on those days where if I pushed through that resistance, I realized it was when I needed it most. And so at the end of that 100-day project, I had a body of work. And it's kind of amazing when you do one tiny thing every day the way in which it can accrue.

And I not only felt the satisfaction of having completed it, but what it showed me was that within these very constrained circumstances that I found myself in, there was actually a lot I could be doing right there from my bed. I got really inspired by the long lineage of artists and writers and musicians who found themselves bedridden for one reason or another. Frida Kahlo is a famous one who, when she got into an accident and found herself bedridden, started painting these self-portraits that ended up making her one of the most famous artists of all time. But what it also made me realize was that I had always loved to write. I knew this.

I didn't quite know that it could be a career, but I think in that fallow period where I was just doing something for myself. For the first time, I was following the thread of my curiosity and my intuition without any expectation of it going somewhere or becoming something. And that ended up leading me to the thing that I not only wanted to do, but could do. And so the source material of that journal became my first ever writing gig, my first time being published, which was this New York Times column and video series called Life Interrupted. And that's a lesson I've learned again and again as someone who likes to be busy, who likes to constantly fill my days to the brim, that I need to schedule unstructured time to do things for myself just because I'm interested in them, but to do them with consistency or to do nothing at all. And that often the best ideas happen when you get quiet enough to notice what you're thinking or feeling or what's happening around you. And your parents did this with you.

My parents did this with me. My mom painted a tile every day. She's a visual artist, and she assembled it into a shield and hung it above my bed and told me it had protective powers. And my dad, who grew up in the south of Tunisia, who rarely talks about his childhood, decided to write 101 and a nod to 1001 Arabian Nights childhood memories. And he ended up compiling them into a little stapled booklet for my brother and me. And so it was like this really beautiful project, and I've done many of them since. But especially I think in periods where I feel profoundly stuck and my impulse is to just like force myself through it and muscle through, what it's taught me is that there's like a lot of interesting stuff to learn in the stuck place. And it's not actually the moment to force yourself forward, but to maybe sit in the uncertainty and to excavate whatever is coming up. Yeah, and to lean into that discomfort in a sense, right?

To lean into the resistance of the moment. You know, I think we live in a world now where we want instant results from things also. So we think, oh, we're going to meditate for three days, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, it's over. It's like, well, that's not really how it works. You know, it's a cumulative effect. And I think what you're talking about also is accumulative. Yeah. I think journaling, just like anything else, it's like going to the gym.

You can't just go five times and reap the rewards. It's a muscle you have to build. And you have to push yourself through the period of resistance, through the period of exhaustion, and then you start to reap its rewards. It's so beautiful. It really is. It's so inspiring. I just want to, like, I mean, your parents must be so grateful to have this experience with you.

You know, like, what a beautiful experience to share with both of your parents. What a beautiful project to share, even though the circumstances weren't beautiful. It is beautiful. You made something that could have been ugly and hard to think about into a beautiful experience. Yeah. And I think it's, you know, it's why I'm obsessed with alchemy, this idea of transforming something base or worthless like lead into something precious like gold. And I think especially in a moment of upheaval, there's an invitation to do that. But for us as a family, it was really transformative. I grew up in a pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps, half-tough-skin household. Both my parents are immigrants. Your dad's Tunisian and your mom's Swiss, right? Exactly. And when we first went through this, you know, the impulse was to be stoic, was to put on a brave face for each other, was to wait until we were alone to cry individually. And I'm no longer a proponent of tough skin.

What I realized through that experience, not just myself, but as a family, was that we wanted to have tender skin. We wanted to feel the things that were happening to us, the heartbreak, the joy, the funny moments, because there's a lot of things, it might sound strange to say, that are funny about having cancer that emerge. I believe that. Yeah. Yeah.

And more than feeling them, we wanted to be able to share them together, to not just put on our brave faces and to privately deal with our fears and our grief, but to talk about it because it was such a missed opportunity, not just for supporting each other, but for a depth of intimacy that I think when we're all trying to be tough, when we're all trying to be brave, gets lost. Yeah. I mean, it's fascinating to think of. It's almost kind of like, you know, you want all the families that are unable to communicate

healthfully, which is basically every family. Totally. Whatever our dynamics are, they're off. You know, like if you have a great, fun family, that's great. But there's something off. I was thinking about this family that I admire so much. Like they have so many siblings and it's just joyful every time you go over there. And then I once went on vacation with them and I realized how fucked up their family was.

Like everyone was fighting. It was crazy chaos. And I was like, oh, God, this is everything. You know, you always look and you're like. But to go through an experience like where someone's, you know, life is on the line with as a family. And to actually level up to that experience is what you're describing, and it yields such beauty and such a great result. And then to top it off, I know you were in a relationship when that happened, when you were, you know, very sick, and that went on for, like, was it four years? Four years, yeah.

And then your relationship ended, and then you met John, who you already knew from band camp. Is that right? When we were teenagers, yeah. Right. And so you guys, how did you guys reconnect again? We reconnected not long after I got out of treatment and that big heartbreak. And I was in a place, and frankly, for as long as I can remember, I always thought to myself, like, I'm not someone who's built for long-term relationships. And I thought to myself, I will either have no husband or I will have 10 husbands.

That's exactly how I feel. And so when I met John, I was like, not only is this bad timing, I'm not ready for this. I'm still sobbing every single day over this breakup that I've gone through. I'm a wreck physically. But I also love John because he was my friend, someone I'd known for a long time. And I certainly didn't want to put him through my chaos. And then there were other things, too. You know, I was infertile.

I was going through menopause. how, when do you bring that up when you're dating someone new? At what point? All of it just sounded like a bad idea to me. And John is someone who, for as long as I've known him, has been unlike anyone. But he was so good about it. He'd come into my apartment, and I'd be crying over my ex, and he would say, of course you're crying over your ex. Not only were you together for as long as you were, but you lived through something so intense and so hard. It would be weird if you weren't crying for your ex. And it takes a particular kind of man to say that, to not feel threatened by it, to give you the space to grieve and to move forward. But even so,

you know, we were together 10, 11 years before we got married. And I think John and this relationship, this marriage that we now have has surprised me in every way. Yeah. I mean, you must think of that as alchemy. It is alchemy. Certainly my own personal alchemy when it comes to my understanding of myself and relationships. But I think any relationship requires acts of alchemy. Yeah. And to have I mean, he's such a huge he's got magic all around him. You know, you just see him do his thing on stage or even when he's talking like everything he does has just this kind of energy that is very unique. And it's it's easy to see that, you know, about him. And I can see that about you as well. So for those kind of – and they're not the same kind of energy. So for those two energies to come together is alchemy.

And, yes, it's true for all couples. But there's a certain magic surrounding you. I mean I don't want to put that on you, but I think you must feel that way too to have met someone like that at the time in your life and to have it be so – have someone that is such an understanding person, that is so gracious. And is, you know, not a lot of people would be understanding of watching another person cry about their relationship that ended when you're entering into a new one. Not a lot of people know how to give that space or are secure enough to be able to give that space. Certainly not a lot of men. And I remember, you know, like maybe three weeks into dating, I brought up the infertility piece. And he said to me, there are many ways to make a family.

let me back up and just say, for someone who is terrified of marriage and had very mixed feelings about it, the first week we started dating, he said to me, what are your intentions? Because just so you know, I'm not interested in dating unless there's a possibility of it leading to marriage, which was actually so endearing to hear, you know, a man in his 20s say, and also a little scary. But about two or three weeks in, when I brought up the infertility piece, he said to me, there are many ways to have a family. And he said, if we end up together, maybe that'll look like having kids. Maybe it'll look like fostering or adopting, or maybe it won't. And maybe we'll just be like the world's best aunties and uncles or godparents to our friends' kids. So he got it.

And that's not to say, you know, it was all magic the whole way through, but I think he's someone who puts in the work, who understands that people have their ups and downs, that we evolve and grow, and who is there for every step of it and there to put in the work to make it work. behind every night spent making the kids lunches there's a lot of suspense will they finally eat the veggies will the pesto survive the first bite will the lunchbox come home empty half full or come home at all and will you finish episode eight before you're done slicing the cucumbers get bell pure fiber internet with crave netflix and disney plus from 94 a month price guaranteed for two years on internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit visit bell.ca for details and to check availability. Bell. Connection is everything.

When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months. I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files. I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. every week i'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable i knew if he woke up without a doubt

he was going to hurt me i started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed and i just started screaming they are abducted stalked controlled and nearly silenced but these aren't stories about what's taken from them they're stories about what it takes to make it out alive Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.

I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.

Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages. On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I chose option B.

I'm Julie Pinheiro, and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word solita, trading the pity for possibility. Every time I tried to be alone, I kept meeting people and they were like, you smiled at us. Not a lot of people smile around here.

It's when you're alone that you're most receptive to the world as it is and not the lies you're sold about it. It can be a time where you push your limits, change your mind, or wake up to a new version of yourself. So whether you're a solo travel veteran or you're too nervous to book your first trip, I hope you listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Why were you so scared of marriage? Because your parents seem like they have a strong union.

Like, where does it come from, do you think? Wow. I mean, this is probably a much bigger conversation that can be contained in this time that we're spending together. You know, I think prior to getting sick was a bit of a hell raiser. My dad used to always say, I pity any man who falls in love with Sue Laker. And I think I just thought I was someone who there were a lot of things I wanted to do. I was someone who went through a lot of phases. And for whatever reason, maybe based on early dating experiences, what I took to be a fact was that the longer you are in a relationship with someone, the harder things get. The more distance that grows, the more incompatibilities that reveal themselves.

And I didn't see myself wanting to or being able to sustain that over the course of an entire life. You know, I grew up with a mom who was very much a feminist, who never wanted to get married, who was very focused on her career, who ended up, you know, I was a surprise. and who ended up much to her surprise loving being a mother but my whole life would say things to me like focus on your career only have a kid if and when you've established your career and have enough momentum to sustain that be financially independent never be dependent on a man like I think there were a lot of important things that she was passing on to me, but that for whatever reason, especially as someone who had a lot of ambitions and a lot of big dreams, felt like the math of it didn't work. How to do that and then also how to be a wife or maybe a mother. I also

happened to graduate the year that Anne-Marie Slaughter wrote that essay about can women have it all? And her conclusion at the end of it was no. You know, women of our generation were told you can go to college, you can have the big career, and you can have the family. But the question of how to make that all work and the math of it was never clearly explained to most of us. Yeah, right. And I do think it's possible, but it's like a future idea. You know, when we figure out our roles, our gender roles in a more equal way, then that will be possible. But I don't think it's impossible. I just think it's not as easily attainable as it will be in the future. Why do you think you thought you were someone who would either have no husbands or 10? For similar reasons to what you're describing. I was a hellraiser.

Yeah. And I am kind of still. Like, you seem like, that's my next question for you. And I don't, and I want to answer your question. But like, do you still feel like a hellraiser? Definitely. Yes. Okay.

And in an intentionally directed way. Yes. I'm no longer a chaos hellraiser in every area of my life. Yes, exactly. So I feel that way too. Like there has been an evolution and while I haven't been through anything like what you've been through, I've had my own kind of growth edges, you know, things that make you go, oh, like I want to take all these great attributes and refine them instead of having them be, I don't want to be in attack mode. I want to be in, you know, I want to be a strong woman and I want to stand up for things and make sure that people know I'm reliable, dependable, consistent, you know, like those attributes are meaningful to me. But with regard to a husband, I just always felt like that was an antiquated idea, maybe like it's too old fashioned, like there's got to be a new iteration of marriage or or.

and I also had this fantasy in my life of just having lots of lovers. Like I just always and I still do. I'm always like, I just want lovers. You know, I just want to be this kind of bon vivant that just goes around the world, you know, and now I'm seeing someone so I'm in a monogamous relationship as we speak. But I still have these ideas. And I still have these kind of thoughts. And I'm always willing to examine them further. And actually, okay, maybe maybe this relationship changes you, or maybe this circumstance changes you. I'm not locked and loaded like I thought I was when I was younger. And I think that's something that you attain as you become older. You start to realize that everything is malleable and nothing is fixed.

I think that was my big unlock as well. Much like any creative process, I think a relationship is something you co-create. It doesn't have to look like the thing that your parents had or what people tell you a relationship should look like. I'm someone who loves to spend time alone. I love to spend time with my friends. And we've built a kind of life that accommodates that. You know, when John goes on tour, people will often say to me, is that hard for you?

And I'm like, no, I love it. I love to miss him. You know, I love when he's home, but I also love having my own time. I get to have my girlfriends come and stay with me for two weeks, which I do also when he's there. I get to just be with myself and my dogs and go deep into a project and vice versa. When I'm on the road, he's happy too. And there's something really beautiful about realizing you get to be the architect of your relationship, even if it looks like nothing like anyone else's relationship, and you figure out the thing that works for you.

And congratulations on your new chihuahuas. Oh, my gosh. I saw yesterday that you posted on Instagram, how many chihuahuas did you end up getting? Two or three? It looked like there were about eight chihuahuas in that picture, or one of the pictures. And I was like, I hope they didn't get all those dogs.

So the love of my life was a little terrier rescue I got at 22, who died four years ago. And after that, I was like, I can't go through this again. I don't think I can ever have a dog again. And fast forward, we've gotten one dog every single year since. When you go to L.A. Well, the first two were not in L.A. So two years ago, we went to the Oscars.

Our documentary, American Symphony, was nominated. And you won a Grammy for that also. We did. Normal people, when they're traveling somewhere, look up, like, cool bars to go to, great restaurants. I always go on Pet Finder. on the flight over, I see this senior, toothless, hairless dog that's seven pounds named Lentil. And without consulting John, without consulting anyone, I filled out the application on a whim. And when I landed, the application had been accepted. And I was too scared to tell John

what I'd done. So I woke up the next morning, Ubered to go pick up this dog, brought it back to the hotel and John woke up and he was like, first of all, what is this? Is this a dog? Is it a bat? Is it a meerkat? And also, why is it here? And I was like, it's fine. We're just fostering. And he was like, during Oscars weekend when we have so much to do? And I was like, yes, it's all good. And a few hours later, a TSA approved dog carrier arrived at our door and he was like, and what is this? And I was like, just in case. Anyway, I've decided this is my tradition and that it's happened once. And so when we were back in the Oscars, at the Oscars, I was joking about how maybe I should get, you know, another dog. And the joke was on me because

we ended up coming home with two senior toothless Chihuahuas. So we currently have five dogs in our house. Where did the other two come from? Oh, this has happened every year. Yeah. Oh, so five. Okay. So you have, okay. Yeah. The math is getting complicated. So, okay. Here's a question. When you're going to all these events, are you bringing the Chihuahua with you, the rescue or the, as a foster when you're fostering or you leave it in the hotel room? I leave it in the hotel room. I get a dog sitter. Oh, you do? I briefly considered skipping all of the Oscar events because the dogs were arriving that day. And I was very excited to meet them. I think I'm veering dangerously close to crazy dog lady territory. But to me, like, I don't know.

There's a lot of joy in coming home to a group of dogs. There really is. I have fantasized about this. I have fantasies of my own about this. My type is a chow chow. Your type is a chihuahua. I want to have five chow chows coming at me when I come home. But it's really, I'm just never home. So that would just, it's not ideal, but I'm going to make that happen at some point in my life because I want a farm. That's what I want. I just want them all playing with each other all day, being friends, hanging out, you know, a big backyard, which I have. So, I mean, I guess I could do it, but I mean, it is, I love, I like that kind of lack of

control. And I've got to say on the record, my type is not a Chihuahua. I was never a small dog person. We have a lab. We have a medium-sized dog. And then what I will say my most recent type is, is a baby grandma. I thought the chihuahuas you raised today. Am I misspeaking? No. The most recent are two chihuahuas. Oh, okay. Two out of five. Two out of five are chihuahuas. So two-fifths. Yeah, yeah. Two-fifths. Okay. Oh, so you do have a lab. We have a lab. And what are the other two? The other one's a medium-sized mutt. The third is a hairless Mexican dog. The first one, the OG. Yeah, the OG Oscar rescue. So who walks all these dogs?

Do you walk all the dogs? I walk the dogs, but I also feel like we're nearing a point where we may need to hire a dog nanny. A third party, right. Yeah. That's inspiring. I like that. I like that that's how you spend your Oscar weekend. I do.

It's like, you know, those weekends for me are kind of stressful. I'm like an introverted extrovert. I like a small group hang. But after a couple of hours of small talk, I start to go blank behind the eyes. I get anxious. And those things are anxiety-inducing, but they're also not. It's like it feels high stakes, but it's not like we're doing pediatric brain surgery. No one's life is on the line.

It's like your shoes don't fit or whatever. And so I like when my brain is hijacked by something other than that, And preferably, yeah, a senior dog who needs some love. A senior dog rescue. Okay. On that note, we're going to be right back with Suleika Jawad. There we go. Phonetically, got it?

Yeah. Okay, great. Did I get it? You got it. Okay, great. Behind every night spent making the kids' lunches, there's a lot of suspense. Will they finally eat the veggies? Will the pesto survive the first bite?

Will the lunchbox come home empty, half full, or come home at all? And will you finish Episode 8 before you're done slicing the cucumbers? Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Crave, Netflix, and Disney Plus from $94 a month, price guaranteed for two years on Internet with a two-year term and auto-pay credit. Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability. Bell. Connection is everything. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.

I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files. I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed,

and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table it's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters

and that is a trojan horse whether you're looking for literary deep dives smart pop culture conversations or a community of readers who love to think a little too much you're in the right place listen to pro society on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages. On the new podcast Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I chose option B. I'm Julie Pinheiro and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word solita, trading the pity for possibility. Every time I tried to be alone,

I kept meeting people and they were like, you smiled at us. Not a lot of people smile around here. It's when you're alone that you're most receptive to the world as it is and not the lies you're sold about it. It can be a time where you push your limits, change your mind, or wake up to a new version of yourself. So whether you're a solo travel veteran or you're too nervous to book your first trip. I hope you listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back with Suleika Jawad. Jawad? Just tell me how to say it. Jawad. Jawad. Jawad, like a thawed, but not really. Suleika Jawad. Jawad. Yeah. I have problems with phonetics and names. That's okay. I have four vowels in my last name. Yeah, yeah,

Yeah, yeah. But it is a beautiful name if you get it right. Sean calls it a vowel salad. Okay, we have callers calling in for advice. Are you ready for this? Katherine, what do we have in store for Suleika today? Well, let's start with our caller today. This is Tara. She says, Dear Chelsea, my husband and I have been together for five years and married for one. This past year has been incredibly difficult. He underwent several surgeries, numerous medical appointments, and ER visits.

We also had to move in the middle of it all. I handled everything, planning the move, packing, coordinating movers, while also managing his medical care. As a medical social worker, I was the one scheduling appointments, contacting insurance companies, and making sure his care stayed on track. All of this while working full-time, maintaining the household, caring for our two dogs, and managing the financial responsibilities. This year took a significant toll on me mentally and physically.

It felt like I was in constant survival mode. His last surgery was in October of last year, and he returned to work in January. Now that life has returned to some sense of normalcy, a new challenge has surfaced in our relationship, our intimacy. While he was sick, our sex life was understandably limited. Now that he's feeling better, there's a lot of pressure from him to have sex frequently. He expresses that sex is more than physical for him. It's how he connects and feels valued.

And I understand that perspective. However, at 45, my sex drive is not the same. We're currently intimate two to three times a week, but this isn't enough for him. He also wants more variety, more experimentation, lingerie, use of toys. It feels like the expectations keep increasing and I struggle to keep up. At the same time, I feel overwhelmed at home. I handle the majority of the household responsibilities, cleaning, laundry, caring for the dogs, managing daily tasks.

He does cook, which I appreciate, but beyond that, I carry most of the load. It's difficult to feel emotionally or physically open when I feel exhausted and unsupported. I am trying. I've made efforts to initiate more intimacy and to wear things that make him feel desired, even when I don't particularly enjoy them. I'd really value your guidance on how we can approach this in a healthier way. Tara. Oh, hi, Tara.

Hello. We have a special guest today, Suleika Jawad, who actually has been through many similar things that you've mentioned. First of all, thank you for calling in. And wow, you've really been through a lot and you've held it together. and I can totally understand why you feel you're in a state of overwhelm. Definitely. Yes, it's been really hard.

Yeah. Do you have someone that you're talking to? Do you have a therapist? Yes, I talk to my therapist every two weeks and have a great support of friends and a spiritual practice. Great. So you're already firing on a lot of cylinders. So that's important.

I'm going to say a couple things and then obviously I want you to jump in too with any feedback you think might be helpful. I think, you know, this is a really difficult situation and not something that so many people can relate to. Not everybody experiences these things, but, you know, you're like, you're a rock star for being able to support him in this way during this time. So, you know, make sure you're telling yourself that every day.

And while that doesn't give you permission to like control the dynamic of the relationship, it does give you a sense of value and purpose independent from everything else in your life. So just like kudos to you for like staying the course and being like a rock for somebody because that's really important and everyone in his situation

or going through something similar needs that. With regard like to sex and stuff, and I mean, it does sound like you guys have to have a conversation with a third party to kind of, you know, balance everything out. It seems a little bit demanding from your side of things, a little demanding and a little bit,

you're not required to deliver on all of those fronts at all the times. You know, you have a lot on your shoulders. And so I feel like there is an avenue for him to gain a better understanding of everything that this has had on you. Like this kind of not, I don't want to say onus because it has a negative connotation, but all of these responsibilities have taken a toll on you in a way that he needs to have probably a little bit better understanding of.

So I guess my next question is, do you guys have a therapist that you speak to or does he have one that you speak to together or does he have one? no he doesn't have one and I've been looking into trying to find a male therapist for us as a couple because I feel like a lot of times if a male tells him like your expectations are way too high he might be able to be more open to it if it's another female therapist saying you're asking for too much yeah so that would be our next step but it's been hard like I feel the bar keeps on getting up it's not only we don't have enough sex now now we have enough time but then it's

the same positions or can we get a toy or can we do something else and so I feel like I constantly trying to keep up with what's next in order for him to be 100% happy with our sex life right and I also think that like he's probably feeling great for the first time in a long time And really, like, this is a way of expression and a way to make him feel better. And so that's totally understandable as well. But I think a good therapist will be able to. And you're right to get a male therapist, I think, because there's there's so many emotional things that go along with this, like, and not just the sexual component.

Right. Like, he has to have an understanding of everything you've been through. I just want to first acknowledge how much you've been carrying. Caregiver burnout is very real. And as someone who is in the patient's chair, so much of the focus often is on the patient, but you're living alongside it too. And I know both for me, but also for my caregivers, in a way, it was only once the crisis was past us that they were actually able to take inventory of what had happened, of the exhaustion, of the cumulative traumas. And so I couldn't agree more with Chelsea. I love couples therapy. We think of it as car maintenance in my marriage. And I think often it's sometimes people think, oh, couples therapy is something you do when you're on the verge of breaking up. But it's something I think that's good to start before things reach an inflection point. Right. The other thing I'll say is sometimes having these conversations is hard. And right now you're doing not just a lot of labor, but also a lot of invisible emotional labor. And it can be hard to talk about that in a way where it doesn't feel like you're saying, look at all the things that I do for you and someone responds with, but look at all the things that I do for you.

And so my husband, John, you know, years ago in the early years of our relationship, when we were navigating, you know, feeling like we were both overwhelmed, had this idea that instead of writing in a journal individually, which we both do, we would start writing each other letters. because sometimes the thing you say in conversation makes it difficult to actually get to the there there. You end up in a back and forth and everyone's interrupting each other or queuing up their next thought. And to my surprise, like I would write this letter to John

or do it in a voice note and I didn't even really know what I was feeling until I had the quiet to actually say it myself. And then we'd take a photo I text the letter to him and he would write one back but I think the communication piece here is so important and I'm curious if he has a sense of what how much you're carrying and how much of that you share with him I think he did have a sense because he was encouraged me to take time off and i think took time off finally i went away for a whole week and he was great so he did

have a sense but then when it comes to sex i think that he gets blinded yeah i do want to also point out that like three times a week is above average for a couple that's been together you're doing great i love your idea of getting a man involved to be like that's that's a lot like that's doing great and like yes but you know you might also engage him in like one of the sexiest things that you could do for me is to help take some of this off of my plate so I have the energy to feel sexy later in the day you know if you take the dogs for a walk and give them their dinners or whatever the you know whatever the daily tasks are like relate those two things together in a really concrete way for him so you can be like if you are able to take

these things off my plate, there's a better chance that I will feel sexy later or like have the space in my mind, body, and brain for that. Okay, great. But I also think it's important for men to understand that women, we like, we don't always love to be pursued. Sometimes we want to come to you. And you know, like that's something that you can say in a very gentle, loving way. Like it's not so sexy all the time when I feel pursued all the time by you sexually. Like I want an opportunity to come to you and say okay you know i'm in the mood or initiate sex like those are different ways of communicating things so that he because i i have a feeling he feels like this is his like he's feeling healthy and strong again and wants to like kind of show his manhood off

you know there could be an element of that which is why a male therapist will be great to deal with that but there's also gentle ways that you can communicate that and how you're feeling because, you know, as Salika said, like you are in triage during this time and you're just coming out of it. I mean, you're out of it, but like your body and your brain aren't always in the same moment together. So like there is trauma involved. Like you're, you were in survival mode for a long time and now you're just kind of like coming down. So there's a lot to deal with there. And so I'm so glad you're seeing a therapist and talking to someone about it because that stuff and getting yourself recalibrated

to these newer, healthier circumstances is also an adjustment. And if he's really into this, like exploring some kink stuff, maybe you need to do like a dom sub thing where like you're making him do stuff around the house. Catherine loves this shit. She loves it.

I love it. You put on some high heels, boss him around, make him do the housework, be very hot. Stop asking him for sex. Yeah, two birds with one stone. More help on the domestic front while playing into the kink. Exactly.

I like that idea. All right, Tara. Will you follow up with us after you guys see a therapist together? Yes, we'll do. Yeah, Tara, you're amazing. You're amazing. Everything you've done, rock solid.

You're a rock solid woman. Thank you so much. Bye. Bye. The Jonas Brothers are running it back. We live the burning up tour and celebrate the biggest Jonas Brothers hits that have defined a generation. One incredible celebration.

One unforgettable night. See the Jonas Brothers live at RBC Amphitheater, September 28th. Get tickets now at Ticketmaster.ca. Jonas Brothers, the burning up tour all over again. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months. I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files. I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying,

Shut up. Don't say anything. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.

Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages. Hey, this is Hayes Davenport. And Sean Clements. We host the podcast Hollywood Handbook on the Big Money Players Network. Our show is extremely accessible to first-time listeners. Each week, we talk to someone in show business, a.k.a. the biz, and try to help them with their careers and see what they have to offer us.

Everyone has a good time, and no one gets mad at their publicist for letting them do our show. We've had a lot of great guests like Sarah Sherman. Not that great. Actually, can you help me shape this? how about we flip it on its head how about we flip the script what if the surprise woman

who actually you think is the straight man is actually the one who's acting weird Adam Scott this entire time you've been expecting Adam Sandler to come to visit the show I would never expect

I would never set expectations for something like that to happen if the universe allows for something like that to happen i'm open to it i'm always going to accept you know danny mcbride fine yeah it's all this fragile masculinity exuding i could smell it walking down the hallway to be honest with you i was like is that weed nope it's fragile masculinity ben stiller no because a lot of times in out of context people don't get it or even know what a circle is you know what i mean like you're like oh what's this

So everyone's so dumb and fake, right? Fake and also not interested or just like, oh, I've got my life. I don't care about your life. And a lot of other big shots that wouldn't be where they are without us. Oh, and by the way, Will Ferrell told us personally he loves the show and he wants to be a guest on every episode, but he's just so busy. Listen to Hollywood Handbook on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. all right well we'll wrap up with a little quickie yeah let's close out with a little quickie so our wondering question today is dear chelsea i'm 35 and lately i've been trying to get back

into journaling but i'm having trouble writing without thinking i have to write as if someone is reading it i sit down to spill my heart onto the page and instead it comes out censored and dry just a list of what happened that day without any color how do i get past that britney oh yeah you talk about this in the book. Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest reasons people don't journal. This is what lockboxes are for. And, you know, I had this semi-traumatic experience in the eighth grade of leaving my journal in my bag in a gym locker room and a girl at my school finding my journal and reading it. Now, I've always been a very adventurous journaler, which is that I don't think of the journal as a space where you have to necessarily write in the

first person about things that are happening. My journals were like full of fantastical stories with aspirational, you know, female protagonists. And so in my journal, I, you know, had written essentially a bunch of lies about boys I said I kissed that I certainly hadn't. And it was like in that blurred line between nonfiction and fantasy. And so she went around and told everyone that I had written these things, that I was a liar, et cetera, et cetera. I now look back at that moment and I wish I had just owned it and said, yeah, it's not lying. It's a journal. It's private. I get to write whatever I want in there. I get to play make-believe. I get to whatever. But I think it's really scary to show up as your most unedited, vulnerable self in any space, let alone in a physical object that might fall in the wrong hands. and so my advice to you get a little carry-on suitcase with a lock get a lock box do whatever

it is that you need to do to feel like you can say whatever it is you need to say write your journal entry and then paint over it how do you feel about that I totally relate to what she's saying and when I read it in your book in the book of alchemy like when you talked about people's reluctance to journal the same thing. It's like, I always kind of, I, even when I'm alone, like even when I get on my knees and pray, I feel like I'm being watched and I'm like, hopefully the person who's watching me can help me. But I've always have this idea that someone will see it or watch it. So I can totally relate to that. But in a more practical sense, there are ways to keep privacy. You know, there are ways to remain private. There are, you know, you can do

all of these things. And I liked what you said in the book or about, you know, I, the idea of tearing it up once you write it, you know, to kind of start with that idea to, cause now I have a gratitude journal that I write in every morning just to write. And sometimes I think, oh, this sounds so, and I was like, it doesn't matter. Stop that, you know, stop thinking someone's going to read this. And just also, I, I kind of think about it in a way. So what if everybody does Also, who cares? But that doesn't really help this person. But that's when you're asking me how I feel about that.

I kind of think like it doesn't matter what anyone sees that I write to myself. It doesn't. It doesn't change how I feel. It doesn't change how I am in this world. If anything, it's more liberating to know that like I stand by everything I say, you know? Totally. And that we all have the same insecurities and fears and angst. But I think what you said is so astute and so interesting, which is sometimes the deeper fear isn't that someone won't read it. It's actually writing and reading what it is for yourself that you want to say.

It's so vulnerable to articulate what it is that you're, the truth of what you're feeling. I'm reminded of during my first book, I had this post-it note above my desk that said, if you want to write a good book, write what you don't want others to know about you. If you want to write a great book, write what you don't want to know about yourself. And I think journaling, when you're doing it deeply, requires you sometimes to write things you don't want to know about yourself. And that feeling of being exposed may actually not be so much about other people reading it because there are lots, as you put it, practical ways to make sure that that doesn't happen. Yeah, I think that's really beautiful. I think it's also so important to own for women, especially to own your thoughts. Like, I have a feeling that there's a big differentiation between as a whole men thinking about, you know, what people know about them versus women. Like we also have to be a little bit more we have to embrace ourselves a little bit more than we do. You know, it's a little bit too critical, a little bit too judgmental. And this has been going on for the last 10,000 years, you know, since we turned into a patriarchy that women are so we're scared, you know, and we and that's how we shrink. And so I think that really embracing that idea and really writing down the things that you're icked out about, you know, for lack of a better term in this moment, about yourself is like a great liberation.

Like, it's really great to write down all of the things and read them and be like, this is who I am. And it's beautiful. Totally. The poet Muriel Rukeyser has this great line. And she said, what would happen if one woman told the truth about her life? The world would break open. I think it's scary to tell the truth about your life, about what you're feeling, about what you want, especially when you're not doing it with an audience. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Because then you actually have to tell the truth. Yeah, right. And you have to look at it. And then inevitably you have to do something about it. Yeah. And so I guess to me, what's on the other side of that fear may be the thing that is needed most. Yeah. Well, beautifully said. You're a beautiful person. I'm just blown away by you. You're a beautiful person.

Thank you. But I mean, I just really, I'm so moved by your story. I'm so moved by your life. I'm so happy that you're, are you healthy now? I'm not. You're not? I'm not. I had a recurrence three years ago and then again two years ago. But the weird thing is, even though my prognosis may be worse than it's ever been, I think in a weird way, my relationship to my illness, but also my life in general is healthier than it's ever been. I believe that. I believe that. And you said something, I don't know if you said it or John said it, about the attention that you give to your illness that doesn't overpower your existence, that you give it the amount of attention it deserves. And not one ounce more. Right. And so what does that mean for you? So when I learned two years ago that the leukemia was back a third time, I was like, just undone.

I spent a month in bed and I just didn't know how to deal with that level of uncertainty, how to move forward with it. And I kept saying to my doctor, like, how do I live? Like, what do I do with this? What do you do when you have no idea what's going to happen in three months or six months? How do I make plans? how do I go on trips how do I make commit to work projects that might take several years to see through and the thing he said to me is the thing people often say which is you have to live every

day as if it's your last and I've come to believe that that is the worst advice I agree it's a lot of pressure yeah to make every family dinner meaningful to like make every day as great as it can be, and it's just exhausting. So I'm done doing that. I've come to believe it's bad advice generally, because if we were all doing that, we'd be declaring bankruptcy and the world would devolve into chaos. And so the way that I do that in terms of right-sizing my fear and going about living my life is that I've had to shift to a gentler mindset of living every day as if it's my first, which is to say, waking up with a sense of curiosity and wonder and playfulness that little kids do so easily. And when I do that, it's not about like the big bucket list things.

it's about finding small joys it's about lowering the pressure and and the barrier to entry and just moving towards what feels nourishing what feels fun what feels interesting and the things that make you smile you know yeah sharing smiles with strangers like those innocent acts or like you know little acts i guess those things it's like you know when you find yourself smiling alone at your house, you know, like looking out the window and looking at a tree and smiling. You're like, that's actually quite beautiful to have moments like that. And we all get swept up in the sea of craziness. So it's a great reminder. Or adopting five dogs, not because it makes sense. It certainly does not, but because it makes you happy. Yeah. Thank you, Suleka. Thank you,

Chelsea. Suleikha Jawad. Is that right? Perfect. I got it. I knew I'd get it. Now dub that in for all the times I fucked up. Okay. The book is called The Book of Alchemy and there's also The Alchemy Journal. Both are out now. And her previous book, Between Two Kingdoms, you can also purchase. And her column that she mentioned in the New York Times is called Life Interrupted. And also American Symphony. If you haven't seen American Symphony on Netflix, it was produced by the Obamas, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. That was an Oscar nominated film. A Grammy award-winning film. And it was a beautiful illustration of your lives together and just everything. So thank you so much for your time today. Thank you, Chelsea. Thank you.

If you want advice from Chelsea, write into DearChelseaPodcast at gmail.com. Dear Chelsea is a production of iHeartMedia. Follow Chelsea on all socials at Chelsea Handler and find Catherine on TikTok at Flash Kadabra. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered by Brandon Dickert, executive producer Catherine Law. Find full video episodes and minisodes now on Netflix and get tickets to see Chelsea live at chelseahandler.com. I survived nine months in captivity and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the Survivor Files. Every week i'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable abducted stalked controlled and

nearly silenced these are stories about what it takes to make it out alive listen to the survivor files with elizabeth smart on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts if your bookshelf and your for you page are equally important to your personality welcome home pro society is a weekly podcast that's part book club part group chat for anyone who thinks pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Did you hear the new episode

of the Hey Jonas podcast? We are at D23, so we'll see who stops by. The cast of Frozen stopped by Kristen Bell, Josh Gad, and Adina Menzel. I auditioned for Frozen. What? For Kristoff. They said, okay, what are you going to be singing today? I said, I don't know. That must have been why you didn't get it.

Oh, you probably won. Plus, John Stamos, Hayden Christensen from Star Wars, and more. And I guess I can share that, uh... No way. Listen to the latest episode of Hey Jonas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman.

I can wait four hours for the next bus, or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I chose option B. I'm Julie Pinheiro, and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word solita, trading the pity for possibility. Listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.