Life Will Be the Death of Me with Chelsea Handler - My Psychiatrist Explains My Personality (And Yours) - The Enneagram Episode

Episode Date: June 20, 2019

Chelsea is joined again by her psychiatrist, Dr. Dan Siegel for conversational examination of The Enneagram of Personality.Credits:Host: Chelsea HandlerGuests: Dr. Dan Siegel & Brandon MarloExecutive Producer: Conal Byrne Producers: Sophie Lichterman, Jack O’Brien Writers: Jamie Loftus, Anna Hossnieh & Sophie Lichterman  Consulting Producers: Nick Stumpf, Miles Gray, & Anna HossniehThis episode was Engineered, Mixed & Edited by: Danl Goodman Music by: KingsburyOrder: "Life Will Be the Death of Me"Available in stores and online now Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. Behind every night spent making the kids' lunches, there's a lot of suspense. Will they finally eat the veggies? Will the pesto survive the first bite? Will the lunchbox come home empty, half full, or come home at all?

And will you finish episode eight before you're done slicing the cucumbers? Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Crave, Netflix, and Disney Plus from $94 a month. Price guaranteed for two years on internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit. Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability.

Bell. Connection is everything. I survived nine months in captivity, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. Abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions. Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Chelsea Handler. Welcome to Life Will Be the Death of Me, a production of iHeartRadio. Hi there. We're here today. It's Brandon, Chelsea, and my psychiatrist, Dan Siegel, is here.

He's going to break down the Enneagram for us because that is a part of my book where I explain that I am a number eight on the Enneagram chart, which is something I had never heard of before. I met Dan, and we're going to go through all the numbers of the Enneagram because a lot of people have been asking me questions about it and how to take a test. There's a bunch of online tests you can take, and there's a bunch of different variations. Okay, so I want you to just take us through all the numbers because like a classic narcissist, I'm just familiar with my own. Even though I know we decided I'm not a narcissist. That's right. It was a grand jury decision, by the way, I would like to say.

And unanimous. That's right. Totally unanimous. Non-narcissistic. That's right. So the thing that, first of all, to say about the Enneagram that's so cool is that it's actually an inside job. unlike other systems of trying to classify personality this one isn't so much about what you would see someone doing in their behavior it's where their attention goes and so that's

an inner experience now so so watching another person you wouldn't be able to deduce what number they are no really you could make guesses and be right you could be make guesses and be wrong but it's an inside job that's what i love about it because it's really about where attention goes which means the inner systems of the brain, that's our view in the group I'm working with, are actually showing their proclivities, their tendencies. So as we go through these nine, keep in mind that the Enneagram system is an observation of where attention goes that has been really interesting and of value to lots of people. And then with these scientists, colleagues and I, we are really trying to say,

okay, that's really interesting observational data. Now what's happening in the brain? So as we go through this, I'll give you a little bit of the Enneagram and a little bit of our perspective. And they go together, I think, beautifully. But all of them are about the inside job. Okay, so the PDP model is your take on the Enneagram, correct? So our PDP model looks at the brain, number one, and then gives a developmental pathway of why people are like that. We're not getting into that here because it gets a little... So basically, Dan is saying he has a take on the Enneagram model, which is the PD model, which is patterns of developmental- Pathways.

Pathways. So that's what that is. Okay. Right. So meaning you have to decide or decipher where your attention goes and what resonates with you when you read these descriptions, right? Exactly. So like one time, I did this for my whole family. We sat around in a family meeting.

We went around these nine like we're just about to do. And then my father-in-law, bless his soul, he came up with one number. and all of his kids and his wife said, that's not you. And it really was him. He was being so open and honest about where he was at on these nine types. He landed himself right in one

and they said, that's not you. But it was. He had shown an external way of behaving just to get along with everybody. But his inside world was quite different. So this is what I think so great about the Enneagram. When we say it's an inside job, it means you can look up these descriptions. And as we go around the nine for everyone listening,

you can say, what is really my tendency? Not so much what I've learned to behave as to get along with other people, but where do I tend to go? And that's why we're so excited from a brain point of view to come up with this model we call PDP, these patterns of developmental pathways that likely start early in life with your temperament, are shaped in part by your relationship experiences, for example, with your parents, and then combine temperament and attachment, these relationship experience, to form personality. So that's our proposal, that it's a combination of experience and genetics, basically, that leads to personality. And it's an inside job because one of the most important things the brain does is say to you, hey, this is important,

So I'm going to pay attention. And what you pay attention to, Chelsea, may be different from what I pay attention to and, Brandon, what you pay attention to. And that's because our brains are wired differently because of genes and because of experience. Well, that's the question because I'm an 8 on the Enneagram. I'm an 8, which is like the fixer. And I asked you if that was my personality type always or if that was triggered by my brother dying. And then I became an eight. Right.

And that's exactly the question to ask. And it's a combination so that, you know, another sibling, even if they were the same age as you and even with the same relationship with Chet, if they had a different temperament, they may have had a different way of dealing with his death. and you, because of your temperament and your attachment experiences and your deep, deep, really beautiful relationship with Chet, his death meant something to you that would have been different than to a sibling. And so the way then we have the direct experience, his loss, and then the adaptation to it, that is based on all these temperament issues, attachment issues, and then how we just try to survive.

So that's why we're all different from each other. Okay, Brandon, do you know what number you are? I'm a number two. Number two, which is the helper. Oh, well, there you go. Okay. That was very helpful, Brenda. Thank you.

You're welcome. And as we get into this, I just want to say, because people are going to freak out when they find themselves, is that there isn't a good type and there isn't a bad type. So you say. So I say, yes. So I say. Well, when I asked you what the bad things are about the eight, you told me that there are no bad things about any of the numbers.

And I had to remind you that I needed to hear something like, you know, what my weakness was. And what it was was I lacked empathy. That's right. So there are weaknesses or shortcomings or growth edges, we could call them. Beautifully said. So it isn't that there aren't, you know, weak sides to each of these. Yes, there are challenging sides to every one of the nine we're about to go through. And so what you want to do is say, where am I generally anchoring myself?

And then what's my growth edge, as you point out? and if there are, let's say, an eight, or we're going to do a one now. Let's say there's a one who's not aware of their oneness, right? They're not aware where their temperament has brought them, where their personality now is structuring how they live. So then, if you're not unaware any of the numbers, life is going to be tough for very painful reasons that we're going to talk about. So each one of them has challenging, painful sides to it that if you don't become aware of it it will imprison you and what you want to do is move as we go through each of these nine from imprisonment by your type to actually being amused by your type you may never get rid of your

type there's no reason to get rid of it it's just kind of a home base but it's just amusing oh yeah that's right i'm an eight so i did that okay now my growth edge is becoming more empathic for you and now i'm more we call it actualized or more aware yeah the empathy by the way is a huge pain in my ass i want to let you know because now i'm in empathy and full gear full swing so anytime i meet anyone who annoys me i have to constantly think think about their house think about what their life might be like think about their spouse they might hate their spouse just think that their life might not be as as as nice as yours or not even that just think that that person might be going through something and it's exhausting dan yes i know what can i have to think about people's

shoes and their homes and their cars and getting there i wore special shoes for you aren't they thank you well no comment from you but anyway yes so here's what I want to give you some feedback on first of all I went to your amazing show last week in LA thank you and I brought my family and they were laughing so hard one of them said I haven't laughed so hard in years it was so therapeutic oh that's nice everybody you can we added more cities you can buy your tickets at livenation.com for the life will be the death of me tour so so great and my son was there and you know he's a musician so he's in a totally different field uh but he heard what you said about the experience of therapy so he said i never really knew what my dad did chelsea thank you so much

now i've heard because he's never heard a patient say this is what happened so thank you so much for that and what i want to say to you is in the green room afterwards your friends came up to me and they were one by one saying thank you thank you thank you you don't know how different chelsea She's so empathic. She's so patient. She listens. It's amazing. What happened?

And I said, well, you're reading the book. So she said, they were saying, she's now saying things that she didn't say before. She's being in a way that, and it was so beautiful. First of all, they were so loving you for the courage you've had to do these changes. So I know you're making a focus on empathy, but there's lots of ways where you have this spaciousness and they feel really heard by you in a beautiful way. And it's really, it was, a lot of them were in tears just talking about how great it is to have this deep connection with you now. That's nice.

Thank you. You're welcome. So let's go through the numbers. So in the system, the one, the reformer, the perfectionist, the way to think about it in the Enneagram system, they say it's the head type. This means there's a lot of thoughts. That's what the head type kind of means, lots of thinking. And the way to think about the one is basically for me to get along in the world, I need to have an internal sense of how things should be. So I have like a laundry list of the shoulds in life of how things ought to be that structures the way I go around in the world so that, you know, if I'm going to a party, for example, I would know that you're supposed to have certain drinks out.

You're supposed to have certain snacks out, that the pictures on the wall are supposed to be ordered in a certain way and not leaning. Is it like type A a little bit? Kind of. It has a drive type A for sure. And this is the idea that, you know, here what it says, the rational, idealistic type, principled, purposeful, self-controlled, and perfectionistic. When this is an actualized person, it's a person who's just super organized. and you might call them type a just in the sense that they're motivated but they come to life really self-possessed when they're actualized and i know a kind of center of ideals on how things

should be so that's beautiful it's great and if you're starting a company you want an actualized one there with you you know you know in your life and certainly for romantic partners you want an actualized one now watch what happens if you don't have an actualized one then and here's where the anger part for us in the PDP model is so helpful. You get really angry if the world isn't matching your internal expectation. And the first person you get really angry at is yourself. And they beat up on themselves. And, you know, if I'm going to do, if I'm a one that's not actualized, and I'm doing, let's say, a project at work, and it doesn't come out the way I want, I'm going to work at it and work at it and work at it. And every time it's not the way I want,

I'm just sort of beat up on myself. And the world around you gets about 1% of the fury you have toward yourself. So an unactualized, unaware – What do you mean the world around you gets 1% of the fury you have toward yourself? You know, let's say the person's in a business and there's their employee who didn't do it the way the one who's the employer thought it should be. They may say, that wasn't right. You shouldn't do it like that. Do it the way I told you to.

Well, the way that yelling is, it's 100 times stronger when they themselves haven't met their own expectations. Right. So they're projecting. They're projecting their anger, but a just small percentage of it. And that's helpful if you know a one because you realize as hard as they are on the people around them, because you don't know what their laundry list was and they get mad at you, they're getting much angrier towards themselves. So this is where you can see an actualized one is really very effective in the world and someone that's wonderful to be around because now they're saying, I have a sense of what's going to get things done and I get them done. And that's an actualized one. And they don't get mad at them.

They say, oh, well, I didn't do it the way it should be done. That's okay. I know where I'm headed towards, but it didn't get exactly there. I could be kind to myself. right so you can see where even with the same characteristics of a one if you're actualized it's one way of living if you're not you're in a prison of this huge amount of anger lots of thinking and you feel like just fretting that things aren't going to be the right way you see how that would work okay so they're rational they're idealistic principled purposeful

self-controlled so they're not drug addicts well anyone can become a drug addict but yes that's good to know exactly

right and perfectionistic right and this is the other name that's given it to it right perfectionist

I knew I wasn't a reformer because I'm not a perfectionist yeah and neither am I and you know like when I write books or whatever like I'll do my best

I'll put my heart into it and then I turn it in and I say okay next book you know whereas a one it wouldn't be like that it would be like

This has to be just right. And I really respect that, but it can drive you mad. But there are degrees of being just right without being a perfectionist, I think. Right? That's such a good point because every single one of us have each of the nine characteristics. It's really more what's your propensity? What's your tendency? Where do you kind of land?

So, yeah, hopefully we all have a little bit of this, like, I have an idea how it should be, but we're not imprisoned by it. Right. Yeah. Because there's always something you have very close attachments to. Like me writing this book, I would rewrite, rewrite chapters. And my friend Sophie would be like, oh, my God, how many times can you rewrite one chapter? I'm like, 20. Like I can redo a chapter several times because it's so personal.

It has to be. But I'm still not a perfectionist. I still kind of half-ass other things. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And there's an interesting comparison of the one and the three you'll see in a moment that helps clarify that. So that's the one. Okay, so let's go to two. So the two, now we've moved to a different zone.

This is Brandon. Yeah. And the helper. The Enneagram, the two, is a part of what's called the heart center. And in our PDP model, you know, this would be where it's sadness or separation, distress. So the heart, literally, in our bodies is actually an organ that has a set of neurons around it that's kind of like a brain. And amazingly, your sense of relationship with others is processed by this network around your heart. You also have a brain, in fact, around your gut.

So you have three brains. What do those brains look like, Dan? They're literally what's called the intrinsic nervous system of the heart. So if you can imagine a spiderweb-like kind of mesh that's all around the heart, that's what it is. And that connects to your brain? It connects to your brain, yeah, in your head. To send signals to your brain from your heart. Both directions, yeah.

It sends from the heart to the brain and from the brain to the heart. Brandon, did you know that? I didn't. The more you know. There you go. The more you grow. Exactly. The more you know, the more you grow.

and branded for you if you're saying you kind of found yourself in a two zone you know we now go to the heart center so unlike the head center with lots of thinking thinking thinking now it's the heart center and it's for us it's about this relationality that's what the heart is really about our relationship to other people our relationship to the larger world and you know poets have known this a long time and here the two unlike the one who's kind of focused inwardly what's my internal list of how things should be. The two now moves not only to the heart center, but it moves to an external focus, which goes like this. How can I work on my relationships with other people? And in the different settings I've been in, I've been able to study a bunch of

ones, a bunch of twos, et cetera, each of these in pure form and hang out with them. The twos, I think, have a lot of what are called mirror neurons, meaning they're really sensitive to the internal state of other people. Brandon, does that? Yeah, I would agree. Okay. Now other people don't have that. So just as a two, you may not realize everyone's not like that. So when I had all these twos up on a stage and they were like being interviewed, when one of the people would cross their legs and fold their arms, everyone on the stage did the exact same thing. And the mirror neuron system that we have basically allows you to do two things. It allows you to observe another person, imitate their behavior automatically, but also to feel their feelings.

So it's like sponge neurons. And I think the twos just are born with a lot of them, which means you're very tuned into the internal needs of another person. And so with that external focus, I'm focusing on other needs. Here it's called the helper, which is the common term for it, the caring interpersonal type, demonstrative, generous, people pleasing and possessive you know an actualized two is just a person who's really kind giving but knows enough about their own tendencies that they don't give up their own needs because they're aware wow i just have a tendency to take care of everybody but i got to remember to take care of me this internal person whereas an unactualized two would get lost in

other people's needs, constantly be trying to help them get associated with people who maybe have big problems, so I can be really of help, then really needs to be needed. And then if they're not needed or there isn't an acknowledgement that they're being needed, they get really irritated. Yes, Brandon, that's you. He's possessive over me. He wants to get everybody else out of my life so he can shift his thoughts into my brain and take over.

Yeah, she likes to use the word controlling. Yes, he's, yeah, like last night, he disabled everything in my room so that I would have to call him to turn the television on in my room. Can you believe it, Dan? And he did it remotely for me. And because he's disabled my iPad, my remote control, he wants me to rely on him for everything. She's become too self-sufficient. We have to revert back a little bit. It's job security, Dan. Okay. This is exactly two behavior, right? Beautiful. So now you can understand it. Now, how does it help you or change you or affect you to know there's this thing called a two that you may be, Brandon? I think anytime you have a reference point to certain characteristics or

attributes, you can make sense of them a little bit. And so knowing that there is, like you say, the growth edge where there are things that any of these numbers can work on, you have kind of a touch point to go back to like, okay, well, I've spent a lot of time working on someone else. Like it's a reminder. These are the things I need to work on for myself. Beautiful. Yeah. And that's great and that's so well said because this is the point of doing all this is not to just shove people in a category and say oh my god i'm a two there's nothing i can do it's quite the opposite you say okay now i understand this tendency you know whether you get the brain stuff with our pdp thing or not it's just you say okay that's my tendency so my growth edge and that's a beautiful

um term that david daniels loved to use it was a big any grand person who passed recently um It says, as a two, my main growth edge is don't lose my own needs. I should go to the gym. I should do this. I should do that. And also, if Chelsea's trying to be a little more independent, then when you start getting irritated with that and feel like she's pulling away from you. It's not. Well, he is, probably subconsciously.

For the record, I am supportive of her self-sufficiency. I have enabled that. I would like her to be self-sufficient. So it seems. Well, we don't really know what's going on behind the scenes. We don't. No, I only know. And apparently our house man, Willie, is on to something too because he came up this morning and asked if he could make me a coffee, which was very weird.

But I appreciated it. But, I mean, I'm trying to become less infantilized, not more. Yeah, and this is the thing about it. You know, when we match with people in relationships, like, you know, you and Brandon have a certain thing going. So, you know, you actually may want to help Brandon by letting him be needed. I mean, this is complicated, right? Okay, Brandon. Yeah, now who's controlling who?

Exactly. At this point, it's very – yeah, whom is controlling whom? Yes, yes, yes. Zoom to whom? It's so confusing. Okay. So that's the helper. Okay.

And the helper needs to work on what? On self-care. So all of these numbers that we're going to go through, you can be somebody who's unaware or you can become a self-actualized number, which means you're aware of your shortcomings, your growth edge, and areas of improvement. Exactly. That's exactly right. And then to not only think of shortcomings, think of them as tendencies so that you say, okay, my tendency is to not have empathy. Fine. So my growth edge is build empathy. Fine. And now that's going to be actually a strong suit of mine. That's going to be actually a real great characteristic. So each of them, when you work, when you become actualized,

it's awesome right yes okay so three is the achiever or what sometimes called the performer performer okay yeah because i would have thought i was that one right so this one you know here it says the success oriented pragmatic type adaptive excelling driven and image conscious so i'll give you just an example you know i i was trained in something called enneagram in the narrative tradition uh helen palmer and david daniel started this thing it's a beautiful way of So basically, you get together for, you know, a few days or a workshop or a week or whatever, and all of, let's say in this case, the threes, but you do them for every type, get up on a stage, and then there's an interviewer who's training to be a professional in this field who interviews, let's say, the threes. So in this case, you know, it was now time for the threes to get up, right? The clock said 2 o'clock.

It was time for the threes to get up there. None of them were up there. So the rest of us, all the other numbers, were sitting in the audience. There was no one on the stage. This had never happened before. Everyone is always punctual, especially the ones. And then we left. We said, we bet they're all in the bathroom combing their hair.

So someone said, probably a seven, said, let me go check. And they ran to the bathroom. And sure enough, all the threes were in there making sure their hair was just right. So that sounds like a perfectionist, no? Well, it's a person who really cares, and this is where it's still in the heart zone, right, so it's about relationships, someone who really cares how other people are going to think of them, right? So, like, you would never see me doing it. Like, my daughter had to say to me, Dad, you know, you probably think it's selfless not to be combing your hair. And I go, what do you mean?

She goes, you never comb your hair, do you? I go, no, not really. She goes, do you ever look in the mirror? i go well actually not she probably she says do you realize how selfish that is i said what do you mean she's a teenager then and she goes it's selfish because go look in the mirror and you'll see what i mean you look like you put your fingers in an electric socket and you may not have to look at yourself but the rest of us do so go look in the mirror and comb your hair right now a three would never be like that a three would have a comb they would go to the mirror i mean i never do i'm

is not a three right so i don't and this is where she says it's selfish i don't really care what other people think about my appearance as you probably know because you make comments about my shoes i've picked up on that i try to match my clothes as best i can but i have i'm color challenged so in any of it the issue is the threes that's a different thing their go-to place this is the tendency right is to say are other people going to accept me and what are the ways they're gonna accept me they're gonna accept me by my appearance because i'll be good looking they'll accept me because if i perform well they'll say wow dan is has done that song really beautifully or he's really great so the difference between a one that you're pointing out would care about

outcome and a three and this is part of the questionnaire we have in this book i wrote called the mindful therapist you can see in the chapter on traits this whole thing outlined with an interview you can do with the questions from a PDP point of view you know basically a one you say if you're doing a project are you more concerned about the essence of the project or how the project appears and a one says the essence of it I want everything to be exactly right and the three says of course I care about how it appears yeah so that's the difference it's I want to impress others so the main thing is not how complete and comprehensive the project is is it's not that that's a one here for three it's did you like me they want to be accepted

accepted that's the it's a relational thing the three is not about relationships it's about the thing itself so you know you want to have like if you're starting a company or whatever you want to know who's going to be a one doing the work that get the projects just right but then in you know the front office or who's designing your your space you want a three who says, I like things to appear really nicely. Comb your hair. Right. So, yeah.

So that's a three. And so the downside of a three is if people don't approve of me, I feel terrible. I feel really, really bad. And the classic question we ask for all these, if you're going through this, is to say, when you were a late adolescent or in your early adulthood, before you had maybe any therapy or reading any Enneagram books

or anything like that, What would you do when you're in a stress? Which is most people. Which is most people. I mean, not people who are listening to this. People who are listening to this probably read my book and are listening to, you know. Well, they know a little bit about it. But I mean, you just say before you really studied this or had therapy to change, when you were just yourself without much effort to change.

When you're in a stressful situation, the classic one I like to use is you go to a gathering of people like a party and you don't know anyone. Where does your attention go? The one goes to are things the way they should be? The two goes to who's in need that I can be helping. The three goes to are people going to be impressed by me? So I need to say things a certain way so people say, wow, that person's really whatever, smart, funny, you know, whatever it is. I've impressed them as a three in the party, right? So an unactualized three is a prisoner to that.

So I'm constantly trying to impress people. Whereas, you know, an actualized three would say, yeah, it's my tendency to go in a group situation and want to be doing something that makes people happy. But I want to do something that really actually also makes them do well. So I could become an actor or a comedian or a musician or, you know, a politician. But I'm trying to actually make the government policies better. But I like being on stage because I like the applause. And that's OK. There's nothing wrong with that.

And in fact, all of us have a bit of that. Yeah. I mean, nobody hates applause for themselves. Some people get embarrassed. But for the most part, as an adult, you can appreciate that. If people are cheering for you, it's usually a good thing. I know some people loathe attention. But think about the difference, let's say, in someone who says, I want to do something where people applaud because they really learned something and their lives are going to be better. And I really am grateful that the interaction we just had improved their lives versus I got up on stage and I showed them how smart I am. Yeah. I showed them what a great dancer I am. You know, what a great, you know. And that's the unactualized three.

Okay. So anyway, so there's a reason everyone is the way they are, which when you feel that about people, you go, oh, I get it. This has helped me so much understand other people too, which is what you told me initially, that understanding that everybody's coming from a different spot is helpful information. Yeah, exactly. So for the three, the feeling is I just want to be at one with the uterus. That's our view. Oh, the uterus. I thought it was the universe.

I know. That's the joke. Oh, shit. But the idea is you start in the womb, and you're at one with things. Every one of us come out, and depending on your tendencies, you come out different ways. That's it in a nutshell. But the bottom line is for a three, I just want to be loved. That's it.

So simple. And the way I'm going to be loved is to impress you. And if I'm not actualized, then I'm going to be a prisoner to that. If I'm actualized, I'm going to turn it into my impressing you is actually helping you. And I'm going to educate you or make you deeply laugh about something that helps you learn something about yourself or you're going to start helping others. Right. So we can turn any of these tendencies into a really great contribution to the world. Yeah. Brandon, that's a reminder. Would you write down that I'd like to get my uterus removed? Yes.

OK, we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back. Behind every night spent making the kids lunches, there is a lot of suspense. Will they finally eat the veggies? Will the pesto survive the first bite? Will the lunchbox come home empty, half full, or come home at all? And will you finish episode eight before you're done slicing the cucumbers? Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Crave, Netflix, and Disney Plus from $94 a month. Price guaranteed for two years on internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit.

Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability. Bell. Connection is everything. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months. I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files. I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.

I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts if your bookshelf and your for you page are equally important to your personality welcome home this is prose society the weekly podcast that's part book club part group chat for thought daughters pop culture obsessives and anyone who thinks pride

and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse i'm eli rallo and every week we're connecting the dots between books the internet and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

See you between the pages. Okay, number four. We're on number four, yeah. The individualist or? You know, the words that are used, the other words are sometimes insulting, so I think I've intentionally forgotten this one. I think this one's called romantic. Romantic. I know fours.

A couple of my close friends are fours. Self-identified fours. Really? Okay. And what do they say? They're hard. They're very opinionated. They're very romantic.

They're very sensitive. But they hold on to this notion of romance in a way that I can definitely see them separating themselves from others. Like way more than other people do. They're very romantic about the notion of it all. Exactly. Exactly. So that's where the romantic – And they hold on to the past a lot.

That's my perception of a four. Yeah. So there's, you know, it says the sensitive, withdrawn type, expressive, dramatic, self-absorbed, and temperamental. So, you know, I was given the beautiful opportunity by David Daniels and Helen Palmer to be a scientist at this meeting with 50 people studying the Enneagram. So, you know, it turned out that we did an interview. They let me do this research interview that I'm trained to do. And then I said, okay, everyone's going to do the interview. Fine, they did it.

I got the results. That was beautiful, really interesting. But then I said, just to make this a public educational experience, let's just pick one person randomly to talk about it. So randomly, I just, everyone, a bunch of people raised their hand, and I just picked someone. I didn't know what her type was. And she was a four.

So then everyone got, oh, no. And I said, what? I didn't know, but at the end of the day, I'm thinking, what? This is going to go on for five or six hours. And the idea is for this type. They're loquacious, for sure. Very loquacious, right. exact poets and all sorts of beautiful beautiful things now here's the thing about this four they

here it's called the individualist or the the romantic um the idea that i that's really helpful for me to anchor this one and this this makes it really see why it's hard it's we're still in the heart zone okay so the two was the heart zone for us it's sadness you know but in the enneagram system it's the heart zone and it's about external focus the three is kind of both inward and outward focus. Now we're going to an inward focus of the heart. Okay, so two, three, and four are heart. They're all heart, right? And sadness would be our view. And separation, distress. And here's the statement I once learned from David Daniels that was so helpful. It's that there's a feeling inside that other people are not like me. I'm unique. Not like I'm bragging about that,

but I actually feel kind of lonely. There's actually no one like me. I'm kind of alone. that's number one and number two that other people have it better than me you know this statement the grass is always greener on the other side there's always a feeling of something missing now our view is that yeah you used to be in the womb and now you're out of the womb something is missing before you didn't have to breathe you didn't have to eat you didn't have to call out for anything you were just at one with uterus you know this oneness of being and now you got to do all this stuff so there is something missing that's our view but for a four it's like oh my god there's something missing. I have this longing that will never be quenched. And you write poetry about it, do songs,

do paintings, journal writing, all this stuff. And when they're not actualized, they just have this quality of self-absorption because there's something feels so wrong. So in therapy, if you're working with a four, what's so helpful about this system is you say, that feeling you have that there's something missing and something will always be missing will likely always be with you and don't take it so seriously yeah because it isn't that there's something missing it's just that's your type and that is so helpful because people are always looking for what's the thing missing and in our system we just say what's missing is you're not in your mother's womb you know right and they go oh i got it i'm longing for oneness that is actually what i did have when

i was in the womb see this is why our system we we find so helpful because you say that's what it's there for now what is an unactualized for doing then they're pining they can be tendency to be depressed you know be by themselves and a lot of people do talk about how they can be prone to alcoholism and you know really just want to drink their way away from this unbelievable pain they can feel if they're isolated you know and in contrast an actualized for could just be this exquisite, romantic view of life where you say, okay, yeah, I am a four, so I realize there's always gonna be this longing, but I can turn that energy of longing into actually creating art in the world, beauty. I can write songs, I can do, you know, these incredible poems, and I can express

what is a common human journey, which is, you know, we're all looking for something, and I don't have to take my longing and this emptiness that I feel as absolute truth. It's just a feeling I have. And this is why, again, the Enneagram is so cool because it's an inside job. You might not know that that's what this person is. So a lot of fours, it's hard from the outside to figure it out because they're having this internal experience. See, but I would think that those qualities that you're describing are easy to sense in somebody else, especially number four, somebody who's self-absorbed, somebody who's dramatic, very temperamental, maybe depressed, you know, always not ever in a state of bliss.

Well, that's probably because you're a lot more empathic than I am. Okay, thank you. I was hoping you would say that today. Okay, let's move on to number five, the investigator or? The investigator, the other word for it is the, it's like the expert, but there's another way of saying expert. it's like the um i don't want to say dilettante because that's so insulting but i think some people use that term but it's the expert now this one's really really interesting so now we've gone

i shouldn't say that because that shows my bias they're all interesting are you a five dan no well not really i mean what what number do you want to tell us what number you are we'll see when we get to it you'll you'll see if you can you know me coming in hot you know me pretty well right so so this is um we're now moving from the heart zone into the the um the head the head zone actually yeah because i said before that a one was the head i was wrong it was the gut it was anger and the gut see that's how i don't find this gut heart stuff so helpful but anyway we're now going to the head okay so let me correct myself from before the one is actually the gut zone but is anger but anger really okay yeah right you feel it that way which actually that's why we

don't use those in our view but anyway so now you're moving to the five which is the head and here it's actually fear or anticipatory anxiety so the five here it says the investigator the intense cerebral types there's the head business perceptive innovative secretive and isolative You know, I don't think it has to be like that, but that's what these descriptions can say. So here's the idea of a five. Three things are really important for what directs attention. This is what it's all about. Where does your attention go when you go to that party?

So a five, the big three things are I really care if I'm a five. I really care about my time, my space. That's my space, my personal space. and i really care about my knowledge and any way i can work these three things out to really keep myself basically feeling like life is going to be okay i'm not in the womb anymore i'm out what do i do so i'm going to be focused very much on the inside world like what's my knowledge so what i do is i learned everything about you know how to play volleyball and i study it and I study the game and now I'm going to go take every lesson I can on playing volleyball or

I learn how to you know do golf that way or how to sail that way or you know so I dive really really really deeply into becoming an expert but then after I do that I say well I got that let me go on to the next sport let me go into the next sport let me go to the next thing and I gather people around me who are experts right so if I were a journalist I would be someone who is interviewing experts in something right and so now i get my expertise that's my knowledge when i go to that party i actually feel very drained when i'm around a lot of people right so at this research opportunity i had interviewing all the fives amazingly a lot of them were experts in what they did they'd been promoted to actually heads of companies this

was in silicon valley and they knew everything about their particular in this case they were tech companies that tech industry and they had people around them who are experts so the company could become like you know the established thing that we now know in these big companies you know so these were fives and you know so their knowledge was protected they would have their office so their space was protected they came in and out of that you know session in fact none of them were at the retreat they just came to do a favor to david daniels you know and they came in um and what was so fascinating about it was they role-played what it's like to be a five and to have human beings intrude on your space and they just go get away get away and they really

needed downtime so that social interaction can sometimes be very draining so the party analogy you know what happens when you're at the party is they don't stay very long at the party or they just stay in the corner of the party or they find a really smart expert in something at the party so that's the the downside is you know is that you can be very isolated um but in the the upside is when they become actualized they realize wow i can use my focus in detail to develop an expertise in some area so i know everything about this area of history or this sport or this this that or you know and i use that in a very positive way right so that's the the upside of a five and And, you know, you can have people have tendencies for the five or full on fives.

And just to be realizing that's where you are can drive you in a beautiful way. You can get a lot of knowledge. You can be the person in a company that when you say we need to know about the future of this area of our company's work and a five will go, no problem. And they dive in and they learn everything on the planet known about that. And that's who you want on your team. You want a little bit of everybody, right? And so the five can do that. Okay.

Yeah. And the six is the loyalist? Yeah, the six is sometimes the loyalist or the loyal skeptic is sometimes what it's called. And this says the committed, security-oriented type, engaging, responsible, anxious, and suspicious. You're a six, right? I think you're a six. Yeah. Yeah. I'm suspicious of you saying that. And it makes me a little anxious. So the idea of the

six, again, is you're in this head zone, right? And so fear and anticipatory anxiety is what a six does. And the funny thing about a six, and yes, that's where I land. I had no idea. I only knew one type I wasn't. And then when I went to Helen and David, I said, all I can tell you is what I'm not. And they were both sixes. And so they landed me in this six zone. I got up on stage with the sixes who are from all over the world right these are heads of hospitals heads of companies heads of all sorts of you know they came from all over the world to do this week together so i'm really a skeptical well obviously i'm six i'm skeptical so i'm skeptical i'm up there but the one question the interviewer asked i i couldn't stop laughing my head off because it's

a head type right they said when you go to the market and you're supposed to buy like a roll of whatever paper towels what do you do and every single one of us said you buy seven rolls and then they said why and they go because you never know when there's gonna be an earthquake or a disaster and that store will close so if you're bothering to be there you have to prepare for the worst case scenario and that's essentially what a six is is you come out of the womb things aren't right and and you have to think about what's the worst thing that can happen and prepare yourself for it. So there's a lot of focus on danger. That's the fear part. And there's a lot of, you know, when you go to that party, you look at where the fire exits are. You look at where the

people are that could hurt you, people that could protect you. If you go to like, I remember going to Dodger Stadium, I would see the police in the stadium immediately. I'd know where all the exits were. I wasn't trying to do that. It's where your attention goes. As a physician, being a six is really really challenging and it's also wonderful because when a patient comes to see you you know when i was doing you know medical medicine i would say okay well i think it's probably you know an intestinal flu but what if it's a life-threatening problem in their intestines and i would always second guess things and i got to be known in the hospital when i worked in a hospital as a person who would find things that were so rare most human beings wouldn't even think

about them but i would and i'd find them and they would actually sometimes be there and i'd save someone's life a couple times when i was in pediatrics because i thought outside the box because now i know because i'm a six so it's it's exhausting when you're not actualized because you take every worry you have seriously so it can be really terrifying when you become actualized you go isn't that amusing so actualization is more just like awareness it's awareness it's just being conscious of your behavior and what you're where your attention goes like in a default mode exactly i couldn't say it better and the awareness of thank you you're welcome and then where you go in the default mode you then can change so i don't have to buy seven rolls of paper towels anymore

i can go there i did this just yesterday i was so proud of myself i went there and i just bought two things in the past i'd buy you know 25 things right right i try to avoid markets altogether well there you go in my opinion i just think it's best to just not go in so that's the six and there's two different variations just so you know the fear can be so great there's the anti-fear types and that for any six listening to this you have to be very careful and i certainly had to be really careful in my life where because the fear is so great you just completely shut it off and fear can be your friend you know and so when you completely shut it off you do stuff that's really dumb uh that endangers yourself or others because that was that's your style you become an

i forgot what the word is but it's anti-fear there's another word for it um and you know so i had to realize that was a tendency i have so you know if i i was in africa recently and some colleagues of mine were going out near this waterfall really big big guys you know and i'm not that big but they were big and they were going out and they were adventurers so they said come with me come with me and so i said i could go this would be a fun adventure with the boys um but you know look at that waterfall it's like 200 feet they're like 10 feet from it they're walking in slippery rocks is this my sick stuff making me not do it well i should do it i should do it that's the anti-fear stuff you know something i'm not gonna do it they went and they

slipped and one guy was going right down the waterfall and and the women who were with us i go you know i feel like a wimp look i didn't go to the guys and and the one woman goes you know what you are i said what she goes you're a man those are just little boys that guy almost died yeah i would do i would have gone with them for sure yeah brandon would you have gone with them i would have gone with them yeah okay i would have been hesitant yeah but see i have no regard for my personal safety so you're not a six that's for sure or an anti-six but yeah yeah but i don't know i mean the impetus to go join them is more ego-based probably like to be that girl you know that's wants to have fun that's dangerous that's adventurous so that's a different situation yeah

well exactly yeah because it's like do i really want to go to the waterfall sort of but i could go either way too and be fine with not going okay well then this is a good question based on her number being an eight if there weren't people there would you still go to the waterfall for yourself right good question for maybe it depends i probably wouldn't have pushed i wouldn't push the limit on my own i would be i push the limit when people are watching really oh interesting i mean that's been my pattern of behavior who knows maybe it'll be different now but when you say they were watching is because you'd want to impress them or like i want to be the girl that's well both like i like to i like adventure but i also like to see people i like

people to see me like having an adventure i like that aspect too okay so let's come to that in just one second because we're gonna do the seven then we're on to you the eight right so we're going in sequence so um anything else about the six six loyalist okay so anxious suspicious responsible engaging security oriented committed okay so that's a six yeah okay and i'll say one thing more about the six that's so interesting is um because you're always looking for the worst case scenario you don't trust authority figures you look at them and they say i believe i say this is true and that's true and you just it's amazing this is for all the sixes you just look at them you go i don't believe that what you're saying is necessarily true and i will challenge it and that

can be an incredibly when you're an actualized incredibly useful because then you look for the actual truth not what is presented to you yeah so that is a good bonus i'm proud to be a six okay what sounds like it okay well this sounds like a good time to take a break behind every night spent making the kids lunches there's a lot of suspense will they finally eat the veggies will the pesto survive the first bite will the lunchbox come home empty half full or come home at all and will you finish episode 8 before you're done slicing the cucumbers get bell pure fiber internet with crave netflix and disney plus from 94 a month price guaranteed for two years on internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit visit bell.ca for details

and to check availability bell connection is everything when i was 14 years old i was kidnapped and held captive for nine months i survived and i've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them i'm elizabeth smart and these are the survivor files i just remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying shut up don't say anything every week i'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable i knew if he woke up without a doubt he was going to hurt me i started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed and i just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.

It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages. So the seven, the enthusiast sounds pretty sweet. It is. Busy, fun-loving, spontaneous, versatile, distractible, and scattered. Those, I mean, that just sounds like a good time.

That's what I thought I was originally, and then I realized I was an eight because an eight is a little bit more cynical, I think. Yeah. Brandon? That's what I would have said you were too when I read these the first time. Yeah, I would have gone for it. Scattered, distractible, yes, exactly. spontaneous fun loving and busy yeah you know the seven again we're still in the head business right

so the the five is the head internal six is the head both focusing inward and outward the seven is an outward focused head type so one of the characteristics of the seven is you know they come out of the womb they got to always be planning things what's the fun thing i can do what's the fun thing what can i do next what can i do next so like at this meeting a seven came to me and said look, I live in this other country in Asia. I love your approach. I really want to do this project and I want to do that project. And then we can have a third project we do. And I said, those sound so exciting. And then he looks at me, he goes, they do, don't they? I said, yeah. He goes, you realize we won't do any of them. So what do you mean? He goes, I'm a seven. I just

come up with ideas. I don't follow through. I have no follow through. Okay. So it's that, it's that too. No follow through. Well, then I definitely know a lot of people that are like that. You know, just put lots of ideas, lots of ideas. And interestingly, one of the sevens had a broken leg and he was in a cast and he was going to lose his mind. And so he was up on the stage. And so people said, what's going on? He goes, as a seven, this is what he said. As a seven, I always have to be planning things and I always have to have the freedom to do whatever I want to do. Planning, planning, planning, planning, planning. This broken leg is driving me mad because all I want to do is do stuff and I can't do it. I can't do it. And he literally was going

explode out of his cast a five in contrast who had a broken leg would say cool i can be in my room i can control my time i can read all the books i want no problem so you can see with the same broken leg for a seven an unactualized seven would drive them mad for five you say what a golden opportunity to learn more interesting yeah yeah so you know the seven i know a couple of sevens I think I know a lot of sevens. You know, what's fun about it is when they're actualized, they realize, okay, I have these 20 ideas. I know I'm not good at following through, but I can actually complete two of them, and I'm going to do that. Whereas an unactualized one would come up with 20 ideas, start each of the 20, and none of them get done.

The actualized seven would say, I'm an adventurer. I like to do these things. This is great. I picked 20 ideas. I'm doing two. That's who I am. I'm a seven. Okay. Eight is the challenger or the fixer. Powerful, dominating type, self-confident,

decisive, willful, and confrontational. Now, how did you feel when you heard that the first time? Sounds about right. For you. Powerful, dominating, self-confident, decisive. I make, yes. Willful. I can be indecisive, but I make decisions very quickly. Confrontational, yes. That's me. So let's talk about what you feel an unactualized eight would have as their life versus an actualized eight uh an eight would be on the move all the time to you know constantly going going going fast uh lack of you know lack of empathy and angry and uh out like you know and and everybody knows it kind of like a bully yeah yeah great so so now we're in the gut type so it's

a gut reaction and for us it's it's anger right and so you're you're expressing that so an unactualized one then would be dominated by anger not so much directed inwardly because the the eight is is this gut type that's outward focused and it's really about um that's our pdp system where we look inward or outward and so for the eight the anger is all out there which obviously can have be a real problem for relationships yes yeah definitely problematic so when i got a chance to interview a bunch of eights. They were not only on the stage, but then I hung out with them afterwards in each of the types. But when I'm having dinner with the eights, this is what they beautifully said. And this is what you referred to earlier. I said, what's the bottom line? These

are actualized eights who'd come to a week-long conference to study their own type. So that's a pretty actualized person in general who's going to do that, or at least trying to be. Here's what They said, two things we cannot stand. One is being vulnerable. Yeah. And related to that, of course, is needing others. Can't stand that. And the second thing is, and this, I couldn't believe they said this.

This is a picture around a table of about 10 eights, all eights, right? Having dinner with each other and me. And they said, we have no empathy. I said, what do you mean? I said, it's just not our go-to. We can try to do it, but before we're actualized, we have none, and now we really try. We know it's not our tendency. Which explains why you're so confrontational, because you don't understand other people

why they're doing things differently or why they're slower or they have a different approach because you have no empathy. Exactly. So it makes you angry. Right, exactly. So if you go with the PDP model, our view of the anger, the source of it is, you used to be in the womb, you're not there, you come out, oh my God, what happened? Come out pissed.

You come out pissed off. I'm hungry. The world isn't doing what it needs to do. My parents suck. Parents, everybody sucks, even if they're great parents. Yeah, everybody sucks. Right. Everyone's a disappointment and nobody gets it.

There you go. That's an eight. Right. So that's the anger. So that's why for us in the PDP model, talking about anger rather than the gut type makes a lot more sense because you can be a very cerebral eight, really smart. So that's why we don't use those head, gut, heart things. It's really here in anger.

Now, here's the amazing thing. An eight, before they're actualized, will do all sorts of things to protect the underdog. But if that underdog doesn't stand up for herself or himself, they get really angry at them. Yeah. Done it a million times. Okay, there you go. Gone to battle for somebody who couldn't defend themselves. And when it came time for them to defend themselves, they couldn't.

And then how did you react? Angry. There you go. Yeah, totally. So that's classic for an eight. I don't know. Or to return the favor to me, like to do the same to me in a situation. Like if I go to bat for somebody and they weren't able to go to bat for me in return, that would produce anger as well.

Right. So think about the unactualized eight then where anger is their go-to feeling, the focus is outward, and there's not a cultivation of empathy, right? So you're incredibly empathic now, Chelsea, I'm going to say that. Well, I mean it's forced empathy right now. Okay, but whatever. I'm just trying to overcorrect so that it lands somewhere in the middle in about six months. Well, your report of your friends is you're doing a great job. Thank you, friends.

I just want to give you that feedback. But what I want to tell you is that an unactualized eight, then imagine that combination, no empathy and anger, and there's this feeling like you better stand up for yourself. They project their own things about vulnerability, right, and needing other people. And when this person isn't holding their own, bam, you go after them. So they're scary. Yeah. Yeah, they are scary for sure.

It can be super scary whether they're your lover or your parent or your friend or your, you know, whatever position of a boss. What's that? Or your boss. Brandon, can you say a little bit more about that? Yes, Brandon. Please elaborate. Go beyond your two concern about needing to be needed and you can say it. No, she's pretty good with me.

It's other people. It's like people on the outside that I've seen the confrontation with. Yeah, and what have you noticed? But you also see the confrontation with internal conflict. What do you mean? Are you talking about me getting upset with myself? Okay. A lot of times you can see it on the outside, but then when you see it internally, that they're getting upset with themselves or angry with themselves about something.

Well, with Chelsea, how did that work out? Did understanding this eight business help you put a frame on it and understand what the whole system was about, how Chelsea was behaving? Yes, because I see a lot of myself in her, so in her behaviors when she gets upset about something. That's what I mean when he says he's trying to control me. He thinks that I came from him, from his loins. Right. Goes back to the uterus. Do you still have your uterus?

I do, but we'll get them taken out at the same time. Don't worry. Thank you. So that was easy for me to see it and rationalize those behaviors, but also know that she was trying And that in those moments when she was already frustrated and mad, knowing that it wasn't specific to maybe that situation or to the person, that it was her reaction that was upsetting her. Like, why couldn't I control how mad I was getting or why couldn't I control how upset that made me? So think about what you just said and all the empathy that is feeling Chelsea's feelings, trying to understand her perspective, really making sense of what's going on in her mind. Those are all the first three ingredients of empathy, you know, that you have in a huge way, right?

Yeah, I'm a two through and through. Yeah, there you go. But that's beautiful, right? So you can use these empathic things. And when you add the PDP model, you go, okay, here's the deal. For all of us, we used to be just in this state of being. We come out and now, oh, my God, it's a nightmare, right? Because now you have to work for a living.

You got to breathe. You got to eat, all this stuff. so for an eight just to go finish the eight up you know the idea of being vulnerable and needing people just take those two things you go back to this passage from being in the womb at one with the uterus and now you're out you are pissed off that you need other people you're pissed off that you're vulnerable now if you take that eight propensity of anger right that's focused outwardly without the empathy being built and now think about what happened to chet right and what happened to you and how close you were so you combine that propensity you likely had

and now that trauma and loss you had and the way the family didn't support each other and stay empathically connected to one another right when that happened and you can see where you did the best you could right to try to to deal with it that was your your eightness became your protective shield to the vulnerability and needing people so it's like an eight to the second power right right at 64 you're good at math very good you're a 64 exactly so it was an extreme version of an eight yes it's amazing i'm still alive okay so it's actually amazing brandon is still alive that's the amazing thing alive and thriving alive and throbbing okay nine is the peacemaker this sounds like the best number because they sound easygoing self-effacing type receptive

reassuring agreeable and complacent yeah so now we're still in from the enneagram point of view the gut type so okay so the eight not nine and one are gut types okay right so now that i don't know how that helps us with these really but anyway that's the enneagram term from our point of view you know it is the still the anger type it's an inward and outward focus of attention so it's kind of both and that's true of the nine and the six and the three whatever there's a pattern here but the point here is anger for a nine is the key emotion that should not be felt that's the way to think about it unlike the one who has anger driving in them inwardly yeah they got to get things done a certain way. Eight, the anger is expressed outwardly. The nine, it's anger that

should not be experienced. So they do everything they can to make sure the people around them are getting along, get along, get along. This is why it's called the peacemaker. And their vulnerability, just like with a two, and these are called lookalikes, just like the one and the three can kind of look alike and be hard to tease apart. The nine and the two can be lookalikes too. the difference is you know the nine does give up self-care yeah just like the two um but but their go-to thing is as anger so like when i've interviewed you know thousands of people in in large rooms i'll say you know how many of you have a go-to place of anger versus sadness versus fear over 90 percent of people say one of those is my go-to place so for a nine anger is the

thing whereas a two it's really the sadness so that's part of that helps you distinguish it the other thing is that a nine is really trying to constantly look at the large picture and they're always taking care of a whole group system whereas the two is more like one-on-one i'm going to really meet your needs and a lot of people are one-on-one that's another personality trait some people focus function great in groups and some people can only have one-on-one conversations exactly so and that's a whole nother way as we we can look at you can divide this again as who's a group person called social who's a one-on-one person like a relationship like this and who's a more you know what's sometimes in the enneagram system called self-preservation or

you know what's internally focused like a five can tend to be that way but you can have any of these nine numbers then be a group you can have a group nine you can have a one-on-one nine and you can have a self-preservation nine so that's a whole other layer of complexity yep in fact that way of dividing it we could have a whole nother conversation about that okay uh so the nine what's the downside of a nine is you give up your own needs um because you're trying to make everybody get along um the classic phrase about that is you know when you're packing for a trip you pack for everyone else in the house and then you go to the airport you forgot to pack your own luggage that's a nine right you know and and the upside is you can be an incredible mediator where you can walk

in a room and you can feel what's going on all around and has the whole system need to come to some kind of clear decision where everyone is getting a good way that they're all happy. So that's why it's called a peacemaker, you know, a mediator. And so each of these types, including the nine, when you're actualized, you can be a part of a group, part of your own life, your inner life, that's fantastic. So that's why we said there's none of them that are bad, but each of them have unique challenges called downsides or pitfalls, and then therefore a specific kind of growth edge for your type. And when you realize that, then the specificity of your internal growth can be so helpful because you go, okay, this is what I'm working on. So Brandon doesn't need to

work on growing more empathy. He needs to work on growing more self-care. You need to work on growing more empathy, and you've been doing that, and it's absolutely beautiful to see. Okay. Well, those are the nine numbers. Brandon, do you have any questions? I do. I have one final question. So now for anyone who's listened to this, who wants to try and self-assess, say they come down to two numbers. What is the way that someone would conclude what they actually are if they feel torn between two? Well, this is a great question, Brandon, because as a scientist and as a clinician, what I'm going to say is that many people have different elements of different numbers

So let's say you've come down to two and you're doing the assessment. Just live with it. Don't feel like you have to land in only one. And there's a reason for that. One is we don't have the research to say everyone's just one. We don't have any research for that. So if you find yourself in two, that's you. Great.

Look at the growth edges of both. That's a great question. What kind of research is there to back this up for people who may be listening and saying, oh, because, you know, when you told me about the Enneagram, I was like, is this astrology adjacent? Or is this like numerology or any of those things that I don't find a lot of weight in? And that's my own personal opinion. But what is the research behind all of this? So in a nutshell, it was an idea that was inspired by Ochausa and Naranjo, who came up with this system. They then started teaching it and people said, oh, that sounds about right with my personal experience.

Oh, sounds about right with my clinical experience. And then one of those students, Helen Palmer, with David Daniels, said, let's study it by having people get up on stage who've identified their types. And then they would just do these narratives, basically, this is the research, where there are incredibly similar patterns if you were an eight or a nine or a one or a two or a three. And you just saw this just by literally collecting thousands and thousands and thousands of stories in the narrative tradition. Then there have been a couple of surveys done of people who've volunteered for it where they found they fit into these patterns. But my worry about that as a scientist is those are people who are already interested in the Enneagram. So it could be that people uninterested in the Enneagram are uninterested because it doesn't match their experience and it's not relevant. So we need what's called epidemiological research to see if you could apply these questions.

Now, I, as a therapist with my clients, patients, you know, who don't come to me because I'm an Enneagram person because I'm not known by that at all, you know, so far it's been universally helpful to say, here's our PDP model. Do you fit somewhere in one of these nine, maybe all of the nine? Oh, I'm really these three. Okay, great. Oh, no, actually, I'm probably more of these two. And so it's always been helpful. So I think there's a there there. you know i just think the science needs to be doing epidemiology not just some people who

think it's cool and interesting and so we can ask these questions we actually have a wish to take these 600 twin pairs some are identical twins some are fraternal twins and then apply our model of the pdp which is inspired by the enneagram but as you can see it's different and then see are identical twins more likely to have the same type than fraternal twins which would be more like just siblings you know we have we're working like denise daniels and laura baker are genetics of personality experts and so we're going to try to really do the science of it it doesn't exist right now because the professional world of mental health has not embraced the enneagram it's really just a popular model um and you know there are lots of ways of talking about

the enneagram that are very unscientific that are people's opinions i think the enneagram and the narrative tradition is so useful because there it's just literally what's called naturalistic data. That is, you take thousands and thousands of people, hear their stories, and then you say, wow, something's going on here. We don't know exactly what, but something's going on. Great. Okay. Well, that's all very helpful to break down, a very easy breakdown. And you guys can go online and find more about this, or you can get that Enneagram book that I like, the David Daniels one, which kind of broke it down for me. It's a great thing to take away for a weekend with your family or, you know, with friends, and everybody can try and assess

which personality type they are, which is what we did in Mexico one weekend with eight girls. And we clung to this book like life rafts. And then, of course, we went away. I've never seen any of those girls since, so I have no idea how anybody's doing. But yeah, so thank you, Dan. Thanks for breaking down the Enneagram for us and the PDP model, your version, which is the PDP model. A pleasure. Right? And yeah, and that's it. That's all we've got for you today, guys. There you go. Go, go get your books and figure out what your fucking problem is well you can buy my book life will be the death of me is available in stores now the new york times number one best

seller thank you brendan and dan siegel has also written a lot of books so if you look him up um you can find a lot of books about mindfulness and adolescent brain development and blah blah blah and i have added stand-up dates i am doing stand-up in atlanta on june 27th montclair June 28th. Westbury, Long Island, June 29th. There are tickets still available for Westbury. St. Louis, Missouri, Minneapolis, Nashville, New Orleans, Brisbane, Australia, Sydney, Australia, and Melbourne, Australia. We will continue to add dates, but these are the latest dates. So if you want to see me do stand-up, you can go to LiveNation.com or ChelseaHandler.com. And we'll be back next week with my guest, who is Sean Hayes, who came on the road with me for my shows in

Chicago. Life Will Be the Death of Me is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I survived nine months in captivity, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files. Every week, I'm with survivors who lived through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions. Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I chose option B. I'm Julie Pinheiro and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first.

I'm on a mission to reclaim the word solita, trading the pity for possibility. Listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.